Yeah, it's funny how in the film they have real photographers but the stills photographer did something cool emulating another photographer who existed at the time but theres no reference to that. I've changed the title with 'homage' but it's not right still. Maybe the word will come to me. It's like he method acted as Avedon...Although looking at his later work he doesn't really shoot like this so maybe it was an intentional concept for this project? And yeah you can learn from your heroes but it's good to move on and go beyond that right? They call it standing on the shoulders of giants. What do you think if a photographer is dead? can you just totally plagiarize them and is that ok? They're not taking photos anymore are they?
@@PicturesOnMyMind But it isn't plagiarism. Especially here where the aesthetic cues are pretty common nowadays (white background, visible backdrop stands, etc). These cues become part of the visual language of photography. I think you're absolutely right that the photographer was emulating Avedon, but emulating someone's style isn't plagiarism. Especially when it seems to have been done as a deliberate and high-concept photo series. Even Avedon himself took ideas from other photographers. He certainly wasn't the first to show his background stands. Dovima with Elephants could easily be mistaken for an Irving Penn shot. Even the best photographers today pay obvious homage to the greats - See Dan Winters' photographs of Angelina Jolie and his Wired images of Ryan Gosling; very obvious homages to Avedon and Penn respectively. But he doesn't just come out and tell you that. As viewers we're meant to make those interpretations ourselves. Peeling back the layers and discovering the winks and nods is what makes the artform so rewarding. Even with these Watchmen photos; on first look: "these are really great shots", on further inspection: "they remind me of Avedon", going one step deeper: "holy shit, this is a meta project where he's taking these photos in the Watchmen world as Richard Avedon!" Think about how much that has added to your intrigue. That should be commended, not written off as a ripoff or plagiarism
@@JiveTrkey it's funny as I have checked out some photography RUclips channels and the comments are... well .. how do I put this nicely... not coming from a very informed position 🤣. I'm glad my videos are confusing/repelling the right people and attracting those who are capable of abstract thought and critical analysis!
I wouldn't say rip-off OR homage - I'd say Avedon pioneered a look or a technique that was pretty simple and accessible, and other photographers now use that too. I'd love that book though, I'm a huge Watchmen fan, ever since reading the graphic novel back in the late eighties.
So my title for the video should be: "This Photographer Used A Look / Technique That Was Pretty Simple And Accessible That Was Pioneered By A Legendary Photographer" I don't think that's gonna fit! Ha! Shall we make up a word? Everyone's doing it!
@@PicturesOnMyMind haha, I definitely wasn't trying to rewrite your title, the truth is rarely catchy enough! As for a word? Let's go with... retro-character-minimalist!
@@cadmus777 dunno... Retro-Character-Minimalist sounds like a Gen Z hipster dressing in vintage clothing trying to make up for a lack of a personality.
@@PicturesOnMyMind That would be amazing!! There are a lot of movies being shot all the time.. A lot of opportunity to document films being made. If someone documented all the movies they are able to, big, and small, that would probably result in a substantial body of work. I‘m wondering if anyone actually does this.
@PicturesOnMyMind would love to get to shoot large format on a low budget Si-Fi film especially if set in a post apocaliptic world.. Ave shot it before for a gallery show but access to sets and actors for weeks would be.great❤
I don't know if it's the clarity slider in combination with the shallow depth of field, but these photos seem to have this weird mix of soft and sharp that looks a bit off. Avedon's photos are crisp corner to corner.
Yeah I think there's some kind of crazy over sharpening going on. Obviously it's a very big book and they are working off 10 megapixel files in 2009. I've seen Avedons work in the flesh and it's life size and like looking in a mirror 🪞 the quality is insane.
Yeah, my first Dslr was a Canon 20d and it was 8 megapixels of magic! There's a new upscale feature in lightroom which is supposed to be quite good so who knows....you might be able to rescue all those tiny old digital files
It's obviously a homage. Watchmen is alternate history and Clay Enos was coveying the idea of making these fictional characters as if they were real people in the context of American history in the style of Avedon. That kind of metatextual reference is actually in line with the original graphic novel itself. In no way this book is a rippoff.
