And she's been consistently robbed of her due. She could lay claim to nearly 80% of drow worship,100% of chitin worship,100% of intelligent arachnid worship,and at least half of Aerena worship,but still gets ranked as a lesser or intermediate goddess. The drow sub-race out numbers the other Elven sub races on toril,and yet Lolth is still ranked no higher than a typical member of the seldarine that only has one sub-race of dwindling eladrin on worshipping them on that same world. One cant say her worshippers lack fervor, and she don't have the numbers. For crying out loud one city of her drow worshippers has a population of 100,000 by itself. Not to mention the broods and egg clutches her spider-kin birth. A deity only needs one million worshippers to gain greater god status. She should have had that amount way before the time of troubles. She shouldnt have needed to go silent to level up...unless that's the process she had to use to convert their worship energies into her level-up..oh wow..and AO stole it from her..again. obviously if she's had a high number of worshippers for millennia then this probably wasn't her first level up event. Just saying...none of the drow history has ever spoken of her becoming...silent before.
I remember there was a thread on the D&D forum a LONG while back that theorized about the "Gods Of The Mirrorverse." In the Mirrorverse I can see Lolth as the Spymistress Goddess of the Drow trying to keep the multiverse free from the iron fist of Corellon Larethian, leader of the Elvish Reich. The forum already had given some level of fleshing out to some other Gods such as "Gruumsh Three Eye" who tricked Corellon into a blow that opened his third eye, & granting him enlightenment. I can see Mirrorverse Lolth feeding Gruumsh information from her multplanar web of spies & informants. As a Chaotic Good deity I envision she'd have a moving spider shaped palace that drifted between The Beastlands, Arborea, Ysgard, & even sometimes as far as Limbo.
5:23 The part where Lolth not only refuses Ghaunadaur’s offer but absolutely destroys him will never stop being funny to me. Your narration of the events only makes it even more funny 🤣
Ah, Lolth. Last time, she was a treacherous elven goddess. Now, she is a demonic spider Lady. Can't wait to see her rise back to a demonic goddess and near constant source of strife, deception, infighting, self-destruction, and mutation for her chosen people.
Lolth is such an amazing goddess, I really enjoyed the R.A Salvatore novels where she becomes the spider queen. I always see her as very similar to Queen Tahkisis from Dragonlance bar the obvious links to tiamat, of course
6:00 BRO WHAT I spent an entire year researching to find out what the hell Ghaunadaur was. It looks like now that I've finally played him in front of my party, I now have an entire year of learning *who* Ghaunadaur is. Ghaaa.. this sentance is so good I am just glad that I'm hearing it now, and ruined that I did not hear it earlier.
I knew ALLLLL of this lore you've been saying recently in terms of points and lines and the surprises were in the manner of connection between things, and reasonings. The reasonings are the good sh**. BUT THE LEGIT REASON WHY OOZES HAVE BAD INT AS BEING A HIGHLY RELATABLE FLAW INSTILLED UPON AN OTHERWISE ORDINARY RACE EN MASSE AND bruhh
So to access an entire greater god source of divine power, you have to just restore or otherwise empower their ooze followers. Juiblex's plans just keep getting more terrifying. Ghaunadaur doesn't even act in its own best interests. So many parts, pieces, and portfolios left out in the lore completely up for grabs.
Yo aj, imagine somehow that character (from that one book on the promenade of eilistraee in combat with the chasm of Ghaunadaur beneath Waterdeep where Ghaunadaur's avatar was held in this drow's body who then got lost in a maze) out of their maze and have that divine energy snatched up by an already similarly powered up Juiblex. Imagine they simultaneously use their madness over oozes in Faerun in some ritual to direct and control the madness of the oozes in a way to kind of strong-arm the followers of ghaunadaur into having some dark resemblance to their ancient prayers, and begin accessing the lost greater god power of Ghaunadaur- routing it into Juiblex as the wielder of the most nearby pieces of Ghaunadaur's divine essence. In 1487, pre Ao's return to prominence in Toril. You just made my vague late-game threats *so much more real*.
@@PattPlays Picture a scenario where Tharizdun escapes his dream prison and the prime material plane is alerted by the thundering voice of Tharizdun speaking directly through every burping, bubbling and splattering ooze which boil up to the surface of the worlds of the prime material plane, as the Beholders suddenly gain divine power, the Astral Dreadnoughts eat every portal in the astral plane, cutting off access between the gods and their mortal worshippers, Obox-ob, Juiblex and Ghaunadaur merge back together and rejoin with the mind and will of Tharizdun, and the barriers between planes of existence begin to shatter, turning the prime material plane into a living nightmare, more like the Far Realm, except magic, psionics and divine power no longer function, the undead simply explode and all living beings are reduced to crawling, mewling animals, dominated by the great eye of Tharizdun, as he rips reality apart, his every thought manifesting temporary realities and in the voids of chaos, great beings of the primal multiverse, finally free of the hated stability and the suppression of the gods, swim freely and consume chunks of what was, as what will be begins to form around them.
I have an Eladrin rogue who has taken up the mission of inviting all servants of Eillestrae to come live in the Feywild. He explained to them that this isn’t pity but justice. The Feywilde is their home by right.
I've been hammering away at the cosmology of my dnd setting, and after a lot of consideration, you've convinced to include lolth. I wanted to see if I could come up with better stuff than fg, but I think certain characters are too compelling to leave out, llolth being one of them.
3:40 Because of the recent strange dreams my Duergar character has been having, any time he see's a spell weaver, even if it's an image he becomes absolutely terrified. And he doesn't even know why because he can't puzzle out what the dreams actually pertain to. He just knows the fear is very, very real, and that something needs to be done, he just doesn't know what.
Ah... I was just about to leave RUclips for the night until I got an AJ Pickett notice. I had to click. No regrets. And DANG... Lolth is a clever one. So, demon and lesser goddess. For all she does, I'd expect her to be near greater goddess but I digress. She'd probably have to let go of her demon status to climb that ladder.
