Why Sign Language Was Banned in America | Otherwords
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- Опубликовано: 9 май 2024
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Sign Languages are just as linguistically valid and vibrant as spoken languages, and beneficial to learn for Deaf and hearing people. So why for decades was it illegal to teach them in American schools?
Otherwords is a PBS web series on Storied that digs deep into this quintessential human trait of language and fınds the fascinating, thought-provoking, and funny stories behind the words and sounds we take for granted. Incorporating the fıelds of biology, history, cultural studies, literature, and more, linguistics has something for everyone and offers a unique perspective on what it means to be human.
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When I was in my early twenties my first job out of college was working with children with special needs. I worked with a little girl who had autism and could not speak, so her mom wanted to try sign language. I learned sign language so I could teach her, and I can't tell you what a beautiful experience that was. She absolutely blossomed. She could finally communicate her wants, needs, emotions, and thoughts. I loved learning sign language and was able to work with some deaf children as well. I really do think the hearing miss out on a level of communication that could help all of us communicate better. I was able to communicate with the children in situations when speaking wasn't appropriate or in very loud environments. I would love to see ASL taught to all children.
Thank you for discussing this! I was just wondering, as an autistic person myself, how wonderful adding sign language learning to a neurodivergent person's life. It would be amazing for adding a layer of comprehension and visual processing.
@@BluetheRaccoon I imagine you could find a class, either online or in person. When I took my classes, they were offered free. That was a long time ago though. 😁
Thank you, you're a hero.
@@BluetheRaccoon Was just thinking this myself! As a fellow autistic person, I would say I talk with my hands a lot naturally, as Erica seems to do too! I've actually had basic conversations with people who speak a different language where we both just communicate with body language, pointing, etc. Its really wonderful! A French-Canadian woman and I told each other that we both had difficulty learning the other's language in school (the curricula of the time weren't that great for actual fluency, not sure how they are now), it was a short but very fulfilling conversation!
This is what I always wondered about - whether or not non verbal autistic kids should just be treated as if they're deaf and fully immersed in sign language. I wonder if a lot of their problems are actually caused by being deprived of language for such a long time, not from the actual autism itself.
Nicaraguan sign language is super interesting in that it was developed completely independently and spontaneously by children themselves without any adult intervention.
It even went through a generational evolution with more complex syntax being formulated over time by the children of the original kids who created it.
Probably deserves its own video about the phenomenon of emergence in communication.
I would love to hear more about that here.
ruclips.net/video/1xd3IdYXdow/видео.html
Interestingly, because of that evolution, I've seen it argued that the first "generation" of speakers of Nicaraguan Sign were speaking essentially something like a pidgin, and it was the second "generation" that were the first true native speakers, as they intuited the simple grammar and, through analogy, extended it naturally. It's fascinating to learn about, and wonder if this was similar to how the first languages came about!
Was it similar to how ASL went through a period of time where it was pretty much only being passed down from older kids to younger kids at deaf schools?
@@azelmamortlake4471 Not sure if it’s the same language and story because the podcast I heard it from has now unfortunately been lost in my history list somewhere, but I did hear about a researcher or something who came to observe a deaf school and the interesting thing to me was that originally it was actually the _younger_ kids developing the language, not the older kids. Since as mentioned in the video, below five years old is primarily when language is developed in that case I believe 4 years old was the key age for creating sign language and five was getting a bit old. So in that case perhaps the younger kids were teaching the older kids? Although I guess in later generations as the language got more established it probably would have switched around to the younger now older kids teaching the next batch of kids, but the podcast was mostly focused on the very initial beginnings of the language that the person observed so it didn’t cover that bit, or at least I don’t remember if it did, so I couldn’t tell you.
My daughter is so adhd that she was language delayed. We were lucky to get her into a developmental preschool with a speech pathologist when she was 2. The pathologist made us learn some ASL to help move her past her frustration at communicating. It worked so quickly we were floored. It had the added benefit of letting my newborn tell us what they needed before they were verbal. Shocked my aunt in law when my husband was able to see our baby ask for milk from across the room and tell me. She stood there saying "but how could you tell? They never made a sound"
I found a book about signing to hearing babies when my son was about 6 months old. He was limited by how many signs I could remember to teach him, but it allowed him to communicate way before he could speak. This was so helpful to both of us! I think all people should learn a signing language! It was interesting to hear about how adding sign can promote brain development in hearing individuals, too. He is a very strong analytical and visual thinker. I wonder one early signs helped develop his talent?
A lot of people i know who have learned a simplified (dutch) sign language use it with very young children, and children with down syndrome, and children with autism. A lot of times this is temporary, just until they have the skills to speak better.
It takes a lot of frustration away that would otherwise maybe turn into anger and violence.
Signing and speaking at the same time feels really natural, i wonder if it is something our ancestors used to do all the time. It also works really well when you try to communicate with animals, like horses and dogs, they are often more focused on the visual aspects of communication. Or when you are in a noisy place, you can sign from across the room to your friend that you want to go home, or that you are hungry or not feeling well, etc..
Great^^
I’m autistic and learning a handful of signs was such a helpful way to allow myself to communicate when I had non-verbal episodes! Gestural languages deserve so much respect
Amd that's why I want to learn sign language
same. really helps with communication with my wife when I'm overstimulated
Omg me too! I go nonverbal around new people or large groups so I sign or use a text to speech app. Life would be so much harder if I couldn't sign
Ah same! I dunno for 100% if I'm autistic ... but I do have non-verbal moments in high stress situations and sign language would help me so much
I have always had struggles with learning sign language, but I have experienced that simple gestures or body language tend to get basic messages across and I supplement that with written language to communicate more complex needs. It's also a more beneficial way of doing it for me, as a lot of people around me don't know sign language. So I'd still be able to communicate even when my voice won't work.
Another issue for me is that my community is from different countries. I have British friends, an American boyfriend and my family is mostly dutch with some distant family being from Australia, New Zealand (I hope I got the name right) and a handful of Asian countries. So even if I want to communicate through sign language with the people I see daily, that would be at least two or three different variations of sign language. And I already struggled with learning multiple spoken languages at once, so...
I am really glad that it is useful and helpful for other autistic people tho! It makes me smile that y'all have found a way to communicate with the people around you when spoken language is not possible at that time.
I know in Ireland, there was a gender split in Sign Language. There were two schools for the deaf in Dublin, one all-boys school and one all-girls school. This resulted in a communication divide between deaf men and deaf women that has only began to be amended in the last few decades. There is a essay on the topic called Sex differences in Irish Sign Language by Barbara LeMaster, and it is available online
Something similar happened in the US with racially segregated schools. Black ASL is a distinct dialect of ASL.
@@jpearce956 Did not know this. But as you explained it is understandable. 👋
That is so interesting (and, of course, very sad). Thank you for recommending this essay
That is one of the saddest things I’ve heard in a while
Sheesh. And we're actually pretending that language invented just yestrday is a GOOD thing, rather than creating mass amounts of pointless division. The professor clearly is very parochial and only considering this from some kind of "cultural enrichment" viewpoint, like it would be GOOD if every voting district and GENDER had their own little language and couldn't as effectively communicate ACROSS those borders.
That's exactly the US imperialst way of doing things. The alternative, is an actual promotion of rich culture like India or Indonesia, where a lingua franca and written text is EXPANDED over the freedom to speak your own, local language. This kind of thing is constantly discouraged among Spanish-speaking Americans, and turned into a victimhood talking point among the French Canadians who act like their local language is constantly under attack, when if anything they aren't beign too friendly with the Anglophones THEMSELVES.
There was a deaf kid in my class at school. He only knew a few words and phrases in sign language, and had to mostly rely on lip-reading. And yeah, he missed out on big chunks of conversations because of it, always asking us to slow down or repeat ourselves. We also had to become far more consciously aware of which direction we were facing, and what we were doing with our hands during conversations because if we turned our heads too much (which people who rely on audible speech only do _all_ the time) he could no longer track our lips nearly as accurately - same thing with our tendency to cover our mouths for various reasons. Even using gestures that were natural to us just talking where difficult because his focus would then be distracted by our hand movements and he stopped tracking our lips.
When asked why he never learned sign language, he explained that he actually _did_ - at first. His parents took him to a special school where they teach BSL - and his parents even took the same lessons because they wanted to learn the language too. Unfortunately they discovered that it was _far_ harder to learn as an adult, and they struggled massively. All the while their kid was picking it up at an amazing rate, being able to better _understand_ all the nuances of the language, like subtext and grammar. The gap between him and his parents was obviously getting bigger, and they decided to pull him out of the school and made him learn lip-reading instead, which then meant he ended up going to a regular "hearing" school instead. All because his parents didn't want him learning a language they couldn't understand or use, they felt it was hard enough trying to keep up with kids of today with their technology and apps etc - without adding a language to that barrier too. Plus they didn't like the idea he could say things, even right in front of them, that they would then miss - they thought it would promote him keeping secrets, or lying more, or being "naughty" right in front of them with them unable to discipline him because they would obviously not understand what he was saying. Kind of sad really, because I always felt having to rely on lip-reading was just holding him back from _really_ succeeding, both at school and his later life. I wonder how many other kids had/have parents that feel the same way? That same reluctance to let their kid learn sign-language out of fears of being "left out" or "left behind" in some way??
ESL? Did you mean ASL or maybe sign supported English (SSE)?
@@Cillana No I meant BSL (British Sign Language), the UK equivalent of ASL. Thank you for the correction, I missed that when checking for spelling errors before posting.
