CLASSIC VS. MODERN | And the Case for Consolidation
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- More so than any other in the fanbase, the Classic Vs. Modern debate has galvanized fans into all-out battles of opinions that leave the fanbase in shambles. In today's essay, we'll go into the history of the debate, and the Consolidation Method... a solution which may very well have many benefits, but likely won't be a particularly popular choice.
MUSIC:
"UNDERTOW TO LEATOW" by Andy Tunstall
ocremix.org/rem...
"SHIFTING ISLANDS" by halc, Miearth and PROTO·DOME
ocremix.org/rem...
"TAIKAL DRUM 'n' RAGGA" by MkVaff
ocremix.org/rem...
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Fantastic image of Saturn-style Sonic by SupaFloop:
supafloop.devia...
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/ thekazeblade
I wholeheartedely agree with you KazeBlade! 10 years ago this whole Classic vs. Modern debate didn't even exist. Growing up in the 90s was a glorious time for a Sonic fan, because this didn't even cross our minds, we were just enjoying playing Great games. And when Sonic Adventure games came about, we didn't separate the 2, we appreciated both of them. To get to that golden age of Sonic again, Sega must abandon EVERYTHING regarding classic and modern sonic, and just focus on Sonic again, and making good games instead of trying to please everybody in 1 game
sad thing is that they could please everyone if they weren't so stubborn and try to mix everything.
yes make sonic the hedgehog, no more classic, no more modern, just sonic, i would give him a little redsign, make his body a little more rounded, somethig like ADX or A2, but not to the point of his body being a sphere.
and use him for all the gameplay styles, the classic momentum sidescroller gameplay we all know and love, the adventure momentum 3d gameplay we know and love, and the hallway reflex obstacle boost game we know and love.
but make one formula as the focus for each game, what i mean? they can alternate the gameplay for each game but if they decide to do one game with classic gameplay, let that be the focus of the game(like mania but with modern asthetics)) if its going to be adventure gameplay, that must be the focus of that game, same with boost, but do not combine the 2 gameplays in one game, and like that they will have the classic, the boost and the adventure fanbase satisfied
"I dont care man, I just want a good Sonic Game." -SomeCallMeJohnny
The Sonic Series has a ton of untapped potential that it'll probably never meet. Modern needs some kind of identity in the future that resonates with what made Sonic great in the first place, while also advancing things so the series doesn't come off as stale. But I do like the sentiment of there being no Modern or Classic Sonic... just Sonic. I think that'd a big step towards Sonic Team's jobs being less of a hassle.
And yes. Them shoes are _ugggggg-lay._ Lol.
Yes. Consolidation has always been my stance on this issue. There's no reason why a 2D game has to use completely different sprites/models simply because it has Classic gameplay. That being said, I don't think they should fuse the designs of Classic & Modern Sonic, I think they should just stick with Modern Sonic's design. The reason I say this is because Modern Sonic was literally designed an as evolution of Classic Sonic. His design took elements of Classic Sonic and just updated them for a new era, so taking that design and then refusing it with Classic Sonic again just feels like re-diluting an already diluted drink, just my two cents.
premydaremy isn't that what SEGA is already doing with Modern Sonic?
i agree that modern sonic is the natural evolution of classic sonic and we shouldn't go back cause it would be like if nintendo just redesign mario to look more like mario world counterpart, small feet, fat, and awkward, i mean classic and modern sonic already look very much like each other, they are sonic the hedgehog duh, the only difference between them is the eye color, the tone of blue they have and the fact that one is taller than the other, also personally i find the classic model hidious in 3D, i don't know if its because sonic team's failure to have a cool design for him or making him feel more as a character instead of a lifeless robot or what but, i don't like it.
that being said tho, i think that sonic should have a little redsign, nothing major just a couple of twiks here and there. i don't know if this is my adventure fanboy talking, i don't think so since my favorite 3d sonic game is heroes, but i think the model should look something like the Adventure Dx model or adventure 2 model, his body was a bit rounded there but not to the point of actually looking like a 360 sphere like the horrible classic model, i believe thats it, thats actually the only twik i would give him, not even a couple, well i would give him the shoes of adventure 2 or adventure Dx but i take them or leave them tbh.
The All Knowing Noodle can you give us a link?
Classic sonic >>>>>> Modern sanic
@The All Knowing Noodle its allright, i still think the model looks very arcaic and simple, the rig work is outstanding tho, but still i dont like it
You have a lot of backlash because you have to bravery to both show reverence to Sonic but also can be objective and critical when Sonic and his creators can't live up to their own previously high standards (Sonic Team in 2018 is not the same Sonic Team from 1991-9). You're not a Fanboy who pledges loyalty blindly, you are the only one with the cajones to keep it real. You always articulate your points well and are fair and sensible in your approach. Some people just can't handle bold declarations that pull the curtain from over their eyes. Stay up, stay strong and do your thing.
Interesting take, for sure. Seeing a more unified approach would certainly be great, but I worry Sonic Team would just grab all the worst elements and make those the core, identifiable and definitive "Sonic". I don't hope for that, of course, but that would be my fear. I just want consistently GOOD Sonic games again. Mania gave me that, and yes Sonic 3&K is my favourite game of all time, but a 3D Sonic game done well could have made me just as happy.
They already did this with Sonic 4 and Lost World I find it insane that he doesn't bring those up, that's Sonic Team's idea of consolidation.
@@GunFeverr cause those are bad or mediocre, or both.
besides he did mentioned sonic 4.
I just want good Sonic games, as simple as that. :)
This video is exactly what Sonic needed overall. You've eloquently nailed each point better than I ever could. People like you are the only ones I can relate and listen to on a serious note when it comes to topics like these. It's nice to be able to talk about Sonic without someone getting extremely defensive.
How on earth Sega decided to make classic sonic a recurring character in the modern games is beyond me. "Sonic Forces isn't a Generation 2" yeah...
I was ok as a gimmick for the anniversary game but nothing else.
Makes total sense to have only Sonic no classic or modern stuff however I don't mind having different series of sonic games doing different things just like Mario. Mario has the 3D big budget titles but also has Paper Mario or the new super Mario series. So I'd still like to see Whitehead's games living along side 3D titles as long as they don't overlap.
What has to be done is to not treat these games as classic or modern titles but just as Sonic games and the secret is "simply" to make GREAT games, then all is good.
Kaz, I wish you were machine who could pump out videos weekly. Because you seriously are one of the most underrated tubers Ive seen.
I couldn't have said it any better, man.
No more Classic, No more Modern...Just Sonic.
You may have confused a lot of people, but I'm not one of them.
That made a lot of sense to me. I just wish more people where on board with this.
Ipskrimson Krimson Amy would agree to that!
Its an idea with some merit, but I get the sense that Sega simply sees more immediate financial value in separation, at least for now. Mania has subtly shifted into simply being its own brand now, complete with animated spin-offs and even inclusion of seemingly "classic" characters (the Hooligans, Mighty, Ray). With Sonic Boom slowly fading away as a subdivision of Sonic, Mania is starting to feel like its being re-positioned as its possible replacement. With the lack of voice acting, hand drawn animation style, and specific character aesthetics, its identity is growing beyond merely Sonic with classic physics and stages.
Sonic Team's immediate response to the feedback for Forces is also up in the air too. Given the consistently negative talk about Classic Sonic's inclusion in it, the most predicable reaction could very well be an inclination to keep him as far away from 3D Sonic games as they can, meaning the can of any potential consolidation is kicked even further down the road.