@@Thkaal lolth doesn't make any of those things. She doesn't even create her own web dresses. Her spiders do it. She hasn't been able to weave anything symmetric since her banishment. I'm sure that is part of her reason for hating Correllon considering the fact that before her fall,she was the Elven goddess of artisans, inventors, and wove the destiny and fate the mortal elves at one time. Besides..the power of creation is one of the things that sats greater gods above the rest. Sure after her silence she could do it. That's how she created her abyssal widows from our legend and gave them the strength of a solar or demi-God. Remember she doesn't even create her yochlols from scratch. She warps and mutates succubi with a vat of raw chaos" oose" and a a butt-load of pain to create them.
This actually makes for a great prologue for the War of the Spider Queen hexalogy! When I was on the book involving the drow queen of the dead, I had no idea the defeated lord they were talking bout was Orcus until now. Won’t spoil the method she used to defeat him tho... anyway this was just as phenomenal as the first! Great job...for a mere male...
Obviously the method didn't stick. Orcus literally rose from the dead and murdered a GREATER GOD before deciding it was the to go home a reclaim thanstos THE BELLY OF DEATH from her. He sent her running back to the DemonWebs pits of lolth.
@@skankhunt4588 the event I’m talking about was occurred in The Lady Penitent trilogy. She entered into the battle, represented by a sava game, going on between Lolth and Ellistraee antagonistic to both. She also, if I’m recalling it properly, dies as a result of the conflict. Don’t want to spoil the plot too much incase anyone looking at this decides to read it. All the protagonists are drow lol.
I was looking for part 3 has it been posted yet. Love the first 2 parts its giving me ideas for running a couple of games for my nieces and nephew they love DnD. They found my old sets from the 80s and early 90s and asked me what they where and if I would teach them to play and its been a god send during the pandemic. Whole family is getting into it. DnD is timeless.
I swear I need to find every scrap of source material for this info and compile it into a detailed, annotated timeline and notating what is Greyhawk from Faerun because Araushnee/Lolth is so fucking fascinating but what happened and when is a little confusing even with this incredibly detailed series of yours.
That was amazing. I have recently read through Demihuman Deities again, but this is so much better! May I ask where you found the information? I love anything fiend related -- typically being "Team 'loth", but these tanar'ric shenanigans sound fascinating. This is the first time I am actually interested in a topic related to elves ;) Very much looking forward to the third part of this epic saga.
Oh I am pulling every resource there is to get as much info as I can, even reaching out to the original authors (within reason, they did write this stuff twenty years ago).
There's more than one origin for them. In Evermeet, there are dark elves on Faerun before the descent-Ka'Narlist, Ghaunadaur's High Priest in the city of Atornash was one in that time period and thee are described with the typical drow features we are familiar with. Ebony skin, white hair, red eyes. In that version, there really wasn't any change in their physical appearance when they were banished to the underdark and named Drow. In another version, Dark Elves didn't have the white hair and were brown-skinned like the Green Elves until they were banished in the Crown Wars and were magically transformed as part of a curse. I think in the most recent 5e version the mortal elves that sided with Lolth when she betrayed Corellon as a goddes were transformed into drow. In all versions, there were two Dark Elven civilizations, IIRC one in West Faerun (Miyeritar), and One in the South(Ilythiir). Miyeritar got smashed in the Crown Wars so most Drow have stronger ancestral ties to the later than the former. After the descent, the Drow invaded the Dwarven Homeland in what is now the Great Rift and conquered in, forming the first (and only real) Drow Empire....which was destroyed by magical mishap, leaving only a few scattered outposts from the great empire. Menzoberranzean and its sister city Ched Nassad were actually formed by a band of refugees who had been rendered wandering nomads from this disaster.
In my Dragon-hammer, I have it so in the Verden-sphere, elves and Orcs we once one race that devolved into 2 separate races. How would that work in regards to aspects and Corellon and gruumsh
They would be estranged brothers. The first elves of Faerun (the Green elves) included winged elves, elves that could turn into wolves and aquatic elves, so, Gruumsh could be the more animalistic, predatory aspect of nature and the first orcs would have been like elven shifters that could take on werecreature-like forms... the Drow have an ancient taint of demon within them, which is why they now have pitch black skin and red or violet eyes, white hair and some innate magical powers, the original dark elves had dark brown skin, black hair and light colored eyes that was quite strikingly attractive, so, it explains why the Drow skin never became pale from living underground, its like, a tiefling doesn't go from deep red skin to pale pink skin if they don't get enough sunlight... lol, its because they have infernal mutations!
That's how it is in my campaign universe, ever since 1st Ed. That's why Orcs, who can breed with just about any human, demi-human, and humanoid cannot do so with Elves.
@@That80sGuy1972 unless they're an unfortunate prisoner, almost no half-orcs. only Orcs make for proper breeding, as Gruumsh decreed all non orc are for fighting and feeding
@@jaredbledsoe-sams1361 In all of my campaigns, I have all forms of Orc "purists" that defy their innate nature to crossbreed (not to crossbreed specifically but to indiscriminately breed) which is why their race still exists. I base those on racists of all types, so Gruumsh would fit perfectly. In my campaigns, they are also the ancestors of all goblinoids. The various gods have different origin stories and pretty much waged war against the guys who were my universe's more scientific beings, wiping most of them out so their own narratives would become truth (in AD&D, actual reality gives way to dominant religions).
Excellent work AJ! Though quite a lot of it sounds really unlikely. Imagine this: cute little Demonlord Lolth, who had just been beaten within an inch of her life by Corellon, arrives in the Demonweb Pits and immediately gets offered equal partnership by the Greater God Ghaunadaur. Which she completely refutes, to then proceed and utterly defeat this GREATER GOD in his own domain ,despite being half dead and not possessing any divinity herself. Oo Call me crazy, but somehow I doubt this story. I think it was more like this: half-dead Lolth arrives in the abyss and gets told by Ghaunadaur that she is going to be his slave until he loses interest and devours her. And then something happened.Maybe Tharizdun withdrew his favour, or maybe the Celestials concluded some great campaign to reduce Tharizdun's influence on the universe. As a result Ghaunadaur went mad and lost most of his divinity, while Lolth seized the opportunity to take control of the Demonweb Pits. But I have another question that is really bugging me. Why are the Dark Seldarine such a bunch of misandrists? Or more broadly: why do they care so much about gender? None of the other pantheons give a crap about the gender of their followers.