Fixed.
@@Cillana There are different versions of sign language for different countries and the signs can vary more regionally than spoken language because it evolves faster than spoken language.
There is also a universal sign language however it is learned specifically to attend international conferences for deaf people and sign language educators. Not all educators attend. My teacher for asl in high school had the honor. Not many learn international sign and she was one of them. Her husband and twin boys were all deaf. She was clear that this was an exception to the rule, however, as because of the barrier of understanding(because being hearing means you don’t think about some things and being deaf means they also do not consider some things because why would anyone if not for someone in there life who made them aware they needed to?) and communication barriers can destroy relationships at the best of times. Her boys were teenagers so I think they must have been doing pretty well.
Later in life I used it to help my stepson, who was nonverbal. So I taught him some signs and we had a hybridized way of ‘speaking’. Now he likes to talk and has the assurance there are other ways to communicate when he feels overwhelmed.
My two also learned more quickly with language because I taught them baby sign.
Sign language is rich and should be included in normal education like the video says.
I mean too many people don’t even know there are different sign languages much like any verbal language or even baby sign, which is simplified as babies and young children cannot do some of the more intricate signs. There are considerations for them in the form of an entire simplified version of the language for them. There is also a way to call signing when doing it in hearing order grammar rather than sign language grammar etc. for those who learned one first and simply cannot or struggle too much with learning both.
There are issues, most certainly, with deaf culture as much as any other(some people hold a stigma for people who do not learn deaf order or simply can’t process it for whatever reason similar to how hearing people treat people they deem not to be able to speak ‘properly’ as well) however it is a rich culture and it is many rich cultures. Even calling it ‘the deaf community’ is a vast oversimplification and lumps many communities all over the world together.
@AuroraLalune Sorry, TLDR right now, maybe later. Yes, I know there are different sign languages. I could have equally asked if they meant BSL (or another SL used in an English speaking country), but I made an assumption that the person I was replying to was an uneducated American who thought that all people from English speaking countries use the same sign language. I feel like an interest in linguistics (both spoken and signed) is not very common among my fellow Americans.
Sadge.
This was my mom's experience. She went to the school of deaf and was not allowed to sign. The intention was she could speak with hearing people. My mother and her friends covertly learned sign language behind the teacher's back. It's a crazy history.
Wrong. I wish manualism did not exist.
I’m hearing but I grew up in the Australian Deaf community and was accepted as culturally Deaf due to signing natively from birth to communicate with my brother. Since then I’ve expanded past Auslan (Australian Sign Language) and have learnt ISL, BSL, IS, Tactile Auslan, ASL, and CSL. It’s incredible what bridging the gap between languages can do. Sign languages are incredible languages and should be recognised for how important and valuable they are. They are ever evolving and hold so much history between the various accents per language.
Since you know so many variations, I'd love to ask, if I may, how widely do the dialects vary? I taught somewhere where the Education dept was trying to tout ASL as something that would magically give their majors the ability to communicate with people worldwide, when I knew differently
@@LindaC616although you asked this a year ago. I am also interested, how how much Australian and American Sign Language vary - are they equivalent to spoken English (just major variations but still understandable) or it is more varied than that.
Perhaps it is hard to the poster to explain
@@peetabrown5813Using the search string "signed languages around the world" should bring up a number of useful websites.
The Wikihow article "A Guide to Sign Languages Around the World" is an overview that lists a number of signed languages and sign systems, shows each sign language's signed alphabet or finger-spelling signs (used for unfamiliar proper names and for directly representing a word in the local spoken language), and sometimes mentions which signed languages are related to which. ASL, for instance, is part of the French Sign Language (LSF) family, as is Ukrainian Sign Language, and this can be seen in the similarities in their signed alphabets (though Ukrainian Sign Language has 33 spelling signs to ASL's 26). Australian Sign Language (Auslan), in contrast, is part of the British, Australian, and New Zealand Sign Languages (BANZSL) family, and its spelling signs don'tlook much like ASL's. At the end of the Wikihow article are a number of useful resources, including explanations of what signed languages are and are not, suggestions for self-study, and links to further information.
Sign languages are just as important as other languages and it's a shame that people will go as far as to denigrate sign languages as being "less complex" or having "less vocabulary" compared to spoken languages. And we can't ever equate language with speech.
Personally, if I was the mom of a deaf kid, I would give them an auditory implant but also teach them sign language so they could socialise with other deaf kids. It's just that acknowledge that most people do not speak sign language so it would be harder for them to navigate life if they could only communicate through that, plus, I love music and I would want them to be able to enjoy it too. Does that sound fair?
@@dork7546 I’m the mom of a deaf kid. The implant is more of a pain than help for many in the deaf community. Many who have them quit using them.
@@dork7546 also it depends on the type of hearing loss. The implant doesn’t work at all for some types.
@@dork7546 A cochlear implant doesn't give hearing back to a person. It does allow them to hear through stimulation of their auditory nerve, but the range of sounds that they can hear is limited (electrode doesn't cover entirety of cochlea) and won't sound as good compared to "normal hearing" people. Some people report the implant as sounding "robotic" at first.
Music will never sound good to a cochlear implant user for many reasons described above. And just because you and others enjoy music doesn't mean that they will also have a pleasurable experience.
@@AC58401 Okay, I didn't know this.
Thank you for this show. My daughter was born with a medical issue that would delay her ability to walk, if she could walk at all. I knew that delayed walking often led to delayed talking. I had to do something about that. We learned sign language together (basic signs). By the time she started school, she could walk (slowly), and talk (still needed speach theropy), but her language skils were at grade level -- actually a little higher. Yes, Sign Language is good for a lot of reasons.
the last several years there has been a young gal I have worked with from time to time with hearing issues. The room I was in from time to time was a safe place to let her guard down. Lovely fun gal and RUTHLESS in Scrabble! Lesson: Never underestimate a hearing challenged person!
@@DakotaCelt1 they’re not “hearing challenged” lol. Deaf isn’t a bad word. Hard of hearing isn’t a bad word. Disabled isn’t a bad word. By using different phrases to allude to these words, we add additional stigma and negative connotations even if we’re trying to be polite. You can go ahead and say deaf/HoH. That’s the accepted term. A lot of people don’t even consider it a disability, but disability isn’t a dirty word either.
My baby niece is learning some sign alongside verbal English. I can't understate how much easier it is to communicate with her. Even though she can't form sentences verbally she uses sign to communicate more fully. Having a 1 year old tell you exactly what they need is amazing.
Haha. My 1yo niece learned some baby sign. I've only ever seen her sign nurse because she was weaning and wanted it all the time, and more for more TV when screen time was over.
Great^^ especially is fairer as they don't even have the teeth to pronounce some words
See my comment.
My high school offered sign language as a second language credit.. and it was very popular. And sure For some it was just a place to slack off and talk since the teacher was deaf but for most it was an amazing learning experience.. I know my friends really liked learning how to sign and kept trying to practice even after high school so I they wouldn't forget this valuable skill
Though I think my community use to be very welcoming for those with hearing problems as my church for yrs had a mass with a sign language interpreter, they even signed the songs so the deaf could sing with the chorus
I also took ASL for my first year of language study. It was interesting, but we were often confused for the first few months whenever the teacher asked us a question while using ASL. It was 3 months in when she finally told us that eyebrows are lowered when asking a Wh- (+ how) question. The entire time, I thought she was angry at us. 🤣🤣
Unfortunately, my learning style prefers taking notes in class, and it's difficult to draw out these hand signs; especially when we can only use pen! In the end, I decided to learn Spanish for the next two years since it's easier for me to take notes on a spoken language, and my grades in ASL were bad.
However, a few years later I found myself using some of the basic sign language I learned in school when I went SCUBA diving with my dad. It was useful because you can't really speak while underwater. So I taught my dad the alphabet in ASL.
The one foreign language class offered at my high school was … ASL!
And I still use it.
I completely forgot words at a bookstore. Like, totally forgot for a moment just how to even talk (severe stress and sleep-deprivation does that!) And the one guy trying to help was the deaf employee… I started signing, and the way he just lit up! It was beautiful.
I get a few deaf customers in my store, and they (and their interpreter) have admitted they love visiting, because I am able to sign, albeit slowly and awkwardly, but I can do it. They always teach me new words, and I’m careful to keep my hands fully in view and face them when speak/signing. (My store sells board games and toys)
Our daughter has Down Syndrome and was always in a self-contained classroom. I feel that early in her school career, she could have been in some inclusive classes and gone much further academically. One of the main reasons she was held back was her lack of language skills. She was denied speech therapy at 6 years old knowing only one verbal word and no sign. None of the special education teachers in South Carolina are required to know any sign language. Our daughter did not get an adequate speech therapist, who was fluent in sign, until she was in high school.
That's so sad. I hope she flourishes in the future
so unfair. a friend's daughter had a baby with down syndrome around 1985 and he was taught asl when he was very young and did well with it. i'll bet autistic children would benefit, too. i suspect it would be good for all toddlers to learn it. sometimes we can tell people more with gestures than with words. i don't know asl, but seem to be able to communicate with pantomime with people who don't speak english and they can respond in kind.
That's really sad. No one believes in disabled kids and that really becomes a self fulfilled prophecy. No one believes in them so they don't put effort into teaching them anything, so they miss out on opportunities their peers get. No one learns things they aren't taught, but that doesn't mean they aren't smart or capable of doing things. I wish more people understood that
My condolences. Hopefully the world will take more cues from how Iceland has been handling down syndrome
We had some kids with down syndrome in my school when I was a kid. Many of them had trouble talking and used sign language. All us kids learned basic signs to be able to talk to them. (They were hearing just fine, they just struggled with speech.). It made us grow closer to, and understanding those kids. Typically abled people could gain so much by being interested in how the rest function and communicate.
