For combat my fix is: Missiles, Melee and Magic. Party tells me what they do/attack with and that determines the turn order. Players fire bows/thrown weapons then enemies do that. Players swing axes, then enemy does, magic casters go off last. For a social fix: I ditched charisma, replaced it with a trust mechanic to be spent like currency and sometimes a dice roll. Convincing an NPC to do something might just require trust, if it's contested by an outside factor, dice roll. Trust is generated by taking quests, completing quests, and good roleplay. Rulings over rules for me.
I was thinking of doing something similar, at least trying it out. I think having shorter sequences and turns that move faster around the table is better. This said, I might try something akin to Daggerheart's initiativeless system as well..
I am also very much into the narrative elements of the hobby, but I feel like I go even further than most people in the space, since I don't like to look at the events in the game just through the lens of the capabilities of the characters. Which is why I kicked rolls to check if a character can do something are absent from my own system design. Games like Everway and Fiasco have been hugely influential for me, but I did not went diceless like those system, I had to invent the wheel anew on how I use dice in a different manner than most systems do. I totally agree with you on that fire thing, the same goes also for plant life, especially wooden creatures which for some reason are treated very often like their are vulnerable to fire, but are just as difficult to be inflamed as and human would be. Guess most game designers never went on a LARP or just on a camping trip hand have no idea how fire works. Regarding social rules are similar something people seem not to grasp how social interaction work. My approach is to handle them more like a haggling system, that you have to offer something to gain something. There is no way to simply get people to do what you want with just a roll. Give them an incentive, and then the NPC is interested in that or they are not. Again, that approach of looking at social interaction through the lens of the capability of the character is just horrible in my opinion.
Fiasco has picked my interest. I need to look into that. But I must say, for me, dice are essential. There’s a gambler in me when it comes to RPGs. Never outside of them, though! :)
Hello Jericho, I largely agree with you that rules are best when they resolve conflicts with too many values to micro-manage (like combat). I have a similar approach to resolving negotiation as you do: let the folks talk it out, and the scenario should largely be affected by the arguments presented by the PCs and the interests of the other party. Exceptions would be, of course, if PCs are trying to use deception, intimidation, or are really trying to get the other party to go outside their interests. A particularly compelling argument should succeed without requiring a die roll at all. Furthermore, in game terms, such an encounter could earn the party 1 xp as well. Even though a die was not used to resolve a challenge, a die roll *would* have been necessary but for good choices and strong role playing by the players, which is the sort of thing that the machine should be rewarding. Incidentally, one thing lacking in Symbaroum, in my opinion, and which I am thinking of house ruling in, is something akin to the inspiration die from 5e. I like having an immediate tangible reward that I can give to players who come up with creative solutions to problems that make use of and strengthen the lore/environment within which the encounter is situated. I don't think an inspiration die would be terribly disproportionate in Symbaroum, and would be worth 1 xp as the cost of rerolling any die: so an immediate reward of some value that is proportionate. I'm not a fan of random encounters in the sense of something rolled by the GM at the table to flesh out on the fly, but I do appreciate a list of possible encounters and encounter seeds that I can mull over and customize while planning a session. I like the examples of dangers in the Davokar, but to be honest, I think I would have preferred something a bit more complex. I found the dangers to be a bit... thin. Maybe I am being too picky. I am grateful for the tables that were provided, and there are some good ideas in there, but the examples seem a bit underwhelming based on how prominently the Davokar features in the setting. I feel like the list could be fleshed out a bit, but I'm having a hard time coming up with new items to add to the list. Right now, I'm looking at compounding things to increase the costs of regular adventuring: bad weather to slow movement, spoil food, and impose penalties due to cold; creatures and plants that dispense poison and corruption, disease, and corrupted terrain to give them a sense of going through their resources quickly and needing to pay attention to how they are going to plan out periods of rest; overall giving the PCs a sense of their margins of error having been noticeably diminished. But even then, it feels a bit flat, like I'm missing something. Chasing is also something that feels flat, as you point out. I am toying with making chase scenes a bit more interactive and requiring choices by players. Perhaps the existing contested die rolls could be supplemented with points that the PC/NPC involved in the chase would accumulate and could then spend to either add complications to the chase (obstacles, slip and fall, someone comes to the assistance of one party or another). Die rolls without decisions by the players seems like an unfinished mechanic. But chases should not drag out, as you say, and should be resolved quickly. Not easy to come up with the right mix of speed, complexity, and tension without burning out the GM! I do like the abilities that have both in-combat as well as out of combat elements, and wish there could have been a bit more. I"m thinking of the tactical surveying ability of Tactician, and the benefits to motivating a group of people in Leader. This kind of approach provides some nice utility to powers that could otherwise be limited to combat situations.