💯 it's part of the entire schtick of Alan Moore in a way isn't it? Also taking characters from disparate worlds and throwing them together, like the League of series
There is clear deference and respect being paid with this work. To claim Enos is passing off Avedon's work as their own is click-baity and frankly in poor taste. There is a big difference between inspiration and homage compared to theft and exploitation and I don't understand how a photographer would even think to interpret this as plagiarism.
@@PicturesOnMyMind I did and the fallout video and appreciate a creative celebrating the oft overlooked and underpaid work of set photography. I own book collections of Avedon's American West and Ad work and ordered my own copy of this Enos Watchmen book after watching your video. Respectfully, I still do not see this work as morally, ethically, or legally problematic and I still believe calling it plagiarism is very disrespectful to the artist behind the work you otherwise praised.
@@DaneDavenport you are using the word plagiarism. Theres the video, and here's some of the text from the video: Its a wonderful body of work but very derivative of another power house of portrait photography from the 20th century! So I get into that in this video too. Much like my previous video on the stills photography in the Fallout TV series there's something quite meta going on here!
@@PicturesOnMyMind Again, no disrespect to you. However you do use the term "rip off" in the video title, and in the video say Enos is ripping off another photographer (once with the qualifier "kinda ripping off" before saying it outright a second time). "Rip-Off (noun) 1. an act of stealing 2. to cheat, defraud, plagiarize 3. a cheap exploitive imitation" My point is that is not a light accusation, especially in the realms of academia and art. It also encourages others to use your expertise as a photographer to dismiss, downplay, or disparage this other artist's work and practices. It both saddens me to see an artist undercut another and also for the missed opportunity to encourage new photographers to look to the powerhouses of portraiture for ideas and inspiration when approaching their own commercial work and instead discourage them in fear of being called out themselves. There is enough bland editorial and promotional photography out there as it is.
@@DaneDavenport Thanks for all the comments Dane but I've always been about the currency of ideas and there is nothing new or original about what Enos did aesthetically... .it DOES work as a parody due to the nature of Watchman (Who Watches The Watchmen video) and in that context I think it's really cool. Hence the video. I don't think you quite understand the nature of visual language. This is carbon copy cloning of another photographers visual style. Let me give you an example you might gel with seeing as you're a musician: The Beatles and The Monkees... But thats not right either.... It's more like Austin Powers band Ming Tea and Jefferson Airplane. You dig? Nowhere is Avedon referenced either in the film or in the photo book. I was an Academic (up until recently!) and if you don't cite your references it can be plagiarism or even academic misconduct. Phew! If you are going to imitate another photographer... like really imitate them. I would say it could be seen as a form of ripping someones off. Lets say you took your cover songs on the road and said here's a new one. It's called The Man Who Sold The World.... and at the end you didn't say '...that was a David Bowie song...' (Love you Kurt x). Ultimately my title for this video was a primer for those about to watch it to consider how they feel about the work. For some it might be a rip off for others a homage and you know what.... For some it might be both. And that's just dandy.
I see people are bringing this up in the comments, maybe just don't question if it's a "rip off" or an homage, if it's very clearly an homage. It's a bit offputting and bad faith, and I clicked -despite- that title, not because of it.. Just call it that: Watchmen's Homage to a Legendary Portrait Photographer.
Doing that now! Thanks Garuda. I was attempting to do what you do in written essays by posing a question as a primer. I guess RUclips isn't ready for it yet.... But your kids are going to love it!!! 🎸🏫⚡
One more thing @garudapsn I'm not a pro youtuber so I'm making the videos first then coming up with a title. That's not the way the cool kids do it which is gaming it the other way which is looking for trending topics and keywords and making videos around it. Which to me is a bit yuck as I just want to make what I want! Ha. So I've got to re-edit a video due to legal issues around the music so I'll be re-editing and reposting it. Any idea for a better title for this? ruclips.net/video/amVce-dGAB8/видео.html
@@PicturesOnMyMind Yeha, it's a rough game out here in youtube land, but the algorithm seems to have blessed this video somehow to reach people. Ironically, the previous title may have been what did it, but it seems that for those of us who did click through, the title felt like playing right into the algorithm game to be purposefully clickbaity, which I understand wasn't the intention. Your showcase was great, and the video itself was good! I don't have a title suggestion for your other video, but I wish you luck and success with your youtube and photography!
