I agree with most of the information in this video, but there are also a few mistakes. - The Leica M2 does not have the 135mm frame lines the M3 has. It has only 35mm, 50mm and 90mm. The 135mm frame lines came with the original M4. - The rangefinder flair problem was introduced with the Leica M4-2 because an internal condenser lens in the range finder was removed to save some costs. However, this is not caused by the missing coating of the rangefinder classes. The M2, M3, and M4 did have this internal condenser lens in the rangefinder. The MP and the later M7 cameras reintroduced this condenser lens and the coating. - Your M4-P does not have a zinc top plate! Only the very last versions had that shortly before the release of the original M6. The M4-Ps with the recessed viewfinder windows do have a brass top plate. The weight difference comes from different or removed internal parts, such as the missing self-timer. The gear in the M4-2 has been changed from brass to steel to support motor drives. - The MP, on the other hand, does not have the deep-drawn sheet metal top plate that the older cameras have. On the MP, the top plate is milled from a billet block of brass. It is more robust and precise than the deep-drawn sheet metal top plate, which also explains a bit about the weight difference. But I also have some comments: - Fun fact about the M2: You do not need to reset the counter if you use an M2 with a 36-image film. Usually, you can make up to 38 images and need 2 strokes to load the film. I never thought about that until someone told me recently, so it's not a huge disadvantage of the M2. - The M3 is often considered the best M Camera ever, but former Leitz employees said it was costly to produce. So Leitz tried to save money on almost every model since the M3, starting with the M2. But they improved the camera a lot with the MP. I'm a member of Leica Historica, and we had some discussions at a meeting about the frames around the rangefinder classes of the M3 being removed because of the cost or because of a change in design. I personally like the cleaner design that the M2 introduced. I'm sorry I corrected you! I have an M2, M3, M4-2, and an MP. I mostly use my MP due to the better viewfinder and the light meter. My MP was from the cancelled a la carte program in black chrome and has only 3 frame lines for 35mm, 50mm, and 90mm, like the M2. This combo is really good for me because I use 35mm a lot, and the frame lines are not scattered.
Great video Matt! Also a side note regarding the older rangefinder patch is the two small “bumps” in the rectangle represent how much you can miss focusing the rf patch at f2.8 (smaller bump) and at f5.6 (larger bump) but still hit the intended target.
Hey, don't sweat it correcting Matt. As he says, he has a 'small brain' and doesn't _always_ get everything just right! haha And anyone like yourself who sits around a Leica Historica meeting and talks about all things Leica is always welcome here in the comment section adding to everyone's knowledge base. So thanks for that.
Thanks! Sorry about the M2 framelines, I know better than that. I always forget as I rarely shoot 135 or the M2. Yes agreed about the condenser in the VF. Older models (2,3,4 are fine as you say). Cool tip for M2 users with counter! Yes the M3 is over engineered so that's why it's still the best for me (and why they won't make similar now as too expensive). I don't agree with my M4-P have brass top and bottom plates though. Both of mine are well used and they is no sign of any brass showing anywhere. I know there were lots of versions. (You have a cool MP btw! Great job finding that!!) Nice.
Brilliant presentation by the most trusted auditor to the board. You covered everything and held my interest all the way through even though I do not shoot film. You are the master. Thanks for another top presentation.
So glad to see that you bought a proper one (a silver one); but then of course you would, you know what you’re doing. Great video, look forward to more on the (proper) MP!
I have M 2 and 3s as well as M4p. Bought these on your recommendations and happy with all. But I am amazed the build quality of the 3 and 2 compared to the 4P. I use shoe mount light meters and am happy with them rather than a battery in the camera.
Thanks Gary, yes you really feel the different yes. The M4-P is my workhorse so I have no issues and it gives me 28+75mm + hotshoe and lighter so it compliments the older cameras.
Hi Matt. I have a Leica M3 double stroke from 1957 that I'll never sell. The family have been told it's to stay after I kick it (whenever that might be) and pass to whoever might have an interest in using it and to continue this until it gives up the ghost itself. It's said that in life you need three things - a good doctor, a clever accountant and a forgiving priest but you actually need a fourth - a professional camera service guy (or girl). Happily I do and my M3 has been fettled to top drawer function and wears either a Summicron 50mm f2 v3 (yeah, I know, the 'black sheep') or a 90mm f2.8 Elmarit v1. The thing's just such an absolute joy and an everyday carry, permanently loaded, usually Rollei Retro 400S or Kodak Tri-X both rated at 800 ISO and dev'd in HC-110. If I ever look for another Leica 'M' it'll be another M3 for sure.
