Mazak Horizontal CNC Retrofit + Centroid.
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- Опубликовано: 14 янв 2023
- The retrofit project of my HTC-400 is about wrapped up. I documented well the first and last of the project, but should have done a better job of the in-between. This video covers the meat of the retrofit. I will do another video soon talking about the pitfalls and some of the other things I learned with this project.
This machine is now running beautifully. I've run a good amount of parts and it is cutting true to spec. Machine is set to cut at 800 ipm, 10K spindle speed, 800 ipm rapids and has full 4th axis contouring or infinite degrees of indexing on the B axis.
I'm currently working on finishing the pallet change function and getting the automatic tool length offset working as well as writing a custom macro for tool breakage detection within the Centroid control. I am VERY happy with the Centroid controller and would highly recommend this for anyone interested in doing a retrofit. So fun having a full CT40 HMC in my backyard to help me make anything I want to. 
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You might have a business right there retrofitting old machines. Very impressive
Sick. I have always wanted to do this. I can't believe you got it working. Great job!
Thanks! Yeah, it’s been quite the task but super fun to get it working and see it finally cutting. Having a huge 4th axis has been my dream forever so it’s awesome to be able to utilize it and make stuff!
Hello I have a old Hardinge cobra 65 lathe with Fanuc 21-t controller and thinking about retrofit it to I'd like to know if I can us the servo motors and the spindle motor?
I love the Centroid stuff.
Great controls man. I LOVE my machines.
Great job
Really happy to see the horizontal finished with the Centroid retrofit! If you should really post up this video and any other pictures you have in the Centroid forum under "Success stories"
Also, Centroid is about about to release a new board called the "Hickory". It's basically the Oak but will have EtherCat. I'm told they are just being delayed due to a component shortage.
Again, really happy to see you do this project and can't wait to finish my retrofit that much sooner!
Thanks for the comment! Glad to meet ya! Haven’t heard about hickory but if they get ethercat it would be a GAME CHANGER! I’ll have to hop on the success stories forum and get it posted. I haven’t seen any other horizontals on there so it would be fun to share with the centroid people.
Hey! That's my old machine! Or just like it. We traded it in ages ago for a handful of small verticals. Thanks for putting this video together, almost more work than the retrofit!
Haha that’s awesome! She’s an old girl but she’s like new now! Pretty happy to have this one up and running it’s been amazing for me so far.
@@ericschneiter Sure does give me a thrill to see one doing good work, it was a pretty solid machine back in the day, although we had nagging trouble with the 4th over its life, but as the least expensive horizontal available, we could forgive it.
@@yamahaeleven hopefully we’ve put most the skeletons to bed. I tried to rework some of the issues know on them. The drawbar bolts, the trunnion etc. she’s a smooth running girl now.
Excellent!
Great job ! 🙂
Dang man your an animal that looked like a massive project! Good job can't wait to see it rip!
Thanks for the kind words! Been a huge labor of love and I’ve enjoyed it! More cutting videos coming soon!
Man I recently just swapped a pos GSK control on my machine for a Servo Orion. All of the electrical cabinets components were already compatible, just needed a little re-wiring. That in itself felt like a huge undertaking (granted it was my first time doing anything with machine electronics) but holy shit, I couldn't even imagine attacking your retrofit with such confidence lol love it dude, keep killing it!
Haha oh dude, I knew I was in over my head. I should have documented the middle of it better I almost gave up. 😅 That’s rad tho I love seeing those sorts of DIY upgrades. I’ll be following along looks like you’ve got a cool shop! Appreciate the kind words!
Haha oh dude, I knew I was in over my head. I should have documented the middle of it better I almost gave up. 😅 That’s rad tho I love seeing those sorts of DIY upgrades. I’ll be following along looks like you’ve got a cool shop! Appreciate the kind words!
