Comparing Music From McIntosh MC275 To 300B SET Vacuum Tube Amplifier
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- Опубликовано: 13 окт 2020
- An honest attempt, although possibly a poor one, to hear moment to moment the difference between amplifier performance.
Edit: Quite honestly, I could not hear a difference when I switched between amplifiers and I am right in front of the speakers. However, I feel certain that over even a relative short period of casual listening time of each amplifier, I would hear a distinct difference. The instant A/B test is apparently not a great way to compare amplifiers. Over a few minutes listening time, the SET appears a little "brighter" to my ears, than any of my other amplifiers 
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Wow, can't believe at my age I can still hear those small differences. Now that you've given the answer, it matches with my impressions. What I heard was when you switched from amp one was a little narrowing of the upper octaves and a bit tighter or less forward mid bass when we got to amp two. Those match with the typical characteristics of a SET amp compared to a high powered push pull, so I'm feeling pretty proud of myself. Those Tektons are pretty revealing, so that helps.
I just got a comment and watched this video again. (7-14-2024) I can't hear much if any difference in the video but I trust and respect each of your judgements. I also want to let you know the way I balanced the volume of the two amplifiers is by using pink and white noise generators I got from the Internet download and a high-end General Radio sound level meter measuring the SPL (sound pressure level), and going back and forth between the two amplifier and adjusting the volume on each. I did not adjust the volume controls using music. Even now I am amazed I was able to balance so well. I remember reading years ago that in comparing amplifiers or speakers, the difficulty is getting the volume exactly the same because the one that is a little louder will almost always be chosen as the preferred one.
And now that I am rereading all the comments below, it seems preference is about 50/50 and with extended listening I also hear more brightness in the SET and more command of the lows in the Mac. Nothing technically surprising there as it is what we would expect. Thanks for all your comments. This is where the rubber-meets-the-road as the saying goes and in the end it is all about, "how does it sound"? Best regards, David Beard
Very impressed with the switching David, could not pick it at all, still scratching my head and trying to think how that's possible.😎
I know your comment is three years old but I balanced the output by using (1) a good sound pressure level (SPL) meter and (2) by using pink noise into the amplifier that I could switch back and forth and watch the meter and listen. I comment now in case someone should read this and it might help them to balance amplifiers or outputs. I agree, it worked great. There was no trickery. Thanks.
@@ElPasoTubeAmps thanks for the reply David, never too late my friend.
Hope you are in good health and doing well.
@@ElPasoTubeAmps ... I actually had to rewatch the video again.😁
I really like the A/B box idea. I honestly have not thought of this. And here I was moving cables around quickly like a sucker!.
Does the A/B box need a load resistor in the box, for the amp that is not active? Or is that ok to not have the amp see a load when there is no input signal anyway.
Listened with phone and could not tell the difference. Loved the video!
Gotta hear it in person. I can hear diffrences in the higher end at some points, but I couldn't tell you when you switched them. I think RUclipss sample rates are interfering with the test.
I thought of making a similar switch-over box but was worried that the momentary disconnect of amplifier output during the switching would cause a back emf spike across the valves.
I am using a small 4PDT relay and it is incredible how quite the switching is. As I have mentioned, I can practically send Morse code on the switching relay and hear absolutely nothing abnormal coming from the speakers. At the volumes I am playing it at, I cannot imagine any back EMF from the speakers. If things were running at high power maybe there would be some issues as the relay contacts open. I do not put a load across the open contacts - I would need another relay for that - and that is not going to harm a vacuum tube amplifier as long as the output is low. I know some people are terrified to do this but I assure you it is OK to do at low or no volume output.
It was an easy project. I hope you build an A/B switching box and let us know what you experience.
From the human experience - and that is the catch here - maybe this is like eating only one peanut out of a huge barrel and judging the entire barrel by that one peanut. I thought I would surely hear "some" real difference particularly at the high frequency end and the difference would be accentuated by the instant back and forth but it is not there in these amplifiers.
I was so impressed with the sound of the SET after my first listening experience and it was just... Wow... to my ears and I definitely liked it better than the Big Mac (expect for the power of course) but maybe this type of test just is not legitimate for a listening test. On the other hand, I dare say any of us watching and posting on this video, could easily be fooled by a blind-curtain test where we are told five different systems are to be played all the time it is only one with slightly different volume levels, nothing else changed, and most if not all of us would fall for it. Audiophile stuff is just that goofy in my opinion - but some amplifiers do sound better than others - right? :-)
It would be better to get a local band to let you play their music and promote them.
Preferred amp 1 and hears when you switched them! Very cool!
I've made myself a 300b amp, and I really like it. I find that those reveal midrange and treble details very well. 300b's have a super neat sound. I think both of your amps are solid from what I can tell on here....... although I'm listening to your youtube video through an EL34 stereo amp I've made.
