I think he does have a point, I didn't even think about where it came from, because of how quickly everything was wrapped up, I do think including this scene would have cleared things up a little bit, but it stills feels like a "cheap" ending, just like Journey's End and the Star Beast, except I think Empire of Death was the worst offender.
I partly agree with him, no one did wonder where the whistle came from. However, people did wonder how the Doctor was able to magically blow the whistle and the Tardis comes to his aid, which is why this scene is so important.
For me, the rushed pacing of s1 was its biggest issue, so I agree it's long overdue that the show extended episode runtime. An extra 10-20 minutes would do so much to help the pacing of certain stories.
Hard disagree on the scene with Ruby and the Doctor on the stairs being cut in devils chord. I would honestly say that scene needed to be in just as much as the whistle scene. Without that scene, the musical number felt very random and out of place. With that 5-second explanation on the stairs, it gives a reason for the musical number and feels far more like doctor who. This is coming from someone who liked the musical number.
I actually think the scene where the Doctor reveals that music is gunna be flooding back into the world to be crucial to the ending because without it, the Musical number at the end feels out of no wear IMO.
Absolutely agree. And it's so short as well. I think Russell's biggest problem as a writer now is he's not engaged enough with narrative logic. He seems to have decided things don't need to be explained. It seems to be his thing now.
2:35 is sad RTD: [makes an enormous TARDIS, and the only thing being there is a jukebox] Yeah, this season is very musical! The jukebox: [ends up being used only once, as an opening shot]
In the case of the "explostion of music", I disagree that this should've been a "show, don't tell" situation. Because showing it questions of what just happened. It's a situation that needs an explanation. I also disagree with your view of the Memory TARDIS fading away. I like it not only being canon, but also a reason to revisit old episodes. I suppose it could work in the sense of being able to return whenever people want to remember it though.
Huh, I was also thinking that maybe Ncuti's first season could have a release with extended versions of the episodes. Red Dwarf did something similar with one of its seasons years ago. However, the cynic in mean thinks it wouldn't improve the episodes much. The reason I'm so cynical is because the resolution to Ruby's storyline left me with a negative view of the season's episodes overall. I also have no hope that Ncuti's next season will be better.
If they had left that scene in, the plot would have been even more nonsensical since the whole point of the Memory TARDIS was to remain separate from the main TARDIS so that the three survivors could escape Sutekh's control. If there had been a connection between the two TARDISes, it would have made no sense for him not to sneak (in the form of sand) into the hatch and take them all out before they escaped. Despite the deleted scene, that episode remains without any sort of sense; indeed, it would have made it worse if included.
@UomodAltriTempi yeah, as an explanation it raises as many questions as it answers, but the fact RTD reckoned no one would notice it says everything about his era(s)
@@peterthompson1989 he has lots of things in his pockets. Why not make it a yo-yo? I know there's a good chunk of anybaudience that don't need explanations and let the events wash over them, but by RTD must realise that isn't 100% of any audience, least if all Who's
I always presumed Empire of Death+TotT Episode 7 was the origin of the Memory TARDIS and TotT Episodes 1-6 actually took place later. And given the fan wikis are also written with this presumption, it sort of becomes confusing about where and how TotT 1-6 took place if the Memory TARDIS did actually die in the deleted scene. I think simply having it dematerialise would still have been fine, but the Doctor's line should remain cut.
So I get they why need to edit down for tv Time-slots but why don’t they release an extended version on I-Player? Especially with the shorter episode count. Give the BBC users something extra to counter act the ‘Disney takeover’ drama.
For me, the flaws in Empire of Death are more significant than the restoration of a deleted scene. The whole idea of attaching the big bad to a one-shot villain from the Seventies was a jarring contrast with the rest of the series. Sutekh's role as an Osiran, or God of Death, was too jumbled. Was that a grand delusion, or was there no consequences to killing Death?!?
