I’m an old country guy just getting back into recording, and as a drummer I’ve always been a ghost note player and I just want to say that I’ve learned more from your channel than basically any other one, I’m finally getting it right and I appreciate it
This is a great approach - I adopted a similar approach after watching a video of Acle Kahney from TesseracT demonstrated having ghost notes output to a different fader to process it separately, personally I use midi to trigger the sidechain to duck out the main snare hits just out of habit rather than triggering it via gated audio signal
How about using Shaperbox with an Envelope Follower on the Drive module on the ghost track, followed by a sidechained compressor module using the main snare as a SC. You could even throw in the Filter module with an envelope follower to hollow out the ghost notes like you have done here and finally a Width module with an envelope follower to give the ghost notes some movement that the main snare doesn't have. Just my two cents. Nice video.
To be honest, just some good compression on the kit normally takes care of bringing up the ghost notes, if I want them. More often than not, if the drummer plays some nice ghost notes, compression may make them too loud, hence some gating is needed. In your case, though I like the technical solution you went for, it does not sound "normal" to me. I would start with some nice compression on the entire kit (maybe high pass so the kick does not trigger the compressor too much) and play with attack and release time (attack to get the smack of the hard hits sitting right) and release to get the ghost notes to sit.
Did you tryed using Drum Leveler? Otherwise you could split the drum section and create multitracks, like the guys do with jungle music, if you wanna get very exact. Ableton automatically slices all your single hits and puts them into a midi track, you just need to go in and adjust that the transient begin at the right time. May be too time consuming to do on a whole song. But it gives very good controls over separate kick snare and hihat or any single processing.
These moments are really the most exciting part of mixing music for me! Being presented with a problem and having to think outside the box and be creative to achieve a solution. I used to think there were mixing secrets in my early years but it's really just the engineers that put deep thought into unique methods to overcome the challenge. Not some process they keep in a vault. When presented with this issue before i have asked: Why can i hear the ghost notes so well in the room but less when listening to the playback? And that's because (everyone knows) we listen to the kit and the rooms interaction as one whole and in mixes we tend to remove those interactions in favor of precision. So that made me think to include the accompanied bleed from other sources. (really really source dependant though) I would include or automate the bleed from toms, hats, ride and/or spot mics which partially reinforces the ghost notes, amplitude, tone and their length. Choosing which mics carefully, as to not to lift cymbal/shell decay and 'air' bleed. Sometimes it alters the overtones too much, or gets less articulate sometimes its just enough to cut a little. Your approach with your source, in my opinion, was a good match and I will probably steal it for future :P. I might attempt to squash the drum room a little more to get more from that but thats personal preference. Really enjoy your content!
I always judge how important the ghost notes are to the part because a good drummer will spend years developing the technique to play ghost notes quietly so they're felt more than heard. A drummer this good will have intentionally played them quietly to be quiet in the mix.
You're spot on! the drummers articulation is perfect and well controlled; ultimately though there was little room for that much dynamic on the final record so I had to take this creative liberty so they weren't burried away for the regular listener;
I basically do something very similar except reversing the order a little bit. Side chain the ghost track first (or create a gated duplicate with the polarity inverted), so if you use a compressor like you did, the main hits aren't having a big influence on that processing. That way you can really fine tune the compression just for the ghost notes themselves. I'll sometimes use some kind of intelligent gate like the Sonnox one before the compressor if I listen to the result and the level of the bleed isn't to my liking.
@@panorama_mastering in that case I would just cut out the main snares, put them on a different track and treat them independently. Have done that often enough too. The way you suggested is creative, but very coloured / extremely compressed.
Waves MV2 is great for such tasks. I like to automate the low level compression to whatever feels good. Follow that with a compressor/clipper set to only touch the louder hits.
Upwards compression is good for things like ghost notes I find. For anything quiet really, anything quiet that you want to bring up when you don't want to make the louder things louder. To be honest though, even using one, may benefit from adding in the method you devised for this mix, as TBH it's a really smart way of going about it, and sounds really dope.
I usually just run the snare really hot into the drum bus compressor (Kotelnikov) so it compresses around 6-7.5dB the main hits (the snare top is also compressed around 3-5dB on the channel with SSL XL9000 on Console 1 with slow attack and fast release). That way ghosts notes naturally get audible in the whole mix and they sound very natural also. Also I like to saturate the drum bus with ozone exciter set at 10.3-10.7 tape and 6.5-7% mix. It also help with smoothing out the performance and making the ghosts notes a tiny bit clearer.
