You can read about this in detail in my free book called “The Sourdough Framework”. You can get it here: breadco.de/book. You can support the project with a donation, but there is absolutely no knead. I believe information like this should be free and accessible to everyone. The book is made for everyone who wants to understand the important details when making sourdough bread. Thank you!
I bake sourdough with a mix of flours (bread, rye, whole wheat, semolina) every week and always with my stand mixer because of arthritis in my hands. Keep the mixer at the lower speeds, use only the hook. I never go to high speed because it heats up the dough too much. Once the dough comes away clean from the sides I mix for another 1-2 minutes and it turns out great every time.
Thank you for the clear comparison and all of the time you spent to illustrate this process. Its quite different when you see the results side by side.
Hendrik, for your next experiment, I would be interested if you can add flour (and how much) to overfermented dough and get a good dough strength back and save your bread, so to speak.
Hi. You can not save a bread thats overfermented, because it will act like a sourdough or starter, you would need a lot of new dough. But there are a few nice videos of 'pain de campagne' they use 10% sourdough and 10% pâte fermentée. So put it in your fridge and use it step by step in your future breads, it will give huge flavours and and other benefits to your bread dough
When i knead the dough so long, I usually place it in the fridge every 10 minutes. And now it's really hot in my place, around 34-35°C, so I use cold water (around 4-5°C). Thank you for your videos!
if you knead at lower speeds with a stand mixer the dough doesn't heat up (that much/at all if using the speed the manufacturer of the mixer tells you to use: 1 - 2), the kneading takes a little longer, but the bread is consistent, even if you forget about the mixer and let it knead for an hour too much (was not an experiment, but a mistake by me)
@@eswing2153 yeah. put everything in the standmixer, set a timer, went back to just check my mails in the other room and listen a bit to music - and forgot (and overheard th timer) completely.
I just realized that I never heard about the "base temperature" in not french bread video... This concept is very important for professionals. The goal is to have the good temperature at the end of the kneading.The rule is quite easy. The base temperature is the sum of the temperature of the room, the flour and the water. (Strange mathematics!) If your base temperature is 55°C, your room is at 21°C and your flour at 20°C you need a water at 14°C (21+20+14=55). You have to adjust the base temperature with what you do and how (depending of the machine, the type of kneading) Normally at the end the dough should be more or less at the same temperature.
This is great . . . I learned all this 10 years ago and then I quit making bread and lost my instructions so this is bringing it all back and no one else (that RUclips is promoting on searches) is explaining any of this. I'm taking notes so I can get started tomorrow. Even if you don't do it this way you should know all about it.
When I had less idea than now about what I was doing, I was tired of getting flat breads, so I improvised and lowed the water percentage (I believe from 70 to 60%) and kneaded with a KitchenAid, at medium speed, for around 4 hours. Those where my first nice looking breads, incredible ears and oven spring. But after I did that I read about overkneading and I decreased the kneading time to around 20 minutes, but adding a couple of stretches. It works for me.
@@aidaiamanova578 I wish I could be more specific but not so long ago I read in a magazine about a new local premium bakery and I remember it mentioned they knead two times over a hour, don't remember exactly. I guess at least when you have the proper flour and recipe, overkneading isn't really an issue :)
I only recently learned how much heat a mixer (or kneading in general) can impart into the dough. Your video seems to confirm what I assumed was happening to some of my breads. I have started using cooler water and will continue to do so.
I think, most Professional bakers machine-knead sourdough on much slower speeds, say about 2 or possibly 3, depending on your machine. I can briskly mix 72F flour and water(about 22C)with a Danish dough whisk, and when I measure the dough temperature, it is usually a couple degrees warmer in F.
I would love to see more videos about how to make whole wheat bread it doesn't necessarily have to be 100% whole wheat but at least 50/50. There aren't very many videos about that on RUclips and I would really like to get away from the white flower but still have the same type of fluffy airy bread
Thanks so much for this. I recently got the same mixer and trying to learn about how to best use it for bread. What speed(s) would you use for typical 60-70% hydration dough? Thnx
Thank you. This is a great help as even though I love love love making sourdough bread by hand, I now need to buy a stand mixer to take over much of the labour. Some dough hooks are coated with teflon. Will teflon cause any issues with the sourdough?
I leave it in my stand mixer until it lick the bowl clean. I may add a few TSP of flour until it licks the bowl clean. I then do a window pane test. If it passes this test I dump it out on my bread board, knead it for a few minutes and dump it in a bowl for the first rise. Covered, of course.
Funny I saw this new video tonight. Earlier today I placed my post-autolayse dough in my stand mixer for 15 minutes on low but then I walked away and forgot about it. I came back into the kitchen 2hours later and pulled it off to bulk ferment. I’m lazy and I don’t do any stretch and folds and just ferment in the bowl. After about 3 hours, the dough passed the windowpane test and was ready to shape. Baked after my second rise and I still got good oven spring! I thought I ruined it but it turned out just fine. I haven’t cut it open yet but it’s got a nice shape. I think the trick is the slow knead and not using the high levels in the stand mixer. On another note, I appreciate you showing what over fermentation looks like. I used to follow an overnight bulk ferment recipe and I could never figure out why I couldn’t shape like the video. One of your other videos talking about over fermentation and your timing chart really changed my results. Thanks!
