When told in chronological order, the story feels much better paced, going back and forth from Ellie and Abby's story during the 3 days in Seattle, allowing you to get attached to both sides. It's harder to do that for a game, but for a TV show it could work perfectly.
I'd have to disagree. Telling the story entirely in chronological order would actually ruin the ending. I can understand jumping back and forth between Ellie and Abby in an episode to concurrently show off what's going on during their day in Seattle, but the flashbacks have to remain flashbacks. If we see Joel and Ellie's relationship deteriorate then see her try to forgive Joel before he's killed, and then experience the meat of the story, then none of it will work. It'll be obvious to us why Ellie is doing what she's doing before she even realizes it for herself. Joel and Ellie's final conversation won't hit anywhere near as hard as it does in the game because we wouldn't have been through hell and back to earn that one ounce of kindness the game throws at us. A big part of Part 2's themes is exploring PTSD and trauma, and I honestly think the disjointed timeline of the narrative actually functions to feed into that. Time doesn't flow properly when you're dealing with grief and trauma. It can stay stagnant and jump around as your mind wanders, trying to ask all sorts of things like "where did it all go wrong," "why," and then linger on any what-ifs. The game (in my opinion) so fantastically puts you in Ellie's shoes. You are right there with her in all of this, even when playing as Abby. Afterall, they are two sides of the same coin. But I find that jumping around in time is essential for this story. You lose a lot of impact if you drastically reorganize any of the story.
@@ChristianJayTheCTrain I agree with the flashbacks I personally thought they worked really well, and those Ellie and Joel moments hit pretty hard. maybe they could have been reshuffled, though. I think they could be incorporated into the story chronologically effectively, some of them, but I actually like the ending scenes a lot, so I don't see the structure of the Ellie and Joel parts changing very much, but I really think they should've cut between Ellie and Abby much more frequently.
@@ChristianJayTheCTrain I absolutely agree that the flashbacks need to stay as flashbacks, maybe chronologically wasn't the right word in that regard. Instead, I think Ellie and Abby's timeline in SEATTLE should run concurrent with one another to make that section a bit more digestible. You made some great points
the point of spending hours to get medicine for Yara wasn’t just to save her, it was to show Abby finding new purpose in life with Lev after she killed Joel. she destroyed her relationship with Owen after becoming so consumed with revenge, lost all of her friends after abandoning the WLF, and completely gave up on the Fireflies. it was never just a “fetch quest,” it was an intentional narrative decision. Yara died soon afterwards to both raise the stakes and to completely sever Lev’s last remaining connection to the Seraphites. not to mention Yara being Lev’s only caretaker. after everything, it was literally just him and Abby.
That's a good point, but to me it still wasn't as fun to PLAY as Ellie's section. Of course, this won't matter in an adaptation since we would just be watching it play out on a tv screen.
Exactly, and personally for me, I had more FUN playing Abby's part. Overall I think the game is a masterclass of writing. I'm glad it's so controversial we'll be talking about it for generations to come.
Honestly I think that part 2 will do well as tv just for the fact that people are more use to different perspectives in shows than in video games especially if it plays Abby’s part first but cut’s to Ellie’s side after jole dies cus I feel like it would give everyone that doesn’t know anything about part 2 a better chance to get attached to Abby like the devs wanted
I actually think that would go against what the devs actually wanted. I think the reason why the devs didn't give us time with Abby before she killed Joel is so that we could have that HUGE HATE that we would have to overcome as the game continued. If we had time to familiarize with her beforehand than it wouldn't have the same impact when you finally realise you don't want both women to continue suffering at the end.
@@bug688 absolutely, they were trying to cause all sorts of emotions at once and throughout every turn of the game people don't understand the way they did it was on purpose to make us pissed off, Neil literally said "We want to push you into hate and see if we can pull you back again."
@@bug688 Yep, there's no question that was deliberate. Unfortunately, the writers didn't quite have the chops to sell it for much of the audience - and it definitely didn't help that they switched perspectives by aborting the climax of Ellie's campaign. I've always thought it would have been way better if, after Ellie returned to the theater, rather than having Abby attack them, we just have the camera pan out from the theater on ground level, only for a combat boot to step in between the camera and theater, and THEN switch to Abby's campaign. It would have left enough suspense for the player to keep it in the back of their mind, without preemptively positioning them to be frustrated at the WRITERS. Abby's campaign does not at all benefit from going in there already expecting the writers to jerk you around as they see fit. Makes it harder to overlook things like the overuse of coincidences and the speedrun of her overnight ride or die bond with Lev.
Season 1 of HBO's The Last of Us showed us the amount of depth the team is willing to give to characters that are already set to die in the game, so i got my hopes real high for how they'll explore each and every one of TLOU Part 2's side characters before their eventual demise.
The thing about Part II is that it felt more like a novel than Part I. You had two different perspectives happening at the same time, plus flashbacks of their lives at key intervals. That benefits a TV structure more than gaming, where players need to physically play through multiple sequence/set pieces that start and stop at random.
I'm like 95% sure they'll do it chronologically, jumping back and forth between Ellie and Abby. That is logically the only way it'll work as a TV show. Season 2 will cover what happens during the four year time skip, introducing Abby as a new sympathetic protagonist who ambiguously just lost her father, using Ellie and Abby's 'flashback' scenes as the foundations for backstory on some of the minor characters, Abby arriving in Seattle for the first time, being introduced to the WLF/Scar conflict etc, while Ellie grows closer to Dina and Jesse while pulling away from Joel in Jackson. And the season ends with Joel's death, the reveal of Abby's past as a firefly, and Ellie leaving for Seattle. Then Season 3 will start with her arriving in Seattle and cover the three days from both of their perspectives simultaneously. That's the best way to cover this story for TV; ironically enough, by removing the nonlinear flashback structure from the game, that they had added on to season 1 of the show.
Ooh I was thinking about how they could use the Abby flashbacks in season 2 without ruining the twist when Joel dies, but keeping the loss of her dad ambiguous until Joel's death would be so good.
I really hope they do it like this, I think a lot of the characters felt a bit "flat", like Dina, Jesse, etc, and even more on Abby's side. A season of building up all their different relationships and also getting to know Abby more would make the story of Part II much more engaging and impactful. Imagine the difference in impact between Jesse's death in the game and Jesse's death in season 3 of the show after we've gotten to know him during season 2.
That would make the season 50% made up filler, and Craig already said that’s not going to happen. Especially if your then going to essentially cram the entire plot of the second game into a third season.
I think it will do better as TV as well. My only wonder is if they’ll maybe add more flashbacks with Joel and Ellie, given the great chemistry and real life friendship between Pedro and Bella, and to have Pedro in the show more since he’s so popular as an actor. That also said, I truly hope the actress who is cast as Abby does not get the unnecessary hate in the show that she got in the game-it’s so vile and unfair to them-they’re playing a character! I think I have read that the part 2 story will be multiple seasons, so that will allow more expansion (like they did with season 1/part 1).
Agreed! And I think the show would benefit from more flashbacks to drive home their relationship, since we only got nine episodes worth in the first season. No matter what they do though, I'm cautiously optimistic for season 2 and/or 3.
It was confirmed it will run for two seasons although there’s speculation it could run more than that. The only concern I have is the moving away from the games and continuing on which generally hasn’t gone well for other shows that have done it. Edit: I just saw an article where it said season 2 will be “ different “ from the games and will span multiple seasons. I think if they can really dive into the story/characters the show will be better than how the game was received.
@@kylenegaard6461 In order to make a cure, Ellie would die, saving millions of people, Joel made the sacrifice of saving Ellie and killing the doctor, so they didn’t make a cure, basically it’s how the doctors would kill Ellie (hence the hero part), and Joel ( saving Ellie but killing the doctors, sacrificing the one and only chance for a cure, the villain part).
@@kylenegaard6461 they were fighting for a “cause” while they see Joel as a backstabbing smuggler, who’s only purpose was to deliver their cargo (Ellie), and he killed they entire firefly crew, and made humanity doomed to the virus
Level and mechanic design is one thing, story is another. In all ways but story, Part 2 was top notch. But a better story would have made it truly great. The production values of Part 2 might have distracted from the story quality, but that's very subjective. A truly good game marries the quality of all of its aspects.
@@kilroy987 Part 2 has all the qualities of a great story; the characters mirror each other, Abby becomes like Joel, and Ellie becomes like Abby bc she felt like she had no purpose after not providing a cure and then losing Joel. But she finally understands that Joel saved her from the hospital for her to ultimately experience a fulfilling life, not for her to waste it on grief and regret. So when she has agency over Abby's fate for the 1st time in SB, Ellie chooses to spare her and moves on to seek real help for her PTSD. The story expands on TLOU1's themes of grief, sense of purpose, and trauma, but the creators said the script is laid out like the pacing of a novel with all the POV switches, flashbacks, and the epilogue. It's not a story that's traditionally made for a videogame, so not everyone could understand it or connect to the characters. The creators also said they didn't want to make forgiving Abby "too easy", so they already knew it was going to be controversial. But for the show they might change that approach, bc with a passive experience, characters need more screen time for viewers to get attached. Plus it'll be easier to do POV switches and time jumps like they did for season 1.
@jay2thaudy human psychology is bad, human players react normally to guardian figure dying to stranger angrily, THEREFORE humanity= bad, game GOOD, Society baaad, moralizing GOOD. Everyone else wrong, me right.
There’s something you missed here. Abby’s part of the story, the “fetch quest” as you referred to it and the battle against both the Scars and WLF on the island in order to find and save Lev are an indication of Abby’s entire belief system crumbling. In the end, she chose to go against her own people (WLF) even killing some of them in order to protect Lev, a kid she barely knows but has developed a kinship with in a short time. This mirrors Joel’s motive in part 1. A result of which was inevitably what cause her to kill Joel in the first place. Then she ends up doing the same thing. So Abby’s story doesn’t just connect to Joel & Ellie’s story, it mirrors it, and makes both stories as a whole even more emotional and thought provoking.
I loved the switch between Ellie and Abby. I thought the end of Ellie’s gameplay in the theatre was the end of the game. I didn’t like Abby at first so I was so shocked that we got to play her. And as I played her, I began to like her and see her side of the story. And it completely blew my mind how they were able to do that. Doing it like that worked for me in the video game, and I have to say Abby’s part was definitely the most badass and the best part in the game. But I trust that the show will be just as amazing. They did such a good job with season 1, so I have no doubt.
Just wanted to comment to say - I can't believe you only have 109 subs! Watching this video, with how well it's been executed and thought out, felt like something any of the large content creators could have produced. Keep it up! Also let's make it 110 :D
I wonder if they could have made some decisions to help the player grow attached to Abby more before she killed Joel. How it felt to me was "Hey I know this new character just killed your favorite character from the first game, and you just spent 12 hours hunting her down, BUT we are going to make you play as her because we want you to feel the exact opposite of how we just spent the 25 hours of gameplay in this series making you feel."
To me, that was the entire point though. It made us play as this character who was nothing but a complete villain, forcing you to try to empathize with her through her 3 days in Seattle. By doing this, the impact of the ending is entirely dependent on the player's understanding of Abby. They made us hate her, then tried to reel us back in. It was incredibly ambitious, and I respected that. I think it worked well for me, but I could see why it didn't work as well for others.
@@thoughtprojectI can agree and say it was ambitious, but in my perspective and opinion it failed miserably because there were so many moments that portrayed Abby as a uncaring monster. I think a good example I can use is how ellie reacted to killing a pregnant woman. She was horrified about what she just did, but if you compare her to Abby who almost looked like she was in joy killing a pregnant woman. They tried to make a character sympathetic, but there are not that many redeeming qualities to said character.
I think abby wasnt as sympathetic as Ellie was because Ellie had literally just killed Mel and for all she knew Ellie killed her knowing she was pregnant. not only that but Abby doesnt even end up killing her so i think it was done pretty well. I know where you're coming from seeing we played in ellies perspective more so its easier to take her side however i dont think abbys redemption failed, sure a lot of people dont end up forgiving her but a lot do it just comes down to the player
@@stur3366She had just lost her friends and one of the only people she cared about since childhood. She wasn't on good terms with Mel but through her perspective someone just came in and killed a baby so I'm sure that added fuel aswell. We literally just playing 10 hrs of Ellie for revenge. I don't know about you but I didn't give 2 sh!t about Abby's group at the beginning of the game. I just wanted them dead. They even give you the information that Mel(this character you don't know) was pregnant at the start of the game. Did that information cross my mind while I was hunting them down as Ellie? Absolutely not. I've played the game multiple times and there was no pleasure on Abby's face when she was about to kill Dina(who in her mind is just as responsible as Ellie and Tommy). It was just rage. Which Lev was able to calm with just one word.
I think intertwining the stories would make sense in a TV show. I had a similar thought after playing through Part II and if they intertwined the stories instead. However, I do think Naughty Dog took the right approach and really gave us a chance to play as Abby. If I was switching between both characters the whole time, I don't think I would have given Abby a fair chance. It's a rollercoaster of a game in both emotions, action, and just pacing in general. IMO, it's not meant to be a fun/super enjoyable experience. But more of a challenging one that really made me think and I appreciated that.