The amplifier I listen to most of all is my Williamson design using the two UTC LS-57 transformers and 7591's and 6SN7 drivers. The 300B SET is definitely charming and to put the frequency response of a 300B SET into a curve from, say, 20 Hz to 20KHz, , it will look like a hump where the lows are attenuated on the left side and the highs are attenuated on the right with the middle frequencies at the top of the hump. A proper working push-pull amplifier will, essentially, be a flat line from 20 to 20 KHZ. Also THD on the 300B SET will likely not be below 1% at most volume levels... but... somehow, despite all this technical reality, the SET 300B with no NFB will likely have a very charming sound to it. How can it be? BTW - I am an EL34 fan also.
@@ElPasoTubeAmps What about a parallel set 2a3 for say 6 watts? Have you heard compare to 300b. I like class A El84 as well.
I couldnt detect the changes every 15 seconds; but, I thought the amp that was playing at the start of each song always sounded better than the amp that was playing at the end of each song. The amp at the beginning sounded brighter and more dynamic (airy, open) than the amp at the end, which seemed a bit muffled or dull by comparison.
I think over any reasonable amount of listening time, we all would come to the conclusion that the SET was the one that has the airy, open sound. No doubt what make them so appealing. Thanks for your comments.
Did you say how you are mic’ing this such as what mic’s set in what pattern?
Does the switching box need a dummy load on the side that is disconnected (to simulate some load on the amp you cannot hear)? Clever box, I like it a lot.
A load on the output of a vacuum tube amplifier is not necessary unless the amplifier is being driven to a high level of output.
Yes the 300b is more lively and a bit brighter. The MC275 seems neutral. Both sound amazing. Thanks for doing something rarely seen on here.
Can you describe the 300B topology you are using here? Are you stacking the 6sn7 gain stages, or running the two triodes in parallel? Thanks.
The schematic is basically this for each channel (see link below) - with the exception - I load the plate into the chokes. I was too cheap to spend $$$ on SE transformers so I used the choke(s) as the plate load and then capacitor coupled them into the James output transformers (which I already had) to get speaker load impedances. Has a very nice sound.
www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/300b-schematic-recommendations.340133/
Do you sell that A/B amp/speaker box ?
Another way to do this, would be for you to record the A/B sound clips (the best way you have to do so) and make them available for download in a lossless format. My guess is, more people would hear a difference if they listened to stereo high fidelity playback, as opposed to the RUclips compressed audio on whatever their phone or computer used to reproduce the sound. I listened with my desktop system (which is:) iFI-USB, to ES9038Q2M DAC, to Tripath class T digital amplifier, to Near-field Studio Monitors.
Maybe, just maybe, I can hear some difference in the recording; specifically, the beginning of the track (n° 1 position, apparently the 300B SET) is slightly more open and lively, and then later in the track I find it becoming somewhat more dull or warm sounding, which apparently would correspond to position n° 2. This being said, I could not pick up the many switches between the two positions, and it is entirely possible that I wasn't actually hearing a difference. I was also using very average quality ear buds, which certainly may not help. Certainly, I would put it in the subtle enough category that I probably would never casually pick it up in a listing session. Then again, having done proper ABX testing in the past, I know I can perceive in a statistically meaningful manner subtle differences like distinguishing between high resolution and CD quality recordings, so there's at least a possibility that I picked up something here. Finally, like others, I do feel the audio recording wasn't very good and I fear it might make it difficult to pick up differences even before adding the chain of conversions and components between the sound as it was playing in your living room and our ears. I wouldn't be surprised that the difference between the two amplifiers is subtle enough to require being on premise to actually perceive it, or would otherwise require a better recording setup and uncompressed audio files to review (the latter would at least be easy option to do as you could simply provide in the video description a download link to the uncompressed audio clip with a Google Drive link for example).
Do you sell those switch boxes?
I'm 9:45 in, I'd say that amp one has a smidge more air on top. Without being there it's hard to listen for more than that. Only serious in person listening would allow for hearing others nuances. It's also difficult because I'm hearing so much of the room itself.
Music starts @6:52
I hear no difference, maybe the microphone used to record was a limiting factor? Or they're dead matches.
I really like those Tekton speakers, btw. Wouldn't mind a pair of those myself.
Highs seemed crisper on "A", sometimes a little surreal and "B"was mellow, sometimes slightly dull.
Over a few minutes listening time, I would describe it the same way but during the test even in front of the speakers, I could not hear it although that may just be my ears...
I hear a clearly different treble quality from each amp; amp A (your SET) sounds wide open while amp B (the big Mac) sounds more closed-in. I'd guess that without the frequent limiting from your digital recorder, the dynamic range would make it more obvious.
While I could not hear any distinct difference even in front of the speakers, I am certain over a few minutes listening time, I would agree with you that the SET was much more "open" than the Mac.
