The fact that Go Seigen almost beat Honinbo Shusai is just a colossal brainfuck considering that Shusai discussed almost every move with his student and fellow Honnibo people makes it just more awesome. Also that he dared to play the 4:th move on the Tengen is also a pretty baller move.
Sweet, epic game. I'm less than a beginner but just love the commentary and interaction with the class and your understanding for the specific game analysis + lore around the game (and guesses at their mindset). Cheers Nick.
Thanks for posting this Nick I reviewed this game before, but its always good to see another perspective. This is one of my favorite of all time along with Dosaku's Masterpiece
GO Seigen is one of my 3 favorite players after Shisaku and Lee Sedol. Sedol was my favorite due to him being the most like Go Seigen, but building on the existing knowledge to go even further. Nick has even more problems reviewing Lee Sedol's championship games than Seigens' because Sedol is reading so deep, and his plans are so complicated that it's head spinning to figure half of them out. Segen has the distinction of being the very last of the old masters to die. He was the last of the Gi-wearing , traditional clothes old style dressed masters to be playing important games dressed like the 1800's.
Thank you very much! I was looking forward to this. Also gocommentary did a review of this game a while ago. I believe its in greatest games ever played.
Thanks for the vid. Big fan of the game mainly thnx to your channel (it goes a long way in making the learning of Go fun and entertaining). Also wanted to ask: I've been playing a lot against Go programs, and was wondering two things: (1) whether the levels on those computer players is accurate (does it amount to beating a real 8kyu if you beat an 8kyu program?); and (2) whether you'd be willing to make a sandbagger video playing against a 1-3 dan computer program and comment on how natural or believable are the computer's moves. I think it would be very interesting to see you play and comment on a computer's moves.
Fujisawa was notorious for bad time management. He got in time trouble against many other players too, e.g. his jubango against Hashimoto. He could waste hours in fuseki and early midgame. Ironically, he was one of the best lightning go players of his day.
So Go Seigen wasn't just fast, he played unconventionally and still with a higher level of ability than anyone else. He was fast, natural, could play WELL unconventionally, and this game demonstrated all of that.
After Go Seigen became 5p (1932) he started to experiment a lot with san-san and hoshi. There are all sorts of combinations with these he played in the next few years. Crossed, nirensei,double san-san, one of each,...
Nick, as an interesting point of history, Honinbo Shuei played two hoshi stones as white in a game against Yasui Sanei on December 13, 1898. I do not know if he was the first person to play them, (most likely the first with white) but it is certainly the earliest that I am aware of. Go Seigen was definitely an innovator, but Shuei deserves a lot of the credit...he was playing the hoshi as white rather consistently in the latter half of the 19th century. Personally, as a matter of style, I strongly dislike the hoshi anyway and never play them, but I can still appreciate the historical significance. Great game to review, Cheers! :-)
hey mr sibicky thanks for the lectures :) but with those magnets around that tablet be very careful because if one falls onto it your tablet will turn into a paperweight always love the vids thanks again
+saxophoneguy Modern Electronic devices are basically immune to magnets, they are all protected from weak magnets, thode magnets on the board are really weak magnets by the way, he would need a 50*weight magnet to even affect his tablet.
i hate when i win due to time :-/ it felt that white played so much better and (maybe) looses only due to some clock ticking nevertheless since they play for money and both agreed to this pro life it is still fair
Except that according to pretty much any professional player who has analyzed this game, white didn't play much better than black at all this game, and actually not even a tiny bit better. And this game has been analyzed by quite a few. Yeah, winning by time is less interesting than other wins, but it has nothing to do with playing for money. Every tournament, even amateur tournaments, and not only in Go (Go, Chess, etc.) has time settings, and if it runs out - you lose. It's an important part of any game, when you can't play forever. Still, this is not a valid claim to say you lose on time when there is time per move and the game just finishes normally... And your opponent had the same constraints. However, the claim was most likely made because of nationalist reasons - Go Seigen was suffering from that during many of his years there... So even the claim made in the papers there is suspect. But actually, none of that matters... Since white didn't play any better than black in this game, so no real valid reason to claim that anyway.