A lot of great information. I will have to experiment. I have just started using my kitchen aid for kneading. I am very mindful of the time so this makes sense. I still do folds and all the other stuff…but my bread is turning out great.
You would have to heat the dough up enough to the temperature that would kill the yeast..which is why it did not increase in size that one time..and the other one had a decrease in activity because some of the yeast died from overheat but not all of it
Hand mixing or KitchenAid mixer It’s probably impossible to over mix But a European designed dough mixer can easily destroy your mix You can tell when it starts to get silky smooth it’s time to stop With a good,mixer you can easily destroyer your mix I’m sure you can. I’ve done it it was not very hard An extra five minutes too long it’s finished Your dough is more like syrup
This is great testing thankyou :) I still wonder about low hydration doughs... say down to 60%... perhaps high hydration prevents damage to the proteins by lubricating the mixture? Harder to test though... my mixer probably isn't capable of kneading anything lower than 70% hydration anyway. And it would probably come down to overheating as the main problem rather than actual chemical damage to the gluten structure?
Wow! Great show. I also noticed how much whiter the bread is from the long-kneaded dough. According to Modernist Bread it is due to oxidation introduced by the additional mixing. Do you notice a taste difference in the side by side? MB suggests it is less desirable but I've never done the test. How about a triangle taste test for a video?
Wonderful 👍... My observation here is the process. Your process actually suggest a great solution. Here in Nigeria, the process is quite different from yours and ours certainly does over mix once it exceeds 15 minutes mix as a result of the process use in mixing it. I have learnt a better process from your video, would try it out! 👍
Hendrik - I've tried this twice and both times my dough is too runny and sticky so that all I can do is put it in a loaf tin. I kneaded fro 30 minutes (10 mins on, 10 mins break etc) I'm using regular starter, so went for 20% as you suggested. Last attempt I used 350g bread flour and 150g wholemeal flour. Both have approx 11% protein. Any suggestions as I"d like to make a nice boule but I just can't shape it.
Dude, you are awesome! haha nice. I want to try at home if I can make sourdough without vapor. Let me explain: instead of using a dutch oven, trying to use some oil (olive maybe) at the surface of the dough. If you want to test, it would be interesting.
Thank you for the video. Sorry if the answer to my question may be obvious, would the dough rise at the same rate as the small sample you took out? If so, that would be a great trick to figure out when your dough has doubled in size...something I'm always having issues with!
This was an awesome video! I have a question. Do you remove the loaves from the refrigerator and place them directly in the oven, or do you set them aside and let them sit for a while before you bake them? Also…when you said you baked them with steam for a period of time, then continued with no steam…does your oven produce the steam, or are you adding the steam by spraying water?
This is a great video, and I was really intrigued by how you're measuring the pH level of the dough to check if it's overkneaded. I'm an avid (though amateur) pizza maker, and I often struggle with overkneading my dough in the stand mixer. I was wondering if the pH level should ideally fall between 5.0 and 6.0. By taking this measurement, can I prevent overkneading? Thank you!
Very interesting finding that temperature matters more than kneading time. Would have been cool to actually measure and compare dough temp. For pizza, it's a common advice to stop mixing at 25°C in order not to damage the dough. Sometimes you'll start with ice water in order not to exceed that temp. So, next experiment: Same mixing time, but different target temp? 20°C, 25°C, 30°C? :)
Actually, that's kinda common for baking in general. At least in any semi-professional environment. At least when we are talking about (mostly) pure wheat, spelt or any such grain based good. Different rules apply for different grains and when you mix them. Anyway. Gluten is a protein. Proteins are very heat sensitive. Pasta to hot, when you apply the egg mixture for carbonara? The egg (Proten!) will clot, the sauce is ruined. Same thing happens with Gluten. In my bakery I fucking pray to never exceed around 25, 26 at the very max Celsius. Otherwise the entire batch is fucked. Beyond repair. This is a problem in Summer. I can not work without ice. I put Milk in the freezer for sweet breads and cakes. The reason you may or may not notice it that much, is because I use organic flour from our own fields. Most flour you buy already has additives, even many organic ones. And the grain itself of course; some are more sensitive then others, every single batch of grain is completely different. That at least is not TO big of an issue when you buy flour; the mill usually mixes XYZ different grain batches to give you a flour that has roughly the same properties. What you can buy anywhere else is probably more heat resistive. However, that doesn't mean it would be in any scenario good to exceed such temperatures. And no I do NOT use warm water or milk in ANY recipe. There are only types of people who do that. A: Those who have no fucking Idea what they are doing. And those who are bloody geniouses, that MARTICOLOUSLY crafted a recipe with hot and cold ingredients and times, that somehow end up at just the right temp. Trust me when I say however, that I have not seen a single such genius on RUclips and such. But LMAO kneeding times mattes. Oh it does. Differnce is lust that you can wipe your ass off with times provided in recipes. Any flour is different. Any machine is differnt. And even ever hand kneeds different. Same dough in machine A can take 5 minutes in my professional machine, 15 minutes in my kitchen appliance and 20 Minutes per hand. And with a diffent flour this could mean 8, 20 and 25 Minutes. For "wetter" doughs, say starting at around the 65%ish hydration mark and long-er bulk proofs, you absolutely can get away with