Gibson, you got some 'splainin' to do...
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- Well, I wasn't expecting that... a fine instrument with a fretboard that's just wrong.
Still, I re-learned a very valuable lesson, solved some previous puzzles and confirmed principles I learned a long time ago - but forgot!
How did it turn out? Here's the followup result: • Gibson troubles - how ...
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your first measurement needs to start half a fret width from the edge of the nut as the edge of the nut is in fact equivalent to the center of a fret. I don't think there will be an issue then.
I measured resonant points for the string - leading edge of the nut to the center of the first fret. Then measured the following frets edge to edge - which is exactly the same as measuring center to center but far more efficient.
@@guitar-niche I agree. You documented that very perfectly at 4:38. So, to be clear, there 'is' an issue with the distance between the leading edge of the nut to the center of the first fret. I think Roger may be confused, which is easy to do in guitar work.
@@johnphillips752no using that technique is going to make the first measurement less than the next few measurements, if he went from the edge of the fret to the centre of the first fret to see the distance, then surly he should have measured from the centre of the first to the centre of the second and so on as this way you are measuring the intonation distance between the frets given the open string note is from the leading edge of the nut or edge of the fretboard.
Using his method will make the first measurement shorter as when he went from the leading edge to leading edge of each fret gave those measurements and even distance and made the first gap bigger because he didn’t go to the leading edge of the first fret .
I did this test on all my guitars, 6 different brands and all of them did the same using his incorrect method where as when I went from the edge of the fret board or like he said leading edge of the nut and measure the first to the centre of the fret because that’s the correct way to get a note , I then went from centre to centre and all guitars then had the gap even over the first 5 frets.
This dude has no business working on guitars , that’s my opinion
No. You're 100% wrong. Use Google before just guessing at how things work.
@@ShaneSGyou're a fool. You're 100 %wrong too 🤦. The front edge of one fret to the front edge of another IS THE EXACT SAME DISTANCE AS MEASURING CENTER TO CENTER.
If you don't understand that, YOU shouldn't be working on guitars. That's BASIC MATH.
Furthermore, you ALWAYS measure from the leading edge of the nut to the center of the first fret. That measurement already takes into account that every other measurement if from center to center. If you were to use a zero fret, then you'd measure center to center at the first fret. It's not though. It's a nut which you measure FROM THE LEADING EDGE. . You're clueless. You probably watch Trogly, don't you? 🙄🤦
Look up stewmacs fret calculator. Or any fret calculator. It explains this on all of them. Smdh. Jesus Christ you're dense.
I believe when someone at the factory programmed or setup the cutters, didn't discount 1/2 the width of the fretwire for the nut position. That would definitely cause an intonation issue. Understandable for a newbie or someone not paying attention.
Not understandable that it made it out of the factory. Not at what they charge for mid grade instruments
Yeah but that would make the nut closer to the first fret, not further!
I just did this on 3 guitars.
A Solar E1.6 FBB, an Ibanez AZES40 and a 2020 PRS SE Tremonti Standard.
All 3 are indonesian made.
The Solar and the Ibanez were fine. The PRS was not. Guess which one always sounds “off” when playing A or Am etc at the second fret position? Yep, the PRS.
The nut on that thing needed filling down too. I think I’ll replace it with a GraphTek nut.
Cheers from NZ 😎🎸🤘
Edit: Subscribed!!
Welcome!
Thanks, love this video!
I measured some of my guitars with interesting results:
-My Gibson LP Junior shows exactly the same results as in the video.
-A liuther made 339 I have shows consistent spacing all the way up.
-A 70s acoustic Hofner I have is all over the place with spacings that seem different for every fret.
-A 70s Cimar LP shows consistent spacing all the way up.
-Acustic Freshman, consistent spacing.
-A Eko s300 Strat copy also consistent.
In all my tests using the same measurment technique I've found most of my guitars have consitent spacing, with the exception of the Hofner which is all over the place (but I love that guitar so who knows XD) and my Gibson which like the video shows has a slightly larger spacing from nut to 1st fret.
Really curious to see if this issue develops and we get some response :)
Thanks for the comment, interesting! There's a followup video that reveals the results - keep an eye out for it.
I've noticed this when playing "cowboy chords" on my Les Pauls. If you play a barred chord, everything is fine.
Thanks for explaining the reason!
I get the same on my 335, but not on my Gretsch middle market 5420. Out come the calipers and I will see what I find.....
@@howardmaryon Good luck!