Nice A/B test, correctly performed, thank you. I've been able to hear the switch time before to be advised by you at the end of the video, listening to the samba track, the only I repeatedly listened to. Its a good evaluating track full of percussions and transients. Heard also the others, dut discarded because found them not so useful for evaluation. I wrote on paper 22", 33" and 43". My preference was, since the beginning, for amp 2 because of fuller and more rich and depth sound in respect to amp 1, too thin and bright for my personal taste. Difference are however quite subtle. Then, when knowing amp 2 was the MC275, I found that it was the typical brand sound of Mc Intosh, that I always found very musical. I listened with a cheap headphone connected to the PC. Now I go reading the other comments. Regards. Marcello Croce
Hi Marcello, thank you for your nice review. I understand what you are saying about brightness of the SET. Some people tend to say SET amplifiers have a loss of HF but not in my case possibly because, I use a 10H choke as a plate load and capacitive couple it to the matching output transformer - I don't know that for sure but just a guess. Mac amps do have their own signature sound. I have several and I find the vacuum tube amps the most pleasing. My hearing is not what it used to be, as I am 74, but I can still be sensitive to too much HF and from my limited experience, that seems to be where the SET (or at least my particular SET) peforms. Best regards, David Beard
Thank you David for your prompt reply. I can only deeply admire your work and I'm your follower since a long time. I'm 62 yo and worked in the audio field since I was teenager, mostly in the professional audio, being trained by the late Don Davis of Syn Aud Con in the early eighties when he travelled Europe. At that time I abandoned the hi fi market, focusing only to pro audio, and mostly loudspeaker system design, but acting also as a live sound engineer for 30+ years. However, the love for vacuum tubes electronics is still alive, but I couldnt be skilled enough to design or build something by myself . Curiously enough I found happily you're using Klipschorns loudspeakers, as I did since 1979 in my father house, because I liked them so much. Actually I run them with a solid state Mc Intosh Mc2100 and sometimes the big MC2500 I currently use in my laboratory. Best Regars @@ElPasoTubeAmps
I could easily tell the difference in detail and clarity. The set amp was more focused and clear sounding. Even over my laptop speakers it was apparent when the set amp was playing.. I totally nailed it.
I don't think a YTube video will be able to demonstrate depth of field, three dimensional imaging, tone, and the general essence of being, that a SET is capable of portraying. I have never heard the Mac amp so I can't comment. However the part about not getting into the caps. Do you know when it was last capped? Can make a world of difference.
300b SET the way to go. Very involving sound. Thanks for this very informative video. Stay safe and God bless.
For me at the 15 second mark and 45 sec mark it got clearer, more detail in the highs
David, thanks so much. Perhaps the Mc had a little more "authority" in the upper and mid-bass but the SE was ""cleaner" - a bit subjective, as we all know. Quite hard to tell the difference, really. What this video serves to illustrate is that: 1) use superior components 2) use a tried-and-true circuit design, then tweak it 3) let someone like David Beard and his amazing talents loose with a soldering iron and you end up with an electronic component worthy to compete with anything in the high-end audio market. The A/B box is stellar.
Thank you.. indeed, the A/B box was quite a surprise. I expected to clearly hear the cleaner (?) (possibly a little more accentuated ?) upper-end of the SET over the Mac but in this type of test I do not hear it. Also, when comparing the Dynaco to the SET I definitely expected to hear a clear difference as the Dynaco is known for a much lower high-end response and I clearly hear that when listening to it for any length of time. Maybe our ears have an "ALC" type response you would have in a communication receiver and it takes some time for our ears/brain to adjust and by the time they have adjusted, it all sounds the same. This thinking is probably just as flawed as the idea that the A/B box would demonstrate immediate differences in amplifiers. Honestly, I can not tell which amplifier is playing, i.e. the McIntosh or the Williamson at any length of time listening to them. A properly set up Williamson is as good as they come for a home audio system in my opinion, as long as we don't need more than 20 watts or so. Oh well... it is still fun to try. BTW - I have turned my gaze towards my ham radio lately and am letting the audio hobby rest. The SV572-10 SET is so heavy, I injury my shoulder trying to move it a round - of course, a Collins R-390 is only about 85 pounds... LOL...
@@ElPasoTubeAmps I have been very impressed with amps upon first listening only to find them annoying after awhile. This is particularly true with most transistor-based amplifiers. I don't have to know they're solid-state, beforehand. After an hour or so, I just want to turn them off. But some amps, just sound better the hotter they get (slow cooking, I guess) Some of my favorite amps are copper-chassis, old Motorola home stereos with open-frame, paper-wound transformers, out-of-spec carbon comp resistors and questionable coupling caps. Limited bandwidth and all, I can listen to them for hours. That's why old McIntoshs and Dynacos and old EICOs and Heathkits and Knight Kits and the like are so satisfying. No listening fatigue. That's the secret to good audio - lack of listening fatigue. I am looking forward to your radio videos. But I am not alone among your 13K+ subscribers who need your audio guidance, too :-) Thanks so much, David. Good stuff, as always.
