Sitting here with my beasts of chaos. It’s been this way for 3 editions of warhammer fantasy. They were always one of the last books and were “ok” for about 4-6 weeks before the new editions dropped. It’s kinda why I chose them. I can go all out and throw the kitchen sink at you and you still might win. It will be a grand old time
Being a beasts of chaos player, i do have to say that beasts dont deserve to be in the bottom 5, they are a great faction even now. However its true that you cant really expect to win a slapfight with most other factions, but we have other solutions, and having access to monsters are cheap as chips is an advantage
I’ve killed 3 things with Cygor rocks. The Ghorgon almost always fails me. But they do “hoof” things to death and kick over terrain pieces. The power comes form summoning new units and delivering heavy hitters e.g. 6 strong bullgor units to whatever needs to go. 20 ungor raiders have a great deal of back field threat with re-rolls and volume of attacks. BoC are a real sleeper faction. I just completed my 2k list and im excited for it.
@@Jonahhi True. Most of the BoC I've seen have a a couple Ghorgons and/or Cygors (heh, been collecting these for a while and have four now). I used to go with the horde route with lots of Gor and Ungor but they really sucked. Our LGS is doing a escalation league and my first 500 points are two units of three Bullgor (one with great axes, other with shields) , a Doombull with the Mutating Gnarlblade and a Chaos Spawn (Gavespawn). That witch elf altar thingy charged turn one (impressive at 20" range) and almost wiped out one of my units but I countered with the rest of my army and took it down; the -1 armor because he was close to my herdstone was key, as was using the +1 attack ability for the Chaos Spawn and Slaughter's Call from the Doombull. Also give your Doombull Eater of Heroes to reroll those 1s to hit from the Gnarlblade and watch him dish out 10 or 15 wounds.
As a nighthaunt player being ethereal and losing the +1 to save from all out defence and mystic shield really hurts. I just invested in a fyreslayers army and they have been really hurt too! Love the channel and the content! Keep up the good work! Watching in the uk x
I Also Have Night Haunt and Slayers.... Frankly, the only thing keeping Slayers off of lists like this is How Totaly Bonkers Hearthguard are lol... Even Magmadroths are Super Underwhelming in 3.0, they re Fantastic Horde killers But watching them try to fight other monsters is just sad.... Iv just been running all my Vulkites as Hearthguard and doing alight, sadly I can't find a single reason to bring Vulkites anymore.... Makes me sad. But Nighthaunt Unquestionably got it worse.... Though part of that was just because they were in a worse place before 3.0. Hexwraiths are the only Unit I can really justify anymore.... But even then they just don't do the damage of Similar Units..... I feel your Pain, good sir....
You forgot to mention that currently, RAW, when you use rally for Pinks, you get to also roll for all the blues and brims that died. So pretty easy to bring back all 10 pinks
The new citadel woods rules for sylvaneth are actually very good. The "can't see through your own wood" is obviously a mistake that will be written back over, and being able to put down 1 2 or 3 woods lets them fit and screen much easier.
Gloomspite Gitz badly need a new tomb that integrates spiders, gobs and trogs allowing for more interesting combinations. New models for gitz is key as well. Slaanesh is ridiculously overcosted and flimsy. Overall, good analysis.
Yeah I have no idea why we cannot mix and match, I live the araknarok it’s why I started the army and the first model I brought one year before even getting the rest AND YET they have silly little spider toys from WHF terrible models for the spider fang. Would it be too much for GW to make spider cultist stabba’s or something along those lines? I dunno maybe we are asking for too much from this company which decides to place trolls in the same army as goblins but make goblins unable to actually synergies with trolls due to keyword wizardry. Makes a very fun wacky army less enjoyable I don’t want to run around with hordes of black witch looking stabbas I want arachnarok, squiggz and trolls to be the main point of my army whislt the Stabbas act as an screening force absorbing attacks caping points etc
@@makeytgreatagain6256 Totally agree. Yeah I love the GSG lore and fantastic range of detailed models, but the keywords really restrictions ruin it. You can really only play one type (trog, squigs, gobs or spiders) to be somewhat competitive, which is annoying, restrictive and boring. Yeah gobs is tough to field, who wants to move and paint 200 goblins? The Spiderfangs arachnarok models are definitely one of my favorites too, but the rest of the spider models are very dated and limited. Guess we'll have to wait for the next GSG tome and hopefully some better rules and new models.
I have a friend that plays Tzeentch and it is simply oppressive to play against. My Ogre Gutbusters need major help. The games we played so far the game is essentially over as soon as we finish deployment. With that terrible -1 to be hit in melee that Tzeentch gets with all their other broken rules it kills any fun in the game.
My gitz really need a new book, every time I get my grot list worked out something else changes and our points go up. Their morale is something that needs tweaked as well
There's a bunch of things that the FAQ should have addressed, but who knows if/when they might. How Horrors interact with Rally, if Bastilladon saves work as in 2, Engine of the Gods priest or Priest, Lumineth Wizard units in Path to Glory, bunches of things. Hell, they really need to spell out that Ossiarch can't use the same command ability multiple times, because there was someone arguing that. What came up in last game, my Seraphon vs Sylvaneth, when I stomped the Awakened Wyldwoods, they lose the warscroll benefits. But, they're still "wyldwoods" (normal scenery rules), I assume. I also assume they're still "Awakened wyldwoods" for like, the spell that summons Dryads, since that's not a Faction Scenery Warscroll thing. It could use some clarification though, so there's not a discussion when it comes up at the table. People just assume their way is how it should work. I wonder how long FAQ updates will take.