The reason why you sound like you’re out of tune with cowboy chords, is because there is a combination of open strings and fretted strings. The problem is you are applying too much pressure on the fretted strings, which is raising the pitch. Try using lighter pressure when you use cowboy cords, and you will find it is in tune, I had a Gibson SG that had really high frets, which allowed the string to go down a long way before hitting the fretboard, which indicated to me how much fret pressure I was using on my left hand. If nothing else, it taught me that I was applying way too much pressure. I’ve since lightened it, and I don’t have that out of tone sound with cowboy chords/open chords.
@@JeffMarcum This can be the problem but what he shows in the video is often the problem. I've seen it myself.
I have a new Epiphone with the same issue. If I get all strings perfectly in tune open, and check on the first fret, they are all sharp. I didn't really realize it until I got a Peterson tuner that is super sensitive.
That issue could also be the nut slots being too high. Measure the frets like I did to make sure they're accurate.
@@guitar-niche EXACTLY.IF IT'S PLAYING SHARP AT THE FIRST FRET THEN THE NOT SLOT HAS TO BE LOWERED
Also remember that nut slots not quite deep enough so strings are slightly too high above fret 1. can cause the same problem. The problem with just cutting the slots lower ( even with the correct tools) is that if you cut a fraction too low, the strings will then buzz against fret 1 . Like many aspects of guitar adjustment, this can easily get you into more trouble than you had before. Good nut files, patience, a set if cheap feeler gauges, and dont be in a hurry😊
Interesting. I have measured my PRS SE, Harley Benton TE90 and Epiphone LP Custom using this method, none of these have this issue. It'd be interesting to hear from other Gibson owners and see if guitar in the video have accidental or this is the way they are made. Also please let us know of the results of your solution.
Thanks! Yeah, it's a can of worms. There will be a followup video for sure.
@@guitar-niche what year is this guitar? Doesn’t look like current (2019-present) Original collection. Is it a Modern?
your first measurement was from resonant points, but you then jumped half a fret width before taking the rest of the measurement which is where I believe the discrepancy is.
If you go on to Stew mac they have a fret calculator. If you use mm and put 628.65 Gibson scale, 22 frets you get a list. I checked my Gibson USAs and my Epi IBG es335 and they are spot on. I guess if you crown the fret 100% correct your intonation will be better than a very worn flat pitted fret. Also how hard you press a string can change the note. However if you use a lot of overdrive DS1 distortion at volume........
Good observations. The method used in this video measures predetermined resonance points for accuracy. It also automatically discounts the variables associated with wear and tear.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the intonation for all the fretted notes on a guitar neck tends to go progressively sharp towards the nut from the 12th fret (assuming the 12th fret intonation is set accurately enough), and from the 12th fret to the last fret on the fretboard, also my understanding is that most electric guitars are designed to use equal-temperament in their scale-length and fret placement positions.
Correct! This is due to the forces of deflection. Equal temperament, though flawed in the harmonious sense, is more of a convenience, , especially for for manufacturing than anything else. To work around these issues we have all sorts of compensated nuts and similar modification systems.
And thank you! That’s a really cool way of making the problem easy to see.
Welcome!
not a new problem. Mid 70’s I dealt with an ES175 in UK with a history of passing from one puzzled muso to another at a bargain price. After i did spme pitch measurements, carved about 3/4 mm off the end of the fingerboard and resited the nut, the guitar played sweetly - I think for the first time. Many other electrics in the intervening years, and most recently, just one example from a batch of Eastman 305 mandolins with exactly the same problem. ( All the others intonated perfectly - or as perfectly as possible a straight nut)
I wanted to know how much a luthier would saw off and you're talking about less than a millimetre. When I capo 2 my ES339 it's perfect and E chords, A shape chords and even the D shape are perfect. Back to open and it's AWFUL. Out of all then guitars I have my Hohner C3T cricket bat is the most perfect for intonation. It has a zero fret and I LOVE this guitar.
@@ChrisPBacon-vf2dz Interesting!
The measurement for the guitar in this video turned out to be .024" - about the same as your ES175. Interesting!
@@guitar-niche what year is the Les Paul in the video? This is important and please answer.
@@19581998 2020 Les Paul Classic
ha ha, 14:40 you changed your measuring system " from midpoint on first fret .
then measured rest of fret at the ends ..
ha ha ,you got me there for a second! ...---...
He's half a centre out. That's the difference between a luthier and a simple guitar tech.
@@x13roger80 I measured resonant points for the string - leading edge of the nut to the center of the first fret. Then measured the following frets edge to edge - which is exactly the same as measuring center to center but far more efficient. Is that luthier or simple guitar tech?
I think you may have forgotten to subtract half of the thickness of the fret to the first measurement. Also, there are different temperaments for fret spacing - you never mentioned which one you used; Pythagoras vs. equal spacing. Be sure you choose the correct one that Gibson used!
exactly
Yes... Noticed right away!