Yes. I made a video in the past about Ohio and then used a CSNY song and nearly got it blocked! In this video I meant the real life event photographesd by Marc Riboud that the film is paying homage too. Trying to show that the world of Watchman is like our own but with variations.
They created a similar yet different reality for the story and the movie based off of real people and characters, so the set photographer "playing" a real-life photographer and recreating his style, is kinda poetic, imho 👏
@@PicturesOnMyMind While building my portfolio I was given the task from a local photographer to try and do a shoot in the style of Platon. Even with my next door neighbour as the model, (a retired Carpenter) I was pleased with the results.
i think its cool that they played homage to Avedon, and i think he really would be cutting it close to "ripping him off" if he went for large format film. He went his own way with the digital camera and i think that's nice for him. (Going for the style rather than the technique)
Yeah, it's hard to find the right word. It's more than homage, and emulated. It's like he method acted as Avedon but there' no reference to that. I've changed the title to add homage for now but it's not quite right. But shooting it on digital and saying this is different to Avedon is a bit of stretch, the proofs in the pudding and the pudding looks just like Avedon. If they had the stills photographer in the film as an actor playing Richard Avedon it would be different, there would have been a clear and deliberate reference. It's good to have photographic heroes but it's good to go beyond what they have done. That said Clay's later work for DC is way different and classic movie poster superhero style.
clearly they are ripping off terry richardson, the only legendary photographer worth talking about ever, and when anyone says "TOO EARLY" can always be chalked up as a failure
I never liked any of that superhero garbage for illiterates but this movie stood up. Worth spending more than 15 minutes unlike every single other of them. Characters were actually rather human than flat grotesque, alternative history not puke annoying, sad and irritating like those by Q Americano Imbecilino and the artistry of imaging obvious and actually pretty decent. Even if born in company of many bastards it does stands out from 99% average.
“Bruce Wayne doesn’t really exist, he’s Batman’s fake persona.” You may want to watch Batman again. Seems you missed some important details. Maybe you’re thinking of Clark Kent?
I always thought that once he became Batman that Bruce Wayne no longer really exists. 'Bruce' becomes an alter-ego to hide Batman's true identity. It's like he's consumed by the dark knight and the normal life he has is just a front.
No, Bruce Wayne is very much real. Batman is the personae he created to seek justice. Neither is fake or less than the other. His actions as Bruce Wayne are just as important as his actions as Batman. Clark Kent is a completely fake and contrived identity. A cover story. His job as a reporter is to be as unexceptional as possible. He frequently sabotages his work as a reporter so he doesn’t find the limelight. Superman is who he actually is, but the world doesn’t accept him in that form. Superman has to go away when too many people gather because he can’t exist as a person in this world - only a legend or hero.
"Ripped off" is a bit harsh. It's an homage. And every photographer emulates the ones that came before to some extent.
Yeah, it's funny how in the film they have real photographers but the stills photographer did something cool emulating another photographer who existed at the time but theres no reference to that. I've changed the title with 'homage' but it's not right still. Maybe the word will come to me. It's like he method acted as Avedon...Although looking at his later work he doesn't really shoot like this so maybe it was an intentional concept for this project? And yeah you can learn from your heroes but it's good to move on and go beyond that right? They call it standing on the shoulders of giants. What do you think if a photographer is dead? can you just totally plagiarize them and is that ok? They're not taking photos anymore are they?
@@PicturesOnMyMind But it isn't plagiarism. Especially here where the aesthetic cues are pretty common nowadays (white background, visible backdrop stands, etc). These cues become part of the visual language of photography. I think you're absolutely right that the photographer was emulating Avedon, but emulating someone's style isn't plagiarism. Especially when it seems to have been done as a deliberate and high-concept photo series. Even Avedon himself took ideas from other photographers. He certainly wasn't the first to show his background stands. Dovima with Elephants could easily be mistaken for an Irving Penn shot. Even the best photographers today pay obvious homage to the greats - See Dan Winters' photographs of Angelina Jolie and his Wired images of Ryan Gosling; very obvious homages to Avedon and Penn respectively. But he doesn't just come out and tell you that. As viewers we're meant to make those interpretations ourselves. Peeling back the layers and discovering the winks and nods is what makes the artform so rewarding. Even with these Watchmen photos; on first look: "these are really great shots", on further inspection: "they remind me of Avedon", going one step deeper: "holy shit, this is a meta project where he's taking these photos in the Watchmen world as Richard Avedon!"