I forgot to add that the snare bottom is compressed with a fast attack and fast release (SSL9000XL C1 comp) and it helps with ghosts notes definition a lot also
I struggle to name another channel that helped me as much as yours! Love the excitement and geeking out about all the nerdy details! I wonder, if I can hope to see a video on multiband compression and your thoughts on it and use cases. I've seen a lot of people using it on their master buses, but I'm not sure I really like the sound of it, even with it barely doing anything (ducking 0.5dB). It sort of cleans it up, yet also makes it more "boring" and "sterile". It's a helpful tool for individual instruments/buses, though, at times (like drums). Thanks!
Although, I've seen people using it on their master bus where it ducks like 2-3dB constantly. Which, to me, is insane. At this point I would go back and fix it in the mix, as it's always the middle band (low/high mids) most of the time.
Hey, Nic. You've been dropping nonstop bangers! I deal with Ghost notes with upwards compression, clipping, limiting, or simply clip gain. Your's is a technique that I'd like to try because of the character that it adds to the drums.
lets goo Nick! Your my number one source for obsessive learning and testing. 🔥 Quick one: My mixes tend to make use of trackspacer, dynamic eq, or soothe on the instruments bus, to 'carve out' space for the lead vocal, keeping the music musical, apposed to static eq. As the NoLeadVox mix is for live performances, should I TURN OFF this processing before I print (i.e. remove the trackspacer, so the instruments are no longer being ducked by the vocal sidechain trigger. Of course BGVs and ad-libs will still be present, but not the lead. I'm not familiar with live engineering, so let's just say you only have access to the stereo NoLeadVox mix, would the live engineer run the plugs in order to create the pocket needed for the vocals to sit in (e.g. soothe live, etc), or do you normally receive the instrumental with 'vox carve' burned in? In other words, should the NoLeadVoc mix be able to be summed together with the STUDIO lead vocal recording, or left as is? Thanks a lot in advance, really appreciate it!
Live sound is a completely different ballgame from the studio. Most venues will run the mix in mono, every room has different quirks, and every engineer has unique preferences and habits. Some will run plugins, most tend to rely on the board for the bulk of the work. The artist isn't gonna land the exact same performance every night, nor will they have the same FX chain on their voice. I would print the live mix without the side chained plugins and leave that choice for the people who know each individual room and system.
@@dooshnukem32 Thanks for your input, makes sense! When you say most live-engineers rely on their board heavily (I've heard this too), I'm guessing in this case they would just do a simple eq on the fly in order to create that pocket for the vocal if needed right?
@@RicherPodcast Yeah mostly basic moves right on the board - faders and EQ knobs. The room will literally sound different depending on how many people are on the floor, so those critical moves you'd make in a pristine listening environment just don't really matter in the moment-to-moment nature of live sound. I have seen higher budget venues use things like Soothe and Gullfoss, but typically only on the master bus. "I can hear it and it sounds good enough" is usually the goal.
as a drummer, i really appreciate hearing somebody ripping it like so. but, wow, what a difficult mix to contend with. the 90db of compression on the vocal lol, and the wall of sound mellow-ish strings/keys... it's kind of a shame to have such detailed drumming covered up by a wall of mush. i'd have to have a go at mixing it myself before i could comment semi-intelligently on your strategy. definitely a thoughtful approach, it all made a lot of sense in solo lol... cheers
I feel you; and complete respect I think one of the important things we need to observe as mixers is the creative collective of a project; some projects require us to see it through a lense looking at an arts canvas. This is the canvas the artist painted and it's important in my view to not push away from that;
I love your videos and this will sound a bit rude, but... Its kinda crazy that your videos sometimes seems like u r just flexing your producer friend how good u mixed something that only producers will notice and makes almost no change to most listeners, but thats probably why most of us watch your videos, because we like to talk about these things too and thats why i love them. BTW this mix tip u just showed sounds awesome.
