It’s pushing more power to your house battery thus enabling a better stop start function. We have had this on our transporter works all the time now with our renogy dc/dc charger. Again great content cheers
@@sccobyste hi Steve, I don’t think I have the email but will double check. I got the cable from Simply Split Charge (as have found the quality to be good from there after having my ‘hands burned’ with some cheaper stuff in the past - think it was just under a fiver a meter so silly money nowadays.
Great video! Thank you for sharing! Can you show a picture of the final battery connections? Also have you seen where they connect directly to the alternator, if so what’s the difference? Thank again!!!
I connected o the battery rather than alternator, I don’t think there would be too much difference except if you drew lots of power. Will see if I can find a photo… assume vehicle battery? If so it’s a spare terminal on the fuse connector with a MEGA fuse. All the best, David 👍
Thanks, very detailed video! I would suggest you could do a separate playlist of explaining things in 3 minutes , as in fact 24 minutes is way too much to watch :) and short one would link to long at the end - for those who needs more info on the topic :)🎉🎉🎉
Hi David, I'm about to fit a Victron B2B (new 50A version) when it is released in the next few weeks. Your video doesn't show the actual connection to the battery (at 18:43). I'm wondering how you connected it with a fuse. Any chance you could take a photo of the connection on the battery.
Yes of course, I think I have one in my photos somewhere, I used a mega fuse on the spare terminal on the edge of the fuse array connected to the positive terminal if that helps too (60A I used) and drilled a hole in the battery box and popped a grommet in to feed the cable through as I ran underneath.
@@LeisureBit that would be great if you could find and post the photo. I can't see how you would connect to the spare connection on the fuse array with a bolt as there doesn't seem to be any room to get it in. Did you use a fuse holder for the mega fuse.
@@LeisureBiti also have the same issue. Your video is very comprehensive but misses the technical part of fitting the fuse and cable at the engine battery end. Can you provide a photo or video of how you did that ? Thanks
Great video, I'm looking to install one in my overland set up. Can you tell me if the circuit breakers were higher or lower amperage than the circuit breakers? This seems a better idea than battery isolation switches...
Thank you - I’ve found the breakers a bit hit and miss - worth getting the decent ones rather than the cheaper ones - they are handy as isolators too - I went just under the fuse rating so hopefully they would trip and the fuse is for additional protection 👍
Hi David have been watching and rewatching your informative videos on changing to lithium batteries, solar, dc to dc etc your help has been invaluable. I am just about to fit my Victron DC to DC charger but can’t find where you have picked up the ignition wire is there one on the original blue charger and how did you disengage the original charger after installing lithium etc as I’m not sure. Thanks keep up the good work. Vince
Hi Vince - yes, that’s right it was already connected to the original B2B (d+ connection) - it is available from the Fiat converter connector I believe which is in the drivers side door pillar base on ours - Not sure if that helps? All the best, David 👍
Thanks for your prompt reply David it’s appreciated. Basically what I’m asking is if one of the wires from the blue original charger to connect the dc to dc ignition cable from the Victron charger and I’m not sure what to do with the cabling when I disconnect the original charger. Thanks for your help
@vincenteblacker783 with mine I just left it as it’s then fed without that so put a plastic cover on (or you could put some tape on) and then the wires from the charger go back to the battery, bypassing the elddis electrics (hope that makes sense).
Cheers David, I put in an isolated dc2dc but replaced the existing dc2dc. However, I ran off the convertor links in thd driver b Pillar with new heavier cabling as the cabling was really lightweight for the 30amp draw. In respect of the stop start, like you I have the intermittent activation. However by disconnecting the sensor from the battery (20 mins no power) you reset the s/s system. Alas in two days time it stops working again. I like the theory of the common earth and will review the wiring I have (should be simple to do a common earth despite the isolated dc2dc version I have). Thanks for the video.
Thanks Barry, really interesting observation on disconnecting the negative, last time I did it for the tow bar electrics had no impact. Know what you mean about the cabling 😒 Do let me know how you get on, will update if the start stop goes intermittently again. All the best, David 👍
Hi David Fantastic video. I was wondering how you connected the D+ connection alternator wire? I have a fiat ducato 2022 with stop start. Love the Chanel.
Thank you, really appreciated. The D+ was handily connected to the b2b which was installed when I got the van. Not sure if you have a converter connector in the pillar behind the drivers door as you can pick it up from there? If not you may need to pick it up from either the alternator or another point. Hope that helps? All the best, David 👍
Great video! Quick question, in the manual diagrams the 60 amp fuses are always pictured near the battery terminals, does the position of the fuses matter at all? Thanks!
Thank you - yes, the position does matter for the fuses, I fused at both ends which some would consider excessive but wanted to protect both ends of the cable. The fuse on the vehicle battery is attached to the distribution block on the top of the battery, there is also another fuse in the fusing onto the leisure battery in addition to the ones near the Orion. Hope that makes sense, the important ones are near the battery. It also gives extra protection in the event of a faulty fuse or other odd scenarios which are unlikely but could occur. All the very best, David 👍
Hi David we have an interesting one we drive and the leisure battery seems to discharge turn the van off and it starts charging via solar so actually doing the opposite need to check the onboard b2b and if an issue remove and replace
Wow, that doesn't sound right does it - is it wired up correctly do you know? Sounds like it's got the vehicle side connected to leisure and vice versa perhaps. Let me know how you get on. All the best, David 👍
Excellent video friend, super intuitive keep helping us with your explanations. As for Start stop, here in Brazil we usually make two to three auxiliary negative points coming out of the battery and connecting to the vehicle's chassis. The ground line becomes more efficient. 👍
Hi David, love your videos by the way. I have an all powers power bank and need a way of charging on the go but quickly, using the 12v power lead would take 10 hours from flat. I was thinking a 60amp B2B, this will put in 650/700 watts PH. My question is can I piggy back off my existing B2B to power my second B2B charger (can I use the power from the first one) thanks in advance
Good afternoon, you would normally run an additional cable to a second B2B if it’s drawing a high current - assume the power bank has an input which will take a charge bigger than the 12v lead which you would use? How large are the cables to your existing B2B and what power is that one? (Might give an idea on any spare capacity) All the best, David 👍
It looks like a good installation apart from the 60A DC breaker. I bought one off Amazon that looks the same as the one in your video. It was junk. It was not CE marked. The biggest problem was it didn’t make a good secure contact with the cables. There was just a small grub screw holding the cable. I did not think it was safe enough for 16mm2 cables carrying 30A especially in a mobile environment where there is vibration and movement. Many people have posted that the breaker doesn’t trip at the indicated current. None of the reputable suppliers sell this item and, having seen it, I can understand why. I returned my breaker to Amazon for a refund. Please stay safe.
Thanks for the comment - you’re right I had issues above 30A with this breaker - have a video in the next couple of weeks since I upgraded it no problems - Amazon shouldn’t sell stuff which isn’t fit for purpose or as described! All the very best, David 👍
David, many thanks again for an informative video. I've noticed a few people reporting intermittent issues on the CV FB site with the stop/start system. I must be fortunate as my Series 8 CV40 appears to work fine. I'm also finding the stock B2B, solar panel combo working fine also for how we use the van. Only gone off grid twice (overnight) & found the stock battery still showing green in the morning. Was using lighting & 12v compressor fridge, gas heating & a couple hrs of 12v TV. We must try off-grid longer to challenge the system & have an excuse to move to Lithium. Obviously using your guides ;)
Thanks very much for the comment - you’re right a few folks seem to have an issue others it seems fine like yourself. Depends what you do and how often you go off grid and for how long whether it’s worth shelling out 😀 All the very best, David 👍
I like your window shades. Did they come with the van ? They look like they are designed to be light proof from the outside. Are they an aftermarket product ?
Thank you - they came with the van but I believe you can buy them as I know people have bought replacements when damaged, but I don’t know who manufactures them, sorry, all off the Elddis CV range have them so you might be able to find them searching for Elddis CV window blinds, they are pretty good at being light proof. However there are pin prick holes where the string goes through which gives a very small amount of light in and out. Tiny but on close inspection you can see it. All the best, David 👍
I've followed all your videos with great interest as I'm going to try and fit Li/B2B in the New Year. My van is a modern 2021 model but has a simple split charge relay (SCR) system fitted. There's 2 questions I have 1. Does the SCR need to be disconnected before fitting the Li/B2B combination? I have visions of big Li charging currents going through the existing SCR in preference to the B2B!! 2. The Li battery has an app that monitors the BMS of the battery and the Victron B2B also has an app that monitors all the necessary parameters. Do you really need the added expense of a smart shunt?
Thanks for the comment. It's best to disconnect the split charge relay as they aren't normally designed for Lithium batteries and it may cause incorrect charging / false readings with it connected (I've found this myself using 2 B2B's) it's best to have one device managing the battery of each type I've found to get the most out of it. You're right, the SmartShunt I had already bought but you can do without it for sure if your battery has the functionality built in. Hope that helps, all the best, David 👍
Thank you so much. I will be using this video for my install I was confused about the negative to Earth and if I had ordered the correct charger, I have the non isolated same as yours. I am assuming my main starter battery will be earthed to the chassis already somewhere so will earth the negative from the charger to the underside of the chassis (is it als ok to earth to the metal floor inside the van)?
