I agree. I've been working on keeping my cadence 90-100 and I'm really starting to appreciate the difference between using more muscle and using blood.
Totally agree with you on this, I was a bit sceptic as well when I heard about the self selected cadence from the GCN guys. I reckon people should experiment before determining what is the best cadence for themselves. This implies pushing their limits, trying to get used to a higher cadence by seriously committing to it. Maybe it's true, each of us has his own most efficient cadence, but that must be somewhere between 90 and 110 rpm. Most beginners grind big gears and they will never get out of their comfort zone and try to spin faster if someone doesn't push them into trying that. How do I know? Many people in our club never bothered trying high cadence drills and they grind 70-80 rpm, no matter the speed or the gradient of the road.
Question: in Endurance rides I limit my HR to 150 and at cadence 60-65 I give higher power than at 80-90. High cadence at same power rises the HR and also it feels much more effort on muscle and oxygen systems for me. Can you explain why I should still want to go at 80+ cadence?(p.s. I am riding about 15 years)
@woolychewbakker5277 great reply! Optimal cadence is your natural. For really long rides it's better like +5 rpm, but if you go optimal -5 or -10 you get lowe HR with higher strain on the leg muscles, which also use more glycogen so good carb income needed on longer rides
Thanks for the video. I also watch GCN and was puzzled with their cadence video. I suffer from knee problems caused by pushing big gears years ago. I have managed to increase my cadence to 115 on the flats. I live near the mountains so on long rides with climbs I manage to average around 97. High cadence keeps me healthy and efficient. I have subscribed and look forward to more videos.
The question is whether the explanation given is the correct one. I think there's a bit more involved. For one it looks like he's producing a lot more power at the higher cadances. Try to sit still when you produce the same amount of power at a lower cadance. It's not easy. You will start to push yourself out of the saddle. Clearly the same happens at higher cadances. Secondly: Legs have mass, and therefore inertia. At a high cadance you have to overcome this inertia. Only your feet are rotating nicely, your legs are going back and forth. That's hard work. Trying to bend the leg directly after almost stretching it, at a high cadance, requires a lot of force, and, I will admit, very good muscle coordination. Some of that force cannot be counteracted, it's simply to much, and that makes you bounce. It's like the counterweight, which train wheels used to have, is missing. See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_rod So, yes, coordination play a role, but in the case of high cadance, with high power, the higher forces involved are main reason you start to bounce.
Good explanation. I think part of the problem for MANY of these teaching videos done by MANY different sites is they have forgotten what it was like to be a new cyclist. I have less than 10,000 miles in the saddle since returning to cycling after a 25 yr break. I am still learning on nearly every ride. High cadence pedaling wasn't natural to me. I had to learn it. Pedaling out of the saddle wasn't natural to me. I had to learn it. Fine points of cornering, descending, climbing etc, it all had to be relearned. Sure I could get out of the saddle, but it immediately wore me out because I had forgotten the techniques. Same for high cadence. I had to learn how to balance the forces you are talking about before I could do it efficiently again.
@@Tabletforyou Question: in Endurance rides I limit my HR to 150 and at cadence 60-65 I give higher power than at 80-90. High cadence at same power rises the HR and also it feels much more effort on muscle and oxygen systems for me. Can you explain why I should still want to go at 80+ cadence?(p.s. I am riding about 15 years)
Have you climbed a long 16% gradient uphill (7km) at the end of a 95km race (3rd day) that's mostly uphill? One needs to train specifically super lo cadence high power months for that. So, your high cadence doesn't suit all. Some people can stomp the paddle all day long without injury, while others need 90+rpm to crank out power. The cycling science these days, cadence drills are for recovery/adaptation week these days. To give you 2 exampled. In grand tour you can see lots of riders doing 80rpm or less for 70%-80% of the time. It's when the speed picks up they go into high cadence, like near the end of each stage. Another example, two identical riders with 300w at 60kg. One spins over 95rpm with a heart bpm of 190+ for the entire race, the other rides 80-85rpm and 170bpm. Cadence is totally personal, I hope you understand it. If you have a 300wFTP you don't need to spin over 90 when you ride leisurely in the peloton drafting at 180w. 70-80rpm is enough. A cyclist only needs to spin fast when cranking out power at threshold or higher.
Excellent video. When I first got my first bike 3 years ago, I practiced high cadence from the off. 2 years down the line I noticed I could hold 95 rpm all day, but would fatigue quickly
Bravo! Excellent post. I sort of rediscovered high cadence spinning while trying to reduce the workload on an injured knee. It's become important for me to engage and disengage the quads and hams smoothly and evenly with each crank revolution.The beauty is that I'm now developing more efficient riding habits, which pays dividends for long, consecutive rides. Wish I'd seen this video long ago.
I believe you're correct. Possibly, training up to over 200 rpm is also good for core stabilization and finding the perfect balance and importantly working equal push-pull. push-pull ratio is actually why you bounce, bouncing happens because of over muscular weakness too. Focusing on pulling up will be the fastest why to get your bouncing to stop and to provide it possible to do super high rpm, like 200-250. My fastest outdoor cadence ever was 240 rpm. My fastest trainer cadence was 265. I'm in the belief the majority of people are capable of 200 rpm if they train perfectly, but most people will never even touch 130.
The GCN video I saw simply examined metabolic consequences of different cadences. I don't recall one where they talked about cadence as a wzy to improve technique as you do here. Different issues.
Been thinking abut this lately. Only just got a bike computer on my handlebars so I can actually see what i'm doing. Iv'e increased my average speed a ton by working harder since having this data (going more flat out). Avg speed increased from around 16mph to 19mph on daily work commute. My average cadence is about 75 and max 100. I think I'm gonna aim for 85 today with the view to get this to 90-100 in the near future. Will see how it feels and my speed looks. I think i'm more a fast twitch guy so probably wont come naturally. I should start look a bit better on the bike though.
For obtuse me, the cadence to work on is the one I hate at the time. Work on weaknesses not strengths. Besides that, as mentioned elsewhere, there's something about 90+ that moves the workout to the core, applies to running too(180+steps/min).