A little late to the party here, but I wanted to share my story.
I was born practically deaf in my right ear. Growing up hard of hearing was tough enough, but ASL wasn't available in my town. I was the only kid that was hearing impaired. I was mute up until 6 years old, when I started putting the sounds together to form words. I taught myself to read lips watching documentaries and live-action stuff with closed captions. In school, I had to read my teachers' lips and learned to write really fast, then go home to figure out what everything meant. Sometimes, I was able to get every other word in class but it corrupted the message for sure. It wasn't until I got a doctor's note saying I need to sit at the front right desk in every classroom or I'd hear nothing. I was bullied pretty bad because other kids thought I was slow or weird for not talking for a while. But through hard work and determination, I overcame my obstacles and live a normal life. I use hearing aids now, but the old techniques still linger.
This episode really resonated with me and I appreciate the look into the deaf culture and deaf history! Thank you :)!
When I was a kid I took up learning to sign, it was a new way of learning and speaking. My sister and I sometimes talk in sign especially when we are far away or across from somewhere without needing to text or something. None of us are hearing nor speech impaired but it is useful especially when either of us are to sick to speak, especially back when we were younger.
We prefer to spell out words however...
Work great at parties or nightclubs with loud music
@@Fyrverk When I was in my 20's my buddies and I were bar hopping in Manhattan and we wandered into a place that had a nice crowd and played good music. After a few minutes we observed that nobody was speaking. At one point I leaned into one of my friends and said "I think we're in a deaf bar". After a couple drinks we moved on but before leaving a couple young ladies sat at the bar and one said the same exact thing I did to another. The Place was every bit as vibrant as any other place we went that night but in a different way.
I learned some ASL as a teen. Because I was impressed while observing two people openly have a private conversation in traffic - from separate vehicles, across two lanes, through closed windows, unaffected by construction noise. But I never got very good at sign - nobody I know can sign. I encounter maybe one stranger per year who uses it.
I’m watching this video whilst I take a break from setting up for my ASL club’s Halloween silent dinner. “Deaf people can do everything but hear.” And they are some of the nicest most patient people I’ve ever met because they are often not given that same patience from hearing people. Thank you for bringing awareness to the language and people I love. I’m taking my interpreting evaluation in a month.
Best if luck with the evaluation,Sure you will do amazing.
Best of luck on the evaluation!!! You got this!
@@meldebono4473 thank you!
@@crys_cornflakez Thank you!
You're absolutely right. They are beyond patient. Cause they really have to be. It's kinda humbling sometimes.
Throughout my life, I have little to no exposure to deaf or hard of hearing people until I met one a few months ago. I went to a local cafe to do work and found out the cashier was deaf. I was delighted to see a deaf person working a front-facing job but quickly realized that I didn't even know how to say thank you in sign language after I ordered my coffee. Truly, it was a learning moment for me. Sign language is really cool and I plan to learn Malaysian Sign Language next year!
This ep brought tears to my eyes.
I’m not deaf or know sign language but I am well aware of trying to fit uncomfortable or inconvenient truths within the paradigm of the dominant culture.
Someone that operates or behaves differently than the dominant culture doesn’t automatically make what they are doing incorrect. We shouldn’t try to force people different than us to conform either.
Growing up, my best friend's parents were severely hard of hearing and used English sign language. Having his mother explain to me how stupid it made her feel compared to ESL helped me understand that the hearing community really only understands what's easiest for them, with little ability to comprehend what would be best for the hard-of-hearing community or a willingness to learn from them directly.
Wait, there's an esl? I know BSL exists but I've never heard of another sign language that's close to english.
@@solsystem1342 I think ESL= English as a Second Language. American and British sign language is completely different, but British and Australian has some things in common. Not sure what they use in Canada.
Everyone looks at what's easiest for them. That's a normal human trait. Not nice, perhaps, but an essential human trait that we all share, hearing or not.
I've never heard of an English sign language. British sign language (BSL) is the standard here and is part of the BANZSL family with Auslan and NZSL. There's also Irish sign language and Northern Irish sign language (although I don't think that's widely used).
Some people also use SSE (Sign Supported English), which is BSL signs in English sentence order - often used by people who went deaf later in life and can be accompanied by spoken English. So I think your friend's parents probably used BSL or maybe SSE.
I really want to learn ASL... I'm okay with individual signs, but the grammar structure always confuses me! But I think I'm just not good at languages, because I also flunked 2 years of French LOL
I really love this video. I'm not deaf, but this video reminded me of a classmate who had a younger sister who was deaf. Helen, not real name, wasn't happy with her parents only wanting to do oralism and not learn sign language. My advice was for her and her sister learn sign language secretly on every chance they could. I found out years later that Helen and her sister followed that advice. I'm for learning both oralism and sign language
Oh god how parents have done this...Now that I see these I apriciate the parents even more who try to understand what their children actually needed and not focusing on anything else...
My god sign language should be banned for all public schools that's why I sue sign language. Deaf children learn Cued Speech and speak English instead if they wear cochlear implants or hearing aids. Sign language will not be obsolete in the future because hearing impairment is a new technology. Alexander Graham Bell is right. My deaf friend seemed so lonely because she was not even speaking English, but I talked with a hearing friend a lot.
I'm hard of hearing too.
I have worked with Deafblind students for six years. My ASL is, honestly, only good enough for me to carry on a conversation with a kindergartner. 😅 But it was initiated by members of my local Deaf community reaching out to me in friendship and kindness. Everything I know is because of them, and later because I started being assigned to students who used ASL for communication. The Deaf community is warm and open and welcoming to those interested in learning. And the language is gorgeous and (as an artist) so beautifully emotive and illustrative. Thank you so much for highlighting it, and its history and community, in this video. ☺️
Picking up beginner ASL is one of the best things I've ever done. Not only is it fun, fascinating and extremely useful, it also unlocked a whole part of myself that couldn't come out through language, a more open, spontaneous and free self. It does that for a lot of people, when I watch content by people who both speak and sign, I find their ASL personas tend to be way more open, less judgemental, more expressive, kinder.
ASL is not recommended. Speaking English only because hearing people don't know how to sign language What's the point?
This made me think about how here in Italy we have so many signs that we often communicate with both spoken word and hand gestures. I saw a video of a girl "singing" a song by just making hand gestures and mouthing the words and all of the Italians commented "i can undestand it even without even hearing the song". And since elementary school, as children we invented a signed alphabet, that although very simple and primitive, we could use if we were far away in class and couldn't talk to each other, kids still use it.
Perhaps that's why it was easier to understand the deaf people we interacted with: shared visual vocabulary.
I wonder why gestures are so ingrained in our culture. I think it's very cool.
The proximity of mutually unintelligible forms of Italic languages and trade. It creeped me out when I first saw the Italian-Americans here using their hands so much, as in my culture it's seen as losing your cool.
As s Sign language interpreter I have never enjoyed one of your videos more. You hit the nail on the head, names like Clerc and Gallaudet are household names in the Deaf community. Thank you so much for this video, it meant the world to me.
Thank you for what you do. My mom was also a sign language interpreter for over 20 years (she's been retired for a long time) for high school students, and prior to retiring she worked in an elementary school. I learned at a young age how important this is for the deaf community and also really appreciated this video. It also taught me some of the history I was unaware of.
@@mikev.2945 I am a retired sign language interpreter. Same as your Mom I worked in HS and then elementary. This video needs to be shared far and wide. We have been advocating this for years and years.
As someone who studied South African Sign Language at university, I'm so glad you made this video. There are so many misconceptions around this topic and the more awareness we can create about the harm that's been done to so many people and the rich cultures Deaf communities have developed around the world, the better the world will be.
Watching this after earning a BA in ASL and Deaf Studies makes me so happy. I'm hearing but I majored in ASL and I fell in love with Deaf culture. And since realizing I'm autistic I'm realizing just how much ASL and the Deaf community might have helped me without me realizing it. For example, I found that when I go non-verbal I instinctually start to sign (much to my partner's dismay as she can't understand me yet). During my years in college I finally felt safe to express myself and be more "animated" because that's just how ASL is. And I appreciate the bluntness many of my Deaf professors has, as clear communication is highly valued. Whereas a hearing person might dance around the subject and use euphemisms, a Deaf person would probably just say it outright. "Oh you know it's that time of the month" vs "I started my period". This video for me is basically a review of everything I had learned in college, so it's really exciting seeing it all explained in a single video that hopefully many people will see. And seeing the interpreter in the video made me super happy. I really wish there were more Deaf spaces. I remember going to Mozzeria in SanFrancisco before covid hit, unfortunately it closed (they have a food truck now though) so the only restaurant location is in DC near Gallaudet. I really hope that Deaf culture and signed languages continue to be more embraced by society. I'd do my BA all over again in a heart beat just to interact with my professors and with the culture again. I hope hearing people and Deaf people can work together to create more universally designed spaces, I hope ASL is taught in schools more, I hope that people can learn to embrace differences instead of forcing people to conform to what they think is "normal". Honestly, seeing this video kinda gives me some hope that things will get better.
When I started learning ASL in college, it was so immersive that it temporarily reprogrammed my mind and I started thinking and speaking in Subject Objective Verb. I sill do when I get tired. It seems so much more natural. I still give directions in sign even when I'm talking on the phone.