Kate seems a bit too cold in that Donna scene. Donna simply stomps her foot a bit and Kate acquiesces to save freaking lives?! If it was that easy, just do it. I'm kind of glad that was cut. This wasn't the first time the Doctor has summoned the TARDIS with the whistle. It didn't really need an explanation. Frankly, in 2024 and forward, there's no excuse for 45-minute episodes of DW.
It is often the quieter character moments that are sacrificed to keep the more plot central ones as the focus.... However, competing in the increasingly important streaming arena, against the fixed time-slots of broadcast TV, it feels like both should exist. In a similiar fashion to _Have I got news for you?_ & _Have I got more news for you?,_ or _QI_ and _QI XL._ Maybe released a day or week later, revitalising interest in a story. However, we shouldn't forget 'Sacrifice your darlings', if a scene doesn't fit, it should be cut, however good the performance. Just caught the 'Boom' Watch along, it was incredible, for me the stand out episode of Ncuti's first season.
I can’t be the only one, who wished the episode running times had been longer and less rushed. Did I enjoy the series - yes on the whole (some more than others) but would I go back and watch them again (as I have with past doctors) not sure if honest! Millie did a great job acting etc, but didn’t really feel her link with the doctor. Probably because they were together that often and looking forward to seeing how the next companion gels.
My thoughts on "Empire of Death": When the TARDIS reacted to the Doctor's whistle, it had the same vibe as when the Doctor would snap their fingers to open the doors. Why shouldn't it be drawn closer by the sound of the Doctor's whistle? I agree that the scene from "The Giggle" where Donna Noble demanded protection for her family should have stayed in. I love how protective she is (and how strong willed).
The scenes irrelevant. Regardless if it clarifies how the whistle did the things it did, it still doesnt explain that the doctor would know what it did because he didnt tell his past self he collaborated the tardis to respond to the whistle as well as the fact it is still a stupid plot device anyway. If anything the whole section should have been removed and replaced with something better.
While I agree that it's not the best explanation they could've come up with, I think it's pretty reasonable that the doctor would know what to do with it. The doctor would know that his future self must've defeated Sutekh and needed the whistle to do it. He also must've known that he could set the tardis to respond to the noise from the whistle. It's not the first time the doctor has done things that his future self helped him with and then became that future self sending him the clues he needed.
I think the overall scene with the whistle is too long, and I don’t know exactly where it goes, is Sutekh still being dragged behind them while they’re having this conversation? So it would hinder the pacing of that moment if so, and we certainly don’t need the jukebox stuff. As someone who isn’t too bothered by the hand waving, I wasn’t screaming for an explicit explanation for the whistle. It is nice that it exists. I think it’s a bit bloated for what it is trying to achieve.
I think we cater too much, try too hard, to accommodate lower attention spans, which is just reinforcing bad attention habits in people. We're getting to a point where things of any duration at all are getting ignored regardless to importance. Instead of responding to the public and amplifying their worst impulses, programs should be allowed to breathe more and develop slower, and maybe by being suspenseful and good, we can shift the needle back toward sustained attention, fostering more critical thinking possibly. Just a thought.
Yeah, when TVs and movie re rushed, they always feel hollow. The Lord of the Rings is a great example of how NOT cutting a story short makes it better. We need breathing room and character development to balance the action, otherwise the action feels like it matters less.
No amount of deleted scenes could save season 1 from being a disappointment. There's no character development, no friction between the doctor and ruby, no consequences, no satisfactory explanations. I do think it was hurt by Ncuti's filming commitments and the shorter episode count but it's more than that. I'm not sure what the increased budget adds to the show beyond style over substance. Remember how creative the show had to be during RTD1, delivering cheaper episodes like Midnight. All that said, hopefully season 2 will show big improvement but i have my doubts.
I'd prefer the episodes to be 90 minutes long. Like classic Who, basically. In that most stories then were that long, whether across four episodes or two episodes.
That is a major expense. Almost doubling the budget. Also, although I love Classic Who it does always have padding to stretch it out (which works better in a serial than a stand alone story). I think it should be 55 to 60 minutes though and most of that extra time should be focused on the character relationships and making the story richer in detail.
