Is The Copy Really Better? |Yamaha XS650 VS Triumph T140 Bonneville
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- Опубликовано: 18 дек 2024
- Super cool to have these bikes together in my collection and be able to ride them back to back and compare them against each other. Which bike would you chose and why?
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I grew up in a Yamaha, BMW, Triumph,BSA dealership. When I left my XS650E moved with me to Dallas then Hawaii. It was my cheaper reliable British feel alike bike. Norton cafe production racer was the next. So Much Fun bikes.
Forget historical significance; my memory is that in the late 60s and early to mid 70s, virtually no Japanese bikes handled or stopped well but they were trouble free and didn't leak oil! For the average rider who wasn't a mechanic, they were a cheaper and more user friendly option.
Your memory is obviously failing you! They handled very well, and their brakes were much, MUCH better than the poor British brakes!
He's right. The Japanese built bigger faster multicylinder bikes but their handling often wasn't great. They thrashed the British bikes on price, reliability, choice and speed, while Triumph etc struggled with a lack of R&D, 60s models and worker strikes.
When I was a kid and learning to ride, I loved the Triumph 650 Bonneville. By the time I reached a point where I had half a chance of purchasing the Triumph, they weren't available anymore. The closest I could fine was the Yamaha XS650. I saved up and paid cash for a new 1978 XS650 and it was a great bike! I ran like a top and I never had any issues with it. In hindsight, that's something I doubt I would have been able to say about the Triumph
I had a pre unit Triumph Tiger 100 (500cc). Supposedly the smoothest engine. IT WAS HORRIBLE. Vibration so bad it literally shook my watch to pieces. All my life I have been sensitive to vibration. I believe that heap of junk caused permanent damage to my hands.
@@Dave5843-d9m there was obviously something wrong with your particular bike ! 😮 was probably second hand ?
I owned a 1971’ triumph 500 speed twin and it was good / excellent in most ways! But the tooling was near worn out in the old English factories! And in hind sight it’s problem was bad casting or machining of the head and or the valve rocker housing which destroyed the left hand exhaust valve top and valve guide 😢
Otherwise smooth and handled so good 😊
I grew up riding Triumphs and for a number of years the only vehicle I owned was a Triumph. I looked after them and I never had any trouble with them. The Yamaha 650 was a pretty good machine, but it was FAR from the cause of the collapse of the British Bike industry. THAT crown goes to the management of the BSA/Triumph conglomerate, who held up the release of the 750 Trident for between two and three years, while a BSA version (The Rocket 3) was created. Not only that, but in the EARLY 1960's, Edward Turner had created an OHC 350 twin that had a top speed of 120mph, but the arrogance of the management said that it wasn't necessary and they left the production at a few prototypes. All the things that people said the Japanese were doing better; horizontally split cases, disc brakes, OHC, etc, COULD have been done, but were vetoed by bean counters who didn't even LIKE motorcycles, let alone want to make them! Narrow-minded, unimaginative twats with no business being IN business, most of them and they got their comeuppance eventually, as the whole of British manufacturing went down the toilet as they followed the example for these idiots who didn't realise that playing it safe is the pathway to mediocrity, followed by extinction. The Japanese were innovative and daring and the British weren't. The strikes in the British book industry were more about the workers being fed up with management ineptitude than about more pay. They took pride in their work and resented the smells of the braindead idiots who were running the companies into the ground.
@@Intrepid175a and you are a hundred years old 😂
@@robertwoodroffe123 - not quite, but I'm working on it! ;-)
The video makes reference to the Yamaha being a German design without further explanation. It is a Horex design that was sold to Japan and was first made by a company named Hosk. Hosk went bust and the tooling passed to Showa who decided to concentrate on manufacturing suspension units and sold the tooling on to Yamaha. This is why the XS1 was initially the only 4-stroke in the Yamaha range whose largest capacity 2-stroke model prior to the XS1 was a 350.
And the early 2-stoke Yamahas were inspired by the german company "Adler"
The cylinder head on the XS comes straight from Toyota T2000 sports car. The base T2000 engine was from a Toyota sedan that Yamaha modified with a new-design OHC head, and a few other mods. Interestingly, the combustion chambers of the aluminum head feature cast-in steel skulls into which the valve seats are ground. One of my favorite features are the magnetic drain plugs which have small slots ground into the first few threads which act as thread cleaners/chasers when re-installing. I raced one for two years at the pro level in AMA dirt track and never suffered an engine failure, unlike the fast Triumphs that broke cranks with regularity.
@@jiyushugi1085 There is a lot of debate on XS650 forums about the story you have given. Most tend to disbelieve it because the 650 engine in internal detail is totally unlike any previous Yamaha motorcycle engine, and not just in being a 4-stroke rather than a 2-stroke. The Horex origin I first read many years ago and is the one credited by most people.
@@geoffreypiltz271 Actually, after racing the XS I went on to learn Japanese and spent many years working for Yamaha in Japan - indirectly via their ad agency (Dentsu) and translating companies - as a translator, interpreter, copywriter and riding model. During that period I made numerous trips to the factory for meetings, etc. Recently I've done a lot of translating work for Yamaha's 'Communication Plaza'' at the factory, where the company's significant machines are restored to running condition and displayed. If you ever get a chance to visit Japan it's well worth a visit, as is Honda's 'Collection Hall' in Motegi.
Regarding the steel skulls, I believe one of the first uses was on Rudge motorcycles back in the thirties/forties.
@@geoffreypiltz271 After racing the XS I spent many years working for Yamaha in Japan (via Dentsu, their ad agency) as a translator, interpreter, copywriter and riding model. Went to the factory a number of times for meetings, etc., and modeled many of their machines at Fukuroi, Yamaha's test track. I heard the cylinder head story many years ago when I was over there. Never heard about the Horex, but it wold be interesting see how much it had in common with the XS.
I've recently been doing a lot of translating work for Yamaha's "Communication Plaza', their museum on the factory grounds at Hamamatsu. There, they're restoring many of the company's most important machines to running condition and putting them on display. Worth a visit for any Yamaha fans. Honda's 'Collection Hall' at Motegi is worth a trip to Japan in itself, it's absolutely mind-blowing. Cheers.