I study premodern intellectual history and had Latin training through my undergrad and postgraduate education. Latin also uses a subject, object, verb construction (usually).
In my undergrad I often would keep the original construction in my translations too often, so my professor once wrote on my quiz “accurate, but sounds like Yoda” 😂
I only really have the alphabet and numbers 1-10 memorized, but I remember working at an extended warranty company and when serial numbers were being exchanged, I was still signing the numbers and letters even tho the customers couldn’t see them. ^^;
I also regularly used said signs to remember what cigarettes to fetch for customers when I worked at a grocery store. And I continuously confuse friends when I use the ASL 3 sign instead of the usual 3 gesture everyone else uses. XD
@@thaumatomane I don't know why, so happy this makes me!
@@Caterfree10 I still give ASL style directions even when I'm on the phone to people. Cracks up whomever is standing next to me!
@@LaineyBug2020 😂💖
Sign language is certainly a useful form of communication, not just for the deaf who likely can't communicate without it, but just in general for when you don't want to make a sound.
That said, if we can give people back their senses that they either lost or never had, should we not try/give them that option?
I agree that giving back the sense of earning to someone who lost it is important because loosing one's sense can be devastating for some.
Let Deaf people decide if they really want to hear or not. i'm Deaf. i got CIs. and i quit using them. They're not for me. too much loud sounds. also Cis are expensive so. you'd be wasting lot of money.
@@blueskythefox1594 some of us weren't given the options or opportunities. I'm deaf and have been since childhood, but my parents are oralist and refused to not only let me learn sign language, but refused to let me have hearing aids when it would have benefited me most. I only got them after I'd left home, but struggled with the sign language aspects bc anyone Deaf refused to engage. I now also have APD and it's like adding insult to injury - what little I *can* hear, I can't understand. But I'm denied the chance to communicate bc ppl ignore me or are outright hostile. This goes for both hearing and Deaf communities.
(I am not attacking you personally, obviously, but keep in mind that your experience is not necessarily someone else's... I think they should be given a choice wherever possible, as I'm sure you'd agree. Where it's less clear-cut, like dealing with children, it's harder to say what should be done.)
@@kme I'm sorry about that. And yes i know, i should have mention that in my reply. My bad.
Yeah, I love sign language but this video almost makes it sound like deafness is an ideal.
My brother had a number of health issues & developmental delays as a baby, and so my mom learned some basic ASL and taught it to him so that he learned to sign before he could speak. We even went to a sign language school (regular public school, just with interpreters in every class & an emphasis on helping deaf & hh kids in particular) for the fist few years of elementary school. I remember getting in trouble for not paying attention in class because I was mesmerized by the interpreters.
The thing about me, though, is that I have a genetic disability that means I can't rotate my hands palm-up. Signing obviously requires you to use your hands palm-up quite a bit; thus I was told that I basically "sign with an accent" which required others to pay a bit more attention to my hands to figure out what I was saying. Sadly, I've lost most of my ASL except for the alphabet & a handful of random words, but I still love watching people use it and absolutely advocate for it being taught to everyone for the sake of accessibility, if nothing else.
I lived in a town with a school for the deaf and a lot of deaf people in my community. I took 3 years of sign language in high school. I have met so many deaf people and helped in situations.
My late mom taught preschool before she had me and had two girls in her class that were on the spectrum, non-verbal. Sign language was literally the only way my mom and her co-teacher could communicate with them.
And she taught some of it to me as I grew up, then I learned more of it on my own. I'm no expert, but I definitely could communicate in broken sign or spelling something out if need be.
I think the most frustrating thing I've ever heard about sign language is I was trying to flash gang signs. No, I was practicing the ABCs in sign language, and that ignorance hurt my brain.
Also, I cannot stand ableism. Deaf people cannot just 'learn' to hear, mute people cannot just 'learn' to speak, people unable to walk or move cannot just 'learn' to walk or move. People need to understand we need to help those who are different, and not force them to conform to the 'norm.'
This comment made me tear up,Thank you for everything you spoke of.Im sorry you lost your Mum,She sure raised a decent caring person sure she watches over you proudly.
She definitely was a very rare beacon of light and positivity in a place of negativity and darkness. I certainly hope the few good things she taught me carry on in me, and to my sister as well.
Thank you for your kind words, I do hope she is watching over my sibling and me even now, and can be proud of us.
I keep telling my family that whenever they get shirty with me bc I can't hear/understand. I can't suddenly magic up hearing abilities, it's not ever going to be any different, so they need to be more understanding. *sighs* They just don't get it...
I'm not hearing impaired, but I am physically disabled, so I completely understand. Those who have asked me to just 'get over it' are just so painfully ignorant.
We can't just magically create what we're lacking to make it easier on others. You have to meet us halfway, not expect us to suddenly overcome a physical or mental limitation at the snap of the fingers.
Same with us blind people.
We cannot just magically learn to see no matter what we want, or how hard we try, and it’s like saying to a blind person well, just learn to read print like everybody else.
It’s not going to happen, and I guess, with such advancement of technology, we forget that some people, no matter what just cannot learn to see, or hear or read or anything like that
Sign language should be encouraged as a form of learning. It's as vibrant and as expressive as spoken language.
Just think about someone you know who always makes a ton of hand gestures when speaking. It can elevate someone to be charismatic or even just fun to be around because you can see their excitement! Sign language users are just a master of their craft
I took three semesters of ASL at community college to satisfy my foreign language requirement, but it wasn't recognized as a "valid language" when I went to university
I think that the implants can be useful for deaf people, not necessarily just to communicate, but to have a better situational awareness. By that I mean earing fire alarm, trains, cars or someone coming behind you. Since we use mainly sound in our alarm, maybe it could help keeping deaf people safe
yeh, still cochlear implant isn't fun, we get headaches a lot and mostly about five to seven percent of children and one to three percent of adults will experience device failure, which can be categorized as a hard or soft failure. I had one old friend she had cochlear implant and later in her life when she turned 7 yrs old her surgery or cochlear implant rejected her body and its broken, she got second surgery and removed what's been left in her head and she doesnt use cochlear implant anymore. she's not regreting it and happy to be Deaf.
And that's the problem we are in hearing world, nobody recognize deaf people have issues we deal with such as fire alarm, trains ect...
@@farika_deaf2003 - And that is exactly why the technology should be pushed and advanced to allow the blind and the deaf to see and hear. The hearing implant is an old technology and there must be more done to improve it and to make it work better without crazy surgery to install it. For the reason you stated, trains planes automobiles alarms, we must strive to restore hearing to the deaf who choose to take it. Keep your sign language... Just live in peace and safety. My engineer friend was deaf and I had him teaching me sign language at my job every day. I had to work with him and it gave him great pleasure that I was interested to know how. I have not seen him in years. I hope he is doing well. I only lament not finishing learning from him and not having anyone to practice with.
@@KlodFather or we could create alarms that don't rely on just one of the senses like hearing? flashing lights or vibrations can also be used to communicate an emergency.
@@akweleymazaraelartey6522 - Yes and I have done this. I put a shaker in the floor of a house. Its like a subwoofer but it transfers subsonic sounds directly into the wood structure of a house for a theater sound system. These are great for signalling deaf quickly and can make multiple frequencies for different alarms or signals.
@@KlodFather this is why alarms often have flashing lights
I really wish more schools offer ASL here in the US. I never knew such a language existed until I met some of my cousins who were deaf (I was 11 or 12). I was astonished by they communicated with each other and their parents. A year ago, at my job I used to work at I had another accounted with a family who used sign languages and it was pretty difficult to communicate and so they had to point at which meal and drinks they wanted. No one at my job knew ASL either. Looking back now, I feel really bad that I was never able to communicate with any of them.
YES YES YES! My family is french canadian and have had to fight the health care system and educational system, as well as extended family, who don't understand why we want our HOH daughter to learn LSQ (a cousin of ASL, also descended from LSF), and have taken classes to keep up and are sending her to a french-LSQ-bilingual school. It's a struggle still, and every time my daughter takes off her hearing aids when it's too noisy and they're not helping, someone has to make a comment about us "ruining her chance at learning to be normal". I've seen the anger and pain of the older Deaf community members who didn't learn to sign until they were in high school or older, and missed out on decades of community and family and understanding and being understood. I will never understand how anyone can say a signed language is inferior, except if they've never once met or spoken to or read about a signing person in their own words.
Langue signée Quebecoise?
@@pauljordan4452 Langue des signes Québecoise, but close enough! :)
Friend of mine is home schooling and from the get go she has been teaching her daughter ASL. Neither of them have hearing issues; but my friend has always been VERY adamant that learning ASL is of huge importance, for her and for her daughter both. It's not just because they have friends who are hard of hearing either. I've always been super impressed with them for doing it. I have never tried to learn - to be honest I rarely even see anyone providing ASL "captions" at performances locally. It's becoming more and more common, and I'm seeing ASL in a lot of kids' educational programming right alongside Spanish, which I think is completely brilliant. (I live in the southeast USA, this IS a big deal for this place.)
I just wish I'd been granted the chance to learn such things back when I was a kid myself. I'll never be comfortable in ASL even if I try my hardest, I'm over 40 and frankly I'm probably losing brain cells faster than ever, hah! But I'm newly encouraged to give it a try and learn whatever I can!
