You can observe the same effect by dropping two ice cream sticks or plastic drinking straws along side of each other in a tank of water. When you make some small waves in the water, the 2 are pushed together. The keyword here is _pushed._ The apparent sucking force is the relative absence of waves in the shielded water between the 2.
@@Walczyk It was a joke. Or he was making an analogy between the Casimir effect and the vacuum inside the bags that you can't fill because you can't get it open. But really, he was making a joke.
@@JordanLyon-w8ealways. You could probably write a doctoral thesis on how any comment in yt comments will have a dissenting opinion within 3 responses
@@drsjamesserra I think that going to the nano scale or lower the Casimir force becomes more and more powerful, causing anything mechanical to not work as intended. That said there might be applications where the force can help
I would like, but how i understand it the casimir effect should not happen. Hard to make a video explaining something nobody can and goes against our understanding of physics.
the vacuum between the plates contains waves of only a certain size, so that the distance between the plates is a multiple of the wavelength. therefore, there is less energy between the plates than outside. By the way, the magnitude of this effect was calculated thanks to the great Indian mathematician Ramanujan.
I've heard many physicists argue that over all, there is no negative energy involved at all, because the "negative" value between the plates is only negative *relative* to the vacuum energy outside the plates. Maybe there's a strong argument that disproves this point, but maybe this negative energy value effectively just means that there's less vacuum energy between the plates than outside, without ever violating the positive-energy condition. Idk.
I’m not gonna act like an expert but I’ve been looking into it recently and I think this is 100% the case. It’s “negative” in the sense it’s less than baseline, like if you removed some water from an ocean and kept that “lower” amount in some space, there will be more energy pushing in on that space than out because it’s trying to reach that homeostasis/equilibrium/baseline/whatever other word you can think of lol
Thinking you could you interpret is as a sort of filter for electromagnetic noise, resulting in a lower entropy than a purely random spectrum. Reducing the space between the plates reduces the area with that lower entropy. I wonder if there are other analogs. I'm guessing similar dynamics with brownian motion have been found.
@@thunder5048Define zero. What does no energy look like? How do you measure it? Are you sure you picked the right zero point? What mathematical models are you using to determine said zero point? Are they rigorous? That's what makes these weird edge cases hard. They're hard to define, and harder to get everyone to agree on a definition.
Hi Sabine! Break a piece of metal in a vacuum, then put the two pieces back together. They vacuum weld. If you get lucky in the shape of the break, the same van der Waals (atomic-scale charge nudging) and metallic bond (delocalized electrons) that hold the metal together internally reactivate across the narrow gap, pulling the pieces back together and making them a single piece again. Given that these are the same forces that make lumps of metal or other materials possible in the first place, there is no need to make the vacuum the final source of the snap-back energy. It is only a return of the energy stored by breaking the metal in the first place. The vacuum wave analysis idea was Bohr’s idea, not Casimir's. There was no need for it since the known internal bonding forces of the plates were already entirely sufficient to explain the attraction effect and, more importantly, to provide precise mathematical limits on how much energy could be stored. Bohr’s far more idealized approach - idealized because, e.g., there is no such thing as a “perfect” plane in grainy atomic matter - unfortunately had the opposite effect. Instead of fully quantifying the forces and energy release in terms of the well-known bonding forces inside material objects, Bohr added a redundant hypothetical energy originating from “the vacuum.” The fact that Bohr’s vacuum energy addition duplicates already well-known internal binding forces is a warning sign. Good old conservation of energy. It's still a great guiding principle! The interesting piece is what you described: Why is vacuum energy between the two nearby plates negative? Unfortunately, it's nothing more than a modeling error. Both metal pieces create Van der Waals and metallic bonding potentials close to their surfaces. If one incorrectly extends these near-surface bonding potentials to infinity, the energy potential between the surfaces necessarily goes negative when the bonds begin to reform. Sabine, I am sorry, and since I'm nothing but a poor, bewildered programmer, I don't expect you to believe me. Nonetheless, for the record, there is no wiggle room for negative gravitational energy in any of this. Bohr did not realize that material objects have bonding fields with positive energy extending slightly beyond their boundaries. By incorrectly presuming a near-field energized vacuum to be a ”pure” vacuum, Bohr wound up with nothing more than an illusion of negative energy vacuums. The actual energy drop when two plates approach closely is always smaller than the bonding potential of their near fields and thus always positive in terms of gravitational energy.
@@leachblah6313, heh, sorry, my self-mocking sometimes makes me come over as a bit more helpless than I am. While I am, indeed, a mere software programmer, I'm also one who speaks physics fluently and is very good at debugging. Physics could use a lot of debugging these days. I did a deep dive on Casimir a year or so ago, but I've been putting off a deeper dive into resolving Casimir's absurd transparency argument. This discussion forced me back into it, and I think I've got a pretty good resolution to the transparency argument. I'll mention my paper here when I feel comfortable with the analysis. I self-publish at Apabistia Press. My only reviewer is me, but since I think most of my ideas are incredibly stupid and don't mind being blunt in telling myself that, it works out.
@@TerryBollinger People with worse ideas than you have published before. The worst they got is just rejection and nothing more. Yours is a bit interesting. It definitely deserves some attention.
@@leachblah6313 thank you, that's much appreciated! I once checked briefly into one of the major journals but lost all interest when I discovered they charged a thousand dollars or so to make an article “open.” I had some interesting email exchanges with the editor. I think he finally realized how (for him, unexpectedly) offensive the pay-to-play meaning of “open” is to someone like me from the open-source software community. I once pretty much annihilated my long-term career to keep one company from destroying open-source software in the US, and I would do it over again in a split second. A friend of mine, whom I neglected to warn of how vicious and unexpected attacks can be on such issues, committed suicide. “Open” is a word that means a lot to me personally, and it's not easy for me to contemplate participating and what I consider a serious misuse of the concept. Also, I still firmly believe that predatory publishing is predatory publishing, even if it's Nature charging $10,000 for the prestige of publishing with them. Pay-to-play never, ever produces good science in the long term. I understand the financial pressures, and I cannot suggest a good alternative, but what is going on now is not the right path.
@@leachblah6313, again, thanks. If you have a specific collaboration suggestion, please let me know directly. I'm not hard to find. However, for my current goals, rapid self-publishing with little concern for audience width - I already have better depth than you might expect - works better than excruciating slow external review cycles. That's especially true since much of what I'm doing is better understood as solution-space scouting.
I suspect the plates simply can't be too light, as in that case they would no longer effectively shield the space between them (i.e. they would become too translucent). The overall effective energy would be the volume-weighted average of the 'negative' space in between the plates, and the plates themselves - and would always come out positive.
Yes indeed I had been thinking the same. However, while this might be the case in practice for sure, I do not see any way why this would have to be fundamentally so. If it was, that would also be interesting because it would require a so-far unknown relation between geometry and the constants of nature.
@@SabineHossenfelder: There is a case where I would argue that the mass of the plates becomes a trivial bit of minutea: when one of the plates is in orbit around the other. Is there a scale at which the Casimir effect disappears, or does it contribute in some (miniscule) fashion to dark energy?
On first hearing this I recall the very moment I was introduced to this. 2003 in New Scientist, a sunny day in Melbourn. I acepted the explination of twenty years ago. I am excited this is being thought through again. Thankyou.
What is the scientific consensus on using the negative energy in the Casimir effect as the negative energy required in the Alcubierre warp drive? A long time ago I was on a science message board and someone did the math (which was over my head...) and he determined that you'd have to have plates no larger than one atom thick. And then came along graphene and I've wondered ever since.
We just don't know enough about the vacuum/quantum gravity to definitively answer these questions yet. Unfortunately the Alcubierre drive isn't physically feasible as it stands at the moment.