SET power amp plus DHT preamp wow that’s a killer
Listened three times. Moderately priced ear buds, MacBook Pro.
For me, the 300B SET had a larger sound stage and was just a bit more detailed which surprised me, since I was expecting the Mac to be more detailed.That said, they both sounded great.
Thank you. I appreciate your thoughts and comments on this. I refused to believe in the nice sound of SET amplifiers for a lot of years. I have been building amplifiers for well over 50 years both RF and AF and I just thought it ridiculous to believe in the SET sales pitch. I guess it was technical arrogance on my part. I am a measurement geek to the bones and they just don't measure out like a good push pull amplifier. It is mostly a coincidence I built this amplifier as I just happen to have two beautiful James matching transformers and two matching high inductance chokes with high enough current rating so, I figured I should try it if for nothing else, a RUclips video. Needless to say, I was very surprised and pleased. I still am. I built this shunt-fed design as I had the parts, as mentioned, and did not want to spend $$$ on some supposedly exotic SE transformer just to waste my money. Anyway, the 300B SET is very charming and 6 watts or so per channel is enough to enjoy any kind of music. LF and HF response is amazing for the power level and sometimes as I and my friend have listened and compared, who is professional musician and owns a McIntosh 225, the little SET truly ranks right at the top of listening quality of any amplifier certainly including my 275. Sometimes I think it is the mid-frequency clarity that makes the SET so "alive" and "present" sounding.
@@ElPasoTubeAmps I always thought SET would always be superior to push pull class A as SET more simple circuit with no negative feedback.
@@klepp19 The simplest circuit isn't always the superior one but over the years I have to admit that thru my own experience and the experience and comments from a large audience on RUclips, I have realized the way we experience sound (music reproduction) over electronic equipment, be it vacuum tube or solid state, it is as unique as anything in life. Absolute perfect performing amplifiers can be described as sterile and harmonic filled amplifier may be described as "full". One thing for sure is, even a 10 watt SET amplifier can be a challenge to build and keep the THD reasonable and sounding acceptable whereas a push-pull amplifier - the sky is the limit to how much power you can develop.
@@ElPasoTubeAmps Thank you for your reply! I own Cornwall IVs so I will only use tubes. 20 watts max. One day I may splurge for a smaller Jadis integrated or stick with 300b or 2a3 monos.
You're not announcing when you switch amps during the song, so how are we to judge? Besides, much of the music is overdriven so we can't tell how much distortion is being produced.
Now at eleven minutes in, I'd say that amp two has a little tighter control over mid bass, or that the bass is a little more recessed on amp two.
a trick : watch movies on flixzone. Been using them for watching a lot of movies lately.
@Ruben Camdyn Yup, I have been watching on Flixzone for months myself =)
@Ruben Camdyn Yup, I have been watching on flixzone for since december myself :D
I could hear it, I might have noticed the Mcintosh MC275 in the last 15 seconds of the first song.
The ONLY difference i THINK I heard was the SET was just a VERY LITTLE brighter... and I mean a VERY VERY LITTLE difference.
And I thought you switched at 10 second intervals, so my observations are NOT good since my timing was not correct.
I would be happy with either one!
One thing.... maybe set the camera to manual focus so it doesn't keep hunting.
GREAT demonstration!
Thank You.
There is no designation which amplifier you are using especially shown on your video. How do we know which one is which?
Sounded the same to me, can't say what factor was the cause. Does your camera allow you to change how it focuses in settings? If it does, maybe try manual focus, or spot focus settings for your videos. It almost seems to be in a sports mode, where it focuses on movement. In this video the camera reacted to the DAC display movement. That is probably the worst setting for your style of RUclips videos.
I rarely use this camera but I did see what you mean and I agree that it was probably trying to stay focused on the moving screen on the DAC. I will make sure I test the settings before I use this camera again for videos. I chose to use it this time as it seems to have a much better sound playback than the little Leica.
Didn’t hear any difference. Or should I say Notice any sound difference. Tq, I enjoy comparing sound test.
I spend all day, every day with repairs and design of pro audio gear and truthfully, the sound out of both are indescribable. I hear the influence of various microphone dynamics more than a difference in amplifiers.
To me, home hifi is largely academic and you should listen to gear which makes you feel good. Doesn't matter if its a $20 cheapo from a flea market.
As for macintosh amplifiers. Meh, they are overpriced status symbols and your amp is built in a far superior fashion. Proper parts with no brandwashing. Kudos.