Honestly couldn't have said it better myself. The divisive reactions were inevitable based on the route they decided to take for the game. I really liked it, and others hated. It really challenged us emotionally in a way that I've never seen from a videogame, and I appreciate it. I just hope the adaptation is slightly less controversial. Thanks for the comment
exactly. and honestly, they WANTED us to have that big emotional moment of putting the controller down, yelling “FUCK NO IM NOT PLAYING AS HER?!” and eventually sitting back down to see the story out, and see her side. risky and divisive, but EXACTLY how they wanted it to go. plus it just wouldn’t play well back and forth. but the show can do that, though i am sad my parents won’t get to experience that defiance at the devs😂
when i watched TLOU2 (on youtube lmao) and saw peoples main issues w it, I immediately prayed that the didn't split baby and ellies sections into 2 separate seasons. Although i appreciate her section and enjoyed it, it will be laborious to sit and watch almost a whole season of just her especially when it is so isolated because of the time it will take to produce another season. like we wouldn't have seen ellies story for over a year. If they decide to switch back and forth each day i think it would be pretty effective, especially because when i got to abbys part i kinda forgot that ellie had been to those same places, and i think for example if we see ellie kill nora and switch back to abby seeing her just hours before that sort of insane. But it could drag on for a WHILE before we get to the end of the last day even if they do cut out chunks to improve the pacing because we are seeing the same three days twice, chronologically, just reaching that final point will be painful. IM hoping they expand a bit more on santa babra where the game couldn't cause of the already ginourmus time and side characters. just glad the show will be able to hopefully improve upon the original story and mould somewhat to the complaints of fans
Great video! I also firmly believe Lev needs an entire episode dedicated to his story. It felt so capsuled and far off from Abby and Ellie that it just did not get the space and time it needed. Similiar to Bill and Frank it needs its time to breathe and have more emotional impact.
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed! And yes, they definitely should do a Lev (and Yara) bottle episode, since it seems like there's so much more story to tell there.
The way I see it, season 2 can begin this way. It can start from Abby at the park before seeing Jerry murdered and then the rest of the season can adapt the flashbacks of Ellie and Abby growing up in Jackson and Seattle extended into a nine or ten episode season's worth of character development that the game couldn't give us and then end with Abby mauling Joel to his demise. Season 3 can adapt the three days in Seattle between Ellie and Abby and then end with their final brawl on the foggy beach of Santa Barbara. That can easily repair the pacing of Part II's storyline. Better yet, give Part III's release some breathing room before that's adapted into live action and the show doesn't wing it's own continuation like GOT did after there were no more books left to adapt for that show's source material. Part of the reason the last few seasons kicked the bucket for that show's viewership. A rabbit hole TLOU should never go down as well.
The more I think about all possible narrative ways this could have been shown to the viewer, the more I think they chose the only right path there was to achieve the level of emotional response that they did. For a video game that is, not sure if it would be the same for a tv show.
A lot of people were mad solely because Joel died, and while I didn't like Joel dying, I accepted it as part of the narrative for Ellie's story. What I didn't like was exactly what you say: We have to tolerate Abbie at a time when we really do not like her. I hate following the story of a character I didn't like. And I never came to like her, either. When the ending finally came I was just so extremely dissatisfied because Ellie killed all those people to get to Abbie, just to let her leave, and then goes home to find everyone she loved is gone. I get what they were trying to do. I understand the intent. I just didn't like it. For the adaptation, idk what they can do to change my mind but i'm still gonna watch it.
SPOILER FOR RDR2 I was kinda shocked when I had to start playing as Abby, but I for one quickly accepted her as my main protagonist and liked playing her as well as Ellie (and Joel). I think I looked at it from the perspective of Red Dead Redemption - when I played the first game as John Marsden I remember how much I wanted to play the endgame as him and not his son. So when RDR2 came out I was bummed to play Arthur Morgan - but as the game progressed I fell in love with Arthur and was heartbroken when he dies in the end. But I finally got to play as John Marsden in the endgame - but all I wanted to do was to play as Arthur. It's funny how your mind plays tricks on you - and I think reminiscing back to that realisation made TLOU2 more acceptable to me even though it's not quite the same thing.
@@gooddoggo3547 Imo people put way too much weight on the game trying to push some kind of morality or deciding what’s good or bad when in my eyes it was purely about every story having two sides.
i think the way the story is structured in the game is actually perfect for the video game medium. the flashbacks help inform ellie and abby’s mental states as they plunge further into despair. and that mid-narrative flip works so well BECAUSE it’s a game. not in spite of that. in a show though i’m open to making it more chronological, but i want the flashbacks to remain as flashbacks
I'm glad you feel that way! I more so had an issue with the overall pacing (the screeching halt at the theater climax) so I think rearranging the events chronologically for the show will help prevent that.
@@thoughtproject yeah i’m definitely open to it with the show. i just think it needs to be the way it is for the game to do what it’s trying to do. enjoyed the video! can’t wait for season 2
When do you propose in the show they kill off Joel? I feel like that would somehow be saved for a Season 2 cliffhanger, considering how well Pedro’s Joel was received by the both the new and old fans. It’d be tough to end his beloved portrayal of the character so early on.
I'm not sure they would be able to make a whole season leading up Joel's death, Craig Mazin already said it was going to stay true to the majority of the source material. I hope we get at least 2-3 episodes before his death though, ideally opening with the museum flashback. I think they could make a damn good premiere out of it, thus giving the audience a little more time with Joel before he meets his demise.
Amazing video,when you made a cut of what the end of season two could potentially look like with Abby, threatening Ellie I got chills! Idea that maybe they could stretch the game into two parts and I have the season two finale be Joel getting killed.
I think it might work well to start season 2 immediately telling the story of Abby, eventually hitting us with the surprise that her father was the Doctor Joel killed, and then climaxing with the end of the season being Joel's murder. Season 3 returns to Ellie and follows her revenge quest, finishing with the final fight. The trick would be the introduction of Abby as something other than the killer of Joel immediately from her introduction. Get the audience attached to her and identifying with her BEFORE it's revealed where her path collides with Ellie's.
It's always awesome to see people analysing a game such as this and taking the time to talk about it in a balanced way. Absolutely fantastic video my dude. I loved every minute
I’m a ten year TLOU fan boy I love part 1 and part 2 I love the pacing in both games and I love the show and im excited for season two and I’m excited for part 3 🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷
I loved part 2 as much as I did part 1. And while I do understand the pacing critique and many people have their own ideas of how part 2's story should've been done for better pacing, there's one part of the story that literally no one seems to take into consideration: Abby's revenge mission has already ended, where as Ellie's revenge mission just starts. Therefor, narratively, it makes sense for Ellie's 3 days to be so focused, where as Abby's 3 days would LACK focus. I mean, what new focus would Abby have to have at that time? She was dealing with the aftermath of her completed mission. Her sudden fetch mission led to nothing as Yara got killed anyway, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because her arc was about accidentally finding something else to keep fighting for in Lev, just like had happened to Joel with regards to Ellie. Joel was also just living his life as he normally did, without a real interesting focus, UNTIL he met Ellie. Having understood that, I had absolutely no problem with the pacing of part 2. I mean, I truly have no idea how you could do the story any different and still get the same point across. Therefor I also had no problems with the third act, as I understood where it stood narratively in relation to the 2 previous acts. So my question is, knowing that Abby's part was (most likely) purposefully starting out without a clear focus (leading up to her redemption) and why, how should the story then have been done to increase the pacing, while at the same time driving home the same narrative point?
You bring up a very valid point. However, for a whole 10-12 hour section to lack focus in a videogame is a big reason why a lot of people disliked Abby's campaign. Narratively, it makes sense, but for many it wasn't fun to play. With that said, I genuinely think they can adapt the same story beats as the game and it will be more effective since we aren't playing as Abby, we are simply watching her storyline play out. I hope that makes sense.
@@thoughtproject Most haters didn't play Abby's portion of the game if they played at all they honestly have no clue what Abby's portions contain as they didn't play it and run off heresay some don't even watch full clips for full context they watched edited snips so they can have agendas so I don't think they actually get what OP said to me the down time for Abby is what Joel was doing before he found Ellie as abby is just post raider joel moving into father joel role as the story goes on.
i feel like it would definitely be better switching though abby and ellie’s perspective so we can get behind both sides and also not get bored with the show
never understood why people were SO insistent that abby had to die even after the final fight, i grew up playing the last of us and my dad looks and acts exactly like Joel, so the game was very devastating and difficult for me to replay, but i feel like in a way we do get that revenge we wanted. by the end, abby is a shell of a person. she’s lost half of her body weight, lost her love interest, all of her friends, her dog, and even her home, she has no where to go but now has a new life to take care of, she’s worse off how we left her than she would be dead
A friend of mine loved Last of us part 2 on his PS4. He even let his wife's boyfriend try it and they both loved it so much that they left the wife and started a family of their own .
I hope we don’t see Joel die again (in S2) because I personally wouldn’t be able to watch that again due to the memories I and we all had with him and Ellie. But if Joels death doesn’t happen then the Story would have to be dramatically changed.
@@thoughtproject I also understand why many people hate part II and it’s mostly because Joel’s death and it’s because they lost an important character they bond with. But part II is surely not a bad game I just wish Joel died like a hero. Hopefully they’ll do it better in season 2
It's a more viewer friendly experience, they don't have to work a controller to sneak around camps of WLF or Seraphites, or kill the Rat King. I just hope they don't miss any of the high octane moments like Season 1 had no Gymnasium Bloater Boss Fight in Bill's town.😢 You can always just watch gameplay online I guess. For me, that was just such a big moment in the first game, getting caught in all of Bill's traps.
If they wanted to, they could technically get three seasons out of the story from part two. I personally think that they're really good at expanding and giving us new stuff with the last of us TV show. And considering that the story in part 2 is two seasons worth of narrative alone. They could also get a whole other season just concentrating on the 4-year between the end of the first game and the beginning of the 2nd
The showrunner Craig Mazin said they were going to stay true to the majority of the source material, so I'm not sure they would create a whole season of strictly new material. I think 2 seasons is good for Part II's adaptation, with the right pacing.
The producers stated they will depart just enough from the actual game so it "becomes its own thing". That's a pretty big hint Pedro Pascal's character won't be killed early, or even killed at all, in season 2. He was after all responsible for alot of the success of the first season. So unless they plan on cramming more flashbacks with Joel, I expect a "slight" canon change in which Joel survives the attack, or gets killed much later in the season like in the last episode or even until season 3 when everything ends.
From one of the co-creators himself "However, for those hoping that season 2 will get the same treatment when it finally arrives, things might be a little different. Craig Mazin has now teased that season 2 will be "different" and "be its own thing." Speaking at a virtual press conference reported by Variety, Craig revealed that plans for season 2 are starting to take shape, and that it will be both "different radically" and "barely different at all" from The Last of Us: Part II game." . I can't post links in youtube comments so just google it.
i think the first episode should be ellie and joel living in jackson, ellie becoming friends with dina and jesse and dating cat, and then it fades out and abby and her friends hunting joel is introduced then the next few episodes are the exact scenes we see in the game just in a better order for pacing(as u said) and then the last episode is the whole theatre thing, but it SHOWS lev and abby letting them go. that way the next season can start with more focus on ellie and dina's development, tommy's development, abby and lev, abby and lev at the one place with the sadists, ellie's battle with ptsd, and then goes towards the santa barbara section of the game. i just think the show has an opportunity to delve into a lot of things that ppl want more of, while fixing the pacing to better fit the story AND a tv show
After playing the game myself, I think if the game had played out chronologically vs factoring in a bunch of time jumps and flashbacks the game would have been much better received. It would have felt like a more seamless blend from “The last of Us” that we all know and love, to the much darker and more intense feel that part II brought to the table. It also could have maybe even allowed them to omit the Santa Barbara chapter all together making the message of the game and it’s conclusion resonate much better rather than it feeling more drawn out like it did. Mind you the Santa Barbara chapter was my favourite both gameplay and aesthetic wise, but it felt like it lacked drive and purpose
I actually kinda think the complete opposite. I always felt Part 1 was much more suited to TV, because it flows better, simply has more relatable characters and has a perfectly resolved ending that makes total sense. The central narrative drive of Ellie's immunity is relentlessly building up all the time, along side their burgeoning relationship. On top of that you have the major bonus of it being a wonderful 'origin' story. The fact that Mazin has already admitted Season 2 is going to be drastically different to the game, much more than S1, probably tells you the difficulties they're facing making a TV show out of it. Fans of TLOU2 are going to need to have an open mind I feel, it's inevitably going to cause a lot of complaints I reckon.
Sure, Part II might be more difficult to adapt, but I think it will work better as a finished product. The fact that they now have the creative liberty to change some things around to make it flow better bodes well, and that goes double for Mazin confirming it will be more different from the game. Sometimes, when done right, unfaithful elements from the source material can go a long way.
I'll say ths: I haven't played any if the games but I watched the 10 hour long movie version of the game they made, and in this version everything is in chronological order. So this made Abby very very likable, and even Owen, Mel and Alice too! Honestly I absolutely loved it, even more than TLOU 1, but the pacong and the order of the scene is completely different so this is one explanation.
I still dont understand why they couldn't tell the story in chronological order. If we had known right out of the gate what Joel had done to Abby, we might have felt whatever sympathy Neil wanted us to feel instead of the intense hatred that erupted across the internet. And it would have helped with the pacing of the game by a longshot, since we already play as Abby in the prologue, so jumping back and forth between her and Ellie would have worked.
I played TLOU Part 1 and 2 back to back for the first time right before the TV show came out. Part 2 is far superior in every aspect, specially story wise. Even with the coin flip from Ellie to Abby I kept an open mind and it truly got to me. The final fight had me crying and begging for them to stop. Perfection... I replayed Part 2 numerous times just to play as Abby, she rules.
I think they can potentially make it work but it's going to be difficult when so many people love Pedro Pascal and I think it's gonna be hard to forgive Abby for what she did.
honestly I think the opposite. I think pedros Joel was not really that great and for that reason people will be less outraged than they were at the game version’s death
@@persolus689i disagree. Pedro brought a lot of humanity to Joel as a character, he is far more compassionate and inherently lovable. The entirety of part one Joel is very much a hard ass (for good reason) but Pedro’s take felt so human and alive and ugh, his death will definitely hit me harder i’d say.