Feels bad for Nighthaunt. Their errata really needs a few extra details due to consequences from some of the base rules changes. (namely how do the numerous +1 armor command abilities affect an entire army that is Ethereal...Re-rolls on armor? Re-rolls on Wards? ... anything?) Feels bad for Hedonites. I think they are over-costed as a result of their summoning. I think their summoning costs need to go up and points costs go down. Feels bad for Beasts of Chaos needing an overhaul and only getting a cursory glance during Broken Realms. (well...cursory glance by comparison to what they need) Not sure about Sylvaneth and Gloomspite. The squigs and troggs seem okay. Feels bad for Spiders though. While Idoneth aren't on the best list, I think they deserve an honorable mention. While their eels are finally heavily costed, the army itself still isn't bad (hell...eels even heavily costed are still a solid unit...same for sharks). Reavers are a bit better now. In fact, I'd say the army is still pretty solid simply due to its mechanics, even if some of their major units are no longer under-costed. Looking forward to the Orc and Stormcast Battletomes. Esp. the latter.
they got REALLY good at when morathi ascended... then became trash. a GREAT player i know got into the army and ended up GIVING the army away it was THAT bad.
My thoughts, in no particular order: Top 5: Lumineth Soulblight Seraphon Tzeentch (with archaon) Daughters of khaine Idoneth deepkin should be here too, but depends on the meta. Same with Sons of Behemat. 5 worst: Nighthaunt Beast of chaos (except that one list) Gloomspite (except trolls, trust me, they are above average) Sylvaneth (except if you have 250 IQ) Blades of khorne (unless 5 bloodthirsters)
Well they got hit hard with the changes and have one of the oldest battletome, so it's safe to say they will get a new battletome soon to balance them out.
Honestly I don't think we're down as bad as we were in 2.0. Not top table but with scenario being *more* relevant, really flexible movement comes in handy for scoring battle tactics and being able to get around and contest objectives. All-out-attack lets you goose Chainrasps to 3s/3s rerolling failed hits and 1s to wound, Mannfred being allied in is uh, real good, and Mortalis Terminexus is a pretty frigging solid spell paired with Reikenor. Still problems with damage projection, still struggle with high mortal wound output directed their way, but I think they have a tad more play than people give them credit for. Still want a new book, though :')
Completely new to AoS here, haven't touched fantasy since like 5th edition when the old world was still going strong. Just jumped back in, and Beasts of Chaos & Gloomspite Girz were two of my potential choices, so guess I dodged a bullet? I ended up settling on gut buster Ogors, a big change of pace from the dwarves I played as forever ago. The painting has been fun, looking forward to my first real games next weekend.
When I saw the brayherd shaman on the thumbnail I knew it wasn't on the good list. I still have fun playing them though. Fast as the wind and can summon.
From all I've seen people talk about online and in video with the changes to unit sizes I feel like certain units should have a "horde" keyword / rule that allows them to reinfoce once for free. Stuff like Grots, chainraps, clan rats seem almost pointless now. (Just finishing up my nightahunt project and It feels really bad having 80 Chainwraps haha.
im not sure if beasts of chaos is low tier or not but all im saying is ambushing a cygor (darkwalkers allegiance), 20 ungor raiders and a beastlord with bray trumpet is very fun and will often end with a dead enemy wizard or hero lol
I think you might be wrong about Sylvaneth in 3.0 they received a woods buff, tla buff, alarielle buff, have many monsters and can use save stacking tricks easily
I just started officially playing AoS and I started with a Path to Glory battle recently. I play Beast of Chaos and I can confirm it felt like I was going up against the top army when my opponent brought a Tzeench army. I was innocent on what pink horrors were and half my army got stuck on them while the other half of my army got wiped clean with a couple turns by like a couple flamers. I mean I still had fun and could have done better but man those mortal wounds really REALLY hurt. Though I’m kinda new so I can’t say much besides that one match and one practice match I had a few weeks back to learn the rules but yeah I can see why Tzeech is a very powerful army simply from a small 600 point match.
You deff got it wrong about sylvaneth in 3.0 they are really strong. Our local players are loving it. Between the new forest rules and enough acces to monsters allmost all the battlefield tactics are really easy to do and most battleplans feels solid. Enough trait. Lists with durthu and dryacha are winning vs lists they couldt beat in 2.0. I feel like you also missing a point in Soulblight. They are deff better then KO in this edition.
Bonereapers are easily bottom 5 in this edition until a new book is released. Majority of the new mechanics are either unusable by them or were originally a faction unique thing. The lack of a monster also hurts. The inability to juice up one unit with multiple command abilities ot to use the same ability on different troops heavily impacted them.
Love this analysis! I think 3e makes consistency high value, even more so in 2e. That’s why KO stays great even with point increases. It’s better to build armies that can do a lot of things well and the top tier 2e armies could do that and now can continue to do that. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Nighthaunt really have no pro through the new Rules and Archaon in Tzeentch is a Nightmare. Great Video. Thx. I try KO as my new Army in AoS III. Because they re easy too paint 😀
Curious as to where you think soulblight gravelords land in best and worst. I’ve played a few games as them now and still can’t gauge where they could be
Certainly. If I’m gonna make calls later though I think this baseline is important to establish. If I’m horribly wrong aswell it’ll give you all a chance to say I told you so.
I just saw this video and even more now the gloomspite Gitz are smack around. And that’s my main army. But if you play goblins you most likely play them because you like goblins in general.
Is cities of sigmar a good army to choose? I saw your old video on 5 best and worst armies to buy and cities of sigmar was on the 4th for worst, has that changed with this new version or are they still a pretty bad army to choose?
For me Cities are in uncertain times, with the Dawnbringer Crusades coming it’s thought that Cities of Sigmar may be getting replaced in the future soon.