I think he measured the first one to the center line on the fret because the nut's edge acts as s fret center. He then went on and measured from edge to edge because is easier to rest the card against it, thoretically I don't see a flaw there, the ratio is consistent.
@@edsavage6214you’re right, my bad, but he doesn’t go over temperament. This is a good video and I subscribed to blackbird for a while and he talks about Gibson’s temperament - pretty interesting. ruclips.net/video/5J4iFv8bzZk/видео.htmlsi=0AtYdm8gOC5VEmXj
That's the way I saw it.@@edsavage6214
That's astonishing, and something I've never seen before. The business card trick is excellent. Like others, I've just tried it with some of my own guitars. The marks I made against a Crafter acoustic looked right (i.e., no odd gaps), and they matched perfectly against a Telecaster with the same scale length. If they don't already sell such a tool, how long do you think it will be before Stewmac have them on their website, with different scale lengths marked in different places? Every music store could have one to QC the guitars that arrived in stock, and any guitarist could have one, to check guitars in music stores before buying (or as soon as an online purchase arrived). Heck, even guitar manufacturers could have them, to QC check before despatch... Anyway, if the use of this tool was widespread, manufacturers would have to tighten up their procedures!
Thanks!! Super appreciated :)
From the first frame I was thinking the first fret looked too wide. Wow, definitely fixable but it should never have left the factory like that. I wonder how many they made 😢
A problem that is more common than one would think. Who knows what happend but I've experinced excatly this problem with an Epiphone and it took quite a while before I inspected the 1st fret for length, mainly 'cause one dosen't expect this. The card trick is just smart , I didn't think of that I spent a lot of time measuring with my caliper.
Nice tip.
Thank you!
I'm not a luthier, i re-glued a nut on my les paul and notice some ofa my strings constantly going sharp. So i obviously did something wrong that created a problem i didn't have before. Just putting it out there. God bless all.
All good man, at least you're trying. If you get stuck you can always take it to a pro :)
Marks in the wood around the first fret area are just brutal.
Yeah, see it all the time.
Very interesting. I have the exact same issue on my PRS. I always tune my PRS fretting on the 3rd or 5th fret, that's were I mostly play, which leaves my open strings flatt. If I tune open strings, the all my fretted chords are sharp.
I wonder if we'd have noticed this when we first started playing. I've become so fussy about it lately that it's started to diminish the pleasure of playing. The open D shape on my Strat is just so beautiful to hear that F sharp hammered off to open E. Wish my 2 Gibsons were the same.
Why did you measure to the centerline of the first fret but then measured to the leading edge of all the other frets?
I suppose because you measure from the end of the nut, which is basically the same as the center of a fret (point of contact with string). You could continue to measure the center of the frets from there on, but is just easier to measure from end to end because it is a 'hard line' and more visible :)
For the rest of the frets, measuring edge to edge is the same measurement as center to center, but easier to do consistently for the video.
@@rubeng.1309 Exactly!
@@tedmacdonald4410 Yep.
great vid, this may well explain a problem i have with one of my guitars.
Welcome!
Thank You So Much!!!!
I've owned so many otherwise great guitars with this problem. who would of thought a nut could be so misplaced.
Welcome!
Would putting in a Zero Fret solve the issue?
If there's enough room, but it makes a mess of the aesthetic.
Excellent video Steve! I must now check all of my guitars for this problem! Thanks for the awesome info.
Welcome!
DON'T DO IT IT WILL DRIVE YOU CRAZY.EVERY TYPE OF GUITAR HAS THIS SO CALLED PROBLEMS.
@@TheVINMAN531 Right?
@@TheVINMAN531 I’m sure most guitars do all have this problem as it is likely a spot for the company to save QC time. In my mind every little thing like this adds up so why not make it part of the inspection/setup process. Especially if the nut is being replaced. What drives me crazy is an out of tune “A” or “D”
If you zoom way in you can see a faint line where the fretboard was supposed to be cut.. unreal. I have this problem in my 2005 Les Paul standard. This has been driving me ‘nuts’, excellent info thanks!!!
Right! Good eye. 👍
You could be right or maybe it's just nasty filing marks like you can see from nut to first fret. Gibson's quality is absurd for the cost. Also notice the far too wide neck edge binding with too much nib build up at the fret end. That can cause the high string to get caught in a crack. Look at a Heritage guitar to see how that should be or probably just an older correctly made Gibson.
I worked on a squire Strat that required the nut be moved toward the bridge 3/16". Every guitar I've worked on or heard has needed compensated intonation
Yep, it's more common than people think.