Overall Sega may view a brand separation as the thing in future Sonic games that does allow them to focus both gameplay and presentation in a more defined direction for each, as well as be less risky/difficult than having a broad series of games that hypothetically appeal to everyone.
I agree with most points minus the consolidated design part. I would contend that changing sonic YET AGAIN is a horrible PR move that would FURTHER conflict the fanbase instead of merge it like you assume. So now we'd have, classic, dreamcast, modern, boom, and new fusion sonic. I'm completely fine with Mania being to Sonic as Paper Mario is to Mario. If both modern and Classic are producing good games, the franchise will consolidate on its own. Gameplay > pleasing fans anyday
It'd be nice if this happened, Kazeblade.
Fact of the matter is, Modern Sonic needs better quality than what he's been getting. If that weren't the case, we wouldn't have this problem!
While everyone is arguing Classic vs Modern, I feel like I'm the only person who likes most Sonic games (even if some are more flawed than others), regardless of style...
(I posted this comment before watching the video) To be honest, I don't mind what type of play style Sonic goes with, as long as the game's good, I'm happy.
I'd totally be okay with this approach, but honestly I don't think Sonic's issues are due to the attempts to cater to specific fan groups, and I think they have more to due with Sonic Team / SEGA'S own behavior as a developer / publisher.
Take Sonic Forces for instance. They said that that game was in development for four years, but then it turned out that most of that time was spent developing the Hedgehog Engine 2, and only one year was actually spent working on the game. The project leads being complete amateurs also didn't help.
Contrast that with Sonic Mania, which had both an experienced development team and two years of development time, and the difference is obvious.
Pretty much every bad Sonic game can be traced back to this type of poor behavior on their end. The reason Sonic 4 was bad? They made Dimps use Rush's engine, which was not built for Classic-style play. '06? Rushed development, forced to develop on next-gen consoles which they were not yet familiar with, and half the team left to develop Secret Rings.
Let's not even get started on what happened to Sonic Boom...
Finally someone said it, this has been on my mind for a while now as well.
There is no need for the Classic VS Sonic debate, just make Sonic one character again not one of the two and focus the games on one gameplay style. Just like it was before Sonic 4. If Sonic Mania would've used the say Sonic Advance designs it wouldn't change the quality of the game because the visuals *do not* impact that.
I wish that we could go back to the time that we just had one type of Sonic with spinoffs that can experiment or please the 2D fanbase but a focussed gameplay style for the main games. I really liked this approach because all the expiremental ideas could go to spinoff games and often times they were fun because these ideas didn't have to share gameplay styles or other non-relevant stuff like that and could be used to the fullest. Good examples are Sonic Battle, the Storybook games, Sonic Rush, the Riders series etc.
For design I am leaning towards modern Sonic but it does need a redesign that reflects the direction the games will take... and I think a new design is long due, kinda tired of the Unleashed design by now.
The design at 12:45 was amazing, I'd love for that to become the new design.
I wish it had eye color
Mani Davis Agreed, I think Sonic's green eyes are an important part of his character. The only reason the classic design didn't have eye color was probably due to hardware restrictions. But to me Colored eyes are more appealing and have more personality.
While I can agree the visuals of Mania don't take away from it's overall quality, speaking for me personally, it does take away from me enjoying it as much as I want to. I grew up in the Classic era but I consider myself to be an Adventure fan. Despite how good Sonic Mania is, it's visuals make me have to remind myself I'm playing a new game rather than an old one. And after a certain point I would just rather go back to Sonic 2(my personal favorite of the Classics) because at least then I don't have to have that reminder constantly in the back of my head, because Sonic 2(and by extension, Sonic 1 and 3K) being 8-bit to me is more justifiable than Mania. Part of me still wishes the Mania team took the time to use a unique art-style for gameplay to make it stand out more. Like for example, using Tyson's art style for the aesthetic of the game overall. Even that Sonic 2 HD fan game uses a different art style, which I would say that alone makes me want to play that over the original if it was a full game.
Since Mania is more old stages than new, that to me would make going through those old stages feel more like a new experience. I also feel the visuals are one of the reasons Classic in Generations was well received, despite the gameplay not perfectly mirroring the Classics. After Generations, an ideal future Classic game to me would of stuck with visuals on par with Generations to make the levels feel that much more fresh and new.
End of the day, these are just my personal gripes with Mania. To put it into perspective, Mania to me (but to a lesser extent) is like if a new Adventure style game used the same visuals from the era it came from, rather than full on modern graphics.
Mick Jason, sonic adventure was a reboot? then why did they reference 3&K in the story? i don't think it was a reboot, and honestly i wouldn't take anything that Izuka says for granted, since he is the kind of guy that would invent excuses on Q to sell a story. just look at forces he said that classic sonic was there cause he was going to be important and that it isn't generations 2.0, while its clear that the game isn't generations 2.0 cause a generations sequel would be at the very least a good game, but forces feels more like a lost word and colors had a son. but he completely lied on classic sonic's importance.
Honestly, Sonic as a series, as a franchise needs a complete overhaul/reboot. The whole world building aspect of this franchise is a complete mess. Too many continuity errors. Iizuka has pretty much ruined the Sonic continuity in it's entirety. So I propose that a reboot, a reboot where Sonic and his friends live on a planet among humans AND mobians. Redesign the characters and fuse their modern and classic counterparts together. Gameplay should be like a 3D classic Sonic game. A 3D open world Sonic game with momentum based physics and platforming.
•Redesign characters and fuse their modern and classic counterparts together
•reboot where sonic and his friends live on a planet among humans and mobians
• gameplay should be like a 3D classic game. A 3D open world with momentum based physics and platforming
So basically adventure 1...
This is really interesting. At first glance it appears to be a video on the merits of each gameplay style, but it turns out to be a video contemplating the issues of introducing this divide period. It's such a clever twist on expectation that calling it "clickbait" would be completely underselling it's genius. I'm going with "subverting expectations to get the right parties to watch."
When I was a kid, it was just Sonic. All the "modern and classic" labels were never there. I looked at Sonic 3 and Sonic heroes as the same Sonic, because it IS the same Sonic. These labels people use for Sonic are a poison that's been killing the franchise even further. The worst is that it's being attacked from the inside, the own fans are at a constant civil war and it's agonizing. I just want my favorite game character to return to being what he was when I was little, not something worth hating other people over...
Eh. It's easy to think the discourse is bad now, but it was SOOOOO much worse almost decade ago. People can still be vicious now, but I'm surprised by how much better they are at articulating what they want Sonic to be than they (or rather, we) were back in the project needlemouse days.
Regarding Sonic Mania's financial success:
I know you said that it really had to do with it being a good game but I would argue that that's only part of it (though an essential part). I feel like it was the fact that Mania was effectively a "rehash" of the classic games that got the attention of former Sonic fans (people who hopped off the Sonic franchise over a decade ago) and the critical praise that Mania got is what solidified purchases. Personally, I don't believe it would've been as successful if general audiences were hearing that it was a well-made "modern" title, seeing as how 3D Sonic has been written off as a failure by these same people.
Great essay; I really love your work.
To be honest, I think this perception that Sonic needs Critical praise from game reviewers is flawed.
Sonic Mania sold a little over 1 million even with the Plus re-release.
While a game like Sonic Rush sold over 3 Million, and Sonic Heroes Sold over 6 Million, Unleashed (all 4 console versions) 4 Million.
I'd say Critics are more so helpful towards games that rely on word of mouth, but those games are very rarely BIG numbered successes.