@@AJPickett Thanks a lot for the answer! I'm definitely going to read up on Corellon. I'm guessing that you are also going to release a video on Eilistraee. When you do the research, could you look for connections to Drizzt? I understand that R.A.Salvatore doesn't like Eilistraee and tries to avoid her in his work as much as he can, but maybe you can find something. It has become really ridiculous at this point. Drizzt has accomplished more for the Dark Maidens course than anybody else period. And with Qilué Veladorn dead, he should be the new chosen. But no, Bob doesn't like nekkid darkelf waifus >
@@Lolgram Bob Salvatore is an excellent person and an accomplished writer. He has taken a few liberties, lore wise... Regis and the figurine of wondrous power being one that caused me to WTF the most...
@@AJPickett Oh I'm sorry, I didn't mean to question Bob Salvatore's character. I'm just frustrated with this giant hole in the narrative. And I love both of these characters, it would be so awesome to see Drizzt and Eilistraee finally interact. The figurine was probably just a plot-device. It is the way of fictional writing that important characters get plot-armor to further the progression of the story. And if you just read the novels and don't play yourself, you wouldn't even notice how unlikely this figurine is.
I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't include THE most important bit of Lolth lore and history (or at least a picture) and that is her appearance in the 1980's Dungeons & Dragons cartoon tv series. Lol.
Ghaunadaur must have been so mad. 😡 LOL Are there any books that talk about the sentient oozes? That is new information for me, and I'm always looking for lore books 📚 to absorb.
I know this probably pretty random but is viconia devir(from baldur's gate series) related to the devirs that drizzt do'urden's family almost completely wiped out on the day he was born?
Awesome as ever! You know, I always wonder what humans were doing during this entire time. Since most of the history is coming from the heavily revised libraries of Evermeet and the fact that this was long ago even for elves, humans don't seem to factor into this age of history much. If we look to real world history, slavery is the almost guaranteed result of an advanced civilization meeting a primitive one.
Oh humans were most certainly there, many of them were enslaved by the dragons during the time the dark elves and green elves had their 1900 years of relative peace and quiet, humans have been on Toril as long as the elves, and the orcs, the dwarves are relative newcomers to the surface of the planet, we can't say for sure how long they were underground before they came up for a look around.
@@AJPickett Haven't humans predated elves on Toril, as a progenitor race? The elves seem to have showed up on Toril from Arvandor and claimed the place as their own, then vastly changed it with their powerful magic - rude! I guess it depends on whether "fae" as a progenitor race included elves?
@@monsieurdorgat6864 It did not include elves, the Eladrin, Sylvans and LeShay are whom they are talking about. Those were the beings who saw the destruction caused by dragons and giants and decided to bring elves over from not just the feywild, but from other worlds as well, not directly from Arvandor.
@@AJPickett So the progenitor fey transplanted elves from tons of other places onto Toril, because only the elves could mess up dragons and giants? Was that so the fey had more people "on their team" or are elves canonically more powerful than those other fey? The elves certainly made far greater and longer-lasting changes to Toril than the progenitor fey seemed to.
@@monsieurdorgat6864 Elves are from the blood of Corellon, so when they kick their vocal cords into high gear and gather in a group, playing Jenga with the building blocks of reality, they can literally fuck up a planet. The Fey have access to divination magic, so, they probably knew exactly what the elves were capable of. (very good question btw!)
So, Jergal is one of *those* things? Just curious if/when you're making a video about Jergal as the story of him and the ascension of the Dead Three is one of my favorite bits of D&D mythology.
I’d actually like to she Lolth get soundly defeated again, she has essentially been a major DND threat for so long it would be nice to see the status quo get shaken up a bit. Afterwards we can see her start to drag herself back up. Being that always win are boring.
This is such an entertaining treatment of drow history. Who hasn't Lolth double-crossed? I actually feel bad for all the intelligent slimes. I'm sure there were a few less evil ones that were violently robbed of their lucidity when Ghaunadaur went insane with frothing rage (at a perfectly reasonable alliance it sounds like). Someone should write an adventure module that features Lolth and Fraz-Urb'luu. Each one trying to double and triple-cross the other and the adventures trying to play them off of each other too. Who knows, maybe they get along like white on rice. Thank you for another tickety-boo video AJ.
He and Lolth Could never get along like white on rice because abyssal lords HATE and are jealous of each other. It's their primary weakness and the only reason they haven't conquered the multiverse. Plus she's the quintessential feminist.😆
What would be the nature of the relationship between the Seldarine, when Araushnee was still a member, with the older? Archfey of the Feywild like Oberon and Titania?
They were allies. They fought to defend each other and co-operated to protect the woodland realms. The seldarine don't force the elves to only worship them. Some elves worshipped the Fey gods. Elves like the sylvan and DARK ELVES. Remember Erevan Ilsere is said to be the parent of a equine fey deity. Some seldarine have fey followers too( even though most Fey are to free spirited and independent for formal religious practices.
@@llewelynshingler2173 In darkness usually. There must be many examples of oozes and slimes that have been subjected to experimentation and ended up being awakened, and as far as I know, many species of ooze and slime don't die of old age...
@@AJPickett Now you mention it, the Oblex come to mind. Could Gaunadaur be behind them rather than Juiblex? As an aside, why do Oozes, sentient or otherwise, like the dark?
Pettyblue24 I am a mere Male but all hail the SPIDER QUEEN! And thank u narrator for this fascinating lore of Lolth.if only R.A.Salvatore and the higher ups a wizards of the coast were listening😔
Imagine my surprise. Watches video on Drow. Incidentally learns Lolth is effectively the reason why there are no sentient slimes in D&D (Other than the very recent one). WELP. Guess all my future characters have a new enemy. Broke: Play a homebrew slime race. Woke: Play the best friend of the previous character, out for revenge.
great vid! 👍👏😁 but have totally unrelated question - recently enjoyed vids about negative & positive energy planes, you say positive is where LIFE COMES FROM & of course negative is where life has faded away, so - could the multiverse be torus (donut) shaped? life eminating from "the hole" part, (positive plane) spreading & thinning to the outer edge, (negative plane) which eventually comes around again to re-coallesse in & "spark" again from the positive energy plane in a continuous recycling of life energy? what you think, or am I being TOO deeply nerdy!?!?! 🙄🤪🤯
I'd say that generally, things in Dungeons and Dragons have an animist lean to them, so, if there is some way a cosmic force or process could be governed by some form of intelligence, it is. So that being the premise, the question becomes, why would something create universes that are doughnut-shaped, and are there universes that are not doughnut-shaped, and how would it be possible to exploit the differences?
