The Excommunication of John Dehlin Pt. 6 - President Bryan King (1/14/2015) | Ep. 1269
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- February 2020 marks the 5 year anniversary of my excommunication from the Mormon church.
In a desire to protect myself against the possibility of slander or misinformation from the church or its apologists (as was experienced by former church members such as Fawn Brodie, Simon Southerton, and Kate Kelly during their disciplinary councils), I recorded all of the interviews I had with my bishops (James Stephenson and Brian Hunt) and stake presidents (Mark Jensen and Bryan King) leading up to my disciplinary council/excommunication.
As I have been opposed to Mormon Disciplinary Councils from my childhood on, it was always my intention to publish these interviews as a matter of public record - but I decided to hold off on publishing them for several years.
In light of the recent changes made to the Mormon church's disciplinary council process, and on the 5th anniversary of my excommunication, I am publishing them now.
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“The gift of a faith crisis is the rest of your life.”
John Dehlin
Excellent quote. 💜
13:17 leaving the time stamp because it's such a great quote
I love this. Thank you.
I know you probably don't have hard feelings towards Bryan King as a person but as an outsider that's listened to all your excommunication interviews, his moral and intellectual cowardice was striking in these dialogues.
Bryan King sounds like he’d be a dick in real life...
I feel like King was made stake pres at that time and given the job of excommunication because of his education (being a doctor, he probably had the most education of all of the people in these videos and they all knew John was working in his PhD) but also because he’d likely already made up his mind. Also, being a dr, he is likely never going to admit or discuss that he doesn’t know something. Drs are infamous for not having the time or patience to learn new techniques and methods, nor in many cases do they care to learn. Many patients aren’t aware of this and treat drs as experts when many times they understand less about the patient’s body than the patient (as a cancer survivor who had cancer for at least a year going misdiagnosed by multiple drs, I know this as FACT). Further, King was more than insulting in his last video where he differentiated himself being in healthcare and John being in mental healthcare. At that point, I shouted at the tv, “Mental healthcare IS healthcare, doofus!”
Also, something that really sticks out to me in each video (I’ve listened to the whole thing)…, Mormons are exceedingly polite even when disagreeing. This is also not the first time I’ve listened to an excommunication video where all the people in charge continue to say stuff. like ‘but we love you and we’re still friends and you’re really wonderful people with great children.’ I haven’t yet heard an excommunication related discussion where this phenomenon contains different verbiage. It’s completely unnecessary and insulting, as is the men in charge talking about all of their prayerful consideration. My husband and I have an inside joke now about “prayerful consideration.” That terminology is also used in evangelical and pentecostal churches (I grew up in a very high demand pentecostal type church) when discussing decision-making processes. It is total bunk imho because people can “say” they got their word from God (it is incredible to me how many people out there believe God actually speaks to them personally) and this behavior isn’t exclusive to LDS members. Further, you can see this same behavior and wording stated mostly by Kody on the show Sister Wives when he wants them to buy the total bs he’s selling.
King is an A-Hole.
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." --Obi-wan Kenobi (and John Dehlin, probably)
This is the same think I thought in the previous video XD
Having listened to this entire series, it is quite evident that John is the true example and follower of Jesus Christ. I hope investigators of the church listen to this series.
lol
@@calebbrown6739 what is funny? That he doesn’t believe in god but still a better follower of the principals that Jesus was purported to have taught? Or that you think Jesus Christ wouldn’t have been so empathetic and good natured towards other humans.
John, your excommunication was an act of courage and love for my benefit and for the the thousands of others whose lives you've helped to save.
THANK YOU for standing tall against the Pharisees !!!
If they believe they are the "one true church" it's very cruel and unchristlike to excommunicate people.
Ooooh! Yes!
“If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”
I can't imagine how safe your LGBTQ kid(s?) must have felt knowing you stand for them even before they came out. ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
When king said that the process was on the lord's time, i rolled my eyes so hard i thought I might go blind.
I think I saw your eyes roll past me while I was driving down the highway. 😉😂
😂😂😂
I have been out of the church for almost 30 years. All I had to rely on was what I was drawn to read and my best friend. I was raised in the church and my faith crisis took a big leap when I was 42. Back then there wasn’t any thing like your Mormon stories and other podcasts. I’m so enjoying them. I just listened to Amy Mcphie Allebest and my feelings paralleled hers. I am free and living a more spiritual and rich life now. Keep up the good work!🥰
This is crazier than the actual legal system
If I knew the Church operated in this way and traumatized people and families, I would have run away instead of just fading away.
