The Five Doctors really established the two mainstays of Anniversary/ Multi-Doctor stories: either A, a famously iconic actor refuses to come back, or can't come back, leading to compromised ideas, or B we recast a deceased actor, to mixed results.
I like to think that One liked Five right away not because of anything specific about him, he just didn't like that the other Doctors were all old. Since YEARS later we see him meet Twelve and is immediately upset that he apparently doesn't get younger when he regenerates, so it's just funny to imagine that that's something he was holding out for his whole life and when he met Five was just happy to see that he would indeed get younger one day.
I like that take. Imagine living to old age and being promissed 12 regenerations then the next few regenerations appear to be late middle age. Really you would hope to return to your physical peak and age from there. I can imagine it waa considered brave casting to go for Davidson at the time. I heard people say Tennant and Smith were to young at the time as well.
@@paulaburrows8660 Thing is, that "crap" was already done by big finish anyway. In the gallifrey audios, rassilon's return is explained as them using force regeneration or something to effectively overwrite an elected politician with rassilon as they believe he's the only one who can win the time war. Its not exclusively a chibnall thing to swap bodies via regeneration.
The Five Doctors was my first Classic Who story - I bought it (and The Ark In Space) on DVD just after Series 1 ended, purely because I wanted to meet as many Doctors as possible! I actually found it to be a weirdly brilliant introduction, especially with all of the great companions and Gallifreyan lore. It was also engaging enough for little me and the pace of TV I was used to and it’s always such an easy rewatch. The soundtrack is so freaky and epic too!
11:19 Let me explain then. Appearance of Cybermen in this story was idea of script editor Eric Saward because Cybermen were his favorite villians. Terrance Dicks however hated Cybermen (which is the reason why they didn't appear during the third Doctor's era). So he wrote this scene of Raston Warrior Robot appearing with sole purpose of obliterating the cybermen.
@@The0thDoctor They weren't against the Daleks, it's more of the Nation Estate according to Dicks in the commentary. Even then, the Daleks would show up in the next season.
I find it an interesting coincidence that in the original draft of the 5 Doctors that the Cybermen plotted to become Cyber-Lords and that got recycled into the Timeless Children
I love The Five Doctors as a kid, and this was my first multi-Doctor story as a kid. I do love the cold open scene when the 1st Doctor does his farewell speech to Susan and I bet if you were watching this, I bet you might have no idea Susan was returning and I think that is what they were hinting at. I do think Richard Hurndall does good as the 1st Doctor, but he is not William Hartnell. I do love when each Doctor is going on each adventure which I liked. I do love the returning of the classic monsters in this story because of course it's an anniversary special. I do love the plot twist Borusa as the villain and some people who are not as they seem.
Saw this back when it first aired on PBS here in the States. As I had not been acquainted with Who (Tom Baker was my first Doctor), my little fifth grade mind was blown. Loved it.
I can't forgive how Peter Davidson portrayed seeing his granddaughter for the first time in centuries. #1 says, "This is my granddaughter, Susan." And all he does is say, "Yes, I know." What a wonderful moment to develop #5 even with a few more lines!
She wasn't the fifth doctors granddaughter though. She was a distant memory, and as each doctor starts over fresh, it felt like it was only a few years at most. Besides, she was annoying af
You have got to remember that the tigers have got a finite amount of time to tell the story. The Target books of the series for obvious reasons expand these scenes in far more detail, but the writers have got to fit the story into a 90 minute story.
It's very under-stated, but you could still see that 5 was happy to see her. Yes, a hug even would have been nice, but Peter Davison basically never does anything more than put a hand on someone's shoulder - not his call, but the whole "no hanky panky" rule. The recent Tales from the TARDIS episode with 5 and Tegan even saw him make comment about hugging...
I personally loved it - It certainly has shortcomings, but it manages to do quite a bit with its many moving parts, and let's not forget, it handles this many moving parts better than a lot of recent episodes have handled far fewer; in only double the runtime, it managed to give almost a dozen characters, 4 of whom are Doctors, more to do than recent years were able to manage only 1 Doctor and 3 Companions. Sure, each storyline was basic in its execution, but apart from Susan and Turlough, each character was either moving forward or investigating something in a consistent manner. I also thought most character interactions were well-written, like how Teagan and Doctor 1 interacted - it was quite well done. And the Raston Warrior Robot bit was kickass, adding some adrenaline in what was otherwise what one might call a "walking story". As for the ending, I'll agree it was anti-climactic, but I actually thought the resolution was actually a neat subversion of audience expectation, and considering the budget of the time (and the fact that the many sets likely completely ate up the budget given), it might have been a blessing in disguise that they didn't try something more epic and climactic. I just wish they gave more epilogue time to the four Doctors and Companions, like say maybe Susan meeting Troughton and Pertwee's incarnations.
I enjoyed it as well and stil rewatch these days. If you read the Target books of the show they go into far more detail because they have no restraints, 200, 300 pages, a tv production is limited by the budget and other factors such as the actors availability and having to tell the story over a 90 minute episode.