Do you know if Dwyrin reviewed this game? That's where Zombie black stones and Ghost white probably originated with him. This game , other than some of the old joseki, reminds me a lot of Ke Jie vs. AlphaGO games 1 and 2. This game had so many unsettled positions that alternated life and death status that it could have been a Ke Jie game . True Masters often think alike. I rate Ke Jie as a similar player to Go Seigen and Think he would have been Seigen's other rival (other than Kitani) if he'd lived 100 yrs ago. The ratings sites still give high honor to Go Seigen. The estimate his Elo raw score at 3300-3400 pts. That would put him top 90 to top 50 in the world right now, with no modern knowledge. HOWEVER that rating comes from the mid 60's -- when Go Seigen was effectively retired, after the motorcycle accident took 2 stones off his strength, and when he was way past his prime. I really do think that if Go Seigen played as white against Ke Jie (ke jie in time machine)... with modern kome at 7.5pts, Go Seigen would actually beat him 5/10 times at least. All the old players testified that Go Seigen wasn't even close to the same player after he had his head injury. He couldn't concentrate and was almost unable to complete long games at all. It forced him into virtual retirement within 5 years of the incident. Evidence of this point can be seen in 2 games against Sakata Eio and Fujisawa Shuko from the early 70's. Those two games , each player said that they felt Go Seigen was playing like the old Go Seigen. He blew them both out by 30+ and early resignation in those games. Both players were rated around the upper 3300's to 3400 at the time they got crushed by him. Go Seigen was playing other 9P's in the 50's with 1-2 stone handicaps and still winning 6-2-2 in Jubangos. He was over 70 years ahead of his time
its interesting you pick this game here's the same game it has a really good depth of the game by the commentator ruclips.net/video/3O-lwNzN0G0/видео.html its kind of hard to understand but you can put up the english sub
Nick i like your lectures but sometimes you get stuck with an idea. Star point is NOT not getting anything. It has influence to center. Maybe you say it for teaching-wise BUT it is also bad for teaching. Star has influence, 3-4 is for enclosure. That's it.
I don't think he is stating that hoshi does not get anything. In fact, he has lessons on fuseki studying the importance of hoshi openings. He just explains (histrionically) that, in th historical context of this game (1950's), hoshi openings were considered inefficient for not getting territory at all, and komoku was way more popular. Nick is acting like he was Fujisawa thinking (with a little bit of humor) that getting territory is more important than getting influence in fuseki, but that is not what Nick teaches to his students (from what I've seen in other videos).
and you can't even give constructive criticism... i'm a weak sdk so maybe in your eyes i'm not qualified to evaluate his commentary (certainly you must be at least lower dan) but to me it made the moves quite understandable and i found it entertaining, maybe if you'd elaborate on why his commentary was insufficient i could agree but right now your comment just seems reeeally stupid
Just watched the lecture again. It's awesome how the more you learn about go, the more you can appreciate it.
beauty of go is that you don't have to be an expert to enjoy expert games.
The fact that Go Seigen almost beat Honinbo Shusai is just a colossal brainfuck considering that Shusai discussed almost every move with his student and fellow Honnibo people makes it just more awesome. Also that he dared to play the 4:th move on the Tengen is also a pretty baller move.
Sweet, epic game. I'm less than a beginner but just love the commentary and interaction with the class and your understanding for the specific game analysis + lore around the game (and guesses at their mindset). Cheers Nick.
What a beautiful tribute. Thanks for sharing this game!
"If you reach zero, do I lose the game?" "Yes." "Really?" "Oh, nah, I was just kidding!" ;)
Kon Berner Curious seeing you here lol
Thanks for posting this Nick I reviewed this game before, but its always good to see another perspective. This is one of my favorite of all time along with Dosaku's Masterpiece
Thanks for the vid, it is a very nice hommage to Go Seigen.