Great comparison, thank you! A lot of fresh infos for me. So a M3 with 35mm framelines would be perfect for me.... Waiting for your video about M4, M6, etc.
The MP really is the zeitgeist of Leica design, with the modern sleeker front windows without the classic protrusion like the M6/M10, but the clean and flat top deck like the classic M3, and old style crank and advance, on top of that, the brass weight! Good job on snipping that one, Matt!
Hey Matt, Great comparison video as always! Not sure if you’ve done a review on a M7 in the past, if not it would be very interesting to know your thoughts on this often overlooked variant. All the very best, Ron
Got the M-A. Wanted some distilled purity. Black chrome with no logo, dear god it's perfect. 35mm Lanthar main, 28mm mistress, an LLL Elcan 50 on the way.
M5 user here. It’s great if you don’t mind the slightly larger size and heavier weight. And the fact that you have to be mindful of using collapsible lenses as you will damage the meter arm if you cock the shutter with the lens collapsed. Pros are: -the overhanging shutter speed dial that allows you to adjust the shutter speed while looking through the viewfinder (which displays the shutter speed selected) -the light meter display which uses two moving needles. They shows a correct exposure when they intersect and form a “X” -Hot shoe if you need to use flash. Cons are: -Light meters don’t work in many of these cameras (and I feel like this is the main reason to get this camera) and the arm that moves the metering cell in place to measure exposure will eventually fail. That’s a costly repair if it can even be fixed. -Lack of knowledgeable technicians who can work on these (Don Goldberg and Sherry Krauter being the ones that comes to mind) -The two strap lugs on one side of the body on the earlier ones can be a deal breaker for some. If you can find a recently serviced one with working meter for a good price, it may be worthwhile. A cheaper alternative would be the Leica CL but in a much smaller form factor and not built to the same quality. Cheers, KP
As someone who likes to shoot 35mm or wider and wanted a non-flaring viewfinder, the MP was the ideal choice. Ended up with an early MP in black paint with the M6 ISO dial. I do want to try a later MP at some point though since it seems they have a shorter advance lever throw than mine. Great video. Any chance we could get a video on your favorite 35mm film stocks? Though as a mainly B&W shooter perhaps it would be too short of a video.
Great. Some say early MP are better made FYI. I've done written reviews on film stocks on mrleica.com but I'm not the best person to ask as I am happy with most decent B&W films - Kodak, Ilford, and even cheaper ones like Foma.
Interesting vid Matt, I just weighed my M3 & M4-P. My M3 is a dual stroke & weighs 10g more than yours, same with the M4-P, about 10g more. The dual range Summicron is a brick compared to my Canadian built later Summicron, `80`s version.
On that last shot looks like your MP is full, i wonder if you can get the film out! On a serious note yes I love my M3 but I would love to add an M2 someday because of the lower magnification. And another thing I just thought about the newer models like MP do have a rubber ring around the eyepiece not to damage glasses.... I have to remember to get one of those for my M3 before I completely ruin my spectacles hah....
Years ago, when I was shopping for a Leica 35mm rangefinder, I considered the MP, M2, and M6. I did not consider the M3 because I knew I would buy a 35mm lens and I knew that the M3 did not handle 35mm lenses well.
Hey Matt✌ Perfect video and thanks for showing us the information about the three models 👌👌I wouldn't want to be without my two M3's DS/SS either as I always have one of the two with me as an EDC for the 240. The feeling of history and technology alone is at least what counts for me, as well as in use 😉Which of the three is your absolute favourite if you had to choose? If you were given the option of one of the three👍With 35mm you can also take great pictures on the M3 even without the additional viewfinder, e.g. the Summaron 2.8/35 or the Summicron 35 regardless of which version, but I'm sure you know that yourself as the 50mm frame lines do have a little space at the top, I've done this several times and it's worked very well. The 40 Nokton Classic 1.4/40 S.C is also a great focal length for the M3. I think I'll have to get rid of my 240 because the focus doesn't match the EVF2 - there are deviations. I really like using the M3 and it's absolutely easy to handle and use😉Super great video and thank you✌ Here's to many more videos like this. Lg Anderl
If you do not need a selftimer, then early versions of the M2 do not have a selftimer which to my fingers always was in the way and I accidently started it.
I would go for the modern Leica MP because it still gets produced and Leica can repair it while maintaing the original parts. The modern Leica will last longer in opinion.
To my knowledge, th quick loading system came to life course American army placed an order of around 2000 Leicas M2, but with a loading system which an idiot could use. Army eventually declined ht order, but Leica kept that film loading system...
