When I am comparing values I show how a coin has come down from auction results in the previous years. No matter what mint mark all MS67 modern cents have dropped in value. Here's two resources to show that fact. www.pcgs.com/pricehistory#/?=2872-67 www.pcgs.com/pricehistory#/?=2875-67
When you " commoditize" anything, corruption is inevitable... The US mint needed to step in back in the 90's to speak out when awareness of the superfakes began...now anyone can copy the holder, bar code, and sell it sight unseen..Also population distortion is a reality with multiple submissions of the same coin, and those bar codes are often given to the fakes being produced ....since the original holder often gets cracked, no one knows if they have the original or a fake with the same barcode!!!!!
@@guttedfish6152 very true. It's hard to know if the consensus is correct or not. A lot of people crack out and resubmit but never send the holder back in for consensus
Rule no 1. Buy the coin by eye appeal and not the holder. Because coins can be swap or mishandled. (this golden rule is always applies no matter what happens. I will come back to here later.**) Rule no 2. Look at the grade only after the eye appeal. Because the condition applies to popular, demand and mintage. Take that 1901 Morgan as a example. I have no knowledge of I will set a case say that 1901 Morgan has a mintage of 100000 and it is graded at AU 58. And in the pcgs, because there are only say a population of 2 AU 58, then it can of course go even higher price when there is more demand and popular. But if there is no demand and popular, it still commands a high price because there are only 2 pcs in the whole world graded AU 58. **But things get very super complicated here. Example say the AU 58 coin price is very high, the person decided to break the coin out of the holder and do a resubmission which I have always heard this problem before. Now say the whole world only have 10 au58. This will make the person with malicious intention to spoil the whole market by either package another 8 with look like au58 coin and stuffs. So there for rule no 1 applies. If you really want to be expert in this area, alot of consideration needs to be consider and ruin the hobby. But instead always make sure what you pay for is real and you like the item will do. If people keep pushing for the prices of these graded coins, I suggest look at else where. The only reason why these grading companies existed is because they are only here to say, hey this coin has been clean/not cleaned/error/ms70 and so on. Then the value of the coin goes up Alittle due to the grading authenticity and that is all about it (espically coins that are produce before 1970). It is always the silly sellers that say hey check this out. Ms70 mint state! Yeah. I know. I Don know how many ms70 walking liberty/china panda coins I have seen even with 1st strike. I also feel like telling them hey, ms70. Want to buy? Ha ha ha.....
The problem with videos like this is only 5,400 people have seen it our of almost 24,000 subs and as clicks decline RUclips kills it. It becomes a flash in the pan when their reach is limited like this. So sharing is very important.
I started to collect coins in the 1940's. I learned early I had to be my own appraiser. I learned as much about coins as I could. My philosophy became if I liked the coin and it's price I bought it. Today, since grading is so subjective, there is no way a gaggle of coin appraisers with various experience levels can hit , with reliability and consistency, a grade of 58 or 59, or 57 on the same coin. If you don't agree with the seller's grade and price, if in doubt, don't buy.
Over two years ago I took up the hobby of coin collecting, but have yet to submit any of my coins to the coin grading companies for the very reasons you point out here concerning inconsistency. I'm in full agreement with your point of view, and so glad someone is speaking of it.
It's a total RACKET!! They create and control the market - That's why usually the highest graded coins are private auction/sale and or wasn't sold. I'm investigating! Great video Daniel! I love and appreciate your time, effort, and information! Thank you!
I have at least 8 coins I feel are worthy of sending away to be graded. I can’t afford to do it and pay PCGS and NGC membership fees. I think having to be a member is ridiculous anyway. Now I could probably afford ANACS but then that isn’t the best third party according to everyone including you. I understand we should have to pay to get our coins graded. Those companies are in business to make money. I get it but damn. Be reasonable about it so the average collector can afford it.
Silver Slingblade No he doesn’t. And he’s said so in more than one of his videos. Either you misunderstood or heard wrong. Either way they’re not as reputable as PCGS and NGC and are known for over grading their coins. I’m not new at this slick. The same coin graded by PCGS will sell higher than the ANACS coin. Look it up on Heritage Auctions like I do and see for yourself.
I think they're as good but they grade too many modern coins for HSN and they're a bit liberal on cents, but I do think they're just as good but their grades don't sell as well.
With all the fakes out there I like the sense of security and for resell assurances to the next person but collecting now vs collecting in the past is totally different.
This is my honest opinion from over 30 years of coin collecting! I believe the top Third Party Grading companies know exactly what they are doing! And they currently have way to much freedom and power to do exactly what they are doing with no repercussions whatsoever! They are grading coins to fit in the grading system exactly where they want them to be! It’s completely set up that way so they can make sure the top spots are reserved for there own personal gain! It does not take a genius to see how much those top grades are worth, if just anyone would be able to get one! Someone would have to be an idiot if they did not think the TPS’s are leveraging it for there own gain! For one thing that’s why most people send coins in to them, yes even multiple times hoping and dreaming of getting that high value grade! If an average coin collector does happen to send in what should be an incredible highly graded coin, they can instantly kill it with one of there vague details grades! Has anyone ever received questionable color, altered surfaces, cleaned, tooled, etc. with absolutely no explanation? I would actually like to see there records for graded detailed coins, I’m sure they keep them! Please don’t get me wrong, I do know there are coins with issues! But that just brings up another part of the scam! High volume big dollar dealers will get the MS60’s grades on problem coins! But the really high value top grades are reserved for the select few with the money or power to demand whatever grade they want! And another thing you can actually see in the history, those very high valuable top grades are hardly ever topped! I do believe a computerized system to grade coins would be the best thing that could ever happen for the average coin collectors wanting there coins fairly and accurately graded! Just look at the lottery for example, it is exact and winners are not chosen based on another persons supposedly opinion! Daniel, thank you so much for the best coin collecting hobby information! And Daniel you are the best thing that’s happened for the coin collecting hobby in a long time!
Certainly not an expert by any means but a long time collecting and very skeptical about some of these grades and who decides what, is going in with these different grades
Daniel, thanks again for such an insightful and well thought out video. There should absolutely be someone or some entity that keeps an eye on the third party graders to make sure they're grading coins at a consistent grade. Too many times a more scratched coin is coming at a higher grade than it should be and more perfect coins are getting a lower grade then they should be, it's wrong and it's why I havent bothered to send anything off to be graded. I have hundreds of coins I would love to have graded but worry too much about the Inconsistency of grading cause like you said there Is a huge difference in value from one grade to the next. It just worries me too much to do it. Well, anyways Daniel thanks again for the wonderful and educational videos.... like I've said time and time again you are a godsend to community, keep it up please!
As I have mentioned before... I don't see how the hobby can move forward the way it is.... The youth today have so much more to interest them... and spend their money on.... I just don't see the average 22 yr old passing up a MacBook computer for a 1889 cc morgan.... If the hobby looses 10% of the interested collectors and no-one steps in to fill the void... watch out what happens to coin prices.... Just remember (as I am sure you do, but other watching may not have thought about this) That penny you showed is only worth $4000 or $400 if someone will buy it, if not it is worth 1 cent. Even stacking precious metals is a gamble... if tomorrow technology cuts into the industrial uses for silver then that price will drop. This hobby only stays alive by interested people, if the grading companies leave a bad taste in your mouth with the first coin you submit you may decide not to collect anything else. I have a full set of cc morgans which was one of the goals I started out with, but after doing this for even a small amount of time I question if I will ever be able to sell or trade these for anything near what I paid....
The problem with videos like this is only 5,400 people have seen it our of almost 24,000 subs and as clicks decline RUclips kills it. It becomes a flash in the pan when their reach is limited like this. So sharing is very important.
@@CoinHELPu I think the point of this discussion is that whether it's Heritage Auctions or Auctionzip or whatever...that people are falling over themselves to pay these high prices...who are these people??
My Grandson sent in so many to be graded and he has had such a bad experience with PCGS that I will never spend the money on a subscription alone. They're killing the small collectors who just want a fair break. Totally agree With you on these grading companies.
Buy the grading books and give your best guess to see if it is worth sending in the coin to be graded. I would first look in the Mega Red Book to look at all the grading values for the coin. If it is worth being graded I will send it in. My trick is I will choose the grade below the one that I think it is. So in case I am wrong I am still ahead. I do the same thing when I buy raw coins. It does work some times but I only send it in if the grade under the one that I think. Is still worth the money.
The problem with videos like this is only 5,400 people have seen it our of almost 24,000 subs and as clicks decline RUclips kills it. It becomes a flash in the pan when their reach is limited like this. So sharing is very important.
