I can see why they cut it, in that it put the focus on Tam where they wanted probably to keep the focus narrowly on the EF5, Moiraine, and Lan. It's still beautiful. He's such a good actor.
@@jeannekalvar9504 that's a good point too. I can't put my finger squarely on exactly why I would have cut it, but the more I'm watching the conversations around it now, the better I think it works as something for fans to talk about rather than part of the show lol
I am glad they cut it. We shouldn't be encouraged to dislike Egwene for choosing her career over her man. When REALLY it's the culture who FORCES her to make a choice between them. If they rewrote it instead to remove Tam laying guilt on her, I'd like it. This made me like Tam LESS. I was thinking, why is he laying all that on Egwene? Tam would never do that.
@@kathryncainmadsen5850 I didn't see that scene like that at all. I didn't think he was guilt tripping her, and Egwene doesn't come out badly for breaking up with Rand for her career from this conversation. He is just telling her that if she is sure of her choice a clean cut is better, Rand would be hurt anyway but it would be faster to go on for everybody, to avoid dragging things out. Which is what happened anyway (despite them being fine at the end of episode 1) and resulted in that whole teenage relationship drama which i would have happily cut.
This is significant character development for both Tam and Egwene. Sadly this feels like the death of a thousand cuts due to arbitrary episode length constraints. We're no longer in the limited realm of broadcast land so not having a few minute leeway to let an episode fully breathe feels almost criminal. I really think this scene should have been kept in to help flesh out Tam and give more of Rand and Egwene's backstory. Also you'd think they would want to keep this to help throw a red herring about Rand's red hair, since if we hear his mom had red hair we don't stop to wonder too closely if maybe he was adopted or an outsider.
I immediately thought, without even thinking of what they might have cut or could have included, that the pilot episode was too short. It felt almost like 2 episodes crammed into one, or at least what should have been an extra long "full pilot" style episode crammed into minimum possible length. Seeing this beautiful scene as part of the "chaff" that "had to be cut" for length is making me disappointed all over again! XD Although I'll admit that already knowing the characters makes it hard to evaluate since no one just starting the show for the first time is going to get leaky eyes over that scene...🙃
I wish it had been in there. It makes Tam so much more likable. It makes it easier to understand Rand’s denial that Tam is not his father, and that he is the dragon. Great video as always 😊
@@kathryncainmadsen5850 guilt tripping? he's telling her not to give Rand false hope; if she's going to break up with him, then do it, don't leave things unspoken and unclear. I don't think that's guilt tripping.
The scene would confirm what Rand says in AMOL, when asked about what is different between him and Lews Therin. He says "I was raised better," and I think that's THE point.
@@bravery12329 I would love a book telling the story of Tam and Abell’s adventures together throughout the series. The story of a wizened old Blademaster and a horse trading marksman, who’s not too shabby with a quarter staff, set out to face all of the forces of evil itself not for their duty as soldiers or some kingdom but their duty as fathers. The conversations between Tam and Abell could reveal amazing insight into histories subplots and other side character arcs. The overlapping chapters from the original series would be interesting from their perspectives. From Eye of the World to A Memory of Light, they were there. What an amazing read that could be.
thanks for sharing the scene! i didn’t know it came out yet! i liked it a lot! I never really thought about Tam’s wife so it’s nice to think about how life was before she passed. This was a really good breakdown!! you pointed out a lot of things i didn’t notice on my own. I wish they had included the scene. Thank you for adding the context of where the scene would have happened too!
That "He's all I have" from Tam is beautiful. They need to find a way to put this into a flashback as Egwene makes some future decisions. Loving Tam and knowing how much he loves Rand is CRITICAL to a bookreader like me. I hope they manage this for the show watchers too.
It may be frustrating now, but hopefully if this show does become more popular these deleted scenes can be added back in for people who pick it up later
Great video! I loved the scene too. Someone on Twitter pointed out that it might've been excluded because much of S1 is about Rand and Egwene's will they, won't they dynamic and this scene seems to set up their permanent break up. So it might have been confusing, and then annoying, that their romance continued after this. FULL SPOILERS My immediate association with the clean cut was to do with the seals on the DOs prison - whether to repair the weakened seals to break them all and make new ones. Obviously Rand and Egwene had differing opinions on this, and that's reflected in their episode 2 behaviour - Egwene goes Rand for comfort and he pushes her away.
I agree about all the positives that this scene could've brought to episode 1. On the other hand, perhaps it would've confused nonreaders to hear about "Rand's mother with blue eyes and red hair" and later in episode 7 made them wonder if that was her. It would've needed additional screen time later on to clarify and expand on this, and Amazon probably felt it wasn't worth committing to that in s1.
I'll agree that's a legitimate concern, but they were hardly opposed to confusing nonreaders with things that need clarifying and expanding in later seasons of the show. I think that either the pre-screening or editing team or whoever got the vibes some people have been getting in the comments (not me) that it made Tam feel like he was guilt tripping Egwene which is definitely not how his character should be portrayed to non-book readers, or they simply were laboring under stupidly over-constrained episode length limitations (which I think is the most likely).
Not sure why streaming shows hold to outdated timing structures especially with the popularity of Korean shows here in the USA that typically run much longer per episode. I’m hoping they will release a director’s cut. But mostly I hope they continue to learn and grow while keeping true to the heart of the narrative.
I've long wondered WHY they decide to cut these things, especially if it is already shot and recorded. A few years ago, sure, when you had to fit a show into a certain slot in the timetable for linear television, but nowadays with VoD and streaming I really don't see why they can't add another 5-10min to one episode if you feel it is needed or for story-building purposes. For budget reasons to save costs on salaries, VFX, shooting, etc sure. But with everything already done? I guess there's pacing and to keep audience attention, but a short 1min here or there, especially something as profound and deep like this!