Yes that’s right - the vehicle battery is normally connected to the chassis - you may be able to find a good stop to connect it to - just to make sure it’s a good connection for the power - all the very best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit thanks. If my leisure battery is earthed can I put tye negative through leisure battery terminal? My CTEK unit in there now is positive to starter battery and positive abd negative to leisure battery.
Hi David, Very good video thank you. Did you have to disable the Fiat B2B charging system before doing this install? If so how do you do this ? I'm just about to start this very same install into my Motohome that has a Fiat Ducato Engine/Chassis so it would be good to kow if there are any additional steps that I need to take.
It would make sense to disable it - I tried using the Schaudt and Orion in parallel but with mixed results (watch this space for an update in the next couple of weeks) - if it doesn’t have a Schaudt, I would pull the fuse on the original charge circuit as Lithium really needs a regulated charge current rather than a split charge. Then it should do what you expect with no oddities - all the very best, David 👍
I don't know which fuse to pull? I've also read that by doing this the control panel in the vehicle then constantly says low vehicle battery and some also say that the fridge could stop working. Do you have any experience of this?
I believe it depends on the model and what’s fitted - its a right pain to get a good view of under the van as I find it really awkward where it is - unless you have a spec sheet for yours? If it has a converters connection they seem to have a max allowed load of 50A which of course is too low for a 50A b2b due to efficiencies - for more direct connection worth checking the rating and the speed to load also as some rated at say 150A will do much less at idle speed, also the load the van draws.
David-- thank you so much for your informative video. I noticed that both of your fuses are near your converter. Shouldn't the positive lead off of your vehicle battery have an immediate fuse right there to protect downstream?
Thank you - it’s got a 60A Mega fuse off the vehicle battery before it connects to the cable so it’s protected at both ends (I tend to double protect appreciate the likelihood of an issue in reverse is small but it does exist so fuse long runs at each end - main one of course for the battery feed is at the battery end. All the best, David 👍
Great video…I assume that you had a split charge relay fitted before this video and your conversion…..did you disable it? If so how did you do it….can you point me your instructions on that aspect? Ray
Hi Ray, the van had a Schaudt B2B fitted before I installed this - some of the models have a split charge relay but with mine having a smart alternator it had a B2B all be it the power output was poor compared to claimed output on the old one. I think you can pull a fuse and some people have not bothered disabling - personally I would then you know what’s what though. Not sure if that helps at all, All the best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit Hi David…. I don’t have a smart alternator, even though the vehicle is only 2017…just before the smarts came out in ernest..by and large, smarts don’t have a split charge relay; though some actually still use them. So this leaves me with a dilemma about how to disable it and then fit the Victron Orion smart DC 2 DC charger…… I’m thinking I’ll try to remove the D+ wire that energises the relay….but I need a little more advise.. Thanks for replying though….much appreciated Ray
@@rayleeson6135 hope you manage to get it sorted, like you say removing the d+ might sort it but difficult to say without looking into further,p. Good luck 👍
Thanks for that David. Interesting how you wired it. I managed mine by having the wires inside the vehicle. I felt it was much simpler and there is no point where you tread on the cables. Anyway that’s just what I did. You said at the beginning you were going to explain about the “jumper” for switching it in when the engine in running. What did you do ? I wired a switch so I can control when I want the unit it be on. After all if you are headed to a site with hookup why would you want to use the vehicle to charge the battery if EHU or indeed Solar is going to be plentiful. The switch is very useful and I added a “Hey Ellie, turn on the Dc to Dc” command. Shen can just reach it while I’m driving. 😂
Thanks Graham - if I was just replacing the existing one and sorting out the wiring from the converter socket, it would have been *much* easier as I could have run internally but I wanted it as an extra (to give 25+30A=55A) and that was more than the converter connections are rated for. I’m going to do a follow on on how I’ve wired it up as took a little break to test it before finalising which was originally intended to be in that one - missed that when publishing! Basically though I’m fitting an on off on switch which in on 1 will connect to D+, if off won’t connect to anything and if on 2 will connect between the 2 points where I think you have put your switch. I’m too useless to remember to switch it on when needed but gives the option of automatic (on 1) or manual then (on 2) - the common on the switch connects to L and the right connection to H and the left connection to D+ basically then it gives all the options if there’s an issue or a specific outcome is needed. The battery maintainer I fitted causes looping otherwise where it raises the voltage when the leisure battery has enough charge to the vehicle battery and then it activates the Orion to charge the leisure battery from the vehicle battery so the D+ gets around that and saves me forgetting to switch it on or off. Hope that makes sense All the best, David 👍
Excellent video David clearly explained. Quick question, the smart alternator shunt sits on the neg battery post. How does this work and can it sense the extra load from the B2B?
Hi Brian, assume you mean the one on the vehicle battery rather than the one I fitted to the leisure battery? They both work very similar to be fair. They work by sensing how much power is going into (charge) or coming out (use) of the battery - on the vehicle it will be helpful for the computer running the vehicle (ECU) to know for example how much charge is getting to the battery to determine if start stop should activate and to help determine when the smart alternator should and shouldn’t be giving charge and how much. The additional load of the b2b should then register as demand via sensing the power increase or enable the alternator output to offset. (Hence smart) They actually work either via sensing a magnetic field generated when current passes through, an induced voltage fro,pm this or via a piece of metal with a slight resistance then measuring the small voltage across it, using Ohms Law then you can calculate the current. Hope that helps / made some sense? All the best, David 👍
Thanks David, so I take it the current our field shunt is detecting ALL the current that is returning to the battery via the earth strap that is connected between the battery neg. and the van chassis.
@@Brian-ug3cy yes, that’s right (from my understanding of the setup anyway) there are some signal wires from the shunt / sensor but other than that the negative can just be disconnected to isolate so all current should be detected by it.
Hi, super interesting, thank you. I was wondering how you could tell that the first earth you chose wasn't a good earth? Did you have to instal the whole system to find out or is it possible to test before hand?
Thanks for the comment. Interesting question -I tested it with a multi meter and it was ok from a resistance perspective for the first point so thought that would be fine, it was handy too. The issue was it wasn’t handling the current and the bolt wasn’t able to tighten enough. Lesson learned so I went to a more direct to the main chassis, I did consider running a wire from the negative chassis point near the battery if that hadn’t sorted it but that would have removed the benefit of non-isolated. Hope that helps, all the best, David 👍
Hi David, love your videos. The original B2B installed (Schaudt WA 121525) has a switch for switching between battery types. If you have fitted Lithium and the engine battery was lead acid, which battery option would you chose. Also is this why you fitted the victron unit. Thanks 😀
Hi, thank you - appreciated. I wasn’t getting a decent charge rate so added the additional one - watch this space as pulling both out and replacing with a single unit. The Lithium setting on the Schaudt isn’t the best for the LiFePO4 battery type I have (voltage is slightly high and it’s not very smart) The Schaudt charges the Leisure battery so the setting is for the receiving battery, in this case Lithium (all be it the standard lead acid setting may be better for modern lithium LiFePO4 batteries. All the best, David 🌅
Hello, nice tutorial! It's possible whit the dc dc 12-12 /30 charge the Motor Battery from the service Battery when the engine it's off and the Service battery it's full and connected at the 220v charger or solar panel solar? thank you very much
Thank you - in theory it’s possible in reverse but I have a battery maintainer which does that - there’s an earlier video on the battery maintainer if that helps - it would be good if in a future product it did both though 👍
Hello David, thank you for sharing your knowledge, if I have 24V lithium batteries should I use an Orion-Tr Smart isolate 24/12-30A? That is, the device receives the battery connection in 12V and then the 24V lithium battery is connected?
The isolation is more around the negative / earth / ground connection rather than the voltage - I believe either should work but depends exactly on the setup - I would probably go isolated with different voltages just incase I changed the configuration later and wanted an isolated negative.
Thanks for the comment - the reason for the thick cable is the leisure battery is being connected to the vehicle chassis so ensuring that in the event the positive of the leisure battery came in contact with the vehicle chassis the negative isn’t the weakest point and it should blow the fuse on the positive connection rather than potentially burning up the negative - the battery output is 250A continuous and 500A surge so needed to make sure it would handle that. Also saves voltage drop when b2b in use. Hope that makes sense, all the best, David 👍
Hi Good video 😁 We are fitting lithium to our adria coral 670 2019 (on 2.3 multi jet fiat base) Struggling to find out what alternator capacity is Almost impossible to see the alternator itself never mind any identification labels 😕
It’s very difficult without getting it lifted up so you can properly get under to see the capacity - the only real way to confirm is to check it - I think if the van has a converters socket which most conversions do the load on that is 50A max but that still doesn’t answer the alternator. Sorry that’s not much help All the best, David
David, did you connect the D+? On the victron it runs an algorithm that works out why the smart alternator is active based on voltage and gives protection to the starter battery by not taking the power straight away. The need for the D+ is this not required. The factory one uses the D+ and thus draws power out of the battery regardless of the battery capacity and whether or not the smart alternator is fully charging or not. Did you do the D+ in the end?