I was in college when this aired originally in the US. During the period leading up to that point, I learned that DOCTOR WHO existed (and, vaguely, what it was). So, when home for Thanksgiving, I saw a mention of this in the local newspaper...but didn't see it. Nor would I until (I think) 1987, because I didn't start watching the show on a regular basis until 1985. Still, better late than never.
Love the use of a WWE cutaway gag, more of those please. The Five Doctors is sublime Who storytelling and easily the best anniversary special the show has produced for television. It cleverly balances the new with the old and the fresh with the recycled, plus given the extra cash handed to the production team (cheers BBC Australia) does wonders with the extra location filming. Dicks really pulled out all the stops here for his last televised story even if Peter Moffat’s direction occasionally slumps (looking at you Sarah’s “cliff” fall) while Peter Howell’s music is gorgeous and rarely overplayed, only used where necessary letting the moments speak for themselves. The series really needs regular rotating composers again rather than just a singular man doing every story for an entire run for a Doctor or Showrunner. Thanks to the Special Edition and new 40th Anniversary edition, it’s also one of the most rewatchable Classic stories you could ask for.
Imagine an alternate version of the 60th specials where instead of the Toymaker the 14th Doctor faces off against the alluded foe the Terrible Zodin who makes her big debut
I always felt this story had too many missed opportunities and didn't reach it's full potential. They brush over Susan's reunion with the first Doctor when that should have been a massive emotional moment. (I would have liked to have seen her and David's farm too.) They could have scooped Jamie and Zoe and ultimately reversed their mind wipes. (They had the actors!) They could scoop Liz and gave her a "final" story with the thrid Doctor, one she really never got. For the fourth Doctor, they could have reused the Shada bike chase (where he's running from a floating object) instead of the wierd lagoon scene. And they could have ulitized Kamelion, honestly, it's criminal how little he was in the show.
Im gonna address some of your points, the reason Jamie and Zoe only have cameo roles is because they only could only give 1 day on set as they were tied up with other projects. The initial companion pair up plan was 1 and Susan, 2 and Jamie, 3 and the Brigadier and 4 and Sarah, but this has to be mixed up when Frazer Hines couldn't commit to it all and Tom Baker declined to appear. Kamelion initially was set to appear but his operator passed away after the Kings Demons and no-one actually knew how to operate him properly hence his absence for many stories and then quickly written out.
@@The0thDoctor I can understand the scheduling conflicts, that makes perfect sense. I've heard before that casting this thing was a nightmare. There is no excuse for excluding Kamelion though. He's a robot, yes, but a shape-shifting one, they could literally have him in human form 90% of the time.
We're talking about the same era where Nyssa lost her entire planet and people, but it was never mentioned again or Adric's death was quickly forgotten.
@@mayotango1317 Those are events. You can't just forget about an entire character. How many times did the Doctor leave him behind? Or how about Frontios when the TARDIS is destroyed? The Doctor shows no concern. It makes so sense. They introduced Kamelion, then he vanished. Then suddenly he was there again! I find it weird they added a new robot companion after K-9, who routinely caused issues while filming.
Good points. It’s easy for fans to say, they should have done this but the reality is they had a limited budget, fitting in all those characters in such detail would have meant spreading a 90 minute show into several episodes, they simply did not have the budget and recourses to do that.
How dare you! ;) The Five Docs has a very special place in my fandom heart, coming out when I was all of 6 years old. I can remember my mum asking if I should go to bed, after having been hyped about it all day, and then being on the verge of sleep for half the story because it aired quite late considering normal episodes were at 5.30pm - 6pm, and this I believe started at 8pm or 9pm here in Oz. Is the story lacking?? Yep. I can't disagree. It could certainly have done with "something" more - perhaps the occasional sneak peak at Rassilon as the story progressed, and instead of a disembodied head - he could have appeared as a full body apparition instead. But, it is what it is, a celebration of 25 Glorious Years. Sorry - 20 Wonderous Years. Uncle Terry did what he could with what he was given - both in terms of direction from JN-T (to jam in as much as possible), and what was available to him. I absolutely agree that if Tom had appeared, he would have stolen the show from Peter, which would have been a huge shame for the incumbent Doctor. A story written by Holmes would have been very interesting, and - no offense to Uncle - probably would have been better. (I mean - Holmes!) This was one of our first VHS tapes, and we ended up having to buy another copy because we wore it out, before then buying the Special Edition VHS, before then buying the DVD, and the 2nd DVD, and - well, I'm in Australia, so the BluRay Box Sets are now just a thing of legend. I appreciate the work you've put into this video (and the others I've watched) - well done. And the correct answer is - it's an amazing masterpiece and we all love it and let's never talk of it again.
Great points. I remember my mum watching Miss Marple episodes and being critical of how certain parts of a story were shortened or missed out all together. I explained that the books might be three or four hundred pages long, the writers and producers have got to tell their story over a finite amount of time, with The Five Doctors they only had 90 minutes, today with CGI and a large budget they would be able to spread it over several episodes.
This was the first ever episode of Doctor Who i watched as a kid - it was the first to see a DVD release and i remember watching it over and over not knowing what was going on but loving it, so i'm pretty biased on this story being one of my favourites of all time. My only critique when i was younger was K9 not having a larger role as he was my favourite, i believe Terrance Dicks had to to fight to even include him at all.