Haven't watched yet but let me guess: 5 best. Slaves to darkness featuring tzeentch archaon. Morathi daughters list. Soulblight. Any order list featuring gotrek. Giants. 5 worst. OBR. Gitz. Beasts of chaos. Skaven. Slaanesh
You know KO boats are broken? Eg doesn't work. You can deploy inside as warscroll battlions have been removed. Additional, as boat rules don't talk about Defensible terrian, it's ambiguous if you can even garrison them still. Just trying to raise attention so gw FAQs it
One thing for sure, this game needs rebalancing... Oddly enough, Daughters of Khaine are listed as one of the best armies but you hardly ever see them on the tables during championship tournaments.
I would say only at the top end of competitive but that’s the nature of competitive, there’s always gonna be the good and the bad. Big reason for Daughters of Khaine before was always no one wants to buy or paint that many expensive models.
Always hard to do that kind of ratings. Agree 100% on the bottom of the barrel. For the top I think Deepkin outclass Seraphon, mostly because of the anti-shoot tech.
One of my friends has the flying goblins (Kharadon Overlords), he seems to have a lot of success with them ... I have not been sucked into the game yet. I think I will stay with more historical miniature games rather than fantasy.
Pretty much agree with all of this assuming no particular order. I do think there is a case for cities being higher than ko. I felt that bonereapers deserve a dishonorable mention for the bottom 5 but I don’t think they deserve to replace any there.
@@CinderfallGaming they do? Then weird they end up in the middle of rankings on most tournaments. To see a lumineth player win an even is as rare as to see beasts of chaos player to attend
@@CinderfallGaming he is one of the few then. Lumineth require high skill level in the game, and many people think putting up 60 archers on table will make them win :D
I wholly agree with the Nighthaunt perspective. It’s one of the biggest reasons why I believe the Nighthaunt will be representing Death in the rumored New Tome (with the other being Chaos Nurgle) this August. I think there will be minimum-unit base sizes changes, along with limits, and just general buffs to maintain the Nighthaunt idea: Hero-centric, trade-heavy hordes. To me, it always seemed like Nighthaunt played for the Damage Trades in order to come on on top of engagements and they lose that with their current identity. I’m looking forward to the Winter Updates so my Ossiarch Bonereapers’ keyword issue could be addressed (regarding Hekatos), another update on the Soulstealer Carrion Endless Spell (I just feel like there HAS to be something here, some kind of potential or combo that GW’s looking to unlock), and general mechanics for Relentless Discipline. OBR doesn’t belong to the Worst or Best Army list because our units are generally quite solid thanks to strong stats. I’m hoping for a more complete fulfillment of how OBR was marketed as “every unit, a Hero”, by having a Command Ability power for every unit. Also, I advocate for giving ranged-units a minimum-range circle so that they can’t just deal free damage at units that had to suffer huge casualties just to reach them in close-combat.
Sylvaneth 2nd worst army in AoS v3 really? You need more test against good Sylaneth's player in v3 , especially with Warsong bomb and new Alarielle's Metamorphosis.
Certainly not, 90% of what’s good and what’s not is speculation and prediction. However I do state this is up for change as the edition moves forward, and It’s certainly important to watch and allow views to change.
stormcast are getting a book in august (if gw's logistics hold up, i have my doubts), i don't think many people are putting a lot of effort into reviewing or analyzing them because it'll all change next month (making those fairly new videos irrelevant), i think cinderfall is right though (at the moment) they were somewhere in the middle before and not much has changed for them post errata, good arguments could be made in both directions, but with so many choices, individual builds is where you'd have to split hairs with them, and in a couple of weeks we'll have a whole bunch of new things to talk about.
Armies are only ever bottom of the pile for a little while. Soon enough you’ll have your armies on the up. Will say there’s something awesome about championing a weaker army and becoming a better player playing with the handicap.
Yeah the changes to modifiers really hurt shields. Why bother with cover when you still only get a 5+ save. You could argue that they will ignore rend 1, but a 5+ save isn't helping you stay in the fight. Then you need to consider that rend 1 is what most of the weapons with rend skaven will bring. With so many things having a 3+ save now, rend 1 is extremely underwhelming. Monsters also don't jive well with skaven. Sure a Verminlord sounds cool, they cost a lot and hurt your ability to bring more chaff to keep your guns and wizards safe.
the simple fix to all these problems is getting rid of two rules one the reinforcement rule needs to go and the second is the unit coherency rule of having to be with in 1" of two models if the unit is bigger than the 5 models, if it was 2" instead of one then you would have a better range of freedom and a more realistic coherency
I think Reinforcement points are perhaps one of the best things in the game now. The rule doesn’t need to go but some units need to change. Much the same with coherency.
The only thing I would change about the new coherency rule is to have it start applying at 7+ models, rather than at 6+. The current rule is really annyoing for a bunch of units that have 3 models as the base. Agreed on the reinforcement points. Just make the base unit size for the units that need higher model counts (like several Nighthaunt units) bigger. I think GW did just that with a few units in other armies in the new General's Handbook? Should have done that with Nighthaunt as well.
@@starslayer2438 I’d say at this point it’s better to have touched less with that than more, can always adjust for the better later. Everyone likes their army getting better no one likes it getting worse.
I don't play Nighthaunts. But it seems like the unit size is a problem that brings them down quite a bit and that could have been easily fixed/adjusted in the new GH. And to be clear: The limit to the number of reinforcements is fine. Prevents hordes from becoming too silly.
