@@peacesyll Kris could be an alternate version of Chara who didn't die (because no war) and they grew up from a toddler into a teenager. Asriel is older too, temmie seems to be older too.
It's amazing any artist, for most of the time they seem to be capturing real genuine worlds and never know it and thats what is so crazy and mysterious about it all
i think the strongest theory in my head is the idea of this being an alternate timeline due to the war never happening, as to why? its rather simple, no one knows what souls are capable of. in UNDERTALE, the motive for the humans attacking is made clear, they were scared of how powerful monsters could get with one human soul, and theres a book in the librarby that explains everything about both types of souls, making it clear that this stuff is well researched. however in deltarune the opposite is clearly obvious on the second floor, where a book details the opposite, where souls are pretty much unknown. i personally think its easy to believe that the lack of research done on the souls abilities could have kept the war from happening entirely, spiraling into deltarune.
Oooo! That is a fantastic line of logic! Maybe whoever was responsible for studying souls in the UNDERTALE timeline never did that research in the DELTARUNE timeline? Very interesting. That is an awesome theory my man!
@@JaruJaruJ thanks a lot man, i feel like the reasoning for the war starting in the first place is rather overlooked within the community. which it really shouldn’t be considering how important it is.
I would say the similarities are convergent rather than coincidence, since coincidence makes it sound like pure random chance and that is by no means possible with such similar games. An alternate reality can be very similar in terms of characters while having completely different worlds that work in different ways since it is, in it's real life form, a re-imagining.
Yeah, from a meta standpoint, you're right. Toby Fox made both games, so it's objectively not random chance in the real world. But within the universe of DELTARUNE, it would be explained as just coincidence IF it really is a completely disconnected alternate reality. Of course, this is all fiction that we're talking about, so it's possible that we're dealing with some version of alternate realities/timelines that Toby Fox invented. Anything it technically possible.
@@JaruJaruJ I like to think that alternate realities should be viewed in the same light as AUs in the Undertale community. In the Undertale fandom, AUs or Alternate Universes are regarded as universes that modify Undertale to make something new. Examples include Underswap, Underfell, Humantale, etc. ATs or Alternate Timelines, on the other hand, take the events of Undertale and change them without changing established facts about the original game. Examples of these would include Aftertale, Dreemurr Reborn, Chronotale, and Floweypot. AUs are by definition alternate realities because laws and established facts can differ between universes. For example, it would be extremely hard to get Underswap just by changing the events of Undertale with swaps like Flowey and the temmies. You’d have to somehow create a bunch of Floweys without killing Asriel because he is alive and takes the place of Monster Kid. You’d also have to get rid of all the Temmies except for one without having this Temmie or anybody else remember that there were other Temmies to begin with, all while also somehow managing to stuff a dead Monster Kid into the Temmie. And that’s for ONE SWAP. Thing is, Underswap is still very similar to Undertale. The only difference is that the main characters swap places. That being said, in this case alternate realities are allowed to be similar to each other without being classified as alternate timelines instead. It’s very possible that Toby Fox doesn’t want the connection of Deltarune and Undertale to be like the connection to the Undertale AUs, but there are still definitely enough similarities to consider. Assuming they all exist in the same multiverse, similarities between Deltarune and Undertale WOULD be explained as Deltarune being a reimagined version of Undertale in universe.
@@JaruJaruJ It doesn't have to canonically be coincidence. Especially with similar religions existing, it seems likely that their worlds were created by some sort of deity or magical force, not just the culmination of natural forces coming together like ours. It's perfectly reasonable for two connected worlds to be created to be similar. I don't think we have strong evidence for either theory when you consider how much context we're missing, especially with Deltarune not being nearly complete.
a lot of this theory seems to hinge on the idea that two alternate realities can only be similar by "coincidence" but i dont really agree with that. in media its *very* common for two alternate realities to have many similarities. even in the example you gave, spiderverse, the peter parker of miles' universe and peter b. parker are incredibly similar. in comics in general, the concept of alternate universes with only slight differences is very common. its possible that deltarune and undertale are two alternate realities that are somehow running parallel to each other and have some connections through means other than a branching timeline
To be clear, I know DELTARUNE could totally be an Alternate Reality and not an Alternate Timeline. That's why I used terms like "probable" and "unlikely" and other similar phrases. If two realities are extremely similar, then Occam's Razor would incline me to think it's an Alternate Timeline, but what's simplest isn't always what's true. Anything is possible in an Alternate Reality, which means that it is entirely possible for an Alternate Reality to be extremely similar to another reality. There's no way for me to prove that DELTARUNE is NOT an Alternate Reality, because an Alternate Reality can be ANYTHING, and thus it will always be on the table as a possibility. I'm not ruling it out. I'm just saying that the simplest explanation for two separate realities being similar is that they're Alternate Timelines, as that instantly explains the similarities without any more explanation being needed. Both options are still on the table until such time as one or the other gets proven to be correct. No doubt about that.
@@JaruJaruJ I agree with greyson Rose, your point where you state that the characters life situations being almost identical to Undertale despite the very different background and setting is evidence for being an alternate timeline, when it's actually the opposite! An Alternate Reality having everyone be in similar situations despite different setting is completely normal and expected - everyone filling the same roles as in the original reality, but in a new context. Meanwhile in an alternate timeline you expect the exact opposite, peoples lives and events naturally diverge even if their core personality stays the same, because life isn't deterministic.
@@Dorsidwarf I generally agree (although I'm thinking Deltarune's world probably isn't just due to Toby Fox wanting it to be like Undertale for thematic reasons and having come up with Deltarune first thanks to the dream he had), but in Deltarune, things are presented more than ever as though they are... Well, largely, deterministic, with the player being a possible exception of sorts, and Spamton hoping the three can sever "their own strings", although if the game has a separate ending I'd only excepct it from the Weird Route, but okay I got a bit off-track, point is, a better argument can be made in Deltarune than in Undertale that those characters can't actually control their fate... Why that'd result in them being remixed versions of another universe's set of characters isn't explained by that, though.
@Potato "Unlikely" to be used, not "unlikely" to exist. Sure, all alternate realities are equally as likely to exist as the other, but really, what AR do you think Toby will use for Deltarune. Undertale but sans decides to stand one pixel to the left in Waterfall? Or a world where magic doesn't exist and the monsters are above ground? We're thinking possibilities. A world that is exactly the same with only context being different is much more likely to be an alternate timeline in Toby's eyes than not. An alternate reality that is not actually much different from the original is a mockery of the word, nobody would understand why you didn't just call it another timeline in a fandom like UT. It also unnecessarily tears away connection between the characters and the player. You're presenting the exact same product, and saying it is not. That would be unnecessarily frustrating for fans, even for just civil discussion, so I doubt Toby would pull something like that. We also have to think about the meta and real life implications on some of the directions he could take. If he is going to make an alternate reality, he's gonna make sure people have a reason to call it so beyond a tweet clarifying this to some fan. He wants to make a good, interesting game after all. There must be a VERY good reason he is being quiet about this being an AR or AT, most likely a twist that would only work if the AT is similar enough or the AR is fundamentally different.
I wonder if magic does exist in Deltarune and has been forgotten or locked away. It makes sense, though, that that one variable -- magic not existing in monsters or humans -- would change the entire history. Because if that was the case, then humans wouldn't be worried about monsters absorbing their souls, therefore the war never started, etc. On the other hand, I think monsters are still made of magic. The bunny kid living in an apartment asks Kris if it hurts being made of blood. So I'm thinking magic does exist, and monsters simply never discovered that capability, or only exists as "occult" magic like it does in our world. And for whatever reason, magic as we knew it in Undertale -- bullet patterns, healing magic, etc -- DOES exist in the Dark World. Or maybe the Dark World unlocks that latent capability in monsters, since Kris can't do it.
You make some excellent observation! I've noticed a lot of what you just mentioned, and I have a pretty big theory regarding what happened to DETLARUNE's magic. I just hope I end up determined enough to make a video discussing my theory! xD
It's possible that magic was just weaker by the time of deltarune Humans have gotten overall weaker so magic could be weaker and weaker due to monsters not needing to fight and arnt in as hostile environment as in Undertale
@@JaruJaruJ a few points which you missed talking about determination is that it is required to open dark fountains which could be done by both monsters and humans and it is be easily to do and with less determination since berdley was about to do it and queen was trying to use noelle to do it and neither had any side effects associated with monster having to much determination but undye faced the consequences of having to much. also that determination is NOT being used to turn back time but a different power which has 3 save slots and can copy the save slots why would determination be used to open dark fountains but NOT be used in much more advanced uses of time travel ? i think that power of light/shining or what you want you call it shows that it may not be another timeline due to this...
Personally, I would love to believe that DR is an alternate timeline, but I don't think it's very possible. First tho, I have an objection to your talk about magic. Catti talks about teaching Noelle protective spells. Magic is a thing in DR, just as in UT. Noelle just doesn't know these spells. There could be many reasons, magic has either been forgotten and is less accessible, or might have been altered by an in universe event that weakened it in the light world. It's impossible to say at this moment, but it definitely both exists and monsters are aware of it. Susie doesn't question it at all (Red/Rude Buster), nor does Noelle seem to be suprised by you expecting her to know how to cast spells (Ice Shock). Even Beardly is never called out for using tornadoes and flight (which with his body would require magic), as if Noelle and Susie expected him to be capable of that. As for dead monster, I think you left out some of the more important parts, that being some of the amalgamates not being present at the cemetary. The only ones we see there, are Crystal - Snowdrake's mother, Muttler - Endogeny and Shyra - Shyrin's sister. An aaron, a woshua and a moldbygg are missing from the Lemon Bread. Two Vegetoids from Snowdreak's mom's head are missing. Entirety of Reaper Bird is missing (Important to note, as that's UT's appearance of Everyman). Also Beardly is of note, as he does not turn to dust. This can however be explained, as when Papyrus' body dies, it already turns into dust, yet Beardly's arm doesn't in neutral run. It can be assumed that Beardly might have been made brain dead but alive, or alternatively, might be fallen. A term from UT, describing monsters when they are about to die of natural causes. Gerson is probably dead, because DT would have to be set a bit in the future (Monster Kid and Susie were Frisk's age in UT). I personally doubt Garson is a boss monster. He loves to tell stories. He'd mention it when he talks about boss monsters. I think he's this old simply because he's a tortoise-like monster. He probably just has an extremely long life expectancy. Father Alvin is pretty old, yet he is a preacher. While Angelism differs from Christianity in some ways (Alvin says that the concept of sin is not present in Angelism), monster kid wears a christian cross. It can probably be assumed that Angelism shares most similarities with Christianity, with only the controversial topics being removed for the sake of diversity. Therefor, I doubt Alvin has any hatchlings of his own. I wouldn't really consider Ice-E for either theory, as I think it's definitely likely that Sans might have gotten it from DT. I don't personally believe he's from there, but that one is a solid theory, so Ice-E has a walk around. It doesn't make much sense for a Freddy Fazbear's parody to have been built before the war, or to be identical despite completely different circumstances. Rudy IS in Undertale. He is dead tho. You should read the Alarm clock cancelled app. It's canon and shows that Rudy used to be Asgore's friend long ago. The little house in the background of Snowdin was his and the little character going outside, is a decedent of either Noelle or December. Also, in DT we see TERRY, not JERRY. Jerry is of light dirty-yellowish color. They are different (Probably related tho). We do not know the relation between Asriel and Terry. It's possible Jerry might be a troll of sorts, making a pathetic character based on a popular resident of his town. I personally don't think that DT and UT are a natural connection multiverally. What do I mean? I think it is either a timeline, that has been tempered with by an outside force (let's face it, it would most definitely be Gaster), or a parallel universe. Why do I think so? Well, see there is an awful lot of coincidences in both possibilities. Why are people born the same thought different timelines? Sans implies monsters reproduce in a similar manner to animals. If a baby was to be conceived a month earlier or later, then it would be completely different. Yeah, egg cells do choose sperm cells research has recently found, but due to menstruation, egg cells themselves would be replaced every so often. Not to mention all the likely alterations to the sperm deposit in each person. To have all these people have identical lineages for centuries (Yes, the war was centuries ago. Yellow soul's gun is described as an antique in UT), is a giant coincidence, seeing as timeline split would butterfly effect most of it. Also, it really can't be a different timeline, because of Holiday family. While Dreemurs could have lived this long for many reasons, perhaps Asriel in DT is actually not the same Asriel, but rather a younger sibling of a dead original Asriel, explaining why Asgore and Toriel stopped aging, there is nothing like that for Holidays. They are regular monsters who have been there with Asgore and Toriel on their wedding. Yet, they died of old age a long time before UT. At least Asgore implies that Noelle and December have grown and are of very different age to Susie and Monster Kid. This makes me think that DT's universe was either chosen based on it's coincidental similarities, or is a timeline, altered to have the same lineages, as well as having Holidays and Dreemurs be born at a later point in life. Either way, whichever kind of universe it is storywise, it's definitely treated as an alternate timeline of the meta standpoint. Even if we learn that Monsters don't turn into dust, for example, Toby still uses parallels with that story (And Gaster and Chara are most likely the same ones from UT). So, we should definitely use UT as evidence, no matter what level of multiverse houses their worlds.
First of all, thank you for the lengthy comment! I'm glad to see people getting invested in this discussion. I'll go ahead and give my thoughts one by one. Regarding magic in DELTARUNE, Catti is the only person in the Light World to bring up the concept of magic and take it seriously. Nobody else is seen discussing magic, and not a single person is seen using magic. By contrast, we see Toriel use magic within seconds of starting up UNDERTALE. As such, given that Catti is the only one who discusses magic, I interpret this to mean that magic in DELTARUNE is treated the same way people treat magic in the real world. Nobody actually believes in it, and only random niche parts of society, like goth teenagers, actually believe in it. I think Toby gave those lines about magic to Catti, a moody teenager, specifically to show that nobody mature or serious believes in magic in this world. We see Toriel doesn't clean her oven with fire magic, nobody heals Rudy with healing magic, nobody is seen wielding energy weapons like Undyne's Spear or Asgore's Trident, and when Kris tried to look up guides on how to use magic, all he could find was books on magic tricks. If magic existed in this world, wouldn't Kris be able to find books discussing real magic, and not just magic tricks? It is interesting that the monsters take to wielding magic so easily in the Dark World, but I don't think that's a result of them already knowing about magic. I think they just assumed it was a quirk of the Dark World. Otherwise, why don't we see Noelle, Beardly, or Susie using magic in the Light World? Fair point regarding the Dead Monsters. I guess my theory regarding that is that, in UNDERTALE, Asgore ruled over all the monsters, and so when he called for bodies to be brought in, he was able to acquire bodies from all over monster society. By contrast, in DELTARUNE, the monsters are all living aboveground, and thus a lot of monsters probably don't live in the Hometown. A lot of them probably moved away to other cities. As such, if that's the case, then those other dead monsters would be buried in other cities. Or at least, that's how I would explain this if DELTARUNE was an alternate timeline. If DELTARUNE is an alternate universe, then it could just be that those monsters aren't dead in this timeline. Either way, thank you for bringing this to my attention. I definitely should have discussed this in the video. My bad. Gerson might not be a boss monster. The tortoise-theory is definitely a valid interpretation. Also, I realize now there was a mistake in my script. I could have sworn that Alvin mentioned Gerson having grandkids, but looking back now I realize he does not mention that. He says that Gerson had "children," implying that Father Alvin has siblings, but it doesn't outright confirm that Gerson had grandkids. That was a mistake on my part. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I think the fact that Ice-E has a different catchphrase in UNDERTALE than he does in DELTARUNE proves that, wherever Sans got that word search from, it wasn't from the same reality as DELTARUNE. And while it is quite possible that Sans got it from another universe, it's also possible that this crossword just floated down from the human world. I had NO idea about this Alarm Clock thing! Thank you for bringing this to my attention! Wow! This was really fun to read. Thankfully my point about Rudy not being in UNDERTALE is still true, as he was only brought up in this Alarm Clock thing, and not in the main game. My main goal with that comparison was to point out the flaws in the "Asriel created UNDERTALE" theory. I always suspected that Rudy existed in UNDERTALE at some point. I just wasn't sure when he showed up, or when he died. So, thankfully, my point still stands, despite my ignorance of this Alarm Clock App. Thank you for this info though! Yeah, I accidentally called Jerry/Terry the wrong name. I only noticed my mistake after recording the video, so it was too late to fix it. I thought about pointing out my mistake in the video, but I figured nobody would notice. I was mistaken. xD You make some interesting points regarding the Holidays. The tricky part is that this Alarm Clock App is implied to have occurred some time after the events of UNDERTALE, and Asgore says Rudy's daughters "get to grow up in the sunlight," implying Noelle and December were still kids at the time of this Alarm App. He also isn't specific regarding when Rudy died. He just says "one day he fell down." For all we know, Rudy died just a short time before Frisk came to the underground. Or maybe Rudy was alive during the events of UNDERTALE, and the Alarm Clock App takes place several years later. It's possible that DELTARUNE Rudy managed to live longer thanks to not living underground, and having access to more advanced medical technology. Hard to say. Either way, I don't think this info disproves the alternate timeline theory. The info we have regarding UNDERTALE Rudy and his family is just vague enough that we can still make it work. Regardless, thank you for the lengthy comment and all the helpful info! I really appreciate it. x)
@@JaruJaruJ You're very welcome! I had a ton of unsheared thoughts on the topic, as I've genuinely not seen anyone else making a video on this except you, with most people assuming one of the two and not questioning it. I was happy to see an actual discussion about this, so I might have just spilled all my thoughts on it in that comment... Oops! Well, here are some of my responses to your responses: As for the magic, I can see your points. I'd consider it explicitly ambiguous, just as the line about how rules "might" be different. I, however, personally lean more so towards magic existing, just being replaced by technology, as I don't see Noelle particularly being the kind of person who, if she was a human in our world, would get into these things. Also, there is the fact that Toriel (Whom Ralsei has many parallels to), specifically explains it frisk in UT should be of note, as Ralsei seems to assume that Kris (Or player, depending which Ralsei theory one goes with), knows about it. So, as I said, I can see both, but I think magic going out of use is more likely, probably due to technological advancements. Remember, that Mettaton says robots are made out of Magic and metal. Gaster's machine (whether it's DT extractor or the core) also had to have been pretty magical if it was able to give him power to be aware of it being a game (Yes, I think since Jevil says "darker, yet darker", it's pretty much objective that Gaster is the mysterious figure who has driven him mad). Therefor, if on the surface monsters and humans live in somewhat harmony (probably separated, but not on war terms. There are human care books for monsters afterall), I think it's safe to assume that their electronic tech might have replaced magic. Tho, once again, I can see both possibilities being true. As for the dead monsters, yeah, I suppose they could have just been taken to Alphys from different areas of the underground. Or maybe be of different faiths, with separate cemeteries (I know Jews bury their dead separate from christian cemeteries, not sure about atheists and other religions tho). One nitpick tho, you sound as if you thought amalgamates were made from dead monsters? They weren't dead, just fallen. It's the term we learn in Snowdin books, True Lab logs and source code. Monsters in UT don't really get sick naturally (Implying Rudy's condition might be special, if that rule applies to DR). They only die when killed, injured, or of old age. In the latter case, an old monsters stops moving and is consider "Fallen". That's what many believe Beardly is in Snowgrave. Amalgamates were created from fallen monsters. That's also what Rudy experienced in UT, according to Asgore. Yeah, you're right about the different Ice-E catchphrase. Tho, I think it's important to note that it has a FUN event, with all other ones indeed relating to Gaster and timeline shenanigans, so there is likely more to this puzzle. It's only fitting for a FNaF reference to contain cryptic storytelling. Sorry if I misunderstood you about Terry. I thought you considered him to be Jerry, because you showed him as one of the "returning characters". You're right about that Noelle and Dess are actually implied to be young during UT itself. Had to have misremembered that one. Well, it's still interesting to note that, as Yellow soul's gun is an antique and Asgore has been the king before that point, Rudy would have then been extremely old in UT. He's even considered fallen, meaning he died of old age. I guess since he and Asgore both went to collage together, that means Reindeer monsters lives similarly long to Garson? Or I guess maybe Rudy is a Boss monster too and didn't have children for a long time... Either way, I suppose this part of the alarm clock debunks the idea of Asgore being the goat in opening of UT, huh? I suppose the horns are different anyways. Well, still Holidays and Dreemurs don't seem ancient in DT, so the question of how they can be of normal age in DT if it's a natural timeline stands. Also, one more thing that I forgot to talk about, I think it's important to note how DT might be hinting at some of its multiverse's nature through references to other video games? While I don't think these references by any means should be considered hard evidence, UT already used references to literature for it's mysteries (There is that one Asian novella referenced in royal guards fight, for example), a newer game, like DT, might use other video games. Tho perhaps that's just my bias to other ones and it's a stupid theory. I do admit this one is quite a stretch. Think about it, what are the most prominent video game references in DT? Starfox, with Beardly's dark world design clearly being inspired by Falco (I think there was a referance to wave dashing there, so, yeah...), Yoshi and therefor Mario, through two whole references to "The Lizard", with both Smash and either SMW, SMBW, or SMBU (2D platformer with ridable yoshis) and FNaF with Ice-E's and Purple Guy (maybe nightmare too, but that's weaker). There's others, but Beardly is a whole character, Ice-E is connected to FUN and The Lizard is mention two whooping times. Looking at these franchises, Both Mario and Starfox operate on static time travel, meaning that traveling back in time doesn't create a new timeline, but rather, happens through every run of the time continuum (At least that's how it is in Mario & Luigi: Partners in time. Not sure about Star Fox Adventure, but I have been told so). This means that the timeline split would not have been due to time travel. Then, FNaF has it's different universe - The original Novels (the new books are complicated now, so I'm just mentioning the original trilogy) - which are pretty important productions, as they were written by the main author, unlike something like Super Mario cartoons, or Star Fox manga. In FNaF, the two main universes work by being timelines.
