Pointing sabres
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- Опубликовано: 23 янв 2008
- In which our erring presenter deals with the problem of which way up to hold a sabre while galloping on a horse. Will he break his wrist before he gets it right?
In case there are any Americans reading: yes, that is how to spell "sabre". 
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"A horse eye for a human wrist."
That shall be a new code!
+Mario Hyrulia and he said its a small price to pay in a battle .
Profile picture checks out.
I once saw five of these go for under £100. I wasn't saying that tulwars were inferior, I was saying that wedding props are likely to be inferior to items made for warfare.
Very true
talwar literally means sword.
He does this so casual in times when Nobody on RUclips could feel this comfortable infornt of a camera
He is the exact same even 12 years ago, he even sounds and looks the same.
Eyepatches look cool so I guess the horse won't mind.
i am offended because my wrists are backwards
@@davecrupel2817 Or just use a mirror
Er... well actually my tulwar is real. It isn't as sharp as once it was, perhaps, but if swung hard enough it'd make quite a gash.
I love the little comments at the end of the video
I think that you will find that the correct way to say it is: Much more best. :-P
Rogue-9 actually I think you’ll find that it’s much more bestest
Or worstest.
Ryan Rolshouse no, it is in fact the least worstest.
was much more best a Captain Jackism?
Bestly. You're describing how best it is, so clearly it's an adverb. Much more bestLY.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, I have not read all comments, so this may have been addressed by another comment, however I noticed that neither in this video, nor the reactive video by scholagladiatoria did either of you touch upon the actual reason British cavalry were trained to give point, with both sword & lance, with the elbow up & the thumb down (knuckles up & to the inside).
The way the human arm works is key to this discussion. If you have your thumb up & your elbow down when your sword point impacts your target you will be vaulted from your horse, lose your sword, or break your arm. If you have your elbow up & your thumb down, your arm bends at the elbow allowing you to gallop on past your target & simply withdraw your blade by pulling the now downward pointing blade from the target as it passed behind you.
Try holding the sabre, sword, or lance as I have described & allow your arm to bend downward at the elbow & you'll see what I mean. This is taken directly from British Cavalry Training Manuals in my collection dating from 1890 onward.
Saving your wrist, or guarding your head from a cut may be added benefits, but the main reason is to avoid being caught in an awkward position by your stuck blade as you continue to race full on past the fellow now spitted on your blade & having his corpse tear you from your saddle resulting in a dangerous walk through the enemy to safety, breaking your arm & crippling yourself, or losing hold of your sword & thus disarming yourself in the midst of the fray.
Also of note: the targets for lance & sword when giving point on horse are 'soft targets'; eyes & neck, never torso. A blade catches more easily in the ribs & is harder to extract. Eyes & necks allow swift & easy extraction.
The manuals are quite thorough. 'Tent pegging' was used to develop skill at hitting these small targets.
Very interesting I love info like that
Neat, thanks. I had been wondering if there was any film of the Cossacks in action.
But if you hold it pointing forward, it's a lot easier to unscrew the pommel with your other hand!
(insert "I understood that reference" gif)
So you can more easily Finish Him Rightly!
end him rightly
Thank you, End Him Rightly!
wut
Love the ending. I'm glad I came across you. Factual, interesting and funny.
Congrats. You've discovered the prime parry. Approximately 500 years too late. Sabre fencers around the world are smiling.
Not sure if you've done any more videos on sabres but I was always taught that the sword is held upside down, not for reduced strain on the wrist while riding, but rather to avoid breaking your arm or losing your sabre on impacting the enemy. If you hold the sabre straight out the normal way and imagine the point impacting your poor infantry target as you gallop by at full speed you can quickly imagine the kind of damage that you will do to your own arm under those conditions. You would have to let go. Do the same with the sword upside down. As you ride past your target, your arm will come down much more naturally and allow the point to go down, then the curvature of the blade to roll up our imaginary targets shoulder. This way you save your arm and keep your sabre.