Mania is probably the best thing the Sonic series has going for itself right now...but it would've been better if it didn't rely on nostalgia pandering and game critics because SEGA didn't want to take on the risk of spending a decent budget on Mania (it's no secret it's a low budget title).
I mean while in our gaming sphere Mania is well known, ever since it came out I barely have met anyone that has mentioned it if I'm honest.
And when I was playing it when it came out, my dad thought I just paid money for the same Sonic game he played back in 91' (that's not a compliment).
Even Forces managed to outsell Mania, despite being really medicore.
And I think it's because Forces at least had a concept and was selling itself off of that, which grabbed people's interest (it didn't execute upon that concept if I'm honest).
While Mania delivered on a more fundamental level, it was executed better, but sold itself on some superficial values that people in the gaming community encourage for some reason (nostalgia, overtly innocent and "Pure").
You're right in saying that producing a decent game regardless of Sonic's iteration would drown out a lot of the noise between the splintered groups. People appreciate good quality when they see it. I'm personally pretty biased against boost games for several reasons but I'm eternally curious about how a full 3D title with no gimmicky bullshit would look in action, especially with there being a number of fans creating reputable games/engines of their own.
In the event of a consolidation, the next debate would likely be around his design and attitude. I could live with any Sonic design within reason but, as a staunch supporter of Toei Sonic, the pseudo-cool dorky modern Sonic cringes me inside out. I will fight anyone on that front to the death; modern Sonic's personality needs to die.
BushyRoyal
I actually kinda enjoyed Sonic’s appearance and attitude from Adventure to Heroes as well as Modern Sonic’s in 06 and Unleashed. But from Colors onwards, his design became ugly and generic, and in Lost World and Forces his animation became outright cheap and lazy; Simply look back at the animation of body language and how enunciations roll off characters’ mouths in Unleashed (even in spite of spotty lip sync), then look at the animations in Forces.
Also, whereas Sonic’s attitude from Adventure to Unleashed came off to me as a neutral cockiness, his attitude in Colors onwards comes off to me as a failed stand-up comedian who won’t stop firing off unfunny quips every 5 seconds.
I don't even know how SEGA still has money to keep developing Sonic games with all their recent loses.
Just a slight comment on Mario in Mario 64 being the same Mario as in Paper Mario - Paper Mario and the Mario in the Mario & Luigi RPG series are differnet Marios from parallel universes; one of the Mario & Luigi games is a crossover between the two.
As for the rest of the video - Ultimately it comes down to something that Sega communicated quite concisely when working on Mario vs Sonic At The Olympic Games - they're expression of being surprised by how protective Nintendo were over Mario and how he could be depicted in Mario vs Sonic. Your recent pillar suggestion has the same fundamental issue, for me, as this consolidation idea.
Namely - I'm just not convinced Sega are good enough at brand management with Sonic to pull it off, both on making sure the games are quality enough to sell the idea to us, and on a communicating exactly what they're doing - We're never going to get anything as concise and easy to understand statement of vision of the franchise or a game in it from Sega or Sonic Team as the Nintendo of Japan's tweet in the build up to Odyssey of a timeline of 3d Mario games, 64 and Sunshine on one side of the timeline, Galaxy, Galaxy 2, 3d Land and 3d World on the other, with Odyssey on the same side as 64 and Sunshine. I think they labelled the sides of the timeline as two different styles of game. A chart simply and concisely communicating that there are two styles of 3d Mario, and this is the first game in the 64/Sunshine style since 2002. And without that level of clarity? Whatever they do going forward will be a confusing mess leading to rifts.
I mean, if they were good at brand management they wouldn't need to repair anything, Sonic 06 would have been delayed until 07 or 08 to let the game be polished up so that it was actually playable, the Advance/Rush stuff would still be going, rendering the need for 4 obsolete, we might have gotten Mania and if we had have done it's majority returning stages wouldn't have been as controversial since while it would have been a throwback there was something similar enough that a lack of original stage aesthetics wouldn't have felt as much like a wasted opportunity, and the crossing streams of Generations would have been a celebration of all of Sonic that got the physics of classic Sonic spot on, or at least used whatever the current 2d physics would have been at the time, since there would have been a direct reference point for how 2d Sonic should play like that could have been used to base it off of, and the game would have had enough lead time to make sure it felt right, but dear lord please hire someone who's solely responsible for managing this brand. If one man (Satoru Shibata) could turn Nintendo of Europe from a burning pile of trash to a respectable branch of Nintendo, I'm sure that Sonic as a brand can, you know, be cohesive again.
tl;dr Nice idea on paper, and not incompatible with pillars even, but I don't think Sega have the brand management chops to pull it off.
This whole thing reminds me of a quote by Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw: "Fans are clingy, complaining, dipshits who will never ever be happy with any concessions you make, and the sooner you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices, the happier you'll be for it."
To me, I think the most major problem with Sonic is Sega itself. Sega has made some terrible business decisions and Sonic Team as a needs to be changed. The producer and team leader of Sonic Team needs to resign, focus on the story, make fan polls, and take notes from Nintendo.
2 years later, I'm pretty sure that 90% of the fanbase actually agrees with the "No more Classic, no more Modern, just Sonic" mentality.
Well, people are gonna be upset with this too, but the Adevnture games were the only 3D sonic games that took what worked in 2D sonic and transferred it to 3D. If you want to TRULY get rid of Modern vs Classic, then go back to what included the best aspects of both, the Adventure formula. But if we go back to the Adventure formula it needs to 1.Be SONIC ONLY and if you include other characters, make them play BASICALLY LIKE SONIC like Tails and Knuckles in Adventure 1. The ONLY stages should be adventure stages. And 2.Fix the control scheme. Do these 2 things and you please both sides
i disagree with the adventure games having sonic only also if your gonna have other playable characters and they play just like sonic then whats the point of even adding them
I think we're way past consolidation at this point. Mania already established that Classic can and will survive on its own and the gameplay it brings along with it. It would just be wrong to say, "Nah, let's go back to how it was pre-Sonic Mania" when fans were led to believe the opposite. And the more vocal Classic fans will certainly have a bone to pick with this approach.
While this does squander the possibility of expanding upon the Classic 2D games with Modern sensibilities (The Advance series and Rush games), we are at the point of no return. SEGA sees big bucks in keeping Modern and Classic separate, and since they're a company (And companies like to make money btw) they will most certainly stick to it.
I hear your arguments and you make good points, that the fanbase might not be mature enough to handle multiple Sonics
However, I still hold hope for the separation method.
Like how we got a good proper and focused Classic Sonic game with Mania, and how Boom has focused on just being a funny TV show, I think the next thing we really need is a good, proper, focused all 3D Modern Sonic game
And when it has it’s 3 concrete pillars well established and positively recieved so Sonic can just be a good video game franchise instead of the laughing stock of the internet, then, they can try getting experimental again when the franchise is in a healthier place, like Mario.
As someone who hates putting up with redesigns of characters I used to like coughLaraCroftcough, I have my apprehensions about going all in on the consolidation method.
As for what kind of Modern 3D Sonic game they can do
Just do the one thing they haven’t tried yet
Sonic Adventure 1, with Sonic Heroes’s level progression (Just going from stage to stage with a cutscene in the beginning and end) and have everyone play the same with their own little gimmick.
Honestly, I could go for a new redesign right about now. No more classic & modern being separate entities, screw that noise. Just use one design in all the games. 2D, 3D, classic, boost, it's all the same damn hedgehog so why argue over how long his dang quills are or some stupid nonsense like that? Screw that!