@@AJPickett interesting viewpoint & makes a lot of sense within the game perspective, always some kind of "higher power" removed from & above lesser beings, even the most powerful of the gods, really it's the kind of subject which as a whole could be philosophically debated until the end of time,... or the beginning!!! 🤯 Thanks for getting back to me with your insight! 😁👍 (& for not having me hauled off to Spellhold!!! 😮 ) 🌟💖👍💖👍💖🌟
For me the story of Lolth proves something beyond all doubt. There is no such thing as good elves. Just elves that have decided to not be complete arseholes in their current life.
For me Lolth is a huggeeeee beech , first she try to kill her husband just because she is power hungry, second she use her own daughter as a scapegoat, three get mad because her plan failed and so want vengeance but at first already something bad so her vengeance is kinda faulted . Serisouly someoen should one day try to do a campaing where the goal is to destroy her, gathering soem other gods ect . .
Actually what I am watching these videos for… Kinda setting up for a revolution against Lolth and possibly flipping the Drow civilization to the light. 😅
Try seeing it from Lolth's perspective. She wished to be something other than a servant. For all of the vaulted virtues of pretty boy elf god Lolth had his number. She was a possession to him, not a partner. A treasured possession but still just a pretty bauble. She made the choice to be so evil she had to be exiled but pretty boy indeed had a significant hand in turning Lolth against him. He deserved it. And this is the guy who is supposed to the moral center of elvendom. A dude whom is so self obsessed he didn't see his own wickedness and still doesn't. Maybe less he realize Lolth really is just his sins come to haunt him.
I don't know, the LeShay have been around a lot longer than the drow, the elves, even the Seldarine, so, I'd be more interested in what the LeShay think of the Seldarine, to be honest.
The leshay are followers of Corellon. They are old and stuck in their ways. She wouldn't be able to convert them because she has nothing to offer that they don't already possess the might and magic to get on their own. That's like asking what a dragon thinks of kurtalmak the god of Kobolds. 😆
Lolth has been with us as a major villain since First Edition. Many other Gods and Monsters have come and gone, but She has endured.
And she's been consistently robbed of her due. She could lay claim to nearly 80% of drow worship,100% of chitin worship,100% of intelligent arachnid worship,and at least half of Aerena worship,but still gets ranked as a lesser or intermediate goddess. The drow sub-race out numbers the other Elven sub races on toril,and yet Lolth is still ranked no higher than a typical member of the seldarine that only has one sub-race of dwindling eladrin on worshipping them on that same world. One cant say her worshippers lack fervor, and she don't have the numbers. For crying out loud one city of her drow worshippers has a population of 100,000 by itself. Not to mention the broods and egg clutches her spider-kin birth. A deity only needs one million worshippers to gain greater god status. She should have had that amount way before the time of troubles. She shouldnt have needed to go silent to level up...unless that's the process she had to use to convert their worship energies into her level-up..oh wow..and AO stole it from her..again. obviously if she's had a high number of worshippers for millennia then this probably wasn't her first level up event. Just saying...none of the drow history has ever spoken of her becoming...silent before.
Don’t forget Blibdoolpoolp
@@erikmartin4996 I noticed that Blib is being pushed aside.
@@skankhunt4588 in 5E?
My wife: Why are you watching videos? You have to get ready for work.
Me: Work is temporary, D&D is eternal.
This is The Way
Adventurer: why did you summon those demons?
Cultist: I just did it for the Lolth
I remember there was a thread on the D&D forum a LONG while back that theorized about the "Gods Of The Mirrorverse." In the Mirrorverse I can see Lolth as the Spymistress Goddess of the Drow trying to keep the multiverse free from the iron fist of
Corellon Larethian, leader of the Elvish Reich. The forum already had given some level of fleshing out to some other Gods such as "Gruumsh Three Eye" who tricked Corellon into a blow that opened his third eye, & granting him enlightenment. I can see Mirrorverse Lolth feeding Gruumsh information from her multplanar web of spies & informants. As a Chaotic Good deity I envision she'd have a moving spider shaped palace that drifted between The Beastlands, Arborea, Ysgard, & even sometimes as far as Limbo.
Brilliant, I love "What If" stuff like that.
I thought that thread was long gone? did it survive after all?
Man, this lore is so deep, I feel like I should be wearing a life vest. I'm consistently impressed by your research skills, AJ. 👍
Hope that slime god gets his revenge at some point. Seems like he got a rough shake.
that was really nasty.
@Lamodrick Foster Mostly thought that destroying the intellect of his worshippers and children was the *truly* horrible bit.
@Lamodrick Foster Which is why she is the more dangerous of the two.
5:23 The part where Lolth not only refuses Ghaunadaur’s offer but absolutely destroys him will never stop being funny to me. Your narration of the events only makes it even more funny 🤣
Ah, Lolth. Last time, she was a treacherous elven goddess. Now, she is a demonic spider Lady. Can't wait to see her rise back to a demonic goddess and near constant source of strife, deception, infighting, self-destruction, and mutation for her chosen people.
ghaunadaur be like: "the worst she can say is no."
Lolth is such an amazing goddess, I really enjoyed the R.A Salvatore novels where she becomes the spider queen.
I always see her as very similar to Queen Tahkisis from Dragonlance bar the obvious links to tiamat, of course
Lolth has lol in her name for a reason. She's a god tier troll and everyone keeps feeding her.
Lolth seems like a neat lady 🕷️🕸️
I've always been so fascinated by the drow and their gods .
Just finished both parts of your treatise on Lolth and I think it's the deepest, most informative I've seen. Bravo Sir.
Thank you very much!
6:00 BRO WHAT
I spent an entire year researching to find out what the hell Ghaunadaur was.
It looks like now that I've finally played him in front of my party, I now have an entire year of learning *who* Ghaunadaur is.
Ghaaa.. this sentance is so good I am just glad that I'm hearing it now, and ruined that I did not hear it earlier.