Your videos used to be so short...
Wait until I show you something even shorter
@@roachdoggjr1940 your aim with an unscrewed pommel.
''Bye'' haha you are awesome :)
The point down style of carry makes more sense for cavalry when they're routing broken infantry formations from the field. If the rider decides to use his point to skewer a fleeing foot soldier, he can easily aim the point down as he rides up from behind, stab down with the weight and speed of the horse adding impact, then as he passes to the side twist the blade free and spur on. If he decides to use the edge, he can ride up from behind, whip the sabre backwards in a loop so that the blade on the bottom arc of the swing comes forward and crashes into the back of the soldiers neck, again with the horse's weight and speed adding force. Or he can spur slightly ahead of the soldier, flip the blade tip up, and backhand slash the soldier's face or throat open.
@hezza08 True, perhaps, but I have no trouble turning the weapon as I swing it round. In fact I find that more comfortable.
If you ever read this Linybeige thank you... thank you for making these videos. I have seen a few newer ones and there are so many I want to watch now but I'm starting at the.. well... start. Your videos help people more than I think you know. It helps people like me forget about stress, it makes life more interesting and I cant wait to watch em all.
Pointing it down is a much more distinctive pose though, so it would make for a much more effective nonverbal signal.
The tulwar's pommel was specifically designed to prevent you from bending your wrist, though. It's easier to point a sabre with a more open grip (say, a western cavalry sabre). That being said, it's a valid point about ease-of-use.
@FireCyclops86 A fair question. I don't know of any hard and fast rule, but scimitars tend to be oriental and sometimes wider bladed, and sabres tend to be occidental. The term 'sabre' is used of the military weapons used by cavalrymen in the musketry period, whereas 'scimitar' often refers to weapons from far earlier. Some Indian tulwars are described as 'scimitars' despite having European-made sabre blades on them.
@1x93cm True, there are many videos I have not made. At the moment I have about 50 sitting on my hard drive waiting to be edited, but I'm afraid none of them is about Chinese weaponry.
Oh dear. Wait 9 years and see how much backlog you have then!
Nicely done! Great work on the videos,, they're always informative and entertaining, especially for weapons and martial arts geeks like myself.
lol these videos have always been great
I am from India and the native movies depict the sabre being held horizontally above the head while saying "CHAAARGE".
When I was a kid I preferred to hold my sword (*cough* tree branch *cough*) in the same manner as it is much more stable and ready to attack when you are rushing on foot.
As a fantasy game writer, I really find your videos useful. Thank you for taking the time to put these up.
Some American Civil war sabers were nicknamed "wrist-breakers."
French cavalry used the point in the charge and hold the sabre upside-down but fully extended.
Perfect explanation, great work. Good luck with more videos.
I bought it from a friend who got it from an antique dealer in Britain. I have seen talwars on sale on Ebay, but I think they've banned swords now, but there are other on-line auction sites. A lot of tulwars are made for weddings - they are part of the costume. I suspect they may be rather inferior weapons, though.
"Much more better" *Realization* "Much more better?!" :D
No, I've never used one. It's a sort of half-way between sabre and falcatta. They look pretty handy for thrusting.
There have been a number of fascinating texts and commentaries on texts regarding cavalry sword handling and their relation to larger cavalry tactics and individual psychology.
Of special note are those works that deal with comparisons on cavalry sword handling amongst different cultures, particularly the Indian cavalry seconded to the British Army during the Empire and the Ottoman Empire prior to WWI.
I am of course flattered to be given requests. Unfortunately, I do not know the particular weapon to which you refer.
length, intended use, and culture of origin. sabers are typically cavalry weapons of the 18th century in Europe. Scimitars are typically infantry weapons of the medieval era in the Middle East. cavalry weapons are necessarily longer than infantry weapons because of the need to reach your opponent from atop a horse. other than that the design of the weapons is very similar. slender, curved blades for making circular slashing strokes.