We need good games dangit! 2D & 3D!
I wasn't aware this was an unpopular opinion. I thought everyone wanted this.
Really, really proud of this video. I wasn't sure at first at what to think. Usually when I see these types of videos, there's a clear one-sided bias that leads Sonic in the same toxic direction its been heading since Sonic 4. You see, one thing you didn't point out is how Generations also added even WORSE fuel to the fire. It took Sonic and split him into two characters side by side. Anyone with common sense would simply see them as Past and Future Sonic, with the eras of stages being just time period. But after Generations, it created this idea that Sonic is multiple characters. That Classic Sonic is a separate character from Sonic, and that his design is so much better because of blind nostalgia. SONIC IS JUST SONIC. When you said that, that's how I knew you understood what you were talking about. Too many people fall into the trap of believing Sonic's quality is determined by what era he represents. When in reality, the quality spectrum is general, the gameplay spectrum depends on execution, and Sonic as a character is one entity. In the past, it was always this way. "Modern" Sonic's design was literally just an evolution of Sonic's old design. Not some whole new character they created. They never abandoned Sonic himself. He EVOLVED. No one says this nonsense with Mario or ANY OTHER GAMING series but its so crazy to me Sonic fans can't understand this.
*heavy sigh* Apology for the stupid lengthy comment. But I just needed to add that as note you can keep in mind. Good video nonetheless.
We need to send this to Sonic Team, this is exactly what Sonic needs to do to become great again.
I don't think this would ultimately change much, if anything at all. At least in the internet circles I'm familiar with, people already mostly focus on the what their preference for Sonic's gameplay is, while the way Sonic is portrayed seldom comes up. When people say they only want Classic Sonic, they mean a game in the style of the Genesis games, and not that Sonic just needs to look like he did on the Mega Drive, although those people often do like that character design the best. Same with "Modern Sonic" meaning the boost gameplay and "Adventure Sonic" meaning the gameplay in the style of Sonic levels from the Adventure games.
I do think that being consistent with Sonic's depiction could be beneficial for Sega from a branding perspective, but I don't think it would put a stop to fan debates.
A very nice video essay, definitely agree with what you said
YES THAAAAANK YOU! I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOREVER! It just makes so much more sense to have one Sonic. It would be easier to market, as when the public see Sonic, they know who it is, and there is so confusion if it's modern or classic. One Sonic means constincency within the franchise, one design, and one personality. Just like Mario, they can use that Sonic design for different types of games, 2d or 3d, just like Mario. But I disagree with you on one point, which is actually changing the design of Sonic. I think the Sonic design use int smash Bros is perfect and it captures his cockiness an personality so well with some of the animations. But this is just my opinion. I probably am not smart enough to make a massive desicion on this series. But this is just my 2 cents. Great video, it really made me think.
If Sonic Team are going to make a 3D Sonic game again, I want it to be fully 3D this time. No 2D segments, no Classic-pandering, just commit to the vision and focus on making a 3D Sonic game. Not Modern Sonic for Modern People, not some self-aware memefest that has to point out all of its past shortcomings, just a pure, unadulterated, energetic Sonic The Hedgehog game.
My problem with Classic vs Modern is that it's a product of the meta nature of the 2010's. The characteristics of Classic Sonic nowadays reflects how a lot of people on the internet see him. He's a mute little kid who's exclusively 2D in Generations and Forces despite Sonic in his older design being in 3D games (3D Blast, Fighters, R) and he spoke all the time in cartoons and the OVA. I noticed that a lot of companies take what people say online way too close to heart. Yes, hearing constructive criticism from fans can help make for improvement, but reacting to nitpickers and following rules laid out by people who don't even understand a movie or game will mislead you into producing a mess of a product; I mean, just look at last year's Beauty and the Beast remake. I agree with not keeping Sonic as two separate entities. We need to keep him as one solid character. More importantly, we need to ignore the haters and cooperate with the more positive side of the fanbase, which I'm confident is the majority.
*Giant post incoming*
You've got some very great points there.
I especially like the design-crosssover between Classic and Modern; maybe even something else?
To be honest, I do not care at all what gameplay style a (Sonic) game is, as long as it's fun to control and the level-design's tethered to that very gameplay style.
My first Sonic game was Sonic Heroes, so I'm kind of "in the middle" here.
Heroes could've been a bit tighter, esp. so that the "Power" characters don't fall off a cliff when attacking (and boy oh boy the Special Stages >_
If we are talking about this from a purely aesthetic perspective then I’ll say I don’t really like modern Sonic’s design just kind of inherently. I’ve always felt that Sonic should have had a redesign that want that big of a departure from classic just to give the games a sense of cohesion so I’m happy that we both agree there. I get that they HAD to redesign Sonic for 3D (I don’t care what anyone says, classic sonic models from the 90s look strange and wouldn’t have been anymore pleasing for the Dreamcast), but they should have allowed for certain classic traits remain consistent.
info.sonicretro.org/images/1/13/SA1_earlySonic_conceptart.png
^ this is how I’ve always thought sonic should look like starting with sonic adventure.
100% agree. STOP ALL THE CONFUSION AND JUST HAVE ONE SONIC!
That being said, I'm one of the incredibly few who kinda want to see SEGA continue to 'experiment' with Sonic. I sometimes wonder if the age rating has something to do with all this chaos. I'd be interested if SEGA actually went with a different turn; evolve their dialogue from crappy jokes only 7 year olds can laugh at and maybe go with a more 'mature' feel, like what Forces was believed to be when information first came out about it. (No, I don't mean for it to go GTA mode and go full swearing and death at every corner). Granted, it's a stupid idea and SEGA should just focus on making at least ONE great game to bring the franchise back at full force.
Again, I know it's a stupid idea, but I can't help but wonder just how big the changes would be if the games weren't so focused on it's young audience.
Good video.
Finally someone discussed about this ongoing civil war in the Sonic fanbase.
However there are some things that I would like to point out, both personal points of view and gripes:
1) I think that Mania was a success in terms of reception, but saleswise ?
I don't think so... it sold over 1 million of copies......on ALL platforms.
2) The 2018 SXSW Panel was literally just about Classic Sonic, as you pointed out.
Sure, they showed a 20 seconds teaser trailer for Sonic Racing, but that was it.
Sonic Mania Plus and Sonic Mania Adventure were basically the main focus of the entire panel, ZERO information about Modern Sonic, they barely talked about Forces, I mean...can't really blame them, but still.
I already bought Sonic Mania in November, and I'm definitely not gonna buy Plus, I know they are desperate for money, but I don't want to spend MORE money for some additional content, but that's just me.
3) This may be a bit off topic, but I would like to point this out anyway:
You said that Mario is seen as Mario in all games, Spin offs and so on, which is true but...the closest thing that separated two Marios (Mario and Paper Mario) is Mario & Luigi Paper Jam on the Nintendo 3DS.
4) Agreed about making pillars in order to please the majority of the fanbase.
They need to make a good game, they shouldn't be trying to please every possible part of the fanbase with ONE GAME. It's not possible for any videogame franchise, let alone Sonic.
With that being said, nice job.
You gotta admit Mania was definitely more of a success than Lost World and Boom, combined.
+Adam10150
DUH.
But that's not saying much.
Also character designs characterization and visual design is subjective. Like gameplay. And " removing " those things wont fix the problem... people will just argue about new shit. The fact that you see key things like visual design as not needed gameplay stuff shows that ... you don't understand what it takes to make video games. And you might even understand why sonic has maintained its popularity in the first place. Its visual design.