Not rude at all; I actually thank you've latched onto one of my key focuses for the channel or creating content here on the channel; This is just documenting things I do or happen in the studio; there isn't a rhyme or reason to what I pick to share here; just purely things I think about, work on, and techniques I find interesting enough to share; I can't be assed trying to "carve out" a video script to fit the algorithm and get views. I used to and it was just exhausting and took the joy out of running the channel;
I would do pretty much the same way as you. Copy the snare and then mix the copied snare sidechain compression and trigger from the original snare into the original snare.. add a little EQ and saturation so you can get the quiet ghost notes more defined and become loud without the loud snare hits becoming too loud and you then the quiet ghost notes disappear again! But I think the voice is still a little too loud. the snare doesn't come into its own. but that's a matter of taste I think the mix isn't finished yet either 😉
If I was in your position I would: Gate main hits Print that. Double it. Flip polarity of one Put it in a BUS with the raw track. Gain match so I have just the ghosts Then print that So i'd have 2 channels. One for hits and one for ghosts. (edited a typo)
@@panorama_masteringI meant to say that I fell asleep at the premiere screen waiting for it to begin looking at the countdown haha, but I believe it's a good thing to have a schedule, but when dropping a vid spontaneously a premier mode could be useful to gather more fans or just watch along with them :)
The drum kit was never meant to be the focus of this; it's an interlude/part of a bigger project; so the drums are there for support/texture; it was interesting to balance the drums in this; because they are so damn good I loved cranking them; but I had to find a healthy middle ground;
![Jack Harlow - Hello Miss Johnson [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q86_nlRoIGw/mqdefault.jpg)
I’m an old country guy just getting back into recording, and as a drummer I’ve always been a ghost note player and I just want to say that I’ve learned more from your channel than basically any other one, I’m finally getting it right and I appreciate it
The drummer performance is dope! What a groove
INSANE Drumming!
Melodyne's note leveling macro also works on drums/percussion so you can bring up quiet notes and/or turn down loud notes.
This is a great approach - I adopted a similar approach after watching a video of Acle Kahney from TesseracT demonstrated having ghost notes output to a different fader to process it separately, personally I use midi to trigger the sidechain to duck out the main snare hits just out of habit rather than triggering it via gated audio signal
Waves MV2 works pretty well, upward compression.
I just used it on a snare with ghost note last week & it worked great 👍
Interesting!
Or tdr nova is free and way more precise
How about using Shaperbox with an Envelope Follower on the Drive module on the ghost track, followed by a sidechained compressor module using the main snare as a SC. You could even throw in the Filter module with an envelope follower to hollow out the ghost notes like you have done here and finally a Width module with an envelope follower to give the ghost notes some movement that the main snare doesn't have. Just my two cents. Nice video.
To be honest, just some good compression on the kit normally takes care of bringing up the ghost notes, if I want them. More often than not, if the drummer plays some nice ghost notes, compression may make them too loud, hence some gating is needed.
In your case, though I like the technical solution you went for, it does not sound "normal" to me. I would start with some nice compression on the entire kit (maybe high pass so the kick does not trigger the compressor too much) and play with attack and release time (attack to get the smack of the hard hits sitting right) and release to get the ghost notes to sit.
Nice! Thanks for sharing!
Did you tryed using Drum Leveler?
Otherwise you could split the drum section and create multitracks, like the guys do with jungle music, if you wanna get very exact. Ableton automatically slices all your single hits and puts them into a midi track, you just need to go in and adjust that the transient begin at the right time. May be too time consuming to do on a whole song. But it gives very good controls over separate kick snare and hihat or any single processing.
Great share!
These moments are really the most exciting part of mixing music for me!
Being presented with a problem and having to think outside the box and be creative to achieve a solution.
I used to think there were mixing secrets in my early years but it's really just the engineers that put deep thought into unique methods to overcome the challenge. Not some process they keep in a vault.
When presented with this issue before i have asked:
Why can i hear the ghost notes so well in the room but less when listening to the playback? And that's because (everyone knows) we listen to the kit and the rooms interaction as one whole and in mixes we tend to remove those interactions in favor of precision. So that made me think to include the accompanied bleed from other sources.
(really really source dependant though) I would include or automate the bleed from toms, hats, ride and/or spot mics which partially reinforces the ghost notes, amplitude, tone and their length. Choosing which mics carefully, as to not to lift cymbal/shell decay and 'air' bleed. Sometimes it alters the overtones too much, or gets less articulate sometimes its just enough to cut a little.
Your approach with your source, in my opinion, was a good match and I will probably steal it for future :P. I might attempt to squash the drum room a little more to get more from that but thats personal preference.
Really enjoy your content!
My pleasure! And likewise; these happy occurrence are what makes mixing exciting for me too!
I always judge how important the ghost notes are to the part because a good drummer will spend years developing the technique to play ghost notes quietly so they're felt more than heard. A drummer this good will have intentionally played them quietly to be quiet in the mix.
You're spot on! the drummers articulation is perfect and well controlled; ultimately though there was little room for that much dynamic on the final record so I had to take this creative liberty so they weren't burried away for the regular listener;
I basically do something very similar except reversing the order a little bit. Side chain the ghost track first (or create a gated duplicate with the polarity inverted), so if you use a compressor like you did, the main hits aren't having a big influence on that processing. That way you can really fine tune the compression just for the ghost notes themselves. I'll sometimes use some kind of intelligent gate like the Sonnox one before the compressor if I listen to the result and the level of the bleed isn't to my liking.