When I saw the title of your video...I thought I would not like your conclusions. But, I gave it a look, all way through to the end. Then I was happy with your summation. You have discovered and experienced the same things I experienced half a century ago. I was a dealership mechanic then, wrenched on both brands, and owned/rode both brands. My favorite bike was my 1968 Bonneville. As the 70's continued, we saw an upswell of great improvements in performance and reliability, but I sometimes think those came at the sacrifice of the fun we had on machines such as these examples. I'm glad that someone from your generation can understand the bikes from my generation. Your comparison of the two bikes, point by point agrees exactly with my long held opinions. If I were put on the spot to choose which of the two I like most, I don't know how I could choose. Perhaps I would just point out...if your favorite ice cream flavor is vanilla, there is no harm in enjoying chocolate or strawberry also. I liked this so much, I subscribed. Looking forward to more content. Thank you
If Yamaha still made this bike I would have bought another one!
I would buy a brand new XS650 today if it was the same as the original ones, that is carbureted with no computers or electronics. And NOT flat black.
@@geraldscott4302 Three years not one problem with that machine. And we clocked up just over 30,000 miles. Most of the servicing I did as it was so simple to work on. My only regret was selling her 🤦🏻♂️…
It would struggle to get through the emission regulations without major mods. Then it wouldn’t be the same bike.
@@martinowl sadly you’re right, but what an enjoyable ride…
@@martinowl That is the problem. The emissions regulations, not the bikes. It should still be legal to make, sell and ride them. I no longer own an XS650, but I do have 4 vintage carbureted bikes that I ride on a regular basis. I will never give them up, because there is no longer anything available to replace them with.
What ruined the British Motor ndustry was a very complex mix of poor management (by mega corporations with no interest in motorcycles, ie, Manganese Bronze) government forced manufacturing mergers as a result of wartime debt and austerity and extremely poor British labour relations The Japanese manufacturers in many ways stepped into a vacuum. The disinterested British management bean counters killed off most of the innovative ideas from the industry leaving them with having to modernise pre WW II technologies which were already obscolecent. The Japanese were dealing with an entirely different management culture and philosophy and were more than able to step into the market vacancy. Unfortunately history ain't so simple.
And the Japanese built better and cheaper bikes
Don’t forget the disenfranchised British workforce too. There was never an incentive for British workers to go above and beyond.
After we bombed the hell out of Japan, we rebuilt it and gave them new CNC equipment. Harley and Triumph were stuck with antiquated machinery until AMF saved HD when they brought in CNC equipment for the EVO. The Triumph is a motorcycle like HD, the Yamaha is a Jap-bike
…….and oil leaks.
Coincidentally, English money managers discovered the 'benefits' of offshore banking; ie, trusts, and hoovered up all the loose cash and sent it to hide in The City of London's operations in the Caymans, Jersey Isle; and, It appears there was no cash to upgrade machine tools or hire and apprentice new workers. A similar thing happened with the English bicycling industry. Money wins again, the people lost.
I worked in the UK bike industry in the mid seventies. I have ridden both of these bikes. The biggest plus for the Yamaha, was reliability. The Triumph with its ancient designed engine, was unreliable, leaked oil, parts would break or simply fall off, due to the engine vibration. The Yamaha was virtually bulletproof.
Transfer junk triumph motorbikes junk😢😢 Pollo loco's junk oil oil liquors junk triumph oil liquors joke bike 🚳🚳🚳 a joke joke
I’ve had both bikes....and in particular had Bonnies for years. In my opinion, the T140 is a thoroughbred...smooth control at lower rpms, pull like a freight train over 5k rpm and handles elegantly. And it’s gorgeous and has tons of character. This Yamaha (and I love vintage Yamahas...maybe my best bike ever was a MX400C) is more like an appliance. It does what it does reliably, but no excitement.
Great video.
In 1977 I was wanting to buy a Triumph 750, but the company was on the verge of collapse.
So…. bought a new XS 650.
Loved it.
However…nearly 40 years later I ride a Triumph T120 and Speedmaster.
Love them as well.
Modern triumph classics are stupidly good
In 1978 I was going to buy an XS650, walked into the dealers and they had T140's at only £50 dearer than the Yam (£1050). Bought a T140V on the spot and have never regretted it. (I had previously owned an XS2.)
Bought the XS new for $ 1'600 and still enjoy it today.
I bought a 77 XS650D new in 77 put 9K on it riding around New England I remember it got great MPG,handled fine, and at higher speeds would shake you eyeballs out of your head ( same with the bonneville my friend had). Mine was such a good copy of a Brit bike the main wiring harness shorted out.
Yes they do shake. I had a 72. It had a compression release trigger starter rather than a button. Now I have a W650.
I currently own a XS650 and I personally think the Bonneville I owned for seven years was more nimble and had better low down torque, however when it comes to reliability I trust the XS650 to get me home , both machines sound great but the Triumph just pips the Yam , I find both bike’s equally comfortable. The old Triumph has more style imo , the Yam is far more easy to use on a day to day basis plus the twin disc front brake set up is far better than the Bonnie, One final thought is with the Triumph I had ,I found I had to change the push rod tube seals every two years or so because oil starts seeping out inevitably . Interestingly the claimed BHP for the XS is greater than the Royal Enfield interceptor of today.
Did 40,000 miles on my T140V with no problems. Never had more than a slight misting from the pushrod tubes. I think this may have been due to fitting a Triumph Trident oil cooler which kept the oil temperature down and made a big difference in hot weather or when pushing it hard.
That's because of all the emmissions handicaps installed on the RE.
Replacing the exhaust with after market headers, mufflers and a less restricted air filter and inlet cover has transformed my 650 Conti.
Yamahas were shipped assembled by people who knew what to do. Triumph shipped to be assembled at the dealer. Bad idea, gave Triumph a bad reputation. Driven by Post War economic necessity. To bad UK didn't have General MacArthur building them into an economic giant like the Japanese had. Killed Triumph and Bought Westinghouse Electric. Just sayin. Yamaha didn't kill Triumph, the war did.
The 1975 XS650 was my first bike. Bought it new when I was 18. Loved it. Cost $1700, if I would have waited toward the end of the year they went down to $1400, Yours looks in great shape. I later got a 1982 920 Virago, also a great bike. Stopped riding for many years. Now back into it at 67 yrs old with a 350 Royal Enfield Meteor. Loving it!