@jamesa.5830 I agree. I've tried to get into classic who but never really could because the stories are so long and mostly filler (I know most people will disagree with me, but pyramids of Mars could've easily been 20 minutes and way less boring.) doctor who perfected it's runtime during Moffat's era with 13 50-60 minute episodes per season.
@@SnowLily06 I would recommend watching the classic series the way it was meant to be viewed ( one a night at most or even one a week). It will change the way you think about it. It’s not really bingeable to modern audiences. It helps to have grown up with that pacing but watching it as a serial rather than as a continuous episode which is not what it was meant to be does help viewers who didn’t experience that pacing. I completely agree about the Moffat experiment with the hour long length. I’d also be okay with 2 parters of 45 minutes for finales and big stories even if that meant fewer stories as long as they are quality. I just don’t think 45 minutes is enough when you have to set up a time and place, new characters, a mystery/new alien, main character development, fit into a season story arc, and have a satisfying resolution. There is just more that a Doctor script has to do than the average show.
I disagree with you Mr Tharries when it comes to the whistle scene. I think the scene alone is cool, but if it was included in the episode, it would have ruined the pacing.
"I don't think anyone wondered where the whistle came from". RTD really can't believe this?
I think he does have a point, I didn't even think about where it came from, because of how quickly everything was wrapped up, I do think including this scene would have cleared things up a little bit, but it stills feels like a "cheap" ending, just like Journey's End and the Star Beast, except I think Empire of Death was the worst offender.
@@THEGamingninjaGamingPCyeah where the whistle came from was my least issue with the episode
I partly agree with him, no one did wonder where the whistle came from.
However, people did wonder how the Doctor was able to magically blow the whistle and the Tardis comes to his aid, which is why this scene is so important.
For me, the rushed pacing of s1 was its biggest issue, so I agree it's long overdue that the show extended episode runtime. An extra 10-20 minutes would do so much to help the pacing of certain stories.
Hard disagree on the scene with Ruby and the Doctor on the stairs being cut in devils chord. I would honestly say that scene needed to be in just as much as the whistle scene. Without that scene, the musical number felt very random and out of place. With that 5-second explanation on the stairs, it gives a reason for the musical number and feels far more like doctor who. This is coming from someone who liked the musical number.
I actually think the scene where the Doctor reveals that music is gunna be flooding back into the world to be crucial to the ending because without it, the Musical number at the end feels out of no wear IMO.
Absolutely agree. And it's so short as well. I think Russell's biggest problem as a writer now is he's not engaged enough with narrative logic. He seems to have decided things don't need to be explained. It seems to be his thing now.
@lemonfreshrob Exactly, one small scene could have saved an ending I'm still not thrilled with but I would have at least understood.
It’s baffling the whistle scene was cut the season 1 finale really makes you suspend a lot of disbelief because things are just left unexplained
2:35 is sad
RTD: [makes an enormous TARDIS, and the only thing being there is a jukebox] Yeah, this season is very musical!
The jukebox: [ends up being used only once, as an opening shot]
HAPPY DOCTOR WHO DAY PEOPLE!!!! 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🥦🥦🥦🥦🥦🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴
Happy DWD
In the case of the "explostion of music", I disagree that this should've been a "show, don't tell" situation. Because showing it questions of what just happened. It's a situation that needs an explanation.
I also disagree with your view of the Memory TARDIS fading away. I like it not only being canon, but also a reason to revisit old episodes. I suppose it could work in the sense of being able to return whenever people want to remember it though.
Huh, I was also thinking that maybe Ncuti's first season could have a release with extended versions of the episodes. Red Dwarf did something similar with one of its seasons years ago.
However, the cynic in mean thinks it wouldn't improve the episodes much. The reason I'm so cynical is because the resolution to Ruby's storyline left me with a negative view of the season's episodes overall.
I also have no hope that Ncuti's next season will be better.