@@damimami5144 that's interesting. i'm glad you were able to get that out of your watch, cuz i found him incredibly lifeless compared to troy baker's joel in the original game. i thought baker did the hard-ass joel much better, incredibly visceral and merciless, while pedro seemed like he was sleepwalking through the first half of the show -- before he became a literal half corpse for the second half of the show -- and was incredibly toned down in his kill count (which i understand is inherently going to be lesser in a TV show than a video game). he didn't do the accent as well, his lines weren't delivered as well, and i just thought overall he was a remarkably useless character that wasn't given much to do and didn't do much with it, compared to his video game depiction which ultimately made him one of the most beloved game protagonists in all of video game history. that was just my reaction though. edit: just wanting to add thoughts about how i found baker more compassionate too. like i really felt that connection between him and ellie throughout the game, and him sobbing over sarah's death felt a lot less forced than pedro's performance to me. when he calls ellie 'baby girl' after she kills david in the game, my heart broke, i was itching to see how heartfelt the show version of that scene would be, and it was just him waddling up to her mumbling that it's him while she starts shrieking, found it kind of ridiculous personally. anyways.
That's actually the downside of the TV medium. Throwing us into the shoes of Abby with agency after having lived out Ellie's revenge almost to fruition was absolutely necessary - intertwining would have diluted the sense of rage that was required to experience Ellie's side
I suppose, but a VIDEOGAME is predicated on how much FUN you are having while playing (generally speaking). When you tackle these kind of intense complex themes and weave it in with fun shoot em up gameplay, I think some of the message can be lost in translation. This is why I think a story as dark as Part II will work better when you are simply watching it, not playing it. Maybe I should have stated that more clearly in the video!
The only thing I’m very concerned about is the lack of spores and how that affects the story. I loved this game despite its pacing being very bad on the first play through, and to me two of the biggest parts of it emotionally were Ellies mask breaking and Dina almost sacrificing herself to “save” her, and Ellie killing Nora. Both of those scenes to me were absolutely huge. Also, Abby’s actress not being big is a problem even bigger. With most characters it’s just a physical trait, but with her it’s a major part of her character and motivations. It’s literally a response to her father’s death, and her inability to protect him. That scene at the end, with Abby being taken off the plank with all her mass completely gone just isn’t the same at all without her starting the game absolutely yoked.
I thought the same thing when they cast Ellie, and how Ramsey did not resemble her in the slightest. I was proven completely wrong, and she was an amazing choice for the role. I have faith that HBO got this one right too, but I see where you're coming from.
This video showed up in my recommended feed, I haven't really been able to articulate how I have felt about this game since playing it. You're pretty much dead on, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You earned a sub for the quality of this video, hope you make more!
I think you're probably right, but one disadvantage of your proposal is that the Abby twist will lose its impact, and Ellie killing Abby's friends will show her in a negative light. I think the point of separating the timeline is to slowly make the player realize the consequences of their actions, but if it's happening in parallel, it might just feel less meaningful.
That may be true, but I still think they should change it up somehow. Because I don't think fans would be happy with weekly episodes during Abby's timeline. Just a thought
Personally, I think intercutting Ellie and Abby’s stories would lessen the impact for me. Being absolutely swept up in trying to get revenge as Ellie and then the whiplash of being shown the opposing perspective after and confronting all the atrocities I had just committed was partly what made TLOU2 so special imo. Then my subsequent shift in perspective as Ellie becomes the villain, and me judging wanted them to stop was so emotionally effective. I feel that if the stories were interconnected, you would never be fully on board with Ellie as you were in the game, and then never fully feel the gravity of your actions when being confronted by the opposite perspective.
That is a solid point. But at the same time, I'm not sure as if the game format would work well as a show, especially considering there would only be 1 episode per week. If we were stuck on Abby's perspective for the majority of a season, I think it would lose a lot of viewers.
@@thoughtproject yeah for sure. I think TLOU2‘a uses its structure to take advantage of its medium, to make you feel complicit in Ellie’s actions, and it subvert the idea of faceless NPC’s as obstacles that’s present in so many games including so many of Naughty Dog’s previous works. The show will most definitely have to restructure to try and take advantage of the new medium.
seeing how well they put depth into minor characters for tlou1, and as someone who actually really loves abby, playing as her, her character, her parallel's to Joel and Ellie, im really excited to see if anyone reaches a better understanding of Abby because of the showrunner's ability to do that to past characters. Many fans hate her and i hope the show does more to show why ellie and abby are so similar and why she's actually a really well done character.
Great narrative. I can only summarize my feelings about TLOU in one way. I had a life before TLOU and I have another after playing TLOU. And I'm not that young... Have to agree with U, one of the most immersive games I've ever played and I loved both. Every time I hear the guitar chords from the menu... I just thank to god I'm alive.
as someone who knows nothing about the game your review/recounting of what happens in part 2 had me in goosebumps, bewildered, shocked, intrigued, like i cant believe a VIDEO GAME did all of that
Awesome video! I'm so glad you said, Make no mistake, She isn't forgiving Abby, but rather forgiving Joel ... (I'd like to add), AND HERSELF. I also agree with you on many things. I'd also like to say, everything has a budget. People want more action setpiece which is probably extremely expensive to make for this show. Considering the success of season 1, I hope HBO gives a raise to the season 2's budget ceiling.
loved the video. just finished the remaster on PS5. Completely agree with what you said about understanding how people loved/hated it. Seeing as how Abby has now been cast for the show, it would seem they are starting with the flashbacks since the actress looks to be still very young. I'm not sure but it looks like season 2 will be based on the flashbacks we saw in part 2 for both Ellie and Abby. This leads me to believe that along with the flashbacks, there will be original plotlines to go along with them.
seeing the thumbnail and title of the video, I thought this was going to be one of those gateways to hating P2 over and over again but surprisingly you were very honest and understanding in alot of aspects of the game which I love alot. of course, I disagree on some things you said, specifically more on the pacing of P2: I heavily believe it's justifiable in alot of aspects cause I don't know what other better way they can tell the story. also I feel like there's more impact to P2 story because of interactivity, with the HBO show it won't have that obviously. I just feel like P2 works better as video game because of, well, interactivity. I do have high hopes for the adaption, I just don't know how they can pull it off. on the bright side tho, the film/series lovers will have more perspective and understanding than the video game community. also, awesome video by the way, I forgot to mention that and you deserve a subscriber! ❤
Ellie day 1 Abby day 1 Ellie day 2 Abby day 2 Ellie day 3 (cliffhanger for next episode) Abby day 3 (conclusion of cliffhanger from last episode) This is how the episodes for the show should go.
Im still trying to understand the vitriol for this game and its story. Great video. I appreciate and am ok with the pacing and split stories. It will be interesting how thy handle it in the show. I can see positives on following the game or switching between in real time.
Critics of the game have not been shy with the many critiques to be had. To not understand is an admission of ignorance. You should not be proud to be ignorant.
I didn’t mind Joel dying but I hated the way the creators made his death. It was so undignified and based on Joel’s out-of-character decision to reveal his real name. It cheapened his entire arc in TLOU 1 and made me furious. They could’ve given him a more heroic death, in my opinion.
Interesting, I don’t agree at all. Joel’s death works because in that moment we realise how far Joel has come around as a person between the first and second game. At that point, he was the caring and considerate to others Joel, why would he think anyone in that room knew who he was?????
@@kamakazilee6066 because he spent years surviving and taking care of Ellie that he should've been more prepared when he encountered Abby et al. I find it difficult to believe that he would just let his guard down like he did. It was disappointing more than heartbreaking for me. I don't mind his death but not in a thoughtless, 'let's get rid of him quickly' kind of way.
I’m late to this party but a side episode of Manny in Mexico with his mom and dad would be amazing. Showing how he lost his mom and made it to the PNW with his dad
I think with it being a show the pacing would definitely need to be changed as you can't force the 10 hours of gameplay to make the player to start to understand the story. So should be interesting to see what they do with it. Also just subscribed this was a great video. love the talking over and discussing a games core themes and values through the story.
6:00 I think they really missed an opportunity for Tess’s words from her and Joel’s last conversation to echo during a big moment. That one thing could’ve reminded most players of the truth and resulted in less outrage
I have this sneaky suspicion that they might go with the original start for the story from part 2. But, like the TV show, I am keen to see what Mazin will add to the existing story.
Yes, exactly! This has been my stance ever since I finished the game. The immersion as Abby from a gamer's POV is completely lost because the player has already been conditioned by the SAME writers to 'be' Joel and Ellie from the first game. Hell, all of the themes, emotions, understanding of the world of the first TLOU is entirely predicated on our ability to resonate with Joel and Ellie's relationship and their interaction with the rest of the world. For the writers to expect the player to 'become' Abby, and for example, have the game restart when we die playing as her, even though nothing we want more from Ellie's perspective is for her to die, is a complete contradiction that ignores the fundamentals of how gaming storytelling is supposed to work. I am almost certain at least 90% of the player base intentionally threw Abby in front of Ellie in their boss fight at least once, because none of wanted to stop 'being' Ellie (which is literally thanks to the writers in the first place.) TV show is definitely the better format for this story.
Absolutely true. While I did enjoy the story, and even felt empathy for Abby, it took too long to get to the end. I did like that Ellie spared her too, but again, it could have came way sooner. Simply watching Abby's plot play out on a television screen will work far better than actually playing as her in my opinion.
I think having players play as Abby was done intentionally for us to feel so conflicted. I mean, as the video points out, Ellie's horrendous acts also made us feel conflicted, as many players grew to dislike Ellie a little bit and just wanted her stop, while simultaneously still rooting for her, as we understood where she was coming from. In my opinion, all these conflicting emotions led to Abby vs Ellie being one of the best boss fights in gaming history. Yes, I was one of the 90% that had Abby killed first. But going in with so much inner turmoil while at the same time finding out how dangerous Ellie actually is was in my opinion masterfully done. For most players to by the end not want either Abby nor Ellie to die, makes me believe that all the conflicting emotions we felt was intentional. I actually think that if the show could make us feel the same way, it would benefit the show. I mean, aren't the best shows the shows that make us FEEL something? Whether it be anger, hate, sympathy, empathy, fear or happiness, wouldn't it be a good thing to have people talking? In my view at least, it would. I personally think the game's divided fan base was caused more by the attributed wokeness (caused by the leaks) that made people rebel against it, than the game's story structure or even Joel's death. I think that with it now being years ago and the rage having died down, the story structure, whether it be in the game or in the show, might not cause as much rage as it did before. But of course, that's just my view.
@@neil8701 Yes I think for the narrative side of things it certainly achieved that idea and many other surrounding themes, concepts etc. very very effectively! I definitely won't say I wasn't hit hard emotionally by the game by any stretch The part of it I didn't like is that at the core of it, I think there is simply something intrinsically 'wrong' 'backwards' with being expected to feel for and be Abby. It had less to do with negative emotions around the nature of the story, but the ability to be immersed in the game itself. One of the elements of video games is the illusion of having some level of control, and through the nature of the first game, we are fundamentally told that we are supposed to BE Ellie in this game. We are supposed to think irrationally and we are supposed to bypass any empathy we could possibly even have for Abby unless Ellie HERSELF starts feeling those things. Why? Because that's exactly what we did as Joel in the first game. Killing all of the innocent fireflies in the hospital to save Ellie was a very very wrong thing to do, but as the player we are not prompted to feel guilty because we ARE Joel, and due to his love for Ellie he (and therefore us) would do it all over again. All of this sets a fourth wall precedent about our expectations as the player that we tend to just accept, kind of like how we just accept that all the gunshot wounds the characters in the game take should probably severely injure them and make it impossible for them to press on but we ignore it for the sake of the game. Your opinion is definitely valid and what you described no doubt I experienced but the above issue keeps eating at me a little bit. I think a potential solution would be to play as a different wolf who is on the same side as Abby, but who knows, maybe it wouldn't impact in the same way
The most important change the show needs to make is have the Abby flashback be the cold opening of the first episode. The audience knows Abby's motivation immediately and will crushing tension with new viewers when Abby meets Joel. The other changes i would like to see is if they cut out the rattler and theater scene and instead have the first confrontation be at the aquarium after Ellie killed Owen and Mel. After fighting for a bit Abby escape with Yara to The seraphite island to find lev. Ellie would travel to the island where she and Abby would eventually fight their way out of the island after Yara's death and once the two reach the boats is where the final confrontation appears.
I love Part II!!! Its the gift that keeps on giving, or at least it keeps on giving to me. I'm excited but equally nervous about how HBO adapts Part II into Season 2, possibly a Third Season as well.
we share almost the exact same outlook on this game, I adore it but my god that brick wall halt was truly jarring. Abby has some of the best sections in the entire game, Lev is fucking awesome but it was hard to fully enjoy because the impact from that sudden stop lingered through every moment, I'd love to see them jump between characters how the game never could.
i hope and pray if they come out with a director’s cut of the game, they add a chronological mode for the seattle section, kinda like beyond two souls remaster did. The hard cut is jarring even on replays.
Just finishing playing this game for like the 20th time yesterday. And man i love it. I think the 1st episode should be about joel and ellie but the rest about abby have her story explained then ellie. Thats just me i also like the story happing at the same time. What is the biggest thing that will spread out between s2 and s3 is if we are getting a TLoU part III. I think that be definitive on where they break up the seasons.
@thoughtproject abbie just has to be well built, and that can only happen with time and not jumping episodes. So that we have time to marinate with her and grow into her more I think it would be ballsy to have the confrontation at the theater be the end of season 2 be crazy because we already love ellie but now we are more torn between them fighting. Idk that's how I see it. Took like 3 play throughs, but I finally got abbie and really enjoyed her story, and honestly, she's more fun to play as in my opinion lol I'm excited no matter what Craig and Neil did an amazing job with S1 so I trust them. Great video by the way. Very thought out and got me thinking!