I give the reinforcements rule a year or by ghb 2022 before they change the rule and make it more broad or they remove it gamesworkshop is a model company and any rule that hurts those sale will be written out
it could be your newness to the game (you have no way of knowing what you don't know), but that is only temporary (we were all new players, at one time), other then units loosing their re-rolls to save (in the errata) they came out of it pretty well off, and in august, it'll all be rewritten. if at that point you're still disappointed, it could be your chosen playstyle paired with a faction that isn't right for you (know thy self), stormcast will likely always be a universal tool box army, jacks of all traits, masters of none, outside of their base armor saves and bravery (when comparing them with other faction's scrolls) there won't be a lot of things that jump off the page. stormcast has a large field to draw from (within their faction alone), they can build shooting lists, melee lists, prayer lists, magic lists, heavy and light cav, heavy and light infantry, infiltration (coming of the sides), paratroopers (dropping out of reserves) or any combination of the previous without having to go outside their faction, when you pair that with the ability to draw allies from almost any other faction in order (to plug holes), they become quite formidable. stormcast is one of the best places to start in AOS (imo), they have a huge range of models (available from gw and across the internet) many are packaged in bundles, in many cases you can get many of them at a reasonable cost (20% off gw prices or better), they can also be used in allegiance order, cities of sigmar, and as an ally in most order armies (should you choose to go down another path). playing them is a great way to see the base game of AOS run, they'll rarely outperform any other faction in one particular phase, but they have the ability to compete in them all (a boast only a handful of other factions can claim), above all else, stormcast excel at the blocking and tackling of the game. once you've played a dozen or so games you'll know if you'll want to play them or not (a plus), and if you decide to jump ship, it's very likely you'll know exactly where you want to land. chin up stormbrother, the sun is about to shine on us once again (everything will be new, next month), looking back, i honestly believe there's been no better time to be new, and be a stormcast player. if it doesn't work out, they could still be allies (if you choose to stay in order), a great second army (that new players could use to learn the game, before spending a penny on it, making it more likely they'll stick with it, more people to play against), and if you decide they're aren't for you, there's always people looking to buy stormcast (they a lot of us out there), you may not get back as much money as you'd like (the market is usually flooded), but if you decide they aren't for you, selling them will defray some of the cost of buying the army you do want to play (how much value do models that never leave the shelf have anyway). i'd stick around and play them till chistmas, by then we should have a much better idea of what they are, and where they fit into AOS 3.
Just pick wathever army you like because the rules change always, so what is considered week today might overpowered tomorrow. Also the battleplan has a huge influence , some armies simply do better on certain maps.
I've played multiple games online of 3.0, and this list should be reversed. The size table has taken away the KO range advantage that they had, this includes other range armies that favour shooting/magic. The new rule that prevents stacking command abilities, and removal of battlelions have effected all armies that relied on them, Daughters included. This list has very limited testing experience.
Just a video on my personal experience as mentioned. Atm the meta honestly doesn’t seem to have shifted much. Slaves have moved up certainly but wether into that top 5 I don’t know, Idoneth certainly dropped out of my top 5.
You left out THE best faction in AoS: Gotrek.
He handed my Gatekeeper Megagargant's ass to him... his poor shins and ankles were nothing but ground meat and bone chips. It was not pretty.
Hoping Nighthaunt gets a new battletome soon, I love their aesthetic.
Sitting here with my beasts of chaos. It’s been this way for 3 editions of warhammer fantasy. They were always one of the last books and were “ok” for about 4-6 weeks before the new editions dropped. It’s kinda why I chose them. I can go all out and throw the kitchen sink at you and you still might win. It will be a grand old time
They certainly have their ways to win and I think now more than ever beast only need a couple of tweaks and they’re in with a real shot.
Being a beasts of chaos player, i do have to say that beasts dont deserve to be in the bottom 5, they are a great faction even now. However its true that you cant really expect to win a slapfight with most other factions, but we have other solutions, and having access to monsters are cheap as chips is an advantage
I’ve killed 3 things with Cygor rocks. The Ghorgon almost always fails me. But they do “hoof” things to death and kick over terrain pieces. The power comes form summoning new units and delivering heavy hitters e.g. 6 strong bullgor units to whatever needs to go. 20 ungor raiders have a great deal of back field threat with re-rolls and volume of attacks. BoC are a real sleeper faction. I just completed my 2k list and im excited for it.
@@Jonahhi True. Most of the BoC I've seen have a a couple Ghorgons and/or Cygors (heh, been collecting these for a while and have four now).
I used to go with the horde route with lots of Gor and Ungor but they really sucked. Our LGS is doing a escalation league and my first 500 points are two units of three Bullgor (one with great axes, other with shields) , a Doombull with the Mutating Gnarlblade and a Chaos Spawn (Gavespawn). That witch elf altar thingy charged turn one (impressive at 20" range) and almost wiped out one of my units but I countered with the rest of my army and took it down; the -1 armor because he was close to my herdstone was key, as was using the +1 attack ability for the Chaos Spawn and Slaughter's Call from the Doombull.
Also give your Doombull Eater of Heroes to reroll those 1s to hit from the Gnarlblade and watch him dish out 10 or 15 wounds.
@@SuperEagle112 I just bought a Chimera because I stink at rolling dice and the breath weapon attack from the dragon head is brutal.
As a nighthaunt player being ethereal and losing the +1 to save from all out defence and mystic shield really hurts. I just invested in a fyreslayers army and they have been really hurt too! Love the channel and the content! Keep up the good work! Watching in the uk x
I Also Have Night Haunt and Slayers.... Frankly, the only thing keeping Slayers off of lists like this is How Totaly Bonkers Hearthguard are lol... Even Magmadroths are Super Underwhelming in 3.0, they re Fantastic Horde killers But watching them try to fight other monsters is just sad.... Iv just been running all my Vulkites as Hearthguard and doing alight, sadly I can't find a single reason to bring Vulkites anymore.... Makes me sad.