GO Seigen is one of my 3 favorite players after Shisaku and Lee Sedol. Sedol was my favorite due to him being the most like Go Seigen, but building on the existing knowledge to go even further. Nick has even more problems reviewing Lee Sedol's championship games than Seigens' because Sedol is reading so deep, and his plans are so complicated that it's head spinning to figure half of them out.
Segen has the distinction of being the very last of the old masters to die. He was the last of the Gi-wearing , traditional clothes old style dressed masters to be playing important games dressed like the 1800's.
June 12 1914 - November 30 2014 Rip Go Seigen True Master of Go
Thank you very much! I was looking forward to this.
Also gocommentary did a review of this game a while ago. I believe its in greatest games ever played.
Here's the gocommentary review: ruclips.net/video/3O-lwNzN0G0/видео.html
A legendary game to remember Go Seigen. Please do more pro game reviews like this!
R.I.P. Go Seigen
Khorne Kharnath ...but he got 100 years old (1914-2014)
...very good age, veeeeery good
better than me definitely
Thanks for the vid. Big fan of the game mainly thnx to your channel (it goes a long way in making the learning of Go fun and entertaining).
Also wanted to ask: I've been playing a lot against Go programs, and was wondering two things: (1) whether the levels on those computer players is accurate (does it amount to beating a real 8kyu if you beat an 8kyu program?); and (2) whether you'd be willing to make a sandbagger video playing against a 1-3 dan computer program and comment on how natural or believable are the computer's moves.
I think it would be very interesting to see you play and comment on a computer's moves.
Fujisawa was notorious for bad time management. He got in time trouble against many other players too, e.g. his jubango against Hashimoto. He could waste hours in fuseki and early midgame. Ironically, he was one of the best lightning go players of his day.
i really like the way you explain things, and the match was amazing!
This was great! Just found your channel. Please review more Go Seigen games.
YES! YES! I LOVE YOU NICK!
Yay for Go Seigen!
So Go Seigen wasn't just fast, he played unconventionally and still with a higher level of ability than anyone else. He was fast, natural, could play WELL unconventionally, and this game demonstrated all of that.
This is a bit more complicated than four in a row huh... ._.
You could try five in a row before go. After that you will find out that five in a row is perfectly opposite of go
This game is great. Thanks for the review Nick.
Hey Nick, yesterday I discovered your x-wing videos! Are you still playing? You should make more! (I just started playing)
After Go Seigen became 5p (1932) he started to experiment a lot with san-san and hoshi. There are all sorts of combinations with these he played in the next few years. Crossed, nirensei,double san-san, one of each,...
Nick, as an interesting point of history, Honinbo Shuei played two hoshi stones as white in a game against Yasui Sanei on December 13, 1898. I do not know if he was the first person to play them, (most likely the first with white) but it is certainly the earliest that I am aware of. Go Seigen was definitely an innovator, but Shuei deserves a lot of the credit...he was playing the hoshi as white rather consistently in the latter half of the 19th century. Personally, as a matter of style, I strongly dislike the hoshi anyway and never play them, but I can still appreciate the historical significance.
Great game to review,
Cheers! :-)
You should teach more middle game shapes and joseki! Best way to increase reading skill is exposure to patterns.
oh poopies
Most important lesson here: Don't ride a motorcycle... :(
hey mr sibicky thanks for the lectures :) but with those magnets around that tablet be very careful because if one falls onto it your tablet will turn into a paperweight always love the vids thanks again
+saxophoneguy Modern Electronic devices are basically immune to magnets, they are all protected from weak magnets, thode magnets on the board are really weak magnets by the way, he would need a 50*weight magnet to even affect his tablet.
i hate when i win due to time :-/
it felt that white played so much better and (maybe) looses only due to some clock ticking
nevertheless since they play for money and both agreed to this pro life it is still fair
Except that according to pretty much any professional player who has analyzed this game, white didn't play much better than black at all this game, and actually not even a tiny bit better. And this game has been analyzed by quite a few.