Yes, there are fencing manuals showing his as an en guarde position.
That position also allows you to easily swing it in a circle downwards at anyone hapless enough to be near your horse at the time the charge connects with the enemy lines.
The point down position also allows your knuckle bow to defend your entire sword arm from any incoming cut whoever you're charging may throw. But that's definately the position to charge from, and the correct way to spell sabre.
Polish cavalry used to charge with the sabre over rider's head, or pointed straight at the eyeline, almost parallelly to the ground, with the cutting edge to the rider's right handside, thus creating bearing area, which helped to "carry" the sabre.
lol... the way you present stuff is awesome XD
I have heard somewere that charging with the point is more of an european thing to do. Alone the stong curve prevents effective stabbing, also the grip of a tulwar sacrafices some reach by reducing your wrist mobility and forces you to get closer and there by hit stronger. So its generally a bit strange making a point about the european cavalry sabre with a tulwar.
with the tulwar they lead with the point not the blade its a funny style of fighting for a curved blade
Another advantage is that with a minor adjustment of your wrist, and the spine of the blade is quickly in a good position to deflect any oncoming pointy things (sabers & lances)
"Several species of small furry animals, in a cave, with a pict"....
That is true of sabers, because of their curve. The only way you can have the tip of the blade be perpendicular to your foe is either to have the "true edge" up, or to have your right hand near your right hip, which implies that you're not at an optimal range.
For straight blades, however, you can have a thrusting angle much more easily, moreso if you have your index over the quillon, in a sort of "pistol grip".
Having to tilt your wrist too far when striking removes its strenght, meaning it might bend back into a comfortable (albeit inoffensive) angle before your enemy's armor gives way.
Not only that, but holding the sabre reverse in such a manner allows for greater visibility of the "charge" signal via the outstretched hand and guard. So it's all-round superior, really.
Also, sabres and other curving or "axe-like" swords are used in sweeping, circular motions. Such positioning puts the sword "at the ready" just as charging in with a straight blade allows one to use the weight of their horse to drive the point into the enemy. In the case of the sabre, you are putting the momentum behind your swing.
I love this self correction looks like an early production .
This video is literally history
Awesome sweater.
@colmmcc Not these days, no, but I've done a tiny bit of kendo, and used to fence.
Good video, I believe that there was a model of American cavalry saber that was nicknamed "Old Wristbreaker" for that very reason.
It is a practical thing. Yes, European grips enabled different grips, but on a galloping horse, you wouldn't get fancy - you'd want to hang on tightly! The Indians often bought European sabre blades and added their preferred hilts to them.
Two things about sabers. One they werent used that much in later times. During the US civil war it was actually not that uncommon for cavalry men to substitute their sabers for more guns. Second it was also used as an instrument for officiers to give orders to troops.
If what I have been told is correct, the second reason cavalry sabres are held like this, and the main reason they curve, is they are intended to hang down in front of the horse's face and parry blows aimed at it.
The more pertinent reason for the reverse arched grip with the cutting edge uppermost relates to the truth about the majority of cavalry actions. In most cases cavalry would be deployed against weakened or broken infantry, with the expectation they would run. In this instance the actual cut would be preferred to made as a reverse cut as the rider overtook the infantryman. Thus the edge-up grip enabled a far more sweeping backslash that would target the face ,head, neck and shoulders. Equally, it incorporated a natural arc that kept the blade just a little distanced from the rider's legs and his mount, avoiding a self-impeding rebound or accidental strike.
It also facilitated better retention if the poiint had to be used in a spearing thrust.
This also enabled the use of wider, stronger, blunt spine in a clubbing fashion so that optimum damage would occur even though a neat edge-cut might not result.
Many cavalry weapons had deliberately blunt areas on most of the blade as clubbing accuracy was far easier to achieve than precise cut accuracy.
I own a kukri, but I don't know that I have anything very original to say about them. I shall give this some thought...