I have a 2011 W800 Kawasaki with rear drum brake which wasn't available in the USA and to me it's the ultimate development of the the British parallel twin as the Kawasaki engineers concentrated on low and mid range torque which is a hallmark of the Brit Twin. Maximum torque is at 2500 RPM, which is even lower than a Harley Davidson, and they even gave it a bevel gear driven OHC which Ducati stopped using because they are so expensive to manufacture, but somehow Kawasaki kept the price to an acceptable level. The later rear disc brake model is available in the USA but has been saddled with EU regulations for emissions and ABS brakes but is still a nice looking bike if you want a Brit Twin but don't want the reliability hassles that go with keeping one on the road.
I've got a 77 XS650 stripped down to the frame, engine sitting on my workbench. Can't wait to get it restored and back on the road!
Hardtail chopper!!! Go on, buddy.... 👌
Good review. Old guy here. Was riding since before these were new. Had the right side shift Bonnie and it was a hoot on country roads, around town, and curvy highways. The vibration will put you to sleep on the freeway. The XS is "choppier" on rough roads and not quite the same. Down on power. Yeah you can hot rod an XS to make it pull harder, but the Bonnie just loves to run up through the gears. Have ridden Beezers and Nortons too, but the Bonnie is the best all around. Right side shift is the correct way to go.
I replaced the Bonnie with an RD400D with many upgrades and rode that for years as a commuter. Quick and smooth. R compound tires and bronze swing arm bushings made the biggest difference.
old guy here too. After a lifetime of bikes im back on a 72 bonneville, found in Spain, repatriated and rebuilt. 5000 reliable and fun miles since. keep safe.
Had a 81 650 special, loved that freakin' bike. it was on the quiet side, and after encountering way to many deer, took off the exhaust and slapped on jc Whitney drag pipes ($100) And tapered tip Harley mufflers with the baffle disc punched out (swap meet $10 ) sounded like a healthy 750 bonny. And yes, electric starter went south. Love that kicker, 2 kicks, start every time.plus,the exhaust change and carb rejet "woke it up".
Enjoyed your video. Had bought a 1978 Bonny in 1980. After having it a short time I had wished I bought the brand new Yamaha 650 new for less money at the time the salesman tried to get me to buy. Going to anger a few out there but here I go. Got to admit I loved riding my 1978 Bonny 750, it had been punch out 0.030" when I got it due to bad pistons from the factory I was told by the salesman, should have been a clue to what was in store for me. Really did love riding it, just got tired of always working on it, it would loosen bolts up all the time. If I rode that bike in the week, I also worked on it that week. So after a year I sold it, lots of repairs in my garage and on the side of the road, ha, ha. I was a mechanic at the time also, so I did get tired of working on it when I was off work. So since then I have owned several different brands of bikes. I am on my 3rd Triumph, had a 2005 865cc Speedmaster, great bike, very dependable, put 75K miles on it. Then I had a 2011 Victory Cross Road, again a great bike, put 64K miles on it. Now in 2019 sold the Victory and went back to the Triumphs, got a 2019 Triumph Speedtwin, very good bike overall, got roughly 28K miles on it now. So power wise the Speedtwin is great, have done some work to it personally, but character wise the old 1978 Bonny was much more fun to ride, but also much more to deal with on the maintenance side of things. Yes I would by another new Triumph if money came my way. Thanks for the good video!
It wasn't bad pistons, but simply bad rings which the factory would change out as a recall for the regular rings this was on all models, and that was all that needed doing, I replaced enough! Once the new rings were fitted and with a lite hone the Bikes were fine. Many got rebores they didn't need.
The reason for the Triumph didn’t jump when you was revving it was the fact that the centrestand mountings was worn out from starting the bike while on the centrestand. Usually there should be about 10 cm distance from bottom of rear wheel to the ground!
Both stands on the Triumph are completely clapped out
The Bonnie every day of the week, Great video and honest! Thank you!
Glad to see a young fella enjoying some nostalgia. I remember coming of a 125cc and taking a T120 out for a ride, it blew me away at the time the amount of pull it had in top gear, and even then, it was an old bike. Mate had a Norton 850 Commando, but i couldnt even kick it over, it was a great ride though.
My brother got a new 1976 Yamaha 650. (red). I guess he liked it. He was always working on it. Maybe because it had engine problems or maybe becasue my brother was hard on it and abused it. He took me on a 150 mile ride one time, my first time on a real motor cycle.
Great review! In 1975, both of my roommates bought new XS650's so I'm very familiar with these bikes!
I owned a 76 t140 . I rode it all over the US. Many times I had to fix it beside the road
But I would get another in a heartbeat.
That Yamaha was one of the best bikes I've ever owned. Triumph may have the history, but nostalgia doesn't trump price and performance. Hey! I say the same thing about Harley Davidson!
The old Triumphs are beloved classics. But the Yamaha was more dependable.
I bought seven 650's back in the early nineties, I was on recruiter duty away from home and was bored, got a package deal for the Yamaha's and put them all on the road and sold them to fellow recruiters. I had a 650 Triumph in the mid seventies, rode it cross country several times along with a few Harley's, always was buying non-running bikes and selling them. I bought a 78 Triumph a few years ago, been riding it pretty regular and just picked up three more "barn find" that I'm restoring to road use because I've got time on my hands, retired now. I still love my Harley's but a Triumph is just such a nice bike to enjoy the roads on and substantially cheaper all around. I'd enjoy restoring some old Yamaha's just as much if I ran across a good deal. Nothing better than enjoying the twisties on an old bike!
buddy had the yamaha XJ750 midnight special back in what 76? . . very nice bike for it's time duel disks up front real good suspension, for the day, electronic ignition.. decent power.. fun bike, handled OK.. brother low sided it at like 65 mph and it didn't even stop running, picked it up and off he went . .
My first street bike was a 1976 XS650.... had just under 1,000 miles on it when I got it and had just under 93,000 on it when I sold it... Other than tires, oil changes (KEY), and fuel, it never cost me anything... I also had a 1979 XS650 Special, and a 1975 bobber before getting into Harleys in the mid 80s.... Yamaha has made some very good products... I also owned a 2000 Yamaha Roadstar Limited that was a great bike...