less kneeding times. Stretch and folds. Does magic. When I see a dough rising in temp while kneeding and it is such a dough, I'll just stop underkneeded. A few stretches and folds and a night in the fridge, you won't see a noticeable difference. In fact, many if not most "hand kneeders" underknead, which isn't a huge issue for most bread recipes. However, if we are talking about lower hydration doughs... Oh f me. For many specialities, many forms of breadrolls, pretzels, whatever, you need low hydration. Stretch and fold will not work well. Worse, those doughs are usually meant to be worked within 30-60 MInutes. No, this is not to short, you do NOT want your dough to conciderably pop for such things. Don't kneed such a dough properly, it'll turn out shit. Wasn't that video about overkneeding? Well, you FUCKING CAN. Regardless of temperature. High temperature will make it worse, but you can fucking ruin a dough that is like 10 Celsius or whatever, no issues. It's brutal per hand. It should be possible, but you'll be working....... Kitchen mixer? Harder. Impossible? LOL. Done it myself. More then once. Seenalso many folks around the internet, how try to kneed their dough P E R F E C T, think, common, another minute, aonther 2, it'll be even better! Then they miss the point and well...... The dough is shit. You are building up stength in the gluten by kneeding. Once it is at a maximum bond stength. Push it harder and the bonds break. REGARDLESS of temperature. If it's only a bit overkneeded, it'll be fine, propably. Stretch and fold and cool it. It'll most likely recover. However, if you pushed it a little bit further over the edge, well. He's dead, Jim. Then again, this takes some time and effort with a kitchen mixer. You'll most likely rather underkneed. Now take a lovely industrial dough mixer. Uhm yeah. Overkneeding in such a machine is childs play. Ask me how I know...........
@@sagichdirdochnicht4653 Hi, can you describe in specific details how you've dealt with very hot ambient temperatures when making bread? Well I'm a newbie baker, and I live in Singapore with a perpetual summer, kitchen temperature roughly 31°C at all times...my dough never truly develops much gluten or pass the windowpane test at all. Not a single one of them ever passed the windowpane test, lol. Very high chance of overfermentation too, which has ruined quite a few of my breads. What can I do about this? Use ice cold water in the dough, and refrigerate the dough every 10 minutes of kneading in the stand mixer? What about bulk fermentation and 2nd final proof?
@@zanaros2606I live in Singapore, as well, and the ambient temperature and humidity are indeed a problem but manageable. I keep all my flour in the freezer at -20°C and use ice water in the mixer. I agree with the comment above that you want to start with about 65% of your water and go from there, but it really depends on your flour how much it can take and how quickly. Likewise agree that it’s okay to under mix a little. Time will take care of the rest.
@@jmargolis72 Hmm...what about bulk fermentation/proofing? How do I do that here in Singapore? All of my doughs basically look like wrinkled bollocks, after being out in the hot 30-31C for an hour or so, lol. Did you build a thermal insulated proofing box or something? I've figured out the water issue, but not yet the bulk fermentation/proofing part.
I like that the video explains why knead and what it does to a dough, but it would have also been interesting if you explain what over kneading would do (If anything) And what is considered over-kneading or not enough.
Wish I had seen this two days ago. I went up in hydration because I thought my dough was too dry and I was overkneading with the mixer. I stopped it before it pulled off from the sides, shaping was a sticky mess and it didn't rise as much as before. Lessons I have learned from you. Knead a bit, pause, knead a bit more and make sure it pulls off of the sides. I generally don't do much folding after it comes out of the mixer, do you recommend adding some additional coil folds before it goes in the fridge overnight?
What would happen if you put the glass bowl in the oven as it is at 22:00 (if the glass is heat-proof) without any shaping/agitation. Would it collapse anyway? There's also the danger that it wouldn't come out of the glass after baking, or would it?
Its also basically much of the water is evaporating during the mixing process, maybe a lower hydration can be used and when more hydration is needed, sprinkle in some water. 9:50 - I feel "temperature" into the equation is irrelevant, because temperature in theory can be controlled. What we care about "extra" kneading is for the labor it does for us and if it does provide any benefits other than temperature is being introduced due to friction. You could just place this bread mixer in a dedicated small/mini refrigerator with controllable temperature to avoid any increase of temperature with "extra" kneading time so this "test" would not be hindered with the increase of temperature. But the results shows, over kneading is just wasting electricity and time.
I'm a chemist. This makes perfect sense. The chemical reactions that are cross-linking the proteins in the flour are parallel to those that make concrete. You want to simply get the surface evenly wet, then allow the cross-liking to occur. This amount will differ on the texture of the break you are looking for. Simply putting the mix in a stand mixer and walking away for 15 minutes is not a good idea.
Hendrik, What are your conclusions about overkneading 100% whole wheat dough? Does it behave like white flour or have you noticed that whole wheat doesn't do well if mixed/kneaded too long?
Which wheat flour exactly did you use in those experiments? If the flour is top quality it will be fine with all that long mixing. Very interested to try to repeat your experiment myself!
Wouldn't it be valuable to take temperature of the mixed dough? I think would give more insight on this experiment. You could even probably find a temperature limit, similar to how you have a ph limit of fermented dough
It's not just "Heat" it's also the amount of Oxygen that is getting added to the dough, mixing longer will do both giving the Yeast more Oxygen, making it more active.