But Nighthaunt Unquestionably got it worse.... Though part of that was just because they were in a worse place before 3.0. Hexwraiths are the only Unit I can really justify anymore.... But even then they just don't do the damage of Similar Units..... I feel your Pain, good sir....
You forgot to mention that currently, RAW, when you use rally for Pinks, you get to also roll for all the blues and brims that died. So pretty easy to bring back all 10 pinks
But only Works if the Unit is not infight
@@damianone4404 Fall back on your turn and then use it on your opponents turn.
The new citadel woods rules for sylvaneth are actually very good. The "can't see through your own wood" is obviously a mistake that will be written back over, and being able to put down 1 2 or 3 woods lets them fit and screen much easier.
That isn't a mistake. It was like that in 2.0 too.
if you put them down as 3 woods, then you can look through the wood
Gloomspite Gitz badly need a new tomb that integrates spiders, gobs and trogs allowing for more interesting combinations. New models for gitz is key as well. Slaanesh is ridiculously overcosted and flimsy. Overall, good analysis.
Yeah I have no idea why we cannot mix and match, I live the araknarok it’s why I started the army and the first model I brought one year before even getting the rest AND YET they have silly little spider toys from WHF terrible models for the spider fang. Would it be too much for GW to make spider cultist stabba’s or something along those lines? I dunno maybe we are asking for too much from this company which decides to place trolls in the same army as goblins but make goblins unable to actually synergies with trolls due to keyword wizardry. Makes a very fun wacky army less enjoyable I don’t want to run around with hordes of black witch looking stabbas I want arachnarok, squiggz and trolls to be the main point of my army whislt the Stabbas act as an screening force absorbing attacks caping points etc
@@makeytgreatagain6256 Totally agree. Yeah I love the GSG lore and fantastic range of detailed models, but the keywords really restrictions ruin it. You can really only play one type (trog, squigs, gobs or spiders) to be somewhat competitive, which is annoying, restrictive and boring. Yeah gobs is tough to field, who wants to move and paint 200 goblins? The Spiderfangs arachnarok models are definitely one of my favorites too, but the rest of the spider models are very dated and limited. Guess we'll have to wait for the next GSG tome and hopefully some better rules and new models.
Don’t worry if your favourite army is bad. As long as you play them right, well and strategically, any army can be strong!
I have a friend that plays Tzeentch and it is simply oppressive to play against. My Ogre Gutbusters need major help. The games we played so far the game is essentially over as soon as we finish deployment. With that terrible -1 to be hit in melee that Tzeentch gets with all their other broken rules it kills any fun in the game.
My gitz really need a new book, every time I get my grot list worked out something else changes and our points go up. Their morale is something that needs tweaked as well
Yeah cause we can't heal our leaders in the hero phase :/
There's a bunch of things that the FAQ should have addressed, but who knows if/when they might. How Horrors interact with Rally, if Bastilladon saves work as in 2, Engine of the Gods priest or Priest, Lumineth Wizard units in Path to Glory, bunches of things. Hell, they really need to spell out that Ossiarch can't use the same command ability multiple times, because there was someone arguing that.
What came up in last game, my Seraphon vs Sylvaneth, when I stomped the Awakened Wyldwoods, they lose the warscroll benefits.
But, they're still "wyldwoods" (normal scenery rules), I assume. I also assume they're still "Awakened wyldwoods" for like, the spell that summons Dryads, since that's not a Faction Scenery Warscroll thing. It could use some clarification though, so there's not a discussion when it comes up at the table. People just assume their way is how it should work.
I wonder how long FAQ updates will take.
Feels bad for Nighthaunt. Their errata really needs a few extra details due to consequences from some of the base rules changes. (namely how do the numerous +1 armor command abilities affect an entire army that is Ethereal...Re-rolls on armor? Re-rolls on Wards? ... anything?)
Feels bad for Hedonites. I think they are over-costed as a result of their summoning. I think their summoning costs need to go up and points costs go down.
Feels bad for Beasts of Chaos needing an overhaul and only getting a cursory glance during Broken Realms. (well...cursory glance by comparison to what they need)
Not sure about Sylvaneth and Gloomspite. The squigs and troggs seem okay. Feels bad for Spiders though.
While Idoneth aren't on the best list, I think they deserve an honorable mention. While their eels are finally heavily costed, the army itself still isn't bad (hell...eels even heavily costed are still a solid unit...same for sharks). Reavers are a bit better now.
In fact, I'd say the army is still pretty solid simply due to its mechanics, even if some of their major units are no longer under-costed.
Looking forward to the Orc and Stormcast Battletomes. Esp. the latter.
As someone who just got into Hedonites of Slaanesh only for them to get absolutely dumped on by GW, I gotta say I'm pretty upset.
they got REALLY good at when morathi ascended... then became trash. a GREAT player i know got into the army and ended up GIVING the army away it was THAT bad.
My thoughts, in no particular order:
Top 5:
Lumineth
Soulblight
Seraphon
Tzeentch (with archaon)
Daughters of khaine
Idoneth deepkin should be here too, but depends on the meta. Same with Sons of Behemat.
5 worst:
Nighthaunt
Beast of chaos (except that one list)
Gloomspite (except trolls, trust me, they are above average)
Sylvaneth (except if you have 250 IQ)
Blades of khorne (unless 5 bloodthirsters)
Damn. Sad to see my ghostly Bois so low :(
Well they got hit hard with the changes and have one of the oldest battletome, so it's safe to say they will get a new battletome soon to balance them out.