It has nothing to do with actual energy being expended or created. It's still positive energy, just less of it between the plates than outside of it, due to the restriction of quantum states and their wavelengths in the spatial proximity of the plates. So for example, if the space between the plates is smaller than a given wavelength, then no wavelength of that type can exist or be created within it, so you end up with the absence of it, which is the "negative" energy part. It couldn't really create any kind of momentum in space since the plates will be pulling at each other, thus cancelling out any kind of "thrust". And they're not so much pulling on each other, they're actually being pressed together from the outside energy, like how if you painted an asteroid white on one side, the white side would be pushed harder by the sun than the unpainted side. In reality, negative energy does not exist at all except as a thought experiment. Even warp drives would be impossible even if it did exist, because whether you're moving through space or space is moving around you, something it moving at you in high velocity, which is every single particle in space from point A to point B, which would destroy you. You wouldn't just need negative energy, but also negative space, so that your spaceship is infinitesimally small that it avoids those particles....except whoops, now your entire ship is a singularity that almost instantly evaporates as hawking radiation, thus defeating the point. Now maybe if we find some way to affect the fabric of space itself, we could modulate it in some way to create a bubble that effectively phases us parallel to normal space, but that's doubtful too, because virtual particles would likely exist there too. Essentially, if a layer of space existed where nothing existed, we could use it for FTL travel. But there's likely no layer of space like that. Another possible novel trick is if you could somehow transform things into a wave that is as big as a galaxy or the universe itself, you could effectively collapse the wave intelligently and use that to determine where the wave ultimately collapses, but just like negative energy, it would require something that simply doesn't exist.
That is very intriguing! And THANK YOU for saying “brings up the question,” not the ubiquitous but improper “begs the question”. As you know and apparently most others don’t, begging the question is a logical fallacy-petitio principii. It does NOT mean raises, brings up, or suggests the question. As an erstwhile logic professor, this is a savage goat-getter for me, as you can tell
The potential energy arising from the combined electronegativity of the molecules in the materials can contribute to the overall interaction between the plates, leading to the observed attractive force in the Casimir effect.
Sabine, in my university, we have investigated the effect in a static and dynamic manner. The most simple way ist to use low voltage MLCC (Multi Layer Ceramic Camacitor) or Tantal Capacitors and connect a OPAMP current amplifier (transimpedance circuit) to it. You will get a temperature independent 1/f-noise.
@@DrBeah That's correct and I haven't claimed otherwise. However, the Casimir effect is as static as the quantum vacuum itself. Therefore, some charges always emerge and disappear between the two plates. Since these field ripples dynamically fluctuate, you can simply take a current amplifier, attach it to the two plates as mentioned in my post and you will get a clear and stable noise signal, that is not kT-noise. It is independent from temperature. The funny thing is, you can extract a tiny amount of energy from the quantum vacuum by a filter. Of course, the amount is far far away of being useful, but it is detectable and supports QFT.
Okay, I'm a simple guy, so I think in simple terms. Metal plates have electrons that randomly move around. As they do, the plates become polarized. The dipole moment of a plate randomly changes. Those random changes of the polarization of one plate affect polarization of the other plate in such a way that the plates attract each other. In other words, Casimir force between the plates has the same origin as the van der Waals force between neutral atoms.
It's actually more along the lines of - only particular standing waves can exist between the plates as they have to complete a half cycle exactly. Waves outside the plates have no such limitation. So there are more of them, and the overall energy outside the plates is therefore higher than that between them.
@@IanM-id8or yours is of course the standard explanation. But the phenomenon @MrKarpovy describes needs to be accounted for also for the uniqueness of the Casimir effect to stand out.
@@IanM-id8orto add on this, those waves mean less virtual particles pop into existence between the plates, than outside the plates. This is how I believe that there isn't negative energy, it's just that empty space isn't truely empty.
@@wb3904 Now imagine these plates in true empty space devoid of any gravity and em waves but the waves and gravity created by the 2 plates. You think they not gonna be attracted at even greater distance?
the trick is to understand the universal trick of gradients. whenever a gradient is applied, forces can be observed. what you see in the casimir effect is the simple information (or therefore entropy) gradient within the given space.. the maximum amount of entropy (or potential and actualized energy) in one space differs to another and thus balancing takes place, which shows us the force (workload) happening there
From possible explanations I've heard, instead of it being an actual negative energy, it's a reduction in the underlying quantum field strength. So not really negative energy, just a lower energy region than outside of the plates. Kind is like when people describe a vacuum as "negative pressure" which isn't a real thing, they just measured a "negative" gauge pressure.
Sounds similar to the effect of two ships at sea getting closer to each other if they sail side by side because the waves only hit them from one side each, but I guess if it were that simple then there wouldn't be a conundrum.
Actually the effect *is* quite similar, just that in the case of the casimir effect replace 'ocean waves' with 'energy wavelengths'. You can get the same effect in any medium with some equivalent to pressure waves, such as sound waves in air.
Havent heard of this one before. But I imagine one is in the shadow of the other... that its not that they are attracting each other, but that an outside force is pushing one towards the other. There could even be and airflow type of analogy... where its actually possible to fix the leading plate and get the rear plate to suck in from a venturi type effect.
I though it was because of virtual particles coming into existence outside of the plate striking the outside of plate and the plates causing a void between the plates.
That is what Sabine means by „different vacuum“. Quantumfluctuations are virtual particles and the conditions in between the plates allow fewer virtual particles to exist (because of their wavelength). There is also a non quantum explanation via Van der Waals forces and it is producing valid results aswell.
I thought it was sort of like hawking radiation in which the plates act as a sort of horizon for the particles involved to escape annihilation, but then I remembered that hawking radiation exists by virtue of drawing energy from the black hole, so it should be the total energy state would be zero not negative.
I suggest you look up the work of Eric w. Davis. Casimir warp bubble. He experimentally shows fixed charged micro casimir cavities producing a negative warp bubble in the quantum background feild. This behavior is like the flux tubes of atom. Another way to create negative energy is with spinning phase-conjugated mirrors.
I studied algebtaic QFT (one of the attempts to formulate a mathematically consistent QFT) for my PhD and the Casimir effect was one of the most interesting parts! If I recall, it didn't make sense to define the "energy density" of a particular vacuum, as it would come put as infinite. However, the *difference* between energy densities of two vacua *could* be computed. Its that difference which is negative between the plates. But thats just telling us what we already know. So to me, the mystery isnt why the energy density between the plates is negative (that just means its smaller than outside), but rather how to interpret the infinite energy density common to *all* vacua.
This is pretty much the van der walls effect charging a microcapacitor. In a vacuum you lose the charge carriers. The temperature of your plates actually cools a bit if you harness this.
Any uncharged surface sufficiently close to another will finally attract due to molecular forces caused by the polarization of molecules in close proximity. This effect is theorized for such things as gauge blocks and Gecko's feet. No quantum vacuum needed.
its because the photons emitted are having their outer spins cancel upon photon photon contact because they're spinning in the opposite direction, while photons that arrive from outside which make contact are having their outer spins doubled over
I heard from guy at the pizza shop; It correlates to magnetism. The "pressure" is the differential of compressed spacetime between the plates. As the plates get closer the space and time between the pates is reduced relative to the outside of the plates.
We do not even know if the overall charge of the universe is zero; symmetry is not really a proof of the net amount being zero. The only thing we know is: positive charge + negative charge of Electron and Proton restoring the sum of overall charge of the particles back to the average. Like waves in the ocean have heights and lows, the total amount of water is not required to be zero. All we can measure is the deviation from the average when negative charge experiences a displacement from the positive charge.
I think what is going on is that the bound electrons at the surface of the metal experience mutual repulsion due to their negative charge. These electrons which are looped waves in the medium of space then act like a magnetic dipole so the force of attraction is magnetic. These electrons would have random spin orientation so some would attract and some would repel. Those that attract would be relatively closer together so the magnetic force of attraction would be greater than the magnetic force of repulsion.