Personally I think they plan to add seasons to cover the in between the jump between part 1 and part 2. Primarily because its a cash cow and the creator has mentioned adding to the story and doesnt feel tied to only 2 seasons. Also that would allow them to use Joel more than part 2 did. I kinda think story wise its probably a mistake bc I don't feel like the show was as emotionally deep as the games were, but im sure it will do well financially anyway, which is the point I guess.
People need to understand these are two different mediums, in a TV show you can do it in a proper way. But in a video game you can’t because it’s a game in which the audience has to be engaged with. So that’s why part two was the way it was.
That’s fair, I just think if they do anything different with the story and how it plays out, you lose the effect the game had on its audience. There’s no point in changing around story beats to try suit a general audience, people will love or hate it regardless
This is a great analysis. I have played this game sooo many times, and I'm still with Eliie, coupled with Abby's stupid dad pulling a KNIFE out on a feral man trying to save a girl who became his. He and Marlene could have waited a whole 1 day, they waited decades in the apocalypse, what was one more day to tell Ellie and Joel and to LET Ellie make up HER mind? Yeah Joel took something from her, but so did Marlene and the, "Good Doctor," by completely denying them all, (everyone involved,) a chance. To me Abby responded the way Ellie is when we get to play as her. I don't blame her like I did the first few playthroughs, but to me her flaw is that she keeps ignoring that her dad LACKED any common sense which got him killed, and we see his lack of sense during the flash back sequences. He, (The Good Doctor,) started all this, NOT Joel .
It’s only controversial because people didn’t like Joel being killed, but he deserved what he got in the eyes of the families he destroyed. Abby isn’t the villain and people hate that and it’s for no reason. It’s only controversial because Ellie is gay & people really hate that & that’s something they have to deal with in their own miserable lives. It’s only controversial because there’s a transgender character and again, people are showing how they truly feel about these people. There’s nothing heard scratching or confusing about this game. It was literally made so you have different perspectives and not just the 2 you play with in part 1 and once again, extreme, yet toxic fandom has people believing the game should’ve been made for what they want & that’ll never be the case. Both games are masterpieces. I watch these videos not to hear y’all opinions, but to simply support your channels (yours and those like it). Everything was done on purpose, the pacing, the timing, the action set pieces, the built up tension, slowing it down, etc. Listen, they’re not supposed to care about what the die hard fan wants and especially with how the game is executed, which is more than fine as well. If Season 2 is executed like part 2 of the game, the intensity will be much higher and it’ll be extremely successful, I can bet money on that.
I give them a lot of credit for taking the route of such a risky narrative structure, it was unlike any other game I'd played before. I just hope the adaptation will be slightly less divisive.
It’s all a matter of opinion because I enjoyed playing Abby’s part of the game more than Ellie’s , this game is a masterpiece in my option and I think the way it was told was absolutely perfect. You got to see two sides of the same coin.
I took care to avoid any and all spoilers when I started my first play through of TLOU2, which was pretty difficult because I didn’t experience either game until TLOU part 1 on my new ps5 a few months ago. So of course I was curious to see how others felt after completing part 2. Have to agree with what you say around the 6:20 mark - I just wanted it to stop. I just wanted for both of them to suddenly see each others perspective so they’d finally understand each other and move on. I love that it wasn’t black and white, just like the ending of the first game. TLOU1 was a masterpiece, but I guess I’m in the minority when I say I found TLOU2 even more enjoyable.
EVERYTHING about The Last of Us works better as a show. I'm not saying that to indicate that I prefer television over gaming or anything, but because The Last of Us fails as a game in every conceivable way besides being functional. You can strip its story away from its (for lack of a better word) interactive nature and all you'd lose is the boring corridor walking, baby-degree puzzles, and the manipulative attitude of guilt-tripping your audience over violent murdering that these characters perform in cutscenes that the player has no control over.
My idea for season 2 and 3 would be to do the game in reverse order. One to lend more shock to Joel's death and second to lull the viewers into a false sense of security by pretending that The Last of Us is a series of loosely connected standalone stories. Season 2 opens showing off life with the WLF and introducing us to Abby and her friends. We get to know them for an episode and find out the problems they have with the area around the stadium they call home. Episode 1 ends or episode 2 begins with the ambush on Abby in the truck when she goes out on patrol. We follow her thru her story and she learns someone is attacking various WLF compounds and it doesn't seem to be the Seraphites, and that they are picking off her friends, maybe we see the results of one or two of their murders. We get flashes of what is going on with Joel and Ellie bonding like we do in the flashbacks in the first half of the game, so they can string us along and still give us some of what we love from the two of them. As season 2 comes to a close we get word that they think this has something to do with Jackson, and the finale ends with her getting back to the aquarium and tracking the killers back to the theater. The last moments end with Ellie being held at gunpoint for killing her friends and instead of Ellie saying her "I know why you killed Joel" line, Abby cuts her off before she can reveal that Joel is dead with a "We let you go and you wasted it". This way the audience gets more sympathetic Abby and is left with the cliffhanger of wondering what happened to Joel. When I played thru Part 2, the beginning of Abby's story almost felt like a redemption arc meant to make me not loathe her. By the time I reached the halfway point I was on board with liking Abby and hating (in a good way) the choice I was being forced to make and the choice both of these characters I really liked were being forced to make. In season 3 episode 1 we would get to catch back up with Ellie and Joel and watch the beginning of the game and the first half of Part 2. We would see flashbacks of a younger Abby in this season, and as we closed in on the last few episodes of Season 3 we would have the reveal that Joel killed Abby's dad at the end of season 1 to save her. Season 3 would end with the confrontation between Ellie and Abby and them going their separate ways. Season 4 would be the last section of Part 2 with Abby and Lev getting captured, Ellie and Dina living after the events of Washington, and then Ellie tracking Abby down because she can't let go.
I personally believe if you do anything different from Part 2, you immediately lose the effects the story has on the audience. Part 1 was fine (it was much more linear, was smaller in scope and characters) and they had room to do their own thing. But Part 2 is in that category with Jaws or The Exorcist, if you remove a piece of those puzzles, it’s immediately inferior to the original product
I disliked the story of the second game, I really appreciate your ability to not bash on people who didn't like it. It would be hard to save the story for me but I do think it could work better if structured differently.
Fair enough you didn’t like the game, but if they drastically change anything from the 2nd game, it wouldn’t be anywhere near as impactful story wise as the game is
I never understand why people think that knowing a character dies devalues that character’s story or means it isn’t worth following. It’s like the classic Romeo and Juliet where it starts with their deaths from the very beginning. Knowing Joel dies in part 2 doesn’t make Part 1 any less of a story. For me it was still really interesting to learn about characters like Owen and how his relationship with Abby developed. I’d like to see even more about his story. Just because I know Ellie kills him doesnt change that.
I just think that the creators didn't pull it off as well as they intended to. I think that if the audience found out organically (along with Abby) that they died, it would hold much more weight. Especially considering that Mel and Owen aren't particularly that engaging to begin with, and it more or less stayed that way even through Abby's point of view. They're obviously not written in the same stratosphere as Romeo and Juliet lol. But I totally understand where you're coming from.
I think as long as they fix some of the massive problems from the game such as not having Joel die so early and in such an out of character way, or trying to gain sympathy for Abby through blantent and lazy emotional manipulation like showing she likes dogs, or ignoring the fact the Fireflies were a terrorist organisation instead of some group of saviours, then it could work as a show.
I will continue to reiterate this: THEMATICALLY, it makes perfect sense, but it doesn't work as well as a videogame when we are going through the same motions and same action set pieces going on 20 hours. It tended to drag on. Make no mistake, I really liked this game, but it could have been much shorter and still packed the same punch. I'd still argue it would work better as a TV show, because there's opportunity to fix some of these drawn out sections.
I'm a little late to this, but still found this interesting. What would be a year ago or so, me and my friend discussed this and we both agreed that the Last of Us part II works BECAUSE it is a game. Compared to books and Film/tv, you, as the player, ARE Ellie and Abby. The player plays as the killer of Joel, forcing their morality to be challenged. It works so well because first we feel the grief and anger of Ellie, consumed in her violence. Then when we get to Abby, we want to go back to Ellie, back to getting our revenge. When you suddenly become Abby, you are forced to experience her story, her life, and we start to question our beliefs about Ellie's revenge, in a way, it's an empathy test. If you compare this to TV, the personal connection is more absent, thus showing Abby will feel like showing the villain.
While that may be true, I still think the show will work better as a finished product. A big factor is that there's definitely a ludonarrative dissonance between the KILL KILL KILL of the gameplay and the anti violence message of the story at the end, which is why many people couldn't resonate with it. They also now have the ability to build off the source material, which can go a long way as we saw in season 1. I see where you're coming from though, I do, and I appreciate this perspective. I'm just trying to suggest ways to make the pacing more digestible. Nevertheless, adapting Part II will be a challenge, but I commend them for taking a leap.
@@thoughtproject let me start off by saying that I appreciate your response. It's definitely daring to try to convert such a daring narritive to the TV screen. While I agree that the pacing of the game is a little off (I think both Abby and Ellie's part should have been a little shorter), the whole descision of switching POV's at half the game is what makes the story so powerful, and doing this chronologically might not achieve the same effect of morality. about the ludonarrative dissonance, I believe the message of the game isn't "Violence is bad", since you can do violence to do GOOD. For example in The Last of Us Part 1 where Joel uses violence to save someone whom he loves, Ellie. The reason the violence is 'bad' is because Ellie does it for her own selfish needs, and the point is that this won't fix her trauma, nor will she forgive herself for not saving Joel. Compare to this to Abby, who bent on revenge travels all throughout the US in search of the man who killed her father, yet when she kills him, the nightmares are still present. It is only through Yara and Lev that she finds purpose, a reason to keep going, and you can see that after this, her nightmares begin to fade. Essentialy, Abby experiences the aftermath of her revenge while Ellie is pursuing hers. In a way, she is 'ahead' of Ellie. About the "KILL KILL KILL", there is somewhat of an argument there, it is a videogame after all. However, the point (I believe) is that we're just as consumed in Ellie's rage as she is herself, the reason why we kill all these people is for our own selfish gain, under the pretense of 'I must avenge him'. The violence is bad, but not because violence in itself is bad. Compare this to Abby, who defends herself by killing people, trying to save Yara, etc... This violence, I wouldn't call 'bad'. I might have gone a little off-track here but this game is my favourite of all time and I think this comment is still not long enough. I want to end on the note that I believe the show could fix some things (The game isn't perfect), yet I'd be thoroughly impressed if they reached the same level of emotional maturity that the game portrays. Thanks for the souls reading this lol.
All valid points. I'm just thinking from a TV perspective, and I'm not sure how fans (those who played the game AND those who didn't) would react if we got episodes upon episodes from Abby's POV, which would be weeks. I feel like it could lose some people, so switching up the narrative structure in a creative way could mitigate those risks. Just my thought process, but I appreciate your comments! Love to go back and forth with viewers, as long as it's respectful
When told in chronological order, the story feels much better paced, going back and forth from Ellie and Abby's story during the 3 days in Seattle, allowing you to get attached to both sides. It's harder to do that for a game, but for a TV show it could work perfectly.
Exactly.
agreed
I'd have to disagree. Telling the story entirely in chronological order would actually ruin the ending. I can understand jumping back and forth between Ellie and Abby in an episode to concurrently show off what's going on during their day in Seattle, but the flashbacks have to remain flashbacks. If we see Joel and Ellie's relationship deteriorate then see her try to forgive Joel before he's killed, and then experience the meat of the story, then none of it will work. It'll be obvious to us why Ellie is doing what she's doing before she even realizes it for herself. Joel and Ellie's final conversation won't hit anywhere near as hard as it does in the game because we wouldn't have been through hell and back to earn that one ounce of kindness the game throws at us. A big part of Part 2's themes is exploring PTSD and trauma, and I honestly think the disjointed timeline of the narrative actually functions to feed into that. Time doesn't flow properly when you're dealing with grief and trauma. It can stay stagnant and jump around as your mind wanders, trying to ask all sorts of things like "where did it all go wrong," "why," and then linger on any what-ifs. The game (in my opinion) so fantastically puts you in Ellie's shoes. You are right there with her in all of this, even when playing as Abby. Afterall, they are two sides of the same coin. But I find that jumping around in time is essential for this story. You lose a lot of impact if you drastically reorganize any of the story.
@@ChristianJayTheCTrain I agree with the flashbacks I personally thought they worked really well, and those Ellie and Joel moments hit pretty hard. maybe they could have been reshuffled, though. I think they could be incorporated into the story chronologically effectively, some of them, but I actually like the ending scenes a lot, so I don't see the structure of the Ellie and Joel parts changing very much, but I really think they should've cut between Ellie and Abby much more frequently.
@@ChristianJayTheCTrain I absolutely agree that the flashbacks need to stay as flashbacks, maybe chronologically wasn't the right word in that regard. Instead, I think Ellie and Abby's timeline in SEATTLE should run concurrent with one another to make that section a bit more digestible. You made some great points
the point of spending hours to get medicine for Yara wasn’t just to save her, it was to show Abby finding new purpose in life with Lev after she killed Joel. she destroyed her relationship with Owen after becoming so consumed with revenge, lost all of her friends after abandoning the WLF, and completely gave up on the Fireflies. it was never just a “fetch quest,” it was an intentional narrative decision. Yara died soon afterwards to both raise the stakes and to completely sever Lev’s last remaining connection to the Seraphites. not to mention Yara being Lev’s only caretaker. after everything, it was literally just him and Abby.
That's a good point, but to me it still wasn't as fun to PLAY as Ellie's section. Of course, this won't matter in an adaptation since we would just be watching it play out on a tv screen.