I have the ultimate respect for you for standing for truth, for marginalized people, and for your convictions. I'm not even a Mormon. I grew up in a Baptist and Presbyterian home. I have been so impressed by your story, inspired, and convicted to stand up for truth and do the right thing also. You have been more Christ-like than any of the people who kicked you out. Keep doing what you're doing.
Your moral courage inspires me. I sincerely thank you for posting this 6 part series, you brave brave soul.
I especially appreciated your comment about being glad you were on the right side of the issue of LGBQT rights when it came to your own experience with your children. I had a bishop come by my house when my daughter was 14 to tell me she couldn't go to girls camp because he thought she was gay.. because of his own observations. I fought with him on the basis that being gay.. If she was.. didn't make her a predator. She did go to church every year after that. She subsequently came out as gay and now identifies as non-binary. I'm glad I stood my ground with him for my child's sake. If you believe God has unconditional love for us.. you can only believe that we must have unconditional love for our children no matter what their sexual identity or preferences are. And when Jesus said love everyone, don't you believe he meant it? I do.
.. meant to say.. did go to girls camp every year after that (as well as church)..
Amen 🙏🏿
Thank you John for standing on the right side of history in regards to these social issues and for the marginalized; history will indeed remember you kindly.
P.S. I listened to all the interviews and they were very informative.
As a devoted fan and consistent listener of your podcast, this rates as my favorite set of episodes you’ve presented. I’ve admired you from the beginning, but until hearing this presentation dealing with your excommunication, had no idea of what you went through. Thank you for all you’ve done and continue to do to spread truth and light. You are at the top of my list of most genuine, compassionate, and brilliant people I’ve ever known. You are a hero.
I finished listening and feel like I went through this with you and your family. Thank you for recording this John. I wept thinking of what you and Margie had to endure. It felt so cruel to me. I do like the way you ‘interviewed’ Brian King. It shows the church as a paranoid, fearful, lying organization who do not embrace truth and honesty. There are many dedicated, devoted members who would support the church no matter what, why not come clean? Embrace young people with questions, LBGTQ, same sex marriages, apologize to our beautiful people of color. Just LOVE people and be HONEST.
Now some amazing, intelligent, kind and loving families are ostracized and excommunicated, the very best of humanity. What a loss to the church.
If only they knew how Mormon Stories has helped so many of us. The influence you have had is immeasurable and all good, we are so grateful to you.
You are a reflection of Jesus Christ and the way he treated and accepted people. Thank you from the bottom of my heart ♥️
Thanks for sharing this John. It took me a week to get through it because I'd get so upset listening to Jensen and King, I'd have to turn it off and come back to it later. I don't know how you continued to stay so calm. Thanks for all you do!
Thank you for sharing such a personal, painful experience. I appreciate what you do for us, who have seen the light.
I am not a Mormon (or any label) but I watched all six parts. I found it fascinating. Thanks for sharing. I am glad you are doing well. The struggle for progress and change for the better is hard and always takes longer than we would like but the battles are worth waging.
I stumbled on to Mormon stories by accident and found it fastenating a couple of weeks ago. Thank you for sharing something so personal. Such an interesting and informative series. There is so much I have to say on so many different issues you brought up.
I'm glad you had so many people that would eventually show up for the actual excommunication -- I imagine so many folks go through this barbaric process with no support at all. Good on your dear friends and family. Thank you John for sharing this most private of meetings.
So when and where exactly IS the “time and place” the church is ok to discuss questions?
Good question! Actually, great question!
John, you have been a massive inspiration to me throughout the ongoing process of my personal faith crisis. A simple thank you isn’t enough. You are a hero to those of us who just want truth in our lives. Keep up the inspiring work you are doing 🙏
Thank you John, for sharing what must have been an incredibly painful process. I’m not Mormon but have some very sweet friends who are. I was raised Baptist and my husband Catholic. We have been fortunate to live overseas, including the Middle East and know many very sweet Muslims as well. What I have learned is that we all look to that higher power regardless of the name we put to it. All of our religions are more alike than they are different. Keep doing the good work!