If they had left that scene in, the plot would have been even more nonsensical since the whole point of the Memory TARDIS was to remain separate from the main TARDIS so that the three survivors could escape Sutekh's control. If there had been a connection between the two TARDISes, it would have made no sense for him not to sneak (in the form of sand) into the hatch and take them all out before they escaped.
Despite the deleted scene, that episode remains without any sort of sense; indeed, it would have made it worse if included.
☝👍
Yeah I didn't think they were connected and does add more questions being kept in
@UomodAltriTempi yeah, as an explanation it raises as many questions as it answers, but the fact RTD reckoned no one would notice it says everything about his era(s)
@@prestigepea1235 I just presumed he had it already. The 4th doctor had lots of gadgets in his pockets
@@peterthompson1989 he has lots of things in his pockets. Why not make it a yo-yo? I know there's a good chunk of anybaudience that don't need explanations and let the events wash over them, but by RTD must realise that isn't 100% of any audience, least if all Who's
a video on the first drafts would be super interesting x
I always presumed Empire of Death+TotT Episode 7 was the origin of the Memory TARDIS and TotT Episodes 1-6 actually took place later. And given the fan wikis are also written with this presumption, it sort of becomes confusing about where and how TotT 1-6 took place if the Memory TARDIS did actually die in the deleted scene. I think simply having it dematerialise would still have been fine, but the Doctor's line should remain cut.
So I get they why need to edit down for tv Time-slots but why don’t they release an extended version on I-Player? Especially with the shorter episode count.
Give the BBC users something extra to counter act the ‘Disney takeover’ drama.
The whole whistle thing's a bit silly to be honest. A bit like that whole episode come to think of it.
For me, the flaws in Empire of Death are more significant than the restoration of a deleted scene. The whole idea of attaching the big bad to a one-shot villain from the Seventies was a jarring contrast with the rest of the series. Sutekh's role as an Osiran, or God of Death, was too jumbled. Was that a grand delusion, or was there no consequences to killing Death?!?
Kate seems a bit too cold in that Donna scene. Donna simply stomps her foot a bit and Kate acquiesces to save freaking lives?! If it was that easy, just do it. I'm kind of glad that was cut.
This wasn't the first time the Doctor has summoned the TARDIS with the whistle. It didn't really need an explanation.
Frankly, in 2024 and forward, there's no excuse for 45-minute episodes of DW.
Happy Doctor Who Day 🎉🎉🎉
Happy DWD
It is often the quieter character moments that are sacrificed to keep the more plot central ones as the focus.... However, competing in the increasingly important streaming arena, against the fixed time-slots of broadcast TV, it feels like both should exist. In a similiar fashion to _Have I got news for you?_ & _Have I got more news for you?,_ or _QI_ and _QI XL._
Maybe released a day or week later, revitalising interest in a story. However, we shouldn't forget 'Sacrifice your darlings', if a scene doesn't fit, it should be cut, however good the performance.
Just caught the 'Boom' Watch along, it was incredible, for me the stand out episode of Ncuti's first season.
I can’t be the only one, who wished the episode running times had been longer and less rushed. Did I enjoy the series - yes on the whole (some more than others) but would I go back and watch them again (as I have with past doctors) not sure if honest! Millie did a great job acting etc, but didn’t really feel her link with the doctor. Probably because they were together that often and looking forward to seeing how the next companion gels.
I figured the whistle was the memory tardis' version of a sonic tool
My thoughts on "Empire of Death": When the TARDIS reacted to the Doctor's whistle, it had the same vibe as when the Doctor would snap their fingers to open the doors. Why shouldn't it be drawn closer by the sound of the Doctor's whistle?
I agree that the scene from "The Giggle" where Donna Noble demanded protection for her family should have stayed in. I love how protective she is (and how strong willed).
The scenes irrelevant. Regardless if it clarifies how the whistle did the things it did, it still doesnt explain that the doctor would know what it did because he didnt tell his past self he collaborated the tardis to respond to the whistle as well as the fact it is still a stupid plot device anyway. If anything the whole section should have been removed and replaced with something better.