Think about how much that has added to your intrigue. That should be commended, not written off as a ripoff or plagiarism
@@JiveTrkey yeah that's a pinning comment worthy reply! Cheers Jive Turkey
@@PicturesOnMyMind Thanks dude. All the credit to you for making a thought provoking video in the first place. You've got a new subscriber
@@JiveTrkey it's funny as I have checked out some photography RUclips channels and the comments are... well .. how do I put this nicely... not coming from a very informed position 🤣. I'm glad my videos are confusing/repelling the right people and attracting those who are capable of abstract thought and critical analysis!
What an amazing collection of shots and 5:22 so 🔥
It's a big book. I wonder what didn't make the cut!
I wouldn't say rip-off OR homage - I'd say Avedon pioneered a look or a technique that was pretty simple and accessible, and other photographers now use that too. I'd love that book though, I'm a huge Watchmen fan, ever since reading the graphic novel back in the late eighties.
So my title for the video should be: "This Photographer Used A Look / Technique That Was Pretty Simple And Accessible That Was Pioneered By A Legendary Photographer" I don't think that's gonna fit! Ha! Shall we make up a word? Everyone's doing it!
@@PicturesOnMyMind haha, I definitely wasn't trying to rewrite your title, the truth is rarely catchy enough! As for a word? Let's go with... retro-character-minimalist!
@@cadmus777 dunno... Retro-Character-Minimalist sounds like a Gen Z hipster dressing in vintage clothing trying to make up for a lack of a personality.
@@PicturesOnMyMind damn, you're right. Let's just go with rip off! ;-)
@@cadmus777 hahahha! What about The Dr Manhatten Experience feat Sally and the Jupiters?
Maybe worth making a little series of videos about photos taken on film sets!
Maybe someone gives me a job to photograph on film sets!!! 🙏
@@PicturesOnMyMind That would be amazing!! There are a lot of movies being shot all the time.. A lot of opportunity to document films being made. If someone documented all the movies they are able to, big, and small, that would probably result in a substantial body of work. I‘m wondering if anyone actually does this.
@PicturesOnMyMind would love to get to shoot large format on a low budget Si-Fi film especially if set in a post apocaliptic world.. Ave shot it before for a gallery show but access to sets and actors for weeks would be.great❤
@@chrisallton4409 the dream!!!!!
@@PicturesOnMyMind applying to arts Council funding tomorrow ❤️🥒🤴
This is the book that made want to own a Nikon D3!
This algorithm. The video rocks. Maybe we need a new social media site?
You found it!
I don't know if it's the clarity slider in combination with the shallow depth of field, but these photos seem to have this weird mix of soft and sharp that looks a bit off. Avedon's photos are crisp corner to corner.
Yeah I think there's some kind of crazy over sharpening going on. Obviously it's a very big book and they are working off 10 megapixel files in 2009. I've seen Avedons work in the flesh and it's life size and like looking in a mirror 🪞 the quality is insane.
@@PicturesOnMyMind Yeah I've seen them as well, the huge group shots were especially crazy. I can't even imagine how they would print them.
The hero shots remind me of Herb Ritts' shots of the Batman 1989 cast.
Oh wow incredible reference! Just checked them out! yes!
Great video
Thank you!!!!
Is it Diane Arbus?
Nope
@@PicturesOnMyMind D200 rocks!
I really digging the recent vids
Thank you, that really kind to say.
Interesting 🙏 can't believe the files were only 10mp!
Yeah, my first Dslr was a Canon 20d and it was 8 megapixels of magic! There's a new upscale feature in lightroom which is supposed to be quite good so who knows....you might be able to rescue all those tiny old digital files
The guy did a nice job, but you’re right large format is unbelievable when you look at it in real life
Platon?
Closer
Comedian’s stone double looks like Jamie Lannister
A comedian always pays his debts.