Why do you measure from the leading edge of the nut to the center line of the 1st fret, then from leading edge to leading edge the rest of the way up?
because the edge of the nut to the middle of the first fret is the true distance that the string is shortened by when you fret the first fret (the bottom edge of the nut to the bottom edge of the first fret would not be the 'true' distance). He then changed from edge-to-edge on the other frets simply because it was easier to measure. The distance from edge-to-edge is the same as centre to centre, as long as you use the same edge.
@@adamhowemusic283 Ah, yes that does make perfect sense. Thanks.
@@adamhowemusic283 Exactly!
I'd be willing to bet that's why early Bursts and such, had "24.5 or "24.594 inch scale. For years Gibson has been using "24.75. Seems somewhat careless to leave any excess scale length beyond optimal, all above the 1rst. fret. How much that effects your playing is debatable. How often do we hang out on the first fret?
Hey thats a neat trick, would that work to double-check fret layout before cutting? If youre going from leading edge to leading edge I imagine it would work fine to catch any possible near-catastrophic errors, maybe the folks over at Gibson need to learn how to measure twice eh?
Yep! It'll work.
What year and model Les Paul is this? I am betting it is pre-2019 based on the fretboard wood, binding thickness, inlays.
2020 Classic
Question is, is there enough adjustment at the saddles to compensate for moving the nut?
I think the whole reason this guitar has a problem is because the bridge is in the right spot but the nut is too far away for the scale length so, assuming the bridge is in the correct place, the saddles should be fine I think?
Moving the saddles the same distance the nut was moved will just created a similar problem (but more easily fixable ofc)
@@adamhowemusic283 if the distance from the nut to the twelfth is the same as the saddle (not sure which string is used) to the twelfth...as it stands, you'll need to move the saddles if you move the nut. I checked my #1 LP and it appears to be correct.
Neat video. I'm curious to see your paper placed on the low E- is the nut square?
Noticed many comments who are forgetting that measuring edge to edge is the same measurement as measuring center to center on each fret, just a little more consistent for the video.
Yes the nut is square. And thanks for recognizing the efficiency of measuring the remaining frets.
i'm confused...you took the first measurement to the center of the fret then took the next measurements to the outside (or inside) of the next fret, hence the difference? also why did you label the mark at the first fret as "nut"? Also, is there supposed to be total sameness of distance all the way up with this postcard trick, and if so, why? nothing was explained at a beginner level, here, and a beginner, i am. Also, fun fact: i just got hired at gibson lol
Well ask that question and come back and leave the answer…cuz I’m totally F’ed up with this nonsense and gots to know the answer!😤😜
I measured resonant points for the string - leading edge of the nut to the center of the first fret. Then measured the following frets edge to edge - which is exactly the same as measuring center to center but far more efficient. As you move into the higher frets the registration lines become uniformly tighter - as they should.
Would it be easier to put in a “zero fret” ? Just curious.
Cheers from NZ 😎🎸🤘
If they don't cut the slot properly, it doesn't matter what kind of nut they fit. Of course zero frets can be perfectly good, and are the standard on gypsy jazz guitars, but unfortunately they became associated with cheap copies in the 1970s, so manufacturers tend to avoid them.
Hate to be that guy, but you're wrong. There should be more length between the nut and the first fret . as the scale goes up the neck it will get shorter and shorter as I'm sure you already know .okay, in order to go and have the intonation properly work. thehardest place to play is half position ,which would be 1/2 step or one fret between the nut and first fret .on virtually every guitar or stringed instrument, you have to have a longer span than the rest of the Frets in order for the intonation to work. if you're concerned about intonation on the cowboy chord end of the neck ,file the nut slots so that the guitar plays in tune on each string so you get a perfect half step when you fret the first fret. Sorry about the run-on sentence text to speech sucks.. lol😊
Now that makes sense to me.
Gibson uses a CNC machine to cut fret slots. There must be thousands of guitars with this problem. Got to love it.
Gibson cuts their fret and nut slots on a CNC, several units at a time. I doubt this somehow shifted in the CNC fixture, so this is one of two issues. Either a batch of guitars went out this way with the same problem or it is a design issue. Have you checked this against other recent samples?
I certainly have, and they're all on spec.
If you're right, then the measurement to the 12th fret will be over 12.375
So,what was it?
It was not 12.375 because Gibson does not use an absolute scale length of 24.75". The answer will be revealed in a related video.
Just measured my ‘11 50s tribute lp and got the same as you did there. Can it really be a mistake that keeps showing up? I mean my guitar and that one are 9 years apart. So either this is something Gibson does for a reason or they figured screw it.
Hard to say for sure. But I can tell you after the discrepancy was removed the guitar intonated better.
Well thank you for the vid
You're most welcome.@@stevensiciliano3584
I believe the guitar could be sent back to Gibson for warranty work.