You don't start bouncing because your muscle fibres have no time to "disengage", it's simply due to the kinematics of your legs on the pedals. On the down stroke your knee is at about 90° and your thigh is moving down at about the same speed as the pedal. On the upstroke however your knee is at a much sharper angle, the upward speed of the pedal (which is the same as on the downstroke) translates to a much higher speed of the thigh then on the downstroke. Downstroke is a longer but slower movement downwards, the upstroke is a much shorter and faster movement upwards. The bouncing is the result of this excess speed generating a momentum when your thigh is supposed to go down again. With practice you learn to slow your leg more gradually so there is less momentum to kick you upwards, but this takes control and also a lot of energy, which is why really high cadences start being inefficient. The uneven movement of the legs creates an imbalance which gets more pronounced the faster you spin, and you need to use more and more power to stop yourself from bouncing, until there's nothing left for actual propulsion. Most people tend to use too low a cadence, so it's a good thing to teach yourself to use a higher cadence - I feel most comfortable between 100 and 110 on the flat, and can spin up to about 130. Higher cadences will usually give you more power, however this is less sustainable and will wear you out sooner. It is in a way similar to running an engine at high rpm - it will generate more power, but it will also use more fuel. You need to find a cadence appropriate for your needs.
Thanks for your comment. Bouncing on the saddle to do not only with the kinematics, but just as you say, with slowing legs down and that means disengaging muscle fibers. Cheers!
I'm late to the conversation but I must say as a new student to bicycles at 56yrs old, I find this highly informative. I hope you do more videos like this. Peace my friend and keep up the good work!
Thanks. I can agree from my own personal experience as well. After racing at the track for a few years and doing high cadence drills, my road/criterium racing improved. I am now able to deliver power across a wider range of cadence - from 60-140rpms. In races, I can respond quickly to changes in pace and tempo without shifting. I still don't know what is "best" (or if there is one best cadence) but I know it was worthwhile for me to improve my suppleness.
Two remarks/questions: 1. You seemed a little low on your saddle. Your legs were very flexed on the down stroke. Don’t you loose power/efficiency like that? 2. Your feet were always pointing downward. You were “tip toeing”. Shouldn’t you be changing foot angle depending on where your foot is on the stroke? I’m trying to figure out what the best foot angle is for power/efficiency.
Not necessarily, the sort of stress you put on your body with a lower cadance is just different. In a lot of situations you're right but there are also plenty of occasions where it doesn't matter that much
Pros spin at 100rpm because they are producing over 400w. (imagine the strain on their knees, joints, at such power at relatively low cadence such as 80rpm) We mortals at 200-300w, train only 5-6 hrs a week, are very inefficient at such high cadence. Most of the time it is much higher HR at 100rpm, vs much lower at 90, even lower at 80-85, for the same power output. The other thing is what power zone we are talking about. Zone 2 easy spin. As power increases towards FTP so will cadence naturally increase. There is no need to use a high cadence at low zone, it is inefficient.
Im agree with u, especially the word "listening ur body", i'm typical spinner rider & im enjoyed. Some people very proud about gigantic watt power but forget about superb rpm. Which ur body comfort with that? Only u know it, be confidence!
Great advice in my opinion. Best tool on the market to teach a smooth stroke is rollers. Even cheap ones will get the job done. Rollers will encourage the rider to equalize their stroke, as this keeps the bike from surging on the roller with each push of the pedals. Also, it helps one recruit the muscles necessary to make each pedal stroke more efficient. That is where the term "pedaling in circles" comes from. Thanks for the video and I think you are a spot on to call GCN out on this matter. GCN boys rock and always have the top end gear, but all of them can really ride!
The low cadence drills GCN mentions are intended to provide an anaerobic component to a training ride to help build strength as opposed to concentrating exclusively on the aerobic base. I would imagine high cadence drills would increase a riders VO2 max, but one without the other seems shortsighted. There does exist a great deal of confusion as to what "high" cadence actually is, in my opinion; 95 is "high"
Exactly, the low cadence sessions are also great, but without trying to learn how to pedal over 95 RPM our nervous system won't be able to choose the right cadence in all conditions automatically.
excellent. do ou have videos on tires size smoothness and how upgrade a road bike? I am a new rider and don't have the bank for the top end stuff but I really want to get the most out of my bike.
115 RPM isn't bad at all, but if you made some 30 seconds high cadence intervals from time to time, your efficiency will grow. Also, when you make your recovery ride it is good to try to spin nicely, like 95 RPM.
You are right. The brain has to learn every single movement we do. If we never lift our hand higher than our nose, we simply cannot do it no matter how strong we are. Babies learn through random movements and positive feedback. Therefore if we want move a certain way you need to train it.
Bouncing can come about by not having even leg lengths. The atlas on top of the spine needs to be in a neutral position under the opening at the base of the skull. Utilize Upcspine or Upper cervical heath centers for an upper cervical specific only DC Chiropractor. The head does not move when an adjustment takes place. They don't pop the joints. Precise X rays of the neck region are taken.
Unless I'm missing something, I don't think you disagree with GMBN. Self-selecting cadence for the purpose of your best riding at any given time doesn't mean you should always train with your most comfortable cadence. It's kind of like anything else: you train specific things, sometimes in a way you wouldn't perform the movement in your sport for some specific purpose.
Everybody's cadence is different because everybody is different. Cadence is just the speed your legs rotate around the crank but if you look into it from an engineering point of view, the obvious difference is that some people are able to generate more torque than rotational Speed, hence slow cadence and others, the opposite, high speed and low torque and all points inbetween. It is a reflection of the anatomical make up of the rider pure and simple.
Fantastic point actually... Teaching the body to disengage muscle fibres when not necessary... If we were able to accurately measure the amount of energy loss of a 3 hour ride, I am sure we will be shocked!
I think you need to engage whole body power not just leg power for max efficiency. Most people I see sprinting swing the whole bike. When I started pushing/pulling the handle bars opposite of my pedal strokes my bike doesn't seem to swing and I can push my arm, back and leg power into the pedals. If we're talking energy efficiency for endurance I'll ride all day a sedate 50-70rpm vs a few miles at my 90-160rpm max power. Riding a SS seems to give me the best workout as I do both low rpm higher power up hills, and high cadence descents/flats. If I ride gears too long I seem to get lazy and slower.