Thank you Valorie!!! ❤️🙏
I've been watching Mormon stories for over a year And I really did enjoy this series I like the more intelligent thought-provoking Mormon stories
WOW, Thank you for sharing this touching, harsh, cruel, and crazy experience. I needed to see all 6 episodes in all their detail - it helped me think back on my excommunication.
Wow! You are so poised and we'll spoken. Thank you for following your heart abd blazing that trail for me!! 1 of 100!!
This is why you resign rather than go thru that.
Sadly the church still announces publicly and generally will go through the process without you so you’re basically X’d for life even if you decide to come back later.
Thank you for sharing the whole story! This is very important. Listening to "church management" address (or not address) these doctrinal, theological, and social issues is enlightening.
Very courageous to share all this. It’s the church’s loss, not yours. In this day and time of declining religious participation, churches need to wake the hell up. They only change when it impacts their bottom line.
I am so glad you had the tapes it gave me a much wider view of the whole thing.. thank you !!
Thank you, I don't know what I would have done without Mormon Stories. It was a lifeline. I was so angry while listening to Mr King. Such a lack of compassion and empathy from someone claiming to represent Jesus Christ. It's just very sad for everyone involved.
Thank you for sharing your story. Your podcast helped my family and I to transition much easier than it would’ve otherwise when we found out the truth about the church. Much respect and heartfelt appreciation.
I myself was baptized in the Cambridge 1st Ward and was a member from November 2018 to February 2019, and I left and returned to my Baptist Church.
I became so upset & aggravated by church members and especially missionaries always trying to know all of my personal information and my personal life. I felt as if I was being monitored. They even wanted to know what food I ate (seriously).
Why did you leave?
Mormon Stories Podcast
During the short time I was a member of the Cambridge 1st Ward (Massachusetts), Cambridge being my hometown, I began to feel incredible pressure being a member. In addition, I felt as though I was being stalked.
I felt as though other church members were being unbelievably nosey. I am a very private man.
Also, I was being pressured to visit the Singles Ward (just outside of Harvard Square) frequently, to get married and have children as soon as possible.
You're super brave and I admire you. What a rough go you've had and come out stellar!
I’m not Mormon but Because of your commitment to help others I have learned a lot. You have my respect and my support. I was brought up Catholic. I am non church going. I feel I am a good person. A person that prays to God. Sometimes as with many others I question his existence but I admit that HE is the first in times of Sorrow I go to.
This is unbelievable. As a never Mormon. I am just floored.
thanks for your authenticity and kindness John
It was well worth my time and I appreciate your efforts in sharing this so comprehensively.
I am an never-mo but being a cult follower had me question my mild Methodist faith…I am now an atheist. Thank you and many others Dr Dehlin. ❤️ I’m happier than ever. ✌🏼❤️ to all.
I can't find the words to express exactly what I'm thinking, but it's something like this. One thing to consider when joining a group, or even taking a job; it can be very telling of who they are by how the organization treats its members or employees who are on the outs.
Thank you for this Last video.
Very good.
This final video was very enlightening and informative. I wish you the best John and for continued
success of this program.
It definitely serves a need.
Thank you for sharing John
I watched the whole 8 hours and loved it. Thanks for sharing ❤️
Love that you decided to leave and make Mormon stories such a huge anchor for those of us needing that support to lean on, thank you. On that note, the church makes alot of sense when you view it as a corporation. It has all of the characteristics of a buisness, and you shouldn't be fooled by the changes on the front end. These changes are there to help keep their members who are gullible enough to view it as a religious organization that "reciecves revelation from on high". Great compilation of videos once again.
I agree. I only view it as a corporation now. It's the only way to make sense of it.
I’ve been on situations like that disciplinary council and I now know that who gives the right of 15 people to judge me for whatever reason or mistake I have made. If anyone of them ever tell me we are having a “disciplinary council” I’d send them a blow up doll on my behalf.
"If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
NEEEEEERD!!!!!! ;)
Thanks for sharing John!
At 8:30 King says "Did I miss anything?". My answer is yes; Your Humanity
At age 17 I was threatened with excommunication by a bishop I had just met a few minutes prior when I moved to a new ward. I am newly appalled with how barbaric these are! I stopped coming to church instead. I am sorry that you were treated this way! Seriously, WTF!