The idea that you can simply remove and replace that , is silly, and something you need to consider when making videos like these. It comes off as robotic, not eltist , but as someone who doesn't actually understand what goes into making a video game. People are payed to create the visual design of the games you make. And frankly its insulting to suggest that things can just be removed and its solves a problem. Visual design can make or break a video games, these tertiary " non game elements " make or break video games and are also important like gameplay
Honestly I think Mania still suffered from being of the Classic aesthetic, because the classic aesthetic completely held them back in terms of what they could do in terms of new mechanics, because the second they try and experiment with mechanic even a little bit, people immediately start saying "This isn't a classic game, it's an Advance game." When there should really be no reason that they can't experiment with the formula and bring new mechanics to the formula.
If Sonic was any other mascot after so many lukewarmly recieved games, he would have been dropped and left in limbo.
I feel like Izuka don’t really know WHAT IS SONIC THE HEDGEHOG GAME SERIES
i think they should alternate between classic sonic made by the mania team and modern sonic made like that modern game is possibly the last sonic game (as sega made unleashed great knowing that if it was not sonic would probably no longer exist) like a year after modern games will have classic and 1 year after that we will have modern giving 2 years to make a modern game on an existing engine with 2 year development time instead of 3 years work on an engine and 1 year on the rest of the game and 2 years to make a classic game that could be longer and better than mania with more original zones and possibly every few cycles a spinoff game that plays like the adventure games to satisfy all 3 sides of the sonic fanbase
I absolutely adored this. I feel it's one of your greatest essays to date. The idea of getting rid of Classic and Modern and keeping it just Sonic would be extremely effective, and I feel it would be the first step in unifying the fan base. Well worth the wait my man!
I disagree. I will probably get a lot of hate, because this entire comment section agrees with you, but i disagree. I think the artstyle and character design is as complicated and important as game quality - we can't just say that they should use one of the designs or fuse them, character design and artstyles are much more complex then that.
I ALWAYS liked your opinions, you put them in videos in a logical way that is easy to understand. Like me, you don't pick sides in the Sonic fan-base from the looks of it. I say you are a Sonic Guru of some sort. Keep up the the good work!
I agree with your "no more classic,no more modern, just sonic" statement, I feel that sonic needs a redesign a mix of both classic and modern. You can't have "just sonic" if sega established that both designs are different characters so if fans saw them using one of them they would say "why is classic sonic gone? Why are they using modern?" Or vice versa
Ya know. When you look at it from a general perspective Sonic has a specific issue that something like Mario doesn't. And it's pretty much what you said. (Era fanboying over looking at the merits of what each title did right.)
Of course, you still get a few elitist that say "Course Design Mario was better." Or, "Collectathon Mario was better" but in the end most fans are not split because of a focused structure. (For better or worse.)
Sonic is not a lucky franchise. And in many regards I blame the people who ran the franchise and all the confused supplement material.
Without at least a focus future on the franchise we are in this mess and now we have to ponder what to do or the franchise will implode on itself.
I use to think that it was a problem of eras being different. Though I think the problem is of execution and structure. Bringing up Sonic Mania it wasn't some shallow circle jerking of classic Sonic design.
It was a game that tried different things. And succeeded with flying colors.
Granted, I do agree that Mania went too hard on the nostalgia but even remixed stages had new concepts. New boss fights. NEW things.
Top that with a team that understood where they wanted to go and it's not a question of why Mania succeeded and why Forces didn't. (And no it's not because of Classic bias. ;))
I agree it wasn't a perfect gamr but that's not really the point anyways is it? I could care less what era they came from.
I love all the eras. Each had flaws but at least they stuck to some prior structure.(before Generations.)
I think Sonic Team just needs to stop focusing on the demands and think about carefully where to go. Obviously they won't but it's what Nintendo did and with great success.
I admit it's a delicate if very fragile balance but it can be done. (Colors,Generations,and Mania. All well respected generally. Keep in mind generally not universally.)
Overall, I love this essay piece dude. :)
I expected this to be a mechanical analysis but it's actually something different. I liked it a lot!
Great video dude, agree with so many of your points. Just stumbled upon you via Sonic Retro.
Ultimately I just want them to present us with a NEW and improved game experience (as well as a fresh new design) and put all the focus into making a good game. The franchise has taken so many turns over the years that it's natural that there will be sections of the fanbase enjoying a multitude of different experiences. But there shouldn't be such a clear defining point between classic and modern, it should just be sonic.
Agreed with pretty much everything, the classic vs. modern debates are really dumb to begin with and don't really do anything to distinguish what's good about the games so it would be a good start to just cut the whole thing entirely.
I mean, paper mario and mario are technically different characters. As see in paper jam
I think that using Modern Sonic in 2D gameplay and visa versa is fairly redundant. Classic was designed to look and feel good in a 2D space, going out of it's way to accent Sonic's ability to curl into a ball. The 3D titles are more about speed seeing as 3D gives a much better opportunity to show off, so elongating his limbs and spines is a no brainer for adapting to this different kind of game. Crossing the two over is contradicting the entire reason they were made the way they were and I see no value in doing so.
I mean, sure, the Advance games are by no means bad, and what I’m about to say has no bearing on the actual quality of the games. But Sonic's movements are so much less fitting in those games as they are in the classic games. His design is so loose that it doesn't give off the same sense of satisfaction that going fast did with his classic design.
On the other hand, Sonic Utopia, a fan project, while a great proof of concept, doesn't have nearly the same sense of flow in Sonic's movement as the Adventure games do in their respective games. Because classic Sonic was designed to work in a 2D space. And modern Sonic was designed to work in a 3D space.
You could even say the same about the redesign in the boost series. Sonic's proportions were exaggerated even more there to accent just how ridiculously fast he's going in those games. It works there because that's the focus, so his design enhances his movements. But when he isn't moving at ridiculously high speeds in a straight line it just looks wrong. Put boost Sonic into any scenario where he has to move around and it looks unsatisfactory. Boost Sonic was designed to work in the boost games, so his movements were only designed to look attractive when doing what the games were designed to play like.
But the fact that we even need to have this conversation at all just goes to show how horribly Sega has handled Sonic over the years. The fan base is more than splintered, it's fractured. Detrimentally so
I completely agree with this video and every idea that it entails.
We don't need classic Sonic
We don't need the two iterations of modern Sonic (Dreamcast and Boost)
We don't need boom Sonic
We don't need Archie Sonic
We don't need IDW Sonic
We don't need American box art Sonic
We don't need Japanese box art Sonic
We don't need UK comic Sonic
We don't need Underground Sonic
We don't need SatAM Sonic
We don't need OVA Sonic
We don't need X Sonic
We just need Sonic The Hedgehog
Your exactly right! Now explain exactly what Sonic the hedgehog is. Oh wait....
There is no definitive answer that's why there is a fractured identity idiot
I'm surprised you didn't talk about multiple characters considering that it's also a large part of the debate between classic fans and modern fans. Good video though.
clicked on this shit immediately
Another great video! While I don't get anywhere near as uppity about the games as the vast majority of fans I do have some feelings on all this. I think Sega needs to do one of two things;
1. Have two clearly separate lines of Sonic games, Classic and Modern (and possibly a third with Boom/spin offs). Over a 5 year cycle you could have three games released - year 1, Classic; year 2.5, spin-off/Boom; year 5, Modern. Have a dedicated team for each to make sure each gets its due.
Or,
2. Consolidate as you suggest, which just makes me feel even more strongly that a reboot is needed. A fresh start that says "from now on, THIS is Sonic." Of course this would depend on Sega/ Sonic Team giving the game the development time it needs without rushing/ cutting corners.