I think you may be right.
This is huge.
Good luck with that. My experience with Gibson warranty is that they don't care. They give a standard statement of "Gibson makes musical instruments, not guitars."
My 90s strats all play in tune and stay that way.
So am i correct to assume that taking out some material below the nut and getting thw nut closer to the 1st fret will fix this issue? Or am i not understanding?
You are correct.
@@jeffwombold9167 so it was only the distance from the nut to the 1st fret that was off then?
@tomelliott2264 yes, probably by half the width of the fretwire.
@@jeffwombold9167 Makes sense right?
@guitar-niche That's the kind of thing I did for over 50 years in machining. I made that mistake a few times in a slightly different situation every now and then.
Why not just measure it with the calipers? Not saying I disagree with your findings....but hard numbers are truth.
Thanks for the comment. True that, but this method is quicker at rooting out problems.
I have solved this issue y purchasing the Heritage H150. Perfect fit, finish, and zero tuning issues.
Time Pierce did a video on that I think. It was amazing !
Buzz Fienten tuning system, Ervana compensated nut…there are many third-party products that don’t require excuse the term destructive installation
Why don't you just check the first fret position according to the scale length with a vernier (and all the others while your'e at it with a decent steel ruler).That'll tell you how far out your frets are ! There are plenty of fret calculators out there, and check the intonation on the first fret.(depending on how hard you fret the notes on the first fret and gauge of string is going to make a world of difference. Also your nut slots look pretty high especially with those narrow high frets. Measuring frets with bits of paper is going to compound errors. No guitar is in perfect tune 6 different strings fret spacing the same for each one (in principle it can't be in perfect tune.
Cheers Andrew
Thanks for the questions and comment! I used to use hyper-specific measurements but found this little shortcut produced the same results much faster to prove an issue (off-spec suspects) more efficiently. Once the culprit is identified the rest is academic. As for the nut slots, the camera doesn't "feel" them correctly.
@@guitar-nichewhat splay and break angles did you put on the nut?
My acoustics give the same result. The cheap Tanglewood (c£500) plays the open A chord off tune, but my HD28 (£3200) doesn’t! So, does fret height affect intonation?
It certainly does. A lot of things affect intonation.
ok so all the frets need to be the same spacing ??? or just the nut needs to closer to the 1st fret ??
More the 1st fret, they didn't router the fingerboard correctly. That little bit of space throws everything out of whack on a guitar. That's like why baritone models are bigger it's all mathematical spacing.
@@dethmedic52 Exactly.
and if you look at the wood around the first fret, there are cross sanding marks...way to go Gibson..seems like Gibson has not figured out quality even to day
This guitar nut was replaced by the speaker on this video. Why do you assume the “cross-sanding marks” are a result of manufacturing by Gibson.
I dont know of a reason why the area we are talking about had any thing to do with the nut replacement .. nothing on the neck need to be sanded during a nut replacement.....sorry but Ive heard of issues about Q with the Gibsons
As usual another Gibson special edition model.
You don't understand how businesses work? You'd have a point if all the same people have worked at Gibson for the last 30 years without hiring anyone new and without anyone leaving.
Fact is, that's not how it works. They get new employees that have to learn this stuff. And they have current employees that learn different parts of the process. So, there's always going to be issues and Gibson will never get the the point of making guitars with no flaws. Not when employee turnover is a thing.
OMG. Sanding scratches in wood. Whatever shall one do? 🤦
Take 30 seconds and knock em down. BFD.
I must have missed something. Your first pen mark was from the nut edge to the MIDDLE of the first fret, and subsequent marks were from prev fret edge to next fret edge. So of course the first to second fret distance (ie the second pen mark) will be a greater delta than nut to first fret, no? Sorry if I'm just a dufus and am missing something you're saying here!
No worries, thanks for being curious. I measured resonant points for the string - leading edge of the nut to the center of the first fret. Then measured the following frets edge to edge - which is exactly the same as measuring center to center but far more efficient :)
@@guitar-niche Thank you for the reply. Ah yes, I see now what you did! Much appreciated!
It seem you never put in a measure ment, but the zero fret set up or a brass compensated nut. U should put a accurate fret board beside side to show instead of babbling
Because of the 1st fret action that a Gibson guitar typically has, the string tension tends to increase when you fret behind the first fret, making the fretted-note go sharp in pitch, maybe the increased fret-distance between the leading edge of the nut to the centre of the first fret might be an attempt by Gibson to compensate for that effect in some way, but then again, shifting the fret position towards the bridge-end of the neck will actually make the fretted note sharper due to the shorter string-length between the centre of the first-fret and the string saddle, so the saddle would have to be moved back from the bridge pickup in order to lengthen the string length to compensate, so yeah, I'll have to agree with you, maybe someone at Gibson Guitars USA got their maths wrong when calculating the position of the first fret, my understanding is that you calculate each successive fret position using a figure based on the 12th root of two or something like that, Gibson usually use a 24.75 inch scale length on their Les Paul and SG guitar models.