That will help your brain as you age :)
One fun thing you can do with ASL - communicate long-distance without yelling. I'm learning it now in my 50s because I'm hard-of-hearing with implant and I've found myself in situations where my implant wasn't working (usually dead battery and spare wasn't available right away) and it would help to use ASL. If more emergency folks knew ASL, it'd help communicate with deaf victims.
I agree with the video that sign language is great.
However.
I think it's weird at 3:03 when she says only deaf people are making new languages. There are plenty of new languages being developed. Some are developed for entertainment, like Quenya and Klingon. Many others are developed as international languages, like Esperanto, Interlingua, and Toki Pona. There have even been people who grew up with Esperanto as their first language. They may not have as many users as, say, ASL, but they certainly have their own communities and cultures.
I suspect it's lack of exposure to the communities involved. Conlangs are considered a very niche thing, and are given as much side eye as as cosplay used to be.
Same reaction here - and not only conlangs have been added to the list, but some natural languages developed, too. This is a case of trying to give an argument to someone's opinion that maybe NOT invalidates it, but makes them seem vastly less reliable...
languages that I thought of were languages like Afrikaans and Jamaican Patois, which are not more than 500 years old
As usual, usa people overstating their case ... and discrediting their own cause in various degree in the process
@@Jinkypigs As usual, people of Asian heritage being racist as hell. How does it feel? How does presenting evidence that invalidates the claim made in the video discredit the very evidence being presented? Do you even science, bro?
In Japanese documentaries following the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami, it was pointed out that the deaf died at a disproportionately high rate. They couldn't hear the sirens or directions and had less preparations/training for disaster. The survivors had greater difficulty at retreat points, often because they didn't want to admit they are deaf.
Perhaps hearing is important after all.
@@CF-bg3jd ...What do you mean by that? How important hearing is irrelevant because they just can't.
@@varia2354
some just can't.
some can gain hearing (approximate) by getting a implant.
@@CF-bg3jd I think OP's point is "Look how our society is built around able-bodied people exclusively and does not include the deaf & the hard of hearing. Maybe we should do something about it."
@@justsomeguy335 That could get pretty expensive.
I think of oralism and sign language as being tools in a box. Pull out the tool that works best in the given situation. You can add to that writing things down or any other idea relative to getting an idea across. You may need to use multiple tools at once.
A cochlear implant is not the devil. Even if you don't end up understanding speech with it, if it just gives you the awareness of sound that's a huge benefit. Sound as a warning or for getting one's attention is something neither oralism nor sign language can offer.
oof you missed the point.............. I agree with your second paragraph 100% but it's really weird and unnatural to consider a wide group of possibly thousands of completely unrelated languages (sign languages) the same as a method for someone to understand what a speaking person is saying. sign languages are languages not just "tools in a box" like do you mean gestures?
@@jordanwardan7588 I try to communicate information to you. Since we cannot communicate telepathically, I need a tool. Communication tools are mutually agreed-upon symbols representing information. they are generally visual and audible because they must act at a distance. Tactile language obviously exists and even odor and taste-based languages ought to be possible, but they all have certain limitations.
Language is a tool that evolved to do this. Writing is also a tool. In fact, the two evolved for so long that extensive speciation has occurred. Hand gestures are a tool. Illustrations are a tool. Mathematics are a tool. Computer languages are tools. They are all languages. They are all means to an end and not ends themselves.
And yes - writing is a different language from speech in this formaluation. One can speak but not read a language, and the revrrse can be true. It is so useful that in most cases, the two coveolved. There are still spoken languages that have no native written equivalent.
Simple concepts are communicated simply. "Look at that." could be as simple as pointing a finger. OTOH, MacBeth doesn't work without a far more complicated language. ChatGPT is constructed from spectacularly complex strings of ones and zeroes.
@@caitlyncarvalho7637 Don't complain to me. I'm all in favor of eliminating deafness to the greatest degree possible. Some deaf people will never get full hearing, and some will never get any hearing. So we need a toolbox of techniques to help those people.
The problem is that some people have identified deafness as *who they are* rather than one aspect of life. Identity politics kicks in and people begin to behave stupidly.
@Caitlyn Carvalho In which case that is fine, and they deserve to be accommodated. It is just if it can be prevented or reversed without causing harm to the person, and they consent, then it should be done.
@fh5926, I agree. As a parent, our children are perfect, in our eyes. That doesn't mean if my child struggled with sight, I would deny them glasses or braille. Or if they struggled with mobility, I wouldn't get them a crutch, walker, wheelchair, etc. If a cochlear implant helped them to move through the world with a little more ease, why would I not utilize it?
As a parent, I could see how frustrated my children were as toddlers because they didn't yet have the words they needed! It's wonderful to see parents today teaching basic signs to hearing infants and finding that the child is calmer, happier, and more attentive. I can't help wondering if the difficulty of "the terrible twos" is simply the frustration and anxiety of a person having a complex interior life without being able to fully express what they need and feel!
My daughter is a teacher of deaf and hard of hearing students and so, an active part of the deaf community. When I attend church with her, *I* am the one whose ability to communicate is limited. Even with a very welcoming group and an interpreter beside me, I found myself contributing far less to the discussion; abbreviating what I shared to shorten the delay between responses. I didn't realize how challenging it was--and how frustrating!--until we were leaving and I found myself feeling unfulfilled and exhausted. It was eye-opening for me.
How wonderful it would be for everyone to be bilingual! And the unique dimensions of visual language put it at the top of the list. 😀
As a semi-verbal Autistic person, I wish that I had been taught ASL back when I was young enough to effectively learn it. ASL is primarily useful for deaf people - but I hear that there are also semi-verbal Autistic people who find it very useful as well when their power to speak fails them - and being semi-verbal Autistic myself, I wish I had that to fall back on.
Learning a language as an adult is harder but still doable, also there are AAC apps and devices made for autistic people
@@screwyourhandle - Yes - it is _technically_ doable - but “harder” means it takes more spoons - and when you are _already_ struggling with not having enough spoons - this can be enough to make language learning effectively impossible even if not technically so.
Not to mention that if your funds are low, you probably can’t afford to take a proper _class_ on a new language - and will be stuck with cheaper alternatives that make it even _more_ difficult. Trust me - I looked into ASL classes in my area - and they are not in my budget.
So in short - technically doable doesn’t mean actually doable. And just in case you are thinking of responding with something ableist like “If it is important enough to you” - please don’t.
@@RedAngelSophia some of the free videos available on RUclips are as good as any class on ASL, if you don't NEED personal contact to learn, and of course some people do.
I've learned a sign language (not ASL, as I wasn't American at that point) by having signed conversations with myself in the mirror and using RUclips videos.
My autistic problem wasn't verbality, but social interaction, so it was close to impossible for me to attend actual classes even if I could've afforded them.
Ofc I understand what you mean about some things being/feeling impossible, been there, so this comment is not about not trying enough. It's about hope that there's a way.
Wait. There have been multiple videos on this channel and other PBS channels telling us about the development of new languages, words, creoles, etc. There absolutely have been new spoken languages in the last 500 years.
I learned some sign back in the early 1980s. I learned because I was working with a deaf lady. However, as hard as I tried, and I really did try, I couldn't really become fluent in ASL any more than I had become fluent in any of the other languages I had tried to learn. It is the same problem as I have with grammar in English. Because English is the language I grew up with, I have a sort of 'instinct' of the correct grammar, but I can't say why I know that. Honestly, it is also the same as when they put letters in math that won't be solved into a 'real' number. I call it a language learning disability.
I mean, most people can't learn languages fluently as an adult or at least, not without an accent.
@@solsystem1342 I couldn't do it when I was a kid either
Yes there is a language learning disability. I have number disability, discalculia.
I have the same problem. No matter how hard I try to learn, there's a block at some point. I actually asked a friend of mine about this and she said what you did - that some ppl just instinctively know it (grammar) without being taught, so when they go through it in another language, I'm like... well, idek it in English, much less anything else. How am I supposed to do this? *sighs* But nobody has time to go thru everything like that, right?
@@kme yeah, and at this point in my life, I don't have time to waste on things like trying to learn another language since I've failed so spectacularly in the past.
3:20. I gotta disagree with this. Vocal languages aren't developed out of the either, they grow, change, and separate into different dialects and then eventually different languages.
American English is distinctly different than England English, which is distinctly different from Australian English. All three should be considered separate dialects, as while communication between them isn't supremely difficult it does have challenges. As some words hold different meanings, and some words just don't exist one one of the languages while existing in the others. That's not even including the differences in "slang"(where languages start changing as some slang is picked up by the majority of a population), or in idioms or phatic language.
Languages have clearly changed and become different, all over the world, in the past 500 years.
I don't think you understood the point. She's specifically talking about the invention of entire new languages, not minor changes in currently existing ones. When it comes to spoken languages, we haven't been coming up with new ones from older ones in a long time. The evolution of spoken languages has slowed down like our own biological evolution, but signers have been making new sign languages in this time. I'm extremely confident that this is what she was talking about
I work with a deaf kid, and he busts his rear and kills it! It’s so cool to see his ways of expressing himself, and most of my location are trying to learn some ASL to help cater to him a bit more. It’s amazing🙏🏻❤️
I wish asl was taught, it honestly seems so fun and useful. Even as a hearing person. There's time when i don't feel like speaking.. AND i have a quiet voice.. so it would be nice to not have to rely only on my voice to be heard. Id like to learn it now tbh.
The problem with ASL being taught mandatory, is that adding new subjects is hard, both logistically and politically, and ASL is not either the five most used languages in the us nor is the biggest community that can't fully communicate in English.
So that adds dilemmas there.