On my first bike that I had. I had oval chain rings.. I think it was made so, that it could get over dead spots slower? And I think, I was able to pedal much faster with that bike. Than with my new bikes that I have had after that one.. Or maybe it's just because I was much younger and healthier then... about 15 years younger and healthier. Now my pulse goes too high up if I pedal too fast. I recently bought new bicycle computer with cadence sensor. It was the cheapest one, that I could find it's vdo M5. But it was still too expensive. Maybe I was stupid to waste money for it, but I feel it's useful to me.
Early on I came the opposite way, I was spinning way too high for my ability and bouncing. The advice I would get was to slow it down. On easy group rides I tend to average around 85 rpm and on an ftp test I did a month ago I averaged 97 rpm. I lose my form around 110 rpm. I do high cadence HIITs on a regular basis.
That's a rare case. If you bounce, that means you probably don't have a high pedaling efficiency / technique (if your bike fit is right). High cadence drills would be good for you, but when riding or racing we should listen to our body. I average 110 rpm on the FTP test.
i think gcn drop to the lower cadence ie 50 to 60 to build leg power,but they also go up the block so drop from 50 rpm to 110 rpm in one session,i do there 60 minute session once a week,with a 45 minute high rpm session once a week,ie 90 to 100 rpm all the time starting up the block in a 21 dropping down the block every five minutes for 20 minutes,five mins back on a 19 resting and then 5 two minutes intervals in a 16 with a minute rest in a 19 inbetween,then 5 mins warm down in a 50 by 19.
i think you are both right... nevertheless i could spin between 100-150 with no problem (85 rpm if i let my body decide), except for a little window (5-7rpm) that varies accordingly to cog/chainring, where i am bouncing a lot (let's say it's between 107-112rpm, than everything is ok until 150 rpm)... any idea ? i also found out that the way i am pedaling after this window is changing, because i am starting to push forward my foot (from 9 o'clock) , making the "passive" leg more "engaged" in providing power. (compared with "scraping the mud" which is the normal technique for me) .. 2 wheels and a chain should not provide so many nuances, aren't they ?
Yup, that's interesting. Seems like for your legs length (or lengths), crank arm length and the chainrings, there must be some lack of balance between 107-112 RPM, which is rather a normal thing.
There really is no optimal cadence, but natural cadence. When you do 1hr ITT at threshold power, the natural cadence shows. 1 gear up or down you should be struggling. You will also fighting to find that gear which allows you to spin close to your natural cadence. For me, it is 88rpm +- 2 The low cadence drill is popular amongst cyclists. Do it properly, low cadence with zone 3 power for extended period of time, can increase your power, also climbing ability, while increase your tolerance to lactate. That video also suggest 2 more drills, one is sprint (type 2B fast muscle fibers), the other is high cadence.
Yes, we need find the naturel cadence, but it will only be possible, if we know how to ride at higher cadence. Riders who never do over 90rpm will tend to say: my natural cadence is 80rpm.
We don't need to find the natural cadence, it will appear in ITT or threshold effort, or various types of cycling events. A cyclist's avg cadence will not, cannot be the same in crit, TT, century, ironman distance. Another myth is that we need to ride like pros do. 95+rpm. They need to do that because they are pumping out 400w and over, otherwise the strain on their body is too big. Not saying we should ignore cadence drills entirely. Most riders who train consistently smartly (especially those with coaches) have a cadence week in their schedule, most likely easy recovery week to keep cardio in check, as the primary reason. Cadence drills do not increase your FTP, probably the single most important thing why we train.
So to sum up, GCN (former PRO riders) and scientific studies are wrong because a rider who failed to turn pro says he knows better... Ok. Look, if you are presenting opinion based on personal anecdotes then you cant just come out and say people who base their opinions on data are wrong. You can question it, say things like "I think", but to state matter of fact they are wrong just because you say so its idiotic.
For my old bike I used Sheldon Brown's gear ratio calculator, and made a sticker, which tells what speeds I can have on 80 or 90 rpm on each gear. So I just had to watch my speed and then I knew, if I'm above 80rpm or below. My target was above 80rpm.. It's easy and cheap way to know approximate cadence. www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html But on my new bike, the shimano 105 shifters don't have indicator on what gear I am at. Even though I can see the rear sprockets and chain on it. I'm still not sure where I am. I'm not bright enough to know what gear I am at. Just that chain is not too crossed. And also the sticker would get very large if I wanted to put speeds for all gears on it. I would need to use really tiny font, or it would be too large to fit on my bicycle stem.. So I decided to invest into better bicycle computer. And I'm actually satisfied with it. Although I felt like bleeding when I had to buy it. I had to buy some more stuff for my bike, since then it did not feel so bad.. Otherwise when getting just so small things for so much money. It's difficult. lol
I have heard many times, that people rely on all kind of bicycle computers data too much. Becoming unable to listen their own body and even performing worse because of those expensive devices. I tried counting in the way that you described. And as expected, It wasn't so easy, but with some practice I should be able do it. But I already got my 113$ bicycle computer, that includes cadence sensor and also heart rate monitor. So I'm not too motivated of practicing the counting now.. :P I feel a just very little bit embarrassed, that I wasted so much money, when there was actually a doable way to count it. Computer gives more exact reading. And also it shows average and maximum cadence, which I think, can be useful to compare when doing bike fit.. It changes slightly when changing saddle height and fore aft position. ^_^ PS. I have first type diabet and I want to see, how different cadence changes my blood sugar level. Supposedly, with higher cadence, muscles use more fat, and on lower cadence they use more carbs.. I think, that maybe I'm going to test that sometime in future.
Thank you for the info.. I personally like to be very dynamic with my cadence and avg about 80/85 on most rides. I find that rollers help me get used to training for higher pedal cadence.. I do prefer to grind up hills compared to some of my cycling buddies that spin.
I don't agree! I cycle about 1,000 miles a month. I use body weight and gravity on the down stroke; no muscle pressure. I use body torque on the first half of the up stroke then let inertia take over. Body torque involves kicking the pedal upwards and simultaneously pushing the opposite handlebar, creating a rocking motion. Also, posture! When standing, stand up straight! By looking slightly upwards, and keeping the balls of the feet on the pedal and torquing, breathing is so easy. Profile bars and a horizontal poster are a must for ease on the flats.
guys is it bad that my heart rate tend to stay arnd 180 about 50kph? im 16 years old I am trying to increase my ftp but is my asthma affecting my heart rate?