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7:33 the M2 have 3 framelines 35, 50 and 90mm, not for 135mm !
I agree with most of the information in this video, but there are also a few mistakes.
- The Leica M2 does not have the 135mm frame lines the M3 has. It has only 35mm, 50mm and 90mm. The 135mm frame lines came with the original M4.
- The rangefinder flair problem was introduced with the Leica M4-2 because an internal condenser lens in the range finder was removed to save some costs. However, this is not caused by the missing coating of the rangefinder classes. The M2, M3, and M4 did have this internal condenser lens in the rangefinder. The MP and the later M7 cameras reintroduced this condenser lens and the coating.
- Your M4-P does not have a zinc top plate! Only the very last versions had that shortly before the release of the original M6. The M4-Ps with the recessed viewfinder windows do have a brass top plate. The weight difference comes from different or removed internal parts, such as the missing self-timer. The gear in the M4-2 has been changed from brass to steel to support motor drives.
- The MP, on the other hand, does not have the deep-drawn sheet metal top plate that the older cameras have. On the MP, the top plate is milled from a billet block of brass. It is more robust and precise than the deep-drawn sheet metal top plate, which also explains a bit about the weight difference.
But I also have some comments:
- Fun fact about the M2: You do not need to reset the counter if you use an M2 with a 36-image film. Usually, you can make up to 38 images and need 2 strokes to load the film. I never thought about that until someone told me recently, so it's not a huge disadvantage of the M2.
- The M3 is often considered the best M Camera ever, but former Leitz employees said it was costly to produce. So Leitz tried to save money on almost every model since the M3, starting with the M2. But they improved the camera a lot with the MP. I'm a member of Leica Historica, and we had some discussions at a meeting about the frames around the rangefinder classes of the M3 being removed because of the cost or because of a change in design. I personally like the cleaner design that the M2 introduced.
I'm sorry I corrected you! I have an M2, M3, M4-2, and an MP. I mostly use my MP due to the better viewfinder and the light meter. My MP was from the cancelled a la carte program in black chrome and has only 3 frame lines for 35mm, 50mm, and 90mm, like the M2. This combo is really good for me because I use 35mm a lot, and the frame lines are not scattered.
Great video Matt!
Also a side note regarding the older rangefinder patch is the two small “bumps” in the rectangle represent how much you can miss focusing the rf patch at f2.8 (smaller bump) and at f5.6 (larger bump) but still hit the intended target.
Hey, don't sweat it correcting Matt. As he says, he has a 'small brain' and doesn't _always_ get everything just right! haha
And anyone like yourself who sits around a Leica Historica meeting and talks about all things Leica is always welcome here in the comment section adding to everyone's knowledge base. So thanks for that.
Thanks! Sorry about the M2 framelines, I know better than that. I always forget as I rarely shoot 135 or the M2. Yes agreed about the condenser in the VF. Older models (2,3,4 are fine as you say). Cool tip for M2 users with counter! Yes the M3 is over engineered so that's why it's still the best for me (and why they won't make similar now as too expensive). I don't agree with my M4-P have brass top and bottom plates though. Both of mine are well used and they is no sign of any brass showing anywhere. I know there were lots of versions. (You have a cool MP btw! Great job finding that!!) Nice.
That's super interesting thanks! I've never heard about the bumps before.
Thanks! Yes sorry for the M2 frames "speako" .. yes every please always feel free and comfortable to correct me in any video!
Brilliant presentation by the most trusted auditor to the board. You covered everything and held my interest all the way through even though I do not shoot film. You are the master. Thanks for another top presentation.
Thanks Sandy, very kind. This isn't my most interesting video for mass appeal but hopefully it will help those looking to buy these cameras.
So glad to see that you bought a proper one (a silver one); but then of course you would, you know what you’re doing. Great video, look forward to more on the (proper) MP!
Stay tuned and don't hate me!
I have M 2 and 3s as well as M4p. Bought these on your recommendations and happy with all. But I am amazed the build quality of the 3 and 2 compared to the 4P. I use shoe mount light meters and am happy with them rather than a battery in the camera.
Thanks Gary, yes you really feel the different yes. The M4-P is my workhorse so I have no issues and it gives me 28+75mm + hotshoe and lighter so it compliments the older cameras.
Excellent overview Matt. In the slim to non existent chances of me buying a Leica film camera, this would be go to guide. Keep up your good work.
Thanks Stefan!
Thank you, good video, I love the detail; it helps me as I shop for older Leica's
Thanks thanks Bill, yes that was my hope. We all need these videos when looking to buy.
11:06 Early M3 had two-stroke advance, but many of those have been converted to single-stroke advance.