Good morning Daniel Grading is and always will be subjective And you are correct in saying there should be standards established within third party graders
The problem with videos like this is only 5,400 people have seen it our of almost 24,000 subs and as clicks decline RUclips kills it. It becomes a flash in the pan when their reach is limited like this. So sharing is very important.
I really appreciate your honest discussion of a tough subject. Like most things in life, grading companies have a lot of pros and cons. A graded coin is still just an opinion and ideally you should be able to actually evaluate the coin yourself and make a determination. Buy the coin, not the holder 😊
I just like coin collecting, i have coins from around the world, do i have any coins that have a lot of value, I don't know, and to be honest them having a value or price tag takes away the meaning of being a coin hobbyist, i can understand its a business for dealers, but to me owning coins is a joy, and the memory of where i got it, is more priceless than how much it cost.
Thanks for another great video. I have been looking for a 1901-P that's under priced raw to get graded for my collection. One thing you stated a while back that I think would help a bit is creating some computer based program that uses algorithms and analytics for grading coins. I know like you have said graders can look at thousands of coins a day, I know just by personal experience over time a persons vision can become worse.
The issue in my opinion is people that pay ridiculous prices for modern condition “rarities”. When a common coin is getting more a higher price than a true rare coin there is a big problem. There a rolls of these modern coins stashed away that half the roll if the same standards are applied could get the same grade. It’s a bubble that is going to burst.
It’s much to expensive to send off coins for grading. I would be fine with a set price a coin but I don’t think the membership and minimum amount sent in for grading is a lot of bull. There are a lot of people who may only need 5 coins graded a year and pcgs and NGC are missing out by not allowing people to send it 5 coins and just pay. 15 bucks each or whatever to get coins graded.
Daniel, when u crack out a coin from a slab, do u have to notify the grading company that the coin was cracked out? If not, and the coin was regraded, wouldnt this falsely affect the "Population Report" & subsequently & possibly negatively the price? If one thinks the population is higher than it really is, wouldnt it lower the price?
@@CoinHELPu it depends on how many resubmit. If 10% resubmit then the population will be 10% greater than it actually is. Which can negatively affect the price if many do it.
There were so many things in this video that I have thought of previously which you have come rite out and said in this video so it has been great to have your thought on things, thanks Daniel.
As a former Non Destructive Tester for the Aerospace industry I made decisions that peices met the Standard specified...Trained Cerified and stamped every piece of my inspection. Accountable and recognized as outstanding inspector......Maybe the grader needs to be accountable. And Specs need to be specified in print.
I don't buy graded coins. I was at a coin show and 2 sellers were talking, saying they can't sell graded coins. I wanted a flying eagle cent. Seller sold me an 1857 for 5 dollars. It's worn but I can read the date. I'm happy. I'm not spending a thousand dollars for one coin. I can buy alot of coins for a thousand dollars.
Even though I believe that computer grading technology would create favorable standard for most people if money value is more important than a hobby itself. And unlike looking at hand prints or finger prints, I think coins, especially the ones that are in circulation, coin grading is much more complex in verifying mint marks and wear marks variations, therefore human grading is still a better way to do. I heard you said it before and that to treat coin collecting as a hobby first, and I treat my coin collecting as a hobby first. But with due diligent and patience on collector's part, the hunt for a small fortune in coins is possible.
The one thing i have noticed is in every coin group i am in, grading seems to be a hush hush topic. Everytime someone asks about how the grading process works and where to begin, almost 100% of the time it turns into "well show us what you got and "we" will tell you if its worth grading." don't get me wrong i appreciate coin input from those with experience, but most are quick to the derogatory. That can be extremely discouraging, and, no one learns anything.
As written in another comment, i know what coins i have that will be low EF, and i know what un-opened coins might get a good AU, but just trying to get people to discuss the process is like trying to get a secret family recipe.
Ironically, that'll be it. Just wandering, why they immediatelu commented 'damaged' and/or 'scratched' whereas ( though it is clearly visible) that is NOT! SO, I'd leave the group with no second thought.. It will only ruin my aspiration.. hope you got what i mean. GOODLICK for both of us and for those who wilk venture into coin collecting. .
I've started only collecting CAC approved coins because of the inconsistencies in grading you pointed out. There really is a need for a second opinion especially on coins selling in the thousands of dollars. I stay away from condition rarities especially in modern coins like the 1961 cent. Look what happened to the first 1995-W Silver Eagle PCGS PR70 that sold for $86K in 2013. Now it's worth $15K.
I focus on CAC coins too but I don't pay a premium for them, though the dealers often want one. They do tend to be better coins though I have seen a few overgraded CAC coins in holders. I've never bought a CAC coin online that I wanted to return after having it in hand to look at.
I have question about 1964 D AU 55 penny, 1937 D 5 c VF 30 Details corroded.scratched , 1929 S 5c good 4. And 1951 S 1c EF 40 penny can’t find price for this coins I need a little help ,, thanks for your time
If you put more restrictions on the grading scale I think that would help the grading company cannot grade without the scale and I think there is market manipulations going on with the grading company's now why would you pay 30 more dollars for a 70 grade 2019 eagle
Like your videos. I think Coin grading company's charge way to much per coin and for the type of coin it is ,there prices go up, I think RUclips has done a great deal of good for coin collecting, Lots of great info out there and some not so good ;)
Hey, i am a peon here. I was left to clean out my stepfather's place when he passed away and he had a dresser drawer full of coins !! I am NOT swimming in money. What am I TO DO ??
@@barrysutton4589 ty, that's the problem.... Reputable.... ??? Word of who's mouth ? I dony know anyone around here so i really just don't know what to do... But TYVM😊
Good morning Dan: I have done research on coins already graded by NGC before I sent coins in for grading to see how many marks can be on them. I sent in a 1971-D quarter, it was flawless; if it weren't for the D mint mark I would have thought it was a proof coin. When it came back it had scratch marks on the lower part of the bust, and you still needed a magnifier to see the damage, yet I have seen coins in worse condition graded MS68; mine came back at an MS65. When I called them about it, they wanted me to resubmit it. And this has happened a few times, to me it's not worth sending anything in; it seems to me that they control coin population by damaging or understanding them to protect the wealthy investors. I might be wrong, but from what I've seen; I'm right on the money.
@Geo C. I agree with you 100%. If the coin collecting community is going to servive they need to start being honest. They are in a sence, in control! And there bias is pushing people away from the hobby.
I agree with both of you. I’ve sent in several submissions and had a few good results, but over all I could have spent that money on high grade already graded coins. It’s just too expensive. I love the thrill of the hunt but in my experience it’s cheaper to save and buy already graded coins. Or AI graded coins may be the way to go. I just hate replacing humans anywhere.😢
@@terrisuitor5441 I'm not a fan of AI! AI is created by humans, and programmed by humans. I believe in old fashion honesty, and integrity. If people start to expose them, they will be forced to change.
I have also found after tens of thousands of photos that lighting makes all the difference. The lighting that I use really shows the coin and 100% color and detail and sometimes that kicks my butt.. lol
I HAVE TALKED TO SEVERAL DEALERS AND THEY SAY IF YOU CAN'T GET A GOOD GRADE ONE TIME SENDING IT AGAIN SAME COIN, SAME GRADING HOUSE. IT COMES BACK BETTER
That’s a beautiful Morgan, looks mint state to me!!!! Haha that’s why I don’t do that well having coins graded. I end up just below the big bucks. It’s so expensive and frustrating.
I ordered 2 of the Congratulations sets from the mint with the sole purpose of sending them to NGC for grading. I found out through the internet, I think it was Silver Wolverine, that in order for NGC to grade them, they had to be sent to them in the unopened box from the mint. I followed these instructions and sent them off the day I received them. Then I noticed they were already available at NGC and The Coin Vault in PF70 and they had "First Strike" and "First Release" labels. I didn't check that box on my form so mine just got the standard Congratulations Set label and both of them were PF69. I was going to keep one and sell the other but since they only got a PF69, I doubt I can get my money back after paying for shipping and grading fees. Plus, I had to pay an extra $5 to have the OGP mailed back to me. Don't think I'll be doing that again. Seemed like a rip off since they got theirs from the mint long before I did.
Graders and grading is inconsistent, we count on their expertise. I prefer grading companies for identifying frauds. Grading has been in question every since I started collecting in the 1970's. Personally I am looking for color, clarity, and cleaning. Die inconsistency, metal variation all make a difference but I have difficulty how do you differentiate two equal mint state coins created in different eras. Is an example I have two 1960 mint sets in mint packaging. If I took those out and sent them for grading they would more than likely receive very different grades. Different grades from the same mints and different grades from different mints. My point being there is so much variability and I treat grades even from formal graders with a grain of salt. What would hurt the industry is grading companies grading and selling coins as that will and has led to grade inflation.