Really comprehensive and detailed review. Thank you.
Bought a XS 650 when I got back from Vietnam during my last year in the Army. Rode it to college in 1974 and got a VW!!! Great bike.
I rode both but it was the Triumph that grabbed me, it could be ridden much harder abd ran the legs off the Yamaha. I also raced Yamaha and Honda 2 stroke dirt bikes, when I was a teenager and had a lot of fun.
No coppy, simply superior contemporary skilled engineering.
Well said. What you have is two different bikes with two different focuses. I’ve been riding 55+ years and had an enormous variety of years makes and models. Everything from competitive motocross and enduro, long distance trail riding, Commuting and touring. It really comes down to what the rider is willing to put in for the experience. If you’re looking for handling, class and style that you’re willing to spend some time with maintenance and upkeep. Then the answer is Bonnie‘s and Nortons every time. English bikes that are properly sealed and maintained are actually awfully reliable, but you have to be willing to spend the time. If you’re looking for a reliable toaster to commute with that needs very little attention, than the Japanese bikes fit right in. And yes I’ve had both even at the same time. Just my old guy opinion.😊
Yamaha is ok but engine vibration is annoying, but was the best available at the time, it is what it is
I have a 77 Bonnie and have had a 650 special which was the later version of the XS from 1981. Same motor but the special was more on the cruiser side that the XS. The 650 was a pig to ride around corners compared to the Bonnie. The Bonnie has more servicing required though. It has 3 separate places to change the oil. The engine, the primary and the gearbox. The filter for the Bonnie is under the engine behind a plate you have to remove, that has 4 bolts. The Bonnie shakes more as it is a 360 degree engine so bolts need checked but has more torque and faster plus handles at high speed. The XS used to get the speed wobbles at 140kmh but that might have just been my bike. The bearings in the crankshaft were prohibitively expensive and so a rebuild for an XS is going to cost more that the Bonnie. I prefer the Bonnie. It goes and looks better and is as reliable as the XS especially when you convert it to electronic ignition and put a solid state rectifier in it. Just to add, you can still buy brand new parts for a Triumph.
Poor investment in the factory finishing caused a few oversights at Meriden, for one they failed to countersink the threads in the female half of the crank casings, that was a big reason why the Bonnies were oil leaky, if you ever have reason to split the cases ie changing crank bearings its a five minute job to quickly resolve this issue, great machines Sir, great upload.
Braking & suspension is better on the Bonneville? You're joking, right? I've owned both bikes, and the Lockheed front brake was wooden and absolute garbage on the Triumph. The XS650 engine is absolutely bulletproof. You'll have to rebuild that Triumph engine after 20k miles & the cases split vertically. And no electric start.
I have a '79 XS-650 - Ground-up restomod, it looks original, but has some improvements (Ported heads, Electronic ignition, PMA Alternator, LED Lights, Upgraded suspension, and new wiring, but I need new carbs for it). What a GREAT BIKE! I LOVE IT! And it WILL pass 100 mph!
The XS was SO Popular that Yamaha actually had to SHUT DOWN production so they could sell OTHER BIKES!
I also now own an XJ1100, and my Daily Rider is a '14 BOLT.
I've never ridden a Triumph, so I can't give an HONEST comparison - but I DO LOVE my XS !
Great review mate. Fan of both, ran a xs2 and 72 Bonnie loved them both. Agree re xs electric start...woeful.
Blackdog had that yellow xs650 & a Bonnie in the corner of the bar.
I'll look next time I there if new owners got them with the pub probably not.Only been their once since new owners brought it & didn't stick my head round corner of bar where bikes use to be.I'd say old owners family probably kept them I would of.Love that look of the yellow xs650.
I had a 1980 XS650, it was a great bike all around. I'd also ridden Triumph Bonnies & Daytonas belonging to friends, and have to agree that they were a bit more confidence inspiring ride-wise, but all things considered I'd rather have another XS, tbh.
I have a 73 TX650. The end of video of you rev-ing the XS is so familiar. It just wants to leap off the center stand. Wish I had a Triumph. Great bike comparison.
I grew up with both of these bikes. My dad always seemed to have a Triumph in the garage, and growing up in the ’70’s, I always had friends who had a Yamaha 4 stroke….. at this time I was quite smitten with the RD350, having had several.
Nowadays I have a modern Triumph Scrambler and a crusty old XT500. I think both bikes have had a significant impact in motorcycle culture.
I was 16 in 1985 and a neighbour had a 1972 XS650 red and white. I was riding my Honda twister when he offered to sell me the XS650. It was in great shape he wanted $650, I was going to school and had only $500. I'm riding home on the school bus about a month later and it passes the bus like we were sitting still. He sold to the local bad boy who destroyed it by the end of the summer. John told me later, "I wished I had sold it to you I'd still see you riding it past my house." I never did get the chance to buy another one.
I had an '81. Eleven years, ~48K miles. Rotor went bad, gave it away, needed too much work & cost to restore. Needed valves, stem tops were pitted, though I kept them adjusted. Had blown a head gasket@ ~ 35K miles. Replaced steering stem bearings. Didn't leak oil, started reliably 99% by kicking, shook enough to mix paint. It was my primary bike and from day one uncomfortable. I never owned a Triumph Twin, but had owned a Triumph 250 single - which kept me broke and taught me how to work on motorcycle engines, over and over. By contrast my pre-ragged out 3rd owner (at least) Austin Healey Sprite was refined and reliable. I wish I still had most of the motorcycles I've owned - this isn't one of them.
U must have bought a shed ,
@@Crosshatch1212 I'll likely regret this - in the context, what does "a shed" mean?
Having owned and ridden both models and brands back in the day I can point out a few key differences. The Triumph was faster, lighter, handled better, and was more fun to ride. The Yamaha was built to a higher standard, and would last at least 3 times as long before requiring an overhaul. The Yamaha design team closely studied the ancient Turner Twin and improved and updated the design, incorporating an overhead camshaft, modern CV carburetors, a 5 speed transmission, left hand shift, and reliable electrics. As an early foray into the parallel 4 stroke twin for Yamaha, the bike was heavier than absolutely necessary. For all but racers this was not a significant drawback.