Nice! Great switch-up!
I often use a sample underneath the main snare and get the extra push from that, and can just turn up the compressed snare.
Me too! But for these drums; I didn't want to add any samples;
@@panorama_mastering in that case I would just cut out the main snares, put them on a different track and treat them independently. Have done that often enough too. The way you suggested is creative, but very coloured / extremely compressed.
What an amazing drummer 🤩
GOLDEN DRUMMING!
Waves MV2 is great for such tasks. I like to automate the low level compression to whatever feels good. Follow that with a compressor/clipper set to only touch the louder hits.
Upwards compression is good for things like ghost notes I find. For anything quiet really, anything quiet that you want to bring up when you don't want to make the louder things louder. To be honest though, even using one, may benefit from adding in the method you devised for this mix, as TBH it's a really smart way of going about it, and sounds really dope.
Good insight! Thanks for sharing!
for the parallel try 'negative' ratio comp/lim (or roll your own from a delta-solo gate + pol inv)
Nice! A few people have suggested this!
I usually just run the snare really hot into the drum bus compressor (Kotelnikov) so it compresses around 6-7.5dB the main hits (the snare top is also compressed around 3-5dB on the channel with SSL XL9000 on Console 1 with slow attack and fast release). That way ghosts notes naturally get audible in the whole mix and they sound very natural also. Also I like to saturate the drum bus with ozone exciter set at 10.3-10.7 tape and 6.5-7% mix. It also help with smoothing out the performance and making the ghosts notes a tiny bit clearer.
I forgot to add that the snare bottom is compressed with a fast attack and fast release (SSL9000XL C1 comp) and it helps with ghosts notes definition a lot also
I struggle to name another channel that helped me as much as yours! Love the excitement and geeking out about all the nerdy details! I wonder, if I can hope to see a video on multiband compression and your thoughts on it and use cases. I've seen a lot of people using it on their master buses, but I'm not sure I really like the sound of it, even with it barely doing anything (ducking 0.5dB). It sort of cleans it up, yet also makes it more "boring" and "sterile". It's a helpful tool for individual instruments/buses, though, at times (like drums). Thanks!
Although, I've seen people using it on their master bus where it ducks like 2-3dB constantly. Which, to me, is insane. At this point I would go back and fix it in the mix, as it's always the middle band (low/high mids) most of the time.
Thanks man!
Hey, Nic. You've been dropping nonstop bangers! I deal with Ghost notes with upwards compression, clipping, limiting, or simply clip gain. Your's is a technique that I'd like to try because of the character that it adds to the drums.
Thanks for sharing! It's been a pleasure sharing what's happening in the studio on the reg!
lets goo Nick! Your my number one source for obsessive learning and testing. 🔥
Quick one:
My mixes tend to make use of trackspacer, dynamic eq, or soothe on the instruments bus, to 'carve out' space for the lead vocal, keeping the music musical, apposed to static eq.
As the NoLeadVox mix is for live performances, should I TURN OFF this processing before I print (i.e. remove the trackspacer, so the instruments are no longer being ducked by the vocal sidechain trigger. Of course BGVs and ad-libs will still be present, but not the lead.
I'm not familiar with live engineering, so let's just say you only have access to the stereo NoLeadVox mix, would the live engineer run the plugs in order to create the pocket needed for the vocals to sit in (e.g. soothe live, etc), or do you normally receive the instrumental with 'vox carve' burned in?
In other words, should the NoLeadVoc mix be able to be summed together with the STUDIO lead vocal recording, or left as is?
Thanks a lot in advance, really appreciate it!
Live sound is a completely different ballgame from the studio. Most venues will run the mix in mono, every room has different quirks, and every engineer has unique preferences and habits. Some will run plugins, most tend to rely on the board for the bulk of the work. The artist isn't gonna land the exact same performance every night, nor will they have the same FX chain on their voice. I would print the live mix without the side chained plugins and leave that choice for the people who know each individual room and system.
@@dooshnukem32 Thanks for your input, makes sense! When you say most live-engineers rely on their board heavily (I've heard this too), I'm guessing in this case they would just do a simple eq on the fly in order to create that pocket for the vocal if needed right?