I always thought that electrons spinning around atom nucleolus (at least that is how electrons used to be portrayed - like planets round a sun) might gradually sync-up very very slightly between plates ... e.g. two plates -one on the left one on right. Then over nanoseconds the electrons on the left plate move left as the elections on the right plate move left. As the electrons on the left move right the electrons on the right move right so each side electron are fractionally closer to the opposing plates positive center as they rotate causing a slight attraction. Not all electrons all the time but enough syncing between to cause some attraction
Simple experiment to test this: instead of using two plates, use two cylinders. The cylinders should be made of conductive foil one inside the other placed closely enough that plates at that distance would demonstrate the Casimir effect. The air in the closed chamber should be pumped out The cylinders should be discharged/grounded, and then the ground should be removed. Then Lasers can be pointed at the outside cylinder and reflect back-and-forth off the inside cylinder to detect deformation. The amount of deformation can be used to calculate the force of the Casimir effect. The circumference of the cylinders can gradually be reduced until the central cylinder has a diameter, smaller than the width at which the Casimir effect is normally observed between two flat plates. Since the wave lengths allowed inside the central cylinder will be less than the wavelengths normally allowed on the opposite side of one of the flat plates used when the Casimir effect is normally tested, we should be able to determine the degree to which quantum fluctuations restricted by wave length can influence the attraction between the surfaces.
Sabine, please make a video examining this recent paper "Supernovae evidence for foundational change to cosmological models". It suggests that dark energy and the acceleration of cosmic inflation may be an illusion.
If you read the wikipedia page on the Casimir effect, you can see how the computation uses zeta-function regularisation to compute ζ(−3) = -1/120. Compare that to the standard Ramanujan summation which is ζ(−1) = -1/12.
@@rahantr1Since you asked for a video I also assumed you didn't know where to look for information. They weren't being condescending they were simply referring to where you can find information
I think the two plates just simply exchange some rogue electrons between themselves and thus creating a very weak bound like force. It's just like trying to heal a wound when you cut yourself, the flesh will try to stick back again even though it may not be the best recovery.
Stuff happens in a lab, Doctor. The question is how do you keep it falling up. Right? We're working on it. Little different glad you did this to remind me
How do they isolate the plates from any charge? There is a charge of 100 volts every meter above ground in the atmosphere. Then there are radio waves, micro waves, light, and other electromagnetic frequencies constantly moving even in a vacuum. All those frequencies can induce a charge.
@@brendanwood1540 Fair weather natural field is pretty much vertical outdoors (if you ask about it). But presence of technical EM fields (in the lab and elsewhere) is more problem-hence Faraday cage to eliminate that
@@JahacMilfova I think the real question is that truly isolation or is it just changing the order of things like a cat in a box. You can only approximate based on an interpolated signal. But in the entire spectrum we have signals even from every atom in the surrounding environment. Each like a pendulum in free space influencing the others. As far as I am aware Faraday cages conduct electricity and most of the mid range of the electromagnetic spectrum. It does not block anything above sound like light or radiation. Nor would it block extremely low frequencies like hypothetically if gravity was just a very low frequency. Like the resonant frequency of the earth for example; approximately 7.83 Hz.
@@JahacMilfova That specific harmonic resonant frequency is the exact circumference of the earth FYI. Which can help us establish that every physical body has a dimensional wavelength and that geometry is also influenced by stronger surrounding fields. Plants seem entirely controlled by those fields. While we can form in a variety of orientations within the womb.
Casimir effect! Really famous in physical chemistry circles. As this effect is used to describe weak interactions, someone should do the experiment with two sheets of graphene.
Yeah i have been thinking about it for years now, the biggest question for me is, why are those two plates there in the first place at such a narrow distance from each other, yet originally not moving anywhere? Where did they come from, why and how are they there?
Hi, Dr. Hossenfeld, theoretically the Casimir effect may come from the zero point energy of the vacuum of space from quantum fluctuations. Since energy fluctuates this may be why in very short time frames negative energy may manifest briefly, just like virtual.particles. The plates curve their area in a quantum field of space. So, the plates may be falling along that minute curvature down toward each other. Imagine such plates on the surface of the ocean. 😊
now i have a stupid question: are we sure about it not just being an effect related to the atomes of the plates? the plates are very close together, so couldn´t it be just (at least partial) some sort of attraction between the atoms of both plates?
@@erinm9445 Very true, but I would fall out of my chair laughing if one day, a scientist came out and reported "sorry, sorry, it was just atoms and gravity doing things we hadn't predicted. The RUclipsrs win today".
The scientists did think of this and the Casimir force can be explained by the varying electric field inside the atoms of both plates, that create attractive Van-der-Waals forces, which pull the plates together. But this doesn't disprove the more fundamental model, that involves vacuum fluctuations. There's actually a big debate, whether vacuum fluctuations are real and many physicists claim that the Casimir effect proves they are real. But since the Casimir effect can also be explained by Van-der-Waals forces, many other physicists claim, the Casimir effect doesn't prove anything about vacuum fluctuations. There are other experiments though, that do suggest the existence of vacuum fluctuations, and if they exist, they should be seen as the more fundamental theory to explain the Casimir effect (rather than Van-der-Waals forces, which would then arise from vacuum fluctuations).
It’s the same force acting on the inside of the plates which is defined as weak force within the nuclear… probably as transducer the Energy-Nodes of the aether.
Hello Sabine! I love your videos, thank you❤ But if I am allowed to give some advice: I don't think shorts fit your kind of public. We are not lazy, we can handle long videos😂 And short videos are too short for us, they convey to little information...Keep it up❤
The Casimir effect might be part of the classical principle of gravitation governed by an inverse-square law: “Any two masses are in a condition of reciprocal attraction, the magnitude of which varies directly with their product and inversely with the square of their separation.” This means that if the separation is doubled the reciprocal attraction is quartered; if the separation is increased fourfold the reciprocal attraction is diminished by a factor of sixteen, and so on. It may mean that the closer that two plates of mass come together, the force of gravity will become less positive and more negative in accordance with the Casimir effect, perhaps until the two masses unite into one compact mass. These laws also apply to psychological mechanisms which reflect the materialistic thought processes of human beings in the same manner of unity against separation. Compassion (negative) against aggression (positive).
We know how heavy the plates are and how much gravitational attraction that produces. The point is that the Casimir effect not only produces more attraction between the plates but also mathematically produces negative energy in the plates, and mass-energy equivalence (E=mc²) implies a tiny negative mass. The problem is that the negative mass is so tiny (because it's the energy divided by the speed of light squared) we can't measure its effect.
This may be a clue for warp generation. Someone needs to put multiple plates togeter, start them in staggered compression in different frequencies, and observe what happens.
Well, in practice we can't do it (the Casimir energy density is super tiny). However, in principle that should be possible and I don't know anything that would forbid it. That's what makes this problem so weird!
If the gravity would be weak enough one plate could be pulled up by another. The energy for putting it down again needs to come from somewhere. I heard many fun stories about how useful this effect could be to get free energy. But it's not useful for that. The plates attract each other until they collide and you need to put the energy back in to divide those plates.
It appears to be where the new physics is hiding in plain view. If you view particle physics its an attribute of unknown particle interactions. If its all about waveform interaction then its again unknown interactions. We will spend another 100 years stuck in the same uncertainty.
The arguments about the Casimir effect? There are several. One is whether it's actually a quantum field theory effect or not. Another one is whether this negative energy is real, or whether that's some sort of mathematical artefact. The third one is whether, if it's real, that negative energy would anti-gravitate.
Numberphile, Mathologer and others have done videos demonstrating that the sum of all positive integers (1+2+3+4…) is (in a magical way involving analytic continuation) “equal” to -1/12. NEGATIVE one-twelfth!! This puzzling answer was put forward by none other than famed Indian mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujan. Interestingly the sum of all positive integers is a term in the Casimir Effect equation. When the two plates are brought together in demonstration of the Casimir effect there is a small attractive force. Perhaps if the sum of all positive integers were indeed infinity(as one might intuitively surmise) the plates would infinitely repel each other and destroy the entire universe as they exploded away in opposite directions 😮. I would love to see a video describing how the infinite sum of integers is related to the Casimir effect.
My own take is it is the latter. Like potentials, it is the relative difference that is important. The kicker though is that this energy density should contribute to the stress-energy tensor in GR. Hence, at what point is the vacuum not contributing a positive value to the stress-energy tensor. That is why Sabine has sleepless nights wondering how modified the vacuum must be before antigravity becomes a thing or not.
Even if it works as stated, it's just a force like magnetism or gravity. There is no work that it can do unless you put work in to pull the plates apart. People have been hyping it like it's some kind of desktop power source.