Exactly, and personally for me, I had more FUN playing Abby's part. Overall I think the game is a masterclass of writing. I'm glad it's so controversial we'll be talking about it for generations to come.
Yeah, that's like simplifying the first game as a escort mission.
That’s a lot of words to say Yara was Fridged 😐
@@KingKam93Same, Abby, Yara and Lev was this game's Joel, Triss and Ellie.
Honestly I think that part 2 will do well as tv just for the fact that people are more use to different perspectives in shows than in video games especially if it plays Abby’s part first but cut’s to Ellie’s side after jole dies cus I feel like it would give everyone that doesn’t know anything about part 2 a better chance to get attached to Abby like the devs wanted
Time will tell!
I actually think that would go against what the devs actually wanted. I think the reason why the devs didn't give us time with Abby before she killed Joel is so that we could have that HUGE HATE that we would have to overcome as the game continued. If we had time to familiarize with her beforehand than it wouldn't have the same impact when you finally realise you don't want both women to continue suffering at the end.
@@bug688 thisssss
@@bug688 absolutely, they were trying to cause all sorts of emotions at once and throughout every turn of the game people don't understand the way they did it was on purpose to make us pissed off, Neil literally said "We want to push you into hate and see if we can pull you back again."
@@bug688 Yep, there's no question that was deliberate. Unfortunately, the writers didn't quite have the chops to sell it for much of the audience - and it definitely didn't help that they switched perspectives by aborting the climax of Ellie's campaign.
I've always thought it would have been way better if, after Ellie returned to the theater, rather than having Abby attack them, we just have the camera pan out from the theater on ground level, only for a combat boot to step in between the camera and theater, and THEN switch to Abby's campaign. It would have left enough suspense for the player to keep it in the back of their mind, without preemptively positioning them to be frustrated at the WRITERS. Abby's campaign does not at all benefit from going in there already expecting the writers to jerk you around as they see fit. Makes it harder to overlook things like the overuse of coincidences and the speedrun of her overnight ride or die bond with Lev.
Season 1 of HBO's The Last of Us showed us the amount of depth the team is willing to give to characters that are already set to die in the game, so i got my hopes real high for how they'll explore each and every one of TLOU Part 2's side characters before their eventual demise.
I have high hopes!
The thing about Part II is that it felt more like a novel than Part I. You had two different perspectives happening at the same time, plus flashbacks of their lives at key intervals. That benefits a TV structure more than gaming, where players need to physically play through multiple sequence/set pieces that start and stop at random.
Well said.
I'm like 95% sure they'll do it chronologically, jumping back and forth between Ellie and Abby. That is logically the only way it'll work as a TV show. Season 2 will cover what happens during the four year time skip, introducing Abby as a new sympathetic protagonist who ambiguously just lost her father, using Ellie and Abby's 'flashback' scenes as the foundations for backstory on some of the minor characters, Abby arriving in Seattle for the first time, being introduced to the WLF/Scar conflict etc, while Ellie grows closer to Dina and Jesse while pulling away from Joel in Jackson. And the season ends with Joel's death, the reveal of Abby's past as a firefly, and Ellie leaving for Seattle. Then Season 3 will start with her arriving in Seattle and cover the three days from both of their perspectives simultaneously. That's the best way to cover this story for TV; ironically enough, by removing the nonlinear flashback structure from the game, that they had added on to season 1 of the show.
That would be a great idea imo. Thanks for this comment
Ooh I was thinking about how they could use the Abby flashbacks in season 2 without ruining the twist when Joel dies, but keeping the loss of her dad ambiguous until Joel's death would be so good.
I really hope they do it like this, I think a lot of the characters felt a bit "flat", like Dina, Jesse, etc, and even more on Abby's side. A season of building up all their different relationships and also getting to know Abby more would make the story of Part II much more engaging and impactful. Imagine the difference in impact between Jesse's death in the game and Jesse's death in season 3 of the show after we've gotten to know him during season 2.
That would make the season 50% made up filler, and Craig already said that’s not going to happen. Especially if your then going to essentially cram the entire plot of the second game into a third season.
They’re definitely not doing this chronologically and they are gonna stay true to the game
I think it will do better as TV as well. My only wonder is if they’ll maybe add more flashbacks with Joel and Ellie, given the great chemistry and real life friendship between Pedro and Bella, and to have Pedro in the show more since he’s so popular as an actor. That also said, I truly hope the actress who is cast as Abby does not get the unnecessary hate in the show that she got in the game-it’s so vile and unfair to them-they’re playing a character!
I think I have read that the part 2 story will be multiple seasons, so that will allow more expansion (like they did with season 1/part 1).
Agreed! And I think the show would benefit from more flashbacks to drive home their relationship, since we only got nine episodes worth in the first season. No matter what they do though, I'm cautiously optimistic for season 2 and/or 3.
I finished Part 2 yesterday....and i like abby as well as ellie
It was confirmed it will run for two seasons although there’s speculation it could run more than that. The only concern I have is the moving away from the games and continuing on which generally hasn’t gone well for other shows that have done it.
Edit: I just saw an article where it said season 2 will be “ different “ from the games and will span multiple seasons. I think if they can really dive into the story/characters the show will be better than how the game was received.
@@claudiap.53 good thing you can play as both of them taking care of the stupid baby in part 3
“A hero will sacrifice you for the world.”
“A villain will sacrifice the world for you.”
I think that quote fits Joel perfect in a way
Preach.
How? Explain..?
@@kylenegaard6461 In order to make a cure, Ellie would die, saving millions of people, Joel made the sacrifice of saving Ellie and killing the doctor, so they didn’t make a cure, basically it’s how the doctors would kill Ellie (hence the hero part), and Joel ( saving Ellie but killing the doctors, sacrificing the one and only chance for a cure, the villain part).
@@Sythe._. I am very curious though, how are the Fireflies not equally villainous based on their actions towards Joel *and Ellie* in the game?
@@kylenegaard6461 they were fighting for a “cause” while they see Joel as a backstabbing smuggler, who’s only purpose was to deliver their cargo (Ellie), and he killed they entire firefly crew, and made humanity doomed to the virus
This game is also a massive reason to why I'm studying game design. So they did well with inspiring people to make games with the Last of Us games
Level and mechanic design is one thing, story is another. In all ways but story, Part 2 was top notch. But a better story would have made it truly great. The production values of Part 2 might have distracted from the story quality, but that's very subjective. A truly good game marries the quality of all of its aspects.
@@kilroy987 Part 2 has all the qualities of a great story; the characters mirror each other, Abby becomes like Joel, and Ellie becomes like Abby bc she felt like she had no purpose after not providing a cure and then losing Joel. But she finally understands that Joel saved her from the hospital for her to ultimately experience a fulfilling life, not for her to waste it on grief and regret. So when she has agency over Abby's fate for the 1st time in SB, Ellie chooses to spare her and moves on to seek real help for her PTSD.
The story expands on TLOU1's themes of grief, sense of purpose, and trauma, but the creators said the script is laid out like the pacing of a novel with all the POV switches, flashbacks, and the epilogue. It's not a story that's traditionally made for a videogame, so not everyone could understand it or connect to the characters. The creators also said they didn't want to make forgiving Abby "too easy", so they already knew it was going to be controversial. But for the show they might change that approach, bc with a passive experience, characters need more screen time for viewers to get attached. Plus it'll be easier to do POV switches and time jumps like they did for season 1.
Mean muscle lady kill nice man. Game bad.
Me too!!!! The reason why I want to make game artist my job haha
@jay2thaudy human psychology is bad, human players react normally to guardian figure dying to stranger angrily, THEREFORE humanity= bad, game GOOD, Society baaad, moralizing GOOD. Everyone else wrong, me right.
There’s something you missed here. Abby’s part of the story, the “fetch quest” as you referred to it and the battle against both the Scars and WLF on the island in order to find and save Lev are an indication of Abby’s entire belief system crumbling. In the end, she chose to go against her own people (WLF) even killing some of them in order to protect Lev, a kid she barely knows but has developed a kinship with in a short time. This mirrors Joel’s motive in part 1. A result of which was inevitably what cause her to kill Joel in the first place. Then she ends up doing the same thing. So Abby’s story doesn’t just connect to Joel & Ellie’s story, it mirrors it, and makes both stories as a whole even more emotional and thought provoking.
Solid points. Idk, to me it still felt too long. Maybe that's just an overall pacing issue. Still really enjoyed the game and the story tho!
I loved the switch between Ellie and Abby. I thought the end of Ellie’s gameplay in the theatre was the end of the game. I didn’t like Abby at first so I was so shocked that we got to play her. And as I played her, I began to like her and see her side of the story. And it completely blew my mind how they were able to do that. Doing it like that worked for me in the video game, and I have to say Abby’s part was definitely the most badass and the best part in the game. But I trust that the show will be just as amazing. They did such a good job with season 1, so I have no doubt.
Fair enough!
this guy casually drops another top tier video on TLOU
My guy
Just wanted to comment to say - I can't believe you only have 109 subs! Watching this video, with how well it's been executed and thought out, felt like something any of the large content creators could have produced. Keep it up! Also let's make it 110 :D
Thank you so much that means the world to me! We're on the grind
I wonder if they could have made some decisions to help the player grow attached to Abby more before she killed Joel. How it felt to me was "Hey I know this new character just killed your favorite character from the first game, and you just spent 12 hours hunting her down, BUT we are going to make you play as her because we want you to feel the exact opposite of how we just spent the 25 hours of gameplay in this series making you feel."
To me, that was the entire point though. It made us play as this character who was nothing but a complete villain, forcing you to try to empathize with her through her 3 days in Seattle. By doing this, the impact of the ending is entirely dependent on the player's understanding of Abby. They made us hate her, then tried to reel us back in. It was incredibly ambitious, and I respected that. I think it worked well for me, but I could see why it didn't work as well for others.
@@thoughtprojectI can agree and say it was ambitious, but in my perspective and opinion it failed miserably because there were so many moments that portrayed Abby as a uncaring monster. I think a good example I can use is how ellie reacted to killing a pregnant woman. She was horrified about what she just did, but if you compare her to Abby who almost looked like she was in joy killing a pregnant woman. They tried to make a character sympathetic, but there are not that many redeeming qualities to said character.
I think abby wasnt as sympathetic as Ellie was because Ellie had literally just killed Mel and for all she knew Ellie killed her knowing she was pregnant. not only that but Abby doesnt even end up killing her so i think it was done pretty well. I know where you're coming from seeing we played in ellies perspective more so its easier to take her side however i dont think abbys redemption failed, sure a lot of people dont end up forgiving her but a lot do it just comes down to the player
@@stur3366She had just lost her friends and one of the only people she cared about since childhood. She wasn't on good terms with Mel but through her perspective someone just came in and killed a baby so I'm sure that added fuel aswell. We literally just playing 10 hrs of Ellie for revenge. I don't know about you but I didn't give 2 sh!t about Abby's group at the beginning of the game. I just wanted them dead. They even give you the information that Mel(this character you don't know) was pregnant at the start of the game. Did that information cross my mind while I was hunting them down as Ellie? Absolutely not. I've played the game multiple times and there was no pleasure on Abby's face when she was about to kill Dina(who in her mind is just as responsible as Ellie and Tommy). It was just rage. Which Lev was able to calm with just one word.
I think intertwining the stories would make sense in a TV show. I had a similar thought after playing through Part II and if they intertwined the stories instead. However, I do think Naughty Dog took the right approach and really gave us a chance to play as Abby. If I was switching between both characters the whole time, I don't think I would have given Abby a fair chance.
It's a rollercoaster of a game in both emotions, action, and just pacing in general. IMO, it's not meant to be a fun/super enjoyable experience. But more of a challenging one that really made me think and I appreciated that.
Honestly couldn't have said it better myself. The divisive reactions were inevitable based on the route they decided to take for the game. I really liked it, and others hated. It really challenged us emotionally in a way that I've never seen from a videogame, and I appreciate it. I just hope the adaptation is slightly less controversial. Thanks for the comment
exactly. and honestly, they WANTED us to have that big emotional moment of putting the controller down, yelling “FUCK NO IM NOT PLAYING AS HER?!” and eventually sitting back down to see the story out, and see her side. risky and divisive, but EXACTLY how they wanted it to go. plus it just wouldn’t play well back and forth. but the show can do that, though i am sad my parents won’t get to experience that defiance at the devs😂
True I just think there was no way that story could have been perfectly implemented into a video game.
Took 3 years to cope with Joel's death.. finally got around playing part 2. Its a great sequel but the way they did it divided the community.
Exactly.
when i watched TLOU2 (on youtube lmao) and saw peoples main issues w it, I immediately prayed that the didn't split baby and ellies sections into 2 separate seasons. Although i appreciate her section and enjoyed it, it will be laborious to sit and watch almost a whole season of just her especially when it is so isolated because of the time it will take to produce another season. like we wouldn't have seen ellies story for over a year. If they decide to switch back and forth each day i think it would be pretty effective, especially because when i got to abbys part i kinda forgot that ellie had been to those same places, and i think for example if we see ellie kill nora and switch back to abby seeing her just hours before that sort of insane. But it could drag on for a WHILE before we get to the end of the last day even if they do cut out chunks to improve the pacing because we are seeing the same three days twice, chronologically, just reaching that final point will be painful. IM hoping they expand a bit more on santa babra where the game couldn't cause of the already ginourmus time and side characters. just glad the show will be able to hopefully improve upon the original story and mould somewhat to the complaints of fans
Time will tell!
I agree. I hope they spend more time on the cults and militias that popped up during that time.
Great video! I also firmly believe Lev needs an entire episode dedicated to his story. It felt so capsuled and far off from Abby and Ellie that it just did not get the space and time it needed. Similiar to Bill and Frank it needs its time to breathe and have more emotional impact.