No worries! I'm quite glad that my video managed to discuss something that nobody else had addressed yet. The magic in DELTARUNE is extremely fascinating, and there's a lot of small details and evidence to pour over. The video I'm most excited to make is my "What Happened to DELTARUNE's Magic?" video, so I hope I work up the energy to make that video someday. No worries, I get the difference between "Fallen Down" and dead. I just used the words interchangeably in this video since the distinction wasn't too important for the points I was making. You make a very good point regarding the FUN event. UNDERTALE Ice-E is weirdly mysterious. No worries about Terry/Jerry. It was indeed a mistake on my part. I think what's puzzling you about Rudy is that you're assuming that since Rudy and Asgore went to college together that they must be the same age, and I don't think that's the case. I think Asgore didn't go to college until a college was finally built in Hotland. Plenty of people go to college when they're older after all, and if Asgore is as ancient as I think he is, then he's probably been around since before colleges existed. Asgore even mentions that he was "There for it all. His youth. His marriage. His fatherhood." If Asgore was "there for it all," that would imply that he was alive before Rudy and was present for Rudy's entire life. This, in my opinion, implies that Asgore predates Rudy by quite a large margin. I think that's why they bring up that Rudy called Asgore "big man" his whole life. Asgore was his elder for as long as he knew him. Or at least, I think that's what's being implied here. The idea of an UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE multiverse is certainly an interesting one. There's certainly groundwork there if Toby wanted to go in that direction, although I think it's too early to say if that's what his end goal is. That said, I do actually have a small theory that might tie in to the idea of a multiverse. Remember how Ralsei's prophecy mentions "AT WORLDS' EDGE" in his prophecy? Well, it might be significant that Toby chose to use the word "worlds'". If he had used the word "world's," that would make sense, as there's only one world being discussed here: Earth. But, he used "worlds'," which is the plural form. This could imply that, whenever the prophecy passes, multiple worlds will be in danger. This might just be referring to the Light and Dark Worlds, but it could also be referring to Alternate Realities/Timelines. Just a little detail that I haven't seen many people discuss. I've thought about making a short video just discussing that one word from the prophecy, just because I found it so interesting. Regardless, you could totally use that as potential evidence for your multiverse theory if you wanted to. xD
@@JaruJaruJ Oh, that magic video sounds like a great idea! Good luck with it! You might be right about UT Rudy. I suppose he indeed is never referenced to as Asgore's peer. Tho Dreemurs still are a bit of a mystery in DT, since if I remember correctly, Rudy is outright confirmed to be Asgore's age there. But I guess it can be explained with Goats' particular aging. Perhaps monster lineages are consistent no matter the time child is made and some of Toriel and Asgore's ancestors could have lived longer and taken off some centuries from the current pair. I really like the idea of the Roaring being an outright type 3/4 multiversal thereat! Really interesting theory.
So, there's a lot of talk about the knight, and I have had a theory that got a lot of people thinking. I think it may interest you too? What if Dess is the knight? They're a character we haven't seen we know they have history in this world and that they disappeared, they could be anywhere at any point, perhaps travelling the Dark world, and maybe they possess the powers to open fountains from within the darkworld itself? Which may be who we hear in the code of Deltarune that's trapped. Just a weird theory of mine.
Very interesting! I hadn't considered that. Man, there's so many interesting theories regarding the identity of the Knight! I love hearing them all. :D
@@darkmatter9643 knowing Toby, I think Kris opening the fountain is a red herring. One, it’s too early in the game for the knight’s identity to be revealed like that. Two, it seems WAY too obvious, people were guessing Kris is the knight even in chapter 1 because they’re literally a knight in the dark world, and the weird Chara-ish behavior. Way, way too obvious.
@@empiar5481 plus, Kris only opens a fountain after hearing Queen explain how the Knight opened portal and saying any Lightener can open a fountain with determination!
@@blakeprice8243 Furthermore, Kris couldn't have possibly opened the cyber world fountain because we were controlling them at the time. We know that the fountain was opened while Noel and Berdly were in the computer lab when the fountain opened because 1. They think that they are in a dream, and 2. Their books are already out on the table after the fountain was closed.
I honestly think DR can be either an alternate timelin or an alternate reality, because there are endless alternate realities/universes which means that every possible combination is in one of the alternate realities/universes. For example: There is an alternate reality/universe where papyrus has a blue scarf just because he liked blue more than red, but there is also an alternate timeline where he has a blue scarf because something happened to the red one. In both of these scenarios papyrus has a blue scarf and to figure out why we have to know how it happened.
You could very well be right! We don't know exactly how the UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE multiverse works as of yet. Some fictions have endless alternate realities, but some fictions have finite quantities of alternate realities. So even if DELTARUNE is an alternate reality, it's hard to say what that means or how that works in the greater cosmology of this franchise.
There’s something you forgot: Humans could once use magic too. After all, it’s implied that human mages sealed the underground and created the barrier, not monsters. But in the time since, humans seemed to have forgotten how to use magic. Since this might be a universe where the war never happened, maybe both monsters and humans forgot how to use magic over time.
@@JaruJaruJ and it would also explain the room that Kris lands in the beginning of the dark world labeled "??????", which had the eye symbols around it that the Titans have on their (armor?)
I don't see how it is possible for the monsters to grow up in such different circumstances to be the same people in an alternate timeline. It makes more sense as an alternate reality
I'd like to point out that Toriel actually uses her stove in Deltarune, but in Undertale she uses fire magic instead which acts as evidence that magic doesn't exist in Deltarune. Also I want to say that just because many things are "coincidentally" the same in an alternate reality doesn't mean that it the chance for that happening is low. There could be an infinite amount of alternate realities and Toby Fox simply showed us one that has many similarities to Undertale but enough differences to be its own game. I am hoping though it is an alternate timeline as I think it'd be super cool to see how a divergence in a timeline could change so much and being able to connect Undertale and Deltarune is fun. Toby Fox did make a tweet however saying that he's glad people are starting to see Deltarune as its own thing and not just looking at it in relation to Undertale, so we'll see how this goes.
Just wanted to quickly mention, if you say "I don't know" in one of Mettaton's quiz questions, Alphys actually says explicitly alternate universes exist. I'm still in limbo regarding my own stance here but just thought I'd bring that up in case nobody else has yet.
Interesting. I did not know that! That said, we don't know if she's actually talking about what we would call an "Alternate Reality." It's possible she's actually referring to the Alternate Timelines, which it would make sense for her to study, as we know Alternate Timelines are all tied up with the Determination that she has dedicated most of her research to.
@@JaruJaruJ yes because there are really big differences between alternate realities, alternate universes and, alternate timelines, an example being the from marvel, The 9 realms are alternate dimensions but they all exist in the same universe, being universe 616, but in comparison the what if Marvel Zombies takes place in a completely different universe, and in Avengers 2012 and Endgame and the Loki series, when Loki escapes with the Tesseract that is a separate timeline from the original one when he’s taken to prison on Asgard, but they both take place in the MCU universe. I hope this explanation helps :)
i think a neat explanation to why there is no magic in deltarune, when there is in undertale, could be that instead of the war concluding in the monster being trapped underground, they instead were made to give up their magic. i dont think it'd be too much of a leap in logic that if humans could make a powerful barrier to trap them, they couldnt also have done something to conceal the monsters magic instead
There's also parallel Universes, which could be the exact same characters(in terms of personality and behavior) but put into a different context, where the timeline has no similarities, but the characters match, basic concept of character arcs have similarities, sometimes with differences for the sake of the new story being told, and sometimes some rules are changed, whilst others stay the same.
why this isn't a post-pacifist timeline (as example): Asriel is alive, and Undyne doesn't know Alphys. if it were a timeline where Frisk saved the Underground, Asriel could not be alive. he can't return from death, or be in his goat form forever, as stated by him in the pacifist ending. and Undyne should obviously know Alphys. DELTARUNE can be either: >a timeline that splitted before Asriel's death, and somehow monsters freed themselves... hmm; >a timeline where the war never happened and etc; >an alternate universe/reality.
Correct! You have rightly analyzed the situation! It's also possible that something really wacky is going on. Like maybe DELTARUNE is a video game in the world of UNDERTALE, for example. But assuming nothing crazy like that is happening, I agree with your assessment.
@@JaruJaruJ There has been a theory going around that it's the other way around, that Undertale is a video game created by Asriel in the deltarune universe. It mostly stems from Asriel having files on his computer about a game concept he made as a little kid including a poorly drawn bit of artwork of a final boss with rainbow wings, an obvious reference to his boss fight. Definitely an interesting theory, even if I don't think that's the direction Toby is going to go.
Asriel lied to the player actually he still has the souls let me tell an example you have a power of something you use that power it wont fade away right? Plus before the special thanks you will see asriel getting in phase 1 saying "haha you think you are done? , i mean did you forget the special thanks" how the heck is the able to turn back to his infinite power and infinite defense form as he says he lost the souls and also he is already using phase 1 and he has infinite defense and atk before he says hes using a small fraction of his real power that you cant even check and before you go to the bed of flowers and find him he actually teleported there since nobody even saw him and when he was omega flowey before you get to spare him him or kill him he loses the souls and becomes to a normal flower in seconds and his true from is made of every monster soul in the underground when he shatters the barrier he uses them actually why wouldnt everyone die or dissapear so asriel is lying this is now confirmed
I'm amazingly late to the party. I just played Ch. 2 for the first time, and it's still stuck in my brain. I loved this video, it did a great job exploring a topic that I've been thinking very hard about! However, no one here seems to be pointing out how Asriel's age poses a big problem for the alternate timeline theory. In Undertale, Asriel was born decades, if not centuries before the start of the game. Yet, in Hometown, he's just a few years older than the other Undertale characters. True, Asriel's never shown on screen, but there's plenty of textual evidence that he's both 1. the same character and 2. only about 18 years old in Deltarune.
21:13 I would like to point out that determination seems to work differently in deltarune than it did in undertale, in undertale it can only be generated by humans under normal circumstances and when to much of it interacts with monsters they turn into goop, this obviously is not how it works in deltarune because the entire plot of chapter 2 is basically just queen trying to make one of the lightners create another dark fountain and it seems to only require determination and something to stab the ground with and berdly is literally about to create one by the end of the chapter
You make a fair point, but I think the evidence we have is too vague at this point to confirm it. In UNDERTALE both monsters and humans could generate at least some amount of Determination, and we don't know how much is needed to create a Dark Fountain. It's possible that even a small amount of Determination inside of a monster is sufficient. However, we also never see a monster create a Dark Fountain. Queen thinks a monster can, but she states herself that she was just guessing this would work based off what the Knight did. She had no idea about the Roaring or anything else, so I'm inclined to think she's not an authority on how Determination works or anything like that.
@JaruJaruJ than we have to keep in mind that *somebody* opened the fountain. But who? If we need a lot of determination than it had to have been a human and kris's is the only human in town. so unless either kris's opened the fountain or there's some hidden human in town, the night *must* be a monster. if that is the case that means either a: monsters have more determination in this timeline. Or b: you don't need a lot of determination to open a fountain.
@@thumbsup8985 a crazy thing could also be that it's maybe either frisk or chara. We don't know where they are or of they eve exist. It seems kinda like kris is a combination of them but i think that wouldn't make too much sense
In Undertale, Asriel says he uses everyone's determination, including the monsters, to break the barrier, and Undyne staves off death all on her own, though of course she melts once she's killed again and very likely would have after killing you anyway, but monsters definitely have their own determination,. The thing was that it not only seemed insignificant compared to humans', but we also knew their bodies could not handle it properly one way or the other, so it's only really relevant in the sense that if one of them got absurdly determined, manually, let's say, then they could pull an Undyne, but now things are different... Was the not actually innate (well, kinda, it's probably only there as much as one is actually determined, I mean like, regardless of their soul, whereas humans appear to just have a bunch of it within their soul naturally) amount that monsters had enough to hypothetically make a Dark Fountain, though? I couldn't say... It'd make sense if no, but I also wouldn't call it a stretch if it could.
3:45 Maybe you'll get to this, but I feel like there's kind of a halfway point, which is parallel universes/dimensions, where they are within the same multiverse, so they share the same, like, laws of nature and physics, and characters may even be considered alternative versions of one another, but are differentiated my more factors than simply "X happened at this point, instead of Y." Sentinels of the Multiverse is an example of this. There are different universes, all of which are separate universes, but not necessarily just alternate timelines (i.e. there's a universe where everything is animals, and there's one where all the heroes are villains and vice versa. There's an XTREME universe, a Telenovela-verse (well, not anymore, but... well, I digress). None of these have shared pasts, so they don't fit the definition of "Alternate Timeline" as proposed at the beginning of the video, but they also aren't completely isolated and distinct like Star Wars is from, say, Harry Potter or All Quiet on the Western Front. They're part of the same continuity, just not the same reality. Another example is JoJo, which features an entirely different universe from Part 7 onward, but it isn't just the result of different decisions being made. It's just fundamentally different... except it's still JoJo, and characters are still analogous to characters from earlier parts. Johnny Joestar is Johnathan. Diego Brando is Dio. Kei Nijimura is simultaneously Keicho Nijimura AND Jotaro Kujo, somehow. And THAT'S where I think Deltarune falls. Not necessarily as simple as "Undertale, but a different thing happened," but also not as cut and dry as "it's completely separated, any similarities are completely coincidental." Because I am not sure I agree that the only 2 options are "they are exactly the same" and "NOTHING is the same." As you point out, there is evidence for both sides, which would seem to be an utter impossibility. Like, it is outright stated that Lightners possess Determination, which means that this is at least one way in which physics itself is different from Undertale. So, it can't just be a simple alternate timeline. But at the same time, just from a storytelling perspective, there is no reason to make all these characters be the exact SAME PEOPLE but then be like "oh no they're actually not even related to the same people in Undertale. They just happen to look, sound, and act exactly like them." In all but the most pedantic sense of the word, that means they're the same damn people. Just different versions of them. So, I think it's pretty obviously an alternate universe, but with the asterisk that the definition proposed at the start of the video is flawed, and this particular TYPE of alternate universe is kind of halfway between the two definitions. 17:35 yeah, see, I don't think that's a point against it being an alternate reality, I think that's a point against your definition of alternate reality being the correct one
I completley agree with you. There are even two points of evidence which would go completely against Deltarune being in an alternate timeline from Undertale. 1. Would be which you have already pointet out, that in Deltarune all Lightners (both humans and monsters) seem to inherently possess Determination, which in Undertale is not the case. While in Undertale both humans and monsters can use the power Determination, only humans inherent to it and it cans seriously mess a monster up if it uses too much of it, as seen with Undyne the Undying in Undertale's Genocide run. 2. Would be which JaruJaruJ has actually pointed out in his video that magic doesn't seem to exist in Deltarune's Light World, when in Undertale magic is something that definitley does exist. JaruJaruJ's definition of alternate universe/reality would be somethign I would describe as a "seperate universe/reality". I think alternate universes/realities generally have some similarities and connections to their original univeres/reality where as a seperate universe/reality would be as the name suggests completley seperate.