Given that more realistic depictions of Link and more cartoonish depictions of Link have coexisted in the Zelda series, there's no reason multiple depictions of Sonic can't coexist.
But your point on Sonic Mania's success was 100% correct. By the end of the day, Sonic just needs good games, regardless of "Classic," "Adventure," "Modern," or anything in-between.
You were keeping a good momentum until you brought up Sonic Mania which ended up sounding like an antithesis to your essay to me. Unifying the fanbase may make things better for us here sure but will that really help change the game design philosophy of the developers? Your argument does hold water, they recently tend to keep a close ear to the fanbase a wee too much, I feel. From a developer standpoint, they need to figure out the fundamentals and follow through with it just like heroes and the Adventure games did. Which are their own decisions to make. Putting the fanbase first before a game sounds like a mistake to me. It's a game first and the sentiment is echoed by the others wanting a competent game.
I agree your argument would eventually unite the fanbase and make things better.
But in terms of games, it feels like putting the cart before the horse to me and in a sense encouraging some of Sonic Team's reliances.
mechashadow
A pleasant surprise, I hadn’t expected to bump into you here, mecha. Though, I suppose seeing a fellow BSC fan at a Sonic tubers channel probably isn’t all that unusual, now is it?
And thanks for saving me the half hour my deconstructive essay comment would’ve taken to write. I love Kaze for his critical analysis and genuine spirit, but something did feel amiss here- in concept if not in sentiment.
CrimsonKing12000 I just feel like he is coming at this from the fanbase POV, which is why it gets the popular vote.
So I wanted to throw my 2 cents from the developer side of things, that is what I've done in the past.
Game design and such. If he had stuck to Sonic needed a unified identity for the sake of the IP, but bringing games in..when Mania debunks it?
It was harder getting to this channel than you'd think, a RUclipsr I met at a con recommended me the channel. And he wasn't even a Sonictuber. But thanks for getting where I'm coming from.(=
mechashadow But the fanbase not only has an affect on the franchises reputation but also on the games evident from the fact that Sonic Team tries to please everyone but the quality of the games worsen as an result.
Sonic Badass ...that's exactly what I said in my original comment, yes. They do that too much and the solution I propose up there as well is figuring out solid fundamentals on their own and following through for a whole game like they used to do (in the first 3 3D games) without fretting too much about the fanbase.
I think the issue that we’re ultimately left facing is that of uncertainty. I’d love to stop worrying about the BS fan politics surrounding Sonic, and just trust SEGA to do right by the people who line their wallets… but I don’t. I don’t have confidence that they’ll prioritize making a good game and letting the fans follow accordingly, and I’m not confident that they could pull it off if they tried. And I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong, I will gladly put my foot in my mouth if it means stability fir this franchise. But I think SEGA has some proving to do before that happens.
In my opinion Sega should Stop Combining The Styles oh god The modern designs were made for city's Modern Modern (2008 to 2020 ) Was made for a new style I can't describe (Adventure is my favourite style but I know SA3 is O6 ............) Classic was made for the classics
You hit the nail on the head.
For a while after Generations came out, I adored the idea of their being two Sonics. But as time went on, I hated how the fanbase devolved and split into two.
Even though I'm a huge Modern fan, at the end of the day, I just want good games, and the reason Forces failed isn't simply because Classic was shoehorned into it.
I can't agree more. I like Sonic but I left the Fanbase because of Richard Kuta's bitch fest over Modern Sonic in Sonic 4, that awful boycott and the whole Classic Sonic vs. Modern Sonic while Sonic 4 Episode 1 and Sonic 4 Episode 2 felt mediocre fans where ignoring the real issue on Sonic 4 the gameplay. It was bad enough that there are Crappy Recolors, Rule 34 and Chris-Chan in the fanbase the Sonic fanbase got well known over Ryan Drummond vs. Jason Griffith with jackasses like Spax3. I can see both Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic work hand in hand one year We get a Classic Sonic game + Spinoff and another year We get a Modern Sonic game + Spinoff. I seen Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic work hand in hand with merchandise with T-Shirts, Figures (from Jazwares and Tomy) and Plush Dolls (from GE Entertainment). If Sonic Team can ignore the Classic Sonic fanboys and cater to the Modern Sonic fans like how the Mania Team ignore the Modern Sonic fanboys and cater to the Classic Sonic fans while Sumo Digital make spinoff titles and Hardlight work on Mobile titles then Sonic's identity crisis is over. I see Classic Sonic as kid Sonic while Modern Sonic is teen Sonic so in other words Sonic is Sonic weather if He has green eye color, or black eye color, long quills or short quills, taller and thin or short and pudgy Sonic will always be Sonic as long as He can collect rings, stop Dr. Eggman/Dr. Robotnik and Metal Sonic, eat Chili Dogs, Hangs out with Tails, Knuckles and Amy, can go Super with the Chaos Emeralds and cool the character is. EX Mega Man and Mega Man X are different Mega Man was originally a helper robot named Rock but Rock became Mega Man because of Rock wanted to stop Dr. Wily and Dr. Light knew that Mega Man might become obsolete He made the successor to the Blue Bomber 1.0 thus Blue Bomber 2.0 Mega Man X is made and that makes seance why Mega Man and X are different kinda like how Mario and Paper Mario are different (since Mario and Luigi: Paper Jame) but I never understand why Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic are different and this argument need to stop. Sonic is My favorite series right next to Mario, Zelda, Star Fox, Donkey Kong, Mega Man and Overwatch
It's an interesting video, but I see things very differently.
I mean the fan base being split is annoying, and is shown to have taken some affect within the games, Sega dug themselves a hole here...
However if SEGA was smart, they'd use this to their advantage, understand the appeal of these different eras and groups of Sonic games (Megadrive, Adventure, Boost) and set up pillars for all of them to strive and be built upon away from one another.
Quick personal example would be: Mainline 2D Sonic games that build upon the Megadrive titles and use Naoto Oshima's artstyle, without the nostalgia pandering and the pixel graphics (e.g. Check Sonic Freedom the fangame).
Mainline 3D games that build upon the Adventure titles as their main foundation, artstyle would be more detailed and saturated, game would be 5-7 hours long to beat because of it's structure and the other characters campaigns, and would be very story focused.
Spinoff Boost titles that understand the strengths of the Boost, and doesn't hamper it down by trying to do something the Adventure games did better.
Just allow the Boost titles to focus on their strengths, and worry less about things you'd expect from a mainline title, on top of not having to be too long because it's a spin off (short and sweet, no need for classic sonic, wisps, werehog or other awkward additions that requires completely different programming and controls. This is where the Adventure games'/Megadrive's strengths lay).
The thing with SEGA though is these things I've just mentioned has probably already been an idea by some of the folks that work their, but I think management doesn't want to put in the effort to understand how to do this, they don't want to spend time talking to the developers that made these successful games people want sequels for.
Just sell Sonic games on Metacritc scores from elitists that don't like their games...and memes...and all the other self-deprecating crap this franchise now stagnates within...I just wish they still had some level of integrity and self-respect.
Admittedly my approach isn't perfect either, that would essentially mean having 3 games in development at a time (excluding other spin offs), and could lead to over-saturation or stagnation of some form (although I mean it's already stagnating to be fair).
Either way, I agree we should stop treating them as different entities, because it's really just a different artstyle if we're only talking about the games...although I would argue the 2010s approach basically turned Sonic's classic form into 1930s Mickey Mouse, and his Modern look into a Disney Channel Sitcom character that thinks he's funny by opening his mouth and smiling 100%.