As a 16 years old boy I would also have an average of 180+ HR on races with max HR over 200. If you have asthma and your physician have nothing against your training, try to focus on building up your lungs not only through cycling, but also through breathing exercises and swimming!
I have a problem..… I have trouble getting comfy from 1-85 & 125rpm.. my relaxed cadence is 100 on flats and 10rpm on climbs😂😂.. but that is cause I'm a sprinter, not a climber.…
Cadence is not so simple. The degree of effort, time period, over all fitness and practice all makes a different. Plus you often make slight position changes as you speed cadence and if you are on flats or up hills you sit the bike differently. For me I spin like hell on climbs when I am at my maximum power output and trying not to get dropped. On flats I spin slightly slower but really quickly when time trialing. You want to be a good cyclist you need to practice spinning like hell at max power output for long periods of time you can go from 5 minutes seems so hard too 1-2 hours time trialing like your life depended on it.
Don’t you believe body type plays a role here ? If you weigh 50 kilos and are skinny, spinning is your only weapon. If you are muscular full of fast twitch fibers, low cadence should be more appropriate. All bodies are different. There’s no silver bullet.
SB, I appreciate you are taking the time to make the video. I would like to make a few comments though. 1. GTN is a Global TRIATHLON network. Just as you are mentioning in this very video that mounting biking is different from road biking, I believe we should all agree that triathlon is different as well. Just for the simple reason, that we actually not done after the bike. 2. I didnt really see (in this video) what was the primary reason for high cadence drills? So, I don't bounce in the saddle when I hit a 100rpm? How would that benefit my racing (the ability to sustain hard efforts over prolonged periods of time AND having enough left for a marathon)?
And the scientific evidence? The findings of GCN were based on a study, which makes it more believable, beyond the explanation you give that our body must learn to recruit the muscles responsible for movement in each stroke on the pedal.
cadance makes good for climbing hills but not on flats. not that im a good rider but base on my exprience to. riding uphill with high cadance wont be make me bounce but it make me tired faster. on flats nice combination of right cadance and power will do the trick so that u wont bounce. this is just my experience. and i dont have powermeter that can measure cadance and power. but i can tell it by the thing they called sweetspot
+pedro andrade yes sir i agree. thats what i explain in my comment sir. thats why i agree to you that cadance is most efficient in climbing than flats. cadance in climb. and combination of cadance and power in flats. u agree
I can tell you that high cadence on flats is more power efficient than low cadence. More power is required to spin at lower cadence but same speed then higher cadence at same speed. However, low cadence on flats has a purpose too if you need to accelerate to higher speed its more efficient to use low cadence then switch over gears to higher cadence. Its what my power meter suggests and it tests out true in real world riding.
Nobody - here, the point is not to learn to ride at 130 RPM, but to pedal more efficiently at whatever cadence you like. Also, to increase your comfortable cadence from, say, 80 to 90.
I experienced same bouncing on a saddle, but with much wider amplitude. I lowered my saddle for about 5mm and bouncing decreased. I spent most of time on cadence 90-115. What is your advice for those who bounce because of a lack of muscle speed? How to train that?
i dont know. they were pro, one did finish tdf and one was british champ. anyway i am just a ameture wanna have fun with my bike so i dont actually careXD
High cadence for long efforts, low cadence for short efforts. Low cadence tears muscle fibers. Heels down and saddle back enough to activate glutes. Make circles with your feet but don't pull up unless you're doing a short hard effort or sprinting. You can disagree but you'll be wrong.
I agree. I've been working on keeping my cadence 90-100 and I'm really starting to appreciate the difference between using more muscle and using blood.
Totally agree with you on this, I was a bit sceptic as well when I heard about the self selected cadence from the GCN guys. I reckon people should experiment before determining what is the best cadence for themselves. This implies pushing their limits, trying to get used to a higher cadence by seriously committing to it. Maybe it's true, each of us has his own most efficient cadence, but that must be somewhere between 90 and 110 rpm. Most beginners grind big gears and they will never get out of their comfort zone and try to spin faster if someone doesn't push them into trying that. How do I know? Many people in our club never bothered trying high cadence drills and they grind 70-80 rpm, no matter the speed or the gradient of the road.
Question: in Endurance rides I limit my HR to 150 and at cadence 60-65 I give higher power than at 80-90. High cadence at same power rises the HR and also it feels much more effort on muscle and oxygen systems for me. Can you explain why I should still want to go at 80+ cadence?(p.s. I am riding about 15 years)
@woolychewbakker5277 great reply! Optimal cadence is your natural. For really long rides it's better like +5 rpm, but if you go optimal -5 or -10 you get lowe HR with higher strain on the leg muscles, which also use more glycogen so good carb income needed on longer rides
I love both GCN and SickB, this is like mom and dad not agreeing with each other on how to rise there children. lol
Nice analogy...
their* mom and dad didn't raise you right.
Thanks for the video. I also watch GCN and was puzzled with their cadence video. I suffer from knee problems caused by pushing big gears years ago. I have managed to increase my cadence to 115 on the flats. I live near the mountains so on long rides with climbs I manage to average around 97. High cadence keeps me healthy and efficient. I have subscribed and look forward to more videos.
Thank you. I never knew why I bounced when I try to push the cadence up.
The question is whether the explanation given is the correct one. I think there's a bit more involved. For one it looks like he's producing a lot more power at the higher cadances. Try to sit still when you produce the same amount of power at a lower cadance. It's not easy. You will start to push yourself out of the saddle. Clearly the same happens at higher cadances. Secondly: Legs have mass, and therefore inertia. At a high cadance you have to overcome this inertia. Only your feet are rotating nicely, your legs are going back and forth. That's hard work. Trying to bend the leg directly after almost stretching it, at a high cadance, requires a lot of force, and, I will admit, very good muscle coordination. Some of that force cannot be counteracted, it's simply to much, and that makes you bounce. It's like the counterweight, which train wheels used to have, is missing. See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_rod So, yes, coordination play a role, but in the case of high cadance, with high power, the higher forces involved are main reason you start to bounce.