It's obviously a homage. Watchmen is alternate history and Clay Enos was coveying the idea of making these fictional characters as if they were real people in the context of American history in the style of Avedon. That kind of metatextual reference is actually in line with the original graphic novel itself. In no way this book is a rippoff.
💯 it's part of the entire schtick of Alan Moore in a way isn't it? Also taking characters from disparate worlds and throwing them together, like the League of series
There is clear deference and respect being paid with this work. To claim Enos is passing off Avedon's work as their own is click-baity and frankly in poor taste. There is a big difference between inspiration and homage compared to theft and exploitation and I don't understand how a photographer would even think to interpret this as plagiarism.
Have you watched the video? 👍
@@PicturesOnMyMind I did and the fallout video and appreciate a creative celebrating the oft overlooked and underpaid work of set photography.
I own book collections of Avedon's American West and Ad work and ordered my own copy of this Enos Watchmen book after watching your video. Respectfully, I still do not see this work as morally, ethically, or legally problematic and I still believe calling it plagiarism is very disrespectful to the artist behind the work you otherwise praised.
@@DaneDavenport you are using the word plagiarism. Theres the video, and here's some of the text from the video: Its a wonderful body of work but very derivative of another power house of portrait photography from the 20th century! So I get into that in this video too. Much like my previous video on the stills photography in the Fallout TV series there's something quite meta going on here!
@@PicturesOnMyMind Again, no disrespect to you. However you do use the term "rip off" in the video title, and in the video say Enos is ripping off another photographer (once with the qualifier "kinda ripping off" before saying it outright a second time).
"Rip-Off (noun) 1. an act of stealing 2. to cheat, defraud, plagiarize 3. a cheap exploitive imitation"
My point is that is not a light accusation, especially in the realms of academia and art. It also encourages others to use your expertise as a photographer to dismiss, downplay, or disparage this other artist's work and practices. It both saddens me to see an artist undercut another and also for the missed opportunity to encourage new photographers to look to the powerhouses of portraiture for ideas and inspiration when approaching their own commercial work and instead discourage them in fear of being called out themselves. There is enough bland editorial and promotional photography out there as it is.
@@DaneDavenport Thanks for all the comments Dane but I've always been about the currency of ideas and there is nothing new or original about what Enos did aesthetically... .it DOES work as a parody due to the nature of Watchman (Who Watches The Watchmen video) and in that context I think it's really cool. Hence the video. I don't think you quite understand the nature of visual language. This is carbon copy cloning of another photographers visual style. Let me give you an example you might gel with seeing as you're a musician: The Beatles and The Monkees... But thats not right either.... It's more like Austin Powers band Ming Tea and Jefferson Airplane. You dig? Nowhere is Avedon referenced either in the film or in the photo book. I was an Academic (up until recently!) and if you don't cite your references it can be plagiarism or even academic misconduct. Phew! If you are going to imitate another photographer... like really imitate them. I would say it could be seen as a form of ripping someones off. Lets say you took your cover songs on the road and said here's a new one. It's called The Man Who Sold The World.... and at the end you didn't say '...that was a David Bowie song...' (Love you Kurt x). Ultimately my title for this video was a primer for those about to watch it to consider how they feel about the work. For some it might be a rip off for others a homage and you know what.... For some it might be both. And that's just dandy.
The movie had a better and more focused plot than the comic.
WAIIT!!! WHAAAAT!!!!! i need that book!
Plenty about, I got mine for £12! Go get it!
I see people are bringing this up in the comments, maybe just don't question if it's a "rip off" or an homage, if it's very clearly an homage. It's a bit offputting and bad faith, and I clicked -despite- that title, not because of it.. Just call it that: Watchmen's Homage to a Legendary Portrait Photographer.