While I agree that it's not the best explanation they could've come up with, I think it's pretty reasonable that the doctor would know what to do with it. The doctor would know that his future self must've defeated Sutekh and needed the whistle to do it. He also must've known that he could set the tardis to respond to the noise from the whistle. It's not the first time the doctor has done things that his future self helped him with and then became that future self sending him the clues he needed.
Where did the whistle originally come from? Where did it go? 😂
Bootstrap Paradox. The doctor does them decently often and seemingly, there are no consequences, so it's not that far-fetched
I think the overall scene with the whistle is too long, and I don’t know exactly where it goes, is Sutekh still being dragged behind them while they’re having this conversation? So it would hinder the pacing of that moment if so, and we certainly don’t need the jukebox stuff. As someone who isn’t too bothered by the hand waving, I wasn’t screaming for an explicit explanation for the whistle.
It is nice that it exists. I think it’s a bit bloated for what it is trying to achieve.
I think we cater too much, try too hard, to accommodate lower attention spans, which is just reinforcing bad attention habits in people. We're getting to a point where things of any duration at all are getting ignored regardless to importance. Instead of responding to the public and amplifying their worst impulses, programs should be allowed to breathe more and develop slower, and maybe by being suspenseful and good, we can shift the needle back toward sustained attention, fostering more critical thinking possibly. Just a thought.
Yeah, when TVs and movie re rushed, they always feel hollow. The Lord of the Rings is a great example of how NOT cutting a story short makes it better. We need breathing room and character development to balance the action, otherwise the action feels like it matters less.
No amount of deleted scenes could save season 1 from being a disappointment. There's no character development, no friction between the doctor and ruby, no consequences, no satisfactory explanations. I do think it was hurt by Ncuti's filming commitments and the shorter episode count but it's more than that. I'm not sure what the increased budget adds to the show beyond style over substance. Remember how creative the show had to be during RTD1, delivering cheaper episodes like Midnight. All that said, hopefully season 2 will show big improvement but i have my doubts.
Sometimes those cheaper episodes would result in something brilliant like Midnight, but you have to remember we also got things like Fear Her.
Give us 60 min.
there's always a skibidi chungus rizz ghatt at the end
Ncuti Gyattwa
I'd prefer the episodes to be 90 minutes long. Like classic Who, basically. In that most stories then were that long, whether across four episodes or two episodes.
That is a major expense. Almost doubling the budget. Also, although I love Classic Who it does always have padding to stretch it out (which works better in a serial than a stand alone story). I think it should be 55 to 60 minutes though and most of that extra time should be focused on the character relationships and making the story richer in detail.
@jamesa.5830 I agree. I've tried to get into classic who but never really could because the stories are so long and mostly filler (I know most people will disagree with me, but pyramids of Mars could've easily been 20 minutes and way less boring.) doctor who perfected it's runtime during Moffat's era with 13 50-60 minute episodes per season.
@@SnowLily06 I would recommend watching the classic series the way it was meant to be viewed ( one a night at most or even one a week). It will change the way you think about it. It’s not really bingeable to modern audiences. It helps to have grown up with that pacing but watching it as a serial rather than as a continuous episode which is not what it was meant to be does help viewers who didn’t experience that pacing. I completely agree about the Moffat experiment with the hour long length. I’d also be okay with 2 parters of 45 minutes for finales and big stories even if that meant fewer stories as long as they are quality. I just don’t think 45 minutes is enough when you have to set up a time and place, new characters, a mystery/new alien, main character development, fit into a season story arc, and have a satisfying resolution. There is just more that a Doctor script has to do than the average show.
RTD has never understood pacing, it's always got on my nerves. One more way in which he thinks he understands what young people want
It's a shame that every episode of Doctor who from 2017 onward wasn't cut lol
I disagree with you Mr Tharries when it comes to the whistle scene.
I think the scene alone is cool, but if it was included in the episode, it would have ruined the pacing.
My question is why aren't they on the expensive boxsets we all bought?! (Unless they are, I'm a collector I haven't gotten around to them yet 😂😂)