I would love to see the video about Ralsei! He is so suspicious. A darkner but could move through different dark world without being in our inventory, and not turning to stone? Or the fact that he is the only other character excluding Jevil and Spamton that know about game mechanichs? Or even more, all his suspicious behavior with brushing off the Spamton encounter and seemingly wanting to talk to Kris without the players knowledge when we pan to Susie? Ralsei being an annagram for Asriel? It's all so intresting!! I'd love to hear your take on all of this. And great video by the way!
Thank you very much! And I agree, Ralsei is a fascinating character. I have a pretty crazy theory regarding what he is, one that I haven't seen anyone else suggest yet, so I hope I get around to making that video! I'd love to share my thoughts with y'all! :D
Deltarune being an Alternate Reality doesn't mean that cannot have similarities to Undertale, sure, they might have different rules and stuff, but it could be more like a parallel universes where both Undertale and Deltarune co-exists with having similarities between each other, but also having their own differences.
Sure. Alternate Realities are very versatile in fiction. I'm simply going with Occam's Razor on this one: I assume that the simpler explanation is more probable. Saying "let's introduce a brand-new concept like Alternate Realities" isn't as simple as "let's use a concept we've already used before like Alternate Timelines." But that's just me. What's probable may not be what's true, naturally.
24:33 ive also seen a theory ablut gerson having been injected with determination in a controlled way, instead of the overdose given the amalgamates and thats why he is so old. If monsters were never sealed underground the detrrmination experiments wouldve never happened
I think it’s more of a separate universe because Toby came with the idea of deltarune first and the “coincidences” could be taken as references or as AU’s works in community it haves enough things in common but enough things to be its own thing and maybe the Asriel video game not having all deltarunes character can be because hey he’s a teenager he can’t just copy the entire town because to much work and could make his game a bit boring,well thanks for reading this (for whoever does it)
I believe it's an alternate reality with (just as Toby said) connections to Undertale, which would both explain the similarities and differences. Like a mix of both if you will.
I don't get why unlikely similarities count as a strike against it being an alternate reality. It's not uncommon to have two separate universes have characters who are counterparts to each other in fiction. One of the most common types of parallel universes in fiction is a universe inhabited entirely by counterparts of characters in the primary reality of the world the work takes place in. There's a theoretically infinite amount of realities out there; I don't see a reason why Toby Fox would have to, or even should, pick one with few if any parallels to Undertale for his Undertale follow up.
Not sure if anyone else has suggested this but what if the Underground in Undertale was a giant dark world? It would explain why magic existed there, it could potentially explain what was behind the locked door and/or in the inaccessible castle in Undertale, a Dark Fountain. There’s probably holes in that theory though, feel free to point them out.
That theory has been suggested, and it's definitely interesting! I think there are a few issues, namely the lack of Darkners in the underground, but it would be interesting if it was true!
31:13 chara is familiar with all of asriels powers because they probably role played like it at some point because the narrator can also name all the atttacks that happen (maybe chara can read minds like how the narrator in deltarune was recently confirmed to be able to do) so maybe asriel just had the same oc which works for either side au or ar
The narrator is just Toby (Bc there's no real consistency in narration style in Undertale, nor in Deltarune. A person on YT analyzed all the narration and has proof)
I feel like the alternate timeline theory can explain the lack of magic in deltarune's light world. In the intro of undertale, it was explained that human magic users sealed the barrier, and there's no evidence (that I know of) that shows magic is used in the modern world in undertale. I think it could be a lost art, like greek fire or mechanical computers.
Something I noticed is the fact that I'm Undertale monster souls are stated to necessarily have kindness and empathy unlike human souls in undertale, Susie at the begging of the game breaks this rule. Another thing is that monsters in Deltarune can have determination which is something that they couldn't do in Undertale
I don’t really understand why we only have two options.. like, it’s either an alternate timeline, or an alternate reality. Maybe there are other possibilities, or perhaps our perceived assumptions of how such concepts work aren’t accurate to the way that Toby may envision them… I dunno, I feel like were making too many assumptions here.
Something that could also be a possibility is that gaster created the alternative reality of deltarune, but him being from undertale, he keeps many things and changes some
While I watched this video, an idea popped into my head. What if the letters in Ice-E's "catchphrase" _stood_ for something? Maybe his catchphrase ends up revealing some huge plot points in _Undertale._ Also, what if the _Deltarune_ version of his catchphrase had one single word changed, and it ends up giving the phrase a completely different meaning?
@@JaruJaruJ I think it's better off that way. The longer the catchphrase, the harder it would be for the player to catch on too early. (It might end up being extremely on-the-nose. Imagine if the first few letters stand for, “Gaster is a…”) I'm also 100% convinced that Ice-E might have some relation to Dark Worlds, however. Their business looks way too shady.
Another thing that might support the timeline theory about Gerson, is that in Undertale when the player tries threatning him in the genocide run, he knows the player cannot attack him. Could it be that he is not a boss monster, but instead knows that he cannot die inside the NPC shop area? This certainly would explain why he still looks like a very old monster in undertale, despite seemingly not having a family.
When you said we've never seen Determination used to make a void fountain in Undertale, my brain instantly went to "Dark, darker, yet darker..." With all the Gaster connections that we've seen so far, I wonder if his disappearance was linked to them somehow...
Thank you! The next video is going to be discussing when I think DELTARUNE takes place on the timeline, as well as answering the question of "Who is Kris?" But after THAT video I will be working on my "What Happened To DELTARUNE's Magic?" video, and I'm very excited for it! :D
31:17 THANK YOU for saying this. this theory has a lot of holes in the first place, but i mostly have problems with it from a meta standpoint. a "gotcha nothing in undertale was ever real" would really be a dick move and not fitting
My theory is that Deltarune is the Alternate Reality where Monsters won the war. It's a half-baked theory to be sure, but seeing all of the monsters around the world of Deltarune and there are no other humans (so far) besides Kris suggests to me that humans are somewhat rare in this world. Maybe because they were wiped out in the war?
I think deltarune is probably an alternate timeline not an alternate universe since it seems like the monsters have no magic proof : Toriel's oven having different text and noelle after leaving the dark world saying "I wish I could use healing magic in real life" so she could heal her dad and that the monsters were never trapped underground as proof that the war either never happened or ended in peace also it would explain why frisk and Chara aren't in the game cause Chara and other kids never fell into mount ebbot (Toriel probably adopted Kris)
There is a third option an alternate reality that came into existence as a creation of someone or something in undertale’s universe. In this way you could have almost no similarities between the two but have a direct connection in their history that they do share.
Very true! I am working off the assumption that no Omega Flowey or Mega God of Death or any similar entity is actively controlling/reshaping the timeline. If that is the case, then all bets are off and anything is possible.
Regarding Mew Mew and Alphys' differing tastes between games, I think we need to consider the environment both versions of the character were raised in. In Undertale, Alphys pretty much spent her entire life in the underground. She hasn't any idea of what life on the surface is like, if her interest are anything to go by. She also would have to deal with the existential dread of being forever trapped underground, a sentiment shared by most other monsters it seems. They would all speak about how good life used to be and how miserable they are in this prison, which I'm sure would do some psychological damage to our young scientist. Thus she finds Mew Mew 1, a lighthearted slice of life comedy, a perfect escape from the anguish of her stagnant, hopeless life. Mew Mew 2, a darker and edgier iteration, would only serve to remind her of how dark life is, and her revoltion at the show is a reflection of her attempts to shut out any reminders of the fate of monster kind. Mew mew 1 is the only thing keeping her spark alive in a desperate situation. Wheras in Deltarune, she IS out on the surface. She IS free to live her full life. She's surrounded by monsters who likewise have never even known of the war, and would similarly be optimistic about their lot in life. Only where do we see Alphys in this new world? She's still the same dorky, socially awkward, anime consumed mess she was in the first game. Despite having everything going for her in this new world, Despite all the opportunities that are open, she still winds up in the garbage in the alleys. Alphys belives that the world she lives in isn't all its cracked up to be, only this time there is no greener grass on the other side to believe in. So of course she would gravitate to a darker and edgier Mew mew 2. Because it reaffirms her belief that life isn't fair, while simultaneously she reviles Mew mew 1 because it shows people enjoying life in a way she'll never get to. Of course the real tragedy of it is that all Alphys needs to come out of her shell and make a name for herself is a little helping hand from someone else. Someone like you. In one world, she got that helping hand. In this one, she hasn't. Atleast so far.
i feel like alot of the talk about the similarites with deltarune and undertale and them being seperate timelines have to do with character details and personal relations, they are substantial, and you keep bringing up points about it but i feel like that was the first thing that was shown to us, this being a seperate story told with the same characters, and with deltarune being toby fox's first idea before undertale, i dont see him limiting himself when it comes to the frame that having undertale as a seperate timeline sets, because looking at it through the lense of it being an alternate timeline tells us ALOT (not that it telling us alot is a bad thing, im honestly an alternate timeline believer but theres parts that make me picky ab it) like i feel like alot of the evidence that piles up is just stuff we can end up assuming from chapter 1 , but the way these worlds actually work, the save points which were so important in undertale, and determination, which seemingly has nothing to do with saving now? seems to be completely different, as monsters can have determination without "falling down" as seen with queen trying to make noelle into a knight, im definetly leaning towards it being an alternate timeline but the fact that everytime you save the text box says your filled with some sort of "power" urks me because of just how powerful determination was in undertale, it could practically do anything , with enough determination chara took over frisk, and we, the player take over kris, ig my main point is its hard to know the difference between them with what we have, and given how substantial these forces seem to be in both games its difficult to fully be in one branch, it seems undertale is a good lense to look at in SOME cases but deltarune is not going to be afraid to be its own world, with its own seperate rules, which is why i feel looking at it as an alternate timeline sort of limits it in a way that contradicts what it does address about the meta aspects that were in undertale (determination ((and now power))) and how they differ ((srry ab the yap this is more for just for me to get my thoughts out lol))
if undertale and deltarune ARE both alternate timelines and the rules from undertale can be used to dictate the rules in deltarune, does every monster have the ability to persist after death?
This video was EXCELLENT you brought up a lot of logical points and blew my mind with a few things you said one I'd them with the boss monster discussion and how Father Alvin is Gearson's son. Please make more Deltarune vids!! ❤
everyone is writing their own theories so I'll write mine: undertale is a night story the very first music on the soundtrack is once upon a time the last is called good night I refuse to elaborate further
Im just gonna say this,thank you so much ofr making this video,i needed this to understand both games,it is really interesting,and literally no body make this! the proof you show i think its very accurate (i seen in the comments that just a bit of information was needed to make things more clear) but i really loved the overall of the video!
Everything here is very well defined but I've spotted a really crucial hole in a lot of the reasoning in regards to this debate. Ignoring Undertale completely for a sec, the Dark World in Deltarune is, by your own definition, an "Alternate Reality" to the Light World, right? And yet, the Kris and Susie we follow in the Dark World are explicitly the same characters we follow in the Light World. So, using similarities between characters and events between characters and events in Undertale and Deltarune as evidence against the Alternate Reality theory is failing to account for the possibilty that characters can jup BETWEEN said realities. One hole in this theory is, of course, that none of the characters for either game recall the events of the other, but also the presence of the phrase "don't forget" in both games makes that feel significantly more intentional. Gerson, however. Yeah, I can't explain that. I want this theory to work but DAMN YOU GERSON.
I really appreciate the work you put into helping people to understand what you mean by vaguely talking about movies! My mom introduced to the movie back to the future, to me since I was young, and it's one of our favorite movies! (We also love the sequels)
I think the magic is a little explainable. In Undertale humans sealed the monsters underground WITH magic. But, then they lost the ability to use magic (probably for not needing it after the war.) The monsters then heavily rely on magic to survive down there. In deltarune, with the monsters being on the surface with advancing technology and things, they wouldn’t need to rely on magic that much and slowly lose the ability in an evolution process.
Interesting theory! My thoughts: The barrier the humans created to seal the monsters is rather unclear in its origin. It's so powerful that it requires a GOD to destroy, and you need special soul power to pass through. That SEEMS to imply that it was created through the power of Determination. This is supported by the fact that the books in the monster library outright state that humans can't use magic. However, the ancient runes and intro refer to what the humans did as using a "magic spell" to create the barrier. As such, whether the barrier was created through magic or Determination is unclear. So, while it is possible that humans used magic and then lost it, it's definitely unclear exactly how the rules of that work. Your interpretation is definitely valid though! This part I'm less certain on. Evolution takes a REALLY long time to make meaningful changes, and I don't think a few centuries or even a few thousand years would be long enough for the monsters to completely lose access to their magic. Even humans don't change that much in a few thousand years, and monsters live much longer than us and have children much less often. You could be right that they lost their magic as a result of not using it, but I think it would have to be explained from a different angle other than evolution. Either way, thank you for the comment!
I feel incredibly stupid right now. I always assumed gerson lived so long because he was a turtle. How the hell did I never think "oh maybe he's a boss monster". I'm so stupid. Also,I do hope you make more deltarune/undertale stuff,this video was great and I'd like to hear what you have to say about other things.
Thank you very much! I definitely intend to make more! And don't feel stupid! I could totally be wrong about Gerson. He may just be a variety of monster that lives a long time. Nothing wrong with thinking that. x)
My favorite idea for this came from the Comic, Paper Trail. Is Deltarune an Undertale where the humans _lost_ the war to monsters and the bunker is simply the humans’ version of the Underground?
That is a very interesting interpretation! I personally have my doubts, as it doesn't really feel in-character for the monsters to imprison humanity like that, but it would be very interesting to see how Toby Fox would handle a role-reversal like that.
@@JaruJaruJ It’s a cool comic. I’d recommend reading it, as they had predicted early on the addition of Noelle to the Party, the ability to bring items to other dark worlds, and the dichotomy between Kris and The Player.
Two theories I thought of while watching this, which could apply to reality and timeline theories, respectively: 1. Magic doesn't exist; humans aren't as threatened by monsters, but it doesn't necessarily mean humans like monsters still, explaining the town not having humans (excluding Kris, who is similar to the fallen human/Chara). 2. The timeline split involves magic being stopped/controlled; it's the same timeline up until where the war would occur, but either through the monsters defeat or negotiations, magic is no longer allowed/isn't possible. This could be done either through destroying/containing something, or just no longer using it by law and it being forgotten.
Those are some very good theories! I've actually written a script where I discuss what I think happened to DELTARUNE's magic, which I hope to make some day, and your theories are thinking along very similar lines to myself!
Another thing I've noticed that might apply to an alternative reality is the possibility of monsters being formed slightly differently. We know Sans is from somewhere different, and he's the only character that bleeds (unless it is ketchup-) before turning into dust off-screen. I doubt Sans is from Deltarune, however, it could be a hint towards other "worlds" having different rules.
Just a little mini theory that could explain the absence of magic in Deltarune. I imagine the divergent part of the alternate timeline is the war between humans and monsters. In Undertale and Deltarune it's explained in both libraries (and Ralsei/Flowey) that souls are the culmination of one's being. Perhaps monsters have magic in their souls but have never needed to manifest said magic. In a world where the war ended or never happened, magic to heal or attack was never developed as a survival skill. Or was slowly forgotten and abandoned. But perhaps it's a teachable skill that monsters have deep within their souls. I give the example of Ralsei teaching Susie healing magic. We have yet to see her use this magic in the light world, but if she does end up using this spell she's learned in the light world in future chapters, it could give this mini theory some real ground to stand on.
My thoughts on the "Final boss" having rainbow wings thing: The god of Hyperdeath form asriel takes is probably formed from his imagination, so it would make sense for the game to have a powerful final boss with rainbow wings.
I mean the abilities literally sound like something he would have come up with when designing his game. The only problem with this theory is that the creation of the boss monster would have had to predate both DR and UT to exist in both timelines, and since Asriel must have been born after the timeline split, that's not plausible
@@bookswithbek2702 if the god of hyperdeath exists both in DR on Asriel's computer and in UT as manifested by Asriel, then it means that Asriel must have had the idea for it before the original timeline diverged into the UT and DR timelines. However since Asriel was born after the war started, and the war started on the UT timeline after the timeline split into two, there's no sensible explanation for how both versions of Asriel have the same idea since they are not branching versions of any "original timeline" Asriel
Im assuming gerson had alvin back in undertale, which is why he was old. but alvin was probably killed by a human, which is why Gerson stopped aging and he’s so wary of frisk.
I just wish people would actually have more facts then theories and I see THIS is NOT a common thing to go directly to certain dimensions in person to have more in depth information.
I'm glad to hear. It's hard to work up the energy to make these things, especially given how long they run. But seeing people comment and have discussion makes it worth it. x)
@@JaruJaruJ BTW one small thing I want to ask. Under the definitions provided in this video of reality & timelines where would a parellel universe go under. Granted parellel universes themselves do alter in fiction. Some times they are universes with a shared history, and other times they will have fundimentally different histories but still have universal counterparts to people and rules making them parellel.
It really just depends on the fiction. Some series treat alternate timelines like they're parallel universes, while others treat alternate timelines as all existing in the same universe. For example, in UNDERTALE, when Frisk resets the timeline or Loads a Save File, they are switching between timelines. However, the game does not treat this as jumping to a parallel universe. It treats all the UNDERTALE timelines as existing in the same universe. Same with stuff like Back to the Future. By contrast, something like Doctor Who treats alternate timelines as being in a completely separate universe. When the Doctor travels through time, he's traveling up and down the same, singular timeline in a single universe. He can change the past, but it doesn't create a new timeline. It just alters the existing timeline. Terms like "parallel universe" are difficult to pin down due to them being a fictional concept. What it specifically means will vary from series to series.