Doing that now! Thanks Garuda. I was attempting to do what you do in written essays by posing a question as a primer. I guess RUclips isn't ready for it yet.... But your kids are going to love it!!! 🎸🏫⚡
One more thing @garudapsn I'm not a pro youtuber so I'm making the videos first then coming up with a title. That's not the way the cool kids do it which is gaming it the other way which is looking for trending topics and keywords and making videos around it. Which to me is a bit yuck as I just want to make what I want! Ha. So I've got to re-edit a video due to legal issues around the music so I'll be re-editing and reposting it. Any idea for a better title for this? ruclips.net/video/amVce-dGAB8/видео.html
@@PicturesOnMyMind Yeha, it's a rough game out here in youtube land, but the algorithm seems to have blessed this video somehow to reach people. Ironically, the previous title may have been what did it, but it seems that for those of us who did click through, the title felt like playing right into the algorithm game to be purposefully clickbaity, which I understand wasn't the intention.
Your showcase was great, and the video itself was good! I don't have a title suggestion for your other video, but I wish you luck and success with your youtube and photography!
Ever heard of Orangeburg Massacre or Jackson State killings or even Kent State massacre?
Yes. I made a video in the past about Ohio and then used a CSNY song and nearly got it blocked! In this video I meant the real life event photographesd by Marc Riboud that the film is paying homage too. Trying to show that the world of Watchman is like our own but with variations.
They created a similar yet different reality for the story and the movie based off of real people and characters, so the set photographer "playing" a real-life photographer and recreating his style, is kinda poetic, imho 👏
Totally! 💯
The white of the eyes over edited though.
I was going to guess they were emulating Platon, maybe there are quite a few.
Platon is Mr Wide angle though. I met him once 20 years ago and he was super generous with his time and really supportive, what a champ. 🏆
@@PicturesOnMyMind While building my portfolio I was given the task from a local photographer to try and do a shoot in the style of Platon. Even with my next door neighbour as the model, (a retired Carpenter) I was pleased with the results.
i think its cool that they played homage to Avedon, and i think he really would be cutting it close to "ripping him off" if he went for large format film. He went his own way with the digital camera and i think that's nice for him. (Going for the style rather than the technique)
Yeah, it's hard to find the right word. It's more than homage, and emulated. It's like he method acted as Avedon but there' no reference to that. I've changed the title to add homage for now but it's not quite right. But shooting it on digital and saying this is different to Avedon is a bit of stretch, the proofs in the pudding and the pudding looks just like Avedon. If they had the stills photographer in the film as an actor playing Richard Avedon it would be different, there would have been a clear and deliberate reference. It's good to have photographic heroes but it's good to go beyond what they have done. That said Clay's later work for DC is way different and classic movie poster superhero style.
It "happens" when Avedon was hot, so makes sense.
Avedon
muahaha
clearly they are ripping off terry richardson, the only legendary photographer worth talking about ever, and when anyone says "TOO EARLY" can always be chalked up as a failure
Either TR or Daine Arbus, one of the two
"Uncle Terry"
Could already tell you’d get angry Snyder fans complaining before even watching it.
🤣
Subscribed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
🤠🏆
I never liked any of that superhero garbage for illiterates but this movie stood up. Worth spending more than 15 minutes unlike every single other of them. Characters were actually rather human than flat grotesque, alternative history not puke annoying, sad and irritating like those by Q Americano Imbecilino and the artistry of imaging obvious and actually pretty decent. Even if born in company of many bastards it does stands out from 99% average.
“Bruce Wayne doesn’t really exist, he’s Batman’s fake persona.”
You may want to watch Batman again. Seems you missed some important details.
Maybe you’re thinking of Clark Kent?
I always thought that once he became Batman that Bruce Wayne no longer really exists. 'Bruce' becomes an alter-ego to hide Batman's true identity. It's like he's consumed by the dark knight and the normal life he has is just a front.
No he didn’t. Bruce Wayne is the mask. Batman is his true identity now. You missed out on that, pal 😂
No, Bruce Wayne is very much real. Batman is the personae he created to seek justice. Neither is fake or less than the other. His actions as Bruce Wayne are just as important as his actions as Batman. Clark Kent is a completely fake and contrived identity. A cover story. His job as a reporter is to be as unexceptional as possible. He frequently sabotages his work as a reporter so he doesn’t find the limelight. Superman is who he actually is, but the world doesn’t accept him in that form. Superman has to go away when too many people gather because he can’t exist as a person in this world - only a legend or hero.
When people say RZed instead of Zee it sounds rediculous
If you liked that you should hear how I've pronounced Diane Arbus for 30 years!