@@RicherPodcast Yeah mostly basic moves right on the board - faders and EQ knobs. The room will literally sound different depending on how many people are on the floor, so those critical moves you'd make in a pristine listening environment just don't really matter in the moment-to-moment nature of live sound. I have seen higher budget venues use things like Soothe and Gullfoss, but typically only on the master bus. "I can hear it and it sounds good enough" is usually the goal.
@@dooshnukem32 Gotcha, thanks for the insight!
as a drummer, i really appreciate hearing somebody ripping it like so. but, wow, what a difficult mix to contend with. the 90db of compression on the vocal lol, and the wall of sound mellow-ish strings/keys... it's kind of a shame to have such detailed drumming covered up by a wall of mush. i'd have to have a go at mixing it myself before i could comment semi-intelligently on your strategy. definitely a thoughtful approach, it all made a lot of sense in solo lol... cheers
I feel you; and complete respect
I think one of the important things we need to observe as mixers is the creative collective of a project; some projects require us to see it through a lense looking at an arts canvas. This is the canvas the artist painted and it's important in my view to not push away from that;
Love it buddy! Done this a couple of times, but Sound Radix drumleveler really helps these days.
I've used Melodyne for the same issue. I just erase all the regular hits and leave the ghost notes only. Add comp , EQ, etc, and blend as needed.
do you get any phase issues than ?
Interesting! Sounds like a cool technique!
@BuffR100 on the one song that I used it on, I didn't have any noticeable phase problem.
Can’t wait!
Amazing video, love your channel! thx for all the gems
Thats a brilliant idea
You're welcome!
very creative solution! respect!
I love your videos and this will sound a bit rude, but... Its kinda crazy that your videos sometimes seems like u r just flexing your producer friend how good u mixed something that only producers will notice and makes almost no change to most listeners, but thats probably why most of us watch your videos, because we like to talk about these things too and thats why i love them. BTW this mix tip u just showed sounds awesome.
Not rude at all; I actually thank you've latched onto one of my key focuses for the channel or creating content here on the channel;
This is just documenting things I do or happen in the studio; there isn't a rhyme or reason to what I pick to share here; just purely things I think about, work on, and techniques I find interesting enough to share;
I can't be assed trying to "carve out" a video script to fit the algorithm and get views.
I used to and it was just exhausting and took the joy out of running the channel;
I would do pretty much the same way as you.
Copy the snare and then mix the copied snare sidechain compression and trigger from the original snare into the original snare.. add a little EQ and saturation so you can get the quiet ghost notes more defined and become loud without the loud snare hits becoming too loud and you then the quiet ghost notes disappear again!
But I think the voice is still a little too loud. the snare doesn't come into its own.
but that's a matter of taste
I think the mix isn't finished yet either 😉
Amazing; thanks for sharing!
Muy bueno, muchas gracias
Waiittiiinngggg
Excited to share this one with you!
Maaaan I'm excited too. Sharing caring 😂
Killer Content Man! 🙏
So the smack is mainly just adding body to the hard hits by boosting the fundamental?
For me, yes! That body is super important to translating the energy of the snare through the mix;
How are you capturing the Ghost notes separately from the rest of the snare hits?
That's what he shows in the first half of the video.
@@qvarsebo not the midi... the AUDIO.
If I was in your position I would:
Gate main hits
Print that.
Double it.
Flip polarity of one
Put it in a BUS with the raw track.
Gain match so I have just the ghosts
Then print that
So i'd have 2 channels. One for hits and one for ghosts.
(edited a typo)
You're the second person to mention this! Thanks for sharing!
I would have clip gained it, but I have spare time for that kind of stuff.
wowww...this is super cooool
Subscribed
i actually fell asleep waiting for the premiere
Hey ! Do you guys like premier's and knowing when something is dropping?
@@panorama_masteringI meant to say that I fell asleep at the premiere screen waiting for it to begin looking at the countdown haha, but I believe it's a good thing to have a schedule, but when dropping a vid spontaneously a premier mode could be useful to gather more fans or just watch along with them :)
Really think its cool what you've done here, but i would just ride the fader, or only compress after downbeats.
Never say never
When you said you added loads of 200Hz, I thought 3db aint much, what are you on about? Then I saw your LMF gain! haha ok thats loads.
yeap!
good drummers make a song. oooOOOOoof
Vocals are too loud and.. The low mid range has too much resonance and clouding the whole drum kit.
The drum kit was never meant to be the focus of this; it's an interlude/part of a bigger project; so the drums are there for support/texture; it was interesting to balance the drums in this; because they are so damn good I loved cranking them; but I had to find a healthy middle ground;
I agree, insufferable vocals
"Promo SM"