The only real exposure to the deaf community I ever had was when I was living in Kansas, especially Olathe, for a couple of years. There was a really good deaf school there but the deaf community hated it because that school was teaching "signed exact English" which is a completely different language to ASL, at least when I was living there that school was still teaching it, though it was almost 20 years ago though.
Ew, why would you try and do that? English sucks as a sign language. It's got way too many extraneous words that could be absorbed into another sign to get the same meaning.
Yeah, S.E.E. is like teaching students to replace each word of an English sentence with a Chinese translation, and calling the result "teaching Chinese".
Thank you so much for covering sign language, its history in America, and Deaf culture! I am a Deaf Education graduate student at Gallaudet and am deeply passionate about language access for deaf children. This video covers so many topics that I have tried to explain to family, friends, and even strangers on airplanes. Most folks seem interested in learning about sign language and deaf children's rights when they start to hear about it. This video is going at the top of my resources to pass along to folks who want more information.
My daughter receives speech therapy covered by insurance. The therapists are teaching her to use an app on the iPad with buttons of words (with pictures) to choose from and to try to make sentences. But I will say that so far we’ve discovered that it is severely limited. Many words aren’t there. We can make our own word buttons (it’s not very convenient) as well as select the keyboard to type out words but it is very in efficient because we would have to make so many and each one involved choosing a picture, adding the correct pronunciation etc.. . I think the reason that therapists choose this route is for the hearing family members / acquaintances benefit rather than the child. I have not been able to find a speech therapist that uses asl to assist my daughter in learning communication.
That's terribly sad to hear for your daughter. Of course, it's never too late. Depending on your state there are programs to help coordinate for families to learn sign language together and provide Deaf mentors to Deaf/HoH children. It's great for language exposure, as well as building social skills and modeling what successful Deaf adults look like. In my state (NH) these programs are state funded.
I suggest reaching out to any local interpreter referral agency or state chapter of the National Association of the Deaf (NAD) to see if they can point you in a direction, if that is something you would like to pursue. Even if the therapists themselves don't use sign language, you can have them request an interpreter to be present for her sessions
Well you did something but please learn to sign anyway you can. Don’t wait for the state. There’s so much free resources and no excuses for not learning to sign. I’m saying to motivate not criticise. Don’t give money to speech therapist who is incompetence if they try helping deaf children need to sign. ♥️
i learned the ASL alphabet when i was a kid bc there was a classmate that was hard of healing and i still try to be cognizant of basic things like finger spelling, singing "hello" and "thank you" and words here and there and it wouldve been so much better if i had a more comprehensive education in it bc its helpful to be inclusive but also it just seems like such a great language to learn.
A few years after my children were born "Baby Sign-language" started to be a popular thing, so we never tried it with them. However, when we started having grand kids I bought "Baby Sign-Language" type products for them. (All about two years apart, so bought different tapes/books.) None of them learned "a-lot" of signs or a full language, but! They all learned some symbols, and watching them communicate before talking was amazing and worth while, I think. ("Potty", "Hungry", "Pain", "Happy", "Sad".)
As always thank you so very much for the video.
(Now on to the survey.)
LMAO nobody says baby French or baby Spanish. It's just ASL.
@@ThemboYouThemboThey No, baby sign language and ASL are different. Baby sign language may adopt some signs from ASL, but a lot of the signs are unique to baby sign language. Unlike ASL, baby sign language doesn’t use proper grammar/sentences. Instead of the baby signing “I am hungry” or “I would like some food”, they are only taught to sign “hungry”.
@@teddscaut493 'Baby sign language may adopt some signs from ASL, but a lot of the signs are unique to baby sign language. '
Uhh no. All signs hungry, mom, dad, milk and everything else comes from ASL. They are ASL signs therefore it is still ASL.
@@teddscaut493 'Instead of the baby signing “I am hungry” or “I would like some food”, they are only taught to sign “hungry”.' Sounds a lot like what babies do in English🤔
But I don't see anyone saying baby English.
@@teddscaut493 Now that I think about it you're not wrong about the ASL grammar thing. And that's because all the one-word signs are not exclusive to ASL it's also used in PSE and SEE. I'm going to correct myself and say it's just sign language. Saying one word doesn't make it a baby thing. It's just a word in sign language. Not even exclusive to adults either. For example, person 1: you ok? person 2: tired, or person 1: You cranky? Person 2: Period.
Auslan is the Australian sign language.
I'm a hearing person who has an acquired brain injury that is starting to interfere with my ability to understand speech and to generate spontaneous speech. BUT I am still able to gesture, and understand gestures. So, off to learn more Auslan
I absolutely love the fact that this is the first video RUclips gave me form this channel, this s a very eye opening video to me. I had no idea about any of this at all.
Also I'm really surprised this is a PBS channel, cuz I grew up watching PBS Kids on TV so it's absolutely awesome getting recommended a PBS channel!! 💖😁💕
I just started learning ASL 10 weeks ago and I already prefer it to speaking. I find it easier as a more visual person to translate my thoughts into signs rather than spoken words. I also love learning about Deaf culture. It's definitely something I think more people should learn!
I really wish we could all be taught signing alongside spoken words as universally as possible, it's super intrinsic to humanity and we have so much to undo the squashing of its general usage.
Wow, this was fantastic. Thank you so much! I would have to loved to see some about indigenous signed languages as well (which sadly have some pretty tragic stories as well), since it’s hard for me to place some of these moments in relative history.
ASL should be taught alongside spoken English at the earliest possible age to all American children, both deaf and hearing. Not only is sign language very useful to hearing people when in loud environments or across distances too far for hearing but not seeing, but it also has the cognitive bonuses mentioned, and such an education would probably lead to regular usage among hearing people, which would shrink the social gap between the deaf and the hearing.
I think Sign Language should be a requirement in schools. Not only are there cognitive advantages, it's also helps with hearing people who have speech delays and disorders. I want a world where a deaf person can go into a restaurant and sign what they want and have all the staff to be able to respond with sign.
Even for hearing folks, it isn't that odd of an occurrence for us to be in a situation where it is either impolite or impossible because of the environment to clearly communicate vocally. I know some deaf people. I've picked up a little, but I need to be more disciplined at trying to learn ASL.
Or just write your order on a napkin and spend valuable school-time learing STEM instead of accomodating an ever decreasing 5% of the world population.
@@TerrorTerros or be intelligent and learn another language.
@@mommyofkittens4809 Better off learning mandarin or Spanish in that case.
@@TerrorTerros mandarin and Spanish aren't nearly as universal as sign.
I really wish this video also included the variety of *American Indian Sign Languages (AISL)* that are already present and common in the Americas long before colonization, as well as *Black American Sign Language (BASL)* that exist alongside American Sign Language (ASL) in later years.
I am currently learning ASL with a workshop group on Facebook. I’ve been interested since I was 12, but I’ve never been able to take classes. I am thankful for my workshop group. I’m learning so many new signs and gaining confidence.
As a dyslixic person I feel this. Rather then just spell a word teachers would sound out a word to "aid" my learning as that is the "proper" means of learning to spell. My brain is not wired for that I will never learn that way. So the history of forcing kids to copy sounds they can't hear feels like someone went into my nightmares and forced them on others. I have never met a deaf person and no idea if my learnig disablity would make sign language harder but now I just want to try and learn.
There is a 'Cold Case' (TV show) episode about this. It was about boy at a school of Deaf teenagers.
It was really beautiful, him sharing the way he perceived the world.
Our culture has done some horrible things based on the idea of helping others 'fit in' :(
I don’t think it’s about “fixing” anyone. I think it’s about allowing deaf people to be able to have relationships with peers outside of those who are also deaf, hearing-impaired or able to pick up sign-language. Learning another language is not easy and while learning one for you friend is admirable, for most adults and kids it’s hard to make connections and develop friendships in the first place when you can’t communicate.
I know this very well, I have a deaf cousin. He’s older than me and because I’ve never been able to communicate with him I’ve never had any relationship with him. I’ve never had a conversation with him, even when we’ve been visiting our grandparents at the same time. He can read lips so he understand me sort of but I can’t understand him. My mother told me she tried to learn sign language when he was little but he was learning it faster than she was and even she just couldn’t keep up anymore. None of the adults ever tried to teach me or translate for me so we just grew up as strangers.
These kids won’t be limited to who they can talk to and that’s something to celebrate. That being said, Cochlear implants do not work for all deaf people. There are various causes for deafness and for some people like my cousin, Cochlear implants made no difference. There will always be a need for sign language especially for the mute.
I said something similar earlier. I think the lady in the video is right. It shouldn't be either or. Both is best so that kids have all the tools to be the most successful in life and relationships!
To me, it's a safety thing. There are situations where being able to hear can be helpful in many situations, but if something happens to their hearing aids/cochlear implants, they can still communicate.
What if a person is missing a limb? Sign language is all s language and just like no one will learn every language some can't really pick up and stick with sign language especially if they have no deaf associates. I think both approaches should be used when possible. But your story illustrates the real life difficultly of learning to sign for those who can hear just as they may have trouble with learning a new language.
Maybe it should be an language option in school.
A major draw back of cochlear implants for children, especially autistic kids, is that they tend to put rocks or other strange things in their ear- because the world is too loud. I went to school with a boy who was constantly being taken to the hospital for that, I'd watch him shove pebbles in his ear and get whisked away by the teachers aids. I'm pretty sure he knew sign language, but no one else did, the school didn't have the time to add it to the curriculum. Nor did it seem reasonable when only one of the 2,000 students in the whole school was def.