The fact that this scene is so tightly edited and clean implies that it likely was in the pilot right up until nearly the end if post production. So I'm guessing the choice to remove it came very late in the process.
There are a thousand places where such cuts can be made, and with good reason: pacing. There's something to the ebb and flow "feel" of the story as it unfolds, where even a few additional scenes like this slow the story right down and prevent you getting to the next part of the narrative. I can see why scenes like this get cut. I did the same in my fan edit, which has MASSIVE trims to dialog scenes just like this one, to keep the focus tight and the story moving forward. I think where they should have been sharper with the editing was Ep 4-7, where there's a lot more stopping and talking.
10:05 I think you overlooked another potential foreshadowing that's also a HUGE book spoiler. ** BOOK SPOILERS ** ** SERIOUSLY, LEAVE NOW! ** When Herid Fel leaves the note to Rand about "clearing away the rubble", it is Rand's cue to basically break the remaining seals, as he realizes the only way to seal the Dark One back up is to remove the "ragged cut" that were the imperfect seals so that he can make his own "clean cut" with the new seal. Which is also a point of argument between him and Egwene.
I just finished the last book, 5 minutes ago. And had to come back here to watch the end as I knew what it would be. Thank you for your videos and all i can say for now.. is i’m so happy my favourite character had such an incredible, incredible moment.
I wish they could have kept this in, there was so much in just that one scene that might come in later and could have saved them time explaining. Oh well. Thankfully they shared it.
Damn, it's a shame they cut this. Tam was perfectly cast in the show and although he's a small character in the books every scene we get of him is great. I wanted more.
Even in the books he looms larger than his actual page/"screen"-time because of his influence on Rand and even to a lesser extent Mat/Perrin. At least that was my experience when reading/re-reading.
I think the more specific foreshadowing was when Tam says that the wheel turns and you get to try again, maybe do a little better. that IMHO is a much bigger book spolier :) (If you've read them you know what I mean, if you haven't then I highly recommend reading them :) )
Great catch with that last one, for me it was a nice foreshadowing for what needs to happen with the seals, and did I catch a idea that would work great for feins of gold as well?
I would have kept this and Nynaeve and Egwene talking in Nynaeve's house (from one of the bts pics) instead of that really weird braid ceremony. Just give me some time to get to know the characters instead of scenes done just to shock for a moment...it's weird how Tam in eotw is constantly in the back of Rand's mind, while in the show is almost non existent. I really hoped when Rand and Nynaeve sat down together in Tar Valon they would talk about it, yet it just ended up being another Egwene's story...
Great scene for Tam. Wish it had been kept (along with some more time for leavetaking). Spoiler below: I thought you were going a different way in the spoiler section. To me, it seemed like a comment about Rand and Egwene’s eventual disagreement about the seals. Clean cuts heal better works into the theme there as well. Anyway, great little scene.
I always love your content, and this deleted scene breakdown is just what I needed to fill in the deep longing for any promotional or marketing content from the Marketing Team behind the TV Series. It’s almost as though they’ve forgotten that there are fans of both the books AND the TV Series. I’m still waiting for the content Rafe teased at San Diego ComicCon 2022 that was supposed to be released in August. And an actual date for Season 2 would be nice.
The only reason I can see why they cut this is because Egewenes lines about Rand looking like his mom kind of run counter to what Thom says later in the season. He says something along the lines of "not much to tell where a man is from besides the sound of his tongue and the color of his hair." If that is true in the TVshow universe, then Rand's mom having red hair would be a talking point and giveaway that Rand is foreign before the show is ready to reveal that. really wish theyd have found a way to keep it in, its such a great scene.
Cutting this scene was a travesty, especially in light of your (as always so insightful!) analysis of what it adds. It was only a little over one minute long.
Should have kept it in. The show needs space to breathe. I hope to the gods Amazon realizes a show this big needs more than 8 episodes. 13 would be better. All the lore and magic is a really heavy lift, needs more space to develop.
Glad we got to see it, but I think very properly cut down to the "good morning he's gone " as you note, almost everything else in this scene is shown or said elsewhere. The story about Egwene has confusing information about Kari and doesn't show anything about her (compare with Rand's berry story or Nynaeve's ep 5 story). Plus pacing. Better to show than tell the relationships and character of Tam
Great video! Totally agree with your takes here and it should have been left in! (but we all know episode 1 should have been longer or split into two episodes right?) Thanks!
I am hoping we will get to see the extended versions of these episodes. Like LOTR and The Hobbit, when epic stories do not have any breath, they just feel like a video game where characters are running from one location to the next and fighting bigger and bigger bosses. Watching the extended versions of LOTR and The Hobbit are such pleasure compared to the first time watching them in the theatre, which was just exhausting. So far, the TV series, although not absolutely faithful to the books (and how could it be), is very creative in generating its own flow to turning the wheel.
I wish the scene would have been kept in! As well, it’s such a good foreshadowing of how important Tam is for Rand to remember his humanity right before Rand merges himself with Lews Therin.
Great breakdown! I have some slightly different views but you have made me think more, which I love. I'm still glad it was cut, but glad we have it to nerd out over! new viewers wouldn't know what Tam means by 'when they were rebuilding the Inn after the fire'. I'm not a huge fan of the scene - I think it confuses that in WoT death is not final, so that confuses me! I dunno. I think things are neater without it. I also think it confuses things by saying that Rand had Kari's eyes and hair are the same as Rands. She wasn't Aiel, nor confused for one surely.