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed! And yes, they definitely should do a Lev (and Yara) bottle episode, since it seems like there's so much more story to tell there.
I think part 2 is perfect. Can’t wait to see how it’s adapted
I cant wait either!
Same! I loved Abby as a character, so interesting. Can't wait to see who plays her.
The way I see it, season 2 can begin this way. It can start from Abby at the park before seeing Jerry murdered and then the rest of the season can adapt the flashbacks of Ellie and Abby growing up in Jackson and Seattle extended into a nine or ten episode season's worth of character development that the game couldn't give us and then end with Abby mauling Joel to his demise. Season 3 can adapt the three days in Seattle between Ellie and Abby and then end with their final brawl on the foggy beach of Santa Barbara. That can easily repair the pacing of Part II's storyline. Better yet, give Part III's release some breathing room before that's adapted into live action and the show doesn't wing it's own continuation like GOT did after there were no more books left to adapt for that show's source material. Part of the reason the last few seasons kicked the bucket for that show's viewership. A rabbit hole TLOU should never go down as well.
Great take! Let's see what happens.
The more I think about all possible narrative ways this could have been shown to the viewer, the more I think they chose the only right path there was to achieve the level of emotional response that they did. For a video game that is, not sure if it would be the same for a tv show.
I agree, it's a shame it was so divisive though. Let's hope the TV format will appeal to more people
A lot of people were mad solely because Joel died, and while I didn't like Joel dying, I accepted it as part of the narrative for Ellie's story.
What I didn't like was exactly what you say: We have to tolerate Abbie at a time when we really do not like her. I hate following the story of a character I didn't like.
And I never came to like her, either. When the ending finally came I was just so extremely dissatisfied because Ellie killed all those people to get to Abbie, just to let her leave, and then goes home to find everyone she loved is gone.
I get what they were trying to do. I understand the intent. I just didn't like it. For the adaptation, idk what they can do to change my mind but i'm still gonna watch it.
At least you kept an open mind. It just didn't work for some people. It worked for me, but I can understand why it didn't for you.
SPOILER FOR RDR2
I was kinda shocked when I had to start playing as Abby, but I for one quickly accepted her as my main protagonist and liked playing her as well as Ellie (and Joel).
I think I looked at it from the perspective of Red Dead Redemption - when I played the first game as John Marsden I remember how much I wanted to play the endgame as him and not his son. So when RDR2 came out I was bummed to play Arthur Morgan - but as the game progressed I fell in love with Arthur and was heartbroken when he dies in the end. But I finally got to play as John Marsden in the endgame - but all I wanted to do was to play as Arthur. It's funny how your mind plays tricks on you - and I think reminiscing back to that realisation made TLOU2 more acceptable to me even though it's not quite the same thing.
@@gooddoggo3547 Imo people put way too much weight on the game trying to push some kind of morality or deciding what’s good or bad when in my eyes it was purely about every story having two sides.
i think the way the story is structured in the game is actually perfect for the video game medium. the flashbacks help inform ellie and abby’s mental states as they plunge further into despair. and that mid-narrative flip works so well BECAUSE it’s a game. not in spite of that. in a show though i’m open to making it more chronological, but i want the flashbacks to remain as flashbacks
I'm glad you feel that way! I more so had an issue with the overall pacing (the screeching halt at the theater climax) so I think rearranging the events chronologically for the show will help prevent that.
@@thoughtproject yeah i’m definitely open to it with the show. i just think it needs to be the way it is for the game to do what it’s trying to do.
enjoyed the video! can’t wait for season 2
When do you propose in the show they kill off Joel?
I feel like that would somehow be saved for a Season 2 cliffhanger, considering how well Pedro’s Joel was received by the both the new and old fans.
It’d be tough to end his beloved portrayal of the character so early on.
I'm not sure they would be able to make a whole season leading up Joel's death, Craig Mazin already said it was going to stay true to the majority of the source material. I hope we get at least 2-3 episodes before his death though, ideally opening with the museum flashback. I think they could make a damn good premiere out of it, thus giving the audience a little more time with Joel before he meets his demise.
@@thoughtproject ideal outcome
Amazing video,when you made a cut of what the end of season two could potentially look like with Abby, threatening Ellie I got chills! Idea that maybe they could stretch the game into two parts and I have the season two finale be Joel getting killed.
Thank you! I'm not sure if they'll make an entire season leading up to Joel's death, but I guess we'll see!
I think it might work well to start season 2 immediately telling the story of Abby, eventually hitting us with the surprise that her father was the Doctor Joel killed, and then climaxing with the end of the season being Joel's murder. Season 3 returns to Ellie and follows her revenge quest, finishing with the final fight. The trick would be the introduction of Abby as something other than the killer of Joel immediately from her introduction. Get the audience attached to her and identifying with her BEFORE it's revealed where her path collides with Ellie's.
Interesting idea
It's always awesome to see people analysing a game such as this and taking the time to talk about it in a balanced way. Absolutely fantastic video my dude. I loved every minute
Thank you so much
I’m a ten year TLOU fan boy I love part 1 and part 2 I love the pacing in both games and I love the show and im excited for season two and I’m excited for part 3 🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷
I loved part 2 as much as I did part 1. And while I do understand the pacing critique and many people have their own ideas of how part 2's story should've been done for better pacing, there's one part of the story that literally no one seems to take into consideration: Abby's revenge mission has already ended, where as Ellie's revenge mission just starts. Therefor, narratively, it makes sense for Ellie's 3 days to be so focused, where as Abby's 3 days would LACK focus. I mean, what new focus would Abby have to have at that time? She was dealing with the aftermath of her completed mission. Her sudden fetch mission led to nothing as Yara got killed anyway, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because her arc was about accidentally finding something else to keep fighting for in Lev, just like had happened to Joel with regards to Ellie. Joel was also just living his life as he normally did, without a real interesting focus, UNTIL he met Ellie. Having understood that, I had absolutely no problem with the pacing of part 2. I mean, I truly have no idea how you could do the story any different and still get the same point across. Therefor I also had no problems with the third act, as I understood where it stood narratively in relation to the 2 previous acts.
So my question is, knowing that Abby's part was (most likely) purposefully starting out without a clear focus (leading up to her redemption) and why, how should the story then have been done to increase the pacing, while at the same time driving home the same narrative point?
You bring up a very valid point. However, for a whole 10-12 hour section to lack focus in a videogame is a big reason why a lot of people disliked Abby's campaign. Narratively, it makes sense, but for many it wasn't fun to play. With that said, I genuinely think they can adapt the same story beats as the game and it will be more effective since we aren't playing as Abby, we are simply watching her storyline play out. I hope that makes sense.
@@thoughtproject Most haters didn't play Abby's portion of the game if they played at all they honestly have no clue what Abby's portions contain as they didn't play it and run off heresay some don't even watch full clips for full context they watched edited snips so they can have agendas so I don't think they actually get what OP said to me the down time for Abby is what Joel was doing before he found Ellie as abby is just post raider joel moving into father joel role as the story goes on.
i feel like it would definitely be better switching though abby and ellie’s perspective so we can get behind both sides and also not get bored with the show
Agreed
never understood why people were SO insistent that abby had to die even after the final fight, i grew up playing the last of us and my dad looks and acts exactly like Joel, so the game was very devastating and difficult for me to replay, but i feel like in a way we do get that revenge we wanted. by the end, abby is a shell of a person. she’s lost half of her body weight, lost her love interest, all of her friends, her dog, and even her home, she has no where to go but now has a new life to take care of, she’s worse off how we left her than she would be dead
Well said!
A friend of mine loved Last of us part 2 on his PS4. He even let his wife's boyfriend try it and they both loved it so much that they left the wife and started a family of their own .
what XD
I hope we don’t see Joel die again (in S2) because I personally wouldn’t be able to watch that again due to the memories I and we all had with him and Ellie. But if Joels death doesn’t happen then the Story would have to be dramatically changed.
Yeah, it's probably going to happen. I just hope we get a little more time with Pedro than we did with Troy Baker in the game.
@@thoughtproject I also understand why many people hate part II and it’s mostly because Joel’s death and it’s because they lost an important character they bond with. But part II is surely not a bad game I just wish Joel died like a hero. Hopefully they’ll do it better in season 2
Cry more you pu$$y
It's a more viewer friendly experience, they don't have to work a controller to sneak around camps of WLF or Seraphites, or kill the Rat King.
I just hope they don't miss any of the high octane moments like Season 1 had no Gymnasium Bloater Boss Fight in Bill's town.😢
You can always just watch gameplay online I guess.
For me, that was just such a big moment in the first game, getting caught in all of Bill's traps.
If they wanted to, they could technically get three seasons out of the story from part two. I personally think that they're really good at expanding and giving us new stuff with the last of us TV show. And considering that the story in part 2 is two seasons worth of narrative alone. They could also get a whole other season just concentrating on the 4-year between the end of the first game and the beginning of the 2nd
The showrunner Craig Mazin said they were going to stay true to the majority of the source material, so I'm not sure they would create a whole season of strictly new material. I think 2 seasons is good for Part II's adaptation, with the right pacing.
The producers stated they will depart just enough from the actual game so it "becomes its own thing". That's a pretty big hint Pedro Pascal's character won't be killed early, or even killed at all, in season 2. He was after all responsible for alot of the success of the first season. So unless they plan on cramming more flashbacks with Joel, I expect a "slight" canon change in which Joel survives the attack, or gets killed much later in the season like in the last episode or even until season 3 when everything ends.
Source?
From one of the co-creators himself "However, for those hoping that season 2 will get the same treatment when it finally arrives, things might be a little different. Craig Mazin has now teased that season 2 will be "different" and "be its own thing." Speaking at a virtual press conference reported by Variety, Craig revealed that plans for season 2 are starting to take shape, and that it will be both "different radically" and "barely different at all" from The Last of Us: Part II game." . I can't post links in youtube comments so just google it.
Interesting! Can't wait to see what they do then!
This is an incredible video bro, I can't wait to see you at 1mM subs
Thank you so much
@@thoughtproject oh you will with this quality
after watching the quality of this video i was SHOCKED to see how small your channel is. i love the content, keep it up
Thank you so much! That means a lot
i think the first episode should be ellie and joel living in jackson, ellie becoming friends with dina and jesse and dating cat, and then it fades out and abby and her friends hunting joel is introduced
then the next few episodes are the exact scenes we see in the game just in a better order for pacing(as u said)
and then the last episode is the whole theatre thing, but it SHOWS lev and abby letting them go. that way the next season can start with more focus on ellie and dina's development, tommy's development, abby and lev, abby and lev at the one place with the sadists, ellie's battle with ptsd, and then goes towards the santa barbara section of the game. i just think the show has an opportunity to delve into a lot of things that ppl want more of, while fixing the pacing to better fit the story AND a tv show
This is so underrated! Congrats on producing this video, it's so well put together :)
Thank you so much! :)
I could see the season finale being Joel’s death. And then season 3 being Ellie’s revenge.
Very possible
After playing the game myself, I think if the game had played out chronologically vs factoring in a bunch of time jumps and flashbacks the game would have been much better received. It would have felt like a more seamless blend from “The last of Us” that we all know and love, to the much darker and more intense feel that part II brought to the table. It also could have maybe even allowed them to omit the Santa Barbara chapter all together making the message of the game and it’s conclusion resonate much better rather than it feeling more drawn out like it did. Mind you the Santa Barbara chapter was my favourite both gameplay and aesthetic wise, but it felt like it lacked drive and purpose
Preach.
Maybe in the show we can see a bit more of abbys friends and thier friendships and jesse and dina flashbacks
I hope so!
Man, people really do be forgiving a game's story a lot for what theoretically it was trying to do
I actually kinda think the complete opposite. I always felt Part 1 was much more suited to TV, because it flows better, simply has more relatable characters and has a perfectly resolved ending that makes total sense. The central narrative drive of Ellie's immunity is relentlessly building up all the time, along side their burgeoning relationship. On top of that you have the major bonus of it being a wonderful 'origin' story.
The fact that Mazin has already admitted Season 2 is going to be drastically different to the game, much more than S1, probably tells you the difficulties they're facing making a TV show out of it. Fans of TLOU2 are going to need to have an open mind I feel, it's inevitably going to cause a lot of complaints I reckon.
Sure, Part II might be more difficult to adapt, but I think it will work better as a finished product. The fact that they now have the creative liberty to change some things around to make it flow better bodes well, and that goes double for Mazin confirming it will be more different from the game. Sometimes, when done right, unfaithful elements from the source material can go a long way.
I'll say ths: I haven't played any if the games but I watched the 10 hour long movie version of the game they made, and in this version everything is in chronological order. So this made Abby very very likable, and even Owen, Mel and Alice too! Honestly I absolutely loved it, even more than TLOU 1, but the pacong and the order of the scene is completely different so this is one explanation.
I still dont understand why they couldn't tell the story in chronological order.
If we had known right out of the gate what Joel had done to Abby, we might have felt whatever sympathy Neil wanted us to feel instead of the intense hatred that erupted across the internet.
And it would have helped with the pacing of the game by a longshot, since we already play as Abby in the prologue, so jumping back and forth between her and Ellie would have worked.
I played TLOU Part 1 and 2 back to back for the first time right before the TV show came out. Part 2 is far superior in every aspect, specially story wise. Even with the coin flip from Ellie to Abby I kept an open mind and it truly got to me. The final fight had me crying and begging for them to stop. Perfection... I replayed Part 2 numerous times just to play as Abby, she rules.
I love to hear that!
I think they can potentially make it work but it's going to be difficult when so many people love Pedro Pascal and I think it's gonna be hard to forgive Abby for what she did.