But hey, IGN and the rest of those reviewers liked it, so I guess that must mean it was a good choice in the long run (seething sarcasm).
I think I'm personally not even annoyed by the split if I'm honest, I'm annoyed by the lack of respect and integrity, and how they'll throw old developers' hard work and fans under the bus in favour of getting on the good side with Mainstream reviewers/High Profile RUclipsrs/The Sonic Hatedom "Sonic games were never that good" crowd.
Like I should've been happy that Mania was being received well...but I wasn't.
It just felt like everyone want Sonic to be some superficial relic of the early 90s, and wasn't allowed to be anything more, and all the games that came out after 3&K were terrible because Mr.Reviewman who knows more than me because I'm a stupid Sonic Fan says so...and the Sonic Twitter seems to agree with them.
So yeah...I don't care if the next game "isn't Sonic 06", don't care if the metacritic scores are through the roof, because SEGA has no genuine integrity or respect.
And you can't blame this on the fans, it's SEGA's fault for being mismanaged, blaming the fanbase for liking different aspects and different things isn't an excuse for their shoddy business decisions.
End of the essay.
Honestly, I know you’ve alienated a lot of people with this video, but you’re completely right. Sonic Team needs to either pick one or combine the best elements of both. I think this consolidation method, while it may be controversial at first, is the first step they absolutely need to take for Sonic to make his eventual return to glory.
While the gameplay of the Mario games between 2D and 3D is quite different, it doesn’t matter because 1.) they’re all quality games, and 2.) you’re still doing core “Mario things” in both types of games. You’re still running around, jumping, stomping on enemies, and finding collectibles.
Sonic Team needs to define that core “Sonic thing” so that they can make quality games in either 2D or 3D that make people think “oh yeah this is a Sonic game.” I think that core gameplay for Sonic is using Sonic’s weight and rolling to gain speed, platforming, spinning into enemies, and Special Stages. At least the Sonic portions of SA1 and SA2 proved that that kind of physics based speed platforming (while lacking in the exploration department) CAN work in 3D. That kind of gameplay would also probably be much easier for the developers to develop for as they wouldn’t have to make levels that span friggin 5 million miles. If they could just make fully 3D Sonic games with that kind of gameplay and the same level of polish they have been putting into recent projects, I think people would be pretty happy.
Of course, not everyone will be happy, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t do it. If they just keep making quality games in that style, then eventually people will just come to terms with the fact that that is just what Sonic is. They may still prefer “their” Sonic, but they’ll still purchase pretty much everything that comes out anyways.
In theory--and an ideal situation--you might be right. In the actual situation we HAVE, it's too complicated to know what such consolidation would even ENTAIL. I have ideas, but first a tangent to explain why it's more complicated than you let on.
You said that Sonic Mania didn't succeed just because it was Classic Sonic, but because it was a GOOD GAME. It's more complicated than that. It succeeded because it's a GOOD CLASSIC SONIC game, which provided developers can get over the hump to make some good physics, is a reasonably straightforward thing to make. While I agree that what Sonic looks like is ultimately pretty trivial compared to how he plays, the games that used and promoted the classic design, as so referred starting with Sonic Generations, still contain enough common elements and lack others that they set a solid template for what Classic Sonic is. It's 2D, its controls use one button plus a direction, it utilizes momentum-based navigation as part of its challenge, and its characters play very similar to one another. It lacks additions made in Sonic games since then.
The problem with consolidating that with Modern Sonic is that Modern Sonic isn't like that. The games since the Modern design (more-or-less) became the standard Sonic design have been infamous for making all sorts of additions to see what sticks. Fishing, treasure hunting, shooting, fighting, power-ups, the boost; some of it lasts, some it doesn't, some of it is on-again, off-again, but the point is that modern Sonic games are so erratic that they don't there isn't anything solid TO consolidate with, and the moment you pick something as the definitive modern trait that you think factors well into what Sonic should be as a whole, at least SOME people will be mad. Not because they dislike Classic Sonic but because they may dislike what you chose.
For example, to merge what GENERATIONS called Classic and Modern Sonic would be a disaster for at least one of those; probably Classic. Boost simply is a game-breaker unless you design the game to work with and (possibly) challenge the boost. It doesn't just ruin what had been a lot of the challenge of Classic Sonic, but also of those games released between the time the Modern Sonic design was introduced and the boost was.
The closest we can come to a consolidation, for gameplay purposes, would be less "Classic Sonic meets Modern Sonic", than "Classic Sonic except in 3D". I really don't care what design they would use, although I do find it charming to see Classic Sonic in 3D and both together, but the point is use physics of the sort the four Genesis Sonic platformers and Sonic Mania have, no built-in boost and at least a DEARTH of environmental objects that boost the characters, and have multiple characters but have all of them work with the momentum gameplay that entails...but again, in 3D, with levels that take advantageo of the 3D to make more exploration possibilities.
I disagree with the idea of getting rid of both Sonic’s, as you proved that people will purchase Sonic games, if they’re praised & well made. SonicTeam should cater to the specific demographics of fans, dependant on the type of game they’re making, so Classic Fans with a Mania Sequel.
Yes the 2 Sonic’s existing is annoying, but it genuinely boils down to subjective opinions, which aren’t valid pieces of info. to go off of.
As long as Modern finds his way again, I genuinely believe that Sonic will come back.
I do believe that the fact that Mania is a good game is what brought most of its sales, however, its marketing definitely helped as well. The general audience sees about one thing about Sonic: If Modern Sonic was in it, most of Modern Sonic's drawbacks would follow.
Sonic 4 had a near exact same approach as Sonic Mania, though due to its poor quality, it really did put a bad image on just Modern Sonic in general. The reveal for Sonic Mania communicated 3 main points:
1. That Sonic has changed over the years.
2. In order to find out what makes Sonic so good, this game goes back to its roots to find what was so good about it. By simplifying Sonic, and remaking Classics.
3. This is made by people that know how to make Sonic work.
Everyone is drawn to the fact that its made by fans, and while that is true, this only holds water as a good sign for Mania because we already have proof that the team can make competent titles.
With that said, I would say it would have been a really hurt Mania to aesthetically make it Modern Sonic, because Modern Sonic has a presence as an Icon now that breaks trust between consumers.
In terms of mentioning if Sonic should have a new style, I would argue to model Sonic nearly exactly how he looks in Sonic Adventure or the style of that Nenderoid Sonic toy from a couple of years back, especially for 3D titles. The visual style communicates the hybrid of Classic and Modern that I believe does really well.
Excellent video, btw! I loved it!
While I did buy Sonic Mania and Forces, I havent been hype for a Sonic game ever since. ever since I brought them I have been carefully judging Sonic games before buying them. So I dont think sale numbers equal reception.
I feel like sonic adventure (sonics in game model) had one one of the best sonic designs visually, it was really just classic sonic but taller, green eyes and more stubby/longer quills. I think the ideal sonic game would be a momentum based platformer with some type of boost/Mach speed sections sprinkled in.
I buy Sonic games because they are fun to play. Sonic Mania is fun to play. Sonic Unleashed is also fun to play. Sonic 1 is not fun to play. Sonic '06 is also not fun to play. I don't care what Sonic they use, if the game is fun, then I'll play, and if it's not fun, then I won't play it. It's really just that simple.