@@koalasedai Book doesn’t specify just says red. Elayne is described as golden so often it must be a strawberry blonde. Not that I’ve ever seen strawberry blonde and thought gold!
Interesting, so it means that the show makers already wanted to hint that Rand and Egwene would not be a couple eventually. I think Tam senses that Egwene wants more than settling down with Rand in TR, which is what Rand wants, that's why he is hinting that Egwene should break up with him rather than drag it out and keep giving him false hope. And I think the fire could be due to channeling, possibly by Nynaeve, possibly by other Wisdom apprentices, because Two Rivers folk have a higher likelihood of being channelers, so it should have more frequent unexpected incidents from wilders. Possibly there is another deleted scene where Moiraine comments that she detects the potential of unexpectedly strong and many channelers than in other towns.
Totally agreed, they should have allowed the first episode to be about 15 minutes longer. It would have allowed more explanation of the world and would have solved the weird pacing issues. The scene with Tam is so great, I am sad it's not in the final. Maybe one day they'll make a director's cut version of the whole series. ;)
They should have kept this yes. Would it have made a huge difference? No, but it is a good scene - they should have cut the banging scene, which was ridiculous, and kept this.
!!Spoilers for the last book!! The clean cut of death being better than the ragged one can also be referencing how Rand defeats the dark one. Instead of patching up the ragged holes of the current prison with the failing seals, he makes a clean cut to make the prison anew
I like the extra character development but they just did not have the time to spend on it. With the episode length they have to really boil it down to the must have scenes just to tell a narrative that makes sense. They struggled with this in the first season at times imo particularly in that first episode. Really we needed more time with Tam, but something has to drop to fit that in. Perhaps they should have left the Rand Eggy relationship to be fleshed out in the second episode with some road sex or something, or drop the Woman circle stuff.... or something.
They cut it and put the braiding scene and women's circle business in. Just to keep people in the dark about who's the Dragon. TV-politics. No serious reason at all! I really would like to wait the whole show and all the bickering out and watch it after the last season, but I'm too old!
@@hiltrud2001 I hear you. I liked the first season but to me they made some mistakes with it. How Lan never got any action scenes is one head scratcher. Some of the things they decided to spend the time budget on is another big one, although I get how they fell into that trap. The episode devoted to the warder would be a great idea, but it had to be left for a later season where there is more attachment to the characters, and there is more time to fit it in. After that they need to not have another episode of the quality that episode 8 was released in, (Covid or nucellar war no excuses)
Tams dialogue about the wheel turning... It would have hit much differently had that deleted scene been included. Had it been included.. you would have a man wrestling with his boy becoming a man. Perhaps in the two rivers as a father.. there's no exact point when your son is considered a man. But when its known your son is the same age as an accepted in the women's circle... he knows pain is coming for Rand. But we don't get that. We get a sad and kindly old man fumbling around about the wheel. They literally cut out a scene with huge context to Tam in later scenes. Perhaps its ok they did. Its hard to tell what scene they used that time for.
I'm glad this was left out, it only serves to emasculate an otherwise stoic rock of a character. Emotions are important, that's one of the things Rand has to contend with as the series moves forward (insert Nietzsche quote), but so is a sense of duty, and doing what needs to be done. “In war, you say a prayer for your dead and ride on, because there is always another fight over the next horizon." - Book Lan
@@UnravelingthePattern No, showing love for your son does not make you "unmanly". I'm saying that he is a character with many layers, who choses his words carefully, and doesn't speak his mind often. This ultimately gives his words and actions more meaning/impact when he choses to share them. This scene would've depicted him as somewhat weepy right off the hop, when that is not the case in the books. Tam is a slow burn of a character, the more than it is revealed, the more you realize that still waters run deep.
In the books the Inn has stables for its horses, I wonder if the cauthens lost the majority of their horses in the fire. I think the scene also shows that the two rivers are used to rebuilding the Inn, so despite Moiraine bringing it down they will be fine. I so hope we get a directors cut of the series .This has made me want to do another rewatch.
Its sad that they take out the scene, I think it could be a good easter egg for the ones that already read the books 😅 Spoiler of the books!!!!! (Not sure how I should tag spoiler, sorry, hope this is enough) When I read the last book and egwene die, I was like noooooo, why she but then it was like its a very good sacrifice 😢
It's unfortunate how they made season 1. I won't get into it, but this storyline doesn't parallel the book all that well. The Cauthon family, Perrin story, Padan Fain, etc. I could go on and on. At least GoT did a better job following the story. TBH, they portray doom and gloom with little or no humor/levity. Based on the path season 1 took, I am not sure if they can recover the story line.
I am on book eight and was starting to get burn-out as Jordan seems to like to repeat descriptions of things... Thank you for the Spoiler, as now I cant wait to see/read the final battle!! Right now Eqwene is trying to take hold of the Hall and staying for a month on the border or Andor resting. ...
I'm sorry I spoiled it, but I promise it's worth it if you get through Crossroads of Twilight. The last 4 books are a fast rollercoaster and totally worth it!
Definitely wish that scene had been in there! Spoilers . . . . . . . . . . In terms of foreshadowing for Egwene's death the other moment I liked in the show was when Moiraine was telling the story of Manetherin the camera focuses on Egwene when Moiraine is talking about the queen who took in too much of the power and let loose destroying everything. Just a nice touch!
I am glad they cut it. We shouldn't be encouraged to dislike Egwene for choosing her career over her man. When REALLY it's the culture who FORCES her to make a choice between them. If they rewrote it instead to remove Tam laying guilt on her, I'd like it.
@@UnravelingthePattern I strongly disagree. He was telling her not to break Rand's heart..Period. AND using his wife's kindness to her as a kind of implied quid pro quo. Believe me, I don't think Tam would do that and I think that's a big reason it was cut.