Gibson use 2 scale lengths thru the years, on most models, also find most 60's to 90's are a 10" radius not 12"
Thanks for doing this because i got a les paul 2019. It wont intonate! Im replacing the nut and this is a real problem. Its annoying its been bothering me and Gibson sucks.
Thanks! I hope you get it sorted.
@@guitar-niche All thanks to you for confirming my suspicions, The Guitar I own is a 60s -reissue inspected on 2-25-2020, by Gibson by P.J.G. Intonation is checked off as a Passed. Gibson states that they would like to know if there is any way they could improve the purchase experience. Ill see how that goes..
Lots of controversy!!! Can you just confirm the nut to 1st fret centre distance you get with the callipers ?? I get 1,38” Tx for the video
I measured 1.3635" - close enough I'd say :)
@@guitar-niche So exactly to the gibson scale spec of 1.363". (1.375" - 0.012" for half a fret tang)... congrats on a perfectly made guitar.
Wait, what was the problem again?
No problem anymore.@@littleshopofrandom685
You could use the rule of 18 to check for the correct fret spacing. All you need is a compass!
This is negligible but I think you went to centre on the nut measurement and to the edge on the rest. Your point is still valid though.
Also what are those marks on the rosewood on the first fret I wonder. Now I have to measure all my Gibsons!! Ha ha. But I have no intonation problems with mine.
Some folks are hyper sensitive to pitch. For them this is HUGE.
@@guitar-niche I’m not disagreeing. It was just an observation. To the point you just made.. when I was younger I always thought perfect pitch would be the greatest gift. Now I wonder if it’s more of a curse. Everything you hear would sound out of tune no? Other than modern digital stuff which no one likes anyway. Either way I wish my ear was better
@@deanmccaskill5495 No worries. I had a student years ago with perfect pitch and you're absolutely right, it is a curse!
He went to centre on the first fret to get the true distance and then switched to edge-to-edge because it was faster to measure.
@@adamhowemusic283 Exactly right.
Correct me if I'm wrong but he measured the first fret to the centre of the fret then the rest to the edge of the fret, it was bound to be different. He should have measured from the edge of the nut to the edge of the fret and so on. Day one stuff for a carpenter.
Thanks for the comment. I measured resonant points for the string - leading edge of the nut to the center of the first fret. Then measured the following frets edge to edge - which is exactly the same as measuring center to center but far more efficient.
The front face of the nut is the same as the centre of fret "zero", so the first measurement, from there to the centre of fret 1, was accurate. The distance between the edge of any other fret to the corresponding edge of the next fret is the same as between their centres, but is easier to judge. No inaccuracies at all in the luthier's technique here.
FAKE NEWS! & JUNK SCIENCE. The strings are in contact with the leading edge of the nut, not the center. The frets on the other hand, are in contact with the string at the center. Therefore, the first measurement should be from the leading edge of the nut to the center of the first fret, and all subsequent measurements need to be from the center of the fret to the center of the next fret. I have over two dozen Gibsons, and I just measured a bunch of them using the method I just described, and the intervals are identical. Furthermore, I put a digital tuner on the headstock and fretted each note starting at the nut, and moving up each fret, and they were all accurate on pitch. If the owner feels like something is out of tune on the first fret, it’s probably because he’s using too much pressure in his left hand. This is particularly noticeable playing cowboy chords when you have a combination of fretted strings and open strings. The fretted strings are higher in pitch because of the length of travel down to the fretboard. This is usually more noticeable when a guitar has tall frets, rather than low profile frets. Bottom line: this guitar may not have a problem. If it does, it’s a one off, and not an issue among all Gibsons as many people in the comments section are suggesting.
I am the owner and I discovered the problem with the nut being in the wrong place (comparing against a bunch of guitars with the same scale length) after many attempts to set up the intonation. Been playing 40 years, including professionally, nothing to do with my technique. As far as Steve's helpful measurement hack, think it through before dissing it.
Thanks!!
Easy fix get a buzz feiton shelf nut ,I installed many to fix this exact issue
Done that, owner's not a fan of the aesthetic.
I thought at first itd be something easily sourced like you thought. Nut and tuning gears are usually the problem, man thats a heavy QC issue. I think ive only ever seen an epiphone SG with a similar issue. Hope the fix goes smooth man!
Thanks! Yes, me too. BTW, the reason I made this video is directly because I've seen this problem before.