As a member reactivating in 2022, I've found your podcast and story incredibly helpful
I absolutely love you and Margie
I am proud of you John for standing your ground.
Thank for being the stable voice of sanity on the truth of the church. Although it's gut wrenching & emotionalyl traumatic to go through this experience..I admire y'all greatly to staying the course. May God greatly bless your faithfulness to His word and not "The church"
I loved this watched every second
Thanks John for your final remarks. We are on a budget as seniors, but we do support you. You have made a difference! Churches are on a budget and the budget is very low. Corporation pare of the church is thriving!
Worth every minute of my time❤amazing. You were a big part of this chane!
Interesting that he says "you can Google " the disciplinary council process...Why would he fall back on the internet?
Thank you for sharing. This Never-Mo watched all six episodes of this!
My heart goes out to you! Are you at peace with it all now John?
Listened to the whole series..
You are a pioneer and trailblazer
I am not mormon but a Christian and love listening to your podcasts
Such a pity so many people are put off faith after the crisis
Xx
Same
Thank you John.
Also, this whole thing truly has nothing to do with love or concern for John. It seems to all be about the image of the church and his own image int he process of trying to "protect the image of the church". Plus, with it being public, he may be worried about any upper discipline (from higher authorities within the church).
Dr. John You are a Wonderful Soul and You Live Your Faith so Well!❤🙏 What You have gone through is Horrendous... My take away is, we can't take on "The Brand".... The Brand is more important than Our Individual Truth... Keep up Your Work. We Love You! Namaste ❤🙏❤
I resigned about 3 years ago. John Dehlin has done nothing wrong. But if I hadn't resigned already I would because of men like Bryan King. I listened to the whole series and wish I could resign again. Dr Dehlin you are a man I truly admire.
These interviews have been extremely difficult to hear, but important to see the difficulties of being a mid-level manager caught between your own personal sense of ethics and what you think The Organization demands that you do. It's fascinating: at this point in the trial process, Pres King's prayers don't ask for the Lord's presence or guidance or help in making the right decision. The prayers are that John's family will submit to the President's prepared rant without making too much of a fuss.
In each of the interviews, the Leader argues that he knows John's Real Beliefs better than John does. It's fascinating that he considers doubt about Church doctrines to be dangerous and contagious. Misgivings are to be suppressed, not expressed. Questions can only be brought to church leaders -- not for answers, but for judgement regarding why the member's faith is so weak that it's impacted by physical or historical evidence.
We are to sympathize with Pres King, who suffers from a guilty conscience and who has to fight against an inner Spirit telling him, "Don't do it. This is a mistake. There's a better approach. This isn't how Christ's Church works." As you point out, God's Kingdom on Earth has been severely damaged over the past decades -- ultimately due to the weakness of Pres King and the other Inquisitors who wrongly excommunicated so many faithful members.
As you say at the end of this interview, your sorrow and tremendous suffering has motivated tiny changes in Church policy. That's nice, but what's needed is a fundamental change in Church Culture. Leaders at all levels need the humility to fast and pray to carry out the Lord's will, not to act on their own personal biases (as portrayed in these interviews.)
It's like Samuel the Lamanite standing on the walls of Zarahemla calling the True Church to repent and humble themselves before the Lord. Samuel the Lamanite wasn't an apostate, though the members of the Church shot arrows at him. Imagine how Prophet and President Nephi felt when Christ asked him about the event. (3 Nephi 23:9)
The side of justice and the side of mercy? Its like a legal defense. I can't believe these people think they have the right to be an intermediary between an individual and God.
The whole church organization is set up like that, so gross.
My family’s gay friends were far better to us than any LDS members ever were. One of mine also came out as gay as a teenager and they never had to endure one minute of rejection from either family, School, or church (because we were long gone before then.) In my experience gays are a compassionate, creative group of people and I encourage you to enjoy your gay children and do what you can to reach out to trans people, both youth and adults. They are at an even greater risk not just from suicide but from harassment, bullying, and death by homicide. My blessings to you.
Oh John my heart is heavy you took on a giant in the Most respectful way and they are far too heavy for you they are unshakeable and immovable I’m so sorry John you are loved by thousands and always will be enjoy your life and find your peace, just because the church is not true it doesn’t mean that God doesn’t exist I hope you rediscover him soon because if you can there will be your peace.