This is again a problem of quantum theory only caring about relative values of energy, while General Relativity (ironically) caring about an absolute value of energy.
What I really like about physics is that the Universe just iff so not as obvious as Newton thought. Take the time it takes for a neutron to decay. The time can be measured but it’s different depending on the technique used.
I think magnetic waves pass more easily through metal. They can alter the magnetic wave pattern. Maybe it has something to do with atom alignment or magnets.
Sounds like wringing- when two very flat surfaces adhere to each other like high quality thickness gauges. One way to eliminate the possibility of the cause of adhesion being the vacuum of the absence of air, would to place the two plates in a perfect vacuum. The vacuum of space wouldn't work with two pieces of metal since they would become welded together. Which causes me to wonder if this welding is caused by the Casimir effect.
@Berend-ov8of this tablet I'm responding to your comment with adheres to a painted metal cabinet I place it on regularly. It doesn't sit perfectly flat, because the lense sticks out a millimeter or two, so I think that rules out suction as the cause for adherence. Being a tablet, I would think the case would be made out of a material that provides shielding as well as antistatic properties leading me to believe that it has something to do with the close approximation of electrons in both surfaces.
Since I first heard of the effect gravity came to mind. Two are more masses move towards each other because of the blocking effect of the reduction in vacuum energy. This energy is blocked on the inside a very small amount and interferes with the scaler potential. But what do I know gravity is not the only effect to consider however everything is connected to everything else . In 1958 the research into gravity and antigravity became quite like something happened in the research the government and military had been doing. And we know that high voltage can move objects as if pressure is being applied. Townsend brown achieved that in a vacuum. Antigravity is important as so-called free energy. Another subject we are sure someone is interested in hiding the technology but is now being shown to be real and workable !!!
I was always told the casimir effect was due to the quantum foam of reality which continually appears and disappears in the vacuum of space (and which causes hawking radiation at the swartzchild radius of a black hole). It has less room to appear in the area between the plates, due to being occluded by them, and therefore there is a higher pressure on the "big" side of each plate, pushing them together?...
That's the explanation I've heard. Virtual particles popping in and out of existence. The plates restrict the higher energy virtual particles from popping in between the plates and so the pressure is higher outside the plates.
It seems to me that the crookes radio meter shows that light has a push, and since metal reflects light and there's no light in between two metal plates It seems reasonable to assume that that would produce a pressure on the outside of the metal plates.
How coherent is the medium - vacuum in this case - over the surounding volume ? What coherent medium units of the vacuum medium can "hand over" the "pressure" over any distance ? Do these medium units exist long enough to hand over and carry the "pressure" up until the surface of the plate ? Because if these "appearances" do not last long enough how can they build a "pressure " over a distance longer than their "appearance" radius ? deducted from this could it mean the " pressure" can only exist right on the border of the surface in the "radius" of the "appearance" since " appearances" do not last long enough to carry the "presure" over more than one "appearance" distance, because they allegedly fluctuate ? or is it something else ?
That’s #Bull-Sh’t … There is no difference between the space outside the parameters of the double-plates and the space within. What is different is that the internal space between the plates is being compressed and “activated” as any other substance under pressure may morph. #Piezo-electricity 😊
I think a better question (and a testable one) is if you bring two conductive plates close enough together for there to be a Casimir effect between them, is the space *behind* the plates affected? To test, bring two conductive plates very close together in a vacuum chamber while having a laser beam shining behind and parallel to one of the plates. If the beam shifts as the plates are brought together within Casimir-effect distance then the space outside is affected.
it is a form of vdw force at play, the evidence for vacuum fluctuations beeing the cause is dubious at best since it doesmt even have a real derivation unlike the explaination via vdw
do they fall sideways? how about a slight angle so that gravity isn't acting so strongly against one falling uphill. does it matter how thick the plates are as long as they're conductive? can it be so thin that that reduces the mass enough to make the attractive force proportionately stronger? if it does "fall up" can one gain energy by letting it fall down again? but...if it wants to fall up how is that different from two magnets snapping together...one upward. it'll take energy to separate the magnets. but would the attraction disappear with the casimir plates when the distance is zero? is there a way to "turn them off"? maybe make them not conductive anymore..like a lightswitch?
Wouldn’t we expect them to come together?? Seems like there’s aplenty of possible explanations like gravity, magnetic moments aligning, maybe charges of the plates are generally equal but on smaller scales there are charge patterns or even EM structures. In the surface, it doesn’t seem like external factors would be needed to explain the behaviour.
I second those asking for a full-length video on this subject, please.
Thirded
@@utuberrocks-q5j frothed
One-'hundreded'.
You can observe the same effect by dropping two ice cream sticks or plastic drinking straws along side of each other in a tank of water. When you make some small waves in the water, the 2 are pushed together. The keyword here is _pushed._ The apparent sucking force is the relative absence of waves in the shielded water between the 2.
bump!
I explained this in a shop the other day regarding why its nearly impossible to open one of those plastic shopping bags.
Lmao that’s great 😂
that’s not why
@@Walczyk It was a joke. Or he was making an analogy between the Casimir effect and the vacuum inside the bags that you can't fill because you can't get it open. But really, he was making a joke.
I love how the first or second response is an immediate argument.
@@JordanLyon-w8ealways. You could probably write a doctoral thesis on how any comment in yt comments will have a dissenting opinion within 3 responses
This effect is a real pain when designing MEMS chips
Explain
I would think the residual gas would completely overwhelm the effect.
@@drsjamesserra I think that going to the nano scale or lower the Casimir force becomes more and more powerful, causing anything mechanical to not work as intended. That said there might be applications where the force can help
Well, please explain, how do you work around it when you design your chips
put a dummy plate on the outside. Repeat until you have an anchor point?
Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves!
🤣Sergeant Oddball was always my fave 🤣
Ruff Ruff
@@orazor777That was your other dog impression.
@@teemusid haha nice 😊
Definitely a full length video required. Some are confusing this with the Van der Vaals force
Okay, what? This requires a full-length video. If that doesn't fit into your video programming, then maybe PBS Spacetime should do it.
I would like, but how i understand it the casimir effect should not happen. Hard to make a video explaining something nobody can and goes against our understanding of physics.
@@legro19not really. There are some very reasonable explanations for this effect. See Wikipedia.
@@PeterBaumgart1a Yes but all of them are kind of speculative.
Fermilab had a video about virtual particles in which this efffect was described.
the vacuum between the plates contains waves of only a certain size, so that the distance between the plates is a multiple of the wavelength. therefore, there is less energy between the plates than outside. By the way, the magnitude of this effect was calculated thanks to the great Indian mathematician Ramanujan.
I've heard many physicists argue that over all, there is no negative energy involved at all, because the "negative" value between the plates is only negative *relative* to the vacuum energy outside the plates. Maybe there's a strong argument that disproves this point, but maybe this negative energy value effectively just means that there's less vacuum energy between the plates than outside, without ever violating the positive-energy condition. Idk.
I’m not gonna act like an expert but I’ve been looking into it recently and I think this is 100% the case. It’s “negative” in the sense it’s less than baseline, like if you removed some water from an ocean and kept that “lower” amount in some space, there will be more energy pushing in on that space than out because it’s trying to reach that homeostasis/equilibrium/baseline/whatever other word you can think of lol
Thinking you could you interpret is as a sort of filter for electromagnetic noise, resulting in a lower entropy than a purely random spectrum. Reducing the space between the plates reduces the area with that lower entropy. I wonder if there are other analogs. I'm guessing similar dynamics with brownian motion have been found.
@@davidnoll9581 WEAK FORCE TENSION
I mean, doesn’t it make logical sense to set the energy in vacuum to be zero? If that is what the standard is, it’s not just relatively negative?
@@thunder5048Define zero. What does no energy look like? How do you measure it? Are you sure you picked the right zero point? What mathematical models are you using to determine said zero point? Are they rigorous?
That's what makes these weird edge cases hard. They're hard to define, and harder to get everyone to agree on a definition.