@@guitar-niche hopefully not too often as like I said I've seen only 1 that bad off. Most times I can fineggle the nut or something but that ones beyond saving as it stands. Also thankya for responding big hoss!!!
£4k for mass produced fluff 😂
The width of the fret is immaterial. The point at which you need to measure is at the center point of each fret.
As noted and intended: "measuring edge to edge is the same measurement as measuring center to center on each fret".
@@guitar-niche The first fret needs to be measured from the nut to the center point, with each measurement taken from the center point thereafter. If you measure from the nut to the edge of the fret of the first fret, then each succeeding measurement is going to be off.
@@Spritsailor Correct!👍
@@Spritsailor I measured resonant points for the string - leading edge of the nut to the center of the first fret. Then measured the following frets edge to edge - which is exactly the same as measuring center to center but far more efficient.
@@guitar-niche All subsequent measurements you made are off by half a fret width. This difference will skewer any intonation argument.
You did go to the center of the first fret
Yep!
@ 1:42 he says he replaced the nut, wouldnt that make this issue something he created by replacing the nut?
Nope. The nut is cut correctly and in line with the end of the fretboard.
Interesting... Thanks for also discussing a solution. Sounds like thick nuts are the go! lol
Right!
Great video. If Gibson charged more exorbitant amounts of money for their guitars then. maybe they could get it right.
Exactly.
17.817 or the rule of 8 will give you the exact fret spacing that you need for intonation. I use this divider on all the necks that I built. It works for any scale from a ukulele to a giant Mexican acoustic. I will let you know how much you're off.
Yes, I remember that formula from my guitar building days.
I just checked my 2008 LP and 2020 SG and they are correct. Thought they were all built from the same templates?
Thanks for the comment! Somebody pointed out, rightly so, that it was probably a temporary CNC error.
You have opened a giant family size can of worms! The correct nut position is so critical and at the same time not an absolute measurement because so many other factors come into play, like nut height, how the nut slot is slanted, the fatness and height of the frets etc. A well installed “zero fret” eliminates many of those issues.
Can of worms is right. Excellent points.
I will be measuring mine and let you know.
Gibson - Rule# 1 - when you setup a machine , CNC or otherwise , you take the result of the machining process and verify it's accuracy BEFORE YOU RUN OFF A THOUSAND NECKS and you statistically spot check product to make sure nothing has moved in the production process. This is basic statistical quality control 101 rules.
Agreed! Shouldn't have happened.
Two kinds of Gibson, those with a broken headstock and those that will have a broken headstock.
Ouch!
Only for careless hacks.
LedHed Pb 207.20 🎶 🎸 🎹
Check-out "Compensated Nuts in a Nutshell" (Guitar repair @ StringTech Workstations) If you watch even a few of this guy's You Tube videos, he explains why the limitations of the normal guitar nut can be substantially removed to improve intonation all along the neck. Yes, I've been making intonation adjustments based on the open string/12th fret harmonic comparison for years, but his comparisons of other fretted notes compared to their octave 12 frets higher really shows the advantage of a compensated nut (and bridge saddle too, on acoustics)!
Wild, the shop is literally an hour away from me. Thanks for that.
‘Course if the nut slots are too high, it won’t intonate nicely whatever, but even if adjusted very well, some nuts just are not in the best place.
If you measure from the edge of the nut and to where the string rests on the frets, on every fret, you should get a more correct result. I'm not saying that there isn't anything wrong with the guitar, but it's better to do it correct... 🤷
Doesn't account for fret wear. I measured resonant points for the string - leading edge of the nut to the center of the first fret. Then measured the following frets edge to edge - which is exactly the same as measuring center to center but far more efficient.
No, the business card idea is much better, because it produces a set of marks that get slightly closer together, with any discrepancies showing up as an uneven gap.
The client needs to send it to Gibson
He bought it used.
I heard this was a common problem found in Chibsons. Does that mean that they're getting dangerously close to the real thing, specs-wise? 🙃
Is the guitar in the video actually a fake, then, and no one has realised?
I bought a brand spanking new les paul standard for my son. And then frets needed leveling and the string height at the nut was all over the place. A would be lower then the others, g would be higher than the rest of them, ect. And for $2900 that's completely insane. My dean or kiesel which were much cheaper did not come screwed up like that. Maybe gibson should put that money into qc instead of lawsuits!
It did cross my mind that the problems on my guitar weren't accidental. I still find it hard to believe that Gibson could be that sloppy.
Spot on, it will never play in tune with first position chords like that.
Exactly.
You don't need to measure. You can see with the naked eye that the first fret is too far from the nut.
Good eye.
I saw the discrepancy before you even started talking or measuring, and said; That needs a zero fret.