I thought graded coins were the best. My graded coins were all for a type set I started. Minimum of 62 or higher only. But getting my coins graded inconsistently just left a sour taste for grading. So I sold all the graded stuff. At the right time. Did well on my return. But would never submit or buy graded coins again.😶
Personally, I think PCGS has an "insider racket" going. Much like "insider trading" on Wall Street. Either that, or they've hired a bunch of newbie coin graders. Or stoners. Who knows, but it's exactly the reason why all my coins are still "raw." I simply don't trust them to award the grades I know I have.
People put too much value in grading. It is all subjective to a degree and the beauty of a certain coin is equally subjective. I can see the allure of MS70 coins but the sense of connection in handling a circulated coin is to me the great and true charm of collecting old coins.
Hi Daniel. Love your videos! My other half and I were having a discussion about declaring insurance when submitting coins for grading. Call us crazy but we were wondering if people are getting better grades if they’re declaring a higher amount of insurance? For instance, you declare $100 on a coin. PCGS might give you a lower grade than say if you declared that same coin as being $1,000 or more. I hope all of that made sense. :). Could you please comment?
chowmom I had the same question during my first submission to PCGS. I have a few coins that could be worth thousands More just one grade in variance. The company said that this is purely for my personal insurance and has nothing to do with the associated grade.
I think the grading companies are to the point they dont want to saturate the market with higher grade coins. Here's where the human aspect comes in. "We already have (5) MS67's, make it a MS66!"
I agree we need some basic uniform grading scale. That we can all use then of course let the pros handle it for realy valuable or rare coins. For example im not to worried about marks as much as details the letters being fully defined and wherether or not you can see Lincoln's beard and lapel and bow tie and such... To me it looks much nicer than the fact that yeah its got a few nicks but its a circulated coin ..you gatta give.. But definitely some consistency and a scale we can follow ouselfs and have as evidence of poor grading and ask for a rcount sorta speak
ABSOLUTELY, they are destroying the hobby, especially by undergrading coins, especially rarer coins. I have an 1880o , pcgs graded ms61, honestly it's a 63, very, very possible 64. I sent an 1878 8tf, pcge stated rims were shaved. I broke it out of the slab, sent it to NYC, they graded it bu details, reverse cleaned... HELLLLLOOOO.Im done with both of them. Done ,and I'm 53 yo,fairly new to collecting, less than 2 years. Now I'm gonna try Anacs, I am almost done grading coins.Another coin in that same submission came back, obverse cleaned. I sent them an email complaining, " who cleans one side of a coin? Who does that,in the same submission no less, you are giving me this grade?" I want an explanation from a manager, you lost a customer, no doubt. I never got a response.
Seems like to help eliminate human error like you mentioned someone new not wanting to give grade etc could be solved by having all coins seen by two graders.
I've seen slabs at APMEX that look terrible if I sent those coins in I'd get ms-61 or 62 they do volume so they get scratched up nasty coins graded as ms 64-ms 65 because graders make a lot of money by grading coins for apmex
Exactly, but dealers and companies know what these coins are selling for fair market, so they get a fancy numbered label, pretty box and other gimmicks to get more money.
Pcgs MS70 and it has scratches on it? I'd look up that serial number on the pcgs website to find out if thats a legitimate slabbed coin. May be a fake cause I dont see how a perfect MS 70 coin can be allowed to have ANY marks of ANY sort.
I do not know if it has hurt the hobby or not. As far as I am concerned, I began in 1963 collecting coins. When I aged and got married, had kids and a career, I put it on the backburner and lost touch with coins for years. Then I got interested again and started seeing the term slabbed coins. What? What did that mean? When I learned what all that meant, I was basically lost. I could not see myself getting all my coins graded. But then I was concerned that I may have bought some fake coins in the key dates after seeing some of your other videos. I can see a use for grading coins in that instance, to assure they are authentic. But as far as buying high grade coins, I may never be able to spend that kind of money. So, yes, it has hurt collecting for me.
I went to a coin show this weekend. Dealer after dealer set up with only slabbed coins which was nice for me to look at. I didn't buy any, I doubt I ever would.
I have been a collector for over sixty years. I have been a dealer off and on for probably thirty or more years. I have sent hundreds of coins Tao PCGS and spent thousands of dollars doing so. Obviously I wouldn’t have spent that kind of money if I wasn’t satisfied with their service. However, that was then, this is now. I can no longer agree that they are grading consistently or fairly. Recently I have decided to get back in the business since I have retired from my previous job. I purchased this 1916 Standing Liberty Quarter off of another dealer when I realized it was under graded as a PCGS FH MS 64. I have seen enough of these quarters to know the difference between a MS64 and an MS65. The first thing I did was send it in for a reconsideration hoping for a 66 but thinking it would come back as a 65. The cost to do the reconsideration was over $350. It came back as an MS64. No change. Call it sour grapes if you must but I think there is a lot more going on here than people think. When I see these high end dealers constantly coming up with super high grades I begin to wander as most of you do. If you send a coin in and use the economical service for only Twenty dollars because the coin possibly has a value of less than three hundred dollars do you think it will get a grade of MS70 making that coin now worth $3000? Not likely.
I am seeing the same thing. I even tried to call PCGS and they had already reached their call back capacity and said to call back another day. I don't know what is going on, can't even get in touch with NGC to do a bulk submission quote.
I agree. I sent my last coin to PCGS a month ago. I will no longer be using them. I don’t like being used by them. They need to be investigated by a third party.
IT's a bit late... I do like when I look at a coin auction here, and auction house listed a lower grade, but puts in the notes slabbed and by how nad what grade.
As Q. David Bowers says, 'The number on the slab is a starting point.' And that is exactly what it is, IF you have knowledge that goes well beyond just reading a number on a slab, a number that was spit out by a TPGS grader in well less than 10 seconds. Lack of knowledge is the biggest detriment resulting from TPG's. As John J. Ford (One of the greatest collectors of all time) said in 1989, as a warning against the numismatic world moving toward encapsulated coins, "For 140 years people learned how to grade their own coins, and they all got burnt when they started." This was in a heated exchange with a young David Hall of PCGS. Early on, one of the main tenets of the then budding PCGS was to protect the public from being taken advantage of. Well, *TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF* is exactly what today's modern graded bullion market modern exemplifies. But Ford went on to say that his early failures is how he learned. Ford started with NOTHING and his after his death his collection sold for over $60,000,000. *LEARN TO GRADE* and the numismatic world will open up like you cannot believe!
Fair market value is the value set by the market, minus any duress. If grading companies are making a profit and remaining in business, then there is a market for their product or service. If the consumer stops buying their product or service, the graders will be forced to modify their business model to recapture consumer confidence, or they'll go out of business.
I agree Daniel to grade coins is just to much, I love a slabed coins, it protect it , don't have to worry of dropping it ,might damage the holder but the coin is ok, you know what it is , a lot of good things, but just way too much money! Thank you again Daniel, your pupil Edward White
How about that famous guy on TV that sells graded coins below the price guide? And it seems like it is easier to get a higher grade through NGC. You bring up valid points.
Daniel great video. I have been collecting for many years. I had a lincoln cent registry set at one time. Now just proof and mint sets. Each coin is graded independently by 3 very professional graders. Then is finalized by a top grader. If you don't think the grade is correct you can crack it out and resubmit. I sent out a MS 61 1909-s lincoln cent s/s and sent in back for a reveiw from PCGS and they agreed with my reveiw and it came back 63 Red. They have bad days just like the rest of us. It's still a fun hobby. Try and enjoy it.😀
I enjoy and love this hobby. I never said they were bad, really listen to my words in this video, there's some things they need to change. i have resubmitted and got higher grades before as well. However, it's not fun when it cost more money.
I get it. Your concern about grading should be notarized with a video. Take a couple of coins you had graded on live video, and resend them off to see if they come back the same grade.
For me, the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Way too many coins being sold fraudulently, and with a slabbed coin, I know I'm not getting a cleaned circulated coin being sold as UNC. Ultimately the customer needs to be aware what a specific graded coin is being sold for. A coin will sell for whatever the buyer is willing to pay. It all comes down to customers doing their research.
Right now Ken, I'm sitting on what I know is a Top Pop 1959 Philly 6 full steps nickle with striations that are just gorgeous. I have compared this coin against other Mint State 67 and 67 plus coins. It doesn't even come close. Its way above everything I've seen graded, and I'm too afraid to send it in for grading cuz I'm not a dealer, and I know they're going to screw me!