Sorry if this comes across as harsh or demeaning. It's not. I'm only attempting to convey to hifi fans one simple thing. As producers or recording engineers, they create a sound coloured with their ideas on the day. No recording is ever pure as people like to think. It's eq, compressed, rolled off and so on. Sometimes we even use a crappy microphone because it has a certain sound or limited ability for clatity at some frequency ranges.
Forget about hi profile names, they are filled with a healthy dose of audiofoolery and an excessive prices.
Excellent work man! Keep it up and I'll keep watching
I think your comments are right to the point. Really appreciate your thoughts.
Occasionally, I find something that really thrills me and then I say that I will set-back and relax and enjoy. That happened with the 300B SET. Then I have to measure one more thing. It is my curse. Obsession, to a point, can be a "good"(?) thing and it drives improvements forward but it also leads to madness. LOL... As I talk with a few of my friends the subject of obsession can come up sometimes regardless of the profession. We seem to like to think we are somewhat "O" but not "CD"...
I really appreciate your comments and I will consider relaxing and enjoying... however a still have a Dynaco ST-70 that I have to test... :-)
All nonsense aside - it has become obvious to me that instantaneous switching from one system to another in mS is just not long enough for our brain to adjust. I thought it would highlight the slight nuances of different amplifiers but the nuances are 99% the same and it seems without us knowing that the change is coming, we are likely to simply miss the point. Unless there is some very distinct difference in amplifiers/systems, the A/B box serves little purpose. Just too analytical for human consumption.
Well one thing about Mac amps.... they are "pretty"! With the blue lights on black faceplates and chrome chassis and black xfrmr cans and power meters, although I like meters!
They do have a very wonderful sound, IF you don't have to pay the price for the glamor!
Their design is superb and the components are top notch, but I wouldn't pay the high price for the name and chrome/blue lights.
Kind of like PS Audio... overpriced and over rated, I think!
@@pomonabill220 Their new price is absurd for sure, but I can say that even after 60 years, odds are, they still work and likely meet their original specs. I had a MC75 brought to me a few years back that looked like it thru a world war but it worked great. The good gentleman I checked it out for sold it on Ebay for, I believe, well over $1000. If I could say only one thing about McIntosh amplifiers it would be that they are usually Powerful... if your speakers and your ears (and neighbors) can take it, they can loosen the nails in the wall with little to no distortion.
@@ElPasoTubeAmps I suppose it's a different world to mine and i probably don't appreciate it as much I should. Working on a 10,000 or 20,000 watt amp is a usual occurrence on the bench so Have a look at the innards of an outline T10 or Powersoft K10. Th design, efficiency, power is astounding and all in a 1 RU high housing.
Suffice to say, headroom is off the charts.
One thing I'm playing with in the lab for fun is a class D amp using thyratrons. Only a bass amp obviously as they won't switch at 250kHz like a mosfet.
Love your channel and will keep watching every ep.
@@gwyllymsuter4551 You do work in a unique world and I hope you appreciate it. It will pass faster than you think. My first 26 years of work was with NASA and White Sands Missile Range. I knew it was a special time and place I was experiencing and the work was long and hard sometimes and very stressful with long hours. But I knew I loved it even then and would just stand in front of all that equipment and just go, wow... I wish I could do it all over again.
I never knew there were such amplifiers as that K10. I just looked it up. It would take 230 volts at 50 amps to run that thing at full power. That is some pretty unique equipment. I remember 40+ years ago when I was a bit younger and was working with an older fellow and I was probably rushing around and he stopped me and reminded me that the most important thing every day was to go home with all our fingers and toes intact. He just wanted to slow me down a bit. I guess I will always remember that.
Stay safe around all that equipment and have fun.
Sounded the same to me..:)
I did not notice any difference. But I am listening through a cell phone.