For me the simultaneously best and worst parts of this special is when Davison as 5 gets to say lines and act in scenes that were clearly intended for Baker as 4. The whole confrontation with Barusa you can see Davison trying to stay true to his Doctor when speaking lines that clearly ring of Bakers incarnation and it is Glorious!
The war robot gets funnier when you know why it exists, one of the writers loved the cybermen to a point where he would shove them into any story he worked on and made them the best thing ever, the other writers and producers were getting sick of this and came up with the war robot to get rid of them from the story without wasting the budget.
I'm increasingly of the mind these days that if Classic Who was to ideally end before it got really bad in the 80's, this was probably the rightest rest-point overall.
problem was budget needed a long overdue upgrade and 6th outfit and attitude in twin dilemma & S23+S24 being bad when the show got good again it was too late.
@@Cyber_Smoke I'd say it was more the wrong people being in charge, and a good number of the stories (Warriors of the Deep, Twin Dilemma) being a bad idea from the start. So we had less money riding appalling scripts with a repugnant lead. If anything it's amazing the show survived Seasons 21-14
The funny thing about The Tomb of Rassillon being based on Childe Roland To The Dark Tower Came is that one year before The Five Doctors, the first Dark Tower novel was released
I remember giving this a go back when Doctor Who was quite new to me. I think it was 2011? I recall it being all a bit meh, fun but meh. That I think came from the fact I'd never seen any of these Doctor's stories and companions so that emotional connection wasn't there, I knew of them but didn't really experience them like others had.
I love the five doctors. also they mention heading to the eye of orion at the end of the previous story - the king's demons - so it's got a good bit of continuity that really wasn't necessary and would only really be appreciated by people paying a lot of attention at the time or now, in a way that wasn't intended, due to the availability of home media. I also really prefer the look of gallifrey in this compared to new who. maybe I'm a sucker for wet, green, damp countryside, but in new who it's so monochrome orange. even if the grass was green and orange-tipped, it would be so much more interesting than... orange skies, orange hills, and the citadel. ik that there's desert outside the citadel, but I feel like in new who the way it's presented makes it feel like the entirety of gallifrey is desert. and that's what I like about the death zone. it presents a different biome, and I wish it was something more explored. speaking of exploration, this story gives such a cool glimpse into the culture and history of gallifrey that was desperately needed! but I disagree about five not feeling like the star of his own story - I don't think any one doctor is the main doctor. insisting that it must have a main doctor gives the story a disservice; having four doctors to juggle, it would've meant more than just four being shoved to they wayside to have one be the centre compared to the others. I think about it like this; at the start it is introduced that a time lord is very much the sum of its parts. up until every doctor reaches the tower, each doctor's story is separate, a part, and once they have, the stories start threading together into one. I think that is a very interesting writing technique and it actually does leave me wanting more, which I think for dr who is a good thing.
When I was a kid and watched it when it first aired, I was so angry for ages that Sarah Jane had K9, I live in Australia and had no idea about that attempted spin off with K9. No internet back then of cause and we didn't get that one episode.
I mean to be fair, while the revival series could have used older doctors. If we just wanted revival only doctors. Technically with the 15th doctor(since 10 & 14 are both tennant), we could have 6 on screen doctors, with just the revival ones. Not sure we want that, but it would be impressive. We could get the old doctors too, but damn that feels sooooo much, with just 5.
So I think a lot of fans assume the Master was offered a full new set of regenerations. I will admit the wording is a bit ambiguous and open to interpretation. The exact quote is: BORUSA: Regeneration. A complete new life cycle. MASTER: What must I do? Borusa specifically says "regeneration" not "regenerations". Now the following line complicates matters a bit "a complete new life cycle" in general terms could mean from the point of regeneration to death...or it could mean granting 12 new regenerations... So either way they are offering the Master at least one regeneration, but are they offering him twelve? Again I do think its open enough to left fans theorize... but honestly, the more I think about it... the less I feel they would grant the Master a full 12 new regenerations. They basically call him the worst thing their race has ever produced... and while I think they intend to hold up their end of the bargain because the Master is a useful asset... I don't see them wanting to keep him around for any longer than they have too.
I took it to mean a complete new set of regenerations, keep in mind they also said it was an alternative to their renegade existance so they maybe they would've tweaked it so he wouldnt be so evil
And I definitely think that is plausible.... like I do believe it is opened to interpretation. Frankly though I suspect it is a moot point. I feel either offer, may have been enough for the Master to agree and help.@@The0thDoctor
I loved the raston WR.. as child of the 70s to a 13 Yr old....at the time this episode had an massive audience being aired within CIN night...so production values are higher than usual.... hence my defence of the RWR and episode as a whole.. this 13 Yr old version was squealing with delight at whole story though it becomes plodding at times
Here in America it was always cut in 4 parts, I didn't even know it had been a single special until Much later. That said, I always puzzled at how horrible the "cliffhangers" were. Esp Sarah Jane rolling down a slight inclined plane. BTW, nice job with the Rostam Monty Python bit, I didn't see that coming and I literally LMAO!