I think they are ruining the coin market for alot of folks because of everything you said in this video, inconsistent grading, outrageously high prices to get a coin(s) graded, and no industry standard for grading from company to company. One thing you did not address is the fact that too many times people pay for the slab and not the coin in the slab. I personally will not pay a higher price for a piece of plastic. Thanks Daniel for your insight. See ya in the next video.
Yes, there absolutely needs to be a better standard for grading. There needs to be more specificity within the grade and a report card explaining why the coin was assigned a certain grade. As for the coins you are pointing to for flaws, yes, some of them have marks. However, the majority of the minute marks seen on the highest points of Lincoln's head and shoulder are not a result of mistreatment. They are remnants of the original surface of the unstruck planchet as that specific area did not have adequate pressure to completely fill the die. Most of these minute scratches are overlooked as far as marks for this very reason of insufficient striking pressure during the minting process.
The marks on these coins are not a failure to fill the die cavity with the planchet metal. These are contact marks, but I have seen planchet marks on a coin that where there before the strike and struck over, they do not ignore these on the coins I submit.
My understanding with the Lincoln cents is if they are not struck up 100% (which is virtually all of them), you will be able to see marks from the original planchet on the high points, like Lincoln's coat. Technically those marks shouldn't count against the grade. I don't agree with it, but it's often true. It does make sense in that you'll see a lot of marks on the highest points, and then very few in other places on some MS67s. I still don't think those 1961 cents are MS67s, but I can see PCGS's side of it. Someone who is paying $4K for a conditional rarity like that should be questioning those marks and looking very closely at the images before buying.
I think that the population part of grading should not matter. A 68, is a 68, no matter how many there are. And the photo grade should be date specific. If I type in a 1963 D, lincoln cent and I want to compare one I think would be a 66 graded coon, I want to compare mine to a 1963D, so that it's a real. Comparison not a 1968 or what ever it is in the same grade. It's like comparing Apple's to oranges. I agree that grading companies have taken total control of the hobby of collecting coins. It's a rich guy's club. Not fair for a working class citizen to participate in because of the cost of joining to submit coins. Thanks good video
THE FBI needs to investigate PCGS and or NGC to see if there is fraud by or with EBAY, and dealers who submit coins to PCGS, AND NGC then sell on EBAY.
The problem with videos like this is only 5,400 people have seen it our of almost 24,000 subs and as clicks decline RUclips kills it. It becomes a flash in the pan when their reach is limited like this. So sharing is very important.
I'm one of those guys that collects coins because I think they are are a great hobby and you will not going to lose any money they are worth at least worth face value but there is no way for me to be able to afford to get any of them graded. I might be sitting on a coin worth thousands but without grading no one is going to give me that kind of money. So I think there is to much hanging on the grading not just the pure great look of the coin.
How would grading work with a coa. Does it take its place ? Is their a special slab ? What about custom boxes from the mint . I imagine that a customer would want original packaging but a dealer would argue condition if it wasn't slabbed . I bought some burning queens beast . Yes I knew they where plated bullion but I dont care . What would you do ?
You ask so many questions that I am not sure what you're asking. COAs can be made up so they mean nothing and have nothing to do with grading coins. Some want original but some want the graded. I would not buy any plated coins unless they were plated from an actual mint.
@@CoinHELPu so from what I gather this mint bought the rights from the British royal mint to make these offerings. Their the only ones that I know of , their offering an " antiqued " one which is being faked . I'm sorry and I do appreciate the time . Would you personally grade these coins if they where yours ? ruclips.net/video/LG3k28wrU4Y/видео.html
Hi daniel.good morning.how are you today?my name is nicky and I am a subscriber to your channel and I'm a coin collector and have a interest in the coin world.in response to this video I do not think in my personal opinion that 3rd party coin grading companies are hurting the hobby.my dad was a coin collector and taught me alot about the hobby.he was collecting way before there was such a thing as coin grading.i handpicked around 20 coins or so to be graded from his personal collection.some coins were key coins and I wanted them authenticated to make sure they weren't fake. So I feel for that aspect it's a good thing.and all the coins we had graded were the real deal.so just wanted to share my feelings.thank you daniel.keep up the good work.just to say the dealers my dad did business with were an honest bunch.i respect them.thanks again daniel.
Thanks for you comment. I agree they help the hobby more than hurt and I relayed that in this video. Some things need fixed but some things don't, again thanks
Thank you Daniel for your outlook on this topic and the very nice reply.please keep up the good work and keep your videos coming.thanks for sharing your coin knowledge with us.nice to chat with you.
It all comes back to viewing the coin first and the holder second. If the coin is ugly to you, don't buy it or offer what you think it's worth assuming you want to at all. Those Lincolns look terrible for MS-67 Red. They really are MS-64 Reds. Why do people think PCGS is so superior to any other grading service? Maybe they're all not too good. It seems they all make grading miscalculations. Why do we need these experts when we can call them out on their failure to accurately grade?
Hi Daniel thanks for the great info as usual, Daniel I need to ask you couple of questions is it possible to email you or I should ask my question here. Thanks
I’ve watched so many videos complaining about the grading companies and how one coin can grade lower and it should have graded higher that as a newbie I just am not convinced about sending anything off for grading. Between that and the fake coins out there I wouldn’t feel convenience about my skill level. Meaning I don’t have a skill level yet. Caution seems to be the trend.
Great video. I would not buy a coin of any substantial value without it being graded. I agree some of the labels etc are ridiculous. I would not like automated grading. Perhaps some of the coins you showed had other positive factors to offset the negatives you pointed out vs the other coins? I do not find the grading Companies to expensive for what you get, human expert grading, protective capsule, and peace of mind. I have purchased coins in the past from a coin shop that were not in a slab and marked at whatever grade they deemed it to be, not one of those coins ever graded to that level.
It's actually not that difficult if the coin companies wanted to invest. Scan and data point map each coin in every grade. Put a coin in an optical scanner and a match will be made. I would start with Mercury Dimes or another coin that has very specific requirements for grading (FSB, for example). Human coin grading will always be subjective.
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When I am comparing values I show how a coin has come down from auction results in the previous years. No matter what mint mark all MS67 modern cents have dropped in value. Here's two resources to show that fact. www.pcgs.com/pricehistory#/?=2872-67 www.pcgs.com/pricehistory#/?=2875-67
When you " commoditize" anything, corruption is inevitable... The US mint needed to step in back in the 90's to speak out when awareness of the superfakes began...now anyone can copy the holder, bar code, and sell it sight unseen..Also population distortion is a reality with multiple submissions of the same coin, and those bar codes are often given to the fakes being produced ....since the original holder often gets cracked, no one knows if they have the original or a fake with the same barcode!!!!!
Yes. I did a video on that
@@guttedfish6152 very true. It's hard to know if the consensus is correct or not. A lot of people crack out and resubmit but never send the holder back in for consensus
Rule no 1. Buy the coin by eye appeal and not the holder. Because coins can be swap or mishandled. (this golden rule is always applies no matter what happens. I will come back to here later.**)
Rule no 2. Look at the grade only after the eye appeal. Because the condition applies to popular, demand and mintage. Take that 1901 Morgan as a example. I have no knowledge of I will set a case say that 1901 Morgan has a mintage of 100000 and it is graded at AU 58. And in the pcgs, because there are only say a population of 2 AU 58, then it can of course go even higher price when there is more demand and popular. But if there is no demand and popular, it still commands a high price because there are only 2 pcs in the whole world graded AU 58.
**But things get very super complicated here. Example say the AU 58 coin price is very high, the person decided to break the coin out of the holder and do a resubmission which I have always heard this problem before. Now say the whole world only have 10 au58. This will make the person with malicious intention to spoil the whole market by either package another 8 with look like au58 coin and stuffs. So there for rule no 1 applies.
If you really want to be expert in this area, alot of consideration needs to be consider and ruin the hobby. But instead always make sure what you pay for is real and you like the item will do. If people keep pushing for the prices of these graded coins, I suggest look at else where.
The only reason why these grading companies existed is because they are only here to say, hey this coin has been clean/not cleaned/error/ms70 and so on. Then the value of the coin goes up Alittle due to the grading authenticity and that is all about it (espically coins that are produce before 1970). It is always the silly sellers that say hey check this out. Ms70 mint state! Yeah. I know. I Don know how many ms70 walking liberty/china panda coins I have seen even with 1st strike. I also feel like telling them hey, ms70. Want to buy? Ha ha ha.....
The problem with videos like this is only 5,400 people have seen it our of almost 24,000 subs and as clicks decline RUclips kills it. It becomes a flash in the pan when their reach is limited like this. So sharing is very important.
Its time for computer grading, before it gets to out of hand A computer plays no favorites and has no feeling.
@@cheaplaughkennedy2318 Thanks.
Great! Great! Idea!!
@@mith.8343 Thanks
Who programs the computers?