Hi Sabine! Break a piece of metal in a vacuum, then put the two pieces back together. They vacuum weld. If you get lucky in the shape of the break, the same van der Waals (atomic-scale charge nudging) and metallic bond (delocalized electrons) that hold the metal together internally reactivate across the narrow gap, pulling the pieces back together and making them a single piece again.
Given that these are the same forces that make lumps of metal or other materials possible in the first place, there is no need to make the vacuum the final source of the snap-back energy. It is only a return of the energy stored by breaking the metal in the first place.
The vacuum wave analysis idea was Bohr’s idea, not Casimir's. There was no need for it since the known internal bonding forces of the plates were already entirely sufficient to explain the attraction effect and, more importantly, to provide precise mathematical limits on how much energy could be stored.
Bohr’s far more idealized approach - idealized because, e.g., there is no such thing as a “perfect” plane in grainy atomic matter - unfortunately had the opposite effect. Instead of fully quantifying the forces and energy release in terms of the well-known bonding forces inside material objects, Bohr added a redundant hypothetical energy originating from “the vacuum.”
The fact that Bohr’s vacuum energy addition duplicates already well-known internal binding forces is a warning sign. Good old conservation of energy. It's still a great guiding principle!
The interesting piece is what you described: Why is vacuum energy between the two nearby plates negative?
Unfortunately, it's nothing more than a modeling error. Both metal pieces create Van der Waals and metallic bonding potentials close to their surfaces. If one incorrectly extends these near-surface bonding potentials to infinity, the energy potential between the surfaces necessarily goes negative when the bonds begin to reform.
Sabine, I am sorry, and since I'm nothing but a poor, bewildered programmer, I don't expect you to believe me. Nonetheless, for the record, there is no wiggle room for negative gravitational energy in any of this. Bohr did not realize that material objects have bonding fields with positive energy extending slightly beyond their boundaries. By incorrectly presuming a near-field energized vacuum to be a ”pure” vacuum, Bohr wound up with nothing more than an illusion of negative energy vacuums.
The actual energy drop when two plates approach closely is always smaller than the bonding potential of their near fields and thus always positive in terms of gravitational energy.
Then you should hire someone who would do calculation for you. Then publish your paper for review. edit: not "hire" but work together.
@@leachblah6313, heh, sorry, my self-mocking sometimes makes me come over as a bit more helpless than I am. While I am, indeed, a mere software programmer, I'm also one who speaks physics fluently and is very good at debugging. Physics could use a lot of debugging these days.
I did a deep dive on Casimir a year or so ago, but I've been putting off a deeper dive into resolving Casimir's absurd transparency argument.
This discussion forced me back into it, and I think I've got a pretty good resolution to the transparency argument.
I'll mention my paper here when I feel comfortable with the analysis. I self-publish at Apabistia Press. My only reviewer is me, but since I think most of my ideas are incredibly stupid and don't mind being blunt in telling myself that, it works out.
@@TerryBollinger People with worse ideas than you have published before. The worst they got is just rejection and nothing more. Yours is a bit interesting. It definitely deserves some attention.
@@leachblah6313 thank you, that's much appreciated! I once checked briefly into one of the major journals but lost all interest when I discovered they charged a thousand dollars or so to make an article “open.” I had some interesting email exchanges with the editor. I think he finally realized how (for him, unexpectedly) offensive the pay-to-play meaning of “open” is to someone like me from the open-source software community.
I once pretty much annihilated my long-term career to keep one company from destroying open-source software in the US, and I would do it over again in a split second. A friend of mine, whom I neglected to warn of how vicious and unexpected attacks can be on such issues, committed suicide. “Open” is a word that means a lot to me personally, and it's not easy for me to contemplate participating and what I consider a serious misuse of the concept.
Also, I still firmly believe that predatory publishing is predatory publishing, even if it's Nature charging $10,000 for the prestige of publishing with them. Pay-to-play never, ever produces good science in the long term.
I understand the financial pressures, and I cannot suggest a good alternative, but what is going on now is not the right path.
@@leachblah6313, again, thanks. If you have a specific collaboration suggestion, please let me know directly. I'm not hard to find. However, for my current goals, rapid self-publishing with little concern for audience width - I already have better depth than you might expect - works better than excruciating slow external review cycles. That's especially true since much of what I'm doing is better understood as solution-space scouting.
The Kashmir effect is listening to Led Zeppelin in the desert. 🐪
That identical experience can also be very different across those doing it, and not pose a fallacious contradiction.
Prefer to listen to Kashmir in Shangri-la. More comfortable than a desert...
I suspect the plates simply can't be too light, as in that case they would no longer effectively shield the space between them (i.e. they would become too translucent). The overall effective energy would be the volume-weighted average of the 'negative' space in between the plates, and the plates themselves - and would always come out positive.
Yes indeed I had been thinking the same. However, while this might be the case in practice for sure, I do not see any way why this would have to be fundamentally so. If it was, that would also be interesting because it would require a so-far unknown relation between geometry and the constants of nature.
@@SabineHossenfelder: There is a case where I would argue that the mass of the plates becomes a trivial bit of minutea: when one of the plates is in orbit around the other. Is there a scale at which the Casimir effect disappears, or does it contribute in some (miniscule) fashion to dark energy?
Ah Yes, the old Cosmic plate mass exclusion hypothesis. 🙂
@@absalomdraconis then you have rotational energy involved, plus moving uncharged conductors causes some electromagnetic effects too
i tend to agree. difference of potential is what is important here.
On first hearing this I recall the very moment I was introduced to this. 2003 in New Scientist, a sunny day in Melbourn. I acepted the explination of twenty years ago. I am excited this is being thought through again. Thankyou.
It's just a bug in the code.
If enough people would report it then maybe it will get fixed.
What is the scientific consensus on using the negative energy in the Casimir effect as the negative energy required in the Alcubierre warp drive? A long time ago I was on a science message board and someone did the math (which was over my head...) and he determined that you'd have to have plates no larger than one atom thick. And then came along graphene and I've wondered ever since.
As long as the manufacturer made the plates in space without a proximity force or big gravity affecting the process.
We just don't know enough about the vacuum/quantum gravity to definitively answer these questions yet. Unfortunately the Alcubierre drive isn't physically feasible as it stands at the moment.
sry, but the energy between the plates is still positive.
It has nothing to do with actual energy being expended or created. It's still positive energy, just less of it between the plates than outside of it, due to the restriction of quantum states and their wavelengths in the spatial proximity of the plates. So for example, if the space between the plates is smaller than a given wavelength, then no wavelength of that type can exist or be created within it, so you end up with the absence of it, which is the "negative" energy part. It couldn't really create any kind of momentum in space since the plates will be pulling at each other, thus cancelling out any kind of "thrust". And they're not so much pulling on each other, they're actually being pressed together from the outside energy, like how if you painted an asteroid white on one side, the white side would be pushed harder by the sun than the unpainted side.
In reality, negative energy does not exist at all except as a thought experiment. Even warp drives would be impossible even if it did exist, because whether you're moving through space or space is moving around you, something it moving at you in high velocity, which is every single particle in space from point A to point B, which would destroy you. You wouldn't just need negative energy, but also negative space, so that your spaceship is infinitesimally small that it avoids those particles....except whoops, now your entire ship is a singularity that almost instantly evaporates as hawking radiation, thus defeating the point.
Now maybe if we find some way to affect the fabric of space itself, we could modulate it in some way to create a bubble that effectively phases us parallel to normal space, but that's doubtful too, because virtual particles would likely exist there too. Essentially, if a layer of space existed where nothing existed, we could use it for FTL travel. But there's likely no layer of space like that.
Another possible novel trick is if you could somehow transform things into a wave that is as big as a galaxy or the universe itself, you could effectively collapse the wave intelligently and use that to determine where the wave ultimately collapses, but just like negative energy, it would require something that simply doesn't exist.
That is very intriguing! And THANK YOU for saying “brings up the question,” not the ubiquitous but improper “begs the question”. As you know and apparently most others don’t, begging the question is a logical fallacy-petitio principii. It does NOT mean raises, brings up, or suggests the question. As an erstwhile logic professor, this is a savage goat-getter for me, as you can tell
Thank you.