Yeah I really hope they can pull this off.
honestly I think the opposite. I think pedros Joel was not really that great and for that reason people will be less outraged than they were at the game version’s death
@@persolus689i disagree. Pedro brought a lot of humanity to Joel as a character, he is far more compassionate and inherently lovable. The entirety of part one Joel is very much a hard ass (for good reason) but Pedro’s take felt so human and alive and ugh, his death will definitely hit me harder i’d say.
@@damimami5144 that's interesting. i'm glad you were able to get that out of your watch, cuz i found him incredibly lifeless compared to troy baker's joel in the original game. i thought baker did the hard-ass joel much better, incredibly visceral and merciless, while pedro seemed like he was sleepwalking through the first half of the show -- before he became a literal half corpse for the second half of the show -- and was incredibly toned down in his kill count (which i understand is inherently going to be lesser in a TV show than a video game). he didn't do the accent as well, his lines weren't delivered as well, and i just thought overall he was a remarkably useless character that wasn't given much to do and didn't do much with it, compared to his video game depiction which ultimately made him one of the most beloved game protagonists in all of video game history. that was just my reaction though.
edit: just wanting to add thoughts about how i found baker more compassionate too. like i really felt that connection between him and ellie throughout the game, and him sobbing over sarah's death felt a lot less forced than pedro's performance to me. when he calls ellie 'baby girl' after she kills david in the game, my heart broke, i was itching to see how heartfelt the show version of that scene would be, and it was just him waddling up to her mumbling that it's him while she starts shrieking, found it kind of ridiculous personally. anyways.
I finished the game yesterday. The ending made me emotional
Same. I was very conflicted after my first playthrough, and felt like I was going through so many emotions at once
That's actually the downside of the TV medium. Throwing us into the shoes of Abby with agency after having lived out Ellie's revenge almost to fruition was absolutely necessary - intertwining would have diluted the sense of rage that was required to experience Ellie's side
I suppose, but a VIDEOGAME is predicated on how much FUN you are having while playing (generally speaking). When you tackle these kind of intense complex themes and weave it in with fun shoot em up gameplay, I think some of the message can be lost in translation. This is why I think a story as dark as Part II will work better when you are simply watching it, not playing it. Maybe I should have stated that more clearly in the video!
The only thing I’m very concerned about is the lack of spores and how that affects the story. I loved this game despite its pacing being very bad on the first play through, and to me two of the biggest parts of it emotionally were Ellies mask breaking and Dina almost sacrificing herself to “save” her, and Ellie killing Nora. Both of those scenes to me were absolutely huge. Also, Abby’s actress not being big is a problem even bigger. With most characters it’s just a physical trait, but with her it’s a major part of her character and motivations. It’s literally a response to her father’s death, and her inability to protect him. That scene at the end, with Abby being taken off the plank with all her mass completely gone just isn’t the same at all without her starting the game absolutely yoked.
I thought the same thing when they cast Ellie, and how Ramsey did not resemble her in the slightest. I was proven completely wrong, and she was an amazing choice for the role. I have faith that HBO got this one right too, but I see where you're coming from.
This video showed up in my recommended feed, I haven't really been able to articulate how I have felt about this game since playing it. You're pretty much dead on, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You earned a sub for the quality of this video, hope you make more!
Thank you so much for the support!
i love seeing somebody actually support part ii, while recognizing it’s flaws in pacing.
Thank you!
I think you're probably right, but one disadvantage of your proposal is that the Abby twist will lose its impact, and Ellie killing Abby's friends will show her in a negative light. I think the point of separating the timeline is to slowly make the player realize the consequences of their actions, but if it's happening in parallel, it might just feel less meaningful.
That may be true, but I still think they should change it up somehow. Because I don't think fans would be happy with weekly episodes during Abby's timeline. Just a thought
Personally, I think intercutting Ellie and Abby’s stories would lessen the impact for me. Being absolutely swept up in trying to get revenge as Ellie and then the whiplash of being shown the opposing perspective after and confronting all the atrocities I had just committed was partly what made TLOU2 so special imo.
Then my subsequent shift in perspective as Ellie becomes the villain, and me judging wanted them to stop was so emotionally effective. I feel that if the stories were interconnected, you would never be fully on board with Ellie as you were in the game, and then never fully feel the gravity of your actions when being confronted by the opposite perspective.
That is a solid point. But at the same time, I'm not sure as if the game format would work well as a show, especially considering there would only be 1 episode per week. If we were stuck on Abby's perspective for the majority of a season, I think it would lose a lot of viewers.
@@thoughtproject yeah for sure. I think TLOU2‘a uses its structure to take advantage of its medium, to make you feel complicit in Ellie’s actions, and it subvert the idea of faceless NPC’s as obstacles that’s present in so many games including so many of Naughty Dog’s previous works.
The show will most definitely have to restructure to try and take advantage of the new medium.
seeing how well they put depth into minor characters for tlou1, and as someone who actually really loves abby, playing as her, her character, her parallel's to Joel and Ellie, im really excited to see if anyone reaches a better understanding of Abby because of the showrunner's ability to do that to past characters. Many fans hate her and i hope the show does more to show why ellie and abby are so similar and why she's actually a really well done character.
Preach.
Another awesome video , you’re criminally underrated bro! can’t wait to see new vids like these
Thank you so much!
Great narrative. I can only summarize my feelings about TLOU in one way. I had a life before TLOU and I have another after playing TLOU. And I'm not that young...
Have to agree with U, one of the most immersive games I've ever played and I loved both.
Every time I hear the guitar chords from the menu... I just thank to god I'm alive.
Well said.
as someone who knows nothing about the game your review/recounting of what happens in part 2 had me in goosebumps, bewildered, shocked, intrigued, like i cant believe a VIDEO GAME did all of that
Oh yes. This game is insane lol
Awesome video! I'm so glad you said, Make no mistake, She isn't forgiving Abby, but rather forgiving Joel ... (I'd like to add), AND HERSELF. I also agree with you on many things. I'd also like to say, everything has a budget. People want more action setpiece which is probably extremely expensive to make for this show. Considering the success of season 1, I hope HBO gives a raise to the season 2's budget ceiling.
Thanks so much! I'm glad you agree with me, and yes, I think HBO gets a bigger chunk of the budget for season 2. I'm glad you enjoyed!
loved the video. just finished the remaster on PS5. Completely agree with what you said about understanding how people loved/hated it. Seeing as how Abby has now been cast for the show, it would seem they are starting with the flashbacks since the actress looks to be still very young. I'm not sure but it looks like season 2 will be based on the flashbacks we saw in part 2 for both Ellie and Abby. This leads me to believe that along with the flashbacks, there will be original plotlines to go along with them.
Thanks for the support! I am so eager to see what they do with season 2, and how much they play around with
No. I honestly don't want to even remember that this sequel exists.
Come on now.
I declare an algorithmic blessing on this video
Thank you
seeing the thumbnail and title of the video, I thought this was going to be one of those gateways to hating P2 over and over again but surprisingly you were very honest and understanding in alot of aspects of the game which I love alot. of course, I disagree on some things you said, specifically more on the pacing of P2: I heavily believe it's justifiable in alot of aspects cause I don't know what other better way they can tell the story. also I feel like there's more impact to P2 story because of interactivity, with the HBO show it won't have that obviously. I just feel like P2 works better as video game because of, well, interactivity. I do have high hopes for the adaption, I just don't know how they can pull it off. on the bright side tho, the film/series lovers will have more perspective and understanding than the video game community.
also, awesome video by the way, I forgot to mention that and you deserve a subscriber! ❤
I appreciate that so much
Ellie day 1
Abby day 1
Ellie day 2
Abby day 2
Ellie day 3 (cliffhanger for next episode)
Abby day 3 (conclusion of cliffhanger from last episode)
This is how the episodes for the show should go.
Im still trying to understand the vitriol for this game and its story. Great video. I appreciate and am ok with the pacing and split stories. It will be interesting how thy handle it in the show. I can see positives on following the game or switching between in real time.
Whatever they do, my hopes remain high for Part II's adaptation. Thanks for your support!
Critics of the game have not been shy with the many critiques to be had. To not understand is an admission of ignorance.
You should not be proud to be ignorant.
I didn’t mind Joel dying but I hated the way the creators made his death. It was so undignified and based on Joel’s out-of-character decision to reveal his real name. It cheapened his entire arc in TLOU 1 and made me furious. They could’ve given him a more heroic death, in my opinion.
Fair enough
Interesting, I don’t agree at all. Joel’s death works because in that moment we realise how far Joel has come around as a person between the first and second game. At that point, he was the caring and considerate to others Joel, why would he think anyone in that room knew who he was?????
@@kamakazilee6066 because he spent years surviving and taking care of Ellie that he should've been more prepared when he encountered Abby et al. I find it difficult to believe that he would just let his guard down like he did. It was disappointing more than heartbreaking for me. I don't mind his death but not in a thoughtless, 'let's get rid of him quickly' kind of way.
I’m late to this party but a side episode of Manny in Mexico with his mom and dad would be amazing. Showing how he lost his mom and made it to the PNW with his dad
I think with it being a show the pacing would definitely need to be changed as you can't force the 10 hours of gameplay to make the player to start to understand the story. So should be interesting to see what they do with it. Also just subscribed this was a great video. love the talking over and discussing a games core themes and values through the story.
Thanks for the support!
6:00 I think they really missed an opportunity for Tess’s words from her and Joel’s last conversation to echo during a big moment. That one thing could’ve reminded most players of the truth and resulted in less outrage
Good point!
I have this sneaky suspicion that they might go with the original start for the story from part 2. But, like the TV show, I am keen to see what Mazin will add to the existing story.
My thoughts exactly. Mazin is gonna spice it up.
Yes, exactly! This has been my stance ever since I finished the game. The immersion as Abby from a gamer's POV is completely lost because the player has already been conditioned by the SAME writers to 'be' Joel and Ellie from the first game. Hell, all of the themes, emotions, understanding of the world of the first TLOU is entirely predicated on our ability to resonate with Joel and Ellie's relationship and their interaction with the rest of the world.
For the writers to expect the player to 'become' Abby, and for example, have the game restart when we die playing as her, even though nothing we want more from Ellie's perspective is for her to die, is a complete contradiction that ignores the fundamentals of how gaming storytelling is supposed to work. I am almost certain at least 90% of the player base intentionally threw Abby in front of Ellie in their boss fight at least once, because none of wanted to stop 'being' Ellie (which is literally thanks to the writers in the first place.) TV show is definitely the better format for this story.
Absolutely true. While I did enjoy the story, and even felt empathy for Abby, it took too long to get to the end. I did like that Ellie spared her too, but again, it could have came way sooner. Simply watching Abby's plot play out on a television screen will work far better than actually playing as her in my opinion.
I think having players play as Abby was done intentionally for us to feel so conflicted. I mean, as the video points out, Ellie's horrendous acts also made us feel conflicted, as many players grew to dislike Ellie a little bit and just wanted her stop, while simultaneously still rooting for her, as we understood where she was coming from. In my opinion, all these conflicting emotions led to Abby vs Ellie being one of the best boss fights in gaming history. Yes, I was one of the 90% that had Abby killed first. But going in with so much inner turmoil while at the same time finding out how dangerous Ellie actually is was in my opinion masterfully done. For most players to by the end not want either Abby nor Ellie to die, makes me believe that all the conflicting emotions we felt was intentional.
I actually think that if the show could make us feel the same way, it would benefit the show. I mean, aren't the best shows the shows that make us FEEL something? Whether it be anger, hate, sympathy, empathy, fear or happiness, wouldn't it be a good thing to have people talking? In my view at least, it would. I personally think the game's divided fan base was caused more by the attributed wokeness (caused by the leaks) that made people rebel against it, than the game's story structure or even Joel's death. I think that with it now being years ago and the rage having died down, the story structure, whether it be in the game or in the show, might not cause as much rage as it did before. But of course, that's just my view.
@@neil8701 Yes I think for the narrative side of things it certainly achieved that idea and many other surrounding themes, concepts etc. very very effectively! I definitely won't say I wasn't hit hard emotionally by the game by any stretch
The part of it I didn't like is that at the core of it, I think there is simply something intrinsically 'wrong' 'backwards' with being expected to feel for and be Abby. It had less to do with negative emotions around the nature of the story, but the ability to be immersed in the game itself. One of the elements of video games is the illusion of having some level of control, and through the nature of the first game, we are fundamentally told that we are supposed to BE Ellie in this game. We are supposed to think irrationally and we are supposed to bypass any empathy we could possibly even have for Abby unless Ellie HERSELF starts feeling those things. Why? Because that's exactly what we did as Joel in the first game. Killing all of the innocent fireflies in the hospital to save Ellie was a very very wrong thing to do, but as the player we are not prompted to feel guilty because we ARE Joel, and due to his love for Ellie he (and therefore us) would do it all over again. All of this sets a fourth wall precedent about our expectations as the player that we tend to just accept, kind of like how we just accept that all the gunshot wounds the characters in the game take should probably severely injure them and make it impossible for them to press on but we ignore it for the sake of the game.
Your opinion is definitely valid and what you described no doubt I experienced but the above issue keeps eating at me a little bit.
I think a potential solution would be to play as a different wolf who is on the same side as Abby, but who knows, maybe it wouldn't impact in the same way
I spent all yesterday afternoon playing Part 2 and when I got to the flashback of Ellie’s birthday I was genuinely crying.
Easily my favorite scene of the game
The most important change the show needs to make is have the Abby flashback be the cold opening of the first episode. The audience knows Abby's motivation immediately and will crushing tension with new viewers when Abby meets Joel.
The other changes i would like to see is if they cut out the rattler and theater scene and instead have the first confrontation be at the aquarium after Ellie killed Owen and Mel. After fighting for a bit Abby escape with Yara to The seraphite island to find lev. Ellie would travel to the island where she and Abby would eventually fight their way out of the island after Yara's death and once the two reach the boats is where the final confrontation appears.