@@Pattaya-360 Just a stander program for windows and make it universal for coin graders , so it takes the guess work out of the equation.
I started to collect coins in the 1940's. I learned early I had to be my own appraiser. I learned as much about coins as I could. My philosophy became if I liked the coin and it's price I bought it. Today, since grading is so subjective, there is no way a gaggle of coin appraisers with various experience levels can hit , with reliability and consistency, a grade of 58 or 59, or 57 on the same coin. If you don't agree with the seller's grade and price, if in doubt, don't buy.
If everyone would approach it this way
Over two years ago I took up the hobby of coin collecting, but have yet to submit any of my coins to the coin grading companies for the very reasons you point out here concerning inconsistency. I'm in full agreement with your point of view, and so glad someone is speaking of it.
It's a total RACKET!! They create and control the market - That's why usually the highest graded coins are private auction/sale and or wasn't sold. I'm investigating!
Great video Daniel! I love and appreciate your time, effort, and information! Thank you!
Thank you!
I have at least 8 coins I feel are worthy of sending away to be graded. I can’t afford to do it and pay PCGS and NGC membership fees. I think having to be a member is ridiculous anyway. Now I could probably afford ANACS but then that isn’t the best third party according to everyone including you. I understand we should have to pay to get our coins graded. Those companies are in business to make money. I get it but damn. Be reasonable about it so the average collector can afford it.
Daniel thinks that ANACS is just as good as PCGS or NGC.
Silver Slingblade No he doesn’t. And he’s said so in more than one of his videos. Either you misunderstood or heard wrong. Either way they’re not as reputable as PCGS and NGC and are known for over grading their coins. I’m not new at this slick. The same coin graded by PCGS will sell higher than the ANACS coin. Look it up on Heritage Auctions like I do and see for yourself.
I think they're as good but they grade too many modern coins for HSN and they're a bit liberal on cents, but I do think they're just as good but their grades don't sell as well.
NGC membership is $20.00, but I agree - it shouldn't cost anything.
@@scottholliday9308 it's only $20?
With all the fakes out there I like the sense of security and for resell assurances to the next person but collecting now vs collecting in the past is totally different.
Correct !!!!
And more than fakes, improperly graded coins in your collection is always a concern. Thus the popularity of Grading Services
This is my honest opinion from over 30 years of coin collecting! I believe the top Third Party Grading companies know exactly what they are doing! And they currently have way to much freedom and power to do exactly what they are doing with no repercussions whatsoever! They are grading coins to fit in the grading system exactly where they want them to be! It’s completely set up that way so they can make sure the top spots are reserved for there own personal gain! It does not take a genius to see how much those top grades are worth, if just anyone would be able to get one! Someone would have to be an idiot if they did not think the TPS’s are leveraging it for there own gain! For one thing that’s why most people send coins in to them, yes even multiple times hoping and dreaming of getting that high value grade! If an average coin collector does happen to send in what should be an incredible highly graded coin, they can instantly kill it with one of there vague details grades! Has anyone ever received questionable color, altered surfaces, cleaned, tooled, etc. with absolutely no explanation? I would actually like to see there records for graded detailed coins, I’m sure they keep them! Please don’t get me wrong, I do know there are coins with issues! But that just brings up another part of the scam! High volume big dollar dealers will get the MS60’s grades on problem coins! But the really high value top grades are reserved for the select few with the money or power to demand whatever grade they want! And another thing you can actually see in the history, those very high valuable top grades are hardly ever topped! I do believe a computerized system to grade coins would be the best thing that could ever happen for the average coin collectors wanting there coins fairly and accurately graded! Just look at the lottery for example, it is exact and winners are not chosen based on another persons supposedly opinion! Daniel, thank you so much for the best coin collecting hobby information! And Daniel you are the best thing that’s happened for the coin collecting hobby in a long time!
Good points
Totally agree Gerry!
Certainly not an expert by any means but a long time collecting and very skeptical about some of these grades and who decides what, is going in with these different grades
Daniel, thanks again for such an insightful and well thought out video. There should absolutely be someone or some entity that keeps an eye on the third party graders to make sure they're grading coins at a consistent grade. Too many times a more scratched coin is coming at a higher grade than it should be and more perfect coins are getting a lower grade then they should be, it's wrong and it's why I havent bothered to send anything off to be graded. I have hundreds of coins I would love to have graded but worry too much about the Inconsistency of grading cause like you said there Is a huge difference in value from one grade to the next. It just worries me too much to do it. Well, anyways Daniel thanks again for the wonderful and educational videos.... like I've said time and time again you are a godsend to community, keep it up please!
Thanks. CAC is the closest we have.
Send your perfect cameo coin in and pcgs send it back with a ms64 and no Cameo. Spend money to take 90%of the value of the coin away.
@@charlesjohnson5429 that's crazy! Did that happen to you?!
Thoughtful insights on a complex issue. Thanks for sharing your views.
It is too late
You can't put the genie back in the bottle
All Jeanies go back in the bottle when their Master command them too.
@@CoinHELPu Tell me WHO IS THE MASTER???
@@donnamac.6362 Who ever rubs the lamp
As I have mentioned before... I don't see how the hobby can move forward the way it is.... The youth today have so much more to interest them... and spend their money on.... I just don't see the average 22 yr old passing up a MacBook computer for a 1889 cc morgan.... If the hobby looses 10% of the interested collectors and no-one steps in to fill the void... watch out what happens to coin prices.... Just remember (as I am sure you do, but other watching may not have thought about this) That penny you showed is only worth $4000 or $400 if someone will buy it, if not it is worth 1 cent. Even stacking precious metals is a gamble... if tomorrow technology cuts into the industrial uses for silver then that price will drop. This hobby only stays alive by interested people, if the grading companies leave a bad taste in your mouth with the first coin you submit you may decide not to collect anything else. I have a full set of cc morgans which was one of the goals I started out with, but after doing this for even a small amount of time I question if I will ever be able to sell or trade these for anything near what I paid....
Good comment
The problem with videos like this is only 5,400 people have seen it our of almost 24,000 subs and as clicks decline RUclips kills it. It becomes a flash in the pan when their reach is limited like this. So sharing is very important.
@@CoinHELPu I think the point of this discussion is that whether it's Heritage Auctions or Auctionzip or whatever...that people are falling over themselves to pay these high prices...who are these people??
My Grandson sent in so many to be graded and he has had such a bad experience with
PCGS that I will never spend the money on a subscription alone. They're killing the small
collectors who just want a fair break. Totally agree With you on these grading companies.
Buy the grading books and give your best guess to see if it is worth sending in the coin to be graded. I would first look in the Mega Red Book to look at all the grading values for the coin. If it is worth being graded I will send it in. My trick is I will choose the grade below the one that I think it is. So in case I am wrong I am still ahead. I do the same thing when I buy raw coins. It does work some times but I only send it in if the grade under the one that I think. Is still worth the money.
@@christophersimpson3642 Thanks for the advice. ; D
I love your honesty. You really help collectors a lot. Anytime I can avoid some expensive missteps is a good thing. :)
There is also a large inconsistency in grading as you have described..
The problem with videos like this is only 5,400 people have seen it our of almost 24,000 subs and as clicks decline RUclips kills it. It becomes a flash in the pan when their reach is limited like this. So sharing is very important.
Good morning Daniel
Grading is and always will be subjective
And you are correct in saying there should be standards established within third party graders
The problem with videos like this is only 5,400 people have seen it our of almost 24,000 subs and as clicks decline RUclips kills it. It becomes a flash in the pan when their reach is limited like this. So sharing is very important.
The cost of grading has kept me from submitting any of my “nice” coins. Especially the membership fees. Thx for another great vid
I really appreciate your honest discussion of a tough subject. Like most things in life, grading companies have a lot of pros and cons. A graded coin is still just an opinion and ideally you should be able to actually evaluate the coin yourself and make a determination. Buy the coin, not the holder 😊
I just like coin collecting, i have coins from around the world, do i have any coins that have a lot of value, I don't know, and to be honest them having a value or price tag takes away the meaning of being a coin hobbyist, i can understand its a business for dealers, but to me owning coins is a joy, and the memory of where i got it, is more priceless than how much it cost.
This is why ancients are better. The grading is much more consistent and cleaned coins aren’t an issue
Thanks for another great video. I have been looking for a 1901-P that's under priced raw to get graded for my collection. One thing you stated a while back that I think would help a bit is creating some computer based program that uses algorithms and analytics for grading coins. I know like you have said graders can look at thousands of coins a day, I know just by personal experience over time a persons vision can become worse.