I agree with everything except the merging of the two designs, I believe that that would do nothing but bad for the series, classic and modern have already been split into two different designs and there's nothing we can do to change that, the damage has already been done, getting rid of one of the designs to make room for the other would just displease half the fan base, and making way for a new design would displease basically all of the fan base, (look at how people reacted to Boom, and that's a spin-off series!), I do think that we can rectify some of the issues that we have currently though, if we simply return Classic Sonic to being a younger version of Sonic than the design change makes sense, Classic Sonic games can still have what looks like Classic Sonic and modern games can still have what looks like modern Sonic without them needing to come up with some random excuse. So just retcon Sonic Forces' stupid retcon and we Gucci.
Finally someone acknowledges the identity crises. Too many changes have happened in the Series without clearly establishing pillars or expanding on the same gameplay. They aren't Nintendo. They can't keep changing their gameplay like that. Sega simply isn't capable of making games as art. They always treat them like a product without caring..
I think this is what has ended up happening - based on the new takeover, "modern"-styled Sonic is canonically the same Sonic in Superstars.
And it was the best choice.
If Sonic played around with its visual style like Zelda frequently does, this whole "classic vs. modern" debate would be rendered entirely moot. Modern and classic gameplay being tied to their respective visual styles means that people have certain expectations when they see that an upcoming game will have said visual style. Sonic Team tried out new visual styles for each game, they'd sidestep the discussion entirely and divorce expectations from visuals.
I never thought generations had a bad amount of 2D sections. Nor were they large. They were very balanced and made the pacing all the more better and that's what made me lvoe it so much more than unleashed..... Except for planet wisp... Oh my God that level..
I honestly think the modern sonic art direction is all over the place and this is frankly due to Sonic Team experimenting without understanding the basic fundamentals of the characters gameplay and brand. After listening to the dev interview for Sonic Utopia I would honestly say ditch Modern Sonic. Sonic in the original games as well as Mania have a clear design and art direction. Focus on the art style that specifically regarding Sonics iconography and how it relates to the time but in a way it can make it timeless. In other words have a concrete identity. I’m not a Sonic fan I’ve never played the games but Mania and Utopia have me interested. Even if one isn’t an official Sonic title. Regardless I find this stuff interesting.
Well, the thing is that while this might make the franchise better it would alienate a huge part of the fanbase. A modern Sonic that doesn't like classic styled games won't buy every single classic game and vice versa. Denying everything in the past is the only way to truly consolidate the series, since the series has departed into too far ways. Once again, Mario has always done it the best. There are plenty of 3d mario games but 2d marios are still a thing, without having an official consolidation. Modern Sonic might need to get another redesign and have his gameplay rethought, however we must not forget the classic gameplay and the classic designs, as their purpose is for a game inherently different from everything regarding modern Sonic.
Also, I really like dbz and comics, so in a sense the whole two alternate Sonic things make the franchise feel more epic and connected that way.^^
I feel like you are trying cut a peice of paper with a buzz saw. You use mario as an example, you are looking in the wrong place. Zelda is a much better example, each link is a different link. There are a bunch of different links.
Just make a different sonic game, for different people. Yeah some folks will be upset about one sonic game not being for them, but each sonic game will be refocused on quality instead of trying to appeal to multiple fanbases because each game will do that.
Everyone knows Modern Mickey works best. But I'm tired of seeing monochromatic sections plaguing the Modern Mickey style!
You are absolutely right. What I find most interesting though is that there is yet another portion of the Sonic fanbase who does look at all the games together rather than as Modern or Classic Sonic games. What I have found however is that these are the least vocal of all the fans because they find a lot of the discussions unimportant. People like that understand that what makes a good or bad sonic game comes down to how the game is designed and how well it's put together and not something stupid like whether or not Sonic's eyes are green or black. People like that do exist and I wish the whole fanbase was like that because the vast majority of Sonic fans I have meant range from annoying to down right insufferable. And because those kind of fans are so large in number and Sonic Team is foolish enough to listen to them, the series just can't find it's footing. Honestly I think the best thing for the series right now would be to completely ignore the fan base, guys like us included and just make games that the general gaming public would enjoy. That's basically what the Team behind Mania did. They didn't build the game based on what the fans wanted (aside from the addition of classic levels which they didn't want to do but were ordered to do so by Sega) but rather what would make for a good game in general. That's why that game was a success and Sega needs to realize it.
I- would go only classic and expend on sonic in 3d taking cues from adventure and utopia
-Boost formula would work wonders for a Sonic R reboot.
-Modern design and more plot driven take on the franchise doesnt appeal to me at all.
For me, Sonic is Sonic.
I just can't be bothered with all the 'fan' drama, personally. Lol.
I think I got it now, it ain't about the art style but the playstyle attached to them, pretty sure it already been said, the Modern design is associated with linearity and automation while Classic design is open and has momentum focused. The character designs shouldn't be fused, what should be done is bringing over the Classic philosophy to 3D like what Adventure tried to do. Sadly, it's up to the new team to decide so hands in the air, no one knows what we getting at the moment.
I’ve only been in the fan base while this debate was happening, and I never really understood it. I mean, why would you care whether someone liked the old games or the new games more? There are good new Sonic games and bad old ones too. It’s not based on when the game was made but how much effort was put into it and how much time and resources they had. I hope Sonic Team goes with your idea and I hope it ends this stupid debate. But I mostly hope that the quality of there games is closer to Mania from now on, regardless of Modern or Classic.
Don't worry buddy. I don't hate you're discussion and i can guarentee u about a good chunck of people can agree with your points. I know I do. and im a sonic fan, not a die hard, not a cassual. Just a sonic fan. its a shame that this video hasnt got more likes
i guess you'll get your wish since sega doesn't have any plans to make anymore sonic games, plus a new sonic 101 video released by sonic team they call modern sonic simply sonic
Actually, there is a theory that the Mario in Donkey Kong is not the same Mario as in the Super Mario games, but rather Mario's father, who was a carpenter.
Using Paper Mario as an example doesn't work, because he is a different Mario.
So long story short, its' another one of Sega's easily avoidable mistakes that caused this to happen?
I think they can be a classic and modern sorta no just more like what you said a spinoff for every game classic doesn't need to be mention once in mainline and modern not once in spinoff just sonic not modern or classic
God damn. If you were more popular we might actually get more great sonic games
One day later, and still not even close to 2,000 views......
We need to change that.
If you're in the sonic fan base you're going to get flak for any opinion on sonic
Just found this and I kind of have a solution to the issue of people's different preference in aesthetics. Skin/model swaps. I think giving players the ability to choose which aesthetic fits their preference would make a lot of the discussion moot. Yes, a distinction has been made by the devs between the gameplay of Classic and Modern Sonic but as you pointed out with Mania, does it even matter? If we assume that a good game is made regardless of whether it's Classic or Modern, then wouldn't giving players an option to choose their preferred design help consolidate things? It's not like it even matters what gameplay you're doing it for. Sonic mania has mods that let you play as Modern Sonic and Sonic Generations had mods that puts classic Sonic in modern stages. There are even SADX mods that let you use the Sonic Jam model. It would mean a little extra work implementing something like that (maybe for games going forward, maybe for just the single, quality game) but It would also mean that the game could be considered Modern or Classic depending on your preference. It's a way to please everyone that doesn't compromise the focus or quality of the game itself. It's just a character costume. If I wanted to make it deeper I'd just have some more customization options. "Like how Sonic Looks in Riders? There's a skin for that. Adventure 2? enjoy your soap shoes (I know it was a license deal, it's just an example)".
that would work, but people need to understand its just one entity