Hi Barry, because I have the vehicle battery maintainer, without the D+ it can get in a loop (as it senses the extra voltage then starts discharging to charge the leisure battery due to the maintainer increasing the voltage of the vehicle battery if that makes sense) - without that it would be fine but it’s to avoid the looping 😀 I have the D+ connected but need to tidy the wire up as temporary until I’ve checked all good. All the best, David 👍
@LeisureBit interesting point. I too have the battery maintainer but need to think about your point. I was going to put a switch in that I manually set when stationary or via a relay using the d+ to turn off maintainer when engine is on. 🤔
@@barrycatton9394 it’s a shame it doesn’t have an enable signal to connect d+ to. If I had a switch I’m sure I would forget. Connecting D+ to L input on the Orion fixes the issue (my auto mode ala D+, second is Victron auto mode and 3rd is off via a switch I’m fitting to finish off so I can change if needed but will leave set at auto D+ (will do a follow up with how I’ve done it via a spdt switch.
Hi Louis, I put the Orion in a different place close by as was planning on using both but if it’s a swap easy enough to put it in the same place / check your alternator size before using both to make sure sufficient power - the extra 5A from the Orion shouldn’t make a difference but if you double up then worth checking
I’ve replaced the existing dc-dc with the Orion non isolated but with new 16mm2 wires and a 70mm2 earth from the smartshunt. One thing you did mention was the use of the D+ cable. I have it ready to go but not sure of where best to wire it in to the Orion. I’ve just added the standard loop from L to H that the Orion comes with. What do you suggest?
Hi Louis, if you remove the bridge between the L and H and connect the D+ to the L then it will enable when D+ is active as it pulls L to 12v and that enables hope that makes sense (so you have then no connection to H as you would remove the bridge - my understanding is H just pulls L up so it enables hence removing the bridge and connecting to L enables just when engine on) Hope that helps, All the best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit after a bit of experimentation and help from the motorhome fun forum i connected the D+ to H pin and disabled engine shutdown override and input voltage lockout. All works correctly now.
I've had a B2B fitted for a while but with lead acid leisure battery. I never got the full amps. I've now changed to lithium and changed the charging profile to suit. Now i get 30 amps full on for most of the charge. Did you notice any problem with the standard alternator? . Ive got a Ducato but don't know its capacity. Hope it doesn't overload it now.
That’s good that you’re getting the full 30A - I’m just going to use the Orion b2b and remove the old one for that reason to avoid overloading the alternator. Clearly would be fine at speed but on idle there’s a fair whack of current. All the best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit i disconnected the original split charger system in my sargent unit by means of a relay that cuts the connection between VB and LB on engine run, so only my B2B is in operation. Thanks for the great videos 👍
Hi David, I’ve been watching your lifepo4 installation videos (and others) with great interest. We’ve downsizing to a cv20 Supreme, picking it up early July. Having had lithium in our last motorhome we would like it in this one too. Although I follow most of what you are doing and saying, some of it is over my head, particularly connections to the existing system. I wouldn’t feel confident to connect everything myself. I’ve been collecting the parts, all Renogy (the 2000 watt inverter has a transfer switch built in). We live in the Isle of Man and unfortunately the scope for specialists here is limited. I can do most of the leg work myself, but it’s the final marrying up to the cv20’s electrical system I really wouldn’t want to do. What I would like to do in late August when we go away on our first long trip, is to drop in to a specialist who can finish off the connections. I was wondering if you could recommend someone we could pre arrange an appointment with? We’re heading towards Portsmouth ferry terminal from LIverpool. Great videos by the way, I’ve collected most items needed to copy some of your mods. 👍🇮🇲
Not long now until you pick up your new van. I find it’s about space optimisation as lots of folks seem to have a lot of space in the big vans for the electrics but I wanted to minimise the space used by it and partially achieved that I think so I didn’t lose too much storage space, Regarding connecting it up, I don’t have any specific company to recommend and would only recommend based on experience and haven’t used one. I know @gadgetjohn was doing some work like that or similar previously so might be worth giving him a shout or in the CV Owners Group on Facebook there’s been a few recommendations too. Conscious different gear need slightly different configurations too. Good luck with the van collection - exciting times All the best, David 👍
Thanks David, I’ll do some searching on the cv owners group and see if I can find recommendations. Yes starting to to get excited about picking up the van, planning a trip based on Greg Virgo’s run down the N2 in Portugal. Thanks 👌🇮🇲
Using same charger. Gets so hot I can’t touch it for more than a few seconds! Is that normal? I’m using 6awg wire and 60amp fuse at the battery. Is the burning hot normal?!
Yoo mean the charger or the cable? If it’s the cable that’s a concern. The charger runs warm and can get hot when it’s been on for a little while hence the large heat sink - it does drop back power if it gets too hot. Where do you have it mounted? Is there enough air circulation? You can get a cooling fan if needed too
Hi, I use a hydraulic one I got from Amazon for about £38 (it’s a yellow one if you search for “hydraulic crimping tool” on Amazon you should see the one) it came with the majority of handy sizes upto 70mm. Hope that helps, David 👍
Hello, is there a way to limit the current? if I have a Li Ion battery to charge, that can take 200+ Amps, how can I limit the output current in order not to blow the fuse or overcharge the alternator, charger, cables?
fantastic David. Interesting about the start stop but maybe by giving the earth a cleaner earth path is making the start/stop more efficient. I just wonder if you considered stepping up to 25mm cable to allow just the breaker without the additional fuses on the B2B?. Nice video 👍
Thank you very much for the comment. I did consider 25mm and if I was putting a couple of Orion’s in would have gone with that for sure (as would have taken to 80A fuse at the battery then instead of the 60A). Cable has got silly money hasn’t it, think I paid just under £5 per meter for the 16mm2. You may have spotted the hole is bigger than needed incase I wish to go dual in the future 👍 I put the fuses on the B2B just as an extra precaution (based on past experience where things have malfunctioned) - if it’s double protected it never short circuits or breaks down either 😀 All the very best, David 👍
So much electrical so little room for beer 😂. Seriously though good explanation, we’re having one in the new van although the Elddis seems to work ok for us but we’ve never been massive users of 230v
Thank you - Haha - we found the beer got too warm next to the heater outlet - who wants a warm beer 🍻 I do think I will do what you did and box some of it in a bit better at some point though. (Will be another job which never happens!) Seems to have cracked the problem of poor charging when driving - for those cloudy days when solar is naff wanted something for when we’re away for more then 4/5 days off grid and driving about the battery gets a decent top up (should add about 50ah per hour of driving then with both - we were only getting 15A or so via the Elddis electrics (wiring seems massively undersized) and made it so it can be removed when we come to sell the van (saves future spend hopefully 🤞) as can put it back as was (beyond the hole in the floor obviously 🙄) Hope you guys have a lovely weekend - all the best, David 👍
Great video David and quite timely for me as I'm grappling ( in my head only so far ) with either taking out the existing factory B2B which at best will put in approx 35 amps or considering as you have done adding a secondary B2B - I think that is what you have done I watched this late last night 🙂 One question I have is how do you know the two chargers won't compete with each other or get confused in effect whilst they both try and assess the state of the battery and go through their multi state charging processes? One other benefit I considered of adding a second B2B charger is that if you ever sell the van you can remove the one you added and the new owner still gets the original functioning factory B2B?
Hi Pete, that’s right as a second B2B rather than replacing the existing - with the lithium because of how it works the competing hasn’t been an issue for charging the leisure battery as they both seem to be behaving well together - the only issue I had which is common is because I have the battery maintainer when the vehicle is off if the solar or charger is on then the Orion thinks the alternator is on unless you use the D+ (which was handy as goes into existing B2B - you’re absolutely right also ref removing it’s straightforward (except the hole of course which can be plugged) then you can restore back to as was at a point in the future when we sell the van. I was planning a follow up on connecting the D+ and how to find your alternator size if that would be useful too. Hope that answers the questions? All the best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit Awesome, thank you, very helpful and gives me some confidence if go down this route too. Yes I have gone through the pain literally 😃of finding my alternator size but I'm sure lots of others will find that useful 👍
Interesting vlog David, so does this mean you will be using EHU less this year or was this just extra back up. I suspect the start stop is due to the extra earth either making a more efficient connection for the vehicle battery or helping maintain it's condition. Start stop on Mrs K's Audi has always been hit & miss. Cheers K.