This is not any argument. I personally can't sign because of physical and cognitive impairments, can't use my hands well enough, difficulty with visual processing, poor vision to begin with, and can barely remember how to speak english (my native and only fluent language)
@@yeetghostrat can't the loudness be adjusted?
I'm profoundly hearing challenged (I prefer not to used impaired) and I'm grateful for relatives encouraging me to read as it opened a world of curiosity. Where my great-aunt and paternal grandparents succeeded in teaching me life skills, the world and humanity, that is where the public school I went to failed. I was not allowed to use ASL and when I did, I was beaten by the teacher and the principal. Sadly, it was a common practice in some rural schools in the 70s and 80s. I secretly continued to learn what I could of ASL but I lacked any peers who would do it with me. To this day it is lacking but I can understand some of the slang. I wish more educators, vloggers, and documentarians would use CC in their presentations. A few educators I've encountered in recent years said CC would damage the other kids. One thing I learned from a research project and it was unrelated to the research question was the number of people in my focus group who learned English through CC. CC does not damage but it enhances. Its not perfect but it is a good tool. ASL, I wish I knew more and was more competent but I live in area of the country that punishes and isolates those with disabilities. I'm hopeful that someday it will be a more welcoming and better world.
BTW, ASL has a beautiful collection of swear words.
Definitely on board with the idea that signed languages are just as valid, and that it would be great if more people learned and used them. On the other hand, this video seems to imply the only advantage of hearing is communicating with other people. Let's keep researching the heck out of those implants I say, why deprive future kids of hearing a mourning dove's call, a singer's voice, the sound of rain, a shout of warning as a speeding vehicle approaches...
I got that sense too. Not being able to hear does have disadvantages, just like being blind or lame has disadvantages. While there should be systems in place to best help those with these disadvantages should science not also try what they can to give the ability to hear, see or walk back?
Reading all the comments, I thought I was the only one who thought it was crazy when she said the deaf community thinks implants are fixing what isn’t broken. We can acknowledge the culture and complexity that the deaf community has without being unrealistic. It is broken to not be able to hear and there’s no reason not to fix it with the amazing medical advancements developed if and when we can. It’s not like hearing people can’t learn and understand sign language. Implants are everything to gain and nothing to lose.
@@kendraressler4497 I love how you put lame in the list as well.
@@penmaster003 I think you perhaps are unaware of the issues surrounding cochlear implants. When discussing implants in regards to pre lingual deaf there are many factors. They are not a magic fix for starters, statistics show they only work perfectly for 15%, 15% completely fail and 70 % have varying success. They are expensive and that's for life, think of any computer that needs constant upgrades and repairs. Learning to use an implant takes years, and often children spend hours learning to listen and speak to the detriment of developing a rich language. This is just a few issues. It is a complex situation.
@@sharonjones7929 I know they aren’t magic and of course there are downsides and costs. But children have a right to at least try to hear. I find it extremely unlikely that it is a detriment to developing a rich language. Why would learn multiple ways to communicate get in the way of language? That does not make sense. Being bilingual is extremely beneficial to children and adults alike. I highly doubt cochlear implants have as many downsides as being completely deaf does. I understand the controversy. I just don’t agree that there needs to be one. It’s like amputees refusing prosthetics to walk. Why make their lives harder for no reason? They are always going to be a part of the deaf community no matter what, and there definitely has to be a way that they can experience as much of both as they can without fully missing out on either. People are extremely capable of finding a way. I fully believe in them.
It would have been neat to include some history of sign language in Native American communities. Sign Language was heavily integrated into many Native languages for a number of reasons some being the higher rates of Deafness/HOH in Native peoples and it made cross-tribal communication easier as the sign were more universal. Colonization took a lot of that away from us, in many way we lost out spoken and gestural language in the name of becoming "civilized."
I am not shocked that much what is spoken about in Deaf/HOH communities is about a desire for more community with hearing folks where they aren't the ones putting in all the effort and still being treated as a burden in hearing spaces.
When she said that insurance doesn't provide language support that is when it really clicked for me. It blows my mind that you would have to find ways to learn an entire new language to support your child without support from doctors or insurance. But it's true also for Dyslexia. Our insurance paid to diagnose my son, but any methods of giving him better language tools are entirely private and inaccessible to us. And the public school gives him support but only as a child who struggles with reading, not as a child with dyslexia.
There's actually tons of newer spoken languages. Esperanto, Lingala, even Afrikaans is less than 500 years old if you're looking for an official national language
Modern Hebrew is like 75.
I'm only deaf in one ear, and yeah, no hearing aid and no cochlear implant has ever, is ever gonna help that side. It'd be nice to tell where sounds are coming from, though. And I do miss stuff, especially in noisy environments. Extremely frustrating. Maybe DH & I will learn asl (more than the handful of words I know now), though I'm not sure how we'd arrange that for DH. I'll see better if he's signing the ordinary way and he can certainly hear my voice better than I hear his in those places. He's blind, though, and the deaf-blind version would be a lot easier for him to learn
I learned signs as a kid, but I didn't learn ASL grammar, so I use 'sign supported English' instead. To me, it's a kinesthetic language. I don't visualize things without a great deal of difficulty, but I'm very kinesthetically oriented (how things feel, how they move, etc). It'd be interesting to know if there are any studies on that aspect of the language :)
In a small nook of greek island world, i met a guy who was born deaf, in the old days when the moungtain tinkerers rode a donkey to buy and sell the metals and junk from one to the other. He had developped alone a sign language that his friends (a popular nice guy) and wife and family had learned. I learned a bit, it was quite easy to use. Of course not as evolved as a language with many speakers. I also remember a moment in an airport, where this deaf person was signing on a computer, probably communicating thru skype. I felt that that was the best thing from the internet at the time!
I am passing this video on to so many people! I wish I could have had such a clear and effective video in the 40 years that I taught D/HH in both the school for the Deaf and public school. Unfortunately most of the parents of the kids I taught barely learned basic signs for their Deaf children. The way Roberta J. Cordano explains (at 8 minutes on the video) the difficult task of comprehension for the Deaf child is something classroom teachers need to understand as well as any professional with contact with Deaf persons. Now retired, I interpret for Deaf friends and am absolutely appalled at dentists, doctors and other "professionals" who have antiquated ideas about Deaf persons, refuse to hire interpreters or feel that a pen and paper can solve the communication barrier. Videos like this need to go out to more professionals- I'll do my share!
All languages, be they audible or visual, strengthen each other, undoubtedly a lot more when tought in combination.
As an auditory learner I took on the challenge of learning sign language.... some have been successful and some haven't, lol. There aren't really any spoken teaching methods so in class my classmates seriously helped me out by speaking even though they weren't supposed to. Online I'd find vids like this one and watch the signer over and over and over again trying and then mute it to see how much I really understood. I have issues mimicking some of the gestures too as my brain seem to be hard wired in reverse. Another issue I came across is they show the movements from the front but your seeing your hands from behind so it can be difficult trying to remember if your doing it right by feeling alone. Those are the issues I ran into, and I'm far from surprised but I wanted the challenge and at the time where i was working I had 2 deaf regulars and while we worked out a method of communication I did want to try and communicate with them on their level.
It's actually much easier to learn to sign without speech. That's how I learned it online/with my sibling and it worked great. I mean, I'm not fluent or anything but I can hold a conversation for a few minutes and I reinvented a story. Definitely way easier than learning russian or Spanish imo. Might have been my teacher that made it easier tbh.
@@solsystem1342 That works for visual learners, which most people are, but I'm primarily an auditory learner. I learn best in a lecturing environment vs visual. My only saving grace in learning ASL is my second strongest learning ability is what's called active learning, which is being in movement while learning. A good example was when I was in college my math teachers were awesome and let me crochet as they lectured since while lecturing is great math is mostly visual. I sucked k-12 because they teach primarily visually and I was actually illiterate until I was 12 so I missed a lot of the basics in languages kids get. College was a life saver as it teaches via lectures more then anything.
PS. I also have a slight learning disability so unless it caters to my learning type its very difficult for me to learn and retain.
I feel you so hard. As someone with autism that loves languages, learning sign language it's something I would love to do, especially for my non-verbal episodes, but then the reality that I have visual processing issues and I'm also strongly an auditory learner is just a huge hurdle to overcome on top of the whole new grammar and a whole new way to communicate.
I don't know a single deaf person in real life but sign language seems like a lot of fun actually and have practical applications too, for example in loud environments.
Yes also we can have conversations further away from speaking or where there is glass. 😊
I made a D&D character who’s deaf and as a result all the other characters started learning sign language to make things easier for her. There have been MANY occasions where that bit of setup was super useful - once saved a character from getting arrested by being across the street and signing to him that guards were coming. It’s obvi not the same as actually being deaf or using sign language, but it’s fascinating how just in a D&D game having characters who can sign is handy (pardon the pun)
@@clairee4939 cool !
@@skylark7921 yeah also very cool. Maybe I should try to learn some basic level sign language for tfun and also for practicality.
Dunno yet what way to learn fits best for me yet but it feels like something usefull
I need more episodes of Otherwords in my life!! Please, PBS, may 2023 be filled with way more episodes of this brilliant show ♡
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! More channels need interpreters!
Please excuse the ignorant or disrespectful question, but why? Is it interpreters' ability to convey hosts' emotions in a way that captions/subtitles can't, or are there other benefits?
@@FrumpyMcDumpster good question. I'm dyslexic and am hard of hearing. Reading teleprompters & or closed captioning is tough, but seeing someone sign allows me to understand what little bits I am hearing. Also yes emotions I suppose come through clearer as well.