Hammersword
I would love some more points on pointing pointy sabers.
+ if you hold a sabre this way, you can perform a powerful cut which usues all your wrist and all.
I think I read somewhere that cavalry when charging men on foot would try to spear them with their sabers and then allow the momentum of their galloping horse pull the blade free as they sped past their (hopefully) fatally wounded victim. Just holding a plastic 12" ruler, this operation seems far easier with the blade in the "wrist breaker" position than pointing down.
Just a thought.
I see that you have developed a style of your own. The two holds I am comparing here though, both have the thumb at the blade end of the hilt.
I would have thought it would be because they had just drawn the sabres from their sheaths.
I partly agree but keep in mind that the Indian sword has a different handle that enforces the wrist being in a particular way. (Matt Easton talks about this in some video).
So for a cavalry saber that might be different.
But did anybody really hold out their swords while yelling "charge!"? I suppose they could've raised their swords for whatever soldierish effect, but I don't see any reason to keep them like that until actually reaching the enemy, at which point you swing it and choose your arm position in anticipation of the next enemy.
In addition: if you're charging on horseback you can do a big nasty slash from around your back with the blades curve facing the direction your horse is moving...
@lindybeige Scimitar, or shamshir, are more curved. Proper scimitars are curved so much it looks ridiculus. Also, usually lighter than european sabres. Scimitar was designed to fight from camel/horseback, sort of hit and run tactics. No stabbing, just slash (thus the insanely curved blad, to save your wrist on impact)
it was hold this way to make a proper strike, if you hold it pinky-down it'd mean you have to swing the blade backwards hold it then set it down, but if you hold it pinky-up what you do is make a single motion in a shape of an elips, you pull the sabre up when it reaches the highest point you turn it around and drop it, all in a single fluid motion.
Im not a specialist of cavalry attack ; ) but must note that if someone holds their sabre in that way outstraighted during attack his arm is tired before he reaches to enemy, some sabres are not so light. When cossacks attacked, they held their sabres at first freely, most of time down, and then made themselves "warm" circling sabres, and just before collision hold their shaskas high up for strong downward strike. It must be tireing to hold sword statically forward-straighted when galloping.
according to the sikh warriors they never clashed blades especially when using tulwars.
another thing would be as you are on the back of the horse draw the sword and try to hold it upright as you thought you should as a child, you have to flip the blade upwords, where as if you hold it how you saw it being held and as you conseed to it being held you dont have to flip the blade you simply draw and hold it in position with one smooth easy to do move that makes the ride less complicated.
@lindybeige: Actually, many shamshir (scimitar) blades were narrower than many military sabres. (On Damascus Steel, Figiel). The word "sabre" probably comes from the Arabic "Sayf", and it seems to have come into use from the east, from contact with the Ottoman troops armed with curved swords. Many old Persian shamshir blades also seem to have come into service mounted with Western sabre hilts in the early 19th century. So there basically is no hard and fast rule.
Very helpful video
I think the 1840 Cavalry sword used during the Civil War was considered so HEAVY and awkward to swing that it was nicknamed the "Wrist-breaker".
very interesting. Never thought about this issue.
You actually only hold a Talwar (along with most eastern blades) with only the pointer, middle, and thumb. The ring and pinky are loose so you can swirl the blade in circular forms.
I might be wrong, but as an ex cavalryman, a proper ex cavalryman once told me (i.e. he could ride a horse) that the hand was held inverted so that when contacting an enemy soldier, the point was guided down into him rather than potentially glancing up and off
Did they? Who called them this and when? Can you cite any period references?
also holding the sword downwards makes that you have a better position to swing at the enemy
Brillant ! Merci.
I believe sabers have their roots in the Caucasus as the Shashka (original Circassian name: Sheshkwe) which itself evolved from a machete. The Mamelukes carried them with them to Egypt. Either this or they had multiple areas of origin.
Both work fine.
Actually they're held like that because it's the strongest guard and facilitates the mulinet.