All excellent points! I’d say I agree with all of them. I too am looking for those sweet spot mechanics that come in to help out, that give us creative juice to bounce off of. Not that many games are designed that way, strangely. If I reduce it to its most simple expression, I’d say we GMs need help for all areas where we need to wing it because the players are doing something random. Setting generation, vista generation, stock NPCs generation, psychological states generation. A bit like oracles used in solo play, we need those tools also in group play. And the more I think about it, the more cards come to mind as a nice easy way to make these prompts a simple hands on mechanic: pick a card. I’ve got to think about this more…
I do like the idea of cards as a way of introducing complications on the fly. Your idea of high-level descriptions of NPCs (and names) that can be introduced quickly is also very good. The card can provide seeds, and the players and the environment provide the rest of the dramatic elements. I also sympathize with your frustration with initiative, but an alternative is difficult. The first thing that comes to mind is a round based process that starts with the person closest to the action (much like a surprise action) rather than the person with the highest initiative.
Hello Jericho, Quelques points intéressants que tu as soulevé, dans le désordre: Alors d’abord je tiens à préciser que je ne connais pas d’autres systèmes de jeu. Symbaroum est le premier JDR et certainement le dernier que je maîtriserai. Les règles de fuite & poursuite… C’est la première chose qui m’est venu à l’esprit quand tu as parlé des règles dont on avait pas forcément besoin. C’est assez révélateur… Ça veut bien dire qu’elles ne sont pas bonne. 3 tests [agi
Pour le feu, c’est assez facile à gérer. Les armes enflammées sont magiques, donc elles peuvent bien faire tout ce qu’elles veulent. Mais j’aime bien décrire la magie qui “se répand” sur la cible. Pour faire clair. Je pense plutôt à toutes les situations où on essaie de faire tomber un ennemi dans un feu, où on traverse une maison en flammes, etc. Il faudrait simplement que les jeux aient deux règles, une pour le feu normal, qui en fait pourrait simplement faire des dommages normaux, et une pour les armes à base de feu, spécialement conçues pour enflammer la cible. Symbaroum est ton premier et seul jeu de rôle? Wow. Respect. :)
D'accord avec toi sur la magie et les armes enflammées. Et oui Symbaroum c'est le seul que je maîtrise :) J'ai eu l'occasion d'essayer de jouer à quelques autres cependant mais j'ai rarement accroché. Soit à cause du jeu en lui-même soit à cause du groupe ou du GM. Dans ceux que j'ai bien aimé il y a tout de même cops, degenesis et star wars. Et le pire du pire de tous les jeux, surprise... Pathfinder :D Trop porte/ monstre / trésor à mon gout. J'aime Symbaroum car l'univers est super profond et la mécanique est simple. Le côté Game of Throne, j'adore. Les intrigues politiques, les coups retors, les factions qui ne sont pas manichéennes, les divisions au sein d'une même faction, etc... L'aspect exploration de la forêt, c'est moins mon truc. Comme je l'ai dit sur discord, je trouve ça un peu répétitif. Je pense que je n'ai pas encore trouvé la bonne formule. Et aussi je n'ai pas ton expérience en tant que MJ donc j'apprends beaucoup avec tes vidéos, notamment les résumés de partie, donc je suis très content que tu aies repris du service :)
For combat my fix is: Missiles, Melee and Magic. Party tells me what they do/attack with and that determines the turn order. Players fire bows/thrown weapons then enemies do that. Players swing axes, then enemy does, magic casters go off last.