The issue in my opinion is people that pay ridiculous prices for modern condition “rarities”. When a common coin is getting more a higher price than a true rare coin there is a big problem. There a rolls of these modern coins stashed away that half the roll if the same standards are applied could get the same grade. It’s a bubble that is going to burst.
Great job as usual why don't we have computer grading that would be much more consistent,much more reliable and everyone could own one?
It’s much to expensive to send off coins for grading. I would be fine with a set price a coin but I don’t think the membership and minimum amount sent in for grading is a lot of bull. There are a lot of people who may only need 5 coins graded a year and pcgs and NGC are missing out by not allowing people to send it 5 coins and just pay. 15 bucks each or whatever to get coins graded.
Another honest video from the great Coin Master. Great going Daniel. Keep up the good work.
Daniel, when u crack out a coin from a slab, do u have to notify the grading company that the coin was cracked out? If not, and the coin was regraded, wouldnt this falsely affect the "Population Report" & subsequently & possibly negatively the price? If one thinks the population is higher than it really is, wouldnt it lower the price?
No one that I know of reports resubmits so pops are not always accurate.
@@CoinHELPu it depends on how many resubmit. If 10% resubmit then the population will be 10% greater than it actually is. Which can negatively affect the price if many do it.
There were so many things in this video that I have thought of previously which you have come rite out and said in this video so it has been great to have your thought on things, thanks Daniel.
You're welcome
As a former Non Destructive Tester for the Aerospace industry I made decisions that peices met the Standard specified...Trained Cerified and stamped every piece of my inspection. Accountable and recognized as outstanding inspector......Maybe the grader needs to be accountable. And Specs need to be specified in print.
I agree
Great point!
I don't buy graded coins. I was at a coin show and 2 sellers were talking, saying they can't sell graded coins. I wanted a flying eagle cent. Seller sold me an 1857 for 5 dollars. It's worn but I can read the date. I'm happy. I'm not spending a thousand dollars for one coin. I can buy alot of coins for a thousand dollars.
Yes
Quantity or quality is your dilemma. I prefer quality, you quantity.
@@lieutenantbears Different Strokes for different folks I'd rather sell $1,000 coin than 200 $5 coins when it's time to sell
Buy the coin not the grade.
Even though I believe that computer grading technology would create favorable standard for most people if money value is more important than a hobby itself. And unlike looking at hand prints or finger prints, I think coins, especially the ones that are in circulation, coin grading is much more complex in verifying mint marks and wear marks variations, therefore human grading is still a better way to do. I heard you said it before and that to treat coin collecting as a hobby first, and I treat my coin collecting as a hobby first. But with due diligent and patience on collector's part, the hunt for a small fortune in coins is possible.
The one thing i have noticed is in every coin group i am in, grading seems to be a hush hush topic. Everytime someone asks about how the grading process works and where to begin, almost 100% of the time it turns into "well show us what you got and "we" will tell you if its worth grading." don't get me wrong i appreciate coin input from those with experience, but most are quick to the derogatory. That can be extremely discouraging, and, no one learns anything.
Same here.
As written in another comment, i know what coins i have that will be low EF, and i know what un-opened coins might get a good AU, but just trying to get people to discuss the process is like trying to get a secret family recipe.
Ironically, that'll be it. Just wandering, why they immediatelu commented 'damaged' and/or 'scratched' whereas ( though it is clearly visible) that is NOT! SO, I'd leave the group with no second thought.. It will only ruin my aspiration.. hope you got what i mean. GOODLICK for both of us and for those who wilk venture into coin collecting. .
@@justaguyandhissilver4893 well said. That's the point. Well, I do hope that it will goes accordingly...
Not on this channel
I've started only collecting CAC approved coins because of the inconsistencies in grading you pointed out. There really is a need for a second opinion especially on coins selling in the thousands of dollars. I stay away from condition rarities especially in modern coins like the 1961 cent. Look what happened to the first 1995-W Silver Eagle PCGS PR70 that sold for $86K in 2013. Now it's worth $15K.
I focus on CAC coins too but I don't pay a premium for them, though the dealers often want one. They do tend to be better coins though I have seen a few overgraded CAC coins in holders. I've never bought a CAC coin online that I wanted to return after having it in hand to look at.
I would have a coin dealer or expert advise me if I should have a coin graded after they look at the coin in person, Thanks for the video.
I have question about 1964 D AU 55 penny, 1937 D 5 c VF 30 Details corroded.scratched , 1929 S 5c good 4. And 1951 S 1c EF 40 penny can’t find price for this coins I need a little help ,, thanks for your time
All are common coins not worth much, do and ebay sold item search ruclips.net/video/Lonn7eIQJYQ/видео.html
Grading is not popular in Australia, we have not home based service, so postage and taxes makes it too expensive.
If you put more restrictions on the grading scale I think that would help the grading company cannot grade without the scale and I think there is market manipulations going on with the grading company's now why would you pay 30 more dollars for a 70 grade 2019 eagle
Like your videos. I think Coin grading company's charge way to much per coin and for the type of coin it is ,there prices go up, I think RUclips has done a great deal of good for coin collecting, Lots of great info out there and some not so good ;)
Thanks
Hey, i am a peon here. I was left to clean out my stepfather's place when he passed away and he had a dresser drawer full of coins !! I am NOT swimming in money. What am I TO DO ??
You could try to find a reputable dealer to appraise The Collection. That shouldn't cost very much. And then you'll know what you have
@@barrysutton4589 ty, that's the problem.... Reputable.... ??? Word of who's mouth ? I dony know anyone around here so i really just don't know what to do... But TYVM😊
You can send me a list of the coins and images if I need them to portsmouthcoinshop@gmail.com
Good morning Dan: I have done research on coins already graded by NGC before I sent coins in for grading to see how many marks can be on them.
I sent in a 1971-D quarter, it was flawless; if it weren't for the D mint mark I would have thought it was a proof coin. When it came back it had scratch marks on the lower part of the bust, and you still needed a magnifier to see the damage, yet I have seen coins in worse condition graded MS68; mine came back at an MS65. When I called them about it, they wanted me to resubmit it.
And this has happened a few times, to me it's not worth sending anything in; it seems to me that they control coin population by damaging or understanding them to protect the wealthy investors. I might be wrong, but from what I've seen; I'm right on the money.
@Geo C.
I agree with you 100%.
If the coin collecting community is going to servive they need to start being honest. They are in a sence, in control! And there bias is pushing people away from the hobby.
I agree with both of you. I’ve sent in several submissions and had a few good results, but over all I could have spent that money on high grade already graded coins. It’s just too expensive. I love the thrill of the hunt but in my experience it’s cheaper to save and buy already graded coins. Or AI graded coins may be the way to go. I just hate replacing humans anywhere.😢
@@terrisuitor5441
I'm not a fan of AI! AI is created by humans, and programmed by humans.
I believe in old fashion honesty, and integrity. If people start to expose them, they will be forced to change.
Another great point Scott. There’s got to be answer to this!
I so agree on accountability of grading, maybe Daniel and others could do more comparison videos such as this one and turn the heat up!
I have also found after tens of thousands of photos that lighting makes all the difference. The lighting that I use really shows the coin and 100% color and detail and sometimes that kicks my butt.. lol
I HAVE TALKED TO SEVERAL DEALERS AND THEY SAY IF YOU CAN'T GET A GOOD GRADE ONE TIME SENDING IT AGAIN SAME COIN, SAME GRADING HOUSE. IT COMES BACK BETTER
Yes. And Yes. And when gold coins purchased that are graded in an NGC holder still turn and discolor what is the point?
That’s a beautiful Morgan, looks mint state to me!!!! Haha that’s why I don’t do that well having coins graded. I end up just below the big bucks. It’s so expensive and frustrating.
I ordered 2 of the Congratulations sets from the mint with the sole purpose of sending them to NGC for grading. I found out through the internet, I think it was Silver Wolverine, that in order for NGC to grade them, they had to be sent to them in the unopened box from the mint. I followed these instructions and sent them off the day I received them. Then I noticed they were already available at NGC and The Coin Vault in PF70 and they had "First Strike" and "First Release" labels. I didn't check that box on my form so mine just got the standard Congratulations Set label and both of them were PF69. I was going to keep one and sell the other but since they only got a PF69, I doubt I can get my money back after paying for shipping and grading fees. Plus, I had to pay an extra $5 to have the OGP mailed back to me. Don't think I'll be doing that again. Seemed like a rip off since they got theirs from the mint long before I did.
I have not sent any in because of the things I have heard from fellow collectors. Inconsistencies
Here's one for you to think about. Why hasn't anybody created an app that will scan a coin and give it a certified grade? Great video
Cost too much money and PCGS and NGC are afraid to do it or get something like that started, they see the writing on the wall.