So uncanny valley! Harbo lets him off quite softly here. If I remember correctly Tom did not want to be involved if he was not going to be the star. I love Tom Baker, mad old badger that he is.
just paused here to say watching the recently open access to the Whoinverse.... the 1st Dr has some sexism due it's place in time writing wise and the Tegan n Tea situation was a nod to the past...in my opinion....as was his response to her calling him Doc. being 55 now....I saw Richard Hurndell in an Episode of Blake's 7 in 1981 and instantly had him down for a good recast fit 2 years before JNT.
It wasn't the climax i minded with the betrayal of the president and Rassilon. It was more the resolution. As if they all just said "well done everyone lets go home" and they did. In general i consider it the strongest crossover of the classic era even if the resolution was weak.
02:18 That's a microfibre cloth. He loves the Tardis. 11:20 I couldn't help see the Weeping Angels as a re-draft of The Raston Warrior Robot. Play the Robot backwards and it'd be morest terrifying! 16:15 Technically it's sound science that Rassilon is a chubby fella tho his corpse is slim but it did stick out, as bellies do. The eyes under his tomb are creepy AF. It so relies on 80s Tech.
I will say as a kid I enjoyed this ep cause its probably the closest pacing wise to nu who as the 90 minute format works a lot better these days than the sometimes stretched out standard classic eps
I agree that there is way too much going on, making the plot feels rather clunky, but i think the character interactions still manage to make it a fun story.
Well, there were certainly problems with it, but it's still a fun show to watch, so I can't be too critical of it. I started watching Doctor Who somewhere in the middle of the Tom Baker period, so this was my first introduction to the earlier Doctors. I really liked the Raston Warrior Robot. It seemed like something from the early days of Doctor Who, quirky and physically impossible for the Doctor to overcome, so he has to come up with a witty and clever way to overcome it.
i think this episode has a message. no 1 should be the doctor forever. you become the doctor for a few seasons, you leave the role. i see that in this adventure.
I really love the idea of the five doctors its got the basis of what any big timetravel special should have which are characters returning and characters who have never met before interacting and seeing how that works out, but at least for me they still fall flat in these areas. keeping the companions tied to doctors they already have relationships with might pander to the audience but it squanders the character writing potential of the premise. Maybe it is because of my bias but i dont really like the portrayal of the 1st doctor he's too passive, and the third and the 5th doctors i've just never really got on with them so i was really just there for Patrick troughton who is always amazing. I dunno 6/10 enjoyable enough just nothing great either.
It's kind of ironic to see the Doctors and Rassilon leave on amiable terms when future appearances in the EU and Revival series paint him as a total bastard
I think Davison mentioned that was his main complaint of the story that he didnt really see till afterwards is how for most of the story the Doctors are apart and dont come together till the very end
The first Doctors were from a different era where women were not treated as equals. More importantly, the first Doctor talks down a bit to men and women. He was that way with all of his companions. I believe this show gave fans what was needed at the time. It couldn’t be a Genesis of the Daleks type of story. Leela could’ve been on the High Council or a member/leader of the guards. Would’ve given 5th Doctor a chance to play off a former companion. Or maybe a story where Doctors were thrown back in time to facilitate stealing the Tardis & starting it all.lol
I'm really not a fan of The Five Doctors. It's just a load of nostalgic elements thrown together with a horrible script. Virtually every multi-Doctor story is better than this. It kind of has the opposite problem to Day of the Doctor. That's a great episode, but a terrible anniversary celebration. This is a decent anniversary celebration but an appalling episode.
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The Five Doctors really established the two mainstays of Anniversary/ Multi-Doctor stories: either A, a famously iconic actor refuses to come back, or can't come back, leading to compromised ideas, or B we recast a deceased actor, to mixed results.
I like to think that One liked Five right away not because of anything specific about him, he just didn't like that the other Doctors were all old. Since YEARS later we see him meet Twelve and is immediately upset that he apparently doesn't get younger when he regenerates, so it's just funny to imagine that that's something he was holding out for his whole life and when he met Five was just happy to see that he would indeed get younger one day.
“Oh my goodness so there are five of us now!” 😅😍🥰😁
Oh Hurndall One, never change…😅😁
I like that take. Imagine living to old age and being promissed 12 regenerations then the next few regenerations appear to be late middle age. Really you would hope to return to your physical peak and age from there. I can imagine it waa considered brave casting to go for Davidson at the time. I heard people say Tennant and Smith were to young at the time as well.
Kind of crazy to think that technically Power of the Doctor has more companions and more Doctors than this one does
Who cares. The Chibnall era sucks.
The Doctors in POTD wernt even proper - just manifestations & hologram type visages.
Not to mention the Master body swap crap. Seriously what was the point.
Well...technically the Day of the Doctor has the most :)
@@paulaburrows8660 Thing is, that "crap" was already done by big finish anyway. In the gallifrey audios, rassilon's return is explained as them using force regeneration or something to effectively overwrite an elected politician with rassilon as they believe he's the only one who can win the time war. Its not exclusively a chibnall thing to swap bodies via regeneration.