I love how he references Wikipedia when so many church leaders put down Wikipedia in reference to Joseph Smith and his list of wives.
Thanks!
They always find ways to beat around the bushes, I’ve been a Jack Mormon for 22 years don’t miss it at all😊happier without being in Church
How cruel and barbaric , I’m a NM and I have learned so much from Mormon stories , about the perils of organised religion , about friendship , acceptance and intentional parenting and although I am not religious I can understand how difficult the deconstruction process must be . John was so sincere about his faith and had devoted so much of his life to the church that it seems particularly cruel to have him excommunicated. I am delighted that life has only improved for the Dehlin family.
You did what millions refused. God is pleased
Thank you for these recordings. I think they are very helpful in understanding both views ( yours and the church's) of the issues. A couple of comments. It seems the church has an unmovable structure and single methodology for addressing these issues (within the structure of priesthood authority and office). If the church could broaden methods / avenues for discussion within the authorized structure, perhaps these forums outside the structure would be not as necessary or threatening. A small (humorous) point. When some of the leaders tried to get you to consider change (move where your heart is ), your rejoinder was "so you want me to silence my concerns?", or "so you want me to silence my concerns and drop the web site". This reminds me of when I had to pick my wife up from this hospital and I asked my teenage son to clean the house for her. "You mean you want me to sweep? (Well, sweep and do the counters and dishes.) "So you want me to sweep and do the counters and dishes, is that what you mean by clean?" (Just use your heart and clean the house for mom so she feels good when I bring her back). "So you want me to sweep and do the counters and the dishes? Is that what you said??). Just humor.
What I hoped for is that if my son simply responded out of love for his mother, he would want to do his best for her, and I'm sure that "best" would cover any specifics I could have mentioned and probably more. The similarity with the John Dehlin interview is one of dialog give and take, nothing more.
I recognize that the comments posted will be highly biased based on ones belief system. I've listened to the meetings and found both bishops and stake presidents to be as fair and impartial as they can. I am an active member of the LDS faith. I see why there is a concern. It seems that almost all of John's energy is spent being critical of church history and practices. I also wonder why he wants to stay affiliated. There are so many things that bother him about the faith. I dont disagree with him from the standpoint of having an opinion and pushing for things he feels can be addressed. But, doing it in a public forum causes greater problems and it is distracting to the vast majority of church members who are able to deal with his concerns in a more positive way. If he spent the time he's spent criticizing the church on gaining a stronger knowledge of the gospel plan he would be happier and more productive. Active members of the faith arr often aware if the issues he's addressing and they know it would be nice to have perfect answers. Im not sure the church could even give John what he claims he wants. Even if it could, I bet hebwould move on to something new that bothers him. Building a strong and faithful testimony of the Savior and his gospel, doesnt seem too important to him.
I wish him well on his journey but I feel he's really missed what is most important in life.
I see what he is concerned about yet im not bothered mych about it. Like his stake president, I see all the good that comes by living the gospel. This allows me to not worry about things that dont matter mych in the big picture.
I’m LDS, watched all 8 hours. First, I understood why the church felt they needed to make the decision they did. Simply put, “Their club, their rules.” It’s probably just not realistic to believe you can disagree with an organization in such a public manner, while also having a profound influence on others views of that organization, that doesn’t align with what that organization is ultimately trying to accomplish with its membership & still remain a member of that same organization.
I also think it comes across as a little disingenuous to have truly believed you could “have the best of both worlds” & not take at least some personal responsibility for what ended up transpiring. Although I can understand why it would be difficult to let go & fully see this while in the midst of it all too.
I do empathize and can understand it’s likely very traumatic to leave an organization that shaped “who you are” to some degree and was also such a significant part of your experience for much of your life, however, in my heart I believe you understood the risks of this outcome when you began to speak out in such a public manner the way you did.
All of that said, what you did and continue to do for those in an LDS faith crisis is amazing and nothing less than heroic. You’ve provided a soft place to fall for these individuals. A true support group and outlet where these individuals feel understood, and can ultimately receive the healing they need to move forward in a new direction.
People are more valuable than any religious organization. You seem to genuinely care about people, ALL people regardless of what they choose to believe in or what religion they might be most compatible with. I personally applaud you for this.