@Kathryn Cain Madsen This is a great insight but that's not how I read it at all. As a father of teenagers myself, I only saw a father wanting what was best for his son. Not somebody who was intentionally trying to discourage or be unsupportive of Egwene. It felt the opposite of "toxic masculinity" to me, as he was just a loving father looking out for his son and willing to show emotion. That said, I respect your opinion very much and appreciate your insight, because I could be very wrong and this very well could be one of the reasons they cut the scene. It just never occurred to me that this was the subtext of the scene. I'm thankful for viewpoints like yours that help me to see the world through different lenses because it enriches me and expands my understanding. Thank you for sharing!
@@UnravelingthePattern I do think it's hard to detach the actual script from the likability and delivery of the actor so I'll say this. That's how I read the script, not the delivery. I see what you are saying you get out of it from the actor. Certainly, his intention is to protect Rand from hurt. But, I still think the actual script means that Egwene is being asked to make the sacrifice. The fact that Wisdoms don't marry is one of Jordan's inventions. That I get. But Tam never attempted to sway her in any way in the books. He wouldn't.
@@kathryncainmadsen5850 Totally fair. There are a lot of liberties taken in the show related to what characters "would" or "wouldn't" do. I think loving his son and showing emotion is absolutely in-character. I agree though that intentionally manipulating Egwene is very out-of-character, which is why I think it didn't even occur to me that he was doing that. Thanks again for the great insight and discussion!
I am a book reader of this series from the day the first one was released. This live action kind of had me raw. I feel they should have had it stay. It definitely would have helped a lot. Im trying to just forget books for a while and try and enjoy the live........ I was hoping for better but I saw them rip up Terry Goodkinds work with Legend of the seeker disaster
Are you really that closed minded? I love the books. I like the show. Get over it. EDIT: Just to clarify, you don't have to like the show, that's totally fine. But to assume that nobody else can possibly like it because you don't is closed-minded. Also, I deleted your follow-up comment because you called people names in the comment, which is against my RUclips comment rules.
@@UnravelingthePattern great question - woke means in any context, the idea of forcing a progressive ideology onto a topic. Originally woke meant, to be awake and understanding the oppression that is faced - in reference to racism in America. However, that term has been rightfully repurposed to poke fun at the so called 'anti-racist, anti-sexist' ideologues of the American left who are in fact not actually free of racism themselves. The Amazon season one, introduced lesbian affairs needlessly and implied homosexual affairs as well. The Books themselves speak of the Green Ajah as having multiple wardens, but makes no illusions or tips of the hat to homosexuality. The WOT books are pure in that sense not being tainted by progressive cultural idea's. Despite the official explanation of the reason for the ending of season 1, Id say it was socially "better" aka woke, to have the women destroy the Trolloc army, versus rightfully having Rand do it. There was a cost efficient way to have Rand stick to the book. But Hollywood never fails to insert their progressive ethics into everything they touch. Hollywood is Woke embodied. Thats all. Just one fans opinion.
I really dont like the casting for Egwene,..i cant look past her nose. Talk about superficial,..but there you have it. Besides, she's not as I imagined she'd look in the books.
@@UnravelingthePattern Meh, it's supposed to entertain me, not forcing me to be PC - besides, she knew she was going to be on TV,..couldn't she get that mole removed,..or digitally edit it out,..as i said,..superficial,..but am i wrong?
Why do you think they took this scene out? Was it the right choice?
Wow I don’t know how they talked themselves outa keeping that scene.
I can see why they cut it, in that it put the focus on Tam where they wanted probably to keep the focus narrowly on the EF5, Moiraine, and Lan. It's still beautiful. He's such a good actor.
@@jeannekalvar9504 that's a good point too. I can't put my finger squarely on exactly why I would have cut it, but the more I'm watching the conversations around it now, the better I think it works as something for fans to talk about rather than part of the show lol
I am glad they cut it. We shouldn't be encouraged to dislike Egwene for choosing her career over her man. When REALLY it's the culture who FORCES her to make a choice between them. If they rewrote it instead to remove Tam laying guilt on her, I'd like it. This made me like Tam LESS. I was thinking, why is he laying all that on Egwene? Tam would never do that.
@@kathryncainmadsen5850 I didn't see that scene like that at all. I didn't think he was guilt tripping her, and Egwene doesn't come out badly for breaking up with Rand for her career from this conversation. He is just telling her that if she is sure of her choice a clean cut is better, Rand would be hurt anyway but it would be faster to go on for everybody, to avoid dragging things out. Which is what happened anyway (despite them being fine at the end of episode 1) and resulted in that whole teenage relationship drama which i would have happily cut.
This is significant character development for both Tam and Egwene. Sadly this feels like the death of a thousand cuts due to arbitrary episode length constraints. We're no longer in the limited realm of broadcast land so not having a few minute leeway to let an episode fully breathe feels almost criminal. I really think this scene should have been kept in to help flesh out Tam and give more of Rand and Egwene's backstory. Also you'd think they would want to keep this to help throw a red herring about Rand's red hair, since if we hear his mom had red hair we don't stop to wonder too closely if maybe he was adopted or an outsider.
Completely agree!
I immediately thought, without even thinking of what they might have cut or could have included, that the pilot episode was too short. It felt almost like 2 episodes crammed into one, or at least what should have been an extra long "full pilot" style episode crammed into minimum possible length. Seeing this beautiful scene as part of the "chaff" that "had to be cut" for length is making me disappointed all over again! XD
Although I'll admit that already knowing the characters makes it hard to evaluate since no one just starting the show for the first time is going to get leaky eyes over that scene...🙃
I wish it had been in there. It makes Tam so much more likable. It makes it easier to understand Rand’s denial that Tam is not his father, and that he is the dragon.