I used a 75% hydration recipe that I use all the time. Usually I stretch and fold instead of kneading. I tried this method in the stand mixer and it turned out awful. The gluten structure was super loose and it never gained strength, even after after resting and trying to return to the usual method. I didn't notice any difference in the usual variables. After the initial proof, I tried to promote some gluten structure by multiple stretches and rests on the bench before the final proof. I'll definitely try again with a lower hydration recipe, but I'm going to need some time before attempting this again.
I was wondering if you can make video on sourdough just kneeded by mixer?I love the stretch and fold by hand,but if I can use mixer and do other thing in the meantime, I will be happy.its all about efficiency, I think you understand 😉
Hendrik, Tipp: Leg dir etwas unter dein Schneidebrett...eine kleine Antirutschmatte oder einfach nen feuchten Spüllappen... Wird einfacher und sicherer! LG aus den Bergen. Tolles Video btw!
I had used mixer and ruined gluten completely to the point that it was like gluten free flour. However it was 65% hydration and whole wheat but i gave 10% gluten flour. i dont know if for your dough this being more wet dough it did not happen or not. I came across to your video because i was trying to make a sense of what i did wrong, and how should i use my kitchen aid mixer better. but now i am more confused as you did not face the same issue. lol
Re your proposed experiment on time and acidity, note that time AND temperature are critical parameters in balancing the contributions of bacteria and yeast to the fermentation.
Why do you "Work the dough" initially in pots instead of on the surface of your counter top? Is there a benefit to working them inside of pots for the kneading before proofing them in the basket?
Du bist recht! You German ingeneer You! Temperature and time are the key elements in brea…Eh, everything! (Even in Beer🇩🇪😜) That’s why i bought a double diving-arm kneader; Low temperature development, longer kneading times in order to create a voluminous dough with a lot of incorporated air. The slow proces is ideal for sourdough dough’s hence these kneaders almost went out of use except for specialty bakers like artisanal and pastry bakers. It takes around 40 minutes before the dough has developed A strong enough gluten network, I knead until 25 to 26 degrees celsius Often this is before A sucsesful window pane is possible, but the dough’s here in Holland are low in strength (As with our big neigbours in the East;) I find the window pane is not necessary, since It still develops after kneading with bulk fermentation, lamination, shaping in other words; Time. Servus, Kees Jan
Funny . . . I was just reading my book titled "Ratio" and it said a mixer and dough hook are great but that it was possible not over knead the dough but it gave no specifics other than it can become "flabby" and not able to hold gas. It said just need it till it can be stretched thin enough to make a translucent sheet without tearing it. But that would be true no matter what method I would guess. Ive been using the mixer for ever but do occasionally do it by hand.
Does the amount of hydration have any effect on the potential to over knead? My bread flour is only 12.7% (King Arthur) and doesn't handle higher hydration recipes particularly well.
You can read about this in detail in my free book called “The Sourdough Framework”. You can get it here: breadco.de/book. You can support the project with a donation, but there is absolutely no knead. I believe information like this should be free and accessible to everyone. The book is made for everyone who wants to understand the important details when making sourdough bread. Thank you!
this experiment showed very little for kneading, but that 2nd loaf fermented more (higher temp) and we saw the difference it makes on the crumb
I really kneaded this!!!
😂 I see what you did there
😂🤣😁
HA! Nice one. But I did too.
Are you a kneady person?
@@dimitrimichaux461 I see what you did there!
I bake sourdough with a mix of flours (bread, rye, whole wheat, semolina) every week and always with my stand mixer because of arthritis in my hands. Keep the mixer at the lower speeds, use only the hook. I never go to high speed because it heats up the dough too much. Once the dough comes away clean from the sides I mix for another 1-2 minutes and it turns out great every time.
About how long do you end up kneading this heavier mixed flours dough? And does it pass the windowpane test at that point?
Bread Flour 400g
Water 320g
SS 40g (bump 20% if yeast)
salt 8g
using high setting is bad for machine
You should make a video of making SD bread with the mixer only, no strech and folds etc :D
As a German hobby baker in Thailand, I love your informative contributions to bread science.
I wouldn't run my good, old KitchenAid on highest speed with a dough. Think this will result in a lot of wear! Greetings from Germany 😂
Thank you for the clear comparison and all of the time you spent to illustrate this process. Its quite different when you see the results side by side.
Hendrik, for your next experiment, I would be interested if you can add flour (and how much) to overfermented dough and get a good dough strength back and save your bread, so to speak.
Hi. You can not save a bread thats overfermented, because it will act like a sourdough or starter, you would need a lot of new dough. But there are a few nice videos of 'pain de campagne' they use 10% sourdough and 10% pâte fermentée. So put it in your fridge and use it step by step in your future breads, it will give huge flavours and and other benefits to your bread dough
When i knead the dough so long, I usually place it in the fridge every 10 minutes. And now it's really hot in my place, around 34-35°C, so I use cold water (around 4-5°C). Thank you for your videos!
if you knead at lower speeds with a stand mixer the dough doesn't heat up (that much/at all if using the speed the manufacturer of the mixer tells you to use: 1 - 2), the kneading takes a little longer, but the bread is consistent, even if you forget about the mixer and let it knead for an hour too much (was not an experiment, but a mistake by me)
An hour by mistake?