Good explanation. I think part of the problem for MANY of these teaching videos done by MANY different sites is they have forgotten what it was like to be a new cyclist. I have less than 10,000 miles in the saddle since returning to cycling after a 25 yr break. I am still learning on nearly every ride. High cadence pedaling wasn't natural to me. I had to learn it. Pedaling out of the saddle wasn't natural to me. I had to learn it. Fine points of cornering, descending, climbing etc, it all had to be relearned. Sure I could get out of the saddle, but it immediately wore me out because I had forgotten the techniques. Same for high cadence. I had to learn how to balance the forces you are talking about before I could do it efficiently again.
@@Tabletforyou Question: in Endurance rides I limit my HR to 150 and at cadence 60-65 I give higher power than at 80-90. High cadence at same power rises the HR and also it feels much more effort on muscle and oxygen systems for me. Can you explain why I should still want to go at 80+ cadence?(p.s. I am riding about 15 years)
Have you climbed a long 16% gradient uphill (7km) at the end of a 95km race (3rd day) that's mostly uphill? One needs to train specifically super lo cadence high power months for that. So, your high cadence doesn't suit all. Some people can stomp the paddle all day long without injury, while others need 90+rpm to crank out power.
The cycling science these days, cadence drills are for recovery/adaptation week these days.
To give you 2 exampled. In grand tour you can see lots of riders doing 80rpm or less for 70%-80% of the time. It's when the speed picks up they go into high cadence, like near the end of each stage.
Another example, two identical riders with 300w at 60kg. One spins over 95rpm with a heart bpm of 190+ for the entire race, the other rides 80-85rpm and 170bpm.
Cadence is totally personal, I hope you understand it. If you have a 300wFTP you don't need to spin over 90 when you ride leisurely in the peloton drafting at 180w. 70-80rpm is enough.
A cyclist only needs to spin fast when cranking out power at threshold or higher.
Excellent video. When I first got my first bike 3 years ago, I practiced high cadence from the off. 2 years down the line I noticed I could hold 95 rpm all day, but would fatigue quickly
Bravo! Excellent post. I sort of rediscovered high cadence spinning while trying to reduce the workload on an injured knee. It's become important for me to engage and disengage the quads and hams smoothly and evenly with each crank revolution.The beauty is that I'm now developing more efficient riding habits, which pays dividends for long, consecutive rides. Wish I'd seen this video long ago.
core also factors in high cadence
I believe you're correct. Possibly, training up to over 200 rpm is also good for core stabilization and finding the perfect balance and importantly working equal push-pull. push-pull ratio is actually why you bounce, bouncing happens because of over muscular weakness too. Focusing on pulling up will be the fastest why to get your bouncing to stop and to provide it possible to do super high rpm, like 200-250. My fastest outdoor cadence ever was 240 rpm. My fastest trainer cadence was 265. I'm in the belief the majority of people are capable of 200 rpm if they train perfectly, but most people will never even touch 130.
Thanks for sharing!
The GCN video I saw simply examined metabolic consequences of different cadences. I don't recall one where they talked about cadence as a wzy to improve technique as you do here. Different issues.
Been thinking abut this lately. Only just got a bike computer on my handlebars so I can actually see what i'm doing. Iv'e increased my average speed a ton by working harder since having this data (going more flat out). Avg speed increased from around 16mph to 19mph on daily work commute. My average cadence is about 75 and max 100. I think I'm gonna aim for 85 today with the view to get this to 90-100 in the near future. Will see how it feels and my speed looks. I think i'm more a fast twitch guy so probably wont come naturally. I should start look a bit better on the bike though.
For obtuse me, the cadence to work on is the one I hate at the time. Work on weaknesses not strengths. Besides that, as mentioned elsewhere, there's something about 90+ that moves the workout to the core, applies to running too(180+steps/min).
You don't start bouncing because your muscle fibres have no time to "disengage", it's simply due to the kinematics of your legs on the pedals. On the down stroke your knee is at about 90° and your thigh is moving down at about the same speed as the pedal. On the upstroke however your knee is at a much sharper angle, the upward speed of the pedal (which is the same as on the downstroke) translates to a much higher speed of the thigh then on the downstroke. Downstroke is a longer but slower movement downwards, the upstroke is a much shorter and faster movement upwards. The bouncing is the result of this excess speed generating a momentum when your thigh is supposed to go down again. With practice you learn to slow your leg more gradually so there is less momentum to kick you upwards, but this takes control and also a lot of energy, which is why really high cadences start being inefficient. The uneven movement of the legs creates an imbalance which gets more pronounced the faster you spin, and you need to use more and more power to stop yourself from bouncing, until there's nothing left for actual propulsion.
Most people tend to use too low a cadence, so it's a good thing to teach yourself to use a higher cadence - I feel most comfortable between 100 and 110 on the flat, and can spin up to about 130. Higher cadences will usually give you more power, however this is less sustainable and will wear you out sooner. It is in a way similar to running an engine at high rpm - it will generate more power, but it will also use more fuel. You need to find a cadence appropriate for your needs.
Thanks for your comment. Bouncing on the saddle to do not only with the kinematics, but just as you say, with slowing legs down and that means disengaging muscle fibers. Cheers!
I'm late to the conversation but I must say as a new student to bicycles at 56yrs old, I find this highly informative. I hope you do more videos like this. Peace my friend and keep up the good work!
Thanks.
I can agree from my own personal experience as well. After racing at the track for a few years and doing high cadence drills, my road/criterium racing improved. I am now able to deliver power across a wider range of cadence - from 60-140rpms. In races, I can respond quickly to changes in pace and tempo without shifting. I still don't know what is "best" (or if there is one best cadence) but I know it was worthwhile for me to improve my suppleness.
Correct. I saw the GCN pedalling tutorial and 100% agree that good as most of their tutorials are, they didn't get that one right. This is bang on!
Two remarks/questions:
1. You seemed a little low on your saddle. Your legs were very flexed on the down stroke. Don’t you loose power/efficiency like that?
2. Your feet were always pointing downward. You were “tip toeing”. Shouldn’t you be changing foot angle depending on where your foot is on the stroke?