Yeah, winning by time is less interesting than other wins, but it has nothing to do with playing for money. Every tournament, even amateur tournaments, and not only in Go (Go, Chess, etc.) has time settings, and if it runs out - you lose. It's an important part of any game, when you can't play forever.
Still, this is not a valid claim to say you lose on time when there is time per move and the game just finishes normally... And your opponent had the same constraints.
However, the claim was most likely made because of nationalist reasons - Go Seigen was suffering from that during many of his years there... So even the claim made in the papers there is suspect.
But actually, none of that matters... Since white didn't play any better than black in this game, so no real valid reason to claim that anyway.
Zombies style:)
Do you know if Dwyrin reviewed this game? That's where Zombie black stones and Ghost white probably originated with him.
This game , other than some of the old joseki, reminds me a lot of Ke Jie vs. AlphaGO games 1 and 2. This game had so many unsettled positions that alternated life and death status that it could have been a Ke Jie game . True Masters often think alike.
I rate Ke Jie as a similar player to Go Seigen and Think he would have been Seigen's other rival (other than Kitani) if he'd lived 100 yrs ago.
The ratings sites still give high honor to Go Seigen. The estimate his Elo raw score at 3300-3400 pts. That would put him top 90 to top 50 in the world right now, with no modern knowledge. HOWEVER that rating comes from the mid 60's -- when Go Seigen was effectively retired, after the motorcycle accident took 2 stones off his strength, and when he was way past his prime.
I really do think that if Go Seigen played as white against Ke Jie (ke jie in time machine)... with modern kome at 7.5pts, Go Seigen would actually beat him 5/10 times at least.
All the old players testified that Go Seigen wasn't even close to the same player after he had his head injury. He couldn't concentrate and was almost unable to complete long games at all. It forced him into virtual retirement within 5 years of the incident.
Evidence of this point can be seen in 2 games against Sakata Eio and Fujisawa Shuko from the early 70's. Those two games , each player said that they felt Go Seigen was playing like the old Go Seigen. He blew them both out by 30+ and early resignation in those games. Both players were rated around the upper 3300's to 3400 at the time they got crushed by him.
Go Seigen was playing other 9P's in the 50's with 1-2 stone handicaps and still winning 6-2-2 in Jubangos. He was over 70 years ahead of his time
its interesting you pick this game here's the same game it has a really good depth of the game by the commentator ruclips.net/video/3O-lwNzN0G0/видео.html its kind of hard to understand but you can put up the english sub
Nick i like your lectures but sometimes you get stuck with an idea. Star point is NOT not getting anything. It has influence to center. Maybe you say it for teaching-wise BUT it is also bad for teaching.
Star has influence, 3-4 is for enclosure. That's it.
I don't think he is stating that hoshi does not get anything. In fact, he has lessons on fuseki studying the importance of hoshi openings. He just explains (histrionically) that, in th historical context of this game (1950's), hoshi openings were considered inefficient for not getting territory at all, and komoku was way more popular. Nick is acting like he was Fujisawa thinking (with a little bit of humor) that getting territory is more important than getting influence in fuseki, but that is not what Nick teaches to his students (from what I've seen in other videos).
@ 5:55 in the vid
you are not qualified to comment on pro-games.
You are not qualified to comment on pro-games-analysis-videos.
and you can't even give constructive criticism... i'm a weak sdk so maybe in your eyes i'm not qualified to evaluate his commentary (certainly you must be at least lower dan) but to me it made the moves quite understandable and i found it entertaining, maybe if you'd elaborate on why his commentary was insufficient i could agree but right now your comment just seems reeeally stupid
R.I.P Go Seigen