I so wish that I had the opportunity to learn ASL when I was in school. Especially now in the age of the internet, I would imagine that translating to or from ASL is much much more difficult than spoken languages. What a great video!
My daughter taught my granddaughter what was called Baby sign when she was just a baby, even though she could hear all right. I was amazed that my granddaughter was able to communicate her thoughts before she learned how to talk.
3:06 In the time Cordano claims no new spoken languages where created there are several dozen "creole" languages (Haitian, Jamaican, etc.) that where created. The first building blocks of standardized German where laid by the Luther Bible in 1522, the languages of the Balkan have been and are going through enormous changes, with conlangs new languages were created, without linguistic relatives. So claiming that spoken languages are static merely points to her being more uninterested in them than any person with hearing is in sign language.
Three tragic situations come to mind. 1. A family who rented my grandfather's property had a son whom they claimed was mentally slow and couldn't speak well. He had gone through oralism school and because he couldn't always see the conversations being spoken, he had been left behind. 2. The second, a medical doctor's son, was forbidden by his father to use sign language up until high school when he realized it actually might have been helpful to his son. Once involved in Deaf camp the son didn't feel he was as fluent as some of his friends but he finally found a space where he felt he could blossom. One of his hearing brothers also learned enough sign they could family sign and communicate beside simply giving directions. 3. The last one was while I was trying to learn asl from a friend, I met a deaf young adult who had never been exposed to language until an adult much like the first man mentioned. Most importantly, his hearing wife who signed said his emotional fluency was diagonosed as very poor and not likely to progress much because during his first 5 years he had largely been warehoused. To me it seemed like his parents thought it better he learn no language if he couldn't learn to speak english. What a permanent mistake that not even learning general signing or getting an implant could compensate for.
The biggest take away I get is... too many hearing people decide "they" are the normal ones, without question, repeat, without question. It is to the loss of all of us.
I think everyone should be taught sign language in kindergarten. It would be incredibly useful beyond speaking to deaf people. How many times I wish I could have used it in a noisy sports stadium, or a noisy bar, or a noisy workplace, but that will only work if everyone knows it.
I also think the hearing impaired should consider cochlear implants if they can have them. There is so much more to the hearing world than language. I wish they could all hear birdsong, and the roar of ocean waves, and frogs on the pond at night.❤️
Exactly! Sign language is super useful and should be taught alongside the antive language. But deafness is a disability and it limits many opprotunities. Cochlear implants let a person hear a honknig horn (when sound is ingrained in society as an emrgency feature, it's kind of important.)
You only get 10% of a conversation from the words, 30% from body language, and 60% from tone. Deaf people are missing out on 60% of a conversation.
Edit: I say this as someone who failed his safety hearing exam and couldn't work on construction sites.
@@kyleellis1825 yes, exactly! How many misunderstandings happen online because we can’t convey tone and subtlety as easily. And as you say, there is the safety aspect.
@@kyleellis1825 I think sign language could probably express tone via implementing body language into it. It seems likely to me that an angry person using sign language can express their tone with aggressive movement and so on for other types of emotions and their respective tones.
@@astick5249 But that's adding onto the sign language, not part of the language itself. Sounds have tones, HAnd movements require body/facial adjustments to convey more tone.
I think everyone should learn Sign Language. But it's not quite as expressive as sound and the ASL organization saying it's discrimination to want to hear... That' just moronic stubborness to keep a disability and remain "special"
@@kyleellis1825 Some googling shows that sign language does have tone. It's in facial expressions, how "big" a sign is, speed of the sign, posture, all of these things can communicate what is communicated through tone in spoken languages.
5:33 I had a 4th grade teacher who knew ASL and taught us a decent amount of words that ended with us having a fairly large packet at the end of the year that we would keep. Because of that, I chose to take ASL as my 2 years of foreign language in high school. It's now been over a decade since I've had to use any of it (and I don't use it casually either), but I think I could recognize about half of the signs Jack Gannon used in that clip!
As for the signing in the rest of the video, I have no idea if I'm remembering some of the words from my instruction, but many of the signs are rather obvious in meaning and a couple are popping out even before the narration says it.
At my elementary school, despite not having deaf/hard of hearing students etc., we learned ASL early on.
Most of the early grade classes all had the ASL alphabet and we actually had to perform songs in ASL multiple times. It wasn't a lot, but it made it easier for me to understand some ASL and pick up more through the years.
Right now, one of my coworkers is fluent in ASL so we sometimes communicate that way and she teaches me some often. Been useful because we get ASL customers about every other week (sometimes back to back) and they're usually delighted by me using the *very little* I know to communicate with them 😅
It makes you wonder, too, how oralism impacted Deaf people's ability to interact with other Deaf people. If someone lip-reading only gets 1/3 of the information, how much less effective must it be trying to lip-read someone who wouldn't be speaking naturally? It must have been so isolating.
Also, my high school didn't have and ASL class until the year after I graduated. I'm still a little salty about it.
Our family is all hearing but we have learned as much ASL as we can. We taught our children ASL and Spanish along with English. My spouse and I use ASL to communicate often and the kids use it less, but when they are struggling to communicate clearly in English they often choose signing to get across what they want to say. Knowing more than one language can better serve you in life. Who knows? One day you may lose your ability to hear.
I loved this video. It reminded me of how we used "Signing Time" to help my daughter with selective mutism. It helped us transition into spoken language at the age of 3, though she had an extremely strong understanding of English spoken language. I wish we had started it earlier, like around 1 instead of age 2. I also wish she had stuck to it, as I feel it gave her the confidence to speak and express herself more fully.
This series is best on all of youtube. I love this show. Great education, great research, and presented in a wonderful way.
Being deaf or hard of hearing is a disability by definition.
Though we should all endeavor to learn sign language and teach it to kids as a supportive second language, we should remember that "fixing" it with implants is something we also should aim to make available to as many as possible.
Banning the use of sign language is also tantamount to banning the use of glasses or canes for the blind, or wheelchairs for the crippled.
decades ago, i did an internship for several months in a big company and worked for two weeks each time in different departments. one of those departments was staffed almost exclusively by "handicapped" people, one of them blind (which i noticed only after a week of working across from him) and many deaf people who could easily and quickly have conversations with any distant people across the big hall and completely ignoring all the noise by using sign language. _for me_ it was the loneliest two weeks of the internship because i was almost the only one who could barely communicate with the others because of distance, noise, and my inability to speak in sign language, and thus i felt that it was *_me_* who was the only handicapped person, missing to "talk" with anybody else.
i didn't learn sign language (too busy at that time), but i learned how important good communication and sign language are !
This is a well done video, years ago I met a deaf guy who wanted to be a professional wrestler but he couldn't find a trainer most were scared that they would be looked at as if they were taking advantage of a "special" person.
I knew a trainer that was needed hearing aides and between the two of us we trained him, and wrestled for a few years but quit because he wanted to make tons of money so he became a paralegal.
"A former-wrestler paralegal" is a fighting game character if ever.
Sign language is important. It goes beyond the deaf, though it is certainly primarily for the deaf. I'm autistic and in my twenties. I often have struggled with basic communication throughout my whole life. The written word is easy for me, and nowadays I can get through most situations without having much difficulties.
I've been learning asl, and I have immediately seen an improvement in my capability to express myself, just by throwing in some signs when I'm trying to speak. It's like it helps me remember my words and gives me the context I've needed.
I hope to one day sign fluently, as even with the little I have learned so far it has made an extreme difference in my quality of life.
My former co-worker and his sister had deaf parents, so they were fluent in ASL and I got to practice with them. We worked in a nightclub and could communicate when others couldn't. We booked a party for a deaf young leadership conference and I DJ'd. It was a blast with lots of low-end music because you feel it more than hear it. I learned some very expressive party gestures that everyone loved. My signing is like my Spanish, rusty but appreciated when needed to communicate. On a side note, my friend's daughter is 8. She is hearing and English is her first language but speaks Japanese with her mom's mom and signs with her dad's parents. Her cousins sign as well and I hope they keep the tradition going for generations to come
I really appreciate that a video about ASL actually has a picture-in-picture interpreter! Most of the videos I see don't even provide open captions, or even accurate closed captions. Its so crazy to talk about a language and a community and not make that content accessible to them.
Spoken languages are not static. Many new languages have been created the last 500 years. Swedish and Danish were the same language 500 years ago, but now they are barely mutably intelligible. I think it is the same with Russian and Ukrainian. Plus languages not split between countries have drifted far the last 500 years. Not sure many would understand the spoken version of English at Shakespear's time, even if we can read it.
I took classes in American Sign Language in college. It was wonderful! It's my understanding that children who are taught ASL as infants learn to communicate much earlier. Even a gorilla, named Koko, learned some ASL, and that proves how valuable ASL is! I just wish I could've learned it as a child.
The "deaf people are creating new languages" statement is an interesting one. How are we defining "language" in this instance? Is it "new" or is it "slang"? Because even spoken language is constantly evolving, it hasn't been "stagnant".
"Amirite" has recently found it's way into Websters dictionary. "At" has had a new meaning assigned to it (in the case of "don't at me", which means don't argue/debate my point), "yeet", "janky", and "sus" have all been new additions to spoken language.
ASL would've been great to learn as a kid. About one in eight of people in the US are deaf (on average), but I have only ever met one deaf person in my life; however, as we get older, our hearing will weaken and this would be an instance where ASL would be beneficial.