I'm working on a project to put the collectors back into the hobby. I cant speak to much about it at the moment, still working on details. stay tuned
Graders and grading is inconsistent, we count on their expertise. I prefer grading companies for identifying frauds. Grading has been in question every since I started collecting in the 1970's. Personally I am looking for color, clarity, and cleaning. Die inconsistency, metal variation all make a difference but I have difficulty how do you differentiate two equal mint state coins created in different eras. Is an example I have two 1960 mint sets in mint packaging. If I took those out and sent them for grading they would more than likely receive very different grades. Different grades from the same mints and different grades from different mints. My point being there is so much variability and I treat grades even from formal graders with a grain of salt. What would hurt the industry is grading companies grading and selling coins as that will and has led to grade inflation.
I agree with what you say.
I thought graded coins were the best. My graded coins were all for a type set I started. Minimum of 62 or higher only. But getting my coins graded inconsistently just left a sour taste for grading. So I sold all the graded stuff. At the right time. Did well on my return. But would never submit or buy graded coins again.😶
A just had my first experience with inconsistencies in grading. I was really disappointed.
Personally, I think PCGS has an "insider racket" going. Much like "insider trading" on Wall Street. Either that, or they've hired a bunch of newbie coin graders. Or stoners. Who knows, but it's exactly the reason why all my coins are still "raw." I simply don't trust them to award the grades I know I have.
Great vid again. From dealer to dealer. Plus the get it wrong in all aspects. I have a simple 1943 steel cent that list a D when it’s a S. From NGC.
People put too much value in grading. It is all subjective to a degree and the beauty of a certain coin is equally subjective.
I can see the allure of MS70 coins but the sense of connection in handling a circulated coin is to me the great and true charm of collecting old coins.
Thanks Daniel appreciate the way you teach and care for us not to make mistakes.👍💪😎
You're welcome
Great videos and thank you for the insight!
Wondering how many coins get graded by PCGS or NGC per year and whether it's in decline or not and by how much.
Don't think there's been a decline but it's 10's of thousands
Hi Daniel. Love your videos! My other half and I were having a discussion about declaring insurance when submitting coins for grading. Call us crazy but we were wondering if people are getting better grades if they’re declaring a higher amount of insurance? For instance, you declare $100 on a coin. PCGS might give you a lower grade than say if you declared that same coin as being $1,000 or more. I hope all of that made sense. :). Could you please comment?
No, you don't get a higher grade, has not bearing at all. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Good question I've wondered that very same thing
chowmom I had the same question during my first submission to PCGS. I have a few coins that could be worth thousands More just one grade in variance. The company said that this is purely for my personal insurance and has nothing to do with the associated grade.
I think the grading companies are to the point they dont want to saturate the market with higher grade coins. Here's where the human aspect comes in. "We already have (5) MS67's, make it a MS66!"
Could those marks be die marks for the time period ?
Not, die marks are raised not into the coin.
I agree we need some basic uniform grading scale. That we can all use then of course let the pros handle it for realy valuable or rare coins. For example im not to worried about marks as much as details the letters being fully defined and wherether or not you can see Lincoln's beard and lapel and bow tie and such... To me it looks much nicer than the fact that yeah its got a few nicks but its a circulated coin ..you gatta give.. But definitely some consistency and a scale we can follow ouselfs and have as evidence of poor grading and ask for a rcount sorta speak
ABSOLUTELY, they are destroying the hobby, especially by undergrading coins, especially rarer coins. I have an 1880o , pcgs graded ms61, honestly it's a 63, very, very possible 64. I sent an 1878 8tf, pcge stated rims were shaved. I broke it out of the slab, sent it to NYC, they graded it bu details, reverse cleaned... HELLLLLOOOO.Im done with both of them. Done ,and I'm 53 yo,fairly new to collecting, less than 2 years. Now I'm gonna try Anacs, I am almost done grading coins.Another coin in that same submission came back, obverse cleaned. I sent them an email complaining, " who cleans one side of a coin? Who does that,in the same submission no less, you are giving me this grade?" I want an explanation from a manager, you lost a customer, no doubt. I never got a response.
One can only surmise but not prove they do these things, could just be a bad day and why we need AI grading.
Seems like to help eliminate human error like you mentioned someone new not wanting to give grade etc could be solved by having all coins seen by two graders.
They're supposed to grade by committee already but you know how work places are.
I've seen slabs at APMEX that look terrible if I sent those coins in I'd get ms-61 or 62 they do volume so they get scratched up nasty coins graded as ms 64-ms 65 because graders make a lot of money by grading coins for apmex
It's a crap shoot and the submitters will lose most of the time.
Thank you for the video. One could say that people are overpaying, rather than dealers overcharging.
Adam Smith
Exactly, but dealers and companies know what these coins are selling for fair market, so they get a fancy numbered label, pretty box and other gimmicks to get more money.
What I hate is: I got a coin graded a PSG70 and I see a fine scratch and I know nothing about grading! But that is unacceptable!
Pcgs MS70 and it has scratches on it? I'd look up that serial number on the pcgs website to find out if thats a legitimate slabbed coin. May be a fake cause I dont see how a perfect MS 70 coin can be allowed to have ANY marks of ANY sort.
I'm sure you're right, but you're positive the scratch is not in the holder?
I do not know if it has hurt the hobby or not. As far as I am concerned, I began in 1963 collecting coins. When I aged and got married, had kids and a career, I put it on the backburner and lost touch with coins for years. Then I got interested again and started seeing the term slabbed coins. What? What did that mean? When I learned what all that meant, I was basically lost. I could not see myself getting all my coins graded. But then I was concerned that I may have bought some fake coins in the key dates after seeing some of your other videos. I can see a use for grading coins in that instance, to assure they are authentic. But as far as buying high grade coins, I may never be able to spend that kind of money. So, yes, it has hurt collecting for me.
I went to a coin show this weekend. Dealer after dealer set up with only slabbed coins which was nice for me to look at. I didn't buy any, I doubt I ever would.
Hello my name is Milton Acevedo I found a 1955 double would I be able to sell It and created
It needs to be sent off and certified and graded.
I have been a collector for over sixty years. I have been a dealer off and on for probably thirty or more years. I have sent hundreds of coins Tao PCGS and spent thousands of dollars doing so. Obviously I wouldn’t have spent that kind of money if I wasn’t satisfied with their service. However, that was then, this is now. I can no longer agree that they are grading consistently or fairly. Recently I have decided to get back in the business since I have retired from my previous job. I purchased this 1916 Standing Liberty Quarter off of another dealer when I realized it was under graded as a PCGS FH MS 64. I have seen enough of these quarters to know the difference between a MS64 and an MS65. The first thing I did was send it in for a reconsideration hoping for a 66 but thinking it would come back as a 65. The cost to do the reconsideration was over $350. It came back as an MS64. No change. Call it sour grapes if you must but I think there is a lot more going on here than people think. When I see these high end dealers constantly coming up with super high grades I begin to wander as most of you do. If you send a coin in and use the economical service for only Twenty dollars because the coin possibly has a value of less than three hundred dollars do you think it will get a grade of MS70 making that coin now worth $3000? Not likely.
I am seeing the same thing. I even tried to call PCGS and they had already reached their call back capacity and said to call back another day. I don't know what is going on, can't even get in touch with NGC to do a bulk submission quote.
I agree. I sent my last coin to PCGS a month ago. I will no longer be using them. I don’t like being used by them. They need to be investigated by a third party.
IT's a bit late...
I do like when I look at a coin auction here, and auction house listed a lower grade, but puts in the notes slabbed and by how nad what grade.
As Q. David Bowers says, 'The number on the slab is a starting point.' And that is exactly what it is, IF you have knowledge that goes well beyond just reading a number on a slab, a number that was spit out by a TPGS grader in well less than 10 seconds.
Lack of knowledge is the biggest detriment resulting from TPG's. As John J. Ford (One of the greatest collectors of all time) said in 1989, as a warning against the numismatic world moving toward encapsulated coins, "For 140 years people learned how to grade their own coins, and they all got burnt when they started." This was in a heated exchange with a young David Hall of PCGS. Early on, one of the main tenets of the then budding PCGS was to protect the public from being taken advantage of. Well, *TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF* is exactly what today's modern graded bullion market modern exemplifies. But Ford went on to say that his early failures is how he learned. Ford started with NOTHING and his after his death his collection sold for over $60,000,000. *LEARN TO GRADE* and the numismatic world will open up like you cannot believe!
Fair market value is the value set by the market, minus any duress. If grading companies are making a profit and remaining in business, then there is a market for their product or service. If the consumer stops buying their product or service, the graders will be forced to modify their business model to recapture consumer confidence, or they'll go out of business.