@@ericschneiter haha good on you, I went into mine thinking it wouldnt be that big of a deal and rather just plug & play and had to learn the hard way lol but learn I did. Looking back, I wish I would have documented the whole process in a video to share with other people trying to figure this shit out, but between trying to squeeze into like a 16" wide gap while sitting on the floor to access my cabinet with a flashlight, screwdrivers, etc. while facetiming my servo tech guy, getting video of it didn't even occur until I was finished lol. But thanks man, I'm getting there, my place is just limited in sq. footage (its a single car garage built back in the 50s lol) so not alot of room to work with, gunna have to expand one day, but out of curiosity, what exactly is the footprint of that horizontal? It looks a little bit smaller than most of the newer models coming out today. I would love to get a horizontal eventually, something like yours might be the answer.
@@wolfhausindustries hahaha dude I know the feeling. Started in an 8x8 shed with the tormach and NO room to work on anything. 😂 whole different story for you trying to do a retrofit too! That’s rad tho dude keep at it. This is a smaller horizontal, although same travel envelope as a 400MM machine. Not sure why it’s smaller but it is footprint wise. About 8X8x12 feet cube 16000 lbs or so. If you can find a hass EC 400 for a decent price I think those are probably pretty money. But this one popped up on a local classified and I snagged it.
@@ericschneiter Man I had to remove my spindle motor and completely disassemble my garage door to barely make the clearance moving my cnc in here, that was enough for me, doing a full retrofit in a tight space would be a nightmare lol def gunna keep my eyes open for something like yours though cuz I'll wind up adding onto this place eventually and something like that Mazak would be ideal I think.
Fantastic!
thx for the run down on the build i have purchased a htc400 and am about to do the same but with Masso controller and hoping to retain the drives, will try to get some vid of it
You’ll have to check if that control will work with SSC NET I know Linuxcnc has a way but I don’t know anything about Masso.
I'm using masso cnc controller on a bridgeport mill working great so thinking to do the same with my Hardinge cobra 65 lathe
So cool!!
Very cool endeavour. I have retrofitted a desktop mill and a desktop lathe with the centroid acorn. The motion control of centroid is very good. I also have a Mazak fh5800 with fusion640m which is a big version of that machine. It’s a great machine and the Mazak controls were very good for their age. I also have a mate with a htc-400 but with the older MPlus control. A side note, the tool carousel on his machine spins about 10 times faster than yours in ya video.
That’s awesome, I probably could have kept the 640M but man I really like having the control over all aspects of this machine now. It’s nice to be able to service on my own as well. Love these old Mazaks. Great machines! I’ve eyeballed a few of those 5800’s on eBay. A LOT of iron there haha! And yeah, I set this carousel slow on this machine because some of my fingers have lost their spring. So to make sure we don’t fling any tools we spin her nice and slow. Takes a little more time but smooth is fast and fast is smooth. 😂
@@ericschneiter the fh5800 has rapids of 50m/min, rather impressive machine. I setup 2 of our MPlus machines with the Ethernet option and have them networked and their ability to handle data is unreal for late 90’s machines.
Horizontal Trauma Center... Hated that machine.
Why? Tell us more? Does it bite?
@@sinchrotron it was colloquially known by mazak service as the horizonal trauma center. It was notorious for breaking down. The spindle design was poor, the grippers on the ATC wheel would throw tools, it was just built very poorly.
@@TheFeralEngineer ah, I see, I thought you ment "trauma" for the operator
@@sinchrotron nah, operators didn't mind it because they never really ran. It was always in triage.
you killed the video with that music
Double bass and screamo for you next time. 😂😜
Hey Eric, great job with the retrofit!! Where did you find a wiring diagram for the C2000 VFD? I have the 316 tech bulletin but coudnt find a wiring dia. Thanks
How does a kid that grows up in the golf business and has never taken any electronics or CNC classes rewire, program, retrofit and get two machines that were totally non-functional working perfectly?
You absolutely amaze me my son.
Supportive parents, and an old vacant shed. That’s all it takes pops. 👊🏼 💪🏼
Yea not a small undertaking at all.
I think you did a great job and got it running pretty well. I feel like I see a ton of retrofits that never really get finished.
Sad part is the accuracy of those original servos and encoder is probably much higher than what the new drives and controller will be able to achieve.