Great video as always 😊
I would have liked him less. All that guilt tripping Egwene? Nah.
Was that denial even in the show? I only remember that angst from the book.
@@kathryncainmadsen5850 it went both ways I think. She started the cuddling post breakup.
@@kathryncainmadsen5850 guilt tripping? he's telling her not to give Rand false hope; if she's going to break up with him, then do it, don't leave things unspoken and unclear. I don't think that's guilt tripping.
The scene would confirm what Rand says in AMOL, when asked about what is different between him and Lews Therin. He says "I was raised better," and I think that's THE point.
Tam is my favorite character in the series. This scene made me so happy/sad.
If they ever do anything else in the world of wot a prequel about tams life would be so awesome he is a real BA
Yeah, I love it. And the actor did an incredible job. I can't wait to see his scenes with Rand in the last few books.
@@bravery12329 I would love a book telling the story of Tam and Abell’s adventures together throughout the series.
The story of a wizened old Blademaster and a horse trading marksman, who’s not too shabby with a quarter staff, set out to face all of the forces of evil itself not for their duty as soldiers or some kingdom but their duty as fathers.
The conversations between Tam and Abell could reveal amazing insight into histories subplots and other side character arcs. The overlapping chapters from the original series would be interesting from their perspectives.
From Eye of the World to A Memory of Light, they were there.
What an amazing read that could be.
thanks for sharing the scene! i didn’t know it came out yet! i liked it a lot! I never really thought about Tam’s wife so it’s nice to think about how life was before she passed.
This was a really good breakdown!! you pointed out a lot of things i didn’t notice on my own. I wish they had included the scene. Thank you for adding the context of where the scene would have happened too!
That "He's all I have" from Tam is beautiful. They need to find a way to put this into a flashback as Egwene makes some future decisions. Loving Tam and knowing how much he loves Rand is CRITICAL to a bookreader like me. I hope they manage this for the show watchers too.
That fan art is incredible! Great video! Made some great connections that I didn't see despite watching the show a million times 🤣
It may be frustrating now, but hopefully if this show does become more popular these deleted scenes can be added back in for people who pick it up later
Great video! I loved the scene too. Someone on Twitter pointed out that it might've been excluded because much of S1 is about Rand and Egwene's will they, won't they dynamic and this scene seems to set up their permanent break up. So it might have been confusing, and then annoying, that their romance continued after this.
FULL SPOILERS
My immediate association with the clean cut was to do with the seals on the DOs prison - whether to repair the weakened seals to break them all and make new ones. Obviously Rand and Egwene had differing opinions on this, and that's reflected in their episode 2 behaviour - Egwene goes Rand for comfort and he pushes her away.
Look at you cranking out a video so fast!!!! Great work!
right? I was like, hey that's lightning speed!
@@koalasedai exactly!
This shows how hungry we all are for more, even Lauren with too much work plus WoT Idol!
@@hiltrud2001 and he does SO MUCH WORK for WOT Idol too!
I agree about all the positives that this scene could've brought to episode 1.
On the other hand, perhaps it would've confused nonreaders to hear about "Rand's mother with blue eyes and red hair" and later in episode 7 made them wonder if that was her. It would've needed additional screen time later on to clarify and expand on this, and Amazon probably felt it wasn't worth committing to that in s1.
I'll agree that's a legitimate concern, but they were hardly opposed to confusing nonreaders with things that need clarifying and expanding in later seasons of the show. I think that either the pre-screening or editing team or whoever got the vibes some people have been getting in the comments (not me) that it made Tam feel like he was guilt tripping Egwene which is definitely not how his character should be portrayed to non-book readers, or they simply were laboring under stupidly over-constrained episode length limitations (which I think is the most likely).
Not sure why streaming shows hold to outdated timing structures especially with the popularity of Korean shows here in the USA that typically run much longer per episode. I’m hoping they will release a director’s cut. But mostly I hope they continue to learn and grow while keeping true to the heart of the narrative.
I think they should have done the learning and growing beforehand and kept the scene and the one from the trailer in!
@@hiltrud2001 that’s not how experience works. At least not for me.
I've long wondered WHY they decide to cut these things, especially if it is already shot and recorded.
A few years ago, sure, when you had to fit a show into a certain slot in the timetable for linear television, but nowadays with VoD and streaming I really don't see why they can't add another 5-10min to one episode if you feel it is needed or for story-building purposes.
For budget reasons to save costs on salaries, VFX, shooting, etc sure. But with everything already done?
I guess there's pacing and to keep audience attention, but a short 1min here or there, especially something as profound and deep like this!
The fact that this scene is so tightly edited and clean implies that it likely was in the pilot right up until nearly the end if post production. So I'm guessing the choice to remove it came very late in the process.
There are a thousand places where such cuts can be made, and with good reason: pacing. There's something to the ebb and flow "feel" of the story as it unfolds, where even a few additional scenes like this slow the story right down and prevent you getting to the next part of the narrative.
I can see why scenes like this get cut. I did the same in my fan edit, which has MASSIVE trims to dialog scenes just like this one, to keep the focus tight and the story moving forward. I think where they should have been sharper with the editing was Ep 4-7, where there's a lot more stopping and talking.
10:05 I think you overlooked another potential foreshadowing that's also a HUGE book spoiler.
** BOOK SPOILERS **
** SERIOUSLY, LEAVE NOW! **
When Herid Fel leaves the note to Rand about "clearing away the rubble", it is Rand's cue to basically break the remaining seals, as he realizes the only way to seal the Dark One back up is to remove the "ragged cut" that were the imperfect seals so that he can make his own "clean cut" with the new seal. Which is also a point of argument between him and Egwene.