Morning Karlos, I think you’re right on the earth sorting the issue (that seems to be the theory as if you disconnect the b2b it still works fine - poor connection between leisure and vehicle earth seemed to be the issue) It gives more options and takes the worry away - we do plan to do more off grid sites but as you say you always have the option of whichever you need at that point - we have some coming up with no hookup given the remoteness and have some ‘tours’ planned which again wouldn’t have the hookup to recharge so it gives some extra top up while travelling to extend the time without intervention of a hookup. Thanks for the comment, Hope that makes sense, have a great week. All the best, David 👍
Good afternoon, yes, I’ve been impressed with it and it’s served me very well so far, hopefully gives years more trouble free performance. Hope that helps, all the best, David 👍
Hi David, after completing the install of my Victron Orion 12/12-30 isolated I’m completely underwhelmed and rather disappointed with the performance. Installed with 16mm cable over a 6m run the negative strapped with the starter batteries chassis negative and using a D+ feed to the H pin. We’ve a '23 Fiat Ducato, so a smart alternator and having searched for smart alternator install settings found a recommendation of engine shutdown parameters-alternator settings-start voltage = 13v. (Having found the default 14v wasn’t working either!) I’m finding that the alternator hardly runs, so over a 2 hour mixed driving Mway/A/B roads I managed to bank only 10Ah - I do get (when it happens) 30+ amps input registering but then before you know it I touch the throttle and the alternator shuts down again, so VERY disappointing, ANY hints or tips to shed on this one, or work arounds you may have used really appreciated. Thanks in anticipation. Andrew
Are you using the Orion on its own or in parallel anything else (like I did with another one) - I did have a bit of faff at first getting it up and running and in my case it was a poor negative connection which I resolved (as it would start then shut off) however, it sounds different, I have found with the D+ rather than voltage sensing it works ok. (I have had some efficiency issues with the two in parallel due to higher voltage cut off when actually it could charge further as when it’s nearing charged, the two b2b’s conflict). - what’s your leisure battery charge % when this is happening? Once mine kicks in it mostly keeps the alternator charging as it pulls down the voltage. Works best when the battery is below 80% (and also when used on it’s own) - I wonder if there’s something different happening on the newer model where the alternator is being really fuel economic. Just one to check (will have a look when in the van) and set it just to use d+ not voltage sense and see if that sorts as I found that best (for triggering charging) - without D+ enabled I had oddities with my battery maintainer raising the voltage and triggering charge then shutting off…. Sorry lots of bits there but just trying to work it out as quite a lot of variables which could cause it.
@@LeisureBit Hi David, thanks for the quick reply. It’s on an AutoTrail, so a Sargent electrics setup which has its own rather limp charging system. Mindful of complications of additional chargers confusing things I’ve also set the D+ to trigger a relay which isolates the leisure battery from the feed to/from the vans own electrics, after all the leisure side shuts down when the engines running so I’m not losing anything particularly. Today’s trip, the first after install I deliberately drained the 280ah lithium to 50% to leave room for my rather hopeful 40-60 ah uplift!! I did try on the last 30 min leg disabling engine shutdown detection, perhaps slightly better but still only 9ah. I get the impression that the charger doesn’t load the system but reads the alternator shutting down on acceleration and stops charging. Cheers Andrew.
Not sure if you can get someone to check on the app when driving but did you notice when it was drawing full load what the voltage dropped to as read on the Orion? When I first set it up I used the standard at battery voltages you would expect but needed a little tweak based on what it was reading. (As similar to you. I had about 6m cable - mine is the non isolated so I have a very short negative to the chassis so i worked about 7m.. 7m gives around 0.53V drop which is slightly more than recommended just (6m is about the limit) - if isolated you would have the sum of the negative and positive so 6m each is 12m which is around 0.91V at 16mm2 - less of cause any drop for connections and protection etc, For isolated if the total length is 12m to be in the safe drop you would need 35mm2 but 25mm2 would just about get away with as just on the recommended line if half a volt drop, (all based on 12V at 30A) If you could get someone to check when driving, just see if it’s cycling (I had that with bad earth creating too much voltage drop) - you see this with the voltage standby dropping when the current draw goes up, it also gives the running values, by adjusting these you can then force the alternator to charge by drawing down the battery (as vehicle battery voltage will drop with a 30A load - there’s a sensor in the negative line of the battery for smart alternators, so should oick up the load) Definitely worth looking at the run metrics in the Victron app as that should help determine what’s happening and allow for adjustments. The great thing about the Orion is you can adjust it as you know and it’s just making sure it doesn’t discharge when the engine is off. The only other thing I can think of is if the D+ line is sending engine running or charging as seems to be some variance in vehicles depending on the usecase, let’s assume it sends when it’s charging (and you want when engine is running) you could use ignition on and put a delay of say 60s in the Orion to give time for the engine to spin up and then adjust the settings - that would mean it charges when ignition on so should drive force the alternator to kick in more - this is just different things from what you describe so not 100% on which it is but the measurements should help pinpoint. All the best. David
@@LeisureBit all very good ideas, thank you very useful. I had switched the app off as it’s mesmerising whilst driving and far too distracting, I'll find a willing observer or perhaps record the screen whilst driving and look back at it. Good point with the negative, which I hadn’t considered , what I might do is run a shorter cable to my chassis connection and treat the unit as a non-isolated essentially and see if that changes anything. Re the D+ I use the line for the fridge, which I’ve tapped into. The same signal is used to trigger a relay with the N.O. pins connected to an indicator light to reassure me the switch has been thrown separating the 2 systems, so I’m reasonably confident it’s an engine running but … I’ll check that out and measure the indicator voltage/activity as that’s easier to get to. I’ll get back to you with an update, to fully access the Orion the battery needs to come out, as a result these troubleshooting actions might not happen straight away but then again… Thanks once again David.
Imagine it would be, especially with anything sensitive / transmitting equipment. Notice the new XS is only available in non-isolated currently. All the best, David 👍
IMHO, you have way tooo many fuses and breakers. There is one needed between the main battery and the charger and then another between the charger and 2nd battery. You can use a isolator switch also at the back, but that is really all you need.
You’re right in what you say - the additional ones I fitted enable me to reverse it if I ever got a flat battery and give protection against certain exceptional circumstances- there’s another video where I’ve upgraded it and simplified it - the in-line breaker I’ve used in this one turned out to be not the best so have removed it. Thanks for your comment - all the best, David 👍
@@marcing4287The 30A one gets quite warm when running at peak current, worth fitting a fan in a small space, the Orion XS doesn't seem to get very warm (you can feel it's warm but not hot) - not sure all the time but I've checked a few times and just Luke warm to the touch where as the Orion 12-12-30 gets (very) hot to the touch when running at full power
@@LeisureBitis it always running on the full power ? Looks like I need to try it when it is a free standing before I will pack it to the box. Installing a fan is a solution, but how to set it up to only run when Orion is running ? Otherwise it will flat my battery (either main or secondary)
The first thing you should do [IMO] is disable the stop-start engine "BS routine" - which has to be the biggest CON JOB under the guise of "reducing engine emissions" each and every time you stop at traffic lights etc., etc.! What hair-brained idiot that persuaded vehicle manufacturers hence persuaded the authorities [or vice versa] to allow this to become entrenched in emission regulations, has completed ignored the INCREASED engine emissions when starting up each time compared to your engine idling for the same period while stopped! Additionally, and far more important for the hapless driver that has this type of vehicle - IT IS ACCELERATING ENGINE AND TRANSMISSION LINE WEAR OUT OF ALL PROPORTION, which also increases said engine emissions as this wear increases! Go figure! Cheers.
A bit like speed humps where they increase pollution and wear on the engine and suspension etc, whilst at times it makes sense, sometimes daft as it restarts too eagerly if waiting and kind of defeats the object. Small miracle it’s working at all 😀 All the best, David 👍
It’s pushing more power to your house battery thus enabling a better stop start function. We have had this on our transporter works all the time now with our renogy dc/dc charger. Again great content cheers
Thank you - appreciate the comment.
Interesting theory - great to hear yours works all the time now too.
All the best, David 👍
Hi David out of interest did you get my email. Also where did you get your wire as it seems to have gone through the roof cheers Steve
@@sccobyste hi Steve, I don’t think I have the email but will double check. I got the cable from Simply Split Charge (as have found the quality to be good from there after having my ‘hands burned’ with some cheaper stuff in the past - think it was just under a fiver a meter so silly money nowadays.
@@LeisureBitsent again and 🙏
Great video! Thank you for sharing! Can you show a picture of the final battery connections? Also have you seen where they connect directly to the alternator, if so what’s the difference? Thank again!!!
I connected o the battery rather than alternator, I don’t think there would be too much difference except if you drew lots of power. Will see if I can find a photo… assume vehicle battery? If so it’s a spare terminal on the fuse connector with a MEGA fuse. All the best, David 👍
Thanks, very detailed video! I would suggest you could do a separate playlist of explaining things in 3 minutes , as in fact 24 minutes is way too much to watch :) and short one would link to long at the end - for those who needs more info on the topic :)🎉🎉🎉
Great suggestion and good idea - thank you - appreciate it - all the best, David 👍
Hi David, I'm about to fit a Victron B2B (new 50A version) when it is released in the next few weeks. Your video doesn't show the actual connection to the battery (at 18:43). I'm wondering how you connected it with a fuse. Any chance you could take a photo of the connection on the battery.