The Five Doctors was my first Classic Who story - I bought it (and The Ark In Space) on DVD just after Series 1 ended, purely because I wanted to meet as many Doctors as possible! I actually found it to be a weirdly brilliant introduction, especially with all of the great companions and Gallifreyan lore. It was also engaging enough for little me and the pace of TV I was used to and it’s always such an easy rewatch. The soundtrack is so freaky and epic too!
11:19 Let me explain then.
Appearance of Cybermen in this story was idea of script editor Eric Saward because Cybermen were his favorite villians. Terrance Dicks however hated Cybermen (which is the reason why they didn't appear during the third Doctor's era). So he wrote this scene of Raston Warrior Robot appearing with sole purpose of obliterating the cybermen.
I believe they were also against the Daleks showing up at all either, which is there was only the cameo scene.
They had a limited budget, they had to fit the story into a 90 minute episode, today they would be able to spread the story over several episodes.
@@The0thDoctor They weren't against the Daleks, it's more of the Nation Estate according to Dicks in the commentary. Even then, the Daleks would show up in the next season.
I find it an interesting coincidence that in the original draft of the 5 Doctors that the Cybermen plotted to become Cyber-Lords and that got recycled into the Timeless Children
I love The Five Doctors as a kid, and this was my first multi-Doctor story as a kid. I do love the cold open scene when the 1st Doctor does his farewell speech to Susan and I bet if you were watching this, I bet you might have no idea Susan was returning and I think that is what they were hinting at. I do think Richard Hurndall does good as the 1st Doctor, but he is not William Hartnell. I do love when each Doctor is going on each adventure which I liked. I do love the returning of the classic monsters in this story because of course it's an anniversary special. I do love the plot twist Borusa as the villain and some people who are not as they seem.
Saw this back when it first aired on PBS here in the States. As I had not been acquainted with Who (Tom Baker was my first Doctor), my little fifth grade mind was blown. Loved it.
I can't forgive how Peter Davidson portrayed seeing his granddaughter for the first time in centuries. #1 says, "This is my granddaughter, Susan." And all he does is say, "Yes, I know." What a wonderful moment to develop #5 even with a few more lines!
She wasn't the fifth doctors granddaughter though. She was a distant memory, and as each doctor starts over fresh, it felt like it was only a few years at most. Besides, she was annoying af
You have got to remember that the tigers have got a finite amount of time to tell the story. The Target books of the series for obvious reasons expand these scenes in far more detail, but the writers have got to fit the story into a 90 minute story.
It's very under-stated, but you could still see that 5 was happy to see her. Yes, a hug even would have been nice, but Peter Davison basically never does anything more than put a hand on someone's shoulder - not his call, but the whole "no hanky panky" rule. The recent Tales from the TARDIS episode with 5 and Tegan even saw him make comment about hugging...
I personally loved it - It certainly has shortcomings, but it manages to do quite a bit with its many moving parts, and let's not forget, it handles this many moving parts better than a lot of recent episodes have handled far fewer; in only double the runtime, it managed to give almost a dozen characters, 4 of whom are Doctors, more to do than recent years were able to manage only 1 Doctor and 3 Companions. Sure, each storyline was basic in its execution, but apart from Susan and Turlough, each character was either moving forward or investigating something in a consistent manner. I also thought most character interactions were well-written, like how Teagan and Doctor 1 interacted - it was quite well done. And the Raston Warrior Robot bit was kickass, adding some adrenaline in what was otherwise what one might call a "walking story".
As for the ending, I'll agree it was anti-climactic, but I actually thought the resolution was actually a neat subversion of audience expectation, and considering the budget of the time (and the fact that the many sets likely completely ate up the budget given), it might have been a blessing in disguise that they didn't try something more epic and climactic. I just wish they gave more epilogue time to the four Doctors and Companions, like say maybe Susan meeting Troughton and Pertwee's incarnations.
I enjoyed it as well and stil rewatch these days. If you read the Target books of the show they go into far more detail because they have no restraints, 200, 300 pages, a tv production is limited by the budget and other factors such as the actors availability and having to tell the story over a 90 minute episode.
I was in college when this aired originally in the US. During the period leading up to that point, I learned that DOCTOR WHO existed (and, vaguely, what it was). So, when home for Thanksgiving, I saw a mention of this in the local newspaper...but didn't see it. Nor would I until (I think) 1987, because I didn't start watching the show on a regular basis until 1985. Still, better late than never.
Love the use of a WWE cutaway gag, more of those please. The Five Doctors is sublime Who storytelling and easily the best anniversary special the show has produced for television. It cleverly balances the new with the old and the fresh with the recycled, plus given the extra cash handed to the production team (cheers BBC Australia) does wonders with the extra location filming. Dicks really pulled out all the stops here for his last televised story even if Peter Moffat’s direction occasionally slumps (looking at you Sarah’s “cliff” fall) while Peter Howell’s music is gorgeous and rarely overplayed, only used where necessary letting the moments speak for themselves. The series really needs regular rotating composers again rather than just a singular man doing every story for an entire run for a Doctor or Showrunner. Thanks to the Special Edition and new 40th Anniversary edition, it’s also one of the most rewatchable Classic stories you could ask for.