@@eswing2153 yeah. put everything in the standmixer, set a timer, went back to just check my mails in the other room and listen a bit to music - and forgot (and overheard th timer) completely.
In some pizzarias they use ice water when mixing large batches of dough. This video helped me understand why. Thanks!
I love how you test everything. Awesome stuff.
I just realized that I never heard about the "base temperature" in not french bread video... This concept is very important for professionals. The goal is to have the good temperature at the end of the kneading.The rule is quite easy. The base temperature is the sum of the temperature of the room, the flour and the water. (Strange mathematics!) If your base temperature is 55°C, your room is at 21°C and your flour at 20°C you need a water at 14°C (21+20+14=55). You have to adjust the base temperature with what you do and how (depending of the machine, the type of kneading) Normally at the end the dough should be more or less at the same temperature.
Very interesting!
Emily Buehler talks about this in her "Bread Science" book. Over-kneading can over-heat the dough, which can be offset by using colder water.
Love your laugh of pleasure upon cutting! thanks for your work and videos!
This is great . . . I learned all this 10 years ago and then I quit making bread and lost my instructions so this is bringing it all back and no one else (that RUclips is promoting on searches) is explaining any of this. I'm taking notes so I can get started tomorrow. Even if you don't do it this way you should know all about it.
I love the precise nature of so many Germans. Thanks for this, you rock!
Really interesting and well performed! Excellent!
When I had less idea than now about what I was doing, I was tired of getting flat breads, so I improvised and lowed the water percentage (I believe from 70 to 60%) and kneaded with a KitchenAid, at medium speed, for around 4 hours. Those where my first nice looking breads, incredible ears and oven spring. But after I did that I read about overkneading and I decreased the kneading time to around 20 minutes, but adding a couple of stretches. It works for me.
4 hours???
4 hrs?
@@aidaiamanova578 I wish I could be more specific but not so long ago I read in a magazine about a new local premium bakery and I remember it mentioned they knead two times over a hour, don't remember exactly. I guess at least when you have the proper flour and recipe, overkneading isn't really an issue :)
Thank you so much for your channel. I've struggled making sourdough bread until I saw your channel. Now everyone loves my bread!
I'm a new bread baker. What's the difference bin sour dough bread than any other bread ? Thank u 😊
Thank you for explaining this science, it was very informative and effective.
Great experiment. The bread looks spectacular 👏👏👏👏👏
Thank you so much. Your information answered my failure. You are an excellent teacher.
I only recently learned how much heat a mixer (or kneading in general) can impart into the dough. Your video seems to confirm what I assumed was happening to some of my breads. I have started using cooler water and will continue to do so.
Really interesting and informative experimental approach to sourdough baking. Thanks - subscribed!
Thanks 🙏🏻
I think, most Professional bakers machine-knead sourdough on much slower speeds, say about 2 or possibly 3, depending on your machine. I can briskly mix 72F flour and water(about 22C)with a Danish dough whisk, and when I measure the dough temperature, it is usually a couple degrees warmer in F.
I would love to see more videos about how to make whole wheat bread it doesn't necessarily have to be 100% whole wheat but at least 50/50. There aren't very many videos about that on RUclips and I would really like to get away from the white flower but still have the same type of fluffy airy bread
Thank you thank you thank you... I really needed to understand the science of breadmaking...
Extremely good experiment, thanks .
Really interesting Hendrick, thank you very much!
i really like your passion for Gluten, and the fact that you laugh a lot, during the video - unfiltered. Peace and happines.
Thanks so much for this. I recently got the same mixer and trying to learn about how to best use it for bread. What speed(s) would you use for typical 60-70% hydration dough? Thnx
Just what I was looking for today!
Thank you. This is a great help as even though I love love love making sourdough bread by hand, I now need to buy a stand mixer to take over much of the labour. Some dough hooks are coated with teflon. Will teflon cause any issues with the sourdough?
I leave it in my stand mixer until it lick the bowl clean. I may add a few TSP of flour until it licks the bowl clean. I then do a window pane test. If it passes this test I dump it out on my bread board, knead it for a few minutes and dump it in a bowl for the first rise. Covered, of course.
As a scientist, the citation for Jack's channel made me happy
as a "scientist" ... what?
I find it helpful to wrap the bottom of my mixing bowl with a cool/warm wet towel to control the interior temperature of my product.
Curious if the whole wheat bread would have been fine if it had not over proofed or if whole wheat flour reacts differently to kneading?
I knead my dough in my Kitchen Aid for a total of 7 minutes and it always comes out perfectly!
Me too. 10 mn.
@@sheryamiraslani6596, does it appear shaggy or is it smooth/window pane ready by that time?
Does it appear shaggy or is it smooth/window pane ready by that time?
Excellent video, thank you!
Funny I saw this new video tonight. Earlier today I placed my post-autolayse dough in my stand mixer for 15 minutes on low but then I walked away and forgot about it. I came back into the kitchen 2hours later and pulled it off to bulk ferment. I’m lazy and I don’t do any stretch and folds and just ferment in the bowl. After about 3 hours, the dough passed the windowpane test and was ready to shape. Baked after my second rise and I still got good oven spring! I thought I ruined it but it turned out just fine. I haven’t cut it open yet but it’s got a nice shape. I think the trick is the slow knead and not using the high levels in the stand mixer. On another note, I appreciate you showing what over fermentation looks like. I used to follow an overnight bulk ferment recipe and I could never figure out why I couldn’t shape like the video. One of your other videos talking about over fermentation and your timing chart really changed my results. Thanks!