Great video. Just one thing though that stood out to me by the end. We have discussed alternate realities in undertale and deltarune. Both Chara and the references to You. Our own reality is registered in the ut/dr universes as an alternate reality. Chara says 'to destroy this world and move on to the next'. That sounds more like a whole reality than a different timeline, as restarting doesn't satisfy her. There has been much speculation that the next is that of deltarune instead. The fact that deltarune and undertale are different exe files is generally considered different 'worlds' or 'realities' by this fan-theory. In Deltarune you have 3 save files, but they are all within the same game. Meanwhile in UT you only have 1. Looking at the metanarrative of the game, this is significant, as the save function is considered to be a soul mechanic. Although you could paint this as Kris (or You) being exceptionally powerful, as we can see in Omega Flowey fight there being possibly dozens of save files. Is your determination stronger in DR than UT because of the comparative lack of magic/determination around you? Doubtful, as it could be argued that Kris doesn't have strong determination based on save text, instead being like the other coloured human souls that died in ut? (they seem to have the power of shining, whatever that means, as that's the one recurring word). It is unclear, but it's a fundamental world difference. Personally, I think that it is a hybrid combination of the two. You may ask how can it be both an alternate reality as well as an alternate timeline? It's a different game, but made by the same creator who wanted to tell a different story and use similar aspects. A god created the two worlds, so to speak. I believe there will be a connection through parallels, and Your connection to the two realities as a bridging point, but as Toby himself said, there will be no way to alter what has occurred in the other game. But as for how it's also an alternate timeline: I think the monsters won in dr version of the world, but at the cost of their magic, and the humans were almost completely wiped out as a result. If time was altered so that the events of Undertale occurred instead, you'd have a nearly identical world, monsters could do magic and the underground and everything - so would that make deltarune purely an alternate timeline? I argue not entirely, because the game mechanics: Party fighting, having 3 save files, a TP bar! All these things would remain part of that timeline, and that makes it fundamentally different in a way I can't ignore. And even if it was, it being a different exe file and the meta element being such a strong storytelling element - I just can't say it is the same reality. Sorry I rambled a bit, I love this series so it's exciting to theorize about it! Looking forward to your next one!
Fair. It may be that Chara was referring to alternate realities. We don't really know for certain, of course, but I agree that it would make sense if that's what Chara was referring to. Then again, if Chara had moved on to another reality, then why do they notice the player hanging out in UNDERTALE after the Genocide run? If they were in a completely different reality, how and why would they notice that the player was hanging out in UNDERTALE wishing for the game to come back? Seems strange. The meta stuff regarding save files is interesting, but I feel like you could also explain the multiple save files as just being a result of the two games having different design philosophies. UNDERTALE was all about living with the consequences of your actions, and having multiple save files would undermine that. By contrast, DELTARUNE's theme is that your choices don't matter, and thus having multiple save files doesn't alter that your choices don't meaningfully change anything. Furthermore, having multiple save files makes exploring the game's secrets easier, so maybe Toby added that in order to improve upon UNDERTALE, where exploring different playthroughs was a much more tedious process. It could also be a meta-storytelling device, like you said, but there might be alternate interpretations as well. I should point out that while the Dark World has party fighting and a TP bar, the Light World seems to continue to use the standard UNDERTALE menus and UI. This could be implying that the two timelines share the same fundamental rules, and it's just Dark Worlds that have special attributes. Something to think about. Regardless, thank you very much for the lengthy comment and the kind words! I love seeing people's different interpretations of UNDERTALE and DELTARUNE, so feel free to ramble in my comment section whenever you please. x)
oh- I thought you'd have more than 1000 subscribers considering the quality of the videos- my guy, you've earned yourself a subscriber. Its sad how some of the best youtubers are the smallest.
in a diferent timeline, where monsters were NOT trapped underground, they would possibly loose they culture, just like humans don't use magic in that world anymore. monsters wouldn't either
Well this timeline explanation now makes sense as to why nobody has ever interacted with time travelers before. If someone did, the world would branch into a completely different timeline separate from ours, one in which someone has interacted with time travellers before.
Without hearing your explanation and theory, my first thoughts about what the swatchling says in the Power of Neo section were that he was referring to the creature with rainbow wings on Asriel's computer. I feel both that and Metaton Neo's body could fit the description the Swatchling gives, and the description of the rainbow wing creature sort of fits what Spamton Neo looks like, but the shared name Neo makes me think it is more likely Metaton's body. Maybe Asriel's creature and Metaton's body were combined somehow? I don't know, just something to think about
You have to remember, the cyber world is only in the library, how would it have access to something in Asriel's computer? It is most definitively Mtt's body, spamton even has a line about spantom EX, which is yet another thing related to Mtt
I like to think this is a timeline where the war never happened, or they stopped the war and now humans and monster coexists in the surface, Kris was an orphan who feels more comfortable being with monsters than humans, that's why they are in a town where we don't see any other human
Ey, yo, I know I'm a bit late to the game but I feel like if this were an alt-timeline, a lot of these characters just wouldn't have been born because the implied timeline divergence happened way too early.
I think DR is UTs story being run backwards. The first area in the Dark World you enter is like (spoilers) the destroyed remnants of a No Mercy run in UT. The second chapter is technology, kinda like Mettaton and the CORE combined. There will be only ONE ending because UT only had ONE starting point for all timelines and AUs.
Fun Fact: You're great and these videos are probably the best Theories about Deltarune out there. We're fine if it takes long until a new video releases. Take your time, the quality of these Videos is more than enough and we appreciate it!
I really like how he explains these things slowly and thoroughly without needless and convoluted words/information. It makes it a lot easier to understand and he does it without being condescending or annoying, it’s not beating the horse at all!
Awesome theory, man! Very well researched and I hope we get to see your other theories as well. You just got a new subscriber c: Also I wanna point out that I also really enjoy reading the discussions in the comments under this video. Very insightful stuff!
I am almost certain deltarune and undertale are alternate realities, but exist within the same meta-universe. Sans in deltarune is definitely the same sans as in undertale.
One thing to add to the Sans question, is that the only reference to Ice-E is explicitly from Sans. He was the one who put the word search as a puzzle for us. Which might have been a 4th wall break, giving us a head-scratcher that we'd be incapable of solving with our scope. It also fits Sans' character trait of "maximum effect with minimal effort" by creating such a trick by literally just taking a child's restaurant placemat and just sitting it in front of us and calling it a 'puzzle'.
May I propose a full theory to you? Here we go... Personally, I think that the song that plays on the date with Sans "it's raining somewhere else" might be referring to the goners not existing. I'd like to think that Toby's original idea during development was Sans is a Gaster Follower, or is Gaster. Because of the face-vailue evidence that he's a scientist that can look at time-line readings and do mysterious things through time and space. On top of that he and Alphies, the current royal scientist know each other. If fact, in a neutral route, she becomes the leader of the underground, saying that thanks to San's help she's slowly rebuilding the UG calling Sans "a good man". Alphies first thought that the amalgamates were "goners". Since the goners are grey variations of normal characters like monster kid, glam girl, guy from the restaurant who's too embarrassed to leave, spider donut guy and others, we can assume that Alphies already knew about the goners before her DT experiments. And another fact is that Sans and pap are monsters that just appear out of nowhere, in a secluded underground with a magical barrier around it that ONLY allows people to enter, not leave. But they couldn't have passed through the ruins, since they would have had to cut through Torie's house to get through. But Toriel Sans have never met before, Implying that they must have came from Hotland to snowdin town. But Papyrus says over the phone that he has never been to Hotland. Gaster is confirmed to have "fallen into his creation" assuming that means The Core, but Sans has a strange machine in his basement that can't be fixed. It's so important that Toby even had to address it saying that even in the best possible ending it still couldn't be fixed. In that same room are the people who we don't recognize. I theorize it's the Goners. If I had to guess, I would say that the machine is some kind of artificially made "true reset" button. Since no one outside of Gaster Followers remember that he even exists with Alphies as the current Royal Scientist, it might have been that Gaster accidentally destroyed his own time-line, turning it into a sort of AU with alternate versions of everyone with only slight differences. If he could have successfully fixed the machine, he could have theoretically have true-reseted to before the human monster war and stopped it, making an even better ending than the true pacifists ending. Only everyone would obviously have small differences like the goners. Evectivly making DELTARUNE not an AU where the HxM war didn't happen, but one where the machine was fixed. Possibly even turning some undertale characters into goners. With goners being echoes of their old selves, like how sometimes characters remember old runs. Tori remembering the pie you like, Sans knowing about the GR, exc. exc. But taken to new levels. Though I don't know about that last part. That may just be my head cannon for what the goners are. So the TL;DR is I think that DELTARUNE is an AU, where the machine was fixed, changing a carbon copy of Undertale through time-travle mechanics into a different time-line where the human monster war just, didn't happen. And Kris' story in game is might be related but also might be complely unrelated to the state of the world his story takes place in.
@@piccolofan24 Well thanks. 😊 Though that is just my interpretation of his original idea, since he has all the plot set-up in the world to be revealed as Gaster. But it's also possible there Toby changed his mind later in development or after release with updates. And that's fine too. Whatever he has in mind, I really hope he explores it to the fullest. :)
I’ve personally think the connection between Undertale and Deltarune it’s like the connection between TLoZ: Ocarina of Time, and TLoZ: Majora‘s Mask (sans the member of one world going to the other, unless you count, well, Sans). Two worlds that are eerily similar, with seemingly the same or similar people existing in both, and yet have very distinct, and possibly mutually exclusive histories.
Ok I know I am very late into the brainrot, and I just dove into it so I might be way off but something tickles me about this question. Do we know that these two possibilities are the only two possibilities? From my perspective, there could be a 'multiverse' theory somewhat different from the Alternate Reality/timeline dilemma. Undertale already indulged itself in insinuating that different playthrough contributes to the overall narrative/meta-narrative (With how flowey knows we can SAVE, how Sans knows we have some power to always retry, the way Frisk`s eyes blink red after a genocide then pacifist run). This is where I might be wrong since I am unaware of what is canon and what is not if it is even a relevant question in the first place. The way some characters are aware that the character the player incarnates in-game is capable of things others can`t, those not so subtle 4th wall taps every now and then. I posit the idea of a multiverse; any possible playthrough DID occur. I don`t know, I might just be going cuckoo, hadn`t dove into Deltarune since yesterday and let`s just say, I haven`t had a lot of sleep. I need to rewatch this, thanks and cheers!
A multiverse could circumvent the limitations presented by alternate reality/alternate timeline. It could offer universes with different laws, rules, magic and power while still having characters that share a very similar upbringing. I don`t think I'm doing a good job at explaining what I believe, and I doubt this comment will even be read but yea.
I'm getting recommended more and more less viewed Deltarune videos 👀 Edit: Regarding the apparent lack of magic: In Undertale afaik humans lost knowledge of magic, monsters, soul and the whole jazz; therefore I think monsters not knowing about magic isn't that much of an unlikely scenario even in an alternative timeline in the same reality, for example if the roles of humans and monsters after the war were switched (with some changes obviously, but if all humans and monsters lived together in harmony you'd think there'd be more humans in town than just one or that other humans were at least mentioned apart beyond a book on caring for humans)
I'm glad! I'm getting far more support for this video than I ever expected! :D And yeah, you make a fair point regarding the humans forgetting about monsters and magic and such. However, humans live much shorter lives than monsters, and it seems like the monsters were sealed underground for potentially thousands of years. As such, it makes a decent amount of sense that humanity would forget all this. On the other hand, characters like Gerson and Asgore have been alive since the war, so it seems unlikely that they and the other long-lived monsters would just forget about magic. Especially considering how integral magic is to a monster's life and biology. Still, I see what you're saying, and the idea of the humans being sealed underground instead is rather interesting. As for the humans not being particularly numerous in the Hometown, it is odd. But I could also seem them making some random comment explaining it away. Maybe humans are still afraid of monsters, or maybe monsters chose to isolate themselves due to humans being so much more powerful than them. Hard to say. I'm sure we'll get some hint about this in future chapters though.
I feel like Deltarune being an alternate timeline is correct not only because of all of the points in the video, but it would also make the fact that Gaster seems to be more prominent in Deltarune make more sense
You make a very good point! If the monsters were never sealed underground, then Gaster would have no reason to make the CORE, which means he shouldn't be shattered, which means he SHOULD still be an active player in DELTARUNE's world. Exciting!
Yeah I feel as though the role of gaster in deltarune was not only downplayed but downright ignored, I mean yeah there's very little we actually know about him for certain, but even in the first 2 chapters of the game that we have not there have been some, well, pretty heavy handed implications that he has a substantial influence over the deltarune world, or at least the dark world, now these could all just be one big red herring but given sans implied relationship to gaster in undertale it wouldnt surprise me if figuring out sans and gasters role in deltarune will be critical in understanding the plot as a whole and how it connects to undertale
@@jlewwis1995 I've got some theories I'm working on regarding the plot of DELTARUNE, and I have my suspicions regarding what role Gaster plays in all this. But I'd be lying if I knew exactly what his endgame is. We never really knew what he wanted in UNDERTALE, so figuring out what he wants in DELTARUNE is a very daunting task.
spamton neo having wings kinda looks similar to what the asriel's computer describes "raindow wings" that also supports the evidence of a "lightner" creating something with hope , idk about the rests of the details but thats all i can figure out
That's a fair theory. I'm not entirely sure how Asriel creating NEO would make sense for either timeline, but I suppose that is a valid interpretation of all this. Maybe Asriel had a vision of the future and saw that Spamton NEO was the final boss (sometimes) in Chapter 2 of DELTARUNE. Certainly an interesting angle!
I think gaster is Toby fox Toby is outside time and space in the undertale and deltarune world You don’t know what “gaster” name is or what he looks like Sorry for bad English, just trying to get the theory out there
I thought it was pretty obvious that Deltarune was a alternate timeline, bit I don't know, everything could be possible. Also, I loved that the Sans part was in Comic Sans, it's a neat detail, and great video too!
The rainbow wings on the computer still make me keep my hunch. My persisting theory is the knight manipulated Asriel into opening the grand dark fountain before the beginning of deltarune, Asriel's motivation being to help Kris make friends, when he went through the dark world he created the NEO body.
Interesting. I'm not sure how Asriel would create the NEO body, considering it was made by Alphys in UNDERTALE, but the rest of your theory makes a lot of sense. Definitely a valid possibility! Thank you for the comment!
I haven't got far in this video, but I DO love that, no matter which you pick, both have awful fonts chosen for them haha Thank you for that, it honestly made me happy
I know I'm late to this discussion and you may even touch on it later in the video, I'm just at the part where you talk about Toby's comments on the discussion. My take, having yet to get round to playing Deltarune Chapter 2, is that the Genocide run of Undertale may have set up the possibility of something seperate from both an alternate timeline or alternate universe. When Chara talks directly with the player, the player is given the option to rebuild the world once it is destroyed completely in order to replay the game. On a second Genocide run, Chara gives this option again, but suggests going down a different path, whether out of boredom or whatever else. It seems that the player, as an entity mostly seperate but tied to the actions of both Frisk and Chara, has the godlike ability to reset the world as they desire (and in a meta sense they literally do). Another detail to note, however, is that when Chara asks if you want to destroy the world, it appears that we refuse and Chara says "Who ever said you were the one in control?" This, to me, implies that Chara, at least with the power you have given them through the Genocide route, has some ability themselves to erase or reset the world. Given this, and how the ending of Deltarune Chapter 2 directly references completing a pacifist run of Undertale after a Genocide run, it feels to me like Chara, for whatever reason, reset the world after many different times through Undertale's story in order to experience things in a new way. If this is the case, it is functionally different to an alternate universe or timeline, as the universe is created by an entity living within it. This means that even if this new world shares a different ruleset and history from the previous one, its similarities to the previous one are bound to the entity who brought it into existence. The ruleset itself could be different, but the fact that there is an entity who's consciousness reaches further out than the mundane world around them and is able, with enough power, to manipulate, mutate or completely erase and rewrite its existence stays true.
What if deltarune is a prequel to undertale, where in the end of deltarune it will be set up for a giant dark fountain that engulfs the whole town is created, and everything goes into the status of undertale, where everyone has magic and the characters are as they are.
About Gerson potentially just aging naturally due to Deltarune taking place further than Undertale, Monster Kid being older can support that.
True, true.
also older fire girl
It may seem like support but it's just ironic, they are all different entities, this is literally it's own unique AU.
@@peacesyll Kris could be an alternate version of Chara who didn't die (because no war) and they grew up from a toddler into a teenager. Asriel is older too, temmie seems to be older too.
@@peacesyll Huh I missed that good pick.
15 mins in and my respect for toby just grow higher and higher
If all my video does is make Toby Fox look good, then it was a successful video indeed! xD
It's amazing any artist, for most of the time they seem to be capturing real genuine worlds and never know it and thats what is so crazy and mysterious about it all
i think the strongest theory in my head is the idea of this being an alternate timeline due to the war never happening, as to why? its rather simple, no one knows what souls are capable of.
in UNDERTALE, the motive for the humans attacking is made clear, they were scared of how powerful monsters could get with one human soul, and theres a book in the librarby that explains everything about both types of souls, making it clear that this stuff is well researched.
however in deltarune the opposite is clearly obvious on the second floor, where a book details the opposite, where souls are pretty much unknown.
i personally think its easy to believe that the lack of research done on the souls abilities could have kept the war from happening entirely, spiraling into deltarune.
*alternate timeline i am a idiot when it comes to words
Oooo! That is a fantastic line of logic! Maybe whoever was responsible for studying souls in the UNDERTALE timeline never did that research in the DELTARUNE timeline? Very interesting. That is an awesome theory my man!
@@JaruJaruJ thanks a lot man, i feel like the reasoning for the war starting in the first place is rather overlooked within the community. which it really shouldn’t be considering how important it is.
@@JaruJaruJ maybe Gaster is the one who figured the soul stuff out and that’s why he’s so cryptically woven through everything? 🤔
@@charlieb8735 Quite possibly! Gaster very clearly plays an important role in all this, but it's quite trickyto figure out what role he plays.
I would say the similarities are convergent rather than coincidence, since coincidence makes it sound like pure random chance and that is by no means possible with such similar games. An alternate reality can be very similar in terms of characters while having completely different worlds that work in different ways since it is, in it's real life form, a re-imagining.
Yeah, from a meta standpoint, you're right. Toby Fox made both games, so it's objectively not random chance in the real world. But within the universe of DELTARUNE, it would be explained as just coincidence IF it really is a completely disconnected alternate reality. Of course, this is all fiction that we're talking about, so it's possible that we're dealing with some version of alternate realities/timelines that Toby Fox invented. Anything it technically possible.
@@JaruJaruJ I like to think that alternate realities should be viewed in the same light as AUs in the Undertale community. In the Undertale fandom, AUs or Alternate Universes are regarded as universes that modify Undertale to make something new. Examples include Underswap, Underfell, Humantale, etc. ATs or Alternate Timelines, on the other hand, take the events of Undertale and change them without changing established facts about the original game. Examples of these would include Aftertale, Dreemurr Reborn, Chronotale, and Floweypot. AUs are by definition alternate realities because laws and established facts can differ between universes. For example, it would be extremely hard to get Underswap just by changing the events of Undertale with swaps like Flowey and the temmies. You’d have to somehow create a bunch of Floweys without killing Asriel because he is alive and takes the place of Monster Kid. You’d also have to get rid of all the Temmies except for one without having this Temmie or anybody else remember that there were other Temmies to begin with, all while also somehow managing to stuff a dead Monster Kid into the Temmie. And that’s for ONE SWAP. Thing is, Underswap is still very similar to Undertale. The only difference is that the main characters swap places. That being said, in this case alternate realities are allowed to be similar to each other without being classified as alternate timelines instead. It’s very possible that Toby Fox doesn’t want the connection of Deltarune and Undertale to be like the connection to the Undertale AUs, but there are still definitely enough similarities to consider. Assuming they all exist in the same multiverse, similarities between Deltarune and Undertale WOULD be explained as Deltarune being a reimagined version of Undertale in universe.