Yes, I own both DS and SS
Now that was a great explanation 🎉
Thanks Rob, quite techy and not for mass appeal but I hope useful for those interested!
Hi Matt. I have a Leica M3 double stroke from 1957 that I'll never sell. The family have been told it's to stay after I kick it (whenever that might be) and pass to whoever might have an interest in using it and to continue this until it gives up the ghost itself.
It's said that in life you need three things - a good doctor, a clever accountant and a forgiving priest but you actually need a fourth - a professional camera service guy (or girl). Happily I do and my M3 has been fettled to top drawer function and wears either a Summicron 50mm f2 v3 (yeah, I know, the 'black sheep') or a 90mm f2.8 Elmarit v1.
The thing's just such an absolute joy and an everyday carry, permanently loaded, usually Rollei Retro 400S or Kodak Tri-X both rated at 800 ISO and dev'd in HC-110.
If I ever look for another Leica 'M' it'll be another M3 for sure.
Thanks for sharing Steven, nice! Yes I love the M3 the most too, 100%
Fit & finish is very important to me, so I'd pick MP. But my all time fav is M7 Silver with MP finder.
Nice! I still need to review a M7
@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom the best part of M7 is ease of use, meaning you get way more shots with properly exposed photos.
8:38 M2 and later models had the frames designed so those who wore glasses easier could use the viewfinder.
Yes M2 and later are better for 50mm + glasses I hear (vs M3).
I bought the re-issue M6 as I’ve been using the M4 for the last 50 years. I’m used to the M4 rewind crank and double film advance..
Nice! Yes I know some love the M4/M6 rewind crank.
For the M3, would there be any advantage/disadvantage between the single stroke and double stroke models?
I own both. The DS feels nice but I miss shots as all other cameras only need 1 advance (so I use the SS).
Great comparison, thank you! A lot of fresh infos for me. So a M3 with 35mm framelines would be perfect for me.... Waiting for your video about M4, M6, etc.
Thanks Tobi! Yes Thomas uses M3 + 35mm lens with goggles to get around issue of no built in 35mm framelines.
The MP really is the zeitgeist of Leica design, with the modern sleeker front windows without the classic protrusion like the M6/M10, but the clean and flat top deck like the classic M3, and old style crank and advance, on top of that, the brass weight! Good job on snipping that one, Matt!
Thanks Rex! Yes it is old meets new Leica!
Hey Matt,
Great comparison video as always!
Not sure if you’ve done a review on a M7 in the past, if not it would be very interesting to know your thoughts on this often overlooked variant.
All the very best,
Ron
Thanks Ron! Yes I rarely mention the M5 and M7 as they interest me less but I'll try to cover them one day for completeness.
M4-P and M4-2 are generally brass top plates. The late models with smooth viewfinder bezels are zinc, like the M6.
Thanks for the info! I always thought my M4-P was zinc.
Got the M-A. Wanted some distilled purity. Black chrome with no logo, dear god it's perfect. 35mm Lanthar main, 28mm mistress, an LLL Elcan 50 on the way.
How about the M5?
M5 user here. It’s great if you don’t mind the slightly larger size and heavier weight. And the fact that you have to be mindful of using collapsible lenses as you will damage the meter arm if you cock the shutter with the lens collapsed.
Pros are:
-the overhanging shutter speed dial that allows you to adjust the shutter speed while looking through the viewfinder (which displays the shutter speed selected)
-the light meter display which uses two moving needles. They shows a correct exposure when they intersect and form a “X”
-Hot shoe if you need to use flash.
Cons are:
-Light meters don’t work in many of these cameras (and I feel like this is the main reason to get this camera) and the arm that moves the metering cell in place to measure exposure will eventually fail. That’s a costly repair if it can even be fixed.
-Lack of knowledgeable technicians who can work on these (Don Goldberg and Sherry Krauter being the ones that comes to mind)
-The two strap lugs on one side of the body on the earlier ones can be a deal breaker for some.
If you can find a recently serviced one with working meter for a good price, it may be worthwhile. A cheaper alternative would be the Leica CL but in a much smaller form factor and not built to the same quality.
Cheers,
KP
The M5 takes the same photos but I prefer the looks of other Ms!
Great point on collapsible lenses, thanks for that for M5 readers.
Ah, the M5 aka the Red Headed Step Child of the Leica line up.
I love mine.
Do you know if any collapsible lenses can be used on the m5?