Yes of course, I think I have one in my photos somewhere, I used a mega fuse on the spare terminal on the edge of the fuse array connected to the positive terminal if that helps too (60A I used) and drilled a hole in the battery box and popped a grommet in to feed the cable through as I ran underneath.
@@LeisureBit that would be great if you could find and post the photo. I can't see how you would connect to the spare connection on the fuse array with a bolt as there doesn't seem to be any room to get it in. Did you use a fuse holder for the mega fuse.
@@LeisureBiti also have the same issue. Your video is very comprehensive but misses the technical part of fitting the fuse and cable at the engine battery end. Can you provide a photo or video of how you did that ? Thanks
Great video, I'm looking to install one in my overland set up.
Can you tell me if the circuit breakers were higher or lower amperage than the circuit breakers? This seems a better idea than battery isolation switches...
Thank you - I’ve found the breakers a bit hit and miss - worth getting the decent ones rather than the cheaper ones - they are handy as isolators too - I went just under the fuse rating so hopefully they would trip and the fuse is for additional protection 👍
Hi David have been watching and rewatching your informative videos on changing to lithium batteries, solar, dc to dc etc your help has been invaluable. I am just about to fit my Victron DC to DC charger but can’t find where you have picked up the ignition wire is there one on the original blue charger and how did you disengage the original charger after installing lithium etc as I’m not sure. Thanks keep up the good work. Vince
Hi Vince - yes, that’s right it was already connected to the original B2B (d+ connection) - it is available from the Fiat converter connector I believe which is in the drivers side door pillar base on ours -
Not sure if that helps? All the best, David 👍
Thanks for your prompt reply David it’s appreciated. Basically what I’m asking is if one of the wires from the blue original charger to connect the dc to dc ignition cable from the Victron charger and I’m not sure what to do with the cabling when I disconnect the original charger. Thanks for your help
@vincenteblacker783 with mine I just left it as it’s then fed without that so put a plastic cover on (or you could put some tape on) and then the wires from the charger go back to the battery, bypassing the elddis electrics (hope that makes sense).
@@LeisureBit thank you David 🙏
I wish I lived near to you David. 🙂Great video, many thanks.
Thank you - hope it was helpful - appreciate electrics can be daunting at times - all the very best, David 👍
Cheers David, I put in an isolated dc2dc but replaced the existing dc2dc. However, I ran off the convertor links in thd driver b Pillar with new heavier cabling as the cabling was really lightweight for the 30amp draw.
In respect of the stop start, like you I have the intermittent activation. However by disconnecting the sensor from the battery (20 mins no power) you reset the s/s system. Alas in two days time it stops working again.
I like the theory of the common earth and will review the wiring I have (should be simple to do a common earth despite the isolated dc2dc version I have).
Thanks for the video.
Thanks Barry, really interesting observation on disconnecting the negative, last time I did it for the tow bar electrics had no impact.
Know what you mean about the cabling 😒
Do let me know how you get on, will update if the start stop goes intermittently again.
All the best, David 👍
Thank you for sharing your very thorough and helpful video.
Thanks very much for the lovely comment - you’re more than welcome. Pleased it was helpful - all the very best, David 👍
Well done David a great explanation as ever and a useful modification to the cv20 to make life easier Daniel
Thanks Daniel - appreciated - pleased it was useful. All the best, David 👍
Hi David Fantastic video. I was wondering how you connected the D+ connection alternator wire? I have a fiat ducato 2022 with stop start. Love the Chanel.
Thank you, really appreciated. The D+ was handily connected to the b2b which was installed when I got the van. Not sure if you have a converter connector in the pillar behind the drivers door as you can pick it up from there? If not you may need to pick it up from either the alternator or another point.
Hope that helps?
All the best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit thank you so much for your help. Have a great Christmas and a happy New Year.
Great video! Quick question, in the manual diagrams the 60 amp fuses are always pictured near the battery terminals, does the position of the fuses matter at all? Thanks!
Thank you - yes, the position does matter for the fuses, I fused at both ends which some would consider excessive but wanted to protect both ends of the cable. The fuse on the vehicle battery is attached to the distribution block on the top of the battery, there is also another fuse in the fusing onto the leisure battery in addition to the ones near the Orion. Hope that makes sense, the important ones are near the battery. It also gives extra protection in the event of a faulty fuse or other odd scenarios which are unlikely but could occur. All the very best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit Thank you!!
Hi David we have an interesting one we drive and the leisure battery seems to discharge turn the van off and it starts charging via solar so actually doing the opposite need to check the onboard b2b and if an issue remove and replace
Wow, that doesn't sound right does it - is it wired up correctly do you know? Sounds like it's got the vehicle side connected to leisure and vice versa perhaps.
Let me know how you get on.
All the best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit it’s all fine very weird now it’s all working
Excellent video friend, super intuitive keep helping us with your explanations. As for Start stop, here in Brazil we usually make two to three auxiliary negative points coming out of the battery and connecting to the vehicle's chassis. The ground line becomes more efficient. 👍
Thank you - makes a lot of sense to have two or three negative connections to the chassis.
Thanks for watching, all the best, David 👍
Hi David, love your videos by the way. I have an all powers power bank and need a way of charging on the go but quickly, using the 12v power lead would take 10 hours from flat. I was thinking a 60amp B2B, this will put in 650/700 watts PH. My question is can I piggy back off my existing B2B to power my second B2B charger (can I use the power from the first one) thanks in advance
Good afternoon, you would normally run an additional cable to a second B2B if it’s drawing a high current - assume the power bank has an input which will take a charge bigger than the 12v lead which you would use?
How large are the cables to your existing B2B and what power is that one? (Might give an idea on any spare capacity)
All the best, David 👍
It looks like a good installation apart from the 60A DC breaker. I bought one off Amazon that looks the same as the one in your video. It was junk. It was not CE marked. The biggest problem was it didn’t make a good secure contact with the cables. There was just a small grub screw holding the cable. I did not think it was safe enough for 16mm2 cables carrying 30A especially in a mobile environment where there is vibration and movement. Many people have posted that the breaker doesn’t trip at the indicated current. None of the reputable suppliers sell this item and, having seen it, I can understand why. I returned my breaker to Amazon for a refund. Please stay safe.
Thanks for the comment - you’re right I had issues above 30A with this breaker - have a video in the next couple of weeks since I upgraded it no problems - Amazon shouldn’t sell stuff which isn’t fit for purpose or as described!
All the very best, David 👍
David, many thanks again for an informative video. I've noticed a few people reporting intermittent issues on the CV FB site with the stop/start system. I must be fortunate as my Series 8 CV40 appears to work fine. I'm also finding the stock B2B, solar panel combo working fine also for how we use the van. Only gone off grid twice (overnight) & found the stock battery still showing green in the morning. Was using lighting & 12v compressor fridge, gas heating & a couple hrs of 12v TV. We must try off-grid longer to challenge the system & have an excuse to move to Lithium. Obviously using your guides ;)
Thanks very much for the comment - you’re right a few folks seem to have an issue others it seems fine like yourself. Depends what you do and how often you go off grid and for how long whether it’s worth shelling out 😀
All the very best, David 👍
I like your window shades. Did they come with the van ?
They look like they are designed to be light proof from the outside.
Are they an aftermarket product ?
Thank you - they came with the van but I believe you can buy them as I know people have bought replacements when damaged, but I don’t know who manufactures them, sorry, all off the Elddis CV range have them so you might be able to find them searching for Elddis CV window blinds, they are pretty good at being light proof. However there are pin prick holes where the string goes through which gives a very small amount of light in and out. Tiny but on close inspection you can see it. All the best, David 👍
I've followed all your videos with great interest as I'm going to try and fit Li/B2B in the New Year. My van is a modern 2021 model but has a simple split charge relay (SCR) system fitted. There's 2 questions I have 1. Does the SCR need to be disconnected before fitting the Li/B2B combination? I have visions of big Li charging currents going through the existing SCR in preference to the B2B!! 2. The Li battery has an app that monitors the BMS of the battery and the Victron B2B also has an app that monitors all the necessary parameters. Do you really need the added expense of a smart shunt?
Thanks for the comment. It's best to disconnect the split charge relay as they aren't normally designed for Lithium batteries and it may cause incorrect charging / false readings with it connected (I've found this myself using 2 B2B's) it's best to have one device managing the battery of each type I've found to get the most out of it. You're right, the SmartShunt I had already bought but you can do without it for sure if your battery has the functionality built in.
Hope that helps, all the best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit Thank you very much for your prompt reply, I shall continue to follow your detailed videos!