I love Part II!!! Its the gift that keeps on giving, or at least it keeps on giving to me. I'm excited but equally nervous about how HBO adapts Part II into Season 2, possibly a Third Season as well.
Agreed!
we share almost the exact same outlook on this game, I adore it but my god that brick wall halt was truly jarring.
Abby has some of the best sections in the entire game, Lev is fucking awesome but it was hard to fully enjoy because the impact from that sudden stop lingered through every moment, I'd love to see them jump between characters how the game never could.
Couldn't agree more.
i hope and pray if they come out with a director’s cut of the game, they add a chronological mode for the seattle section, kinda like beyond two souls remaster did. The hard cut is jarring even on replays.
I wanna see how will they do the ratking in the film😭😭
Me too!!
Just finishing playing this game for like the 20th time yesterday. And man i love it. I think the 1st episode should be about joel and ellie but the rest about abby have her story explained then ellie. Thats just me i also like the story happing at the same time. What is the biggest thing that will spread out between s2 and s3 is if we are getting a TLoU part III. I think that be definitive on where they break up the seasons.
I really enjoyed Part II as well. I think it's gonna get more than one season, which will hopefully be good timing for the release of Part III.
@thoughtproject abbie just has to be well built, and that can only happen with time and not jumping episodes. So that we have time to marinate with her and grow into her more I think it would be ballsy to have the confrontation at the theater be the end of season 2 be crazy because we already love ellie but now we are more torn between them fighting. Idk that's how I see it. Took like 3 play throughs, but I finally got abbie and really enjoyed her story, and honestly, she's more fun to play as in my opinion lol I'm excited no matter what Craig and Neil did an amazing job with S1 so I trust them. Great video by the way. Very thought out and got me thinking!
Personally I think they plan to add seasons to cover the in between the jump between part 1 and part 2. Primarily because its a cash cow and the creator has mentioned adding to the story and doesnt feel tied to only 2 seasons. Also that would allow them to use Joel more than part 2 did. I kinda think story wise its probably a mistake bc I don't feel like the show was as emotionally deep as the games were, but im sure it will do well financially anyway, which is the point I guess.
That would probably be a good change to make, but time will tell
I’m happy maria got more depth in the show, I loved her interactions with Ellie in part 2 and I’m happy they got more in the show
Facts
People need to understand these are two different mediums, in a TV show you can do it in a proper way. But in a video game you can’t because it’s a game in which the audience has to be engaged with. So that’s why part two was the way it was.
That’s fair, I just think if they do anything different with the story and how it plays out, you lose the effect the game had on its audience. There’s no point in changing around story beats to try suit a general audience, people will love or hate it regardless
This is a great analysis. I have played this game sooo many times, and I'm still with Eliie, coupled with Abby's stupid dad pulling a KNIFE out on a feral man trying to save a girl who became his. He and Marlene could have waited a whole 1 day, they waited decades in the apocalypse, what was one more day to tell Ellie and Joel and to LET Ellie make up HER mind? Yeah Joel took something from her, but so did Marlene and the, "Good Doctor," by completely denying them all, (everyone involved,) a chance. To me Abby responded the way Ellie is when we get to play as her. I don't blame her like I did the first few playthroughs, but to me her flaw is that she keeps ignoring that her dad LACKED any common sense which got him killed, and we see his lack of sense during the flash back sequences. He, (The Good Doctor,) started all this, NOT Joel .
It’s only controversial because people didn’t like Joel being killed, but he deserved what he got in the eyes of the families he destroyed. Abby isn’t the villain and people hate that and it’s for no reason. It’s only controversial because Ellie is gay & people really hate that & that’s something they have to deal with in their own miserable lives. It’s only controversial because there’s a transgender character and again, people are showing how they truly feel about these people. There’s nothing heard scratching or confusing about this game. It was literally made so you have different perspectives and not just the 2 you play with in part 1 and once again, extreme, yet toxic fandom has people believing the game should’ve been made for what they want & that’ll never be the case. Both games are masterpieces. I watch these videos not to hear y’all opinions, but to simply support your channels (yours and those like it). Everything was done on purpose, the pacing, the timing, the action set pieces, the built up tension, slowing it down, etc. Listen, they’re not supposed to care about what the die hard fan wants and especially with how the game is executed, which is more than fine as well. If Season 2 is executed like part 2 of the game, the intensity will be much higher and it’ll be extremely successful, I can bet money on that.
I give them a lot of credit for taking the route of such a risky narrative structure, it was unlike any other game I'd played before. I just hope the adaptation will be slightly less divisive.
It’s all a matter of opinion because I enjoyed playing Abby’s part of the game more than Ellie’s , this game is a masterpiece in my option and I think the way it was told was absolutely perfect. You got to see two sides of the same coin.
I took care to avoid any and all spoilers when I started my first play through of TLOU2, which was pretty difficult because I didn’t experience either game until TLOU part 1 on my new ps5 a few months ago. So of course I was curious to see how others felt after completing part 2.
Have to agree with what you say around the 6:20 mark - I just wanted it to stop. I just wanted for both of them to suddenly see each others perspective so they’d finally understand each other and move on. I love that it wasn’t black and white, just like the ending of the first game.
TLOU1 was a masterpiece, but I guess I’m in the minority when I say I found TLOU2 even more enjoyable.
I'm glad you feel that way! To this day it still gets way too much hate.
After 4 years I finally understand this game
I'm glad to hear that!
EVERYTHING about The Last of Us works better as a show. I'm not saying that to indicate that I prefer television over gaming or anything, but because The Last of Us fails as a game in every conceivable way besides being functional. You can strip its story away from its (for lack of a better word) interactive nature and all you'd lose is the boring corridor walking, baby-degree puzzles, and the manipulative attitude of guilt-tripping your audience over violent murdering that these characters perform in cutscenes that the player has no control over.
Agree and disagree with what you said. But yes, I do think that Part II will perform better as a show.
Amazingly put together! Love the details, great job!👌🏼
Thank you so much!
i can’t wait to see how they do joel’s birthday suprise for ellie
Facts
My idea for season 2 and 3 would be to do the game in reverse order. One to lend more shock to Joel's death and second to lull the viewers into a false sense of security by pretending that The Last of Us is a series of loosely connected standalone stories. Season 2 opens showing off life with the WLF and introducing us to Abby and her friends. We get to know them for an episode and find out the problems they have with the area around the stadium they call home. Episode 1 ends or episode 2 begins with the ambush on Abby in the truck when she goes out on patrol. We follow her thru her story and she learns someone is attacking various WLF compounds and it doesn't seem to be the Seraphites, and that they are picking off her friends, maybe we see the results of one or two of their murders. We get flashes of what is going on with Joel and Ellie bonding like we do in the flashbacks in the first half of the game, so they can string us along and still give us some of what we love from the two of them. As season 2 comes to a close we get word that they think this has something to do with Jackson, and the finale ends with her getting back to the aquarium and tracking the killers back to the theater. The last moments end with Ellie being held at gunpoint for killing her friends and instead of Ellie saying her "I know why you killed Joel" line, Abby cuts her off before she can reveal that Joel is dead with a "We let you go and you wasted it".
This way the audience gets more sympathetic Abby and is left with the cliffhanger of wondering what happened to Joel. When I played thru Part 2, the beginning of Abby's story almost felt like a redemption arc meant to make me not loathe her. By the time I reached the halfway point I was on board with liking Abby and hating (in a good way) the choice I was being forced to make and the choice both of these characters I really liked were being forced to make. In season 3 episode 1 we would get to catch back up with Ellie and Joel and watch the beginning of the game and the first half of Part 2. We would see flashbacks of a younger Abby in this season, and as we closed in on the last few episodes of Season 3 we would have the reveal that Joel killed Abby's dad at the end of season 1 to save her. Season 3 would end with the confrontation between Ellie and Abby and them going their separate ways.
Season 4 would be the last section of Part 2 with Abby and Lev getting captured, Ellie and Dina living after the events of Washington, and then Ellie tracking Abby down because she can't let go.
I personally believe if you do anything different from Part 2, you immediately lose the effects the story has on the audience. Part 1 was fine (it was much more linear, was smaller in scope and characters) and they had room to do their own thing. But Part 2 is in that category with Jaws or The Exorcist, if you remove a piece of those puzzles, it’s immediately inferior to the original product
You are a underrated RUclipsr man you made such a great video
Thank you so much
Great job dude...we need more of your content FR! Keep it up.
Thank you so much! More on the way
I disliked the story of the second game, I really appreciate your ability to not bash on people who didn't like it.
It would be hard to save the story for me but I do think it could work better if structured differently.
Absolutely! I respect everyone's opinions as long as they respect me. I'm glad to hear your position. Thanks for watching!
Fair enough you didn’t like the game, but if they drastically change anything from the 2nd game, it wouldn’t be anywhere near as impactful story wise as the game is
@@kamakazilee6066
Lol, you know I actually agree with this..
Some person: Was TLOU2 good?
Me: it was...impactful...
I never understand why people think that knowing a character dies devalues that character’s story or means it isn’t worth following. It’s like the classic Romeo and Juliet where it starts with their deaths from the very beginning. Knowing Joel dies in part 2 doesn’t make Part 1 any less of a story. For me it was still really interesting to learn about characters like Owen and how his relationship with Abby developed. I’d like to see even more about his story. Just because I know Ellie kills him doesnt change that.
I just think that the creators didn't pull it off as well as they intended to. I think that if the audience found out organically (along with Abby) that they died, it would hold much more weight. Especially considering that Mel and Owen aren't particularly that engaging to begin with, and it more or less stayed that way even through Abby's point of view. They're obviously not written in the same stratosphere as Romeo and Juliet lol. But I totally understand where you're coming from.
I think as long as they fix some of the massive problems from the game such as not having Joel die so early and in such an out of character way, or trying to gain sympathy for Abby through blantent and lazy emotional manipulation like showing she likes dogs, or ignoring the fact the Fireflies were a terrorist organisation instead of some group of saviours, then it could work as a show.
Interesting take
i think that if they had switched abbys and ellies controll parts, the pacing would be even better
All of your "issues" with Abby's half of the story are LITERALLY THE POINT.
I will continue to reiterate this: THEMATICALLY, it makes perfect sense, but it doesn't work as well as a videogame when we are going through the same motions and same action set pieces going on 20 hours. It tended to drag on. Make no mistake, I really liked this game, but it could have been much shorter and still packed the same punch. I'd still argue it would work better as a TV show, because there's opportunity to fix some of these drawn out sections.
I'm a little late to this, but still found this interesting. What would be a year ago or so, me and my friend discussed this and we both agreed that the Last of Us part II works BECAUSE it is a game. Compared to books and Film/tv, you, as the player, ARE Ellie and Abby. The player plays as the killer of Joel, forcing their morality to be challenged. It works so well because first we feel the grief and anger of Ellie, consumed in her violence. Then when we get to Abby, we want to go back to Ellie, back to getting our revenge. When you suddenly become Abby, you are forced to experience her story, her life, and we start to question our beliefs about Ellie's revenge, in a way, it's an empathy test. If you compare this to TV, the personal connection is more absent, thus showing Abby will feel like showing the villain.
While that may be true, I still think the show will work better as a finished product. A big factor is that there's definitely a ludonarrative dissonance between the KILL KILL KILL of the gameplay and the anti violence message of the story at the end, which is why many people couldn't resonate with it. They also now have the ability to build off the source material, which can go a long way as we saw in season 1. I see where you're coming from though, I do, and I appreciate this perspective. I'm just trying to suggest ways to make the pacing more digestible. Nevertheless, adapting Part II will be a challenge, but I commend them for taking a leap.
@@thoughtproject let me start off by saying that I appreciate your response. It's definitely daring to try to convert such a daring narritive to the TV screen. While I agree that the pacing of the game is a little off (I think both Abby and Ellie's part should have been a little shorter), the whole descision of switching POV's at half the game is what makes the story so powerful, and doing this chronologically might not achieve the same effect of morality. about the ludonarrative dissonance, I believe the message of the game isn't "Violence is bad", since you can do violence to do GOOD. For example in The Last of Us Part 1 where Joel uses violence to save someone whom he loves, Ellie. The reason the violence is 'bad' is because Ellie does it for her own selfish needs, and the point is that this won't fix her trauma, nor will she forgive herself for not saving Joel. Compare to this to Abby, who bent on revenge travels all throughout the US in search of the man who killed her father, yet when she kills him, the nightmares are still present. It is only through Yara and Lev that she finds purpose, a reason to keep going, and you can see that after this, her nightmares begin to fade. Essentialy, Abby experiences the aftermath of her revenge while Ellie is pursuing hers. In a way, she is 'ahead' of Ellie. About the "KILL KILL KILL", there is somewhat of an argument there, it is a videogame after all. However, the point (I believe) is that we're just as consumed in Ellie's rage as she is herself, the reason why we kill all these people is for our own selfish gain, under the pretense of 'I must avenge him'. The violence is bad, but not because violence in itself is bad. Compare this to Abby, who defends herself by killing people, trying to save Yara, etc... This violence, I wouldn't call 'bad'. I might have gone a little off-track here but this game is my favourite of all time and I think this comment is still not long enough. I want to end on the note that I believe the show could fix some things (The game isn't perfect), yet I'd be thoroughly impressed if they reached the same level of emotional maturity that the game portrays. Thanks for the souls reading this lol.
All valid points. I'm just thinking from a TV perspective, and I'm not sure how fans (those who played the game AND those who didn't) would react if we got episodes upon episodes from Abby's POV, which would be weeks. I feel like it could lose some people, so switching up the narrative structure in a creative way could mitigate those risks. Just my thought process, but I appreciate your comments! Love to go back and forth with viewers, as long as it's respectful