So, what would a PLEK machine do with that and what does Gibson say? A lot of money to not have the basics right!
Good points!
CNC machines and indeed Plek machines are only as good as the program and the programmer.
AGREED
Right!
You've measured it wrong! Please don't cut the fretboard or someone will be very unhappy including you! Measure from the nut to the centre of the first fret and then the center of each fret and it will be fine I promise you. You have miscalculated half a fret and that's the problem. Try your measuring method on other guitars and it will come up with the same problem - With respect - It's you!
With respect, I disagree. I measured resonant points for the string - leading edge of the nut to the center of the first fret. Then measured the following frets edge to edge - which is exactly the same as measuring center to center but far more efficient. The guitar will be fine once it's corrected.
I measured my PRS the way you did it and came up with the same result. so, by that system all guitars are off. I remeasured going from nut to center first fret, then, center first to center second, second center to third center, etc and my lines came out perfect. respecfully, your method is incorrect.
do a zero fret!
I hate that corian stuff. Soundwise it's OK but firstly, it chips really easily and also, it's quite sticky with the strings. Bone, plastic or Graph Tech is better.
The problem you are showing in the video is a common one and especially with Gibsons but don't get me started on Gibson. That's why I have Heritage. This problem is why sometimes a cheap guitar will sound good but an expensive one with this flaw won't. Use a tuner and notice serious tuning flaws from open and fretted. There is actually no exactly correct placement because one way will put some open strings further out and the other way vice versa but it needs to be in the right general ballpark. In fact some would say it needs to be slightly closer to the first fret than the correct mathematical placement.
And another one is that sometimes that cut at the nut isn't even parallel to the first fret. How they can mess this up I don't know. Surely this is cut on machinery that measures correctly.
I seriously wonder if Gibson do this stuff deliberately like putting 300k pots in that dull the sound compared to 500k. Then when you go to a shop the custom shop models always sound better. I'm serious because otherwise why do these sorts of things.
JC has some explaining to do
bud if your just now learning this.......good lord !!!
Nope, not my first rodeo. Just making a point.
I just checked my American made music man stingray and both my PRS’s made in America, Dead “Nuts” on the money! As great as a Gibson Les Paul sounds , their quality control is not up to par anymore! If I were to purchase a Les Paul , it would be from the heritage company!
Yep! Some are on spec and some aren't.
I can't believe your going to take a Dremel or router to that nut slot? There has to be an aftermarket nut or compinsated nut that can be fitted to the existing slot without modifying the guitar husk. Couldn't you just make a custom nut that uses the existing slot and hangs over onto the fretboard a little bit? You'd never know the difference? Why hack into that delicate part of the guitar, and risk chunking out the fretboard?
Believe it or not, I've done this before.
@@guitar-niche It's not rocket science, no. If that's what the guy wants? Rock on! I'm constantly tearing apart brand new guitars, and most people think I'm crazy for it? Maybe we're not as easily amused with stuff, and if your anything like me, "stock" or "factory" built guitars are boring actually. I've become an even bigger guitar geek than the average guitar geek! I actually prefer practicing and playing on some of my more affordable guitars that have been souped up. They do things "normal" guitars can't. People usually assume they're top of the line, high end guitars costing well over $1000. Then when they get up close they realize it's all entry level stuff, just dialed in to the max. Guitars are fun!
You never use harmonics to intonate unless you want your guitar to be inaccurate. You can be off as much as 10-20 cents using a harmonic without ever realizing it.
Interesting! And where does this knowledge come from?
looks like there's room for a zero fret
Almost. I'll have to document the exact specs and post the fix for it.
YEP. I AGREE.ZERO FRETS SHOULD BE INSTALLED IN EVERY GUITER
Shocking that this issue is present on a Gibson USA guitar that Gibson are charging a lot of money for, no wonder they filed for bankruptcy before their former CEO, Mr Jeskowitz was replaced.
Nut not fingered! frets are: string may be tightened, slightly,
my advice : play a keyboard!
PS, Handmade = some employee`s going to care, more than other`s ? but Gibson, have to have, Diverse workforce, = handmade item, by same person!
Country A.
next day, Country B.
= will quality be any different ?
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were either really drunk or really stoned when you wrote that pile of gibberish!
Also you got to remember set the bass strings are going to need more length than the treble strings it has to be an average if you chop off the end of the fingerboard you could create way more troubles than what you want to deal with I think
No, the adjustment for intonation is made at the bridge.
I see you have the same left hand fingernails that I do.
Well I got the same measurement issue with a 20 yo mexican strat.
Ouch!
Wouldn't happen on a PRS.
You may be right.
Yamaha makes great guitars.
Not a fan of Gibson or Fender.