I’m trying to figure out what the best foot angle is for power/efficiency.
Rule of thumb for road biking. If your not spinning your not winning.
If you don't know the difference between "your" and "you're," you're losing.
Go watch peter weening.
Not necessarily, the sort of stress you put on your body with a lower cadance is just different. In a lot of situations you're right but there are also plenty of occasions where it doesn't matter that much
I am certainly a hobbiest but Ive always been told "Spin to win"
Pros spin at 100rpm because they are producing over 400w. (imagine the strain on their knees, joints, at such power at relatively low cadence such as 80rpm) We mortals at 200-300w, train only 5-6 hrs a week, are very inefficient at such high cadence. Most of the time it is much higher HR at 100rpm, vs much lower at 90, even lower at 80-85, for the same power output.
The other thing is what power zone we are talking about. Zone 2 easy spin. As power increases towards FTP so will cadence naturally increase. There is no need to use a high cadence at low zone, it is inefficient.
What is the advantage of such high cadences?
Im agree with u, especially the word "listening ur body", i'm typical spinner rider & im enjoyed. Some people very proud about gigantic watt power but forget about superb rpm. Which ur body comfort with that? Only u know it, be confidence!
Great advice in my opinion. Best tool on the market to teach a smooth stroke is rollers. Even cheap ones will get the job done. Rollers will encourage the rider to equalize their stroke, as this keeps the bike from surging on the roller with each push of the pedals. Also, it helps one recruit the muscles necessary to make each pedal stroke more efficient. That is where the term "pedaling in circles" comes from. Thanks for the video and I think you are a spot on to call GCN out on this matter. GCN boys rock and always have the top end gear, but all of them can really ride!
high cadence should be done in soft gears or hard ones?
The low cadence drills GCN mentions are intended to provide an anaerobic component to a training ride to help build strength as opposed to concentrating exclusively on the aerobic base. I would imagine high cadence drills would increase a riders VO2 max, but one without the other seems shortsighted. There does exist a great deal of confusion as to what "high" cadence actually is, in my opinion; 95 is "high"
Exactly, the low cadence sessions are also great, but without trying to learn how to pedal over 95 RPM our nervous system won't be able to choose the right cadence in all conditions automatically.
excellent. do ou have videos on tires size smoothness and how upgrade a road bike? I am a new rider and don't have the bank for the top end stuff but I really want to get the most out of my bike.
just tried this. got up to around 115 before I started bobbing up and down. Any tips on training to increase my limit?
115 RPM isn't bad at all, but if you made some 30 seconds high cadence intervals from time to time, your efficiency will grow. Also, when you make your recovery ride it is good to try to spin nicely, like 95 RPM.
get a dog chasing you
You are right. The brain has to learn every single movement we do. If we never lift our hand higher than our nose, we simply cannot do it no matter how strong we are. Babies learn through random movements and positive feedback.
Therefore if we want move a certain way you need to train it.
pedal rpm is in first place related by your speed : if i climb at 5km/h it will be below 60rpm, if i drive 36km/h it will be over 80rpm for same power
Bouncing can come about by not having even leg lengths. The atlas on top of the spine needs to be in a neutral position under the opening at the base of the skull. Utilize Upcspine or Upper cervical heath centers for an upper cervical specific only DC Chiropractor. The head does not move when an adjustment takes place. They don't pop the joints. Precise X rays of the neck region are taken.
Unless I'm missing something, I don't think you disagree with GMBN. Self-selecting cadence for the purpose of your best riding at any given time doesn't mean you should always train with your most comfortable cadence. It's kind of like anything else: you train specific things, sometimes in a way you wouldn't perform the movement in your sport for some specific purpose.
Everybody's cadence is different because everybody is different. Cadence is just the speed your legs rotate around the crank but if you look into it from an engineering point of view, the obvious difference is that some people are able to generate more torque than rotational Speed, hence slow cadence and others, the opposite, high speed and low torque and all points inbetween. It is a reflection of the anatomical make up of the rider pure and simple.
I have never thought of it in this way. Great video tutorial.
Top channel, I enjoy listening to your knowledge Dany :) Cheers, from the land down under.
Thanks so much! Czech Republic?
Close, Australia :))
Oh, much under... You've got great places for cycling out there! Cheers!
Cgn's video just showed a case study and presented the numeric results. Don't think they are suggesting people to not do any high cadence training.
Fantastic point actually... Teaching the body to disengage muscle fibres when not necessary... If we were able to accurately measure the amount of energy loss of a 3 hour ride, I am sure we will be shocked!
I think you need to engage whole body power not just leg power for max efficiency. Most people I see sprinting swing the whole bike. When I started pushing/pulling the handle bars opposite of my pedal strokes my bike doesn't seem to swing and I can push my arm, back and leg power into the pedals. If we're talking energy efficiency for endurance I'll ride all day a sedate 50-70rpm vs a few miles at my 90-160rpm max power. Riding a SS seems to give me the best workout as I do both low rpm higher power up hills, and high cadence descents/flats. If I ride gears too long I seem to get lazy and slower.
On my first bike that I had. I had oval chain rings.. I think it was made so, that it could get over dead spots slower? And I think, I was able to pedal much faster with that bike. Than with my new bikes that I have had after that one.. Or maybe it's just because I was much younger and healthier then... about 15 years younger and healthier. Now my pulse goes too high up if I pedal too fast.
I recently bought new bicycle computer with cadence sensor. It was the cheapest one, that I could find it's vdo M5. But it was still too expensive. Maybe I was stupid to waste money for it, but I feel it's useful to me.
Early on I came the opposite way, I was spinning way too high for my ability and bouncing. The advice I would get was to slow it down. On easy group rides I tend to average around 85 rpm and on an ftp test I did a month ago I averaged 97 rpm. I lose my form around 110 rpm.
I do high cadence HIITs on a regular basis.
That's a rare case. If you bounce, that means you probably don't have a high pedaling efficiency / technique (if your bike fit is right). High cadence drills would be good for you, but when riding or racing we should listen to our body. I average 110 rpm on the FTP test.
wisskier I can keep 140 for 1 min
hi ..Im a recreational cyclist.I do an average of 80-90 miles a week if weather permits .I live in hilly terrain.Do i need a cadence sensor?