I knew ALLLLL of this lore you've been saying recently in terms of points and lines and the surprises were in the manner of connection between things, and reasonings. The reasonings are the good sh**.
BUT THE LEGIT REASON WHY OOZES HAVE BAD INT AS BEING A HIGHLY RELATABLE FLAW INSTILLED UPON AN OTHERWISE ORDINARY RACE EN MASSE AND bruhh
So to access an entire greater god source of divine power, you have to just restore or otherwise empower their ooze followers.
Juiblex's plans just keep getting more terrifying. Ghaunadaur doesn't even act in its own best interests. So many parts, pieces, and portfolios left out in the lore completely up for grabs.
Yo aj, imagine somehow that character (from that one book on the promenade of eilistraee in combat with the chasm of Ghaunadaur beneath Waterdeep where Ghaunadaur's avatar was held in this drow's body who then got lost in a maze) out of their maze and have that divine energy snatched up by an already similarly powered up Juiblex. Imagine they simultaneously use their madness over oozes in Faerun in some ritual to direct and control the madness of the oozes in a way to kind of strong-arm the followers of ghaunadaur into having some dark resemblance to their ancient prayers, and begin accessing the lost greater god power of Ghaunadaur- routing it into Juiblex as the wielder of the most nearby pieces of Ghaunadaur's divine essence.
In 1487, pre Ao's return to prominence in Toril.
You just made my vague late-game threats *so much more real*.
@@PattPlays Picture a scenario where Tharizdun escapes his dream prison and the prime material plane is alerted by the thundering voice of Tharizdun speaking directly through every burping, bubbling and splattering ooze which boil up to the surface of the worlds of the prime material plane, as the Beholders suddenly gain divine power, the Astral Dreadnoughts eat every portal in the astral plane, cutting off access between the gods and their mortal worshippers, Obox-ob, Juiblex and Ghaunadaur merge back together and rejoin with the mind and will of Tharizdun, and the barriers between planes of existence begin to shatter, turning the prime material plane into a living nightmare, more like the Far Realm, except magic, psionics and divine power no longer function, the undead simply explode and all living beings are reduced to crawling, mewling animals, dominated by the great eye of Tharizdun, as he rips reality apart, his every thought manifesting temporary realities and in the voids of chaos, great beings of the primal multiverse, finally free of the hated stability and the suppression of the gods, swim freely and consume chunks of what was, as what will be begins to form around them.
That’s metal.
Damn, Lloth roasted Ghaunadaur to the Abyss and back lol. Zero chill.
I have an Eladrin rogue who has taken up the mission of inviting all servants of Eillestrae to come live in the Feywild. He explained to them that this isn’t pity but justice. The Feywilde is their home by right.
Frell yes, this is the way to start a sick day!
Get well soon Nyar!
@@AJPickett Thanks AJ, much appreciated :)
If Ghaunadaur ever claims down and thinks about it all. Lolth is in for all the trouble she's never wanted.
I've been hammering away at the cosmology of my dnd setting, and after a lot of consideration, you've convinced to include lolth. I wanted to see if I could come up with better stuff than fg, but I think certain characters are too compelling to leave out, llolth being one of them.
Now THIS is how you tell a God's history! Great as always AJ. Please do a Ghaunadaur episode 🙏. The dude/thing from before time need more attention
3:40
Because of the recent strange dreams my Duergar character has been having, any time he see's a spell weaver, even if it's an image he becomes absolutely terrified. And he doesn't even know why because he can't puzzle out what the dreams actually pertain to. He just knows the fear is very, very real, and that something needs to be done, he just doesn't know what.
Oh... That's not going to end well for him.
Ah... I was just about to leave RUclips for the night until I got an AJ Pickett notice. I had to click. No regrets.
And DANG... Lolth is a clever one. So, demon and lesser goddess. For all she does, I'd expect her to be near greater goddess but I digress. She'd probably have to let go of her demon status to climb that ladder.
Indeed she does.
Lolth is misunderstood. She's a creator god, a builder, a shaper. Patient, thoughtful, dedicated to her people.
**peers at you with narrow eyes**
That seems like something a Drow would say.
**scratches chin**
@Lamodrick Foster So you're saying a basket, a shirt, a towel, a painting, a sculptor are all corruptions
@@Thkaal lolth doesn't make any of those things. She doesn't even create her own web dresses. Her spiders do it. She hasn't been able to weave anything symmetric since her banishment. I'm sure that is part of her reason for hating Correllon considering the fact that before her fall,she was the Elven goddess of artisans, inventors, and wove the destiny and fate the mortal elves at one time. Besides..the power of creation is one of the things that sats greater gods above the rest. Sure after her silence she could do it. That's how she created her abyssal widows from our legend and gave them the strength of a solar or demi-God. Remember she doesn't even create her yochlols from scratch. She warps and mutates succubi with a vat of raw chaos" oose" and a a butt-load of pain to create them.
@@skankhunt4588 Shun the heretic!
@@Thkaal [gasps and lowers head in shame] I am no heretic. Just...misinformed. 😔
Long time viewer, always loved your content, you pulled me through hard days, lots of love
*hugs*
This actually makes for a great prologue for the War of the Spider Queen hexalogy! When I was on the book involving the drow queen of the dead, I had no idea the defeated lord they were talking bout was Orcus until now. Won’t spoil the method she used to defeat him tho... anyway this was just as phenomenal as the first! Great job...for a mere male...
Obviously the method didn't stick. Orcus literally rose from the dead and murdered a GREATER GOD before deciding it was the to go home a reclaim thanstos THE BELLY OF DEATH from her. He sent her running back to the DemonWebs pits of lolth.
@@skankhunt4588 the event I’m talking about was occurred in The Lady Penitent trilogy. She entered into the battle, represented by a sava game, going on between Lolth and Ellistraee antagonistic to both. She also, if I’m recalling it properly, dies as a result of the conflict. Don’t want to spoil the plot too much incase anyone looking at this decides to read it. All the protagonists are drow lol.
@@epiccthulu ah..you speak of THOSE events. Now I understand. Thank you for the clarification.
@@skankhunt4588 thank you for the polite exchanging of comments :)
Awesome! Thanks so much, AJ!!!!
dont play the games, but i like the novels. and i just loved the war of the spider queen.