I agree Daniel to grade coins is just to much, I love a slabed coins, it protect it , don't have to worry of dropping it ,might damage the holder but the coin is ok, you know what it is , a lot of good things, but just way too much money! Thank you again Daniel, your pupil Edward White
How about that famous guy on TV that sells graded coins below the price guide? And it seems like it is easier to get a higher grade through NGC. You bring up valid points.
Very important information, thanks for your video
Thank you
Daniel great video. I have been collecting for many years. I had a lincoln cent registry set at one time. Now just proof and mint sets. Each coin is graded independently by 3 very professional graders. Then is finalized by a top grader. If you don't think the grade is correct
you can crack it out and resubmit. I sent out a MS 61 1909-s lincoln cent s/s and
sent in back for a reveiw from
PCGS and they agreed with my reveiw and it came back 63 Red. They have bad days just like the rest of us. It's still a fun hobby. Try and enjoy it.😀
I enjoy and love this hobby. I never said they were bad, really listen to my words in this video, there's some things they need to change. i have resubmitted and got higher grades before as well. However, it's not fun when it cost more money.
I never thought of that. I think there should definitely be a watch dog system. Corruption can grow anywhere. Especially where there is money. $$$
From what I have seen lately, it's not worth it. Have a good day!
I get it. Your concern about grading should be notarized with a video. Take a couple of coins you had graded on live video, and resend them off to see if they come back the same grade.
I already did that
For me, the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Way too many coins being sold fraudulently, and with a slabbed coin, I know I'm not getting a cleaned circulated coin being sold as UNC. Ultimately the customer needs to be aware what a specific graded coin is being sold for. A coin will sell for whatever the buyer is willing to pay. It all comes down to customers doing their research.
Right now Ken, I'm sitting on what I know is a Top Pop 1959 Philly 6 full steps nickle with striations that are just gorgeous. I have compared this coin against other Mint State 67 and 67 plus coins. It doesn't even come close. Its way above everything I've seen graded, and I'm too afraid to send it in for grading cuz I'm not a dealer, and I know they're going to screw me!
I send mine off anyway.
Is it really the grading services or is it really people submitting a huge number of coins that shouldn't be rated?
Huge number of coins being submitted. TPGs are companies so they're not going to turn down submission.
@@CoinHELPu they do grade some but I don't think scratch,cleaned should be accepted
I think they are ruining the coin market for alot of folks because of everything you said in this video, inconsistent grading, outrageously high prices to get a coin(s) graded, and no industry standard for grading from company to company. One thing you did not address is the fact that too many times people pay for the slab and not the coin in the slab. I personally will not pay a higher price for a piece of plastic. Thanks Daniel for your insight. See ya in the next video.
Yes, there absolutely needs to be a better standard for grading. There needs to be more specificity within the grade and a report card explaining why the coin was assigned a certain grade. As for the coins you are pointing to for flaws, yes, some of them have marks. However, the majority of the minute marks seen on the highest points of Lincoln's head and shoulder are not a result of mistreatment. They are remnants of the original surface of the unstruck planchet as that specific area did not have adequate pressure to completely fill the die. Most of these minute scratches are overlooked as far as marks for this very reason of insufficient striking pressure during the minting process.
The marks on these coins are not a failure to fill the die cavity with the planchet metal. These are contact marks, but I have seen planchet marks on a coin that where there before the strike and struck over, they do not ignore these on the coins I submit.
You're certainly not wrong.
My understanding with the Lincoln cents is if they are not struck up 100% (which is virtually all of them), you will be able to see marks from the original planchet on the high points, like Lincoln's coat. Technically those marks shouldn't count against the grade. I don't agree with it, but it's often true. It does make sense in that you'll see a lot of marks on the highest points, and then very few in other places on some MS67s. I still don't think those 1961 cents are MS67s, but I can see PCGS's side of it. Someone who is paying $4K for a conditional rarity like that should be questioning those marks and looking very closely at the images before buying.
I think that the population part of grading should not matter. A 68, is a 68, no matter how many there are. And the photo grade should be date specific. If I type in a 1963 D, lincoln cent and I want to compare one I think would be a 66 graded coon, I want to compare mine to a 1963D, so that it's a real. Comparison not a 1968 or what ever it is in the same grade. It's like comparing Apple's to oranges. I agree that grading companies have taken total control of the hobby of collecting coins. It's a rich guy's club. Not fair for a working class citizen to participate in because of the cost of joining to submit coins. Thanks good video
Good points
THE FBI needs to investigate PCGS and or NGC to see if there is fraud by or with EBAY, and dealers who submit coins to PCGS, AND NGC then sell on EBAY.
The problem with videos like this is only 5,400 people have seen it our of almost 24,000 subs and as clicks decline RUclips kills it. It becomes a flash in the pan when their reach is limited like this. So sharing is very important.
I'm one of those guys that collects coins because I think they are are a great hobby and you will not going to lose any money they are worth at least worth face value but there is no way for me to be able to afford to get any of them graded. I might be sitting on a coin worth thousands but without grading no one is going to give me that kind of money. So I think there is to much hanging on the grading not just the pure great look of the coin.
How would grading work with a coa. Does it take its place ? Is their a special slab ? What about custom boxes from the mint . I imagine that a customer would want original packaging but a dealer would argue condition if it wasn't slabbed . I bought some burning queens beast . Yes I knew they where plated bullion but I dont care . What would you do ?
You ask so many questions that I am not sure what you're asking. COAs can be made up so they mean nothing and have nothing to do with grading coins. Some want original but some want the graded. I would not buy any plated coins unless they were plated from an actual mint.
@@CoinHELPu so from what I gather this mint bought the rights from the British royal mint to make these offerings. Their the only ones that I know of , their offering an " antiqued " one which is being faked .
I'm sorry and I do appreciate the time . Would you personally grade these coins if they where yours ?
ruclips.net/video/LG3k28wrU4Y/видео.html
No I wouldn't and yo're welcome
Hi daniel.good morning.how are you today?my name is nicky and I am a subscriber to your channel and I'm a coin collector and have a interest in the coin world.in response to this video I do not think in my personal opinion that 3rd party coin grading companies are hurting the hobby.my dad was a coin collector and taught me alot about the hobby.he was collecting way before there was such a thing as coin grading.i handpicked around 20 coins or so to be graded from his personal collection.some coins were key coins and I wanted them authenticated to make sure they weren't fake. So I feel for that aspect it's a good thing.and all the coins we had graded were the real deal.so just wanted to share my feelings.thank you daniel.keep up the good work.just to say the dealers my dad did business with were an honest bunch.i respect them.thanks again daniel.
Thanks for you comment. I agree they help the hobby more than hurt and I relayed that in this video. Some things need fixed but some things don't, again thanks
Thank you Daniel for your outlook on this topic and the very nice reply.please keep up the good work and keep your videos coming.thanks for sharing your coin knowledge with us.nice to chat with you.
It all comes back to viewing the coin first and the holder second. If the coin is ugly to you, don't buy it or offer what you think it's worth assuming you want to at all. Those Lincolns look terrible for MS-67 Red. They really are MS-64 Reds. Why do people think PCGS is so superior to any other grading service? Maybe they're all not too good. It seems they all make grading miscalculations. Why do we need these experts when we can call them out on their failure to accurately grade?
Hi Daniel thanks for the great info as usual, Daniel I need to ask you couple of questions is it possible to email you or I should ask my question here. Thanks
You can ask here if it's easier
Wow really awesome video!!!
Thanks
@@CoinHELPu you're very welcome!!!
I’ve watched so many videos complaining about the grading companies and how one coin can grade lower and it should have graded higher that as a newbie I just am not convinced about sending anything off for grading. Between that and the fake coins out there I wouldn’t feel convenience about my skill level. Meaning I don’t have a skill level yet. Caution seems to be the trend.
THAT WAS A LITTLE OFF TOPIC I GUESS AND I REALY UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT . THANKS DANIEL
Great video. I would not buy a coin of any substantial value without it being graded. I agree some of the labels etc are ridiculous. I would not like automated grading. Perhaps some of the coins you showed had other positive factors to offset the negatives you pointed out vs the other coins? I do not find the grading Companies to expensive for what you get, human expert grading, protective capsule, and peace of mind. I have purchased coins in the past from a coin shop that were not in a slab and marked at whatever grade they deemed it to be, not one of those coins ever graded to that level.
I agree. I buy and sell graded coins all the time, but they can be part of the problem as well.
It's actually not that difficult if the coin companies wanted to invest. Scan and data point map each coin in every grade. Put a coin in an optical scanner and a match will be made. I would start with Mercury Dimes or another coin that has very specific requirements for grading (FSB, for example). Human coin grading will always be subjective.