Bottom line, I guess what I felt after watching this 8 hr podcast was; what you’re doing is extremely admirable, however, it’s probably just not appropriate &/or fully honest to profess to be “a member” of the LDS religion while also publicly contradicting what it stands for, at least at this point in time.
Hoping for progress as well. Appreciate the influence you’ve had for positive change already. I know it came at a great price & my heart goes out to you & your beautiful family because of this personal sacrifice.
Thank you for unconditionally loving and supporting people in their time of need! You truly are a Christlike example to me and many others I’m sure.
Thank you Tamara. ❤️
I grew up lds and am still religious but to me the Mormon leaders kinda play house in a way, they only have authority if you give them that, they consistently ignore the Bible and their own scripture and just try and feel important and special, I get into interesting dialogues with people serious about god, Mormons are trained to reply in the same ways and indoctrinated and it's creepy.
I’d be nauseated if I ever ran into the guy again.
Well done
I couldn’t believe he referred you to Wikipedia 🤯
Do you still wear your garments?
Church should never be a club. Jesus would have pulled you closer…not push out. They must face Jesus….
Hurt my heart when he said BYU has changed their honor code to allow members of the lgbtq community to express themselves. If only it had lasted longer...... :(
John Dehlin: Who knew the church would be so amenable to change?
The church: Oh shit, John Dehlin just liked something that we did. Time to course-correct and go in the exact opposite direction.
The church is an abusive girlfriend, and that's why I'm gay.
OMG! Under the Lords time? Wow!
Let us raise a cup of coffee better known as 'Devil Juice' to the Dehlins'
Amazing that they speak for god, but don't feel comfortable confirming THEIR OWN WORDS.
Fascinating the exposure of what the ecclesiastical court trial at this level is about. Bishop's trial/interrogation about the person. Stake president trial/interrogation about supporting church dogmas and policies. This is another area where the church has kept its members naive.
You said you had "friends" family testify in your behalf at this trial. I bet they said you were ahold person etc. What you needed was witnesses who would say they didn't see anything incongruous with maintaining membership and not believing that the Church is the one and only true church etc.
Regardless, they actually did you a favor by releasing you from the tethers of membership and secret oaths.
Of course they changed the date
❤❤❤
I do not care what they change. The church is a liar and not worthy of me! You go John and thank you, also to Jeremy Runnels cesletter.com
This is where I struggle. Yes, I agree with John that they are doing a "good job" by making changes concerning LGBTQ policies -- though they haven't changed nearly enough, IMO. But the other changes I see, like grudgingly admitting the BoM and BoA are not translations without admitting they are completely fraudulent, just make me more certain that the church has been lying about everything from the get-go. That being the case, what does the church really represent? I don't think there is anything left.
I'm sorry you had to go through all this but you moved the needle. That's no mean feat when desling with any sort of large entrenched organization. I tell people that principals only really matter when hard decisions have to be made. Sometimes it sucks. Thank you for demonstrating what living by one's principals looks like.
Sorry about making 5+ comments in a roll instead of making one long comment but I was moved to make the comments at different times during the presentation. Again I am sorry lol -- but not sorry enough to delete them lol again. Maybe I'll be moved to delete them later.
I am 4 min in and my impression of his response to John’s question about how does the disciplinary committee work is him being a royal smart a$$… he literally told his church member under his care, as stake president (and a surgeon), that the information on how it works can be googled and is on wikipedia. That was an arrogant jab especially given the context.
Sad they were forced to change. They won’t be having relations with multiple wives in the next world either.
Im terribly sorry to write this but after listen through these recordings I must say Im terrible choked by this. No I have never been an ”active” religous person (swedes are selldom that) but like many socity we are influensed by the tales of Jesus. Its a pretty good way to meet the world.
Saying that, its horrible that ignorens and stuck up men actully think that their Belives is better then any other membrer!!!
If you had comited Murder or any other crime in the name of any God I would get it, but this!!!
If there is a heaven, they sure Will have a gard time when they go. Well they Will absolutly have many ”good old boys to fratinaise with I guess)
He's so clearly nervous here!
No opening prayer? Couldn't he have just sent the letter by mail or call? More exertion of intimidation and their perceived power and control over you/others. Kangaroo court 😆