The potential energy arising from the combined electronegativity of the molecules in the materials can contribute to the overall interaction between the plates, leading to the observed attractive force in the Casimir effect.
Yes
I'm sure the scientists researching this effect and reviewing these papers took these stray forces into account.
I think I saw you have one of these arguments in person with Jacob 15ish years ago in California
Wow, do you have a reference? Can it be watched?
@@Thomas-gk42this was informal discussion after online.kitp.ucsb.edu/online/fluctuate08/intravaia/pdf/Intravaia_Fluctuate_KITP.pdf
Sabine, in my university, we have investigated the effect in a static and dynamic manner. The most simple way ist to use low voltage MLCC (Multi Layer Ceramic Camacitor) or Tantal Capacitors and connect a OPAMP current amplifier (transimpedance circuit) to it. You will get a temperature independent 1/f-noise.
No static charge is needed to produce the Casimir effect.
@@DrBeah That's correct and I haven't claimed otherwise. However, the Casimir effect is as static as the quantum vacuum itself. Therefore, some charges always emerge and disappear between the two plates. Since these field ripples dynamically fluctuate, you can simply take a current amplifier, attach it to the two plates as mentioned in my post and you will get a clear and stable noise signal, that is not kT-noise. It is independent from temperature. The funny thing is, you can extract a tiny amount of energy from the quantum vacuum by a filter. Of course, the amount is far far away of being useful, but it is detectable and supports QFT.
Can you do a full video on this?
Amazing thing is plates always shown vertical until Sabine shows horizontal
Okay, I'm a simple guy, so I think in simple terms. Metal plates have electrons that randomly move around. As they do, the plates become polarized. The dipole moment of a plate randomly changes. Those random changes of the polarization of one plate affect polarization of the other plate in such a way that the plates attract each other. In other words, Casimir force between the plates has the same origin as the van der Waals force between neutral atoms.
It's actually more along the lines of - only particular standing waves can exist between the plates as they have to complete a half cycle exactly.
Waves outside the plates have no such limitation. So there are more of them, and the overall energy outside the plates is therefore higher than that between them.
@@IanM-id8or yours is of course the standard explanation. But the phenomenon
@MrKarpovy describes needs to be accounted for also for the uniqueness of the Casimir effect to stand out.
@@IanM-id8orto add on this, those waves mean less virtual particles pop into existence between the plates, than outside the plates. This is how I believe that there isn't negative energy, it's just that empty space isn't truely empty.
The macroscopic metaphor for this is the way two boats will bump together when they're close. Because only small waves will fit between them.
@@wb3904 Now imagine these plates in true empty space devoid of any gravity and em waves but the waves and gravity created by the 2 plates. You think they not gonna be attracted at even greater distance?
the trick is to understand the universal trick of gradients. whenever a gradient is applied, forces can be observed. what you see in the casimir effect is the simple information (or therefore entropy) gradient within the given space.. the maximum amount of entropy (or potential and actualized energy) in one space differs to another and thus balancing takes place, which shows us the force (workload) happening there
I just had a discussion yesterday about the existence of negative energy amazing
From possible explanations I've heard, instead of it being an actual negative energy, it's a reduction in the underlying quantum field strength. So not really negative energy, just a lower energy region than outside of the plates. Kind is like when people describe a vacuum as "negative pressure" which isn't a real thing, they just measured a "negative" gauge pressure.
I have a lifetime negative force. I push everyone away from me. Works for me!
Does that mean they are also negative?
Sounds similar to the effect of two ships at sea getting closer to each other if they sail side by side because the waves only hit them from one side each, but I guess if it were that simple then there wouldn't be a conundrum.
Actually the effect *is* quite similar, just that in the case of the casimir effect replace 'ocean waves' with 'energy wavelengths'. You can get the same effect in any medium with some equivalent to pressure waves, such as sound waves in air.
Pretty much any molecule changes alignment when near another, creating a field bias.
If negative energy existst, the alcubierre drive could actually be possible
Havent heard of this one before. But I imagine one is in the shadow of the other... that its not that they are attracting each other, but that an outside force is pushing one towards the other. There could even be and airflow type of analogy... where its actually possible to fix the leading plate and get the rear plate to suck in from a venturi type effect.
I would love to see the data, include altitude variance into the variables as well and that will show exactly what it means. 😉
I thought the effect was due to longer quantum wavelengths being excluded from the gap between the plates? (Well something like that!)
I though it was because of virtual particles coming into existence outside of the plate striking the outside of plate and the plates causing a void between the plates.
That was my layman´s understanding too, and I always figured it impausible.
That is what Sabine means by „different vacuum“. Quantumfluctuations are virtual particles and the conditions in between the plates allow fewer virtual particles to exist (because of their wavelength).
There is also a non quantum explanation via Van der Waals forces and it is producing valid results aswell.
I thought it was sort of like hawking radiation in which the plates act as a sort of horizon for the particles involved to escape annihilation, but then I remembered that hawking radiation exists by virtue of drawing energy from the black hole, so it should be the total energy state would be zero not negative.
Only the waves that can form standing waves between the plates can exist between the plates.
I suggest you look up the work of Eric w. Davis. Casimir warp bubble. He experimentally shows fixed charged micro casimir cavities producing a negative warp bubble in the quantum background feild. This behavior is like the flux tubes of atom. Another way to create negative energy is with spinning phase-conjugated mirrors.
I studied algebtaic QFT (one of the attempts to formulate a mathematically consistent QFT) for my PhD and the Casimir effect was one of the most interesting parts! If I recall, it didn't make sense to define the "energy density" of a particular vacuum, as it would come put as infinite. However, the *difference* between energy densities of two vacua *could* be computed. Its that difference which is negative between the plates. But thats just telling us what we already know.
So to me, the mystery isnt why the energy density between the plates is negative (that just means its smaller than outside), but rather how to interpret the infinite energy density common to *all* vacua.
This is pretty much the van der walls effect charging a microcapacitor. In a vacuum you lose the charge carriers. The temperature of your plates actually cools a bit if you harness this.
Does it matter what kind of metal the plates are made of ? Is the effect different/same for steel, aluminum, gold, lead etc ?
Any uncharged surface sufficiently close to another will finally attract due to molecular forces caused by the polarization of molecules in close proximity. This effect is theorized for such things as gauge blocks and Gecko's feet. No quantum vacuum needed.
Van Der Wals forces
Yes. One can only assume that they figured out a way to subtract those forces? 🤷
its because the photons emitted are having their outer spins cancel upon photon photon contact because they're spinning in the opposite direction, while photons that arrive from outside which make contact are having their outer spins doubled over
I heard from guy at the pizza shop; It correlates to magnetism. The "pressure" is the differential of compressed spacetime between the plates. As the plates get closer the space and time between the pates is reduced relative to the outside of the plates.
That wasn't the same guy who wrote his dissertation on "the thermodynamics of pizza" was it?
We do not even know if the overall charge of the universe is zero; symmetry is not really a proof of the net amount being zero.
The only thing we know is: positive charge + negative charge of Electron and Proton restoring the sum of overall charge of the particles back to the average.
Like waves in the ocean have heights and lows, the total amount of water is not required to be zero.
All we can measure is the deviation from the average when negative charge experiences a displacement from the positive charge.
I think what is going on is that the bound electrons at the surface of the metal experience mutual repulsion due to their negative charge. These electrons which are looped waves in the medium of space then act like a magnetic dipole so the force of attraction is magnetic.
These electrons would have random spin orientation so some would attract and some would repel. Those that attract would be relatively closer together so the magnetic force of attraction would be greater than the magnetic force of repulsion.
I always thought that electrons spinning around atom nucleolus (at least that is how electrons used to be portrayed - like planets round a sun) might gradually sync-up very very slightly between plates ... e.g. two plates -one on the left one on right. Then over nanoseconds the electrons on the left plate move left as the elections on the right plate move left. As the electrons on the left move right the electrons on the right move right so each side electron are fractionally closer to the opposing plates positive center as they rotate causing a slight attraction. Not all electrons all the time but enough syncing between to cause some attraction
Could be that tiny differences, so tiny we can't measure, turn out to be very impactful on the overall workings of the universe.