Awesome video to end my overnight shift with. Thank you
Rest easy champion :)
Wooooo! More Spooky Spider Lady!!!
I was looking for part 3 has it been posted yet. Love the first 2 parts its giving me ideas for running a couple of games for my nieces and nephew they love DnD. They found my old sets from the 80s and early 90s and asked me what they where and if I would teach them to play and its been a god send during the pandemic. Whole family is getting into it. DnD is timeless.
Part Three (The Goddess Lolth: Lolth part 3) is coming soon.
@@AJPickett Thank you sir.
Alll the lore! Elves, drow and gods; sign me up!
I swear I need to find every scrap of source material for this info and compile it into a detailed, annotated timeline and notating what is Greyhawk from Faerun because Araushnee/Lolth is so fucking fascinating but what happened and when is a little confusing even with this incredibly detailed series of yours.
Yay! More Lolth! Thx, Aj! 👍🤙🤘😁
Yes part 2 thank you
Thank you so much for doing what you do.
part two and one are in reverse order in the playlist as of 11/19
That was amazing. I have recently read through Demihuman Deities again, but this is so much better! May I ask where you found the information? I love anything fiend related -- typically being "Team 'loth", but these tanar'ric shenanigans sound fascinating. This is the first time I am actually interested in a topic related to elves ;)
Very much looking forward to the third part of this epic saga.
Oh I am pulling every resource there is to get as much info as I can, even reaching out to the original authors (within reason, they did write this stuff twenty years ago).
I am continuing to suggest making classes videos on bards and monk.
Noted
@@AJPickett thank you.
This series so far has produced the most personal note taking of any set of videos. Thank you Professor!
Where can we find out more about the first Drow?
You mean the goddess Kiaransalee or the first dark elven offspring of the matron mothers who mated with the demon Wendonai?
There's more than one origin for them. In Evermeet, there are dark elves on Faerun before the descent-Ka'Narlist, Ghaunadaur's High Priest in the city of Atornash was one in that time period and thee are described with the typical drow features we are familiar with. Ebony skin, white hair, red eyes. In that version, there really wasn't any change in their physical appearance when they were banished to the underdark and named Drow. In another version, Dark Elves didn't have the white hair and were brown-skinned like the Green Elves until they were banished in the Crown Wars and were magically transformed as part of a curse. I think in the most recent 5e version the mortal elves that sided with Lolth when she betrayed Corellon as a goddes were transformed into drow.
In all versions, there were two Dark Elven civilizations, IIRC one in West Faerun (Miyeritar), and One in the South(Ilythiir). Miyeritar got smashed in the Crown Wars so most Drow have stronger ancestral ties to the later than the former. After the descent, the Drow invaded the Dwarven Homeland in what is now the Great Rift and conquered in, forming the first (and only real) Drow Empire....which was destroyed by magical mishap, leaving only a few scattered outposts from the great empire. Menzoberranzean and its sister city Ched Nassad were actually formed by a band of refugees who had been rendered wandering nomads from this disaster.
Drow culture is so nicely done, thanks for the video AJ, instant like 🌚.
Weaving spiders come not here~bohemian grove
In my Dragon-hammer, I have it so in the Verden-sphere, elves and Orcs we once one race that devolved into 2 separate races. How would that work in regards to aspects and Corellon and gruumsh
They would be estranged brothers. The first elves of Faerun (the Green elves) included winged elves, elves that could turn into wolves and aquatic elves, so, Gruumsh could be the more animalistic, predatory aspect of nature and the first orcs would have been like elven shifters that could take on werecreature-like forms... the Drow have an ancient taint of demon within them, which is why they now have pitch black skin and red or violet eyes, white hair and some innate magical powers, the original dark elves had dark brown skin, black hair and light colored eyes that was quite strikingly attractive, so, it explains why the Drow skin never became pale from living underground, its like, a tiefling doesn't go from deep red skin to pale pink skin if they don't get enough sunlight... lol, its because they have infernal mutations!
@@AJPickett that's what I was going for. Elves are the beauty of nature and Orcs are its savagery
That's how it is in my campaign universe, ever since 1st Ed. That's why Orcs, who can breed with just about any human, demi-human, and humanoid cannot do so with Elves.
@@That80sGuy1972 unless they're an unfortunate prisoner, almost no half-orcs. only Orcs make for proper breeding, as Gruumsh decreed all non orc are for fighting and feeding
@@jaredbledsoe-sams1361 In all of my campaigns, I have all forms of Orc "purists" that defy their innate nature to crossbreed (not to crossbreed specifically but to indiscriminately breed) which is why their race still exists. I base those on racists of all types, so Gruumsh would fit perfectly. In my campaigns, they are also the ancestors of all goblinoids. The various gods have different origin stories and pretty much waged war against the guys who were my universe's more scientific beings, wiping most of them out so their own narratives would become truth (in AD&D, actual reality gives way to dominant religions).
Oooh a part 3? Niiice so much more for my upcoming campaign !
Thank you AJ sir!
in the words of count dukoo the wise, "i've been looking forward to this"
Excellent work AJ!
Though quite a lot of it sounds really unlikely.
Imagine this: cute little Demonlord Lolth, who had just been beaten within an inch of her life by Corellon, arrives in the Demonweb Pits and immediately gets offered equal partnership by the Greater God Ghaunadaur.
Which she completely refutes, to then proceed and utterly defeat this GREATER GOD in his own domain ,despite being half dead and not possessing any divinity herself. Oo
Call me crazy, but somehow I doubt this story.
I think it was more like this: half-dead Lolth arrives in the abyss and gets told by Ghaunadaur that she is going to be his slave until he loses interest and devours her.
And then something happened.Maybe Tharizdun withdrew his favour, or maybe the Celestials concluded some great campaign to reduce Tharizdun's influence on the universe.
As a result Ghaunadaur went mad and lost most of his divinity, while Lolth seized the opportunity to take control of the Demonweb Pits.
But I have another question that is really bugging me.
Why are the Dark Seldarine such a bunch of misandrists? Or more broadly: why do they care so much about gender?
None of the other pantheons give a crap about the gender of their followers.
Because Lolth?
Because Corellon chose to be male.
@@AJPickett Thanks a lot for the answer! I'm definitely going to read up on Corellon.