I looked into that before I began. My X and Y are Delta Asda A2 servos and motors. They offer 20 bit resolution with 1.28 million pulses per revolution. So they are 20% or so higher resolution than the original ones. 🙌
@@ericschneiterah very cool the delta motors seem a little more industrial the dmm servos last I checked were not impressive when it came to that regard.
I almost had an htc-400 once upon a time. But didn’t have the space for it and we’ll deft still don’t..
@@ianagos4276 You’re right one that unfortunately. I wouldn’t recommend DMM having done this. Delta has been amazing but I’m going to eventually swap out the DMM drive on the Z axis they just aren’t in the same league.
@@ericschneiter I know the htc-400 was mazaks budget line but what I also find Atleast on the ones I’ve owned is they oversize the motors compared to what I would think they need. Like my fadal motors aren’t in the same league as the stuff on the integrex.
When you first mentioned the drives for the new dmm servos were smaller I was just thinking there is no way they are the same horsepower.
@@ianagos4276 for sure. They were 1kw motors. Sounds like the same thing you’ve noticed haha. The x axis moves super easy, like spin with your hand easy and same with Z. The DMM just have a lower encoder count than the original Mitsubishi ones so I wanna up them to the Delta.
Y did you do this? Haha, I love that control!! I mean the mplus! U have my interest now...but if your gonna retro a machine Centroid is the best way
Haha I didn’t want to initially. But it had some issues and I like being able to work on my own stuff. I know nothing about the Mazak and meldas electronics so I swapped them. Very happy I did now that it’s done though.
Nice retro, i have done two machines with centroid now, one with oak and the other with an acorn. did you manage to get the optic direct to talk to a dmm dyn4? i thought that wasn't possible i thought the optic direct will only talk to a yaskawa sigma or a delta drive, it would be handy to know how you did it as i have 4 dyn4 drives setup for x/y/z/a and id love to add a 5th axis. also with the dyn4's do you ever see them occasionally fault out at power up after the machine has been powered down for a long time?
Cool! What was wrong with the 640m though? I used to run that control on gcode, couldn't complain
A long way from finding the on switch years ago😂
Correction: a long way from YOU finding the on switch. 😂
Nice work!! Just bought a 1998 Mazak and tossing up whether to retrofit to linuxcnc. Do you still have rigid tapping with that Delta drive?
What model you got? Have you used Linuxcnc at all? I don’t do any rigid tapping just because I prefer form tapping and I work in mostly stainless. Rigid is totally possible tho!
@@ericschneiter FJV-25, gonna be a big step up from what I've got. Must be so nice having a chip conveyer!! I've done a few machine linuxcnc, there's also the possibility of reusing the mitsubishi drives with it. Are you happy with the dmm servos? Are the original servos 3k rpm?
@@oliverrowe8648 that machine is sweet! Love the ones that look like a lathe from the outside with the door shut. If you can reuse the drives that’s the way to go. I didn’t wanna fight that battle so I decided to just switch and do a centroid conversion. The new centroid Hickory board is a game changer if I do any in the future. Linux can support the SSC-NET Mitsubishi stuff and I think it’s pretty good. Don’t buy DMM I switched my X and Y out for delta. Wasn’t happy at all with them. Biggest issue with changing the spindle inverter is retrofitting an encoder that will work. But if you’re up to it send it dude! Nothing like these old Iron mills on new electronics. They are so rigid and built to last.
@@ericschneiter awesome I'll give that a crack first, thanks mate
good job, did you changed the motor also?
Yes, all servo drives and motors. Spindle motor did not change but spindle drive did change.
Man, I have sliglty newer model, fh-5800 with 120 magazine and 6 pallet changer. Is this actually doable? New motors, drives, and oak board? Is that it? What about tool change and pallet change macros? Using mitsubishi motors not possible?
What about tool tip compensation or also known as dynamic compensation does that work?
4 axis simutaneosly?
Multille variables for active makro?
Spindle encoder for rigid tapping you used original? How did you count rpm with that board?
It’s doable. But you’re talking a VERY complex retrofit for all that. Keep in mind I had already done one full retrofit and this one was almost a 2 year straight project. Lots of things to tackle with these Mazaks.