A very good point,a lot of western cavalry sabres have larger grips so that they can be held with more dexterity.Your tulwar's grip only allows you to hold it quite ham fistedly like a hammer,I think it would depend on whether or not one was attacking a man on foot at the charge or another cavalry man as to the angle the sword was held.Tell me is your sword an old fighting tulwar i.e sharp or one of the modern ceremonial ones.I thought of getting one but was concerned with the grip size.
Actually holding the blade behind the head was the actually way to hold the blade while doing a cavalry charge. That way your arm and back along with the wrist support the weight. The Civil war cavalry sabre is a good example.. Lots of Indian styled blades have that pronounced pommel, even there style of the khukri has a pommel just like the tulwar.
I'm not sure how appropriate that would be for something international like RUclips.
If you hold a weapon like that, with your thumb down, you can execute a whipping motion that will add some damn huge power to your blow. And about your explanation about charging on a horse and what not...one can simply put a sword on a shoulder or hold it without overextanding a wrist.
A downward blade is better for striking when you move past the target. Kinda like a pendulum.
The point of a saber IS THE POINT? Slashing left and right looks cool but largely infective in a charge. by the late 19th cent. both the British and Americans had realized this and issued sabers that were long and straight (in the U.S. it was the Model 1913 saber) and taught users to never bend the elbow in a charge but keep it and the saber straight like a lance, and yes, the wrist too.
You are the first person I've seen to explain this way. Please do more tulwar videos if you have more info. Not too many people know of the indian gatka/shastar vidiya martial arts
Perhaps they're forming a guard around their horse's head? I imagine that having your arm in that position you are able to quickly to guard your horse's head and flanks as you pass by infantry or other cavalry.
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"I am the King of Rome and above grammar!"
Sigismund of Luxembourg - the Holy Roman Emperor.
Do you teach history anywhere? Or give lectures or something? If you don't, it would suit you. I have learnt so much in the past few days of watching your videos, and the way you have the weapons to give examples makes it really fun to watch. And the axe sound effects you make in some of your other videos make me crack up everytime by the way
XD Love these videos!
I can't help thinking that the whole wrist breaking thing comes from the french masters who referred tonit in terms of breaking in the wrist. It definitely gets easy to use a sabre after your wrist becomes more supple over time. Not a long time either. I agree with lloyd though as I reckon that it was preperation for the cut or delivering a thrust at a moments notice. It would also make biomechanical sense. Why would you have your wrist fully extended and then be having the weight of that blade swinging on the joimt further stressing it. Its like you don't fully hyperextend your elbow in sword play on foot. You wouldn't want a joint locked if someone is going to parry it hard. Youve got nowhere to go. I think the whole business of having the sword right out in front during the charge is silly unless you consider the intimidation factor. Such as "see this point? That's going in you" then they run away. Unless they are russian troops wearing a greatcoat. Oops.
I suspect it would actually be better having the blade horizontal or diagonally upwards rather than downwards, much less likely to injure your horse and no wrist strain.
@yoitsmeitsmeitsddp He's been pictured with both the traditional European medieval longsword and the Hungarian saber. He might even have worn a Turkish kilij
honestly, I doubt that the saber would be held in that way, because it limits the actions you can do. In that position, you already committed to parring your inside/stomach and left side of the head/ face. This leave you open to an attack from the right. Plus its slower to slash from that position as you would need to do an overhead cut to make an attack. (FYI, it's called Parry 1 in most manuscripts and fencing).
Bless your commentary on biomechanics, but the primary "break your wrist" position can most likely hold out for much longer, as the attacker would most likely not hold themselves in the most-vulnerable position. The secondary position, blade down, is the classic shoulder-impingement position, capable of inflicting long lasting shoulder injury to the unsuspecting in a very short period of time.
This channel hasn't changed at all (2028).
That POOR horse! ~lol~
Instead you'd have it resting in your shoulder as you charge and slash with it instead when you reach an enemy