I had a Yamaha 650 & loved it & had a King Queen seat which was great for a back pack! You could lean & cruise & didn't get fatigued !
Hi from the uk
I also have owned both and for me the yamaha was technically better but as you said the handling was not as good and the triumph did handle better it gave you a reassuring feel that it was sure footed all in all loved both of them
Great vid
My uncle pulled up to the house on a brand new 71 XS650 in Gold and I got a ride. Totally ingrained in my memory bank. Have always loved the looks of that bike in Gold.
I’m an owner of a 1976 XS650C. Bought new at 17 yrs. old. It has about 80,000 miles of smiles on her. Purrs like a kitten. Extremely reliable. In comparison to the triumph one of the reasons of the Triumph handling better is the Triumph has more of a front rake than the Yamaha. The Yamaha in the turns tend to flop over as opposed to The triumph handing lines much better. The other big difference is the Yamaha Engine is buzzy compared to the Triumph. When I first bought my Yamaha my friends rode Triumphs, BSA’s and H-D Sportsters. They teased me big time buying a Japanese bike but after a while they backed off because we were always tinkering with their bikes and my Yamaha was basically gas n go. The Hondas, Yamahas, Kawasakis, Suzukis, etc. flooded the American market and the Brits just couldn’t compete. Today when I ride my Yamaha I occasionally get a guy around my age who will ask me about my bike. It’s still a head turner.
I have owned 3 XS's. The XS650 engine is probably the best engine of its type to come out of Japan. It was based on a BSA design that was improved by a company called Horex then it was sold to Japan
Back in '75 I was a navy airdale stationed at NAS Miramar. I rode a Honda 450. A friend bought a brand new Triumph Bonneville. Within six months it sort of disassembled itself.
Things would shake loose and fall away.
One day the foot shifter just became disconnected internally and hung down like a broken arm. The bike wasn't even six months old.
I forget what happened but my mate wasn't too happy. I can tell you the Brits put themselves out of business. Their build quality was disgraceful the last few years.
Ironically, old Triumphs from the '60's and '70's are fetching ridiculous money today. I can say with authority that in 1975 you could barely give away an English bike; at least not in California. No one wanted them. I had friends who actually got mocked for riding a "limey".
Whatever shortcomings the Yamaha may have had, compared to any European bike, and especially a Meriden Triumph, it was a precision built work of art.
The Japanese worker strives for quality and attention to detail. It's their culture. It was well reflected in their entire motorcycle industry.
First: this man is specialist!
Second: as far as i know, Yamaha had poor, weak frame in the beginning.
Yamaha hired Percy Tait.
He was test-rider Triumph.
Because of his test-riding, late models XS650-frame are stiffer.
At least: XS650 was first bike, to parking reverse:
On main-stand, rev the engine. Because vibrations, XS move backwards.
Also i removed E-starter on my 1984 XS.
Kick only
E-starter is bad engineering: bad Solenoid, bad sprocket.
Sorry my bad english.
I'll get the best of me.
I had the good fortune of riding vintage and modern Triumphs and Yamahas over a span of 60 years. I love Triumphs for how much fun I imagine motorcycling is *supposed to be* but the Yamahas (or any Japanese bike) give me peace of mind that I'll get to my far-away destination and back without worries. I wish the Yamaha TRX850 would make a comeback.
Thanks for showing these two beauties. I myself own an XS 650 since about 1994. It had not been my first bike and I also had a lot of other bikes inbetween, parallel to the XS. Some of them had been more modern ones with much better driving properties. However, after some years I exchanged each of them for another bike. But I´ll never sell the XS.
I owned a 1976 750 Bonneville Triumph in 1977 to 1981. It was a nice looking machine but the quality was terrible. Some of the chrome literally peeled off or cracked. I traded it off in 1981 when it had 20,000 miles. The top end was completely worn out . I was surprised since I had taken great care of it and kept good oil in the engine. I rode alot and I needed a more reliable machine. I bought a KZ650 Kawasaki. You could never wear that one out and I still own it today 43 years later. It never stranded me. Triumphs are cool looking but if you ride them alot they need alot of work done to keep one going.
Triumph air filters were poor and pistons not the best quality.
In 1980 I bought a 78 Bonneville and my friend bought a 72 XS650. Power was about the same but mine was smoother. I had way more trouble. Oil consumption and leaks. MPG highway, mine 38, his 60. I kept wearing out clutches and primary drive components. I had to install a high output alternator, Japanese switches and Mikuni carbs to make it a daily ride.
Back in the early '70s I owned a Yamaha 650 XS-1. Overall, I liked it, but its vibration was extreme. I preferred riding a Triumph 650 Bonneville. Years later I rode a friend's newer version of the Yamaha XS650 and it was much smoother. Apparently, the factory made some improvements.
Keep up the grind man your views show the potential of this channel to grow big! Plus, I hope you figure something out to make the POV look better. Overall, great video as always man!
Three of us used to ride together but two of us had 1972 650- Bonnies and the other rider a '72 Yammy XS650. On the straight we all stayed together but round the bends we Bonnie riders left the Yammy behind. This was back in '72 - '73.
I think the Truimph has the sound and the cool factor.
I owned a 1974 XS650 for over 25 years and I loved it, but one moment I needed something totaly different and so I bought a BMW R1200r. What a handling and performance!
I'm now 73 and owned and rode several British bikes at the time the Yamaha 650 was a hot seller. I also worked on both types while working part time in a noted motorcycle shop . My last Triumph was a 78 750 T140E . It had better carburetion with Amal Mk 2s, and factory electronic ignition. Those 2 more modern items made the British bike easier to use for non-mechanical riders. The early Yamaha 650s had a decompression device linked the the starter switch, they did struggle with the early electric starters. Those Yamaha 650s had something like 10:1 compression. If you're commuting daily all year around, you can't beat the Yamaha 650 for reliability. The engine is close to indestructible. In my memory the later model 650s didn't seem to have starter problems. The Triumph requires some awareness in the area of servicing. The engine, primary drive and gear box all had separate oil requirements, whereas the Yamaha didn't. The Triumphs that had the oil in the frame, it was actually was pretty good, even though some people would say "It's not a real Triumph." The design of those frames came out of the BSA racing program. It was also a way to get BSA and Triumph engines into the same frame as the companies were under the same umbrella.