I could honestly here a very slight difference in the low end the top ends in my opinion were very similar maybe a hair different in the extremes of the register but honestly I could hear a touch more fullness on the low end on the mac's but to be honest I amazed how similar they were some people said the 300 be was more airy but to be honest I thought the Mac had some more airy parts especially when that like sprinkle sound was going in the first song but the 300 had its moments of clarity as well the top end was too close to call the mid too only the low end and it was only there If you were really listening they both sound damn good. Just goes to show that single ended triodes are not the end all be all of tube sound any tube amp that has decently low distortion just sounds good I wish I was able to hear them in person what did u hear when switched could hear whati heard did you notice more than I did on the top its kind like trying to feel the sensation of a Corvette but your trying to do it with a youtube ford pinto lol
I love tube amps I have some modified magnavox quad 6v6 mono blocks I might put up a demo of them playing they put out 35 watts each and I'll tell u they simply amaze me everytime I listen to them I got an old mcmartin studio pa amp with 7027s rated at 65 watts and it too sounds amazing I got some home builts with huge transformers I pulled out of a bogen 75 watt pa amps with a quad 7027s with 600v on the plates and those things on my big pioneer 903s and akai 175s wired in parallel on the 4 ohm tapps with both mono blocks and 8 7027s pumping is sheer elation comfortably numb literally gives me goose bumps and my neighbors nosie complaints watching your videos inspires me I got plans to try to wrap a set of my own transformers and make multi layer wraps with alternating primary and secondary layers I found a set of 500w line matching transformers I was gonna re do maybe customized 2.5k for some huge sweep tubes I got or some of these big transmitting tubes I got i even have some of external plate little ceramic tubes that have that special socket and external heat sink they Mount too they call for 5k plate to plate they will handle over 600v and I think 500 on the screens just two put out well over 120 watts without even pushing them anyways love your work
As I sit here listening to this setup again, I can hear a difference when I know which amplifier I am switching to. That is cheating, isn't it? :-)
I thought the instantaneous switching would easily reveal these subtle differences but it does not. If one amplifier was significantly different from another, I think we could easily hear the difference. In my listening honesty, the SET is a little brighter on the high end of the scale and possibly a very slight bit heavier on the low end as compared to the Mac 275. But I don't think anyone would throw either out into the alley...
I thought the SET sounded warmer and clearer.
Hi Bill,
I have been listening to my Williamson design amplifier using the UTC LS-57 transformers and 7591 output tubes for a year or more. I have to say it is my favorite, even more than the McIntosh 275, but just last night I swapped it out for the 300B SET and I definitely hear a difference. I could also describe the SET as warmer as you mentioned. I think it has a little more low frequency boost and slightly less high frequency than the 7591 amplifier. Because of my age and a bit of loss of high frequency hearing, I tend to like the 7591 Williamson the best. Thanks for your comments.
I've recorded this to share how it sounds to me. I've verified over headphones that it is close to what I hear in person thru my monitoring setup. Cameras often have a multiband compressor and it evens out tonal balance. Also there's this granyness to the high end. There's so little difference to hear but I think second part of the tracks sounds flatter. I'm hoping it's an set amp because I can usually smell the PP crossover from outer space.
ruclips.net/video/ePxiFVW-SoU/видео.html
Haven’t heard the end and I can’t tell exactly when the switch is. To me, having listened to SET 300B amps I could hear that the 1st one was a SET Amp. Bass not as full, more “space” between the instruments in the mids and highs, a sound I’ve heard before in SET amps. That being said, the music sounds like music. It wasn’t a clear difference when it was switched as these are subtle differences. When I do active listening in my home audio system I enjoy listening for these subtle differences, and the midrange clarity of SET amps is a nice subtle feature. Does it really matter, no. But I’m an audiophile geek. Otherwise there are plenty of great sounding active speakers or even amazon, google, Sonos, or Apple offerings that I totally can respect if someone listens more as background to those.
I agree with your assessments of the slight less bass, and a very alive mid and upper end with the SET. I think that is the characteristic most of us like in the SET. This A/B test did not prove out the way I expected. I expected to hear these subtle differences you describe even more so with the A/B testing but it did not work out that way for me either and I am setting right in front of the speakers. I am convinced that a ten minute listening session would reveal a difference that most anyone would notice.
No difference thru my cornwall 3's ST120 and VTA Sp14 SMSL500 DAC
Well I really really could not hear when you changed the amplifiers, and I've been listening to many videos of late and have been able to mostly tell the differences Maybe it would have been better to play 1 min and the start the song again with the other amplifier, unless we were really meant to judge your switching box On the last song I felt I heard a little more body on the second half of the clip, but now I don't know whether it was in the first 15 seconds or the second This could have been a great demonstration but I feel you have changed the rules while we were listening and I assumed (wrongly) you would start the song again when the amps were changed
Thanks anyway for your efforts
I thought this instant changing would accentuate even the tiniest nuance in the music since we could A/B hear the two one after the other. Didn't work out that way for me either right in front of the speakers. I agree it might be better to hear a minute or so of each one and then I think we would begin to hear differences, as we would expect.
No, I could not hear the difference on YT. In real life, possibly...but absolutely not through the mic of a video recorder.
I have the same RME dac 👍
I really like this DAC. It apparently applies the Munson Fletcher curves so that low volumes sound good.
Years ago people conducted these kinds of tests and proved most listeners could not tell a difference. Now, it looks like nothing changed. So, it's a strange thing that audio folks still worry sound could be improved with expensive gear.