Honestly I don't think we're down as bad as we were in 2.0. Not top table but with scenario being *more* relevant, really flexible movement comes in handy for scoring battle tactics and being able to get around and contest objectives. All-out-attack lets you goose Chainrasps to 3s/3s rerolling failed hits and 1s to wound, Mannfred being allied in is uh, real good, and Mortalis Terminexus is a pretty frigging solid spell paired with Reikenor.
Still problems with damage projection, still struggle with high mortal wound output directed their way, but I think they have a tad more play than people give them credit for.
Still want a new book, though :')
@@disposeable1 I think we'll get a new book but i think the main problem is no monsters
@@malokhash5352 yeah, with ya there >
Completely new to AoS here, haven't touched fantasy since like 5th edition when the old world was still going strong. Just jumped back in, and Beasts of Chaos & Gloomspite Girz were two of my potential choices, so guess I dodged a bullet?
I ended up settling on gut buster Ogors, a big change of pace from the dwarves I played as forever ago. The painting has been fun, looking forward to my first real games next weekend.
No army is ever down for ever in AoS the meta shifts so fast.
There something satisfying about winning with a worse off army though,
When I saw the brayherd shaman on the thumbnail I knew it wasn't on the good list. I still have fun playing them though. Fast as the wind and can summon.
DOK single best army, can score all the extra monster key word battle tactics while denying your opponent
From all I've seen people talk about online and in video with the changes to unit sizes I feel like certain units should have a "horde" keyword / rule that allows them to reinfoce once for free. Stuff like Grots, chainraps, clan rats seem almost pointless now. (Just finishing up my nightahunt project and It feels really bad having 80 Chainwraps haha.
I'm going to ask my opponents if they want to ignore the Reinforcement Points Rule for friendly games.
@@michaelblower7363 good idea honestly its the only way I'd play my nighthaunt army now
im not sure if beasts of chaos is low tier or not but all im saying is ambushing a cygor (darkwalkers allegiance), 20 ungor raiders and a beastlord with bray trumpet is very fun and will often end with a dead enemy wizard or hero lol
I have been looking for a video like this for a while now, thanks for making this🙏
I think you might be wrong about Sylvaneth in 3.0 they received a woods buff, tla buff, alarielle buff, have many monsters and can use save stacking tricks easily
I just started officially playing AoS and I started with a Path to Glory battle recently. I play Beast of Chaos and I can confirm it felt like I was going up against the top army when my opponent brought a Tzeench army. I was innocent on what pink horrors were and half my army got stuck on them while the other half of my army got wiped clean with a couple turns by like a couple flamers. I mean I still had fun and could have done better but man those mortal wounds really REALLY hurt. Though I’m kinda new so I can’t say much besides that one match and one practice match I had a few weeks back to learn the rules but yeah I can see why Tzeech is a very powerful army simply from a small 600 point match.
You deff got it wrong about sylvaneth in 3.0 they are really strong. Our local players are loving it. Between the new forest rules and enough acces to monsters allmost all the battlefield tactics are really easy to do and most battleplans feels solid. Enough trait. Lists with durthu and dryacha are winning vs lists they couldt beat in 2.0. I feel like you also missing a point in Soulblight. They are deff better then KO in this edition.
Yup, massive misreading of them. Sad really.
Good to hear Drycha is doing well, I've certainly wanted to build a list around her!
Bonereapers are easily bottom 5 in this edition until a new book is released. Majority of the new mechanics are either unusable by them or were originally a faction unique thing. The lack of a monster also hurts. The inability to juice up one unit with multiple command abilities ot to use the same ability on different troops heavily impacted them.
Love this analysis! I think 3e makes consistency high value, even more so in 2e. That’s why KO stays great even with point increases. It’s better to build armies that can do a lot of things well and the top tier 2e armies could do that and now can continue to do that. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I don't play them, but I feel bad for Hedonites. Would have been so easy to make them decent with points adjustments in the new General's Handbook...
I honestly do think points is all it is. They’ve got solid rules on scrolls just not good enough for the points your paying.
Makes me sad to see Sylvaneth so low, one of my favourite armies lore and design wise
I'm building a mostly Bullgor army with 2 Doombulls , a Great-Bray Shaman and 2 Ghorgons
Nighthaunt really have no pro through the new Rules and Archaon in Tzeentch is a Nightmare. Great Video. Thx. I try KO as my new Army in AoS III. Because they re easy too paint 😀
Was kinda hoping for a full ranking top to bottom but I'll take it
Curious as to where you think soulblight gravelords land in best and worst. I’ve played a few games as them now and still can’t gauge where they could be
I've only heard good things about them
Easy bottom 6
While it could be worse, I missed when my boney boys were in the top 5.
I was surprised not to see IDK or FEC in the lists. I'll let you guys decide which goes in which.
We won't know this for sure until more 3.0 books are out... This video should have a huge asterisk
Certainly. If I’m gonna make calls later though I think this baseline is important to establish. If I’m horribly wrong aswell it’ll give you all a chance to say I told you so.
I just saw this video and even more now the gloomspite Gitz are smack around. And that’s my main army. But if you play goblins you most likely play them because you like goblins in general.
Idoneth deepkin basically autowin on turn 3.
Is cities of sigmar a good army to choose?
I saw your old video on 5 best and worst armies to buy and cities of sigmar was on the 4th for worst, has that changed with this new version or are they still a pretty bad army to choose?
For me Cities are in uncertain times, with the Dawnbringer Crusades coming it’s thought that Cities of Sigmar may be getting replaced in the future soon.