Thank you so much. I will be using this video for my install I was confused about the negative to Earth and if I had ordered the correct charger, I have the non isolated same as yours. I am assuming my main starter battery will be earthed to the chassis already somewhere so will earth the negative from the charger to the underside of the chassis (is it als ok to earth to the metal floor inside the van)?
Yes that’s right - the vehicle battery is normally connected to the chassis - you may be able to find a good stop to connect it to - just to make sure it’s a good connection for the power - all the very best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit thanks. If my leisure battery is earthed can I put tye negative through leisure battery terminal? My CTEK unit in there now is positive to starter battery and positive abd negative to leisure battery.
Hi David, Very good video thank you. Did you have to disable the Fiat B2B charging system before doing this install? If so how do you do this ? I'm just about to start this very same install into my Motohome that has a Fiat Ducato Engine/Chassis so it would be good to kow if there are any additional steps that I need to take.
It would make sense to disable it -
I tried using the Schaudt and Orion in parallel but with mixed results (watch this space for an update in the next couple of weeks) - if it doesn’t have a Schaudt, I would pull the fuse on the original charge circuit as Lithium really needs a regulated charge current rather than a split charge. Then it should do what you expect with no oddities - all the very best, David 👍
I don't know which fuse to pull? I've also read that by doing this the control panel in the vehicle then constantly says low vehicle battery and some also say that the fridge could stop working. Do you have any experience of this?
Great video, I’m interested in how you find the alternators capacity on a ducato 👍
I believe it depends on the model and what’s fitted - its a right pain to get a good view of under the van as I find it really awkward where it is - unless you have a spec sheet for yours? If it has a converters connection they seem to have a max allowed load of 50A which of course is too low for a 50A b2b due to efficiencies - for more direct connection worth checking the rating and the speed to load also as some rated at say 150A will do much less at idle speed, also the load the van draws.
David-- thank you so much for your informative video. I noticed that both of your fuses are near your converter. Shouldn't the positive lead off of your vehicle battery have an immediate fuse right there to protect downstream?
Thank you - it’s got a 60A Mega fuse off the vehicle battery before it connects to the cable so it’s protected at both ends (I tend to double protect appreciate the likelihood of an issue in reverse is small but it does exist so fuse long runs at each end - main one of course for the battery feed is at the battery end. All the best, David 👍
Thank you! This sounds like a very good approach!
@@LeisureBit
Great video…I assume that you had a split charge relay fitted before this video and your conversion…..did you disable it? If so how did you do it….can you point me your instructions on that aspect?
Ray
Hi Ray, the van had a Schaudt B2B fitted before I installed this - some of the models have a split charge relay but with mine having a smart alternator it had a B2B all be it the power output was poor compared to claimed output on the old one. I think you can pull a fuse and some people have not bothered disabling - personally I would then you know what’s what though. Not sure if that helps at all, All the best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit Hi David…. I don’t have a smart alternator, even though the vehicle is only 2017…just before the smarts came out in ernest..by and large, smarts don’t have a split charge relay; though some actually still use them.
So this leaves me with a dilemma about how to disable it and then fit the Victron Orion smart DC 2 DC charger……
I’m thinking I’ll try to remove the D+ wire that energises the relay….but I need a little more advise..
Thanks for replying though….much appreciated
Ray
@@rayleeson6135 hope you manage to get it sorted, like you say removing the d+ might sort it but difficult to say without looking into further,p. Good luck 👍
Hi David, did you manage to find the photo of the connection to the battery. If not would you be able to take a photo.
Ping me an email feedback at LeisureBit dot codot uk and will ping you a picture back of where it’s installed.
Thanks for that David. Interesting how you wired it. I managed mine by having the wires inside the vehicle. I felt it was much simpler and there is no point where you tread on the cables. Anyway that’s just what I did. You said at the beginning you were going to explain about the “jumper” for switching it in when the engine in running. What did you do ? I wired a switch so I can control when I want the unit it be on. After all if you are headed to a site with hookup why would you want to use the vehicle to charge the battery if EHU or indeed Solar is going to be plentiful. The switch is very useful and I added a “Hey Ellie, turn on the Dc to Dc” command. Shen can just reach it while I’m driving. 😂
Thanks Graham - if I was just replacing the existing one and sorting out the wiring from the converter socket, it would have been *much* easier as I could have run internally but I wanted it as an extra (to give 25+30A=55A) and that was more than the converter connections are rated for.
I’m going to do a follow on on how I’ve wired it up as took a little break to test it before finalising which was originally intended to be in that one - missed that when publishing!
Basically though I’m fitting an on off on switch which in on 1 will connect to D+, if off won’t connect to anything and if on 2 will connect between the 2 points where I think you have put your switch. I’m too useless to remember to switch it on when needed but gives the option of automatic (on 1) or manual then (on 2) - the common on the switch connects to L and the right connection to H and the left connection to D+ basically then it gives all the options if there’s an issue or a specific outcome is needed. The battery maintainer I fitted causes looping otherwise where it raises the voltage when the leisure battery has enough charge to the vehicle battery and then it activates the Orion to charge the leisure battery from the vehicle battery so the D+ gets around that and saves me forgetting to switch it on or off.
Hope that makes sense
All the best, David 👍
Excellent video David clearly explained. Quick question, the smart alternator shunt sits on the neg battery post. How does this work and can it sense the extra load from the B2B?
Hi Brian, assume you mean the one on the vehicle battery rather than the one I fitted to the leisure battery?
They both work very similar to be fair. They work by sensing how much power is going into (charge) or coming out (use) of the battery - on the vehicle it will be helpful for the computer running the vehicle (ECU) to know for example how much charge is getting to the battery to determine if start stop should activate and to help determine when the smart alternator should and shouldn’t be giving charge and how much. The additional load of the b2b should then register as demand via sensing the power increase or enable the alternator output to offset. (Hence smart)
They actually work either via sensing a magnetic field generated when current passes through, an induced voltage fro,pm this or via a piece of metal with a slight resistance then measuring the small voltage across it, using Ohms Law then you can calculate the current.
Hope that helps / made some sense?
All the best, David 👍
Thanks David, so I take it the current our field shunt is detecting ALL the current that is returning to the battery via the earth strap that is connected between the battery neg. and the van chassis.
@@Brian-ug3cy yes, that’s right (from my understanding of the setup anyway) there are some signal wires from the shunt / sensor but other than that the negative can just be disconnected to isolate so all current should be detected by it.
Many thanks David 👍
Hi, super interesting, thank you. I was wondering how you could tell that the first earth you chose wasn't a good earth? Did you have to instal the whole system to find out or is it possible to test before hand?
Thanks for the comment. Interesting question -I tested it with a multi meter and it was ok from a resistance perspective for the first point so thought that would be fine, it was handy too. The issue was it wasn’t handling the current and the bolt wasn’t able to tighten enough. Lesson learned so I went to a more direct to the main chassis, I did consider running a wire from the negative chassis point near the battery if that hadn’t sorted it but that would have removed the benefit of non-isolated.
Hope that helps, all the best, David 👍
Hi David, love your videos. The original B2B installed (Schaudt WA 121525) has a switch for switching between battery types. If you have fitted Lithium and the engine battery was lead acid, which battery option would you chose. Also is this why you fitted the victron unit. Thanks 😀
Hi, thank you - appreciated. I wasn’t getting a decent charge rate so added the additional one - watch this space as pulling both out and replacing with a single unit.
The Lithium setting on the Schaudt isn’t the best for the LiFePO4 battery type I have (voltage is slightly high and it’s not very smart)
The Schaudt charges the Leisure battery so the setting is for the receiving battery, in this case Lithium (all be it the standard lead acid setting may be better for modern lithium LiFePO4 batteries.
All the best, David 🌅
Hello, nice tutorial! It's possible whit the dc dc 12-12 /30 charge the Motor Battery from the service Battery when the engine it's off and the Service battery it's full and connected at the 220v charger or solar panel solar? thank you very much
Thank you - in theory it’s possible in reverse but I have a battery maintainer which does that - there’s an earlier video on the battery maintainer if that helps - it would be good if in a future product it did both though 👍
Hello David, thank you for sharing your knowledge, if I have 24V lithium batteries should I use an Orion-Tr Smart isolate 24/12-30A? That is, the device receives the battery connection in 12V and then the 24V lithium battery is connected?
The isolation is more around the negative / earth / ground connection rather than the voltage - I believe either should work but depends exactly on the setup - I would probably go isolated with different voltages just incase I changed the configuration later and wanted an isolated negative.
Why did you use such a high gauge of cable for the ground to the chassis?
Thanks for the comment - the reason for the thick cable is the leisure battery is being connected to the vehicle chassis so ensuring that in the event the positive of the leisure battery came in contact with the vehicle chassis the negative isn’t the weakest point and it should blow the fuse on the positive connection rather than potentially burning up the negative - the battery output is 250A continuous and 500A surge so needed to make sure it would handle that. Also saves voltage drop when b2b in use.