2:11 Foreshadowing
Imagine an alternate version of the 60th specials where instead of the Toymaker the 14th Doctor faces off against the alluded foe the Terrible Zodin who makes her big debut
I always felt this story had too many missed opportunities and didn't reach it's full potential.
They brush over Susan's reunion with the first Doctor when that should have been a massive emotional moment. (I would have liked to have seen her and David's farm too.)
They could have scooped Jamie and Zoe and ultimately reversed their mind wipes. (They had the actors!)
They could scoop Liz and gave her a "final" story with the thrid Doctor, one she really never got.
For the fourth Doctor, they could have reused the Shada bike chase (where he's running from a floating object) instead of the wierd lagoon scene.
And they could have ulitized Kamelion, honestly, it's criminal how little he was in the show.
Im gonna address some of your points, the reason Jamie and Zoe only have cameo roles is because they only could only give 1 day on set as they were tied up with other projects. The initial companion pair up plan was 1 and Susan, 2 and Jamie, 3 and the Brigadier and 4 and Sarah, but this has to be mixed up when Frazer Hines couldn't commit to it all and Tom Baker declined to appear.
Kamelion initially was set to appear but his operator passed away after the Kings Demons and no-one actually knew how to operate him properly hence his absence for many stories and then quickly written out.
@@The0thDoctor I can understand the scheduling conflicts, that makes perfect sense. I've heard before that casting this thing was a nightmare.
There is no excuse for excluding Kamelion though. He's a robot, yes, but a shape-shifting one, they could literally have him in human form 90% of the time.
We're talking about the same era where Nyssa lost her entire planet and people, but it was never mentioned again or Adric's death was quickly forgotten.
@@mayotango1317 Those are events. You can't just forget about an entire character. How many times did the Doctor leave him behind? Or how about Frontios when the TARDIS is destroyed? The Doctor shows no concern. It makes so sense.
They introduced Kamelion, then he vanished. Then suddenly he was there again! I find it weird they added a new robot companion after K-9, who routinely caused issues while filming.
Good points. It’s easy for fans to say, they should have done this but the reality is they had a limited budget, fitting in all those characters in such detail would have meant spreading a 90 minute show into several episodes, they simply did not have the budget and recourses to do that.
Crazy how this was our introduction to Rassilon.
The 5 Doctor's should have been called the Four-ish Doctor's. It was messy. It was 1983.
That cut to Monty python was hilarious
How dare you! ;)
The Five Docs has a very special place in my fandom heart, coming out when I was all of 6 years old. I can remember my mum asking if I should go to bed, after having been hyped about it all day, and then being on the verge of sleep for half the story because it aired quite late considering normal episodes were at 5.30pm - 6pm, and this I believe started at 8pm or 9pm here in Oz.
Is the story lacking?? Yep. I can't disagree. It could certainly have done with "something" more - perhaps the occasional sneak peak at Rassilon as the story progressed, and instead of a disembodied head - he could have appeared as a full body apparition instead. But, it is what it is, a celebration of 25 Glorious Years. Sorry - 20 Wonderous Years.
Uncle Terry did what he could with what he was given - both in terms of direction from JN-T (to jam in as much as possible), and what was available to him. I absolutely agree that if Tom had appeared, he would have stolen the show from Peter, which would have been a huge shame for the incumbent Doctor. A story written by Holmes would have been very interesting, and - no offense to Uncle - probably would have been better. (I mean - Holmes!)
This was one of our first VHS tapes, and we ended up having to buy another copy because we wore it out, before then buying the Special Edition VHS, before then buying the DVD, and the 2nd DVD, and - well, I'm in Australia, so the BluRay Box Sets are now just a thing of legend.
I appreciate the work you've put into this video (and the others I've watched) - well done. And the correct answer is - it's an amazing masterpiece and we all love it and let's never talk of it again.
Great points. I remember my mum watching Miss Marple episodes and being critical of how certain parts of a story were shortened or missed out all together. I explained that the books might be three or four hundred pages long, the writers and producers have got to tell their story over a finite amount of time, with The Five Doctors they only had 90 minutes, today with CGI and a large budget they would be able to spread it over several episodes.
One bonus of the Raston Robot's scenes is that they were a rare - perhaps the only? - instance where John Nathan Turner was in the director's chair.
This was the first ever episode of Doctor Who i watched as a kid - it was the first to see a DVD release and i remember watching it over and over not knowing what was going on but loving it, so i'm pretty biased on this story being one of my favourites of all time. My only critique when i was younger was K9 not having a larger role as he was my favourite, i believe Terrance Dicks had to to fight to even include him at all.
I always have a special place in my heart, this was one of the first episodes I remember watching!
For me the simultaneously best and worst parts of this special is when Davison as 5 gets to say lines and act in scenes that were clearly intended for Baker as 4.
The whole confrontation with Barusa you can see Davison trying to stay true to his Doctor when speaking lines that clearly ring of Bakers incarnation and it is Glorious!
Jon Pertwee jumps back into the role with both feet, and it almost felt like he never left!
The war robot gets funnier when you know why it exists, one of the writers loved the cybermen to a point where he would shove them into any story he worked on and made them the best thing ever, the other writers and producers were getting sick of this and came up with the war robot to get rid of them from the story without wasting the budget.