I like the term, "there is nothing new under the sun". I actually expected to hear some small difference between the SET and the Dynaco ST-70. Dynaco's seem to have a reputation for having less highs and the SET is nice and bright. Quite honestly, the high frequency brightness and appeal of the SET is harmonic distortion. Distortion makes amplifiers sound louder and sometimes more appealing. Think of the sound of communication between jet fighter pilots and communications with the ISS and virtually all voice based audio. The distortion is probably 10% or higher accentuating the high frequencies and attenuating the lows. Our ears and brain just hear it better... In any case, the test is what it is, a test, and what it proves is likely to be different for different people. Thanks for your comments.
Yes I could hear the diffrence
In a few minute session of listening, the sound is different from the SET to the McIntosh. I think anyone would be able to hear that but I thought instantaneous switching would be the cats-meow way to hear these subtle difference. Apparently not for most of us. And I believe you, Brian. I have a musician friend that I bet could pick it out every click of the relay but I can't and then throw all this over the Internet and recorded on a camera - well, it is fun to try. Stay safe...
Yes there is a difference. The 300B SET amp has a more full "presence," and was slightly more dynamic. The SET made the MC275 sound "flat". I *think* it could be a matter of accuracy. The MC275 is carefully designed to yield excellent numerical specifications, which should translate into neutral sound reproduction. The SET was probably refined by ear. Bose Acoustics learned years ago, that a little "coloration" can attracted buyers. I believe a little variation from perfection, can sound more natural. We were not raised in an acoustically balanced environment. I have heard many logical reasons why a SET amplifier is inferior, yet... many of us, myself included, hear magic from them.
Jim, I think what you say is well stated. From a musical recording, whatever it might be, thru the perfect amplifier to speakers, would not seem to please us as well as going thru an amplifier that adds that bit of coloration you speak of. Maybe it is like vegetables thru a frying pan, adds some spice and taste during that transition. If this were not true then "perfect" performing solid state amplifiers would be all we would want. However, the harmonic profile (distortion) added within the vacuum tube power amplifier, and the voltage amplifier stages of the preamplifier, are artifacts that we like, otherwise, the vacuum tube amplifier would have gone away long ago, kind of like the CRT. The SET is special, as flawed as it obviously is.
Couldn't hear the switch, but did prefer the end of the song every time.
I did not dectect the amp swithed every 15 seconds, but I do realize that the amp started the music is lacking some of the bass. The music at the end make more sense to me with the added bass.
Listened with my phone, BT connected to speakers in my Prius.
My lg3 phone can not do justice to the horrible selections from RUclips music.
I have a 275 and a 9 watt 300b. Played into proper speakers and preamp each has merits.
Tube selection and your ears will inform you what you like.
Paul, that is nice to hear you have both amplifiers and feel the same way. I agree with your comment of tube selection in the 275. In my "listening mind" tube selection does make a difference particularly the first 12AX7. As I think this thru, I am about to come to the conclusion that this brutal A/B approach is not the best way to evaluate an amplifier - all other equipment staying the same. Got to live with it a little while and let the nuances sink in before making a decision. But this has been an eye-opener for me.
You know if you changed the caps in that mc it would sound so much better lol just kidding I envy your collection I have a money pit collection myself lol
Hi Jason,
Our money pit collection... isn't that the truth. I think I have just about had it building amplifiers. I have been doing for over 50 years. Maybe now I can just sit back and enjoy the music.(not a chance...) I built the SET just for something different and used the chokes as plate load and the James transformers for impedance matching because I had them. I have to admit, the SET sure sounds good to me but it can't be heard in the instant A/B testing.
In a noise type of music like heavy rock and drums...no huge difference at all. ...But if you played an acoustic vocal ...SET wil shine.
Could hear No Difference
I could not hear the difference
Amplifier A was brighter. Amplifier B was a bit subdued
I heard absolutely NO DIFFERENCE.
I only hear the difference when I know which one I am listening to. That makes the test invalid, doesn't it?
I expect the SET to be a little more "airy" at the upper end and that is what my brain tells me I hear when I know I am listening to the SET.
On the other hand if I am not sure which one I have switched to (I can put the controller behind my back and twist it around so I do not know which amplifier I am selecting) I believe I tend to come up hearing the 275 sound a little more airy at the upper end. Reality and our brains just don't seem to mix very well. :-)
Isn't this test pretty much invalid to hear, when listening to it reproduced on equiptment thats lower grade than whats being output , digitally compressed, etc..... you'd need to hear it in person or have equa tol or superior equiptment and signal.to hear the difference.
It’s a tough call. The room makes playback a bit bright so the nuance to discern what’s what is lacking. I have both a Line Magnetic SET and a Mac 275. Much easier to discern in a more controlled environment but regardless appreciate your effort.
BTW Love your Tekton’s! I own a pair of Encores and love Eric Alexander’s latest and greatest offerings featuring the MTM array.
Happy listening! 🙂
Number 1 was more refined sound, more clean.
Nope. 300 b amp's sound is vg! Cheers!