Hope that makes sense, all the best, David 👍
Hi
Good video 😁
We are fitting lithium to our adria coral 670 2019 (on 2.3 multi jet fiat base)
Struggling to find out what alternator capacity is
Almost impossible to see the alternator itself never mind any identification labels 😕
It’s very difficult without getting it lifted up so you can properly get under to see the capacity - the only real way to confirm is to check it - I think if the van has a converters socket which most conversions do the load on that is 50A max but that still doesn’t answer the alternator.
Sorry that’s not much help
All the best, David
David, did you connect the D+? On the victron it runs an algorithm that works out why the smart alternator is active based on voltage and gives protection to the starter battery by not taking the power straight away. The need for the D+ is this not required. The factory one uses the D+ and thus draws power out of the battery regardless of the battery capacity and whether or not the smart alternator is fully charging or not. Did you do the D+ in the end?
Hi Barry, because I have the vehicle battery maintainer, without the D+ it can get in a loop (as it senses the extra voltage then starts discharging to charge the leisure battery due to the maintainer increasing the voltage of the vehicle battery if that makes sense) - without that it would be fine but it’s to avoid the looping 😀
I have the D+ connected but need to tidy the wire up as temporary until I’ve checked all good.
All the best, David 👍
@LeisureBit interesting point. I too have the battery maintainer but need to think about your point. I was going to put a switch in that I manually set when stationary or via a relay using the d+ to turn off maintainer when engine is on. 🤔
@@barrycatton9394 it’s a shame it doesn’t have an enable signal to connect d+ to. If I had a switch I’m sure I would forget. Connecting D+ to L input on the Orion fixes the issue (my auto mode ala D+, second is Victron auto mode and 3rd is off via a switch I’m fitting to finish off so I can change if needed but will leave set at auto D+ (will do a follow up with how I’ve done it via a spdt switch.
Thanks again for aq great video covering the modifications. Did you out the Orion in the same location as the existing B2B that came with the van?
Hi Louis, I put the Orion in a different place close by as was planning on using both but if it’s a swap easy enough to put it in the same place / check your alternator size before using both to make sure sufficient power - the extra 5A from the Orion shouldn’t make a difference but if you double up then worth checking
I’ve replaced the existing dc-dc with the Orion non isolated but with new 16mm2 wires and a 70mm2 earth from the smartshunt. One thing you did mention was the use of the D+ cable. I have it ready to go but not sure of where best to wire it in to the Orion. I’ve just added the standard loop from L to H that the Orion comes with. What do you suggest?
Hi Louis, if you remove the bridge between the L and H and connect the D+ to the L then it will enable when D+ is active as it pulls L to 12v and that enables hope that makes sense (so you have then no connection to H as you would remove the bridge - my understanding is H just pulls L up so it enables hence removing the bridge and connecting to L enables just when engine on)
Hope that helps,
All the best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit after a bit of experimentation and help from the motorhome fun forum i connected the D+ to H pin and disabled engine shutdown override and input voltage lockout. All works correctly now.
I've had a B2B fitted for a while but with lead acid leisure battery. I never got the full amps. I've now changed to lithium and changed the charging profile to suit. Now i get 30 amps full on for most of the charge. Did you notice any problem with the standard alternator? . Ive got a Ducato but don't know its capacity.
Hope it doesn't overload it now.
That’s good that you’re getting the full 30A - I’m just going to use the Orion b2b and remove the old one for that reason to avoid overloading the alternator. Clearly would be fine at speed but on idle there’s a fair whack of current.
All the best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit i disconnected the original split charger system in my sargent unit by means of a relay that cuts the connection between VB and LB on engine run, so only my B2B is in operation. Thanks for the great videos 👍
Hi David, I’ve been watching your lifepo4 installation videos (and others) with great interest. We’ve downsizing to a cv20 Supreme, picking it up early July. Having had lithium in our last motorhome we would like it in this one too.
Although I follow most of what you are doing and saying, some of it is over my head, particularly connections to the existing system. I wouldn’t feel confident to connect everything myself. I’ve been collecting the parts, all Renogy (the 2000 watt inverter has a transfer switch built in).
We live in the Isle of Man and unfortunately the scope for specialists here is limited. I can do most of the leg work myself, but it’s the final marrying up to the cv20’s electrical system I really wouldn’t want to do.
What I would like to do in late August when we go away on our first long trip, is to drop in to a specialist who can finish off the connections. I was wondering if you could recommend someone we could pre arrange an appointment with? We’re heading towards Portsmouth ferry terminal from LIverpool.
Great videos by the way, I’ve collected most items needed to copy some of your mods. 👍🇮🇲
Not long now until you pick up your new van. I find it’s about space optimisation as lots of folks seem to have a lot of space in the big vans for the electrics but I wanted to minimise the space used by it and partially achieved that I think so I didn’t lose too much storage space,
Regarding connecting it up, I don’t have any specific company to recommend and would only recommend based on experience and haven’t used one. I know @gadgetjohn was doing some work like that or similar previously so might be worth giving him a shout or in the CV Owners Group on Facebook there’s been a few recommendations too. Conscious different gear need slightly different configurations too.
Good luck with the van collection - exciting times
All the best, David 👍
Thanks David, I’ll do some searching on the cv owners group and see if I can find recommendations.
Yes starting to to get excited about picking up the van, planning a trip based on Greg Virgo’s run down the N2 in Portugal.
Thanks 👌🇮🇲
Using same charger. Gets so hot I can’t touch it for more than a few seconds! Is that normal? I’m using 6awg wire and 60amp fuse at the battery.
Is the burning hot normal?!
Yoo mean the charger or the cable? If it’s the cable that’s a concern. The charger runs warm and can get hot when it’s been on for a little while hence the large heat sink - it does drop back power if it gets too hot. Where do you have it mounted? Is there enough air circulation? You can get a cooling fan if needed too
Hi could you tell me what wire crimper you use please
Hi, I use a hydraulic one I got from Amazon for about £38 (it’s a yellow one if you search for “hydraulic crimping tool” on Amazon you should see the one) it came with the majority of handy sizes upto 70mm.
Hope that helps, David 👍
Hello, is there a way to limit the current? if I have a Li Ion battery to charge, that can take 200+ Amps, how can I limit the output current in order not to blow the fuse or overcharge the alternator, charger, cables?
That’s the whole point of the b2b and why it’s needed, it regulates the current and voltage 👍
fantastic David. Interesting about the start stop but maybe by giving the earth a cleaner earth path is making the start/stop more efficient. I just wonder if you considered stepping up to 25mm cable to allow just the breaker without the additional fuses on the B2B?. Nice video 👍
Thank you very much for the comment. I did consider 25mm and if I was putting a couple of Orion’s in would have gone with that for sure (as would have taken to 80A fuse at the battery then instead of the 60A). Cable has got silly money hasn’t it, think I paid just under £5 per meter for the 16mm2. You may have spotted the hole is bigger than needed incase I wish to go dual in the future 👍
I put the fuses on the B2B just as an extra precaution (based on past experience where things have malfunctioned) - if it’s double protected it never short circuits or breaks down either 😀
All the very best, David 👍
So much electrical so little room for beer 😂.
Seriously though good explanation, we’re having one in the new van although the Elddis seems to work ok for us but we’ve never been massive users of 230v
Thank you - Haha - we found the beer got too warm next to the heater outlet - who wants a warm beer 🍻 I do think I will do what you did and box some of it in a bit better at some point though. (Will be another job which never happens!)
Seems to have cracked the problem of poor charging when driving - for those cloudy days when solar is naff wanted something for when we’re away for more then 4/5 days off grid and driving about the battery gets a decent top up (should add about 50ah per hour of driving then with both - we were only getting 15A or so via the Elddis electrics (wiring seems massively undersized) and made it so it can be removed when we come to sell the van (saves future spend hopefully 🤞) as can put it back as was (beyond the hole in the floor obviously 🙄)
Hope you guys have a lovely weekend - all the best, David 👍
Great video David and quite timely for me as I'm grappling ( in my head only so far ) with either taking out the existing factory B2B which at best will put in approx 35 amps or considering as you have done adding a secondary B2B - I think that is what you have done I watched this late last night 🙂
One question I have is how do you know the two chargers won't compete with each other or get confused in effect whilst they both try and assess the state of the battery and go through their multi state charging processes?
One other benefit I considered of adding a second B2B charger is that if you ever sell the van you can remove the one you added and the new owner still gets the original functioning factory B2B?
Hi Pete, that’s right as a second B2B rather than replacing the existing - with the lithium because of how it works the competing hasn’t been an issue for charging the leisure battery as they both seem to be behaving well together - the only issue I had which is common is because I have the battery maintainer when the vehicle is off if the solar or charger is on then the Orion thinks the alternator is on unless you use the D+ (which was handy as goes into existing B2B - you’re absolutely right also ref removing it’s straightforward (except the hole of course which can be plugged) then you can restore back to as was at a point in the future when we sell the van.
I was planning a follow up on connecting the D+ and how to find your alternator size if that would be useful too.