I like that technically, the 1st Doctor did the most by daring the villain to put the ring on. Good bit of trolling.
I'm increasingly of the mind these days that if Classic Who was to ideally end before it got really bad in the 80's, this was probably the rightest rest-point overall.
Does mean we would have lost out on 7 though…
problem was budget needed a long overdue upgrade and 6th outfit and attitude in twin dilemma & S23+S24 being bad when the show got good again it was too late.
@@Cyber_Smoke I'd say it was more the wrong people being in charge, and a good number of the stories (Warriors of the Deep, Twin Dilemma) being a bad idea from the start. So we had less money riding appalling scripts with a repugnant lead. If anything it's amazing the show survived Seasons 21-14
The funny thing about The Tomb of Rassillon being based on Childe Roland To The Dark Tower Came is that one year before The Five Doctors, the first Dark Tower novel was released
"Keeping the show fresh" as they show the returning David Tennant.
I remember giving this a go back when Doctor Who was quite new to me. I think it was 2011? I recall it being all a bit meh, fun but meh. That I think came from the fact I'd never seen any of these Doctor's stories and companions so that emotional connection wasn't there, I knew of them but didn't really experience them like others had.
I love the five doctors. also they mention heading to the eye of orion at the end of the previous story - the king's demons - so it's got a good bit of continuity that really wasn't necessary and would only really be appreciated by people paying a lot of attention at the time or now, in a way that wasn't intended, due to the availability of home media.
I also really prefer the look of gallifrey in this compared to new who. maybe I'm a sucker for wet, green, damp countryside, but in new who it's so monochrome orange. even if the grass was green and orange-tipped, it would be so much more interesting than... orange skies, orange hills, and the citadel. ik that there's desert outside the citadel, but I feel like in new who the way it's presented makes it feel like the entirety of gallifrey is desert. and that's what I like about the death zone. it presents a different biome, and I wish it was something more explored. speaking of exploration, this story gives such a cool glimpse into the culture and history of gallifrey that was desperately needed!
but I disagree about five not feeling like the star of his own story - I don't think any one doctor is the main doctor. insisting that it must have a main doctor gives the story a disservice; having four doctors to juggle, it would've meant more than just four being shoved to they wayside to have one be the centre compared to the others. I think about it like this; at the start it is introduced that a time lord is very much the sum of its parts. up until every doctor reaches the tower, each doctor's story is separate, a part, and once they have, the stories start threading together into one. I think that is a very interesting writing technique and it actually does leave me wanting more, which I think for dr who is a good thing.
Well 2:11 jinxed us
This always bugged me. How did the 3rd doctor recognize the master when he hasn't met that version?
Same reason why 12 didn’t recognise missy until she had to outright say it 🤪
When I was a kid and watched it when it first aired, I was so angry for ages that Sarah Jane had K9, I live in Australia and had no idea about that attempted spin off with K9. No internet back then of cause and we didn't get that one episode.
I mean to be fair, while the revival series could have used older doctors. If we just wanted revival only doctors.
Technically with the 15th doctor(since 10 & 14 are both tennant), we could have 6 on screen doctors, with just the revival ones. Not sure we want that, but it would be impressive.
We could get the old doctors too, but damn that feels sooooo much, with just 5.
I hate how the five doctors only has 4 doctors (tom baker not being involved except from archive footage) absolutely kills the episode for me
I'll never forget when we got the the Target novel before the episode aired. Iwas a ridiculously happy Australian fan
I am not the man i once was thank goodnes -fifth doctor,harbo You should talk about that line
So I think a lot of fans assume the Master was offered a full new set of regenerations.
I will admit the wording is a bit ambiguous and open to interpretation. The exact quote is:
BORUSA: Regeneration. A complete new life cycle.
MASTER: What must I do?
Borusa specifically says "regeneration" not "regenerations". Now the following line complicates matters a bit "a complete new life cycle" in general terms could mean from the point of regeneration to death...or it could mean granting 12 new regenerations...
So either way they are offering the Master at least one regeneration, but are they offering him twelve? Again I do think its open enough to left fans theorize... but honestly, the more I think about it... the less I feel they would grant the Master a full 12 new regenerations. They basically call him the worst thing their race has ever produced... and while I think they intend to hold up their end of the bargain because the Master is a useful asset... I don't see them wanting to keep him around for any longer than they have too.
I took it to mean a complete new set of regenerations, keep in mind they also said it was an alternative to their renegade existance so they maybe they would've tweaked it so he wouldnt be so evil
And I definitely think that is plausible.... like I do believe it is opened to interpretation. Frankly though I suspect it is a moot point. I feel either offer, may have been enough for the Master to agree and help.@@The0thDoctor
This story was the first time Sarah Jane met The Master and the first time The First and Second Doctors met The Master
I loved the raston WR.. as child of the 70s to a 13 Yr old....at the time this episode had an massive audience being aired within CIN night...so production values are higher than usual....
hence my defence of the RWR and episode as a whole..
this 13 Yr old version was squealing with delight at whole story though it becomes plodding at times
Here in America it was always cut in 4 parts, I didn't even know it had been a single special until Much later. That said, I always puzzled at how horrible the "cliffhangers" were. Esp Sarah Jane rolling down a slight inclined plane.