For a social fix: I ditched charisma, replaced it with a trust mechanic to be spent like currency and sometimes a dice roll. Convincing an NPC to do something might just require trust, if it's contested by an outside factor, dice roll. Trust is generated by taking quests, completing quests, and good roleplay. Rulings over rules for me.
I was thinking of doing something similar, at least trying it out. I think having shorter sequences and turns that move faster around the table is better. This said, I might try something akin to Daggerheart's initiativeless system as well..
I am also very much into the narrative elements of the hobby, but I feel like I go even further than most people in the space, since I don't like to look at the events in the game just through the lens of the capabilities of the characters. Which is why I kicked rolls to check if a character can do something are absent from my own system design. Games like Everway and Fiasco have been hugely influential for me, but I did not went diceless like those system, I had to invent the wheel anew on how I use dice in a different manner than most systems do.
I totally agree with you on that fire thing, the same goes also for plant life, especially wooden creatures which for some reason are treated very often like their are vulnerable to fire, but are just as difficult to be inflamed as and human would be. Guess most game designers never went on a LARP or just on a camping trip hand have no idea how fire works.
Regarding social rules are similar something people seem not to grasp how social interaction work. My approach is to handle them more like a haggling system, that you have to offer something to gain something. There is no way to simply get people to do what you want with just a roll. Give them an incentive, and then the NPC is interested in that or they are not. Again, that approach of looking at social interaction through the lens of the capability of the character is just horrible in my opinion.
Fiasco has picked my interest. I need to look into that.
But I must say, for me, dice are essential. There’s a gambler in me when it comes to RPGs. Never outside of them, though! :)
Hello Jericho,
I largely agree with you that rules are best when they resolve conflicts with too many values to micro-manage (like combat). I have a similar approach to resolving negotiation as you do: let the folks talk it out, and the scenario should largely be affected by the arguments presented by the PCs and the interests of the other party. Exceptions would be, of course, if PCs are trying to use deception, intimidation, or are really trying to get the other party to go outside their interests. A particularly compelling argument should succeed without requiring a die roll at all. Furthermore, in game terms, such an encounter could earn the party 1 xp as well. Even though a die was not used to resolve a challenge, a die roll *would* have been necessary but for good choices and strong role playing by the players, which is the sort of thing that the machine should be rewarding. Incidentally, one thing lacking in Symbaroum, in my opinion, and which I am thinking of house ruling in, is something akin to the inspiration die from 5e. I like having an immediate tangible reward that I can give to players who come up with creative solutions to problems that make use of and strengthen the lore/environment within which the encounter is situated. I don't think an inspiration die would be terribly disproportionate in Symbaroum, and would be worth 1 xp as the cost of rerolling any die: so an immediate reward of some value that is proportionate.
I'm not a fan of random encounters in the sense of something rolled by the GM at the table to flesh out on the fly, but I do appreciate a list of possible encounters and encounter seeds that I can mull over and customize while planning a session. I like the examples of dangers in the Davokar, but to be honest, I think I would have preferred something a bit more complex. I found the dangers to be a bit... thin. Maybe I am being too picky. I am grateful for the tables that were provided, and there are some good ideas in there, but the examples seem a bit underwhelming based on how prominently the Davokar features in the setting. I feel like the list could be fleshed out a bit, but I'm having a hard time coming up with new items to add to the list. Right now, I'm looking at compounding things to increase the costs of regular adventuring: bad weather to slow movement, spoil food, and impose penalties due to cold; creatures and plants that dispense poison and corruption, disease, and corrupted terrain to give them a sense of going through their resources quickly and needing to pay attention to how they are going to plan out periods of rest; overall giving the PCs a sense of their margins of error having been noticeably diminished. But even then, it feels a bit flat, like I'm missing something.