Hope that answers the questions?
All the best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit Awesome, thank you, very helpful and gives me some confidence if go down this route too. Yes I have gone through the pain literally 😃of finding my alternator size but I'm sure lots of others will find that useful 👍
No easy is it to get to is it 😀
Have a great weekend 👍
Interesting vlog David, so does this mean you will be using EHU less this year or was this just extra back up. I suspect the start stop is due to the extra earth either making a more efficient connection for the vehicle battery or helping maintain it's condition. Start stop on Mrs K's Audi has always been hit & miss. Cheers K.
Morning Karlos, I think you’re right on the earth sorting the issue (that seems to be the theory as if you disconnect the b2b it still works fine - poor connection between leisure and vehicle earth seemed to be the issue)
It gives more options and takes the worry away - we do plan to do more off grid sites but as you say you always have the option of whichever you need at that point - we have some coming up with no hookup given the remoteness and have some ‘tours’ planned which again wouldn’t have the hookup to recharge so it gives some extra top up while travelling to extend the time without intervention of a hookup.
Thanks for the comment, Hope that makes sense, have a great week.
All the best, David 👍
Hi David
Are you still impressed with your roamer battery after a year in use?
Good afternoon, yes, I’ve been impressed with it and it’s served me very well so far, hopefully gives years more trouble free performance.
Hope that helps, all the best, David 👍
@@LeisureBit 👍thanks for the quick response, Kevin.
Hi David, after completing the install of my Victron Orion 12/12-30 isolated I’m completely underwhelmed and rather disappointed with the performance. Installed with 16mm cable over a 6m run the negative strapped with the starter batteries chassis negative and using a D+ feed to the H pin. We’ve a '23 Fiat Ducato, so a smart alternator and having searched for smart alternator install settings found a recommendation of engine shutdown parameters-alternator settings-start voltage = 13v. (Having found the default 14v wasn’t working either!)
I’m finding that the alternator hardly runs, so over a 2 hour mixed driving Mway/A/B roads I managed to bank only 10Ah - I do get (when it happens) 30+ amps input registering but then before you know it I touch the throttle and the alternator shuts down again, so VERY disappointing, ANY hints or tips to shed on this one, or work arounds you may have used really appreciated. Thanks in anticipation. Andrew
Are you using the Orion on its own or in parallel anything else (like I did with another one) - I did have a bit of faff at first getting it up and running and in my case it was a poor negative connection which I resolved (as it would start then shut off) however, it sounds different, I have found with the D+ rather than voltage sensing it works ok. (I have had some efficiency issues with the two in parallel due to higher voltage cut off when actually it could charge further as when it’s nearing charged, the two b2b’s conflict). - what’s your leisure battery charge % when this is happening? Once mine kicks in it mostly keeps the alternator charging as it pulls down the voltage. Works best when the battery is below 80% (and also when used on it’s own) - I wonder if there’s something different happening on the newer model where the alternator is being really fuel economic. Just one to check (will have a look when in the van) and set it just to use d+ not voltage sense and see if that sorts as I found that best (for triggering charging) - without D+ enabled I had oddities with my battery maintainer raising the voltage and triggering charge then shutting off….
Sorry lots of bits there but just trying to work it out as quite a lot of variables which could cause it.
@@LeisureBit Hi David, thanks for the quick reply. It’s on an AutoTrail, so a Sargent electrics setup which has its own rather limp charging system. Mindful of complications of additional chargers confusing things I’ve also set the D+ to trigger a relay which isolates the leisure battery from the feed to/from the vans own electrics, after all the leisure side shuts down when the engines running so I’m not losing anything particularly.
Today’s trip, the first after install I deliberately drained the 280ah lithium to 50% to leave room for my rather hopeful 40-60 ah uplift!!
I did try on the last 30 min leg disabling engine shutdown detection, perhaps slightly better but still only 9ah. I get the impression that the charger doesn’t load the system but reads the alternator shutting down on acceleration and stops charging. Cheers Andrew.
Not sure if you can get someone to check on the app when driving but did you notice when it was drawing full load what the voltage dropped to as read on the Orion? When I first set it up I used the standard at battery voltages you would expect but needed a little tweak based on what it was reading. (As similar to you. I had about 6m cable - mine is the non isolated so I have a very short negative to the chassis so i worked about 7m.. 7m gives around 0.53V drop which is slightly more than recommended just (6m is about the limit) - if isolated you would have the sum of the negative and positive so 6m each is 12m which is around 0.91V at 16mm2 - less of cause any drop for connections and protection etc, For isolated if the total length is 12m to be in the safe drop you would need 35mm2 but 25mm2 would just about get away with as just on the recommended line if half a volt drop, (all based on 12V at 30A)
If you could get someone to check when driving, just see if it’s cycling (I had that with bad earth creating too much voltage drop) - you see this with the voltage standby dropping when the current draw goes up, it also gives the running values, by adjusting these you can then force the alternator to charge by drawing down the battery (as vehicle battery voltage will drop with a 30A load - there’s a sensor in the negative line of the battery for smart alternators, so should oick up the load)
Definitely worth looking at the run metrics in the Victron app as that should help determine what’s happening and allow for adjustments. The great thing about the Orion is you can adjust it as you know and it’s just making sure it doesn’t discharge when the engine is off.
The only other thing I can think of is if the D+ line is sending engine running or charging as seems to be some variance in vehicles depending on the usecase, let’s assume it sends when it’s charging (and you want when engine is running) you could use ignition on and put a delay of say 60s in the Orion to give time for the engine to spin up and then adjust the settings - that would mean it charges when ignition on so should drive force the alternator to kick in more - this is just different things from what you describe so not 100% on which it is but the measurements should help pinpoint.
All the best. David
@@LeisureBit all very good ideas, thank you very useful.
I had switched the app off as it’s mesmerising whilst driving and far too distracting, I'll find a willing observer or perhaps record the screen whilst driving and look back at it.
Good point with the negative, which I hadn’t considered , what I might do is run a shorter cable to my chassis connection and treat the unit as a non-isolated essentially and see if that changes anything.
Re the D+ I use the line for the fridge, which I’ve tapped into. The same signal is used to trigger a relay with the N.O. pins connected to an indicator light to reassure me the switch has been thrown separating the 2 systems, so I’m reasonably confident it’s an engine running but … I’ll check that out and measure the indicator voltage/activity as that’s easier to get to.
I’ll get back to you with an update, to fully access the Orion the battery needs to come out, as a result these troubleshooting actions might not happen straight away but then again…
Thanks once again David.
@joandandrew5097 good luck and good idea to screen record the app. Hopefully that helps give the answer and resolution 🤞
isolated version is better if you are using comms or audio equipment as it creates less noise.
Imagine it would be, especially with anything sensitive / transmitting equipment. Notice the new XS is only available in non-isolated currently. All the best, David 👍
XS is not an option for me cuz I need 12/24v.
A job I wouldn't mind trying to do, when I feel brave enough.
IMHO, you have way tooo many fuses and breakers. There is one needed between the main battery and the charger and then another between the charger and 2nd battery.
You can use a isolator switch also at the back, but that is really all you need.
You’re right in what you say - the additional ones I fitted enable me to reverse it if I ever got a flat battery and give protection against certain exceptional circumstances- there’s another video where I’ve upgraded it and simplified it - the in-line breaker I’ve used in this one turned out to be not the best so have removed it.
Thanks for your comment - all the best, David 👍
@@LeisureBitThat is a valid point. Can you tell how much heat it produce ? I have a bit tiny space.
@@marcing4287The 30A one gets quite warm when running at peak current, worth fitting a fan in a small space, the Orion XS doesn't seem to get very warm (you can feel it's warm but not hot) - not sure all the time but I've checked a few times and just Luke warm to the touch where as the Orion 12-12-30 gets (very) hot to the touch when running at full power
@@LeisureBitis it always running on the full power ? Looks like I need to try it when it is a free standing before I will pack it to the box.
Installing a fan is a solution, but how to set it up to only run when Orion is running ? Otherwise it will flat my battery (either main or secondary)
The first thing you should do [IMO] is disable the stop-start engine "BS routine" - which has to be the biggest CON JOB under the guise of "reducing engine emissions" each and every time you stop at traffic lights etc., etc.! What hair-brained idiot that persuaded vehicle manufacturers hence persuaded the authorities [or vice versa] to allow this to become entrenched in emission regulations, has completed ignored the INCREASED engine emissions when starting up each time compared to your engine idling for the same period while stopped! Additionally, and far more important for the hapless driver that has this type of vehicle - IT IS ACCELERATING ENGINE AND TRANSMISSION LINE WEAR OUT OF ALL PROPORTION, which also increases said engine emissions as this wear increases! Go figure! Cheers.
A bit like speed humps where they increase pollution and wear on the engine and suspension etc, whilst at times it makes sense, sometimes daft as it restarts too eagerly if waiting and kind of defeats the object. Small miracle it’s working at all 😀
All the best, David 👍