That's exactly what happens when I try to go faster in traffic on my daily commute, so how to fix this, you didn't say.
Love to hear tht tyre sing!
Just found your channel. Very good info. Subscribed!
I'm happy to see that :)
SickBiker nice one
i think gcn drop to the lower cadence ie 50 to 60 to build leg power,but they also go up the block so drop from 50 rpm to 110 rpm in one session,i do there 60 minute session once a week,with a 45 minute high rpm session once a week,ie 90 to 100 rpm all the time starting up the block in a 21 dropping down the block every five minutes for 20 minutes,five mins back on a 19 resting and then 5 two minutes intervals in a 16 with a minute rest in a 19 inbetween,then 5 mins warm down in a 50 by 19.
Excellent video and explanation! Thank you so much!
when you are grinding in big gear and low cadence that burn in your quadriceps, is that lactic acid??
It can be both the lactic acid AND the muscle fibers being damaged (normal during exercise).
excellent answer !
i think you are both right... nevertheless i could spin between 100-150 with no problem (85 rpm if i let my body decide), except for a little window (5-7rpm) that varies accordingly to cog/chainring, where i am bouncing a lot (let's say it's between 107-112rpm, than everything is ok until 150 rpm)... any idea ?
i also found out that the way i am pedaling after this window is changing, because i am starting to push forward my foot (from 9 o'clock) , making the "passive" leg more "engaged" in providing power. (compared with "scraping the mud" which is the normal technique for me) ..
2 wheels and a chain should not provide so many nuances, aren't they ?
Yup, that's interesting. Seems like for your legs length (or lengths), crank arm length and the chainrings, there must be some lack of balance between 107-112 RPM, which is rather a normal thing.
mda, due to a knee problem, my left cleat is 4 mm backward, making my leg "longer"... i have to investigate that... thank you.
Very good article, well thought out and presented.
Thanks!
Kamol Hengkiatisak just what i wanted to say about it :)
There really is no optimal cadence, but natural cadence. When you do 1hr ITT at threshold power, the natural cadence shows. 1 gear up or down you should be struggling. You will also fighting to find that gear which allows you to spin close to your natural cadence. For me, it is 88rpm +- 2
The low cadence drill is popular amongst cyclists. Do it properly, low cadence with zone 3 power for extended period of time, can increase your power, also climbing ability, while increase your tolerance to lactate.
That video also suggest 2 more drills, one is sprint (type 2B fast muscle fibers), the other is high cadence.
Yes, we need find the naturel cadence, but it will only be possible, if we know how to ride at higher cadence. Riders who never do over 90rpm will tend to say: my natural cadence is 80rpm.
We don't need to find the natural cadence, it will appear in ITT or threshold effort, or various types of cycling events. A cyclist's avg cadence will not, cannot be the same in crit, TT, century, ironman distance.
Another myth is that we need to ride like pros do. 95+rpm. They need to do that because they are pumping out 400w and over, otherwise the strain on their body is too big.
Not saying we should ignore cadence drills entirely. Most riders who train consistently smartly (especially those with coaches) have a cadence week in their schedule, most likely easy recovery week to keep cardio in check, as the primary reason. Cadence drills do not increase your FTP, probably the single most important thing why we train.
Great video! Looking lean and fit man. I think you should discuss weight loss and diet on your upcoming videos! Cheers.
So to sum up, GCN (former PRO riders) and scientific studies are wrong because a rider who failed to turn pro says he knows better... Ok. Look, if you are presenting opinion based on personal anecdotes then you cant just come out and say people who base their opinions on data are wrong. You can question it, say things like "I think", but to state matter of fact they are wrong just because you say so its idiotic.
Nathan Brown I was thinking exactly the same....
I totally agree with you. You got it.
Love both SickB and GCN
Very good info for all new riders
what bike are you ridding, btw?
am i the one ur asking sir. for me im riding roadbike and only have one bike cheap coz cant afford high end bikes
But how fast can you pedal one legged? Cadence?
For my old bike I used Sheldon Brown's gear ratio calculator, and made a sticker, which tells what speeds I can have on 80 or 90 rpm on each gear. So I just had to watch my speed and then I knew, if I'm above 80rpm or below. My target was above 80rpm.. It's easy and cheap way to know approximate cadence.
www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html
But on my new bike, the shimano 105 shifters don't have indicator on what gear I am at. Even though I can see the rear sprockets and chain on it. I'm still not sure where I am. I'm not bright enough to know what gear I am at. Just that chain is not too crossed. And also the sticker would get very large if I wanted to put speeds for all gears on it. I would need to use really tiny font, or it would be too large to fit on my bicycle stem.. So I decided to invest into better bicycle computer. And I'm actually satisfied with it. Although I felt like bleeding when I had to buy it. I had to buy some more stuff for my bike, since then it did not feel so bad.. Otherwise when getting just so small things for so much money. It's difficult. lol
Great website!
Or you can get a watch, and count. Three feet-downs per second is 90 rpm (left-right-left.)
how do you count 2.7 feet-downs per second, though?
90 rpm is goal. 60 is one-2, of course if you've got $160, go buy a great computer. If you have $6, buy a watch. 120 is four. 150 is 5.
I have heard many times, that people rely on all kind of bicycle computers data too much. Becoming unable to listen their own body and even performing worse because of those expensive devices.
I tried counting in the way that you described. And as expected, It wasn't so easy, but with some practice I should be able do it.
But I already got my 113$ bicycle computer, that includes cadence sensor and also heart rate monitor. So I'm not too motivated of practicing the counting now.. :P
I feel a just very little bit embarrassed, that I wasted so much money, when there was actually a doable way to count it.
Computer gives more exact reading. And also it shows average and maximum cadence, which I think, can be useful to compare when doing bike fit.. It changes slightly when changing saddle height and fore aft position. ^_^
PS. I have first type diabet and I want to see, how different cadence changes my blood sugar level. Supposedly, with higher cadence, muscles use more fat, and on lower cadence they use more carbs.. I think, that maybe I'm going to test that sometime in future.
You're right no questions here.
Behind Car Intervals? have you heard of them? Usualy clubs train muscle functionality that way.
I sometimes do those myself, but that's mostly for my speed.