@@JaruJaruJ It doesn't have to canonically be coincidence. Especially with similar religions existing, it seems likely that their worlds were created by some sort of deity or magical force, not just the culmination of natural forces coming together like ours. It's perfectly reasonable for two connected worlds to be created to be similar. I don't think we have strong evidence for either theory when you consider how much context we're missing, especially with Deltarune not being nearly complete.
a lot of this theory seems to hinge on the idea that two alternate realities can only be similar by "coincidence" but i dont really agree with that. in media its *very* common for two alternate realities to have many similarities. even in the example you gave, spiderverse, the peter parker of miles' universe and peter b. parker are incredibly similar. in comics in general, the concept of alternate universes with only slight differences is very common. its possible that deltarune and undertale are two alternate realities that are somehow running parallel to each other and have some connections through means other than a branching timeline
To be clear, I know DELTARUNE could totally be an Alternate Reality and not an Alternate Timeline. That's why I used terms like "probable" and "unlikely" and other similar phrases. If two realities are extremely similar, then Occam's Razor would incline me to think it's an Alternate Timeline, but what's simplest isn't always what's true. Anything is possible in an Alternate Reality, which means that it is entirely possible for an Alternate Reality to be extremely similar to another reality. There's no way for me to prove that DELTARUNE is NOT an Alternate Reality, because an Alternate Reality can be ANYTHING, and thus it will always be on the table as a possibility. I'm not ruling it out. I'm just saying that the simplest explanation for two separate realities being similar is that they're Alternate Timelines, as that instantly explains the similarities without any more explanation being needed.
Both options are still on the table until such time as one or the other gets proven to be correct. No doubt about that.
@@JaruJaruJ I agree with greyson Rose, your point where you state that the characters life situations being almost identical to Undertale despite the very different background and setting is evidence for being an alternate timeline, when it's actually the opposite! An Alternate Reality having everyone be in similar situations despite different setting is completely normal and expected - everyone filling the same roles as in the original reality, but in a new context. Meanwhile in an alternate timeline you expect the exact opposite, peoples lives and events naturally diverge even if their core personality stays the same, because life isn't deterministic.
@@Dorsidwarf I generally agree (although I'm thinking Deltarune's world probably isn't just due to Toby Fox wanting it to be like Undertale for thematic reasons and having come up with Deltarune first thanks to the dream he had), but in Deltarune, things are presented more than ever as though they are... Well, largely, deterministic, with the player being a possible exception of sorts, and Spamton hoping the three can sever "their own strings", although if the game has a separate ending I'd only excepct it from the Weird Route, but okay I got a bit off-track, point is, a better argument can be made in Deltarune than in Undertale that those characters can't actually control their fate... Why that'd result in them being remixed versions of another universe's set of characters isn't explained by that, though.
@Potato "Unlikely" to be used, not "unlikely" to exist. Sure, all alternate realities are equally as likely to exist as the other, but really, what AR do you think Toby will use for Deltarune. Undertale but sans decides to stand one pixel to the left in Waterfall? Or a world where magic doesn't exist and the monsters are above ground?
We're thinking possibilities. A world that is exactly the same with only context being different is much more likely to be an alternate timeline in Toby's eyes than not. An alternate reality that is not actually much different from the original is a mockery of the word, nobody would understand why you didn't just call it another timeline in a fandom like UT.
It also unnecessarily tears away connection between the characters and the player. You're presenting the exact same product, and saying it is not. That would be unnecessarily frustrating for fans, even for just civil discussion, so I doubt Toby would pull something like that. We also have to think about the meta and real life implications on some of the directions he could take. If he is going to make an alternate reality, he's gonna make sure people have a reason to call it so beyond a tweet clarifying this to some fan. He wants to make a good, interesting game after all. There must be a VERY good reason he is being quiet about this being an AR or AT, most likely a twist that would only work if the AT is similar enough or the AR is fundamentally different.
I wonder if magic does exist in Deltarune and has been forgotten or locked away. It makes sense, though, that that one variable -- magic not existing in monsters or humans -- would change the entire history. Because if that was the case, then humans wouldn't be worried about monsters absorbing their souls, therefore the war never started, etc. On the other hand, I think monsters are still made of magic. The bunny kid living in an apartment asks Kris if it hurts being made of blood. So I'm thinking magic does exist, and monsters simply never discovered that capability, or only exists as "occult" magic like it does in our world. And for whatever reason, magic as we knew it in Undertale -- bullet patterns, healing magic, etc -- DOES exist in the Dark World. Or maybe the Dark World unlocks that latent capability in monsters, since Kris can't do it.
You make some excellent observation! I've noticed a lot of what you just mentioned, and I have a pretty big theory regarding what happened to DETLARUNE's magic. I just hope I end up determined enough to make a video discussing my theory! xD
Magic technically exists everywhere, just it's easier for some people and some states then others and dependent on few things.
It's possible that magic was just weaker by the time of deltarune
Humans have gotten overall weaker so magic could be weaker and weaker due to monsters not needing to fight and arnt in as hostile environment as in Undertale
There's also something else to think about...
Why's kris the only human in town?
Where did the other humans go?
I love how you play "Detemination" when talking about Determination.
Yep! xD
@@JaruJaruJ
a few points which you missed talking about determination is that it is required to open dark fountains
which could be done by both monsters and humans and it is be easily to do
and with less determination since berdley was about to do it and queen was trying to use noelle to do it
and neither had any side effects associated with monster having to much determination
but undye faced the consequences of having to much.
also that determination is NOT being used to turn back time but a different power which has 3 save slots and can copy the save slots
why would determination be used to open dark fountains but NOT be used in much more advanced uses of time travel ?
i think that power of light/shining or what you want you call it shows that it may not be another timeline due to this...
Personally, I would love to believe that DR is an alternate timeline, but I don't think it's very possible.
First tho, I have an objection to your talk about magic. Catti talks about teaching Noelle protective spells. Magic is a thing in DR, just as in UT. Noelle just doesn't know these spells. There could be many reasons, magic has either been forgotten and is less accessible, or might have been altered by an in universe event that weakened it in the light world. It's impossible to say at this moment, but it definitely both exists and monsters are aware of it. Susie doesn't question it at all (Red/Rude Buster), nor does Noelle seem to be suprised by you expecting her to know how to cast spells (Ice Shock). Even Beardly is never called out for using tornadoes and flight (which with his body would require magic), as if Noelle and Susie expected him to be capable of that.
As for dead monster, I think you left out some of the more important parts, that being some of the amalgamates not being present at the cemetary. The only ones we see there, are Crystal - Snowdrake's mother, Muttler - Endogeny and Shyra - Shyrin's sister. An aaron, a woshua and a moldbygg are missing from the Lemon Bread. Two Vegetoids from Snowdreak's mom's head are missing. Entirety of Reaper Bird is missing (Important to note, as that's UT's appearance of Everyman).
Also Beardly is of note, as he does not turn to dust. This can however be explained, as when Papyrus' body dies, it already turns into dust, yet Beardly's arm doesn't in neutral run. It can be assumed that Beardly might have been made brain dead but alive, or alternatively, might be fallen. A term from UT, describing monsters when they are about to die of natural causes.
Gerson is probably dead, because DT would have to be set a bit in the future (Monster Kid and Susie were Frisk's age in UT). I personally doubt Garson is a boss monster. He loves to tell stories. He'd mention it when he talks about boss monsters. I think he's this old simply because he's a tortoise-like monster. He probably just has an extremely long life expectancy. Father Alvin is pretty old, yet he is a preacher. While Angelism differs from Christianity in some ways (Alvin says that the concept of sin is not present in Angelism), monster kid wears a christian cross. It can probably be assumed that Angelism shares most similarities with Christianity, with only the controversial topics being removed for the sake of diversity. Therefor, I doubt Alvin has any hatchlings of his own.
I wouldn't really consider Ice-E for either theory, as I think it's definitely likely that Sans might have gotten it from DT. I don't personally believe he's from there, but that one is a solid theory, so Ice-E has a walk around. It doesn't make much sense for a Freddy Fazbear's parody to have been built before the war, or to be identical despite completely different circumstances.
Rudy IS in Undertale. He is dead tho. You should read the Alarm clock cancelled app. It's canon and shows that Rudy used to be Asgore's friend long ago. The little house in the background of Snowdin was his and the little character going outside, is a decedent of either Noelle or December.
Also, in DT we see TERRY, not JERRY. Jerry is of light dirty-yellowish color. They are different (Probably related tho). We do not know the relation between Asriel and Terry. It's possible Jerry might be a troll of sorts, making a pathetic character based on a popular resident of his town.
I personally don't think that DT and UT are a natural connection multiverally. What do I mean? I think it is either a timeline, that has been tempered with by an outside force (let's face it, it would most definitely be Gaster), or a parallel universe. Why do I think so? Well, see there is an awful lot of coincidences in both possibilities. Why are people born the same thought different timelines? Sans implies monsters reproduce in a similar manner to animals. If a baby was to be conceived a month earlier or later, then it would be completely different. Yeah, egg cells do choose sperm cells research has recently found, but due to menstruation, egg cells themselves would be replaced every so often. Not to mention all the likely alterations to the sperm deposit in each person. To have all these people have identical lineages for centuries (Yes, the war was centuries ago. Yellow soul's gun is described as an antique in UT), is a giant coincidence, seeing as timeline split would butterfly effect most of it.
Also, it really can't be a different timeline, because of Holiday family. While Dreemurs could have lived this long for many reasons, perhaps Asriel in DT is actually not the same Asriel, but rather a younger sibling of a dead original Asriel, explaining why Asgore and Toriel stopped aging, there is nothing like that for Holidays. They are regular monsters who have been there with Asgore and Toriel on their wedding. Yet, they died of old age a long time before UT. At least Asgore implies that Noelle and December have grown and are of very different age to Susie and Monster Kid. This makes me think that DT's universe was either chosen based on it's coincidental similarities, or is a timeline, altered to have the same lineages, as well as having Holidays and Dreemurs be born at a later point in life.
Either way, whichever kind of universe it is storywise, it's definitely treated as an alternate timeline of the meta standpoint. Even if we learn that Monsters don't turn into dust, for example, Toby still uses parallels with that story (And Gaster and Chara are most likely the same ones from UT). So, we should definitely use UT as evidence, no matter what level of multiverse houses their worlds.
First of all, thank you for the lengthy comment! I'm glad to see people getting invested in this discussion. I'll go ahead and give my thoughts one by one.
Regarding magic in DELTARUNE, Catti is the only person in the Light World to bring up the concept of magic and take it seriously. Nobody else is seen discussing magic, and not a single person is seen using magic. By contrast, we see Toriel use magic within seconds of starting up UNDERTALE. As such, given that Catti is the only one who discusses magic, I interpret this to mean that magic in DELTARUNE is treated the same way people treat magic in the real world. Nobody actually believes in it, and only random niche parts of society, like goth teenagers, actually believe in it. I think Toby gave those lines about magic to Catti, a moody teenager, specifically to show that nobody mature or serious believes in magic in this world. We see Toriel doesn't clean her oven with fire magic, nobody heals Rudy with healing magic, nobody is seen wielding energy weapons like Undyne's Spear or Asgore's Trident, and when Kris tried to look up guides on how to use magic, all he could find was books on magic tricks. If magic existed in this world, wouldn't Kris be able to find books discussing real magic, and not just magic tricks? It is interesting that the monsters take to wielding magic so easily in the Dark World, but I don't think that's a result of them already knowing about magic. I think they just assumed it was a quirk of the Dark World. Otherwise, why don't we see Noelle, Beardly, or Susie using magic in the Light World?
Fair point regarding the Dead Monsters. I guess my theory regarding that is that, in UNDERTALE, Asgore ruled over all the monsters, and so when he called for bodies to be brought in, he was able to acquire bodies from all over monster society. By contrast, in DELTARUNE, the monsters are all living aboveground, and thus a lot of monsters probably don't live in the Hometown. A lot of them probably moved away to other cities. As such, if that's the case, then those other dead monsters would be buried in other cities. Or at least, that's how I would explain this if DELTARUNE was an alternate timeline. If DELTARUNE is an alternate universe, then it could just be that those monsters aren't dead in this timeline. Either way, thank you for bringing this to my attention. I definitely should have discussed this in the video. My bad.
Gerson might not be a boss monster. The tortoise-theory is definitely a valid interpretation. Also, I realize now there was a mistake in my script. I could have sworn that Alvin mentioned Gerson having grandkids, but looking back now I realize he does not mention that. He says that Gerson had "children," implying that Father Alvin has siblings, but it doesn't outright confirm that Gerson had grandkids. That was a mistake on my part. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
I think the fact that Ice-E has a different catchphrase in UNDERTALE than he does in DELTARUNE proves that, wherever Sans got that word search from, it wasn't from the same reality as DELTARUNE. And while it is quite possible that Sans got it from another universe, it's also possible that this crossword just floated down from the human world.
I had NO idea about this Alarm Clock thing! Thank you for bringing this to my attention! Wow! This was really fun to read. Thankfully my point about Rudy not being in UNDERTALE is still true, as he was only brought up in this Alarm Clock thing, and not in the main game. My main goal with that comparison was to point out the flaws in the "Asriel created UNDERTALE" theory. I always suspected that Rudy existed in UNDERTALE at some point. I just wasn't sure when he showed up, or when he died. So, thankfully, my point still stands, despite my ignorance of this Alarm Clock App. Thank you for this info though!
Yeah, I accidentally called Jerry/Terry the wrong name. I only noticed my mistake after recording the video, so it was too late to fix it. I thought about pointing out my mistake in the video, but I figured nobody would notice. I was mistaken. xD
You make some interesting points regarding the Holidays. The tricky part is that this Alarm Clock App is implied to have occurred some time after the events of UNDERTALE, and Asgore says Rudy's daughters "get to grow up in the sunlight," implying Noelle and December were still kids at the time of this Alarm App. He also isn't specific regarding when Rudy died. He just says "one day he fell down." For all we know, Rudy died just a short time before Frisk came to the underground. Or maybe Rudy was alive during the events of UNDERTALE, and the Alarm Clock App takes place several years later. It's possible that DELTARUNE Rudy managed to live longer thanks to not living underground, and having access to more advanced medical technology. Hard to say. Either way, I don't think this info disproves the alternate timeline theory. The info we have regarding UNDERTALE Rudy and his family is just vague enough that we can still make it work.
Regardless, thank you for the lengthy comment and all the helpful info! I really appreciate it. x)
@@JaruJaruJ You're very welcome! I had a ton of unsheared thoughts on the topic, as I've genuinely not seen anyone else making a video on this except you, with most people assuming one of the two and not questioning it. I was happy to see an actual discussion about this, so I might have just spilled all my thoughts on it in that comment... Oops! Well, here are some of my responses to your responses:
As for the magic, I can see your points. I'd consider it explicitly ambiguous, just as the line about how rules "might" be different. I, however, personally lean more so towards magic existing, just being replaced by technology, as I don't see Noelle particularly being the kind of person who, if she was a human in our world, would get into these things. Also, there is the fact that Toriel (Whom Ralsei has many parallels to), specifically explains it frisk in UT should be of note, as Ralsei seems to assume that Kris (Or player, depending which Ralsei theory one goes with), knows about it. So, as I said, I can see both, but I think magic going out of use is more likely, probably due to technological advancements. Remember, that Mettaton says robots are made out of Magic and metal. Gaster's machine (whether it's DT extractor or the core) also had to have been pretty magical if it was able to give him power to be aware of it being a game (Yes, I think since Jevil says "darker, yet darker", it's pretty much objective that Gaster is the mysterious figure who has driven him mad). Therefor, if on the surface monsters and humans live in somewhat harmony (probably separated, but not on war terms. There are human care books for monsters afterall), I think it's safe to assume that their electronic tech might have replaced magic. Tho, once again, I can see both possibilities being true.
As for the dead monsters, yeah, I suppose they could have just been taken to Alphys from different areas of the underground. Or maybe be of different faiths, with separate cemeteries (I know Jews bury their dead separate from christian cemeteries, not sure about atheists and other religions tho). One nitpick tho, you sound as if you thought amalgamates were made from dead monsters? They weren't dead, just fallen. It's the term we learn in Snowdin books, True Lab logs and source code. Monsters in UT don't really get sick naturally (Implying Rudy's condition might be special, if that rule applies to DR). They only die when killed, injured, or of old age. In the latter case, an old monsters stops moving and is consider "Fallen". That's what many believe Beardly is in Snowgrave. Amalgamates were created from fallen monsters. That's also what Rudy experienced in UT, according to Asgore.
Yeah, you're right about the different Ice-E catchphrase. Tho, I think it's important to note that it has a FUN event, with all other ones indeed relating to Gaster and timeline shenanigans, so there is likely more to this puzzle. It's only fitting for a FNaF reference to contain cryptic storytelling.
Sorry if I misunderstood you about Terry. I thought you considered him to be Jerry, because you showed him as one of the "returning characters".
You're right about that Noelle and Dess are actually implied to be young during UT itself. Had to have misremembered that one. Well, it's still interesting to note that, as Yellow soul's gun is an antique and Asgore has been the king before that point, Rudy would have then been extremely old in UT. He's even considered fallen, meaning he died of old age. I guess since he and Asgore both went to collage together, that means Reindeer monsters lives similarly long to Garson? Or I guess maybe Rudy is a Boss monster too and didn't have children for a long time... Either way, I suppose this part of the alarm clock debunks the idea of Asgore being the goat in opening of UT, huh? I suppose the horns are different anyways. Well, still Holidays and Dreemurs don't seem ancient in DT, so the question of how they can be of normal age in DT if it's a natural timeline stands.