I'm guessing that you are also going to release a video on Eilistraee. When you do the research, could you look for connections to Drizzt? I understand that R.A.Salvatore doesn't like Eilistraee and tries to avoid her in his work as much as he can, but maybe you can find something.
It has become really ridiculous at this point. Drizzt has accomplished more for the Dark Maidens course than anybody else period. And with Qilué Veladorn dead, he should be the new chosen. But no, Bob doesn't like nekkid darkelf waifus >
@@Lolgram Bob Salvatore is an excellent person and an accomplished writer. He has taken a few liberties, lore wise... Regis and the figurine of wondrous power being one that caused me to WTF the most...
@@AJPickett Oh I'm sorry, I didn't mean to question Bob Salvatore's character. I'm just frustrated with this giant hole in the narrative. And I love both of these characters, it would be so awesome to see Drizzt and Eilistraee finally interact.
The figurine was probably just a plot-device. It is the way of fictional writing that important characters get plot-armor to further the progression of the story.
And if you just read the novels and don't play yourself, you wouldn't even notice how unlikely this figurine is.
Cheers!! This is exactly what I needed to put my brain elsewhere whilst I muscle memory this spreadsheet (not a euphemism)....
Ghaunadaur is a deity of slimes and oozes? It makes me wonder what link he may have with Juiblex.
They were both aspects of a greater god who got banished to a prison dimension (Tharizdun)
6:13 Dang! If that's not worthy of evil, cackling laughter...
I hadn't heard this before, thanks.
AJ, any chance you can do a video on snake gods of the Yuan Ti
Hmmm, yes indeed.
I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't include THE most important bit of Lolth lore and history (or at least a picture) and that is her appearance in the 1980's Dungeons & Dragons cartoon tv series. Lol.
How DARE you. lol
I remember that episode!
Love you man. Looking forward to part 3 whenever you’re good and ready =D
Part three pretty please 🥺
Fantastic thank you, turning my morning around one video at a time 😁
Nice video AJ!
Dear AJ thank you very much for doing this series, huge fan of the dark elves and any sort of spidery creepy monster.
Ah good, something to get me through the end of my shift!
Can this be a movie? My God it's intense.
I'm going to have to re watch this a few times. Just so I can fully grasp the secrets I have heard.
Ghaunadaur must have been so mad. 😡 LOL Are there any books that talk about the sentient oozes? That is new information for me, and I'm always looking for lore books 📚 to absorb.
Sentient oozes don't get much of a mention. Shape shifters and sapient mimics are certainly a thing though.
Do you have a video specifically on Ghaunadaur planned? Absolutely looking forward to learning more about them.
Good video AJ
Another great Lolth video! Can't wait for the next!
Excellent video as always aj! Also do we know what the intelligent ozz civilizations were like? And did any escape the fate of their kin?
Well, there is the Oblex, there are obscure ooze monters in various manuals.. most likely something in Spelljammer.
What is the interaction between Ghaunadaur and Juiblex? It seems like they both have pretty much complete control over all oozes.
They are (currently independent) aspects of a greater god, Tharizdun (at least, as far as I can tell).
@@AJPickett interesting, I was planning to have Tharizdun play a ‘central’ role in the theology of my campaign and this would fit nicely with it.
Aragog: "I'd hit that".
Ungoliant: ""Yeah, i must be on the turn because i'd eat that in a hot minute".
I know this probably pretty random but is viconia devir(from baldur's gate series) related to the devirs that drizzt do'urden's family almost completely wiped out on the day he was born?
Yes. Same House that the Do'Urden's wiped out.
Thanx for the vid boss. Been waiting for this one.
Awesome as ever! You know, I always wonder what humans were doing during this entire time. Since most of the history is coming from the heavily revised libraries of Evermeet and the fact that this was long ago even for elves, humans don't seem to factor into this age of history much. If we look to real world history, slavery is the almost guaranteed result of an advanced civilization meeting a primitive one.
Oh humans were most certainly there, many of them were enslaved by the dragons during the time the dark elves and green elves had their 1900 years of relative peace and quiet, humans have been on Toril as long as the elves, and the orcs, the dwarves are relative newcomers to the surface of the planet, we can't say for sure how long they were underground before they came up for a look around.
@@AJPickett Haven't humans predated elves on Toril, as a progenitor race? The elves seem to have showed up on Toril from Arvandor and claimed the place as their own, then vastly changed it with their powerful magic - rude!
I guess it depends on whether "fae" as a progenitor race included elves?
@@monsieurdorgat6864 It did not include elves, the Eladrin, Sylvans and LeShay are whom they are talking about. Those were the beings who saw the destruction caused by dragons and giants and decided to bring elves over from not just the feywild, but from other worlds as well, not directly from Arvandor.
@@AJPickett So the progenitor fey transplanted elves from tons of other places onto Toril, because only the elves could mess up dragons and giants? Was that so the fey had more people "on their team" or are elves canonically more powerful than those other fey? The elves certainly made far greater and longer-lasting changes to Toril than the progenitor fey seemed to.
@@monsieurdorgat6864 Elves are from the blood of Corellon, so when they kick their vocal cords into high gear and gather in a group, playing Jenga with the building blocks of reality, they can literally fuck up a planet. The Fey have access to divination magic, so, they probably knew exactly what the elves were capable of. (very good question btw!)
So, Jergal is one of *those* things? Just curious if/when you're making a video about Jergal as the story of him and the ascension of the Dead Three is one of my favorite bits of D&D mythology.
I’d actually like to she Lolth get soundly defeated again, she has essentially been a major DND threat for so long it would be nice to see the status quo get shaken up a bit. Afterwards we can see her start to drag herself back up. Being that always win are boring.
Her history shows that is exactly what keeps happening to her.where have you been?😆
This should totes be included in the Lords of Ruin playlist. :3
Yes it should
This is such an entertaining treatment of drow history. Who hasn't Lolth double-crossed? I actually feel bad for all the intelligent slimes. I'm sure there were a few less evil ones that were violently robbed of their lucidity when Ghaunadaur went insane with frothing rage (at a perfectly reasonable alliance it sounds like). Someone should write an adventure module that features Lolth and Fraz-Urb'luu. Each one trying to double and triple-cross the other and the adventures trying to play them off of each other too. Who knows, maybe they get along like white on rice.