There's no better coach in the world like Graeme Street, pedaling is all about muscular endurance and neuro muscular stuffs.
Also Froome is Kenyan.
Thank you for the info.. I personally like to be very dynamic with my cadence and avg about 80/85 on most rides. I find that rollers help me get used to training for higher pedal cadence..
I do prefer to grind up hills compared to some of my cycling buddies that spin.
Shortening the crank's arm length could help with the bouncing issues
I don't agree! I cycle about 1,000 miles a month. I use body weight and gravity on the down stroke; no muscle pressure. I use body torque on the first half of the up stroke then let inertia take over. Body torque involves kicking the pedal upwards and simultaneously pushing the opposite handlebar, creating a rocking motion. Also, posture! When standing, stand up straight! By looking slightly upwards, and keeping the balls of the feet on the pedal and torquing, breathing is so easy. Profile bars and a horizontal poster are a must for ease on the flats.
Cannon Danny. I just subscribed. just found your channel
That's great, stay tuned!
Excellent points
guys is it bad that my heart rate tend to stay arnd 180 about 50kph? im 16 years old I am trying to increase my ftp but is my asthma affecting my heart rate?
Not at all! I'm 16 too and last week I did a race with a max hr of 205 and average of 183.
+Cool Dog oh okok thanks alot bro trying to figure out if theres anything wrong with my heart rate being that high hahahahah .Ride safe
As a 16 years old boy I would also have an average of 180+ HR on races with max HR over 200. If you have asthma and your physician have nothing against your training, try to focus on building up your lungs not only through cycling, but also through breathing exercises and swimming!
I tried swimming and damn that was a a pain in the ass i gotta say 😂😂😂
cannondany I tried swimming and damn that was a a pain in the ass i gotta say cant even last 2 laps in the pool.😂😂😂
I have a problem..… I have trouble getting comfy from 1-85 & 125rpm.. my relaxed cadence is 100 on flats and 10rpm on climbs😂😂.. but that is cause I'm a sprinter, not a climber.…
Thank you
Cadence is not so simple. The degree of effort, time period, over all fitness and practice all makes a different. Plus you often make slight position changes as you speed cadence and if you are on flats or up hills you sit the bike differently. For me I spin like hell on climbs when I am at my maximum power output and trying not to get dropped. On flats I spin slightly slower but really quickly when time trialing. You want to be a good cyclist you need to practice spinning like hell at max power output for long periods of time you can go from 5 minutes seems so hard too 1-2 hours time trialing like your life depended on it.
Excellent!
Biomechanics 101, Muscle fibers don't push, ever!
well explained, thanks!
Don’t you believe body type plays a role here ? If you weigh 50 kilos and are skinny, spinning is your only weapon. If you are muscular full of fast twitch fibers, low cadence should be more appropriate. All bodies are different. There’s no silver bullet.
SB, I appreciate you are taking the time to make the video. I would like to make a few comments though. 1. GTN is a Global TRIATHLON network. Just as you are mentioning in this very video that mounting biking is different from road biking, I believe we should all agree that triathlon is different as well. Just for the simple reason, that we actually not done after the bike. 2. I didnt really see (in this video) what was the primary reason for high cadence drills? So, I don't bounce in the saddle when I hit a 100rpm? How would that benefit my racing (the ability to sustain hard efforts over prolonged periods of time AND having enough left for a marathon)?
And the scientific evidence? The findings of GCN were based on a study, which makes it more believable, beyond the explanation you give that our body must learn to recruit the muscles responsible for movement in each stroke on the pedal.
leojonardo his findings are based on his lifelong study. I don't see any lack of credibility.
leojonardo n=1 is not a scientific study...
great info
Very good video
cadance makes good for climbing hills but not on flats. not that im a good rider but base on my exprience to. riding uphill with high cadance wont be make me bounce but it make me tired faster. on flats nice combination of right cadance and power will do the trick so that u wont bounce.
this is just my experience. and i dont have powermeter that can measure cadance and power. but i can tell it by the thing they called sweetspot
cadence uphill wins tours. ask froome and Wiggins. they spin like mofos. contador grinds like a bitch, looses tours.
spinning is winning.
+pedro andrade thats my point. ryt
renz domondon cadence wins tours. uphills and flats, man..
+pedro andrade yes sir i agree. thats what i explain in my comment sir. thats why i agree to you that cadance is most efficient in climbing than flats. cadance in climb. and combination of cadance and power in flats. u agree
I can tell you that high cadence on flats is more power efficient than low cadence. More power is required to spin at lower cadence but same speed then higher cadence at same speed. However, low cadence on flats has a purpose too if you need to accelerate to higher speed its more efficient to use low cadence then switch over gears to higher cadence. Its what my power meter suggests and it tests out true in real world riding.
no way i can pedal that fast D:
spinnings4winning : -] many thanks i agree...
That's right!
Oh my knees !
dziekuje!
who keeps a 130 rpm for more than 2 mins in real life? honest question tho..
Nobody - here, the point is not to learn to ride at 130 RPM, but to pedal more efficiently at whatever cadence you like. Also, to increase your comfortable cadence from, say, 80 to 90.
Good video
So good
maybe
I experienced same bouncing on a saddle, but with much wider amplitude. I lowered my saddle for about 5mm and bouncing decreased. I spent most of time on cadence 90-115.
What is your advice for those who bounce because of a lack of muscle speed? How to train that?
i dont know. they were pro, one did finish tdf and one was british champ.
anyway i am just a ameture wanna have fun with my bike so i dont actually careXD
Wow really? i didn't know that? I know Matt is a national champ, but who finished tdf may i ask?
Thanks in advance
Jimie Chou dan the ex-cervelo test team lloyd
good
High cadence for long efforts, low cadence for short efforts. Low cadence tears muscle fibers. Heels down and saddle back enough to activate glutes. Make circles with your feet but don't pull up unless you're doing a short hard effort or sprinting. You can disagree but you'll be wrong.
Did you steal those bikes?
ruclips.net/video/L_fR8CNAfrQ/видео.html You just proved why you shouldn't have too high cadence...
not just your brain but inertia too
totally disagree with your synopsis.
have my dislike
I stopped watching because I couldn't understand you.