I had a 1979 Yamaha XS650 Special, it was an absolutely great bike, I loved it and I rode the hell out of it, that bike never failed me once.
I do not know about triumph motorcycles at all, of the 111 motorcycles I have had so far, I’ve never had an English motorcycle.
but working in five different motorcycle shops through the 70s 80s and 90s, I do know how good the Yamaha XS 650 twin was. That is 100,000 mile motorcycle. They’re only slight weakness was brushes for the generator. You needed to replace the brushes about every 15,000 miles. And you needed to make sure you had a good ground connection between the battery and the frame. The paint on the frame where the battery ground strap attached sometimes did not make a good connection because of the paint on the frame..
other than that, the Yamaha XS 650 twin was Yamaha‘s first ultra, reliable, good design, long lasting four stroke engine..
Triumph motorcycles on the other hand, when I was A teenager, not yet into motorcycles. I didn’t want a tramp, and I never wanted a Harley even these days. I wanted Honda and later Kawasaki and Yamaha motorcycles.. I did try one BMW, a 2004K 1200 LT. I won’t go into it, but I ain’t never going out on that BMW limb again. That was my first and my last BMW. They sure ain’t what they used to be. I have had 4 moto guzzis.. I owned one or the other of those machines continuously from 1980 through 2021. Just under 190,000 combined miles on those four Italian machines. Never left me stranded, as simple to work on as the old VW air cooled, 40 hp Beatles… I never had to buy any major parts, just valve, cover gaskets, a couple cables that I felt were too long on my SP 1000/throttle cables, but other than batteries, oil tires, Filters, brake pads, I really never had to spend any money on repairs on any of those moto guzzi machines. My last one was a Norge 1200 GT, which I had for 14 years. As much as I loved them, I just didn’t fit them, they all seem to have been made for someone under 5‘,8“ tall, I am 5‘11“ tall and my legs were always just a little bit too bent, so I really couldn’t ride them for more than two hours at a time without needing to take a walk..
all the rest of my dirtbike‘s, play, dirt, bikes, Commuter, bikes, sport, bikes, Road racing machines, sport, touring bikes, dual sports, and big touring machines Have all been Japanese with the exception of three of my four trials bikes. I had a beta, gasgas., fantic trials machines , they are Spanish or Italian. I’m still not sure, but if you want the best trials, bikes, you buy one of those or possibly an Aprilia or Montessa..
but for the bulk of my 111 motorcycles, so far, I worship at the altar of performance and reliability, which meant, I stuck with Japanese engineering..
i’ve had friends that own machines like the 441 Victor, triumph 650 Bonneville, triumphs, 500 Daytona, twin, and they just didn’t seem modern to me. I remember my friend had a 441 Victor back in the 90s. He was a full-time mechanic at a Yamaha/suzuki shop. I worked at part time as a salesman. I asked him, why do you ride this dinosaur when you know better? Because there were times he could not get that bike to start to go home from work after the shop was closing for the day. His wife would come and pick him up. The next day, that bike would start on the first kick. He explained.” that’s the way they are”..
The reason he was riding a 441 Victor instead of a Japanese motorcycle, he explained it this way
he said, if I had a Suzuki or Honda or Yamaha or Kawasaki, modern motorcycle, of course, it would always start, it would get great gas, mileage, it wouldn’t leak oil or shake, I could get on it, and go 50 miles away with no problem, and 50 miles back. Without even so much as a hint of a problem. .. just like owning a Toyota Corolla, it’s always gonna start, it’s always gonna get you there, it’s always gonna get you home
where is the fun in that question
would you ride something like a BSA 441 Victor, if you can get it started, it is a sense of accomplishment, if you can make it 50 miles from home, shut it off and go and have a sandwich somewhere, and then get it to restart and actually make it home, that is a fantastic accomplishment, that you are able to keep one of these things running reliably for that long. It’s exciting riding something that you are not sure if it’s going to quit at any time. , It literally keeps you on the edge of your seat, you can picture in your mind what’s taking place inside dead engine while you are riding it 50 miles from home, and you hope nothing breaks..ANYBODY Can ride a Japanese bike, it takes a real motorcyclist to ride an English motorcycle like this.. you better know what you’re doing, and you better be prepared to fix it when it won’t start out there on the road somewhere at any time”
He does have a point there
I had an XS650 as my first motorcycle, and loved it. Your example is gorgeous, and makes me wish I had kept mine. Those good looking alloy rims were a feature I found very classy. I was waiting to see if the bike walked backwards on the centrestand when you revved it, and sure enough, it does! I note that it has it back wheel off the ground on the centrestand, while the Bonneville does not, which may explain some things. Engine vibration at speed was pretty evident in the handlebars on the XS650, with predictable results on the image in the rearview mirrors.
I Had a Kawasaki 650 at the same time - it had a smoother engine and nicer exhaust note at high rpm, but the transverse four made it a heavier lump to move around. Sold both bikes years ago with lots of spares, including even extra tanks and fenders. Sadly parts like that are way harder to find nowadays.
My current vintage bike is a very clean1968 Honda CB 450 twin, which ticks all the same boxes with its chrome fenders, wire wheels, gorgeous DOHC engine, and a twin leading-shoe front drum brake. That bike seems to get down the road as quickly as either the two bikes you review , at least from memory. My sense is that the handling is also better on the Honda than the Yamaha, but have I never owned or rode or even ridden an older Bonneville.
I've ridden a few of both. the tr is more fun. revs quicker and has more on top. feels smaller,lower and liter. but... the yam will give you less trouble. by time the yam needs a valve adjust the tri needs a top end.
Nice video. I've owned both a '71 Triumph T120 and a '71 Yamaha Xs1-b (still have the Yamaha). The Triumph seemed a little less refined than the Yamaha and the Yamaha, in my opinion handled better. The T120's were considered very good handling bikes, but the '71 T120 was the first year "oil in frame", so was a bit taller than its predecessor, which may account for the lees than stellar handling. Both bikes started well and had decent power. Both bikes were very reliable, however, I did have a few issues with the Triumph electrical. After fiddling with the points for the first several months of owning the T120, I resorted to installing electronic ignition, and the OEM Lucas headlight bulbs barely lasted a season. On a positive note the Triumph exhaust was still solid after 50 years while the Yamaha mufflers were rusted through years ago.