Also, one more thing that I forgot to talk about, I think it's important to note how DT might be hinting at some of its multiverse's nature through references to other video games? While I don't think these references by any means should be considered hard evidence, UT already used references to literature for it's mysteries (There is that one Asian novella referenced in royal guards fight, for example), a newer game, like DT, might use other video games. Tho perhaps that's just my bias to other ones and it's a stupid theory. I do admit this one is quite a stretch. Think about it, what are the most prominent video game references in DT? Starfox, with Beardly's dark world design clearly being inspired by Falco (I think there was a referance to wave dashing there, so, yeah...), Yoshi and therefor Mario, through two whole references to "The Lizard", with both Smash and either SMW, SMBW, or SMBU (2D platformer with ridable yoshis) and FNaF with Ice-E's and Purple Guy (maybe nightmare too, but that's weaker). There's others, but Beardly is a whole character, Ice-E is connected to FUN and The Lizard is mention two whooping times. Looking at these franchises, Both Mario and Starfox operate on static time travel, meaning that traveling back in time doesn't create a new timeline, but rather, happens through every run of the time continuum (At least that's how it is in Mario & Luigi: Partners in time. Not sure about Star Fox Adventure, but I have been told so). This means that the timeline split would not have been due to time travel. Then, FNaF has it's different universe - The original Novels (the new books are complicated now, so I'm just mentioning the original trilogy) - which are pretty important productions, as they were written by the main author, unlike something like Super Mario cartoons, or Star Fox manga. In FNaF, the two main universes work by being timelines.
No worries! I'm quite glad that my video managed to discuss something that nobody else had addressed yet.
The magic in DELTARUNE is extremely fascinating, and there's a lot of small details and evidence to pour over. The video I'm most excited to make is my "What Happened to DELTARUNE's Magic?" video, so I hope I work up the energy to make that video someday.
No worries, I get the difference between "Fallen Down" and dead. I just used the words interchangeably in this video since the distinction wasn't too important for the points I was making.
You make a very good point regarding the FUN event. UNDERTALE Ice-E is weirdly mysterious.
No worries about Terry/Jerry. It was indeed a mistake on my part.
I think what's puzzling you about Rudy is that you're assuming that since Rudy and Asgore went to college together that they must be the same age, and I don't think that's the case. I think Asgore didn't go to college until a college was finally built in Hotland. Plenty of people go to college when they're older after all, and if Asgore is as ancient as I think he is, then he's probably been around since before colleges existed. Asgore even mentions that he was "There for it all. His youth. His marriage. His fatherhood." If Asgore was "there for it all," that would imply that he was alive before Rudy and was present for Rudy's entire life. This, in my opinion, implies that Asgore predates Rudy by quite a large margin. I think that's why they bring up that Rudy called Asgore "big man" his whole life. Asgore was his elder for as long as he knew him. Or at least, I think that's what's being implied here.
The idea of an UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE multiverse is certainly an interesting one. There's certainly groundwork there if Toby wanted to go in that direction, although I think it's too early to say if that's what his end goal is. That said, I do actually have a small theory that might tie in to the idea of a multiverse. Remember how Ralsei's prophecy mentions "AT WORLDS' EDGE" in his prophecy? Well, it might be significant that Toby chose to use the word "worlds'". If he had used the word "world's," that would make sense, as there's only one world being discussed here: Earth. But, he used "worlds'," which is the plural form. This could imply that, whenever the prophecy passes, multiple worlds will be in danger. This might just be referring to the Light and Dark Worlds, but it could also be referring to Alternate Realities/Timelines. Just a little detail that I haven't seen many people discuss. I've thought about making a short video just discussing that one word from the prophecy, just because I found it so interesting. Regardless, you could totally use that as potential evidence for your multiverse theory if you wanted to. xD
@@JaruJaruJ Oh, that magic video sounds like a great idea! Good luck with it!
You might be right about UT Rudy. I suppose he indeed is never referenced to as Asgore's peer. Tho Dreemurs still are a bit of a mystery in DT, since if I remember correctly, Rudy is outright confirmed to be Asgore's age there. But I guess it can be explained with Goats' particular aging. Perhaps monster lineages are consistent no matter the time child is made and some of Toriel and Asgore's ancestors could have lived longer and taken off some centuries from the current pair.
I really like the idea of the Roaring being an outright type 3/4 multiversal thereat! Really interesting theory.
No, it's actually just another AU and there are many different ones.
So, there's a lot of talk about the knight, and I have had a theory that got a lot of people thinking. I think it may interest you too? What if Dess is the knight? They're a character we haven't seen we know they have history in this world and that they disappeared, they could be anywhere at any point, perhaps travelling the Dark world, and maybe they possess the powers to open fountains from within the darkworld itself? Which may be who we hear in the code of Deltarune that's trapped. Just a weird theory of mine.
Very interesting! I hadn't considered that. Man, there's so many interesting theories regarding the identity of the Knight! I love hearing them all. :D
Didn’t chapter two confirm that kris is the knight
@@darkmatter9643 knowing Toby, I think Kris opening the fountain is a red herring. One, it’s too early in the game for the knight’s identity to be revealed like that. Two, it seems WAY too obvious, people were guessing Kris is the knight even in chapter 1 because they’re literally a knight in the dark world, and the weird Chara-ish behavior.
Way, way too obvious.
@@empiar5481 plus, Kris only opens a fountain after hearing Queen explain how the Knight opened portal and saying any Lightener can open a fountain with determination!
@@blakeprice8243 Furthermore, Kris couldn't have possibly opened the cyber world fountain because we were controlling them at the time. We know that the fountain was opened while Noel and Berdly were in the computer lab when the fountain opened because 1. They think that they are in a dream, and 2. Their books are already out on the table after the fountain was closed.
I honestly think DR can be either an alternate timelin or an alternate reality, because there are endless alternate realities/universes which means that every possible combination is in one of the alternate realities/universes.
For example: There is an alternate reality/universe where papyrus has a blue scarf just because he liked blue more than red, but there is also an alternate timeline where he has a blue scarf because something happened to the red one.
In both of these scenarios papyrus has a blue scarf and to figure out why we have to know how it happened.
You could very well be right! We don't know exactly how the UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE multiverse works as of yet. Some fictions have endless alternate realities, but some fictions have finite quantities of alternate realities. So even if DELTARUNE is an alternate reality, it's hard to say what that means or how that works in the greater cosmology of this franchise.
@@JaruJaruJ Me and the boys discussing the shape of the Undertale multiverse (Its dog-shaped)
There’s something you forgot: Humans could once use magic too. After all, it’s implied that human mages sealed the underground and created the barrier, not monsters. But in the time since, humans seemed to have forgotten how to use magic. Since this might be a universe where the war never happened, maybe both monsters and humans forgot how to use magic over time.
I have a small theory: The Roaring happened before. I don’t truly know the details, but I like to believe it’s the reason why the underground exists.
Very possible! If the Roaring happened before, that would definitely explain how Ralsei knows about it.
@@JaruJaruJ and it would also explain the room that Kris lands in the beginning of the dark world labeled "??????", which had the eye symbols around it that the Titans have on their (armor?)
Imagine if The Roaring is just turning the world of Deltarune into the World of Undertale.
The first 13 minutes of this video felt like a school lesson, but one on an actually interesting topic.
Hey, that's not too bad! Thank you for the kind words! :D
I don't see how it is possible for the monsters to grow up in such different circumstances to be the same people in an alternate timeline. It makes more sense as an alternate reality
I'd like to point out that Toriel actually uses her stove in Deltarune, but in Undertale she uses fire magic instead which acts as evidence that magic doesn't exist in Deltarune.
Also I want to say that just because many things are "coincidentally" the same in an alternate reality doesn't mean that it the chance for that happening is low. There could be an infinite amount of alternate realities and Toby Fox simply showed us one that has many similarities to Undertale but enough differences to be its own game.
I am hoping though it is an alternate timeline as I think it'd be super cool to see how a divergence in a timeline could change so much and being able to connect Undertale and Deltarune is fun.
Toby Fox did make a tweet however saying that he's glad people are starting to see Deltarune as its own thing and not just looking at it in relation to Undertale, so we'll see how this goes.
Just wanted to quickly mention, if you say "I don't know" in one of Mettaton's quiz questions, Alphys actually says explicitly alternate universes exist. I'm still in limbo regarding my own stance here but just thought I'd bring that up in case nobody else has yet.
Interesting. I did not know that! That said, we don't know if she's actually talking about what we would call an "Alternate Reality." It's possible she's actually referring to the Alternate Timelines, which it would make sense for her to study, as we know Alternate Timelines are all tied up with the Determination that she has dedicated most of her research to.
@@JaruJaruJ yes because there are really big differences between alternate realities, alternate universes and, alternate timelines, an example being the from marvel, The 9 realms are alternate dimensions but they all exist in the same universe, being universe 616, but in comparison the what if Marvel Zombies takes place in a completely different universe, and in Avengers 2012 and Endgame and the Loki series, when Loki escapes with the Tesseract that is a separate timeline from the original one when he’s taken to prison on Asgard, but they both take place in the MCU universe. I hope this explanation helps :)
i think a neat explanation to why there is no magic in deltarune, when there is in undertale, could be that instead of the war concluding in the monster being trapped underground, they instead were made to give up their magic. i dont think it'd be too much of a leap in logic that if humans could make a powerful barrier to trap them, they couldnt also have done something to conceal the monsters magic instead
That is definitely quite possible!
There's also parallel Universes, which could be the exact same characters(in terms of personality and behavior) but put into a different context, where the timeline has no similarities, but the characters match, basic concept of character arcs have similarities, sometimes with differences for the sake of the new story being told, and sometimes some rules are changed, whilst others stay the same.
why this isn't a post-pacifist timeline (as example): Asriel is alive, and Undyne doesn't know Alphys. if it were a timeline where Frisk saved the Underground, Asriel could not be alive. he can't return from death, or be in his goat form forever, as stated by him in the pacifist ending. and Undyne should obviously know Alphys.
DELTARUNE can be either:
>a timeline that splitted before Asriel's death, and somehow monsters freed themselves... hmm;
>a timeline where the war never happened and etc;
>an alternate universe/reality.
Correct! You have rightly analyzed the situation! It's also possible that something really wacky is going on. Like maybe DELTARUNE is a video game in the world of UNDERTALE, for example. But assuming nothing crazy like that is happening, I agree with your assessment.
@@JaruJaruJ :)
@@JaruJaruJ There has been a theory going around that it's the other way around, that Undertale is a video game created by Asriel in the deltarune universe.
It mostly stems from Asriel having files on his computer about a game concept he made as a little kid including a poorly drawn bit of artwork of a final boss with rainbow wings, an obvious reference to his boss fight.
Definitely an interesting theory, even if I don't think that's the direction Toby is going to go.
Asriel lied to the player actually he still has the souls let me tell an example you have a power of something you use that power it wont fade away right? Plus before the special thanks you will see asriel getting in phase 1 saying "haha you think you are done? , i mean did you forget the special thanks" how the heck is the able to turn back to his infinite power and infinite defense form as he says he lost the souls and also he is already using phase 1 and he has infinite defense and atk before he says hes using a small fraction of his real power that you cant even check and before you go to the bed of flowers and find him he actually teleported there since nobody even saw him and when he was omega flowey before you get to spare him him or kill him he loses the souls and becomes to a normal flower in seconds and his true from is made of every monster soul in the underground when he shatters the barrier he uses them actually why wouldnt everyone die or dissapear so asriel is lying this is now confirmed
I'm amazingly late to the party. I just played Ch. 2 for the first time, and it's still stuck in my brain. I loved this video, it did a great job exploring a topic that I've been thinking very hard about!
However, no one here seems to be pointing out how Asriel's age poses a big problem for the alternate timeline theory. In Undertale, Asriel was born decades, if not centuries before the start of the game. Yet, in Hometown, he's just a few years older than the other Undertale characters. True, Asriel's never shown on screen, but there's plenty of textual evidence that he's both 1. the same character and 2. only about 18 years old in Deltarune.
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I would like to point out that determination seems to work differently in deltarune than it did in undertale, in undertale it can only be generated by humans under normal circumstances and when to much of it interacts with monsters they turn into goop, this obviously is not how it works in deltarune because the entire plot of chapter 2 is basically just queen trying to make one of the lightners create another dark fountain and it seems to only require determination and something to stab the ground with and berdly is literally about to create one by the end of the chapter
You make a fair point, but I think the evidence we have is too vague at this point to confirm it. In UNDERTALE both monsters and humans could generate at least some amount of Determination, and we don't know how much is needed to create a Dark Fountain. It's possible that even a small amount of Determination inside of a monster is sufficient. However, we also never see a monster create a Dark Fountain. Queen thinks a monster can, but she states herself that she was just guessing this would work based off what the Knight did. She had no idea about the Roaring or anything else, so I'm inclined to think she's not an authority on how Determination works or anything like that.
@JaruJaruJ than we have to keep in mind that *somebody* opened the fountain. But who? If we need a lot of determination than it had to have been a human and kris's is the only human in town. so unless either kris's opened the fountain or there's some hidden human in town, the night *must* be a monster. if that is the case that means either a: monsters have more determination in this timeline. Or b: you don't need a lot of determination to open a fountain.
@@thumbsup8985 True!
@@thumbsup8985 a crazy thing could also be that it's maybe either frisk or chara. We don't know where they are or of they eve exist. It seems kinda like kris is a combination of them but i think that wouldn't make too much sense
In Undertale, Asriel says he uses everyone's determination, including the monsters, to break the barrier, and Undyne staves off death all on her own, though of course she melts once she's killed again and very likely would have after killing you anyway, but monsters definitely have their own determination,. The thing was that it not only seemed insignificant compared to humans', but we also knew their bodies could not handle it properly one way or the other, so it's only really relevant in the sense that if one of them got absurdly determined, manually, let's say, then they could pull an Undyne, but now things are different... Was the not actually innate (well, kinda, it's probably only there as much as one is actually determined, I mean like, regardless of their soul, whereas humans appear to just have a bunch of it within their soul naturally) amount that monsters had enough to hypothetically make a Dark Fountain, though? I couldn't say... It'd make sense if no, but I also wouldn't call it a stretch if it could.
Great video :) I’ve never really thought about the differences between alt realities and alt timelines
Thank you very much! I'm glad my video was thought provoking. x)
Time for one...alt time is just that, but another world entirely is very different in people living there and sometimes other things too.
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Maybe you'll get to this, but I feel like there's kind of a halfway point, which is parallel universes/dimensions, where they are within the same multiverse, so they share the same, like, laws of nature and physics, and characters may even be considered alternative versions of one another, but are differentiated my more factors than simply "X happened at this point, instead of Y."
Sentinels of the Multiverse is an example of this. There are different universes, all of which are separate universes, but not necessarily just alternate timelines (i.e. there's a universe where everything is animals, and there's one where all the heroes are villains and vice versa. There's an XTREME universe, a Telenovela-verse (well, not anymore, but... well, I digress). None of these have shared pasts, so they don't fit the definition of "Alternate Timeline" as proposed at the beginning of the video, but they also aren't completely isolated and distinct like Star Wars is from, say, Harry Potter or All Quiet on the Western Front.
They're part of the same continuity, just not the same reality.
Another example is JoJo, which features an entirely different universe from Part 7 onward, but it isn't just the result of different decisions being made. It's just fundamentally different... except it's still JoJo, and characters are still analogous to characters from earlier parts. Johnny Joestar is Johnathan. Diego Brando is Dio. Kei Nijimura is simultaneously Keicho Nijimura AND Jotaro Kujo, somehow.
And THAT'S where I think Deltarune falls. Not necessarily as simple as "Undertale, but a different thing happened," but also not as cut and dry as "it's completely separated, any similarities are completely coincidental."
Because I am not sure I agree that the only 2 options are "they are exactly the same" and "NOTHING is the same." As you point out, there is evidence for both sides, which would seem to be an utter impossibility.
Like, it is outright stated that Lightners possess Determination, which means that this is at least one way in which physics itself is different from Undertale. So, it can't just be a simple alternate timeline.
But at the same time, just from a storytelling perspective, there is no reason to make all these characters be the exact SAME PEOPLE but then be like "oh no they're actually not even related to the same people in Undertale. They just happen to look, sound, and act exactly like them." In all but the most pedantic sense of the word, that means they're the same damn people. Just different versions of them.
So, I think it's pretty obviously an alternate universe, but with the asterisk that the definition proposed at the start of the video is flawed, and this particular TYPE of alternate universe is kind of halfway between the two definitions.
17:35
yeah, see, I don't think that's a point against it being an alternate reality, I think that's a point against your definition of alternate reality being the correct one
I completley agree with you.
There are even two points of evidence which would go completely against Deltarune being in an alternate timeline from Undertale.
1. Would be which you have already pointet out, that in Deltarune all Lightners (both humans and monsters) seem to inherently possess Determination, which in Undertale is not the case. While in Undertale both humans and monsters can use the power Determination, only humans inherent to it and it cans seriously mess a monster up if it uses too much of it, as seen with Undyne the Undying in Undertale's Genocide run.
2. Would be which JaruJaruJ has actually pointed out in his video that magic doesn't seem to exist in Deltarune's Light World, when in Undertale magic is something that definitley does exist.
JaruJaruJ's definition of alternate universe/reality would be somethign I would describe as a "seperate universe/reality".
I think alternate universes/realities generally have some similarities and connections to their original univeres/reality where as a seperate universe/reality would be as the name suggests completley seperate.
I would love to see the video about Ralsei! He is so suspicious. A darkner but could move through different dark world without being in our inventory, and not turning to stone? Or the fact that he is the only other character excluding Jevil and Spamton that know about game mechanichs? Or even more, all his suspicious behavior with brushing off the Spamton encounter and seemingly wanting to talk to Kris without the players knowledge when we pan to Susie? Ralsei being an annagram for Asriel? It's all so intresting!! I'd love to hear your take on all of this.
And great video by the way!
Thank you very much! And I agree, Ralsei is a fascinating character. I have a pretty crazy theory regarding what he is, one that I haven't seen anyone else suggest yet, so I hope I get around to making that video! I'd love to share my thoughts with y'all! :D
@@JaruJaruJ Well, if you ever have the time to make that video I'm definitely gonna watch it! I love hearing theories about this litttle guy : D
Turning to stone MIGHT happen, it doesn't always happen
@@rosegacha8 why "might"? In the actual game they say that this will happen, not that it might happen.
Deltarune being an Alternate Reality doesn't mean that cannot have similarities to Undertale, sure, they might have different rules and stuff, but it could be more like a parallel universes where both Undertale and Deltarune co-exists with having similarities between each other, but also having their own differences.
Sure. Alternate Realities are very versatile in fiction. I'm simply going with Occam's Razor on this one: I assume that the simpler explanation is more probable. Saying "let's introduce a brand-new concept like Alternate Realities" isn't as simple as "let's use a concept we've already used before like Alternate Timelines." But that's just me. What's probable may not be what's true, naturally.