A lot of great information. I will have to experiment. I have just started using my kitchen aid for kneading. I am very mindful of the time so this makes sense. I still do folds and all the other stuff…but my bread is turning out great.
You would have to heat the dough up enough to the temperature that would kill the yeast..which is why it did not increase in size that one time..and the other one had a decrease in activity because some of the yeast died from overheat but not all of it
Great experiment, thanks
Hand mixing or KitchenAid mixer
It’s probably impossible to over mix
But a European designed dough mixer can easily destroy your mix
You can tell when it starts to get silky smooth it’s time to stop
With a good,mixer you can easily destroyer your mix
I’m sure you can. I’ve done it
it was not very hard
An extra five minutes too long it’s finished
Your dough is more like syrup
This is great testing thankyou :) I still wonder about low hydration doughs... say down to 60%... perhaps high hydration prevents damage to the proteins by lubricating the mixture? Harder to test though... my mixer probably isn't capable of kneading anything lower than 70% hydration anyway. And it would probably come down to overheating as the main problem rather than actual chemical damage to the gluten structure?
Wow! Great show. I also noticed how much whiter the bread is from the long-kneaded dough. According to Modernist Bread it is due to oxidation introduced by the additional mixing. Do you notice a taste difference in the side by side? MB suggests it is less desirable but I've never done the test. How about a triangle taste test for a video?
Whoa that time-lapse was awesome
Your enthusiasm is contagious
Sank you!
Sank u 2
Wonderful 👍...
My observation here is the process.
Your process actually suggest a great solution. Here in Nigeria, the process is quite different from yours and ours certainly does over mix once it exceeds 15 minutes mix as a result of the process use in mixing it.
I have learnt a better process from your video, would try it out! 👍
Hendrik - I've tried this twice and both times my dough is too runny and sticky so that all I can do is put it in a loaf tin. I kneaded fro 30 minutes (10 mins on, 10 mins break etc) I'm using regular starter, so went for 20% as you suggested. Last attempt I used 350g bread flour and 150g wholemeal flour. Both have approx 11% protein. Any suggestions as I"d like to make a nice boule but I just can't shape it.
Hello lovely video. Is the stand mixer you used a good one I am looking for an alternative to a kitchenaid. Can you do a video about it thanks
Dude, you are awesome! haha nice. I want to try at home if I can make sourdough without vapor. Let me explain: instead of using a dutch oven, trying to use some oil (olive maybe) at the surface of the dough. If you want to test, it would be interesting.
That's crazy speed for kneading :)) My Bosch mixer suggests speeds 1-3 for the hook, it never occured to me I should go faster :)
Thank you for this video.
Wow...your bread never fails.
Thank you for the video. Sorry if the answer to my question may be obvious, would the dough rise at the same rate as the small sample you took out? If so, that would be a great trick to figure out when your dough has doubled in size...something I'm always having issues with!
Thanks, I think I saw the same thing in 1 of Peter Reinhart's books but never had the heart to try it out.
This was an awesome video! I have a question. Do you remove the loaves from the refrigerator and place them directly in the oven, or do you set them aside and let them sit for a while before you bake them? Also…when you said you baked them with steam for a period of time, then continued with no steam…does your oven produce the steam, or are you adding the steam by spraying water?
Really good video.
This is a great video, and I was really intrigued by how you're measuring the pH level of the dough to check if it's overkneaded. I'm an avid (though amateur) pizza maker, and I often struggle with overkneading my dough in the stand mixer. I was wondering if the pH level should ideally fall between 5.0 and 6.0. By taking this measurement, can I prevent overkneading? Thank you!
love the experimentally apt comments too
I like your passion to the bread....Peace Brother
Vielen Dank fuer das Video. Was meinst du am Anfang wenn du sagst, dass du fluessigen Sauerteigstarter benutzt? Gruesse aus Oregon :)
Very interesting finding that temperature matters more than kneading time.
Would have been cool to actually measure and compare dough temp.
For pizza, it's a common advice to stop mixing at 25°C in order not to damage the dough. Sometimes you'll start with ice water in order not to exceed that temp.
So, next experiment: Same mixing time, but different target temp? 20°C, 25°C, 30°C? :)
Actually, that's kinda common for baking in general. At least in any semi-professional environment. At least when we are talking about (mostly) pure wheat, spelt or any such grain based good. Different rules apply for different grains and when you mix them.
Anyway. Gluten is a protein. Proteins are very heat sensitive. Pasta to hot, when you apply the egg mixture for carbonara? The egg (Proten!) will clot, the sauce is ruined. Same thing happens with Gluten.
In my bakery I fucking pray to never exceed around 25, 26 at the very max Celsius. Otherwise the entire batch is fucked. Beyond repair. This is a problem in Summer. I can not work without ice. I put Milk in the freezer for sweet breads and cakes.