Thank you for another tickety-boo video AJ.
He and Lolth Could never get along like white on rice because abyssal lords HATE and are jealous of each other. It's their primary weakness and the only reason they haven't conquered the multiverse. Plus she's the quintessential feminist.😆
Curse my foolishness, I thought this would be a two-parter.
Sweet intro!
I wanna know more about Ghaunadaur 🤘🏻
What would be the nature of the relationship between the Seldarine, when Araushnee was still a member, with the older? Archfey of the Feywild like Oberon and Titania?
Unknown
They were allies. They fought to defend each other and co-operated to protect the woodland realms. The seldarine don't force the elves to only worship them. Some elves worshipped the Fey gods. Elves like the sylvan and DARK ELVES. Remember Erevan Ilsere is said to be the parent of a equine fey deity. Some seldarine have fey followers too( even though most Fey are to free spirited and independent for formal religious practices.
Omg thank you AJ
Great video mate
Do any intelligent oozes exist in the Material Planes?
Yes.
@@AJPickett Where do they live?
@@llewelynshingler2173 In darkness usually. There must be many examples of oozes and slimes that have been subjected to experimentation and ended up being awakened, and as far as I know, many species of ooze and slime don't die of old age...
@@AJPickett Now you mention it, the Oblex come to mind. Could Gaunadaur be behind them rather than Juiblex? As an aside, why do Oozes, sentient or otherwise, like the dark?
@@llewelynshingler2173 Maybe the sun's heat makes them dehydrate?
Comment for the algorithm. Enjoyable as always😀🍿
the only thing i got from this is correlion is just built different
Another great informative video, thanks.
Pettyblue24
I am a mere Male but all hail the SPIDER QUEEN! And thank u narrator for this fascinating lore of Lolth.if only R.A.Salvatore and the higher ups a wizards of the coast were listening😔
Yeah,,stopped playing after 2nd edition,,planescape,,dark sun was my last,,entirely to much confusion between races,,classes,,give me 1st edition..
Imagine my surprise. Watches video on Drow. Incidentally learns Lolth is effectively the reason why there are no sentient slimes in D&D (Other than the very recent one). WELP. Guess all my future characters have a new enemy.
Broke: Play a homebrew slime race.
Woke: Play the best friend of the previous character, out for revenge.
And now… I wait for part 3.
Nice to include the Slaine art!
Where can you read more on the necromancer drow queen ?
Kiaransalee forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kiaransalee
@@AJPickett Thank you
Such great detail.
great vid! 👍👏😁
but have totally unrelated question -
recently enjoyed vids about
negative & positive energy
planes, you say positive is
where LIFE COMES FROM &
of course negative is where
life has faded away, so -
could the multiverse be
torus (donut) shaped?
life eminating from "the
hole" part, (positive plane)
spreading & thinning to
the outer edge, (negative
plane) which eventually
comes around again to
re-coallesse in & "spark"
again from the positive
energy plane in a continuous
recycling of life energy?
what you think, or am I being
TOO deeply nerdy!?!?! 🙄🤪🤯
I'd say that generally, things in Dungeons and Dragons have an animist lean to them, so, if there is some way a cosmic force or process could be governed by some form of intelligence, it is. So that being the premise, the question becomes, why would something create universes that are doughnut-shaped, and are there universes that are not doughnut-shaped, and how would it be possible to exploit the differences?
@@AJPickett interesting viewpoint & makes a lot
of sense within the game
perspective, always some
kind of "higher power"
removed from & above
lesser beings, even the
most powerful of the gods,
really it's the kind of subject
which as a whole could be
philosophically debated
until the end of time,...
or the beginning!!! 🤯
Thanks for getting back to
me with your insight! 😁👍
(& for not having me hauled
off to Spellhold!!! 😮 )
🌟💖👍💖👍💖🌟
@@efferzzreffe4903 are these poems
@@eosdawn6399 nahh, I'm just
more long-winded than a
gnome from Krynn! 😁
May all your dice rolls be
favourable! 💖👍💖
Cant wait for the next one =]
For me the story of Lolth proves something beyond all doubt. There is no such thing as good elves. Just elves that have decided to not be complete arseholes in their current life.
Try Dark Sun or Spelljammer. Elves are amazingly despicable in both of those.
Part three?
This video is so awesome!!!
For me Lolth is a huggeeeee beech , first she try to kill her husband just because she is power hungry, second she use her own daughter as a scapegoat, three get mad because her plan failed and so want vengeance but at first already something bad so her vengeance is kinda faulted .
Serisouly someoen should one day try to do a campaing where the goal is to destroy her, gathering soem other gods ect . .
Lolth has probably been murdered by adventurers more than any other demon goddess in D&D history :)
Actually what I am watching these videos for… Kinda setting up for a revolution against Lolth and possibly flipping the Drow civilization to the light. 😅
Been done in a few early books. An likely many home brews.
Try seeing it from Lolth's perspective. She wished to be something other than a servant. For all of the vaulted virtues of pretty boy elf god Lolth had his number. She was a possession to him, not a partner. A treasured possession but still just a pretty bauble. She made the choice to be so evil she had to be exiled but pretty boy indeed had a significant hand in turning Lolth against him. He deserved it. And this is the guy who is supposed to the moral center of elvendom. A dude whom is so self obsessed he didn't see his own wickedness and still doesn't. Maybe less he realize Lolth really is just his sins come to haunt him.
Love these!!!
I wonder if Tiamat and Lolth have had conflicts and who is the more dangerous 🤔
Don't bring a dragon to a cat fight.
I would say...in a straight up fight, Tiamat is the clear favorite to win. But with Lolth it would never be a straight up fight, so who knows.
Do you think lolth has any interest in the leshay?
I too would like to hear thoughts
I don't know, the LeShay have been around a lot longer than the drow, the elves, even the Seldarine, so, I'd be more interested in what the LeShay think of the Seldarine, to be honest.
The leshay are followers of Corellon. They are old and stuck in their ways. She wouldn't be able to convert them because she has nothing to offer that they don't already possess the might and magic to get on their own. That's like asking what a dragon thinks of kurtalmak the god of Kobolds. 😆