24:33 ive also seen a theory ablut gerson having been injected with determination in a controlled way, instead of the overdose given the amalgamates and thats why he is so old. If monsters were never sealed underground the detrrmination experiments wouldve never happened
Gerson living for an absurdly long amount of time makes sense, because he's a turtle, and turtles can live for over 100 years.
I think it’s more of a separate universe because Toby came with the idea of deltarune first and the “coincidences” could be taken as references or as AU’s works in community it haves enough things in common but enough things to be its own thing and maybe the Asriel video game not having all deltarunes character can be because hey he’s a teenager he can’t just copy the entire town because to much work and could make his game a bit boring,well thanks for reading this (for whoever does it)
I believe it's an alternate reality with (just as Toby said) connections to Undertale, which would both explain the similarities and differences. Like a mix of both if you will.
I don't get why unlikely similarities count as a strike against it being an alternate reality. It's not uncommon to have two separate universes have characters who are counterparts to each other in fiction. One of the most common types of parallel universes in fiction is a universe inhabited entirely by counterparts of characters in the primary reality of the world the work takes place in. There's a theoretically infinite amount of realities out there; I don't see a reason why Toby Fox would have to, or even should, pick one with few if any parallels to Undertale for his Undertale follow up.
Not sure if anyone else has suggested this but what if the Underground in Undertale was a giant dark world? It would explain why magic existed there, it could potentially explain what was behind the locked door and/or in the inaccessible castle in Undertale, a Dark Fountain.
There’s probably holes in that theory though, feel free to point them out.
That theory has been suggested, and it's definitely interesting! I think there are a few issues, namely the lack of Darkners in the underground, but it would be interesting if it was true!
ending this with THE music box was absolute perfect
I'm glad you liked it. x)
31:13 chara is familiar with all of asriels powers because they probably role played like it at some point because the narrator can also name all the atttacks that happen (maybe chara can read minds like how the narrator in deltarune was recently confirmed to be able to do) so maybe asriel just had the same oc which works for either side au or ar
The narrator is just Toby
(Bc there's no real consistency in narration style in Undertale, nor in Deltarune. A person on YT analyzed all the narration and has proof)
I feel like the alternate timeline theory can explain the lack of magic in deltarune's light world. In the intro of undertale, it was explained that human magic users sealed the barrier, and there's no evidence (that I know of) that shows magic is used in the modern world in undertale. I think it could be a lost art, like greek fire or mechanical computers.
Something I noticed is the fact that I'm Undertale monster souls are stated to necessarily have kindness and empathy unlike human souls in undertale, Susie at the begging of the game breaks this rule. Another thing is that monsters in Deltarune can have determination which is something that they couldn't do in Undertale
@@trappedcosmos I think monsters do have determination just not very much in undertale? Like they have souls but not very strong onrs
@@artemis_173 From what we know other than Undyne monsters have no determination
This video made me do 7 spittakes. This is absolutely amazing, and put together so well. Definitely subscribing. Thank you for this content
Thank you very much for the kind words and support! :D
21:32 I mean... you don't need a soul to have determination in Undertale, Flowey doesn't have one
I don’t really understand why we only have two options.. like, it’s either an alternate timeline, or an alternate reality.
Maybe there are other possibilities, or perhaps our perceived assumptions of how such concepts work aren’t accurate to the way that Toby may envision them… I dunno, I feel like were making too many assumptions here.
the undyne text at 32:18 fucking decimated me
Extremely good and thorough examination, excited for the other videos!
Thank you very much! :D
Something that could also be a possibility is that gaster created the alternative reality of deltarune, but him being from undertale, he keeps many things and changes some
True, true. This being an artificial reality is also a possibility.
While I watched this video, an idea popped into my head. What if the letters in Ice-E's "catchphrase" _stood_ for something? Maybe his catchphrase ends up revealing some huge plot points in _Undertale._
Also, what if the _Deltarune_ version of his catchphrase had one single word changed, and it ends up giving the phrase a completely different meaning?
That would be quite interesting! I'd love for that to turn out to be the case. What it could mean, I have no idea.
@@JaruJaruJ I think it's better off that way. The longer the catchphrase, the harder it would be for the player to catch on too early. (It might end up being extremely on-the-nose. Imagine if the first few letters stand for, “Gaster is a…”)
I'm also 100% convinced that Ice-E might have some relation to Dark Worlds, however. Their business looks way too shady.
Hey! I really like your videos, dude. I came from my personal enby god of undertale and deltarune icebergs, to this channel, and I really do love it.
Thanks! I'm glad you're having a good time. x)
@@JaruJaruJ I am! seriously can't wait for the new chapters to release so I can't watch another video like this ^^
Another thing that might support the timeline theory about Gerson, is that in Undertale when the player tries threatning him in the genocide run, he knows the player cannot attack him. Could it be that he is not a boss monster, but instead knows that he cannot die inside the NPC shop area? This certainly would explain why he still looks like a very old monster in undertale, despite seemingly not having a family.
Would also explain why he does not leave the underground at the end of the game.
When you said we've never seen Determination used to make a void fountain in Undertale, my brain instantly went to "Dark, darker, yet darker..."
With all the Gaster connections that we've seen so far, I wonder if his disappearance was linked to them somehow...
Great video, I’m excited to see when you finish a video about the true meaning of deltarune’s story and the lack of magic.
Thank you! The next video is going to be discussing when I think DELTARUNE takes place on the timeline, as well as answering the question of "Who is Kris?" But after THAT video I will be working on my "What Happened To DELTARUNE's Magic?" video, and I'm very excited for it! :D
31:17 THANK YOU for saying this. this theory has a lot of holes in the first place, but i mostly have problems with it from a meta standpoint. a "gotcha nothing in undertale was ever real" would really be a dick move and not fitting
Wow it's been a long time, can't wait to see more of your future videos.
Thanks man. Good to be back. x)
My theory is that Deltarune is the Alternate Reality where Monsters won the war. It's a half-baked theory to be sure, but seeing all of the monsters around the world of Deltarune and there are no other humans (so far) besides Kris suggests to me that humans are somewhat rare in this world. Maybe because they were wiped out in the war?
Nah. There should have been records of the war. However, I do wonder where all the humans currently are in the Deltarune timeline.
I think deltarune is probably an alternate timeline not an alternate universe since it seems like the monsters have no magic
proof :
Toriel's oven having different text and noelle after leaving the dark world saying "I wish I could use healing magic in real life" so she could heal her dad and that the monsters were never trapped underground as proof that the war either never happened or ended in peace also it would explain why frisk and Chara aren't in the game cause Chara and other kids never fell into mount ebbot
(Toriel probably adopted Kris)
Indeed! I'm thinking along similar lines myself.
There is a third option an alternate reality that came into existence as a creation of someone or something in undertale’s universe. In this way you could have almost no similarities between the two but have a direct connection in their history that they do share.
Very true! I am working off the assumption that no Omega Flowey or Mega God of Death or any similar entity is actively controlling/reshaping the timeline. If that is the case, then all bets are off and anything is possible.
@@JaruJaruJ when you think about it.., what I said actually parallels dark worlds too. Nested realities is an interesting concept.
Regarding Mew Mew and Alphys' differing tastes between games, I think we need to consider the environment both versions of the character were raised in. In Undertale, Alphys pretty much spent her entire life in the underground. She hasn't any idea of what life on the surface is like, if her interest are anything to go by.
She also would have to deal with the existential dread of being forever trapped underground, a sentiment shared by most other monsters it seems. They would all speak about how good life used to be and how miserable they are in this prison, which I'm sure would do some psychological damage to our young scientist. Thus she finds Mew Mew 1, a lighthearted slice of life comedy, a perfect escape from the anguish of her stagnant, hopeless life. Mew Mew 2, a darker and edgier iteration, would only serve to remind her of how dark life is, and her revoltion at the show is a reflection of her attempts to shut out any reminders of the fate of monster kind. Mew mew 1 is the only thing keeping her spark alive in a desperate situation.
Wheras in Deltarune, she IS out on the surface. She IS free to live her full life. She's surrounded by monsters who likewise have never even known of the war, and would similarly be optimistic about their lot in life. Only where do we see Alphys in this new world? She's still the same dorky, socially awkward, anime consumed mess she was in the first game. Despite having everything going for her in this new world, Despite all the opportunities that are open, she still winds up in the garbage in the alleys. Alphys belives that the world she lives in isn't all its cracked up to be, only this time there is no greener grass on the other side to believe in. So of course she would gravitate to a darker and edgier Mew mew 2. Because it reaffirms her belief that life isn't fair, while simultaneously she reviles Mew mew 1 because it shows people enjoying life in a way she'll never get to.
Of course the real tragedy of it is that all Alphys needs to come out of her shell and make a name for herself is a little helping hand from someone else. Someone like you. In one world, she got that helping hand. In this one, she hasn't. Atleast so far.
I couldn't agree more. x)
I couldn't agree more. x)
i feel like alot of the talk about the similarites with deltarune and undertale and them being seperate timelines have to do with character details and personal relations, they are substantial, and you keep bringing up points about it but i feel like that was the first thing that was shown to us, this being a seperate story told with the same characters, and with deltarune being toby fox's first idea before undertale, i dont see him limiting himself when it comes to the frame that having undertale as a seperate timeline sets, because looking at it through the lense of it being an alternate timeline tells us ALOT (not that it telling us alot is a bad thing, im honestly an alternate timeline believer but theres parts that make me picky ab it) like i feel like alot of the evidence that piles up is just stuff we can end up assuming from chapter 1 , but the way these worlds actually work, the save points which were so important in undertale, and determination, which seemingly has nothing to do with saving now? seems to be completely different, as monsters can have determination without "falling down" as seen with queen trying to make noelle into a knight, im definetly leaning towards it being an alternate timeline but the fact that everytime you save the text box says your filled with some sort of "power" urks me because of just how powerful determination was in undertale, it could practically do anything , with enough determination chara took over frisk, and we, the player take over kris, ig my main point is its hard to know the difference between them with what we have, and given how substantial these forces seem to be in both games its difficult to fully be in one branch, it seems undertale is a good lense to look at in SOME cases but deltarune is not going to be afraid to be its own world, with its own seperate rules, which is why i feel looking at it as an alternate timeline sort of limits it in a way that contradicts what it does address about the meta aspects that were in undertale (determination ((and now power))) and how they differ
((srry ab the yap this is more for just for me to get my thoughts out lol))
if undertale and deltarune ARE both alternate timelines and the rules from undertale can be used to dictate the rules in deltarune, does every monster have the ability to persist after death?
Welcome back to RUclips man it's been awhile
Thanks man. Glad to be uploading again. x)
Coming back here after the Shadow Crystal episode. Still missing the prophecy episode and waiting patiently.
This video was EXCELLENT you brought up a lot of logical points and blew my mind with a few things you said one I'd them with the boss monster discussion and how Father Alvin is Gearson's son. Please make more Deltarune vids!! ❤
Thank you very much! I definitely will! :D
everyone is writing their own theories so I'll write mine:
undertale is a night story
the very first music on the soundtrack is once upon a time
the last is called good night
I refuse to elaborate further
Im just gonna say this,thank you so much ofr making this video,i needed this to understand both games,it is really interesting,and literally no body make this!
the proof you show i think its very accurate (i seen in the comments that just a bit of information was needed to make things more clear) but i really loved the overall of the video!
Thank you very much for the kind words! I'm glad you enjoyed it! :D
Everything here is very well defined but I've spotted a really crucial hole in a lot of the reasoning in regards to this debate.
Ignoring Undertale completely for a sec, the Dark World in Deltarune is, by your own definition, an "Alternate Reality" to the Light World, right? And yet, the Kris and Susie we follow in the Dark World are explicitly the same characters we follow in the Light World. So, using similarities between characters and events between characters and events in Undertale and Deltarune as evidence against the Alternate Reality theory is failing to account for the possibilty that characters can jup BETWEEN said realities.
One hole in this theory is, of course, that none of the characters for either game recall the events of the other, but also the presence of the phrase "don't forget" in both games makes that feel significantly more intentional.
Gerson, however. Yeah, I can't explain that. I want this theory to work but DAMN YOU GERSON.
I really appreciate the work you put into helping people to understand what you mean by vaguely talking about movies! My mom introduced to the movie back to the future, to me since I was young, and it's one of our favorite movies! (We also love the sequels)
My pleasure! I'm glad you enjoyed the video! :D
@@JaruJaruJ yeah no problem ^^
And I did UwU
I think the magic is a little explainable.
In Undertale humans sealed the monsters underground WITH magic. But, then they lost the ability to use magic (probably for not needing it after the war.) The monsters then heavily rely on magic to survive down there.
In deltarune, with the monsters being on the surface with advancing technology and things, they wouldn’t need to rely on magic that much and slowly lose the ability in an evolution process.
Interesting theory! My thoughts:
The barrier the humans created to seal the monsters is rather unclear in its origin. It's so powerful that it requires a GOD to destroy, and you need special soul power to pass through. That SEEMS to imply that it was created through the power of Determination. This is supported by the fact that the books in the monster library outright state that humans can't use magic. However, the ancient runes and intro refer to what the humans did as using a "magic spell" to create the barrier. As such, whether the barrier was created through magic or Determination is unclear. So, while it is possible that humans used magic and then lost it, it's definitely unclear exactly how the rules of that work. Your interpretation is definitely valid though!
This part I'm less certain on. Evolution takes a REALLY long time to make meaningful changes, and I don't think a few centuries or even a few thousand years would be long enough for the monsters to completely lose access to their magic. Even humans don't change that much in a few thousand years, and monsters live much longer than us and have children much less often. You could be right that they lost their magic as a result of not using it, but I think it would have to be explained from a different angle other than evolution.
Either way, thank you for the comment!
I feel incredibly stupid right now. I always assumed gerson lived so long because he was a turtle. How the hell did I never think "oh maybe he's a boss monster". I'm so stupid.
Also,I do hope you make more deltarune/undertale stuff,this video was great and I'd like to hear what you have to say about other things.
Thank you very much! I definitely intend to make more! And don't feel stupid! I could totally be wrong about Gerson. He may just be a variety of monster that lives a long time. Nothing wrong with thinking that. x)
My favorite idea for this came from the Comic, Paper Trail. Is Deltarune an Undertale where the humans _lost_ the war to monsters and the bunker is simply the humans’ version of the Underground?
That is a very interesting interpretation! I personally have my doubts, as it doesn't really feel in-character for the monsters to imprison humanity like that, but it would be very interesting to see how Toby Fox would handle a role-reversal like that.
@@JaruJaruJ It’s a cool comic. I’d recommend reading it, as they had predicted early on the addition of Noelle to the Party, the ability to bring items to other dark worlds, and the dichotomy between Kris and The Player.
Two theories I thought of while watching this, which could apply to reality and timeline theories, respectively:
1. Magic doesn't exist; humans aren't as threatened by monsters, but it doesn't necessarily mean humans like monsters still, explaining the town not having humans (excluding Kris, who is similar to the fallen human/Chara).
2. The timeline split involves magic being stopped/controlled; it's the same timeline up until where the war would occur, but either through the monsters defeat or negotiations, magic is no longer allowed/isn't possible. This could be done either through destroying/containing something, or just no longer using it by law and it being forgotten.
Those are some very good theories! I've actually written a script where I discuss what I think happened to DELTARUNE's magic, which I hope to make some day, and your theories are thinking along very similar lines to myself!
Another thing I've noticed that might apply to an alternative reality is the possibility of monsters being formed slightly differently. We know Sans is from somewhere different, and he's the only character that bleeds (unless it is ketchup-) before turning into dust off-screen. I doubt Sans is from Deltarune, however, it could be a hint towards other "worlds" having different rules.
@@brooklynmitchell8020 Quite possibly!
@@brooklynmitchell8020 we hear a character say to kris: "does it hurt when you bleed?" So i don't think monsters bleed
I think there still has to be magic around the world, because how else would monsters like napstablook exist?
Just a little mini theory that could explain the absence of magic in Deltarune.
I imagine the divergent part of the alternate timeline is the war between humans and monsters.
In Undertale and Deltarune it's explained in both libraries (and Ralsei/Flowey) that souls are the culmination of one's being. Perhaps monsters have magic in their souls but have never needed to manifest said magic. In a world where the war ended or never happened, magic to heal or attack was never developed as a survival skill. Or was slowly forgotten and abandoned. But perhaps it's a teachable skill that monsters have deep within their souls.
I give the example of Ralsei teaching Susie healing magic. We have yet to see her use this magic in the light world, but if she does end up using this spell she's learned in the light world in future chapters, it could give this mini theory some real ground to stand on.
My thoughts on the "Final boss" having rainbow wings thing:
The god of Hyperdeath form asriel takes is probably formed from his imagination, so it would make sense for the game to have a powerful final boss with rainbow wings.
I mean the abilities literally sound like something he would have come up with when designing his game. The only problem with this theory is that the creation of the boss monster would have had to predate both DR and UT to exist in both timelines, and since Asriel must have been born after the timeline split, that's not plausible
@@ultravioletcatastrophe From my understanding of the lore, I'm not understanding what you're saying. Would you please elaborate?
@@bookswithbek2702 if the god of hyperdeath exists both in DR on Asriel's computer and in UT as manifested by Asriel, then it means that Asriel must have had the idea for it before the original timeline diverged into the UT and DR timelines. However since Asriel was born after the war started, and the war started on the UT timeline after the timeline split into two, there's no sensible explanation for how both versions of Asriel have the same idea since they are not branching versions of any "original timeline" Asriel
@@bookswithbek2702 the computer with the illustration and the whole game idea never existed in the UT timeline.
@@ultravioletcatastrophe Good point. But I don't agree. Have a nice day, though.
Im assuming gerson had alvin back in undertale, which is why he was old. but alvin was probably killed by a human, which is why Gerson stopped aging and he’s so wary of frisk.
I love this - theorizing is so fun!
Agreed! xD
I just wish people would actually have more facts then theories and I see THIS is NOT a common thing to go directly to certain dimensions in person to have more in depth information.
I personally think that it’s the same universe but don’t have enough evidence to fully make sense of my theory
Tho the theory of it not is also probable
Very good video, I understand it can be hard to get motivated sometimes. Regardless I did enjoy this analysis.
I'm glad to hear. It's hard to work up the energy to make these things, especially given how long they run. But seeing people comment and have discussion makes it worth it. x)
@@JaruJaruJ BTW one small thing I want to ask. Under the definitions provided in this video of reality & timelines where would a parellel universe go under. Granted parellel universes themselves do alter in fiction. Some times they are universes with a shared history, and other times they will have fundimentally different histories but still have universal counterparts to people and rules making them parellel.