All in all I enjoyed both bikes very much, but I still have the Yamaha...
Rob D.
1975 Yamaha xs650 was my 1st big bike , ived owned at least 30 bikes since then, want one again but have 3 bikes my wife rolls her eyes.
Had them both. And loved them both. ......and for the same reason mentioned, the Bonnie was the nicest ride. ....
in the 80s i had to choose between 3 machines.
a completely restored hardtail triumph from the 60s for 8.000 DM
a Yamaha XS 650 in really used conditions
a nearly new Kawasaki Z750 LTD Twin Y1 with 4.000 km from a friend who stopped riding for 3.000 DM
i own the Kawa till now, I drove her till 2001 80.000 km without any problems, I stopped riding
additional I have a T120 from 2022 because i always regretted not to choose the Triumph
I actually had several of both bikes. The Triumph handles better to me . But the Yamaha definitely had better electronics by far ! The Triumph used a Diode and heat sink to kill excess voltage produced. If it fails it would burn up all the bulbs and wires.
I have owned both and the Triumph was a much more pleasant bike to ride, the Yam cornered like a drunk camel on roller skates and had terrible brakes. I disagree that the Yam 650 was the bike that "Triumph should have built", it was a horrible top heavy badly handling POS which somehow although supposedly smoother, actually somehow vibrates more annoyingly than the Triumph. What Triumph should have done is build the T140 to Yamaha's incredible manufacturing standards and added an electric start (a real one not the crap one they later put on the T140).
Yah “the bike triumph should have built” is the common statement the xs gets. They say that because the advancements like electric start but also no electric problems that the Lucas had and no leaks or mess. But all those things would have made it more expensive and thus the xs would have still killed it.
Indeed you are correct, But that does not excuse the fact that it was/is a really terrible bike in its own right and in terms of riding enjoyment, it really misses the mark..
I did 40,000 miles on my T140V with no problems. Triumphs manufacturing standards were excellent, it was the engine design that was dated (but still capable). I owned ann XS2 and don't believe the Yam was "top heavy", it just felt that way due to the poor front end geometry that made it fall suddenly into low speed corners.
I had a number of XS650s the one that handled the best was the 650B. That bikes handling was superb once the shocks were upgraded and you kept an eye on the nylon swing arm bushes. The bushes were cheap and easy to replace but most owners didn’t seem to realise. So you could buy a cheap 650 with a few miles on it, because they hated the poor handling. However it was an easy fix as long as they hadn’t dropped the bike. So bargains were to be had at the time.
@@shabletent They certainly handled better after bracing between the backbone and the rear subframe was added around the area of the swingarm pivot. Superb handling? No. Better than the earlier models? Yes.
Loved my blue '73 XS. I rode it from Breckenridge to Ashtabula in '77 and the saddle felt like rats were chewing my ass after Chicago, but made it OK. Enjoyed it for several years afterward and it it is still around Ashtabula or Geneva somewhere. Too pretty to die. Great Bike !
A friend made a hardtail chop out of his xs in the 80s, looked great, with the reliability of Japanese motor.
I have a 1970 Triumph Bonneville, 18,000 original miles, nothing has been done to it, only thing changed is the tires and I have the originals. Could never part with it, its just to damn good looking! I hate the carbs though, so it doesn't get ridden that much. I ride a newer(2014)Bonneville and the reliability is great its also why the Japanese bikes took ahold in the 70's, as you said, cheaper but also the reliability. Electronics on British bikes leaves something to be desired, In the 70's I could buy all the Honda 350's I wanted, they were a dime a dozen and they were more dependable then English bikes, went through a bunch of them. Today I have the two Triumph's but for off road I have a Yamaha XT250, its Bullet proof, but through engineering/CNC's most bikes today are more reliable then there distant relatives.
I had the XS650 in the UK. I had always had BSA or Triumph before but the cost was the factor. My XS had double disks at the front, a major engine rebuild and was mostly outstanding. In snow the plugs arced onto your knees. Koni rear shocks improved the high speed handling, which was a slight weave over 80mph that was almost a tank slapper over 90. More modern tyres and this made the bike have no issues whatever.
I had two of the 650 Yamahas, one ‘exactly’ like the one pictured here. I loved those bikes.
Back in the 70s I had a 650 XS and my riding friend had a 650 Triumph, Wsn't long before he sold his bike and got a Yamaha. 147,000 miles and only changed the oil every 2,000 miles and one clutch cable.
I’ve had heaps of bikes over the years but the XS is one that I still remember, great bike.
Germany here; reckon for a long distance haul both bikes are excellent but the Yamaha Xs650 would narrowly be better however, if the Triumph 750 Bonneville has had all of it’s issues sorted including the cleaning up of the sludge-trap between the crankshaft, you’ll make that long distance travel unforgettable.
Kids today think we never had things like gas shortages before! I remember those long lines in the 70's!
Excellent comparison of the two most important parallel twins.
As someone who has raced and ridden both, and who currently owns three Triumph twins, allow me to add a few comments.
Where the Triumph wins is in its brilliant handling and gutsy power characteristics. The high CG of the Yamaha's OHC engine with its lighter crankshaft means it loses out to the Triumph here. However, the XS engine is an engineering masterpiece, is incredibly reliable and needs little care other than oil changes and the occasional valve adjustment. However, the handling of the XS is merely 'okay'. if you aspire to own and ride the Triumph you'd better be a fairly competent mechanic, because there are now almost no shops or people you can trust to work on them. (There are, however, many self-styled 'Triumph experts' who most definitely are not. If you can't wrench on it yourself and you aren't rich, buy the XS or a new Triumph instead.)
The bike that killed the British bike industry was the Honda CB750 Four, not the XS.
Also, the later Triumphs are less desirable than the older Triumphs because they're taller, bigger and don't offer the incredible 'ride-feel' of the late sixties models.