Yeah, I thought of this one after I posted the video, haha.
I just finished the last book, 5 minutes ago. And had to come back here to watch the end as I knew what it would be. Thank you for your videos and all i can say for now.. is i’m so happy my favourite character had such an incredible, incredible moment.
I wish they could have kept this in, there was so much in just that one scene that might come in later and could have saved them time explaining. Oh well. Thankfully they shared it.
Damn, it's a shame they cut this. Tam was perfectly cast in the show and although he's a small character in the books every scene we get of him is great. I wanted more.
Even in the books he looms larger than his actual page/"screen"-time because of his influence on Rand and even to a lesser extent Mat/Perrin. At least that was my experience when reading/re-reading.
@@davidlovesyeshua
Me too, a high impact character
I think the more specific foreshadowing was when Tam says that the wheel turns and you get to try again, maybe do a little better. that IMHO is a much bigger book spolier :) (If you've read them you know what I mean, if you haven't then I highly recommend reading them :) )
Such a good video! Thank you UtP for such a fast release!
Great catch with that last one, for me it was a nice foreshadowing for what needs to happen with the seals, and did I catch a idea that would work great for feins of gold as well?
I would have kept this and Nynaeve and Egwene talking in Nynaeve's house (from one of the bts pics) instead of that really weird braid ceremony. Just give me some time to get to know the characters instead of scenes done just to shock for a moment...it's weird how Tam in eotw is constantly in the back of Rand's mind, while in the show is almost non existent. I really hoped when Rand and Nynaeve sat down together in Tar Valon they would talk about it, yet it just ended up being another Egwene's story...
Great scene for Tam. Wish it had been kept (along with some more time for leavetaking).
Spoiler below:
I thought you were going a different way in the spoiler section. To me, it seemed like a comment about Rand and Egwene’s eventual disagreement about the seals. Clean cuts heal better works into the theme there as well.
Anyway, great little scene.
Oooh, good call!
OMG…I can’t believe they cut that!?! S1, could have been soooo much better. What a ‘moment’…definitely should have left that in!
I always love your content, and this deleted scene breakdown is just what I needed to fill in the deep longing for any promotional or marketing content from the Marketing Team behind the TV Series. It’s almost as though they’ve forgotten that there are fans of both the books AND the TV Series.
I’m still waiting for the content Rafe teased at San Diego ComicCon 2022 that was supposed to be released in August. And an actual date for Season 2 would be nice.
Great video!! I hope they come out with and extended DVD series at some point.
That would be awesome
The only reason I can see why they cut this is because Egewenes lines about Rand looking like his mom kind of run counter to what Thom says later in the season. He says something along the lines of "not much to tell where a man is from besides the sound of his tongue and the color of his hair."
If that is true in the TVshow universe, then Rand's mom having red hair would be a talking point and giveaway that Rand is foreign before the show is ready to reveal that.
really wish theyd have found a way to keep it in, its such a great scene.
thanks Lauren - great stuff as always - could of /should have but didn't for reason unknown
Recently did a re-watch of S1 and absolutely this should not have been cut.
Cutting this scene was a travesty, especially in light of your (as always so insightful!) analysis of what it adds. It was only a little over one minute long.
Man, it's so nice being able to watch the whole videos now that I am nearly half way thru re-reading the series
Should have kept it in. The show needs space to breathe. I hope to the gods Amazon realizes a show this big needs more than 8 episodes. 13 would be better. All the lore and magic is a really heavy lift, needs more space to develop.
Glad we got to see it, but I think very properly cut down to the "good morning he's gone " as you note, almost everything else in this scene is shown or said elsewhere. The story about Egwene has confusing information about Kari and doesn't show anything about her (compare with Rand's berry story or Nynaeve's ep 5 story). Plus pacing. Better to show than tell the relationships and character of Tam
That man has such kind eyes. How’d he ever play Roose Bolton? 🥺
Great video! Totally agree with your takes here and it should have been left in! (but we all know episode 1 should have been longer or split into two episodes right?) Thanks!
Teeny weeny other thought that your video made me think of. I wonder if Rand every does get any wounds that are messy and raw.
I hope they stick with the books!
I am hoping we will get to see the extended versions of these episodes. Like LOTR and The Hobbit, when epic stories do not have any breath, they just feel like a video game where characters are running from one location to the next and fighting bigger and bigger bosses. Watching the extended versions of LOTR and The Hobbit are such pleasure compared to the first time watching them in the theatre, which was just exhausting.
So far, the TV series, although not absolutely faithful to the books (and how could it be), is very creative in generating its own flow to turning the wheel.
I wish the scene would have been kept in! As well, it’s such a good foreshadowing of how important Tam is for Rand to remember his humanity right before Rand merges himself with Lews Therin.
Great breakdown! I have some slightly different views but you have made me think more, which I love. I'm still glad it was cut, but glad we have it to nerd out over!
new viewers wouldn't know what Tam means by 'when they were rebuilding the Inn after the fire'. I'm not a huge fan of the scene - I think it confuses that in WoT death is not final, so that confuses me! I dunno. I think things are neater without it.
I also think it confuses things by saying that Rand had Kari's eyes and hair are the same as Rands. She wasn't Aiel, nor confused for one surely.
Kari did have red hair. EotW chapter 16.
@@jenliz6248 yep, so does Elayne :)
@@jenliz6248 Kari was from Caemlyn and the daughter of an Andoran. So red hair, but not the flaming Aiel hair.