The drives and motor motion are fairly straightforward. Getting the tool changers to work on these is more tricky.
Centroid allows for tool compensation in the control or you can use your software. It’s just typed into the offsets page.
4th simultaneous works, but getting the ratio on your trunnion dialed in perfectly is a super tricky process unless you can find documentation about how many turns per Rev the trunnion spins. I had to manually type in decimals and probe it time after time to finally get it to the zero point where it was turning the exact degrees commanded.
Rigid tapping is no problem, a new encoder on the spindle allows the board to rigid tap and it’s all built into centroid.
The final piece is scheduling your pallets, the centroid post processor has to be modified but can be done.
My opinion: if you run a production shop and you need a spindle for high volume go buy a newer working horizontal or something running and use it to your tax advantage.
Great job. I have plenty of questions. About to embark on vqc20 50b retrofit. Exploring options to replace everything from spindle motor and drive, axis motors and controllers and all the electronics ( reuse sensors). Mine has a specific orient position for tool change which is inbuilt into the controller with an encoder on the spindle. What spec motor did you have and what specifics of spindle controller did you end up with. This is the biggest headache for my retro. If I can get this sorted then I have a good path forward
I kept my spindle motor, I would assume you have some sort of Mitsubishi motor probably in the 15-25 horse category. I use DELTA inverters and drives on my retrofits but that’s just what I know. Can’t speak to Yaskawa or others. If you can find a mounting point or a way to create one on your spindle motor with a 1:1 ratio it’s pretty easy to do and get working with centroid. Besides that, just sourcing the right servo size and getting correct KW for your needs is the next big hurdle. Centroid is all I know so I’m not much help for a Linux or anything else.
Have your verified you have good runout on your spindle and minimal backlash on all ballscrews? I would start there. A retrofit is only as good as the iron it goes on.
@@ericschneiter I've had the machine since ~2016 and have had it operational for most of that time. I've redone the spindle drive caps and the igbts that are usually the problem, but about a year ago the axis drive has faulted and I've not got back to it before now. The spindle motor is a Mitsubishi 220v AC 5.5/7.5kw. It has its onboard pulse generator and a drives a gearbox that operates the spindle. There is an encoder on the spindle for position control for tool change position. Reusing the motor with a new spindle drive would be a good option if I can get it to work with the Mitsubishi motor and the nc controller (centroid as adoption looks great for this as long as it talks to the spindle drive). As for axis servos, I would replace them with new units timing in the new control system.
@@sophtayl try and find the nameplate information for your spindle motor. I’d imagine it’s the same gen as mine. Late 90’s era. You can control it with a delta drive, and new encoder. Do you know if the tool umbrella is servo driven? That makes it a little more complex but not impossible.
@@ericschneiter yes have the motor data. Mid 80s model. Permanent mag from my understanding so controllable to accurate position when tied into encoder on spindle. The controller needs to be able to manage this hence the question.
Tool umbrella is hydraulic drive from memory. A plc interface would be easy to back incorporate but all is doable
@@sophtayl gotcha. Delta c2000 will be able to handle your orient request. Tool change macro will be really easy, that machine essentially moves just like the other 3 axis tool change macros so shouldn’t be a huge issue. I think if you find the right servos you should be set man. Would be an awesome machine to throw a new control on and run for another 20 years. 🙌
I love what you did and how you explain your thoughts. I have an old 1997 Fadal I want to retrofit but sometimes I thinking, how would I sell jt after the retrofit? I would keep it forever after I think
No need to sell it after the retrofit if you’re using it. But the centroid control is really nice. Auto tool setter, probing, coordinate system rotation multiple axes: simultaneous milling and unlimited lines of code. I love it as a control now. A FADAL is a great candidate for a retrofit!
@@ericschneiter There are 2 specific options for Fadals. Calcmotion and NextGen but I think Centroid is a more robust product.
Awesome job.
Could you outline some of the rough costs for each of the components?
How tall is your ceiling? Looks like a tight fit.