The reason you may or may not notice it that much, is because I use organic flour from our own fields. Most flour you buy already has additives, even many organic ones. And the grain itself of course; some are more sensitive then others, every single batch of grain is completely different. That at least is not TO big of an issue when you buy flour; the mill usually mixes XYZ different grain batches to give you a flour that has roughly the same properties. What you can buy anywhere else is probably more heat resistive. However, that doesn't mean it would be in any scenario good to exceed such temperatures. And no I do NOT use warm water or milk in ANY recipe. There are only types of people who do that. A: Those who have no fucking Idea what they are doing. And those who are bloody geniouses, that MARTICOLOUSLY crafted a recipe with hot and cold ingredients and times, that somehow end up at just the right temp.
Trust me when I say however, that I have not seen a single such genius on RUclips and such.
But LMAO kneeding times mattes. Oh it does. Differnce is lust that you can wipe your ass off with times provided in recipes. Any flour is different. Any machine is differnt. And even ever hand kneeds different. Same dough in machine A can take 5 minutes in my professional machine, 15 minutes in my kitchen appliance and 20 Minutes per hand. And with a diffent flour this could mean 8, 20 and 25 Minutes.
For "wetter" doughs, say starting at around the 65%ish hydration mark and long-er bulk proofs, you absolutely can get away with less kneeding times. Stretch and folds. Does magic. When I see a dough rising in temp while kneeding and it is such a dough, I'll just stop underkneeded. A few stretches and folds and a night in the fridge, you won't see a noticeable difference. In fact, many if not most "hand kneeders" underknead, which isn't a huge issue for most bread recipes.
However, if we are talking about lower hydration doughs... Oh f me. For many specialities, many forms of breadrolls, pretzels, whatever, you need low hydration. Stretch and fold will not work well. Worse, those doughs are usually meant to be worked within 30-60 MInutes. No, this is not to short, you do NOT want your dough to conciderably pop for such things.
Don't kneed such a dough properly, it'll turn out shit.
Wasn't that video about overkneeding? Well, you FUCKING CAN. Regardless of temperature. High temperature will make it worse, but you can fucking ruin a dough that is like 10 Celsius or whatever, no issues.
It's brutal per hand. It should be possible, but you'll be working.......
Kitchen mixer? Harder. Impossible? LOL. Done it myself. More then once. Seenalso many folks around the internet, how try to kneed their dough P E R F E C T, think, common, another minute, aonther 2, it'll be even better! Then they miss the point and well...... The dough is shit. You are building up stength in the gluten by kneeding. Once it is at a maximum bond stength. Push it harder and the bonds break. REGARDLESS of temperature.
If it's only a bit overkneeded, it'll be fine, propably. Stretch and fold and cool it. It'll most likely recover. However, if you pushed it a little bit further over the edge, well. He's dead, Jim.
Then again, this takes some time and effort with a kitchen mixer. You'll most likely rather underkneed. Now take a lovely industrial dough mixer. Uhm yeah. Overkneeding in such a machine is childs play. Ask me how I know...........
@@sagichdirdochnicht4653 we put our flour in the freezer too in the summer, it really is essencial
@@sagichdirdochnicht4653 Hi, can you describe in specific details how you've dealt with very hot ambient temperatures when making bread? Well I'm a newbie baker, and I live in Singapore with a perpetual summer, kitchen temperature roughly 31°C at all times...my dough never truly develops much gluten or pass the windowpane test at all. Not a single one of them ever passed the windowpane test, lol. Very high chance of overfermentation too, which has ruined quite a few of my breads. What can I do about this? Use ice cold water in the dough, and refrigerate the dough every 10 minutes of kneading in the stand mixer? What about bulk fermentation and 2nd final proof?
@@zanaros2606I live in Singapore, as well, and the ambient temperature and humidity are indeed a problem but manageable. I keep all my flour in the freezer at -20°C and use ice water in the mixer. I agree with the comment above that you want to start with about 65% of your water and go from there, but it really depends on your flour how much it can take and how quickly. Likewise agree that it’s okay to under mix a little. Time will take care of the rest.
@@jmargolis72 Hmm...what about bulk fermentation/proofing? How do I do that here in Singapore? All of my doughs basically look like wrinkled bollocks, after being out in the hot 30-31C for an hour or so, lol. Did you build a thermal insulated proofing box or something? I've figured out the water issue, but not yet the bulk fermentation/proofing part.
I like that the video explains why knead and what it does to a dough, but it would have also been interesting if you explain what over kneading would do (If anything) And what is considered over-kneading or not enough.
Great Job
Interesting video again.Thanks yo I just feed my sourdough :)
I would wonder about heating the dough up by using such a fast speed? Did you measure the dough temperature?
You really are a physicist/engineer by heart
Sanks 🤣
Thank you for your video
I found this video after having a breakdown and crying into two batches of ruined dinner roll dough. Thank you for sharing this!
What did it teach you for your specific case?
Wish I had seen this two days ago. I went up in hydration because I thought my dough was too dry and I was overkneading with the mixer. I stopped it before it pulled off from the sides, shaping was a sticky mess and it didn't rise as much as before.
Lessons I have learned from you. Knead a bit, pause, knead a bit more and make sure it pulls off of the sides.
I generally don't do much folding after it comes out of the mixer, do you recommend adding some additional coil folds before it goes in the fridge overnight?
nice experiment, can you pout the dough in the refrigerator to avoid over heating the dough through out the kneading process?
What would happen if you put the glass bowl in the oven as it is at 22:00 (if the glass is heat-proof) without any shaping/agitation. Would it collapse anyway? There's also the danger that it wouldn't come out of the glass after baking, or would it?