@@koalasedai Book doesn’t specify just says red. Elayne is described as golden so often it must be a strawberry blonde. Not that I’ve ever seen strawberry blonde and thought gold!
@@jenliz6248 Elayne had red-gold curls and big blue eyes ... companion
Dang Lauren. That was fast. 😂❤
Interesting, so it means that the show makers already wanted to hint that Rand and Egwene would not be a couple eventually. I think Tam senses that Egwene wants more than settling down with Rand in TR, which is what Rand wants, that's why he is hinting that Egwene should break up with him rather than drag it out and keep giving him false hope.
And I think the fire could be due to channeling, possibly by Nynaeve, possibly by other Wisdom apprentices, because Two Rivers folk have a higher likelihood of being channelers, so it should have more frequent unexpected incidents from wilders. Possibly there is another deleted scene where Moiraine comments that she detects the potential of unexpectedly strong and many channelers than in other towns.
Not just a softer side of Tam, but his deep wisdom.
Totally agreed, they should have allowed the first episode to be about 15 minutes longer. It would have allowed more explanation of the world and would have solved the weird pacing issues. The scene with Tam is so great, I am sad it's not in the final. Maybe one day they'll make a director's cut version of the whole series. ;)
The 2 hour rafe cut pilot should be released! 😁
I saw that scene awhile ago.
The roose is loose
They should have kept this yes. Would it have made a huge difference? No, but it is a good scene - they should have cut the banging scene, which was ridiculous, and kept this.
!!Spoilers for the last book!!
The clean cut of death being better than the ragged one can also be referencing how Rand defeats the dark one. Instead of patching up the ragged holes of the current prison with the failing seals, he makes a clean cut to make the prison anew
Love this! I realized this after I posted the video, I wish I'd included it!
Why do they give a shit about the run time on a streamed show? This was the best scene from the first episode and they cut it?!
Very expensive lanterns or very cheap bracelet. But I guess fenced goods sell for much less unless you have high standing in the Thieves Guild
Haha, it's more likely that Padan Fain swindled Mat.
I like the extra character development but they just did not have the time to spend on it. With the episode length they have to really boil it down to the must have scenes just to tell a narrative that makes sense. They struggled with this in the first season at times imo particularly in that first episode. Really we needed more time with Tam, but something has to drop to fit that in. Perhaps they should have left the Rand Eggy relationship to be fleshed out in the second episode with some road sex or something, or drop the Woman circle stuff.... or something.
They cut it and put the braiding scene and women's circle business in. Just to keep people in the dark about who's the Dragon. TV-politics. No serious reason at all!
I really would like to wait the whole show and all the bickering out and watch it after the last season, but I'm too old!
@@hiltrud2001 I hear you. I liked the first season but to me they made some mistakes with it. How Lan never got any action scenes is one head scratcher. Some of the things they decided to spend the time budget on is another big one, although I get how they fell into that trap. The episode devoted to the warder would be a great idea, but it had to be left for a later season where there is more attachment to the characters, and there is more time to fit it in. After that they need to not have another episode of the quality that episode 8 was released in, (Covid or nucellar war no excuses)
@@smaug1234 exactly!
the biggest issue regarding season 1 is how great it was and how grateful I am they made it - just saying
Tams dialogue about the wheel turning... It would have hit much differently had that deleted scene been included. Had it been included.. you would have a man wrestling with his boy becoming a man. Perhaps in the two rivers as a father.. there's no exact point when your son is considered a man. But when its known your son is the same age as an accepted in the women's circle... he knows pain is coming for Rand. But we don't get that. We get a sad and kindly old man fumbling around about the wheel. They literally cut out a scene with huge context to Tam in later scenes. Perhaps its ok they did. Its hard to tell what scene they used that time for.
Amazing scene.
I'm glad this was left out, it only serves to emasculate an otherwise stoic rock of a character. Emotions are important, that's one of the things Rand has to contend with as the series moves forward (insert Nietzsche quote), but so is a sense of duty, and doing what needs to be done. “In war, you say a prayer for your dead and ride on, because there is always another fight over the next horizon." - Book Lan
Are you suggesting that Tam showing love and tenderness for his son is not manly?
@@UnravelingthePattern
No, showing love for your son does not make you "unmanly".
I'm saying that he is a character with many layers, who choses his words carefully, and doesn't speak his mind often. This ultimately gives his words and actions more meaning/impact when he choses to share them.
This scene would've depicted him as somewhat weepy right off the hop, when that is not the case in the books. Tam is a slow burn of a character, the more than it is revealed, the more you realize that still waters run deep.
this really helps to cancel out his got character, they should have left it in.
In the books the Inn has stables for its horses, I wonder if the cauthens lost the majority of their horses in the fire. I think the scene also shows that the two rivers are used to rebuilding the Inn, so despite Moiraine bringing it down they will be fine. I so hope we get a directors cut of the series .This has made me want to do another rewatch.
Its sad that they take out the scene, I think it could be a good easter egg for the ones that already read the books 😅
Spoiler of the books!!!!!
(Not sure how I should tag spoiler, sorry, hope this is enough)
When I read the last book and egwene die, I was like noooooo, why she but then it was like its a very good sacrifice 😢
They should have kept it. But Prime is Prime...
It's unfortunate how they made season 1. I won't get into it, but this storyline doesn't parallel the book all that well. The Cauthon family, Perrin story, Padan Fain, etc. I could go on and on.
At least GoT did a better job following the story. TBH, they portray doom and gloom with little or no humor/levity. Based on the path season 1 took, I am not sure if they can recover the story line.
The chances of Kari having red hair and blue eyes in the Two Rivers is suspect…and that’s all I’m going to say on that matter 😉
She was described that way in the books though.