Oof. Think I'll hold off getting into AOS if Slaanesh just are weak and unfun currently.
Haven't watched yet but let me guess: 5 best. Slaves to darkness featuring tzeentch archaon. Morathi daughters list. Soulblight. Any order list featuring gotrek. Giants.
5 worst. OBR. Gitz. Beasts of chaos. Skaven. Slaanesh
You know KO boats are broken? Eg doesn't work. You can deploy inside as warscroll battlions have been removed. Additional, as boat rules don't talk about Defensible terrian, it's ambiguous if you can even garrison them still. Just trying to raise attention so gw FAQs it
One thing for sure, this game needs rebalancing... Oddly enough, Daughters of Khaine are listed as one of the best armies but you hardly ever see them on the tables during championship tournaments.
I would say only at the top end of competitive but that’s the nature of competitive, there’s always gonna be the good and the bad.
Big reason for Daughters of Khaine before was always no one wants to buy or paint that many expensive models.
Always hard to do that kind of ratings. Agree 100% on the bottom of the barrel. For the top I think Deepkin outclass Seraphon, mostly because of the anti-shoot tech.
One of my friends has the flying goblins (Kharadon Overlords), he seems to have a lot of success with them ... I have not been sucked into the game yet.
I think I will stay with more historical miniature games rather than fantasy.
They are stunties not gobbos
@@josephskiles I'm sorry I really do not know the lore :))))
@@andraslibal it's no problem, we all start some where and I wasn't trying to insult you
we does beastclaw raiders/ mawtribes fit into this?
Pretty much agree with all of this assuming no particular order. I do think there is a case for cities being higher than ko. I felt that bonereapers deserve a dishonorable mention for the bottom 5 but I don’t think they deserve to replace any there.
Me a spooky boi player: :(
Me a spooky boi player with nagash in my list : :(
Skaven Pestilens…weez da best! Your doom is coming, man-things.
I disagree with Sylvaneth being a bottom 5 army
Be happily proved wrong. More than any the baseline list is sure to have some clangers.
Sylvaneth finished 7th with a 4/1 record at manicunian carnarge
This is more an AOS 2.0 rank than 3.0
Not sure about sylvaneth, they got buffs now
I trying to start my first AoS army with the Maggotkin of Nurgle. Where would you say they rank. Are they good, bad, or just kinda average?
They can be really strong, with an expensive demon in tow!
Have you seen a top tier lumineth tournament list? Most I’ve seen are really struggling dealing with the god hero’s especially archaon
40-60 sentinels deal with most things quite well
@@CinderfallGaming they do? Then weird they end up in the middle of rankings on most tournaments. To see a lumineth player win an even is as rare as to see beasts of chaos player to attend
@@jiridrapal7512 yep. Jack from Re-Rolling Ones is on quite a roll with Lumineth in 3.0
@@CinderfallGaming he is one of the few then. Lumineth require high skill level in the game, and many people think putting up 60 archers on table will make them win :D
@@jiridrapal7512 Lumineth are super strong, they’re just not super simple to play.
Great video!
Glad you enjoyed the video.
What is the state of ogors in 3e? Especially beastclaw?
Terrible
Why? Can you elaborate?
I wholly agree with the Nighthaunt perspective. It’s one of the biggest reasons why I believe the Nighthaunt will be representing Death in the rumored New Tome (with the other being Chaos Nurgle) this August. I think there will be minimum-unit base sizes changes, along with limits, and just general buffs to maintain the Nighthaunt idea: Hero-centric, trade-heavy hordes. To me, it always seemed like Nighthaunt played for the Damage Trades in order to come on on top of engagements and they lose that with their current identity.
I’m looking forward to the Winter Updates so my Ossiarch Bonereapers’ keyword issue could be addressed (regarding Hekatos), another update on the Soulstealer Carrion Endless Spell (I just feel like there HAS to be something here, some kind of potential or combo that GW’s looking to unlock), and general mechanics for Relentless Discipline. OBR doesn’t belong to the Worst or Best Army list because our units are generally quite solid thanks to strong stats. I’m hoping for a more complete fulfillment of how OBR was marketed as “every unit, a Hero”, by having a Command Ability power for every unit.
Also, I advocate for giving ranged-units a minimum-range circle so that they can’t just deal free damage at units that had to suffer huge casualties just to reach them in close-combat.
Sylvaneth 2nd worst army in AoS v3 really? You need more test against good Sylaneth's player in v3 , especially with Warsong bomb and new Alarielle's Metamorphosis.
What about Skaven
Sons of Behemat aren't one of the best??
Where is khorne in top 5 worst.
Honestly I don't feel nighthaunt belong in the list of worst they are definitely not a bad army by any stretch
Have no monsters so can't score much on battle tactics
Isn't it too early to tell the best or worst army?
Yes and No. For a detailled accurate meta list yes its way too soon but you can still do a list with predicitions
nope. once you've played this game enough you can do some theory crafting with some accuracy .
Certainly not, 90% of what’s good and what’s not is speculation and prediction. However I do state this is up for change as the edition moves forward, and It’s certainly important to watch and allow views to change.
Thanks for all responses, really helpfull
Gimme a new Nurgle battletome!!! Spread the rot
Did I miss stormcast? If it was missed that makes me listening to the end a waste of time. How could that be missed?
Stormcast at current don’t fit into either best or worst, and fit somewhere in the middle.
stormcast are getting a book in august (if gw's logistics hold up, i have my doubts), i don't think many people are putting a lot of effort into reviewing or analyzing them because it'll all change next month (making those fairly new videos irrelevant), i think cinderfall is right though (at the moment) they were somewhere in the middle before and not much has changed for them post errata, good arguments could be made in both directions, but with so many choices, individual builds is where you'd have to split hairs with them, and in a couple of weeks we'll have a whole bunch of new things to talk about.
great. both of my armies suck
Armies are only ever bottom of the pile for a little while. Soon enough you’ll have your armies on the up.