As someone who likes to shoot 35mm or wider and wanted a non-flaring viewfinder, the MP was the ideal choice. Ended up with an early MP in black paint with the M6 ISO dial. I do want to try a later MP at some point though since it seems they have a shorter advance lever throw than mine. Great video. Any chance we could get a video on your favorite 35mm film stocks? Though as a mainly B&W shooter perhaps it would be too short of a video.
Great. Some say early MP are better made FYI. I've done written reviews on film stocks on mrleica.com but I'm not the best person to ask as I am happy with most decent B&W films - Kodak, Ilford, and even cheaper ones like Foma.
Interesting vid Matt, I just weighed my M3 & M4-P. My M3 is a dual stroke & weighs 10g more than yours, same with the M4-P, about 10g more. The dual range Summicron is a brick compared to my Canadian built later Summicron, `80`s version.
Thanks! Yes I know there were so many variations across each model over the years. Yes the DR is a brick! I have it. (Nice brick!)
Very good n detail compare。
Thank you!
On that last shot looks like your MP is full, i wonder if you can get the film out! On a serious note yes I love my M3 but I would love to add an M2 someday because of the lower magnification. And another thing I just thought about the newer models like MP do have a rubber ring around the eyepiece not to damage glasses.... I have to remember to get one of those for my M3 before I completely ruin my spectacles hah....
Haha thanks Thomas, yes get a rubber eye piece thingy!
7:33 the M2 have 3 framelines 35, 50 and 90mm, not for 135mm !
Maybe Matt's M2 has been modified/repaired with an M4 range finder which has 35, 50, 90 and 135mm frame lines.
@@kevinparkes417 Yes, maybe, but standard none M2 had 4 framelines.
Yes sorry I totally forgot this. I need to use my M2 more! Thanks
Nice idea but sadly not, I just did a 'speako' and said it wrong, sorry!
It’s a shame that Leica doesn’t restore the recessed windows on the front of MP, M-A and other digital Ms like M2/3/4
Yes I like the look of the M3 recessed finder too.
Would love to see a comparison with M-A, m4 and m5
M-A I plan to do, I can talk through the M4 and why the M2 is probably better. M5 not such when I'll get to cover those.
Years ago, when I was shopping for a Leica 35mm rangefinder, I considered the MP, M2, and M6.
I did not consider the M3 because I knew I would buy a 35mm lens and I knew that the M3 did not handle 35mm lenses well.
Yes I see why 35mm lens users skip over the M3.
Hey Matt✌
Perfect video and thanks for showing us the information about the three models 👌👌I wouldn't want to be without my two M3's DS/SS either as I always have one of the two with me as an EDC for the 240. The feeling of history and technology alone is at least what counts for me, as well as in use 😉Which of the three is your absolute favourite if you had to choose? If you were given the option of one of the three👍With 35mm you can also take great pictures on the M3 even without the additional viewfinder, e.g. the Summaron 2.8/35 or the Summicron 35 regardless of which version, but I'm sure you know that yourself as the 50mm frame lines do have a little space at the top, I've done this several times and it's worked very well. The 40 Nokton Classic 1.4/40 S.C is also a great focal length for the M3. I think I'll have to get rid of my 240 because the focus doesn't match the EVF2 - there are deviations. I really like using the M3 and it's absolutely easy to handle and use😉Super great video and thank you✌ Here's to many more videos like this.
Lg Anderl
Thanks Anderl! M3 100% - sometimes I use 35mm finder on the top
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom well, I wasn't even that far off the mark👌
If you do not need a selftimer, then early versions of the M2 do not have a selftimer which to my fingers always was in the way and I accidently started it.
Yes, great tip, you can get M2 with and without timers.
I owned a Black Paint MP and it is such a beautiful camera. I ended up selling it because I just don't shoot film anymore.
Nice! Sorry to hear you had to sell it.
13:33 a 135-36 film weighs 29g
Great knowledge! Mine didn't have film loaded.
Indeed, however, I have the MP 0.58 🙂
Hey Eric! Nice :) I'll mention the finder options when I cover vs the M6.
If I was going to shoot film. This would be the camera. Highly unlikely though.
Thanks ..and never say never! (One of my Patreons recently moved to film and now loves it).
I would go for the modern Leica MP because it still gets produced and Leica can repair it while maintaing the original parts. The modern Leica will last longer in opinion.
Thanks. Repair guys all confirm older M3/M2 are better built but yes you get warranty with new ones.
To my knowledge, th quick loading system came to life course American army placed an order of around 2000 Leicas M2, but with a loading system which an idiot could use. Army eventually declined ht order, but Leica kept that film loading system...
Ah that's interesting, thanks for sharing that!
Still dreaming about owning a m3
They'll always be around, they go on forever!