I am on book eight and was starting to get burn-out as Jordan seems to like to repeat descriptions of things... Thank you for the Spoiler, as now I cant wait to see/read the final battle!! Right now Eqwene is trying to take hold of the Hall and staying for a month on the border or Andor resting. ...
I'm sorry I spoiled it, but I promise it's worth it if you get through Crossroads of Twilight. The last 4 books are a fast rollercoaster and totally worth it!
@@UnravelingthePattern I like spoilers lol And I do wish the show was more like the book but am glad it introduced me to the books.
Definitely wish that scene had been in there!
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In terms of foreshadowing for Egwene's death the other moment I liked in the show was when Moiraine was telling the story of Manetherin the camera focuses on Egwene when Moiraine is talking about the queen who took in too much of the power and let loose destroying everything. Just a nice touch!
Spoilers dude.
I am glad they cut it. We shouldn't be encouraged to dislike Egwene for choosing her career over her man. When REALLY it's the culture who FORCES her to make a choice between them. If they rewrote it instead to remove Tam laying guilt on her, I'd like it.
Great point! But I don't think he was discouraging her, I think he was encouraging her to be honest with Rand.
@@UnravelingthePattern I strongly disagree. He was telling her not to break Rand's heart..Period. AND using his wife's kindness to her as a kind of implied quid pro quo. Believe me, I don't think Tam would do that and I think that's a big reason it was cut.
@Kathryn Cain Madsen This is a great insight but that's not how I read it at all. As a father of teenagers myself, I only saw a father wanting what was best for his son. Not somebody who was intentionally trying to discourage or be unsupportive of Egwene. It felt the opposite of "toxic masculinity" to me, as he was just a loving father looking out for his son and willing to show emotion. That said, I respect your opinion very much and appreciate your insight, because I could be very wrong and this very well could be one of the reasons they cut the scene. It just never occurred to me that this was the subtext of the scene. I'm thankful for viewpoints like yours that help me to see the world through different lenses because it enriches me and expands my understanding. Thank you for sharing!
@@UnravelingthePattern I do think it's hard to detach the actual script from the likability and delivery of the actor so I'll say this. That's how I read the script, not the delivery. I see what you are saying you get out of it from the actor. Certainly, his intention is to protect Rand from hurt. But, I still think the actual script means that Egwene is being asked to make the sacrifice. The fact that Wisdoms don't marry is one of Jordan's inventions. That I get. But Tam never attempted to sway her in any way in the books. He wouldn't.
@@kathryncainmadsen5850 Totally fair. There are a lot of liberties taken in the show related to what characters "would" or "wouldn't" do. I think loving his son and showing emotion is absolutely in-character. I agree though that intentionally manipulating Egwene is very out-of-character, which is why I think it didn't even occur to me that he was doing that. Thanks again for the great insight and discussion!
Rafe must have thought it was too close to something that actually occured in the book and had it removed. Nevermind, of course it wasn't.
I am a book reader of this series from the day the first one was released. This live action kind of had me raw. I feel they should have had it stay. It definitely would have helped a lot. Im trying to just forget books for a while and try and enjoy the live........ I was hoping for better but I saw them rip up Terry Goodkinds work with Legend of the seeker disaster
To bad the show runners made a mockery of the books
If you like ANYTHING about the WoT show.... how are you a fan of Jordan's at all... they crapped all over his brilliant work...
Are you really that closed minded? I love the books. I like the show. Get over it.
EDIT: Just to clarify, you don't have to like the show, that's totally fine. But to assume that nobody else can possibly like it because you don't is closed-minded. Also, I deleted your follow-up comment because you called people names in the comment, which is against my RUclips comment rules.
This show has been such a disappointing let down.
should have deleted all the scenes
They should delete the whole show. It's woke garbage and it doesn't do the books justice.
I hope this show is canceled after season 2. Nothing like Tam being worse than Nyneave at fighting Trollocks
I hope comments like this stop on my channel.
@@UnravelingthePattern if we're lucky the show will end
The entire season was rushed. Lets not even start on the "woke" interpretation of many key scenes from 'The Eye Of the World'.
What does "woke" mean to you in this context exactly?
@@UnravelingthePattern great question - woke means in any context, the idea of forcing a progressive ideology onto a topic. Originally woke meant, to be awake and understanding the oppression that is faced - in reference to racism in America. However, that term has been rightfully repurposed to poke fun at the so called 'anti-racist, anti-sexist' ideologues of the American left who are in fact not actually free of racism themselves. The Amazon season one, introduced lesbian affairs needlessly and implied homosexual affairs as well. The Books themselves speak of the Green Ajah as having multiple wardens, but makes no illusions or tips of the hat to homosexuality. The WOT books are pure in that sense not being tainted by progressive cultural idea's. Despite the official explanation of the reason for the ending of season 1, Id say it was socially "better" aka woke, to have the women destroy the Trolloc army, versus rightfully having Rand do it. There was a cost efficient way to have Rand stick to the book. But Hollywood never fails to insert their progressive ethics into everything they touch. Hollywood is Woke embodied. Thats all. Just one fans opinion.
I really dont like the casting for Egwene,..i cant look past her nose. Talk about superficial,..but there you have it. Besides, she's not as I imagined she'd look in the books.
Extremely superficial. This is one of those comments that should stay inside your head and not be shared, lol.
@@UnravelingthePattern Meh, it's supposed to entertain me, not forcing me to be PC - besides, she knew she was going to be on TV,..couldn't she get that mole removed,..or digitally edit it out,..as i said,..superficial,..but am i wrong?
Love the books. The show is on par with Xena or Sword of Truth. It's just a laughably bad interpretation