BTW, nice job with the Rostam Monty Python bit, I didn't see that coming and I literally LMAO!
Too bad Tom Baker didn't want to be more involved. They even had to use a wax stand-in of him for the promotional shot. Eek @0:44
So uncanny valley! Harbo lets him off quite softly here. If I remember correctly Tom did not want to be involved if he was not going to be the star. I love Tom Baker, mad old badger that he is.
just paused here to say watching the recently open access to the Whoinverse....
the 1st Dr has some sexism due it's place in time writing wise and the Tegan n Tea situation was a nod to the past...in my opinion....as was his response to her calling him Doc.
being 55 now....I saw Richard Hurndell in an Episode of Blake's 7 in 1981 and instantly had him down for a good recast fit 2 years before JNT.
It wasn't the climax i minded with the betrayal of the president and Rassilon. It was more the resolution. As if they all just said "well done everyone lets go home" and they did.
In general i consider it the strongest crossover of the classic era even if the resolution was weak.
02:18 That's a microfibre cloth. He loves the Tardis.
11:20 I couldn't help see the Weeping Angels as a re-draft of The Raston Warrior Robot. Play the Robot backwards and it'd be morest terrifying!
16:15 Technically it's sound science that Rassilon is a chubby fella tho his corpse is slim but it did stick out, as bellies do. The eyes under his tomb are creepy AF. It so relies on 80s Tech.
5 doctors, more like 4 1/2 doctors
9:32 I can't wait to hear you talk about that episode!
I will say as a kid I enjoyed this ep cause its probably the closest pacing wise to nu who as the 90 minute format works a lot better these days than the sometimes stretched out standard classic eps
I agree that there is way too much going on, making the plot feels rather clunky, but i think the character interactions still manage to make it a fun story.
Well, there were certainly problems with it, but it's still a fun show to watch, so I can't be too critical of it. I started watching Doctor Who somewhere in the middle of the Tom Baker period, so this was my first introduction to the earlier Doctors. I really liked the Raston Warrior Robot. It seemed like something from the early days of Doctor Who, quirky and physically impossible for the Doctor to overcome, so he has to come up with a witty and clever way to overcome it.
Harbo’s just stalling before doing the heaven sent review
I love that episode, but I also agree with many of your assessments.
I will happily take The 5 Doctors over ANY multi doctor episode. And sadly that includes the 60th anniversary specials.
THIS IS THE ONE I HAD BEEN WAIRING FOR! Just a little late to the party.
i think this episode has a message. no 1 should be the doctor forever. you become the doctor for a few seasons, you leave the role. i see that in this adventure.
Anyone interested in the monkey's paw story should check out The Simpsons parody of it. It's a really smart retelling of the iconic tale.
Will you be doing The Two Doctors for this, just out of curiosity?
I really love the idea of the five doctors its got the basis of what any big timetravel special should have which are characters returning and characters who have never met before interacting and seeing how that works out, but at least for me they still fall flat in these areas. keeping the companions tied to doctors they already have relationships with might pander to the audience but it squanders the character writing potential of the premise.
Maybe it is because of my bias but i dont really like the portrayal of the 1st doctor he's too passive, and the third and the 5th doctors i've just never really got on with them so i was really just there for Patrick troughton who is always amazing.
I dunno 6/10 enjoyable enough just nothing great either.
It's kind of ironic to see the Doctors and Rassilon leave on amiable terms when future appearances in the EU and Revival series paint him as a total bastard
The 5 minus 4th Doctor😢
Things get worse for Borusa in the book Engines of War
Well they used to keep it moveing forward then they brought ten back
Great vid
Once again, I have to disagree with you. I think The Five Doctors remains the gold standard for anniversary specials and multi-Doctor stories.
2:18
I used to fancy Teagan something rotten
DO IT!
It was a shame Troughton and Pertwee were kept apart for most of the story.
I think Davison mentioned that was his main complaint of the story that he didnt really see till afterwards is how for most of the story the Doctors are apart and dont come together till the very end
The first Doctors were from a different era where women were not treated as equals. More importantly, the first Doctor talks down a bit to men and women. He was that way with all of his companions.
I believe this show gave fans what was needed at the time. It couldn’t be a Genesis of the Daleks type of story.
Leela could’ve been on the High Council or a member/leader of the guards. Would’ve given 5th Doctor a chance to play off a former companion.
Or maybe a story where Doctors were thrown back in time to facilitate stealing the Tardis & starting it all.lol
You had to be there. That's all. Same with Star Wars.
hate twice upon time first doctor as wasn't sexist but fist doctor was grumpy selfish also can be caring grandfather at same time seen with vici
Too harsh
I'm really not a fan of The Five Doctors. It's just a load of nostalgic elements thrown together with a horrible script. Virtually every multi-Doctor story is better than this.
It kind of has the opposite problem to Day of the Doctor. That's a great episode, but a terrible anniversary celebration. This is a decent anniversary celebration but an appalling episode.
Well, of course it is a great anniversary, since the melodrama of the Time War was finally over and the Doctor finally forgave himself.
13:14 exfulxingscuse me?