Comming back from working in Wales in 1971 where I had a 1978 Bonnevile I gave myself a rest from Britsh bikes .By 1976 I was looking at the Yamiha 650..I felt like a tractor next to the Triumph and for a little more money I got the XS 750 triple with a shaft drive .It was a great bike if not a little top heavey . In1976 it cost $1976.00 ..Easy to remember and a free leather jacket to boot .2 years later I went over to the BMW R 80 and never looked back... (at that time the BMW was $3200.00 or a third more then the Yamaha )
The Yamaha can hardly be called a copy . Ok , it looked similar but it had a roller bearing
crankshaft , overhead camshaft and horizontaly split case . The early models had some
handling issues which were (ironicly) sorted out by Triumph test rider and racer Percy Tait .
The XS 650 is an iconic machine . It is the sort of bike Triumph should have made in 1965 , instead
of sitting on their hands hoping that the Japanese motorcycle industry would just go away.
In the 1980s I had a 650 cc Yamaha XS2, which was the precursor to the XS650, and when that got stolen in about 1986 I bought an XS650. The handling was much improved on the XS650 when Yamaha brought in an English frame designer whose name I forget, but at the same time Yamaha had to modify the engine with softer cams because of emissions regulations, and it did not breathe as well as the XS2. I liked the XS650's handling, obviously, but I was disappointed with the XS650's lack of power compared to the XS2. Both Yamahas were a joy to ride. But even the XS650 did not handle as well as the 1968 Triumph 650 Trophy (single-carb version of the 650 Bonnie) that I owned in 1979.
Percy Tate
@@DennisMerwood Yes. Cheers!
Thoroughly enjoyed the video and the comparison. Was in college when these bikes came out and it was too broke to buy either of them, unfortunately.
I have only ever ridden bikes with a left-side gear change, so I would go with the Yamaha.
Back in 1972 bought my first street bike a 1972 XS2 650 Yamaha loved its style and look that was the first year for the front disc break and the electric starter with a compression release !
Red and cream.
XS650B in black. Best looking motorcycle ever conceived!
I was 15, i bought a 650 BSA. turned 16, bought a 68 650 triumph .at 17 bought a 1964 harley sportster. At 18 bought a 1950 harley davidson panhead. Never ever,ever,thought about buying a Japanese bike. True American boy.
I'm 64 so I was around 9 or 10 when the Honda CB-750, Yamaha XS-650, Suzuki GT-750 and Kawaski Mach 3s came on the scene so that's when my interest in bikes began although with off-road bikes as I was too young to ride on the road. As kids, we had Yamaha DTs and Honda SLs. My dad's interest in bikes began when he was a teenager and he owned Triumphs, Nortons, Royal Enfields, etc (but never a Vincent). I have no interest in those bikes at all. I don't dislike them but I have no wish to own any of them. Around 33 years ago, I bought a 1977 XS-650 and still have it. I've owned close to a dozen over the years and have four at the moment which I will never sell. To me, they are the perfect bike. OK, they're not perfect but all their imperfections can be dealt with. My bikes all have roller bearings in the swingarm, tapered rollers in the steering, cartridge emulators in the forks, Koni rear shocks, fork braces, electronic ignition, external oil filters, Mikuni flat slide carbs (one has Dell'Ortos), 750cc and (drum roll please) 270° cranks. A crank changed to the way all parallel twins are today is an absolute game changer for these and would be for the Triumph too. At 110 km/h the image in my mirrors is crystal clear. Yes, I know I've changed a lot on the Yams but they're old bikes and when restoring old bikes you have to replace a lot of parts so why not buy better parts and take advantage of modern technology? I'd do the same to any bike of that era, including a Triumph. I said I have no interest in British bikes of the '60s and '70s, well I have no interest in modern bikes either. I've riden a few including a Yamaha Nikkon and a Ducati Diavel and although they were both very nice, I didn't entertain the idea of buying one. I live in Newcastle, Australia and next weekend I'll be riding my '77 XS to Melbourne and back, a distance of 2,400 kms or 1,500 miles.
I owned both the 1970 Bonnie 650cc and the 750cc 1975 Bonnie. The handling of the 650 with the single loop frame was the best ever. Also I use the ignition key and not my finger to push the button on the carbs.
I've had several Brit's over the years... Triumph's, BSA and even the fabled " Triton "... currently own 3 Xs650s. Xs1, 75 Xs Police and a 82' Special... The Xs1 handles like a park bench and stopping requires a stopwatch... but the first 2 years of the Xs series they were the fastest... Best thing you can do for your Brit is install a Boyer ignition... If I had a choice between these bikes.... The Xs. 😎
Intresting that Kawasakis pre unit 650 twin was a licence of BSA A10
I owned an XS2 - it handled like a sidecar outfit: accelerate and the frame twisted and the bike dived to the left; brake and the forks twisted and it dived to the right. Thoroughly enjoyed learning how to ride it fast but I later bought a T140V and it is still the best handling bike I have ever owned.
The T120 was a beautiful work of art. If it were to be my daily commuter I would buy the XS.
I love the XS650, have owned 4 and I don't rule out owning one again. I have not owned a Meriden Triumph (had a Hinkley Triumphfor several years) but was always put off by questionable reliability, told to me by previous owners.
I totally respect the Triumph and would love to have one but never owned or rode one. I've had three XS 650s and ridden two of them cross country. I ride a Harley springer now but there is a sweet spot in my heart for the XS 650 🙂
Had both in the past.
The Bonnie was around 1300 dollars New in 1970.
The Yamaha was around 1250 dollars new also in 1970 ( US retail prices)
Both vibrated at speed but as the years went by the Bonnie became smoother in later models post 1980 with the electric start.
The Yamaha was easier to live with with its japanese quality control etc.
Great video..buuuuttt Your facts are a bit incorrect. Yamaha was near slamming their doors in 1973/1974 in the middle of a horrible reliability issues with their 750's..the same time Triumph was in transition from corporate ownership to a co-operative. There are many comprehensive write ups on the Yamaha's impact...none of which include any pressure on Triumph. I love my Yamaha's and my Triumphs...although they are both in the same vein....they are different motorcycles. Both are excellent.
Thank you for taking the time to make this. Ultimately the goal is to get the next generation into the bikes we love. I hope this he helpful.