Simple experiment to test this: instead of using two plates, use two cylinders. The cylinders should be made of conductive foil one inside the other placed closely enough that plates at that distance would demonstrate the Casimir effect. The air in the closed chamber should be pumped out
The cylinders should be discharged/grounded, and then the ground should be removed. Then Lasers can be pointed at the outside cylinder and reflect back-and-forth off the inside cylinder to detect deformation. The amount of deformation can be used to calculate the force of the Casimir effect. The circumference of the cylinders can gradually be reduced until the central cylinder has a diameter, smaller than the width at which the Casimir effect is normally observed between two flat plates. Since the wave lengths allowed inside the central cylinder will be less than the wavelengths normally allowed on the opposite side of one of the flat plates used when the Casimir effect is normally tested, we should be able to determine the degree to which quantum fluctuations restricted by wave length can influence the attraction between the surfaces.
Sabine, please make a video examining this recent paper "Supernovae evidence for foundational change to cosmological models". It suggests that dark energy and the acceleration of cosmic inflation may be an illusion.
Sabine it'll be interesting to see a visual physical experiment about this.
The way you talk about it, to me, it seems the forces cancel each other.
How about a long video about this? I'd love to watch, especially if it mentions the Ramanujan summation as well.
If you read the wikipedia page on the Casimir effect, you can see how the computation uses zeta-function regularisation to compute ζ(−3) = -1/120. Compare that to the standard Ramanujan summation which is ζ(−1) = -1/12.
@@ianstopher9111 yeah I've heard of Wikipedia before.
@@rahantr1Since you asked for a video I also assumed you didn't know where to look for information. They weren't being condescending they were simply referring to where you can find information
Plus the Ramanujan sommation, we have here a big mathematical and physical curiosity.
Size of molecules and closeness of the plates allows lower pressure between the plates
I think the two plates just simply exchange some rogue electrons between themselves and thus creating a very weak bound like force. It's just like trying to heal a wound when you cut yourself, the flesh will try to stick back again even though it may not be the best recovery.
Stuff happens in a lab, Doctor. The question is how do you keep it falling up. Right? We're working on it. Little different glad you did this to remind me
How do they isolate the plates from any charge? There is a charge of 100 volts every meter above ground in the atmosphere. Then there are radio waves, micro waves, light, and other electromagnetic frequencies constantly moving even in a vacuum. All those frequencies can induce a charge.
Horizontal orientation of the plates + placement in a Faraday cage
@@JahacMilfova So electromagnetic fields are always oriented perpendicular to the ground like gravity?
@@brendanwood1540 Fair weather natural field is pretty much vertical outdoors (if you ask about it). But presence of technical EM fields (in the lab and elsewhere) is more problem-hence Faraday cage to eliminate that
@@JahacMilfova I think the real question is that truly isolation or is it just changing the order of things like a cat in a box. You can only approximate based on an interpolated signal. But in the entire spectrum we have signals even from every atom in the surrounding environment. Each like a pendulum in free space influencing the others.
As far as I am aware Faraday cages conduct electricity and most of the mid range of the electromagnetic spectrum. It does not block anything above sound like light or radiation. Nor would it block extremely low frequencies like hypothetically if gravity was just a very low frequency. Like the resonant frequency of the earth for example; approximately 7.83 Hz.
@@JahacMilfova That specific harmonic resonant frequency is the exact circumference of the earth FYI. Which can help us establish that every physical body has a dimensional wavelength and that geometry is also influenced by stronger surrounding fields. Plants seem entirely controlled by those fields. While we can form in a variety of orientations within the womb.
Put a hole in the plate. And double up on the plates. The shape of the hole, a twisted ribbon, maybe reveal with a circular bore would not.
When it comes to physics, it isn't often my guess is as good as yours.
Casimir effect! Really famous in physical chemistry circles. As this effect is used to describe weak interactions, someone should do the experiment with two sheets of graphene.
Yeah i have been thinking about it for years now, the biggest question for me is, why are those two plates there in the first place at such a narrow distance from each other, yet originally not moving anywhere? Where did they come from, why and how are they there?
Hi, Dr. Hossenfeld, theoretically the Casimir effect may come from the zero point energy of the vacuum of space from quantum fluctuations. Since energy fluctuates this may be why in very short time frames negative energy may manifest briefly, just like virtual.particles.
The plates curve their area in a quantum field of space. So, the plates may be falling along that minute curvature down toward each other.
Imagine such plates on the surface of the ocean. 😊
Need a whole video on this subject
now i have a stupid question: are we sure about it not just being an effect related to the atomes of the plates? the plates are very close together, so couldn´t it be just (at least partial) some sort of attraction between the atoms of both plates?
A good general rule of thumb is that if you as a youtube viewer can think of a hypothesis, the scientists have thought of it too.
@@erinm9445 Very true, but I would fall out of my chair laughing if one day, a scientist came out and reported "sorry, sorry, it was just atoms and gravity doing things we hadn't predicted. The RUclipsrs win today".
The scientists did think of this and the Casimir force can be explained by the varying electric field inside the atoms of both plates, that create attractive Van-der-Waals forces, which pull the plates together. But this doesn't disprove the more fundamental model, that involves vacuum fluctuations. There's actually a big debate, whether vacuum fluctuations are real and many physicists claim that the Casimir effect proves they are real. But since the Casimir effect can also be explained by Van-der-Waals forces, many other physicists claim, the Casimir effect doesn't prove anything about vacuum fluctuations. There are other experiments though, that do suggest the existence of vacuum fluctuations, and if they exist, they should be seen as the more fundamental theory to explain the Casimir effect (rather than Van-der-Waals forces, which would then arise from vacuum fluctuations).
I didn't understand most of this but it will be so cool in a few years when I finally get it!!
As a layperson, I’d love to hear you unravel what’s behind that question at the end.
Fascinating! ✌🏻🧡
What's the difference between the Casimir effect and London Dispersion forces?
It’s the same force acting on the inside of the plates which is defined as weak force within the nuclear… probably as transducer the Energy-Nodes of the aether.
I have a Casimir Scarf but i can't get it to stay around my neck for long.
Hello Sabine! I love your videos, thank you❤ But if I am allowed to give some advice: I don't think shorts fit your kind of public. We are not lazy, we can handle long videos😂 And short videos are too short for us, they convey to little information...Keep it up❤
Perhaps you could split it like this: "comic" short videos and "serious" long videos!
If the effect could be scaled up somehow, things could get very interesting
The Casimir effect might be part of the classical principle of gravitation governed by an inverse-square law: “Any two masses are in a condition of reciprocal attraction, the magnitude of which varies directly with their product and inversely with the square of their separation.” This means that if the separation is doubled the reciprocal attraction is quartered; if the separation is increased fourfold the reciprocal attraction is diminished by a factor of sixteen, and so on. It may mean that the closer that two plates of mass come together, the force of gravity will become less positive and more negative in accordance with the Casimir effect, perhaps until the two masses unite into one compact mass.
These laws also apply to psychological mechanisms which reflect the materialistic thought processes of human beings in the same manner of unity against separation. Compassion (negative) against aggression (positive).
We know how heavy the plates are and how much gravitational attraction that produces. The point is that the Casimir effect not only produces more attraction between the plates but also mathematically produces negative energy in the plates, and mass-energy equivalence (E=mc²) implies a tiny negative mass. The problem is that the negative mass is so tiny (because it's the energy divided by the speed of light squared) we can't measure its effect.
I like that you make no claim about the validity of the Casimir effect here!
This may be a clue for warp generation.
Someone needs to put multiple plates togeter, start them in staggered compression in different frequencies, and observe what happens.
this would explain some of my family's tempestuous ways
Well...How less heavy can these plates be? Can they be so small as much as to be outweighed by the negative energy referred here and 'fall' up?
Well, in practice we can't do it (the Casimir energy density is super tiny). However, in principle that should be possible and I don't know anything that would forbid it. That's what makes this problem so weird!
@@SabineHossenfelder So, in principle, how exactly should the experimental setup be so that it can fall up?