Geek on! We love adding data to our brains by way of your experiments!
Was there any difference in flavor between the less and more kneaded white breads?
Great question. No difference 🙏🏻.
Which category would you place the Khorasan/Kamut flour in: the wheat & spelt (to be kneaded) or the rye+ category (no knead). Thanks so much
Its also basically much of the water is evaporating during the mixing process, maybe a lower hydration can be used and when more hydration is needed, sprinkle in some water.
9:50 - I feel "temperature" into the equation is irrelevant, because temperature in theory can be controlled. What we care about "extra" kneading is for the labor it does for us and if it does provide any benefits other than temperature is being introduced due to friction. You could just place this bread mixer in a dedicated small/mini refrigerator with controllable temperature to avoid any increase of temperature with "extra" kneading time so this "test" would not be hindered with the increase of temperature.
But the results shows, over kneading is just wasting electricity and time.
Good morning
can you give a good recipe for a wholemeal spelt sourdough bread?
I'm a chemist. This makes perfect sense. The chemical reactions that are cross-linking the proteins in the flour are parallel to those that make concrete. You want to simply get the surface evenly wet, then allow the cross-liking to occur. This amount will differ on the texture of the break you are looking for. Simply putting the mix in a stand mixer and walking away for 15 minutes is not a good idea.
Hey man great video, I was wondering why you fold it in like that in 10:57
What's your stand mixer brand? It seems like you can use any bowl?
Hendrik, What are your conclusions about overkneading 100% whole wheat dough? Does it behave like white flour or have you noticed that whole wheat doesn't do well if mixed/kneaded too long?
Which wheat flour exactly did you use in those experiments? If the flour is top quality it will be fine with all that long mixing. Very interested to try to repeat your experiment myself!
Wouldn't it be valuable to take temperature of the mixed dough? I think would give more insight on this experiment. You could even probably find a temperature limit, similar to how you have a ph limit of fermented dough
It's not just "Heat" it's also the amount of Oxygen that is getting added to the dough, mixing longer will do both giving the Yeast more Oxygen, making it more active.
I used a 75% hydration recipe that I use all the time. Usually I stretch and fold instead of kneading. I tried this method in the stand mixer and it turned out awful. The gluten structure was super loose and it never gained strength, even after after resting and trying to return to the usual method. I didn't notice any difference in the usual variables. After the initial proof, I tried to promote some gluten structure by multiple stretches and rests on the bench before the final proof. I'll definitely try again with a lower hydration recipe, but I'm going to need some time before attempting this again.
I was wondering if you can make video on sourdough just kneeded by mixer?I love the stretch and fold by hand,but if I can use mixer and do other thing in the meantime, I will be happy.its all about efficiency, I think you understand 😉
Hendrik, Tipp: Leg dir etwas unter dein Schneidebrett...eine kleine Antirutschmatte oder einfach nen feuchten Spüllappen...
Wird einfacher und sicherer! LG aus den Bergen. Tolles Video btw!
Danke 🙏🏻
Is that the the Bosch mum5 you're using?
I had used mixer and ruined gluten completely to the point that it was like gluten free flour. However it was 65% hydration and whole wheat but i gave 10% gluten flour. i dont know if for your dough this being more wet dough it did not happen or not. I came across to your video because i was trying to make a sense of what i did wrong, and how should i use my kitchen aid mixer better. but now i am more confused as you did not face the same issue. lol
I have an Ankarsrum mixer. It’s bread monster.
If you fast forward with the arrow keys from minute 9:27 to 10:36, you can see the doughs rising. It's cool.
Re your proposed experiment on time and acidity, note that time AND temperature are critical parameters in balancing the contributions of bacteria and yeast to the fermentation.
I'm interested in you demonstrating baguettes and Pita bread.
Why do you "Work the dough" initially in pots instead of on the surface of your counter top?
Is there a benefit to working them inside of pots for the kneading before proofing them in the basket?
Du bist recht! You German ingeneer You!
Temperature and time are the key elements in brea…Eh, everything!
(Even in Beer🇩🇪😜)
That’s why i bought a double diving-arm kneader; Low temperature development, longer kneading times in order to create a voluminous dough with a lot of incorporated air. The slow proces is ideal for sourdough dough’s hence these kneaders almost went out of use except for specialty bakers like artisanal and pastry bakers.
It takes around 40 minutes before the dough has developed A strong enough gluten network, I knead until 25 to 26 degrees celsius
Often this is before A sucsesful window pane is possible, but the dough’s here in Holland are low in strength (As with our big neigbours in the East;)
I find the window pane is not necessary, since It still develops after kneading with bulk fermentation, lamination, shaping in other words; Time.
Servus,
Kees Jan
Funny . . . I was just reading my book titled "Ratio" and it said a mixer and dough hook are great but that it was possible not over knead the dough but it gave no specifics other than it can become "flabby" and not able to hold gas. It said just need it till it can be stretched thin enough to make a translucent sheet without tearing it. But that would be true no matter what method I would guess. Ive been using the mixer for ever but do occasionally do it by hand.
Does the amount of hydration have any effect on the potential to over knead? My bread flour is only 12.7% (King Arthur) and doesn't handle higher hydration recipes particularly well.
I think so. In generally it will take longer to build the same amount of dough strength with a wetter dough :-)