I'm not interested in stereo at this point, quality is more important
I agree. In my workshop I have two speakers for a stereo setup but at this time, I drive it with a mono amp. Sounds great. My uncle told me around 60 years ago that stereo was like having a front row seat to the orchestra and mono was like a balcony seat. Instead of sound coming a bit from the left and the right, the balcony seat has it coming right in front of you. That is one way to look at it and is just as good.
Sorry i can’t recognize anything. It is chaotic with a lots of comments long delays and you always start different music not a same part for both amps
Honestly the sound from the camera is very poor so it's impossible to tell much. It even sounds like it's clipping the camera sound recorder.
Yeah this is useless. He's recording the sound from those speakers through his webcam mic then uploading it to YT. Plus if there was any difference in the sound it would be measurable. If the frequency response, distortions, amplitude and phase are not different, then it's all down to listener bias and expectations. The only way to do true meaningful evaluations is by double blind listening tests backed up with measurements which most rich money spending audiophiles hate because they reveal they just wasted their money on something that just doesn't deliver.
@@davidlong1786 Wasting money is exactly the thing here. No doubt the camera did not do perfect justice to the sound and the experiment but I hear no difference either no matter how loud or soft I play it. I did this experiment to see if you guys would think you heard a difference. I do the best I can with what I have but when I first listened to the SET I was "blown away" by its ethereal sound. I was impressed beyond my expectations and I found the 275 as compared to the SET as sounding rather dull. This is why I built the A/B switching box and had to show you guys, as imperfect as the setup was, a lot of this "sound" is in our head and we are very absolutely sure of the huge difference between pieces of equipment except when it can be switched in milliseconds. Then it is hard to deny that they pretty much sound the same. Other experiments similar to this one often times comes out where the audiophile listening audience actually prefer the cheaper equipment.
@@ElPasoTubeAmps I agree that the 300B amp sounds more alive than the 275 although you just can't hear that through the video. It is often theorized this is due to the zero feedback characteristic of triode amps. Pentode/tetrode amps don't allow for that or don't if you want to have reasonably low distortion.
@@meshplates Mark, I agree with your assessment. I tried one of my Williamson amplifiers with no global NFB and it was terrible. I have reduced NFB to levels like 12 dB and it is great in the Williamson. After about 16 dB or so, strange things can/may start occurring in a Williamson design. The SET is very much "alive" sounding and is likely to be a little bit more thrilling than the big Mac 275 but all-in-all they are all so darn good, it is hard to criticize any of them. I generally don't listen to music over 90 dB SPL anymore but I do like an amplifier that can deliver 110 dB SPL with no issues and that is where the 5 watt SET starts to fall apart and the 275 is still in idle.
I realize now that instant flipping back and forth is not the best way to asses an amplifier. It takes our head a few minutes to adjust or maybe I just have a slow CPU...
I have a Dynaco ST-70 in line now with the A/B box and I can hear a difference. It is not good or bad, just slightly different and the ST-70 has less high end (in my listening opinion) and may be what people with more sensitive hearing would prefer.
I started a video tonight but it got too complicated and my battery ran down, etc... maybe tomorrow.
The listening environment is a little too lively to definitively nail the qualitative differences IMO. But it’s FUN so I appreciate the effort regardless.
No difference for me, 64 years old ears
Music is awful. Very hard to sit through any of the tracks. I could not hear the difference. I appreciate the effort though.
The music selection is bad.
Do you spend 4000.00 on a 275 or buy a 300B amp for around 1000.00 , I guess it depends how mutch your friends will be impressed with the name Mac. Not me..
I spent $350 on the Mac in 1976 when everything made of vacuum tubes was considered junk and have kept it running perfectly ever since. I don't care who is impressed.
Not all 300B SETs are the same. McIntosh makes some fabulous gear. And it all depends on the type of sound and component synergy you are going after. I currently use a DHT 300b line stage coupled with Gallium Nitride (GaN) based class D monoblocks-best of both (SS/tubes) worlds...
Terrible! Put me off all the TUBES! At least you could have pointed out when you change. I could hear no difference at all. And the taste of music! 👎🏼
A lot of BS.
The SET blows away the 275; detail & presence is better even with the sub-par music source.
seriously stupid way to review amps
Painfully horrible music, too bad!!
🙂 I think we should be allowed 60 seconds of whatever music we choose to demonstrate equipment but YT doesn't allow that without a royalty violation.
Amp B for me. The A amp sounded distorted and headache starter.
Apparently, you are a fan of the SET over the Mac 275. It is a matter of preference and I can understand that. There is something charming about SET amplifiers over THD purity. I tend to think of if like preferring sauce on your steak over no sauce. Thanks for your comments.
One of them played cymbals a liiitle bit better then the other. They sounded more natural. As a real metal plate. This is maximum what I can say. In my BD990 I could merely hear a difference.