@@SabineHossenfelderSo,in principle, how should the experimental setup be so that it can fall up?
@@vijay_r_g: I would hazard a guess that the "simplist" approach is for one of the plates to be in orbit of the other.
Pls make a detailed video about casinir effect and the problem with current explanation
If the gravity would be weak enough one plate could be pulled up by another. The energy for putting it down again needs to come from somewhere. I heard many fun stories about how useful this effect could be to get free energy. But it's not useful for that. The plates attract each other until they collide and you need to put the energy back in to divide those plates.
Its still an attractive force, so no falling up.
It appears to be where the new physics is hiding in plain view. If you view particle physics its an attribute of unknown particle interactions. If its all about waveform interaction then its again unknown interactions.
We will spend another 100 years stuck in the same uncertainty.
As far as I know, this is the only physical phenomenon where the maths quirk 1+2+3+4+… = -1/12 is relevant and directly applicable.
Vacuum fluctuations can be outwitted so easily?
Would you contemplate to tell us the arguments?
What do you mean with "outwitted"?
@@bjornfeuerbacher5514 Well, it´s a really simple experiment and can change such a fundamental property like the vacuum density?
The arguments about the Casimir effect? There are several. One is whether it's actually a quantum field theory effect or not. Another one is whether this negative energy is real, or whether that's some sort of mathematical artefact. The third one is whether, if it's real, that negative energy would anti-gravitate.
@@Thomas-gk42 Yes. The important term here is "boundary conditions".
@@SabineHossenfelder thank you 😊
Numberphile, Mathologer and others have done videos demonstrating that the sum of all positive integers (1+2+3+4…) is (in a magical way involving analytic continuation) “equal” to -1/12. NEGATIVE one-twelfth!! This puzzling answer was put forward by none other than famed Indian mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujan. Interestingly the sum of all positive integers is a term in the Casimir Effect equation. When the two plates are brought together in demonstration of the Casimir effect there is a small attractive force. Perhaps if the sum of all positive integers were indeed infinity(as one might intuitively surmise) the plates would infinitely repel each other and destroy the entire universe as they exploded away in opposite directions 😮.
I would love to see a video describing how the infinite sum of integers is related to the Casimir effect.
Tiny attractive force between two extremely close plates? I'd bet it's gravity.
Is it really negative, or is it just less positive than the surrounding vacuum?
My own take is it is the latter. Like potentials, it is the relative difference that is important. The kicker though is that this energy density should contribute to the stress-energy tensor in GR. Hence, at what point is the vacuum not contributing a positive value to the stress-energy tensor. That is why Sabine has sleepless nights wondering how modified the vacuum must be before antigravity becomes a thing or not.
Even if it works as stated, it's just a force like magnetism or gravity. There is no work that it can do unless you put work in to pull the plates apart. People have been hyping it like it's some kind of desktop power source.
This is again a problem of quantum theory only caring about relative values of energy, while General Relativity (ironically) caring about an absolute value of energy.
the pressure is on the outside. I don't see the problem.
Is that negative energy bounded from below?
What I really like about physics is that the Universe just iff so not as obvious as Newton thought. Take the time it takes for a neutron to decay. The time can be measured but it’s different depending on the technique used.
imagine harnessing negative energy at an immense scale.
I've thought of this when taking to boats port side to port side. They stick together somewhat
I think magnetic waves pass more easily through metal. They can alter the magnetic wave pattern. Maybe it has something to do with atom alignment or magnets.
Sounds like wringing- when two very flat surfaces adhere to each other like high quality thickness gauges. One way to eliminate the possibility of the cause of adhesion being the vacuum of the absence of air, would to place the two plates in a perfect vacuum. The vacuum of space wouldn't work with two pieces of metal since they would become welded together. Which causes me to wonder if this welding is caused by the Casimir effect.
The wringing effect works on isolators too, such as ceramics.
@Berend-ov8of this tablet I'm responding to your comment with adheres to a painted metal cabinet I place it on regularly. It doesn't sit perfectly flat, because the lense sticks out a millimeter or two, so I think that rules out suction as the cause for adherence. Being a tablet, I would think the case would be made out of a material that provides shielding as well as antistatic properties leading me to believe that it has something to do with the close approximation of electrons in both surfaces.
@@LunarCascader What about magnets in the tablet?
@@Berend-ov8of Right, the speaker likely has one.
@Berend-ov8of it must be magnets. It won't adhere to glass, but it it sticks to a refrigerator with a slight texture. Doh! =( 8(o)
Since I first heard of the effect gravity came to mind. Two are more masses move towards each other because of the blocking effect of the reduction in vacuum energy. This energy is blocked on the inside a very small amount and interferes with the scaler potential. But what do I know gravity is not the only effect to consider however everything is connected to everything else . In 1958 the research into gravity and antigravity became quite like something happened in the research the government and military had been doing. And we know that high voltage can move objects as if pressure is being applied. Townsend brown achieved that in a vacuum. Antigravity is important as so-called free energy. Another subject we are sure someone is interested in hiding the technology but is now being shown to be real and workable !!!
I was always told the casimir effect was due to the quantum foam of reality which continually appears and disappears in the vacuum of space (and which causes hawking radiation at the swartzchild radius of a black hole). It has less room to appear in the area between the plates, due to being occluded by them, and therefore there is a higher pressure on the "big" side of each plate, pushing them together?...
That's the explanation I've heard. Virtual particles popping in and out of existence. The plates restrict the higher energy virtual particles from popping in between the plates and so the pressure is higher outside the plates.
It seems to me that the crookes radio meter shows that light has a push, and since metal reflects light and there's no light in between two metal plates It seems reasonable to assume that that would produce a pressure on the outside of the metal plates.
It's not the plates, it's the gap. Everything is due to spacetime in the end.
Cazimir effect requires a deep-dive video and a massive joint imho
How coherent is the medium - vacuum in this case - over the surounding volume ? What coherent medium units of the vacuum medium can "hand over" the "pressure" over any distance ? Do these medium units exist long enough to hand over and carry the "pressure" up until the surface of the plate ? Because if these "appearances" do not last long enough how can they build a "pressure " over a distance longer than their "appearance" radius ? deducted from this could it mean the " pressure" can only exist right on the border of the surface in the "radius" of the "appearance" since " appearances" do not last long enough to carry the "presure" over more than one "appearance" distance, because they allegedly fluctuate ? or is it something else ?
That’s #Bull-Sh’t … There is no difference between the space outside the parameters of the double-plates and the space within. What is different is that the internal space between the plates is being compressed and “activated” as any other substance under pressure may morph. #Piezo-electricity 😊
I think a better question (and a testable one) is if you bring two conductive plates close enough together for there to be a Casimir effect between them, is the space *behind* the plates affected? To test, bring two conductive plates very close together in a vacuum chamber while having a laser beam shining behind and parallel to one of the plates. If the beam shifts as the plates are brought together within Casimir-effect distance then the space outside is affected.
There's always a Casimir effect between two plates. It's just a question of whether it's large enough to be measurable.
Vacuum welding is real.
it is a form of vdw force at play, the evidence for vacuum fluctuations beeing the cause is dubious at best since it doesmt even have a real derivation unlike the explaination via vdw
do they fall sideways? how about a slight angle so that gravity isn't acting so strongly against one falling uphill.
does it matter how thick the plates are as long as they're conductive? can it be so thin that that reduces the mass enough to make the attractive force proportionately stronger?
if it does "fall up" can one gain energy by letting it fall down again? but...if it wants to fall up how is that different from two magnets snapping together...one upward. it'll take energy to separate the magnets. but would the attraction disappear with the casimir plates when the distance is zero? is there a way to "turn them off"? maybe make them not conductive anymore..like a lightswitch?
How can a vacuum have a positive pressure? Are there different types of actual vacuum?
Wouldn’t we expect them to come together?? Seems like there’s aplenty of possible explanations like gravity, magnetic moments aligning, maybe charges of the plates are generally equal but on smaller scales there are charge patterns or even EM structures. In the surface, it doesn’t seem like external factors would be needed to explain the behaviour.
I will choose the gravity and gravity alone.