Gonna drop a video next week documenting more of the costs and stuff for both these retrofits, But for this build I essentially had the following: $3K to buy the machine as scrap + rig it home and moved. “Rigged it myself “ Was into the drives, wiring, breakers, encoders and all the various boards from centroid for about 13K. Then random stuff you don’t think about: had the spindle reground for about 2K rebuild the drawbar and 4th axis and a custom PLC. Then coolant and lubes and stuff. My books show me sitting right about 19K total right now for everything to this point.
Ceiling isn’t very tall 8 feet to the garage door when it’s open. My shop is like 20 by 26 so with my machines in there it’s tight haha!
@@ericschneiter Nice, looking forward to the video and this thing making some chips. Wanting to do something similar in my 28x28 garage, been on the look out for a mechanically sound vertical to play around with. I'm somewhat familiar with linuxcnc, as I've built a couple gantry routers using Mitsubishi MR-J2 servo drivers and motors. Seems like the Centroid option is reasonably priced... if only I could reuse some of the Mitsubishi motors I've scored from ebay w the centroid Oak board. Currently have a small GT27 style cnc lathe.
@@blauschuh Mate thats awesome using mitsubishi MR-J2 servos, how do you find them price wise in comparison to other brands and how is tuning them?
@@jasonlennox4614 I bought all of my servos and drivers on ebay. I probably paid 10% of what I would have if I bought new. I hadn't played much with tuning, but there are plenty of options. I will saw that compared to the gecko drive setup I had before the Mitsu are in a totally different league.
@Eric Schneiter Still have the original Mitsubishi parts? Would be interested in buying the control, drives, and motors.
I’ve got the motors and the Mazatrol, with some other parts. Sold the drives already.😩 let me know if you want them.
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Fantastic video. But please drop The Music
Thanks for the feedback. 🙌
Hey Eric
Do you have a way to get in contact
I have a bunch of CNC machines all running linuxcnc
About to do a 22ton mazak horizontal.
I think it's this machines big brother mazak fh680
Anyway love to pick up any tips.
I have a pretty good idea on what to do. This will be my tenth machine but always love doing stuff the easy way
Too bad you can't use the old VFD and servo motor. The retrofit cost alot more that way. I've done 2x Acorn retrofit (router and plasma), cheaper controller than their OAK but I am glad I did went with Centroid. Greets from Eastern Canada ✌
Could have if I used Linux but I just love my Centroid stuff so much. I’ll have to check out your channel. Would love to see your machines.
@@ericschneiter I haven't done any videos on the retrofit. Only took pictures during the process
Do you have to program PLCs?
@@noithugian494 yes you will need a custom PLC to run a machine like this.
@@ericschneiter Is that PLC from Centroid and what is the name of that PLC?
@@noithugian494 it’s a custom built one for my machine IO
@@ericschneiter Is it called GPIO4D?
Can you give me the circuit diagram?
So, what was wrong with the controller? The 640 controller is MUCH better than a centroid controller. Im assuming that it needed a new CPU, which is about a $7500 fix.
I understand your doubts I thought the same before I got into Centroid.
The 640M is a dinosaur compared to this.
The Centroid runs infinite lines of code on an i7 processor without drip feed, fully customizable GUI, Macros, and PLC. Higher resolution servos by almost 30% over the ones that were on the machine, ability to make it 5 axis with advanced probing functionality including dynamic work offsets, cheaper electrical parts and the convenience of fixing any component by myself indefinitely into the future.
Can sell me the drivers and motors
Www.centroidcnc.com and the motors and drives are DELTA AUTOMATION
@@ericschneiter in talking about the once oubremoved from machine
@@ericschneiter please i need old drivers and motors you removed on the machine
@@seimela I have sold them already I am so sorry.
I don't think this machine is going to accurate or reliable its going to be a nightmare to work with
The electronics on this machine are now 20 years better than the ones it had. The servo encoders are 20% higher resolution. The control can run unlimited lines of code, now has complex probing routines built into it, is easy to service myself and works every time I turn it on.
@@ericschneiter how accurate is it ?
@@abdalrohmanmousa7405 My parts come out exactly spec’d to my CAD model. I’m the one who calibrated the ball screw resolution and tuned the drives.
@@ericschneiter you words encourage me to buy a machine and try with it
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