Chasing is also something that feels flat, as you point out. I am toying with making chase scenes a bit more interactive and requiring choices by players. Perhaps the existing contested die rolls could be supplemented with points that the PC/NPC involved in the chase would accumulate and could then spend to either add complications to the chase (obstacles, slip and fall, someone comes to the assistance of one party or another). Die rolls without decisions by the players seems like an unfinished mechanic. But chases should not drag out, as you say, and should be resolved quickly. Not easy to come up with the right mix of speed, complexity, and tension without burning out the GM!
I do like the abilities that have both in-combat as well as out of combat elements, and wish there could have been a bit more. I"m thinking of the tactical surveying ability of Tactician, and the benefits to motivating a group of people in Leader. This kind of approach provides some nice utility to powers that could otherwise be limited to combat situations.
All excellent points! I’d say I agree with all of them.
I too am looking for those sweet spot mechanics that come in to help out, that give us creative juice to bounce off of. Not that many games are designed that way, strangely.
If I reduce it to its most simple expression, I’d say we GMs need help for all areas where we need to wing it because the players are doing something random.
Setting generation, vista generation, stock NPCs generation, psychological states generation. A bit like oracles used in solo play, we need those tools also in group play.
And the more I think about it, the more cards come to mind as a nice easy way to make these prompts a simple hands on mechanic: pick a card. I’ve got to think about this more…
I do like the idea of cards as a way of introducing complications on the fly. Your idea of high-level descriptions of NPCs (and names) that can be introduced quickly is also very good. The card can provide seeds, and the players and the environment provide the rest of the dramatic elements.
I also sympathize with your frustration with initiative, but an alternative is difficult. The first thing that comes to mind is a round based process that starts with the person closest to the action (much like a surprise action) rather than the person with the highest initiative.
I pretty much buy anything you recommend, so yes, I would buy those cards 🤣
Hahahaha
If you want a good chase rules look into Blade Runner
Good call, I have it, just didn’t run it yet.
Hello Jericho,
Quelques points intéressants que tu as soulevé, dans le désordre:
Alors d’abord je tiens à préciser que je ne connais pas d’autres systèmes de jeu. Symbaroum est le premier JDR et certainement le dernier que je maîtriserai.
Les règles de fuite & poursuite… C’est la première chose qui m’est venu à l’esprit quand tu as parlé des règles dont on avait pas forcément besoin. C’est assez révélateur… Ça veut bien dire qu’elles ne sont pas bonne. 3 tests [agi
Pour le feu, c’est assez facile à gérer. Les armes enflammées sont magiques, donc elles peuvent bien faire tout ce qu’elles veulent.
Mais j’aime bien décrire la magie qui “se répand” sur la cible. Pour faire clair. Je pense plutôt à toutes les situations où on essaie de faire tomber un ennemi dans un feu, où on traverse une maison en flammes, etc.
Il faudrait simplement que les jeux aient deux règles, une pour le feu normal, qui en fait pourrait simplement faire des dommages normaux, et une pour les armes à base de feu, spécialement conçues pour enflammer la cible.
Symbaroum est ton premier et seul jeu de rôle? Wow. Respect. :)
D'accord avec toi sur la magie et les armes enflammées.
Et oui Symbaroum c'est le seul que je maîtrise :)
J'ai eu l'occasion d'essayer de jouer à quelques autres cependant mais j'ai rarement accroché. Soit à cause du jeu en lui-même soit à cause du groupe ou du GM.
Dans ceux que j'ai bien aimé il y a tout de même cops, degenesis et star wars.
Et le pire du pire de tous les jeux, surprise... Pathfinder :D Trop porte/ monstre / trésor à mon gout.
J'aime Symbaroum car l'univers est super profond et la mécanique est simple.
Le côté Game of Throne, j'adore. Les intrigues politiques, les coups retors, les factions qui ne sont pas manichéennes, les divisions au sein d'une même faction, etc...
L'aspect exploration de la forêt, c'est moins mon truc. Comme je l'ai dit sur discord, je trouve ça un peu répétitif. Je pense que je n'ai pas encore trouvé la bonne formule.
Et aussi je n'ai pas ton expérience en tant que MJ donc j'apprends beaucoup avec tes vidéos, notamment les résumés de partie, donc je suis très content que tu aies repris du service :)