Will say there’s something awesome about championing a weaker army and becoming a better player playing with the handicap.
Skaven.
Yeah the changes to modifiers really hurt shields. Why bother with cover when you still only get a 5+ save. You could argue that they will ignore rend 1, but a 5+ save isn't helping you stay in the fight. Then you need to consider that rend 1 is what most of the weapons with rend skaven will bring. With so many things having a 3+ save now, rend 1 is extremely underwhelming. Monsters also don't jive well with skaven. Sure a Verminlord sounds cool, they cost a lot and hurt your ability to bring more chaff to keep your guns and wizards safe.
the simple fix to all these problems is getting rid of two rules one the reinforcement rule needs to go and the second is the unit coherency rule of having to be with in 1" of two models if the unit is bigger than the 5 models, if it was 2" instead of one then you would have a better range of freedom and a more realistic coherency
I think Reinforcement points are perhaps one of the best things in the game now. The rule doesn’t need to go but some units need to change. Much the same with coherency.
The only thing I would change about the new coherency rule is to have it start applying at 7+ models, rather than at 6+. The current rule is really annyoing for a bunch of units that have 3 models as the base.
Agreed on the reinforcement points. Just make the base unit size for the units that need higher model counts (like several Nighthaunt units) bigger. I think GW did just that with a few units in other armies in the new General's Handbook? Should have done that with Nighthaunt as well.
@@starslayer2438 I’d say at this point it’s better to have touched less with that than more, can always adjust for the better later.
Everyone likes their army getting better no one likes it getting worse.
I don't play Nighthaunts. But it seems like the unit size is a problem that brings them down quite a bit and that could have been easily fixed/adjusted in the new GH.
And to be clear: The limit to the number of reinforcements is fine. Prevents hordes from becoming too silly.
I give the reinforcements rule a year or by ghb 2022 before they change the rule and make it more broad or they remove it gamesworkshop is a model company and any rule that hurts those sale will be written out
I'm disappointed I just got into this game and chose Stormcast eternals.
Don’t be, I think they’re about to be on the rise with the new book very soon.
I played against the dudes in the new box and they seem great. I can’t wait to fight them after their buff in their battletome
it could be your newness to the game (you have no way of knowing what you don't know), but that is only temporary (we were all new players, at one time), other then units loosing their re-rolls to save (in the errata) they came out of it pretty well off, and in august, it'll all be rewritten.
if at that point you're still disappointed, it could be your chosen playstyle paired with a faction that isn't right for you (know thy self), stormcast will likely always be a universal tool box army, jacks of all traits, masters of none, outside of their base armor saves and bravery (when comparing them with other faction's scrolls) there won't be a lot of things that jump off the page.
stormcast has a large field to draw from (within their faction alone), they can build shooting lists, melee lists, prayer lists, magic lists, heavy and light cav, heavy and light infantry, infiltration (coming of the sides), paratroopers (dropping out of reserves) or any combination of the previous without having to go outside their faction, when you pair that with the ability to draw allies from almost any other faction in order (to plug holes), they become quite formidable.
stormcast is one of the best places to start in AOS (imo), they have a huge range of models (available from gw and across the internet) many are packaged in bundles, in many cases you can get many of them at a reasonable cost (20% off gw prices or better), they can also be used in allegiance order, cities of sigmar, and as an ally in most order armies (should you choose to go down another path). playing them is a great way to see the base game of AOS run, they'll rarely outperform any other faction in one particular phase, but they have the ability to compete in them all (a boast only a handful of other factions can claim), above all else, stormcast excel at the blocking and tackling of the game. once you've played a dozen or so games you'll know if you'll want to play them or not (a plus), and if you decide to jump ship, it's very likely you'll know exactly where you want to land.
chin up stormbrother, the sun is about to shine on us once again (everything will be new, next month), looking back, i honestly believe there's been no better time to be new, and be a stormcast player. if it doesn't work out, they could still be allies (if you choose to stay in order), a great second army (that new players could use to learn the game, before spending a penny on it, making it more likely they'll stick with it, more people to play against), and if you decide they're aren't for you, there's always people looking to buy stormcast (they a lot of us out there), you may not get back as much money as you'd like (the market is usually flooded), but if you decide they aren't for you, selling them will defray some of the cost of buying the army you do want to play (how much value do models that never leave the shelf have anyway). i'd stick around and play them till chistmas, by then we should have a much better idea of what they are, and where they fit into AOS 3.
Just pick wathever army you like because the rules change always, so what is considered week today might overpowered tomorrow.
Also the battleplan has a huge influence , some armies simply do better on certain maps.
SCE are a couple weeks away from being amazing.
Beasts dont deserve a place in bottom 5
Seems like not much has changed from 2.0 with this list, other than Gitz and Hedonites dropping.
I've played multiple games online of 3.0, and this list should be reversed. The size table has taken away the KO range advantage that they had, this includes other range armies that favour shooting/magic. The new rule that prevents stacking command abilities, and removal of battlelions have effected all armies that relied on them, Daughters included. This list has very limited testing experience.
You just took the armies that performed well in 2 and reeled them off. No serious thought or evidence of results. Disappointing.
Just a video on my personal experience as mentioned. Atm the meta honestly doesn’t seem to have shifted much. Slaves have moved up certainly but wether into that top 5 I don’t know, Idoneth certainly dropped out of my top 5.