It really just depends on the fiction. Some series treat alternate timelines like they're parallel universes, while others treat alternate timelines as all existing in the same universe. For example, in UNDERTALE, when Frisk resets the timeline or Loads a Save File, they are switching between timelines. However, the game does not treat this as jumping to a parallel universe. It treats all the UNDERTALE timelines as existing in the same universe. Same with stuff like Back to the Future.
By contrast, something like Doctor Who treats alternate timelines as being in a completely separate universe. When the Doctor travels through time, he's traveling up and down the same, singular timeline in a single universe. He can change the past, but it doesn't create a new timeline. It just alters the existing timeline.
Terms like "parallel universe" are difficult to pin down due to them being a fictional concept. What it specifically means will vary from series to series.
@@JaruJaruJ I see, thanks for the response.
No problem! Thanks for the comments! x)
Great video. Just one thing though that stood out to me by the end. We have discussed alternate realities in undertale and deltarune. Both Chara and the references to You. Our own reality is registered in the ut/dr universes as an alternate reality. Chara says 'to destroy this world and move on to the next'. That sounds more like a whole reality than a different timeline, as restarting doesn't satisfy her. There has been much speculation that the next is that of deltarune instead. The fact that deltarune and undertale are different exe files is generally considered different 'worlds' or 'realities' by this fan-theory. In Deltarune you have 3 save files, but they are all within the same game. Meanwhile in UT you only have 1. Looking at the metanarrative of the game, this is significant, as the save function is considered to be a soul mechanic. Although you could paint this as Kris (or You) being exceptionally powerful, as we can see in Omega Flowey fight there being possibly dozens of save files. Is your determination stronger in DR than UT because of the comparative lack of magic/determination around you? Doubtful, as it could be argued that Kris doesn't have strong determination based on save text, instead being like the other coloured human souls that died in ut? (they seem to have the power of shining, whatever that means, as that's the one recurring word). It is unclear, but it's a fundamental world difference.
Personally, I think that it is a hybrid combination of the two. You may ask how can it be both an alternate reality as well as an alternate timeline? It's a different game, but made by the same creator who wanted to tell a different story and use similar aspects. A god created the two worlds, so to speak. I believe there will be a connection through parallels, and Your connection to the two realities as a bridging point, but as Toby himself said, there will be no way to alter what has occurred in the other game. But as for how it's also an alternate timeline: I think the monsters won in dr version of the world, but at the cost of their magic, and the humans were almost completely wiped out as a result. If time was altered so that the events of Undertale occurred instead, you'd have a nearly identical world, monsters could do magic and the underground and everything - so would that make deltarune purely an alternate timeline? I argue not entirely, because the game mechanics: Party fighting, having 3 save files, a TP bar! All these things would remain part of that timeline, and that makes it fundamentally different in a way I can't ignore. And even if it was, it being a different exe file and the meta element being such a strong storytelling element - I just can't say it is the same reality.
Sorry I rambled a bit, I love this series so it's exciting to theorize about it! Looking forward to your next one!
Fair. It may be that Chara was referring to alternate realities. We don't really know for certain, of course, but I agree that it would make sense if that's what Chara was referring to. Then again, if Chara had moved on to another reality, then why do they notice the player hanging out in UNDERTALE after the Genocide run? If they were in a completely different reality, how and why would they notice that the player was hanging out in UNDERTALE wishing for the game to come back? Seems strange.
The meta stuff regarding save files is interesting, but I feel like you could also explain the multiple save files as just being a result of the two games having different design philosophies. UNDERTALE was all about living with the consequences of your actions, and having multiple save files would undermine that. By contrast, DELTARUNE's theme is that your choices don't matter, and thus having multiple save files doesn't alter that your choices don't meaningfully change anything. Furthermore, having multiple save files makes exploring the game's secrets easier, so maybe Toby added that in order to improve upon UNDERTALE, where exploring different playthroughs was a much more tedious process. It could also be a meta-storytelling device, like you said, but there might be alternate interpretations as well.
I should point out that while the Dark World has party fighting and a TP bar, the Light World seems to continue to use the standard UNDERTALE menus and UI. This could be implying that the two timelines share the same fundamental rules, and it's just Dark Worlds that have special attributes. Something to think about.
Regardless, thank you very much for the lengthy comment and the kind words! I love seeing people's different interpretations of UNDERTALE and DELTARUNE, so feel free to ramble in my comment section whenever you please. x)
oh- I thought you'd have more than 1000 subscribers considering the quality of the videos- my guy, you've earned yourself a subscriber. Its sad how some of the best youtubers are the smallest.
Thank you very much! I'm grateful to have received as much support as I have!
in a diferent timeline, where monsters were NOT trapped underground, they would possibly loose they culture, just like humans don't use magic in that world anymore. monsters wouldn't either
Ahhhhh, George Hancock did not get you after all. Welcome back :D!!!
Thank you very much. It's good to be back. x)
Well this timeline explanation now makes sense as to why nobody has ever interacted with time travelers before. If someone did, the world would branch into a completely different timeline separate from ours, one in which someone has interacted with time travellers before.
Without hearing your explanation and theory, my first thoughts about what the swatchling says in the Power of Neo section were that he was referring to the creature with rainbow wings on Asriel's computer. I feel both that and Metaton Neo's body could fit the description the Swatchling gives, and the description of the rainbow wing creature sort of fits what Spamton Neo looks like, but the shared name Neo makes me think it is more likely Metaton's body.
Maybe Asriel's creature and Metaton's body were combined somehow? I don't know, just something to think about
You have to remember, the cyber world is only in the library, how would it have access to something in Asriel's computer?
It is most definitively Mtt's body, spamton even has a line about spantom EX, which is yet another thing related to Mtt
everything starts to click if you start to imagine that the "underground" is similar in nature if not identical to deltarune's dark world
I like to think this is a timeline where the war never happened, or they stopped the war and now humans and monster coexists in the surface, Kris was an orphan who feels more comfortable being with monsters than humans, that's why they are in a town where we don't see any other human
Ey, yo, I know I'm a bit late to the game but I feel like if this were an alt-timeline, a lot of these characters just wouldn't have been born because the implied timeline divergence happened way too early.
I think DR is UTs story being run backwards.
The first area in the Dark World you enter is like (spoilers) the destroyed remnants of a No Mercy run in UT.
The second chapter is technology, kinda like Mettaton and the CORE combined.
There will be only ONE ending because UT only had ONE starting point for all timelines and AUs.
That is a fantastic theory my man! Super creative too!
@@JaruJaruJ thanks!
I just love making theories for Toby's games!
We never did find out what all those piles of dust are in the first area did we
@@someoneyoudontknow3257 Broooooo
@@someoneyoudontknow3257 Just the souls of the innocent.
I’m in the playlist checking times and uh… well guess I’m not sleeping
Take your time! The videos aren't going anywhere. xD
Fun Fact: You're great and these videos are probably the best Theories about Deltarune out there. We're fine if it takes long until a new video releases. Take your time, the quality of these Videos is more than enough and we appreciate it!
Thank you very much for the kind words! :D
I really like how he explains these things slowly and thoroughly without needless and convoluted words/information. It makes it a lot easier to understand and he does it without being condescending or annoying, it’s not beating the horse at all!
I'm glad you enjoyed! I tried to be thorough, since it's a complex topic. x)
@@JaruJaruJ yeah yeah! I’m still trying to finish the other three videos though lol
Awesome theory, man! Very well researched and I hope we get to see your other theories as well. You just got a new subscriber c:
Also I wanna point out that I also really enjoy reading the discussions in the comments under this video. Very insightful stuff!
As did I! Thank you very much for the kind words! :D
I am almost certain deltarune and undertale are alternate realities, but exist within the same meta-universe. Sans in deltarune is definitely the same sans as in undertale.
That may be the case! It's very unclear at this point in time.
Future college professor hours.
One thing to add to the Sans question, is that the only reference to Ice-E is explicitly from Sans. He was the one who put the word search as a puzzle for us. Which might have been a 4th wall break, giving us a head-scratcher that we'd be incapable of solving with our scope. It also fits Sans' character trait of "maximum effect with minimal effort" by creating such a trick by literally just taking a child's restaurant placemat and just sitting it in front of us and calling it a 'puzzle'.
May I propose a full theory to you? Here we go...
Personally, I think that the song that plays on the date with Sans "it's raining somewhere else" might be referring to the goners not existing. I'd like to think that Toby's original idea during development was Sans is a Gaster Follower, or is Gaster. Because of the face-vailue evidence that he's a scientist that can look at time-line readings and do mysterious things through time and space. On top of that he and Alphies, the current royal scientist know each other. If fact, in a neutral route, she becomes the leader of the underground, saying that thanks to San's help she's slowly rebuilding the UG calling Sans "a good man". Alphies first thought that the amalgamates were "goners". Since the goners are grey variations of normal characters like monster kid, glam girl, guy from the restaurant who's too embarrassed to leave, spider donut guy and others, we can assume that Alphies already knew about the goners before her DT experiments. And another fact is that Sans and pap are monsters that just appear out of nowhere, in a secluded underground with a magical barrier around it that ONLY allows people to enter, not leave. But they couldn't have passed through the ruins, since they would have had to cut through Torie's house to get through. But Toriel Sans have never met before, Implying that they must have came from Hotland to snowdin town. But Papyrus says over the phone that he has never been to Hotland. Gaster is confirmed to have "fallen into his creation" assuming that means The Core, but Sans has a strange machine in his basement that can't be fixed. It's so important that Toby even had to address it saying that even in the best possible ending it still couldn't be fixed. In that same room are the people who we don't recognize. I theorize it's the Goners. If I had to guess, I would say that the machine is some kind of artificially made "true reset" button. Since no one outside of Gaster Followers remember that he even exists with Alphies as the current Royal Scientist, it might have been that Gaster accidentally destroyed his own time-line, turning it into a sort of AU with alternate versions of everyone with only slight differences. If he could have successfully fixed the machine, he could have theoretically have true-reseted to before the human monster war and stopped it, making an even better ending than the true pacifists ending. Only everyone would obviously have small differences like the goners. Evectivly making DELTARUNE not an AU where the HxM war didn't happen, but one where the machine was fixed. Possibly even turning some undertale characters into goners. With goners being echoes of their old selves, like how sometimes characters remember old runs. Tori remembering the pie you like, Sans knowing about the GR, exc. exc. But taken to new levels. Though I don't know about that last part. That may just be my head cannon for what the goners are. So the TL;DR is I think that DELTARUNE is an AU, where the machine was fixed, changing a carbon copy of Undertale through time-travle mechanics into a different time-line where the human monster war just, didn't happen. And Kris' story in game is might be related but also might be complely unrelated to the state of the world his story takes place in.
Sans possibly being Gaster blows my mind.
@@piccolofan24 Well thanks. 😊
Though that is just my interpretation of his original idea, since he has all the plot set-up in the world to be revealed as Gaster. But it's also possible there Toby changed his mind later in development or after release with updates. And that's fine too. Whatever he has in mind, I really hope he explores it to the fullest. :)
I’ve personally think the connection between Undertale and Deltarune it’s like the connection between TLoZ: Ocarina of Time, and TLoZ: Majora‘s Mask (sans the member of one world going to the other, unless you count, well, Sans). Two worlds that are eerily similar, with seemingly the same or similar people existing in both, and yet have very distinct, and possibly mutually exclusive histories.
That would be an Alternate Reality, yes. Which it might be.
well done.
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Ok I know I am very late into the brainrot, and I just dove into it so I might be way off but something tickles me about this question. Do we know that these two possibilities are the only two possibilities? From my perspective, there could be a 'multiverse' theory somewhat different from the Alternate Reality/timeline dilemma.
Undertale already indulged itself in insinuating that different playthrough contributes to the overall narrative/meta-narrative (With how flowey knows we can SAVE, how Sans knows we have some power to always retry, the way Frisk`s eyes blink red after a genocide then pacifist run). This is where I might be wrong since I am unaware of what is canon and what is not if it is even a relevant question in the first place. The way some characters are aware that the character the player incarnates in-game is capable of things others can`t, those not so subtle 4th wall taps every now and then.
I posit the idea of a multiverse; any possible playthrough DID occur. I don`t know, I might just be going cuckoo, hadn`t dove into Deltarune since yesterday and let`s just say, I haven`t had a lot of sleep. I need to rewatch this, thanks and cheers!
A multiverse could circumvent the limitations presented by alternate reality/alternate timeline. It could offer universes with different laws, rules, magic and power while still having characters that share a very similar upbringing. I don`t think I'm doing a good job at explaining what I believe, and I doubt this comment will even be read but yea.
I'm getting recommended more and more less viewed Deltarune videos 👀
Edit: Regarding the apparent lack of magic: In Undertale afaik humans lost knowledge of magic, monsters, soul and the whole jazz; therefore I think monsters not knowing about magic isn't that much of an unlikely scenario even in an alternative timeline in the same reality, for example if the roles of humans and monsters after the war were switched (with some changes obviously, but if all humans and monsters lived together in harmony you'd think there'd be more humans in town than just one or that other humans were at least mentioned apart beyond a book on caring for humans)
I'm glad! I'm getting far more support for this video than I ever expected! :D
And yeah, you make a fair point regarding the humans forgetting about monsters and magic and such. However, humans live much shorter lives than monsters, and it seems like the monsters were sealed underground for potentially thousands of years. As such, it makes a decent amount of sense that humanity would forget all this. On the other hand, characters like Gerson and Asgore have been alive since the war, so it seems unlikely that they and the other long-lived monsters would just forget about magic. Especially considering how integral magic is to a monster's life and biology. Still, I see what you're saying, and the idea of the humans being sealed underground instead is rather interesting.
As for the humans not being particularly numerous in the Hometown, it is odd. But I could also seem them making some random comment explaining it away. Maybe humans are still afraid of monsters, or maybe monsters chose to isolate themselves due to humans being so much more powerful than them. Hard to say. I'm sure we'll get some hint about this in future chapters though.
I feel like Deltarune being an alternate timeline is correct not only because of all of the points in the video, but it would also make the fact that Gaster seems to be more prominent in Deltarune make more sense
You make a very good point! If the monsters were never sealed underground, then Gaster would have no reason to make the CORE, which means he shouldn't be shattered, which means he SHOULD still be an active player in DELTARUNE's world. Exciting!
Yeah I feel as though the role of gaster in deltarune was not only downplayed but downright ignored, I mean yeah there's very little we actually know about him for certain, but even in the first 2 chapters of the game that we have not there have been some, well, pretty heavy handed implications that he has a substantial influence over the deltarune world, or at least the dark world, now these could all just be one big red herring but given sans implied relationship to gaster in undertale it wouldnt surprise me if figuring out sans and gasters role in deltarune will be critical in understanding the plot as a whole and how it connects to undertale
@@jlewwis1995 I've got some theories I'm working on regarding the plot of DELTARUNE, and I have my suspicions regarding what role Gaster plays in all this. But I'd be lying if I knew exactly what his endgame is. We never really knew what he wanted in UNDERTALE, so figuring out what he wants in DELTARUNE is a very daunting task.
spamton neo having wings kinda looks similar to what the asriel's computer describes "raindow wings" that also supports the evidence of a "lightner" creating something with hope , idk about the rests of the details but thats all i can figure out
That's a fair theory. I'm not entirely sure how Asriel creating NEO would make sense for either timeline, but I suppose that is a valid interpretation of all this. Maybe Asriel had a vision of the future and saw that Spamton NEO was the final boss (sometimes) in Chapter 2 of DELTARUNE. Certainly an interesting angle!
@@JaruJaruJ there is a very good reason for that but not in a more in depth very good....
"I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO CREATE A NEW FUTURE WITH YOU."
I think gaster is Toby fox
Toby is outside time and space in the undertale and deltarune world
You don’t know what “gaster” name is or what he looks like
Sorry for bad English, just trying to get the theory out there
No worries! And that's a totally valid theory! x)
White Dog Gaster
I thought it was pretty obvious that Deltarune was a alternate timeline, bit I don't know, everything could be possible. Also, I loved that the Sans part was in Comic Sans, it's a neat detail, and great video too!
The rainbow wings on the computer still make me keep my hunch.
My persisting theory is the knight manipulated Asriel into opening the grand dark fountain before the beginning of deltarune, Asriel's motivation being to help Kris make friends, when he went through the dark world he created the NEO body.
Interesting. I'm not sure how Asriel would create the NEO body, considering it was made by Alphys in UNDERTALE, but the rest of your theory makes a lot of sense. Definitely a valid possibility!
Thank you for the comment!
I haven't got far in this video, but I DO love that, no matter which you pick, both have awful fonts chosen for them haha
Thank you for that, it honestly made me happy
I know I'm late to this discussion and you may even touch on it later in the video, I'm just at the part where you talk about Toby's comments on the discussion. My take, having yet to get round to playing Deltarune Chapter 2, is that the Genocide run of Undertale may have set up the possibility of something seperate from both an alternate timeline or alternate universe. When Chara talks directly with the player, the player is given the option to rebuild the world once it is destroyed completely in order to replay the game. On a second Genocide run, Chara gives this option again, but suggests going down a different path, whether out of boredom or whatever else. It seems that the player, as an entity mostly seperate but tied to the actions of both Frisk and Chara, has the godlike ability to reset the world as they desire (and in a meta sense they literally do). Another detail to note, however, is that when Chara asks if you want to destroy the world, it appears that we refuse and Chara says "Who ever said you were the one in control?" This, to me, implies that Chara, at least with the power you have given them through the Genocide route, has some ability themselves to erase or reset the world. Given this, and how the ending of Deltarune Chapter 2 directly references completing a pacifist run of Undertale after a Genocide run, it feels to me like Chara, for whatever reason, reset the world after many different times through Undertale's story in order to experience things in a new way. If this is the case, it is functionally different to an alternate universe or timeline, as the universe is created by an entity living within it. This means that even if this new world shares a different ruleset and history from the previous one, its similarities to the previous one are bound to the entity who brought it into existence. The ruleset itself could be different, but the fact that there is an entity who's consciousness reaches further out than the mundane world around them and is able, with enough power, to manipulate, mutate or completely erase and rewrite its existence stays true.
What if deltarune is a prequel to undertale, where in the end of deltarune it will be set up for a giant dark fountain that engulfs the whole town is created, and everything goes into the status of undertale, where everyone has magic and the characters are as they are.