I hate this. Some courses just label the first course “beginner,” their second course “intermediate,” and their third course “advanced,l regardless of what the actual content is.
Most of it should be from natives, but having some guidance from a non-native who has achieved fluency can be very helpful, especially with tones. Usually the approach to overcoming issues with tones can be unique and more tailored to non-natives when it comes from non-natives. It isn't necessary, but it has helped me so I can see the value.
There is value in the non-native teacher. I am a non-native teacher of Japanese, and there are things that I can show my students that many native teachers have never thought about. I am also a native-English teacher and it took me eons to figure out how to explain the difference between “a” and “the” which most languages outside Europe don’t seem to have. Same thing for sounds that other languages do not differentiate. Sometimes a non-native is great for explaining how to hit a certain sound. For Thai, which is tonal, I have a few native teachers and one non-native, and they focus on very different things. Interestingly, my Thai teachers are all just glad when I am able to respond but my French teacher is super tough and corrects every pronunciation mistake. That said, the Michel Thomas method involves listening to language learners practice and the principle makes sense in a documentary sort of way, but it is probably not the best idea for learning any language, far less a tonal one, listening to hours of recorded dialogue from language learners. Apart from pronunciation errors, you will probably fossilize some of their grammar errors. For me, a better idea would be to have the guiding teacher say something and, instead of the learner students, there is just a space for you to answer.
@gogakushayemi totally agree, I just started teaching chinese and there are so many things natives struggle to explain and even help with the tones, because we had to learn them too. We know what language learners are struggling with and can help them overcome those difficulties. My best teacher wasn't native and he was the best, because he understood what our problems are and could help with his own experiences
Sounds sorta like this Chinese grammar book I found at a great price from a thrift store ... they have a "CC" and a "BC" version of the Chinese sentences ... "CC" meaning "Correct Chinese" and "BC" meaning "Broken Chinese". I guess you are suppose to compare the two to understand the grammar better. Uh no - for me anyhow seeing incorrect input is just going to make me constantly doubt everything.
This is how I feel about Japan’s love of mixed up sentences as a test question. I don’t mind it on Duolingo because you are immediately shown the correct order and you have to make the correct order repeatedly. However, as a test question, you see the incorrect order, answer with another incorrect order, and if the test is multiple choice, you are told the answer is C. But you don’t ever see the actual correct order.
Some things I have found for East Asian languages. First off, since there are so many differences between our Western languages and those of East Asia, that it takes a longer while to achieve the same things. For example, the writing systems are different, there may be pronunciation issues, etc, so if learning a European language starts at zero, an East Asian language starts at -10. So the beginner course should really be a low-beginner course, or you end up with an Advanced course like this. Another thing I have learned is that these big names in language learning have their methods they developed moving between European languages. And they usually just transpose their method onto a new language. However, for languages that are very different, there are a lot of things that do not fit in their one-size-fits-all method. As a result, I have my favourite courses from when I learned French, Spanish, Italian etc, but I don’t think any of the big names has a big name in Japanese or Korean. I did not even bother to try any of them when I started Mandarin.
I think the problem is that most people stop learning Chinese, because of the tones and the characters. So a person speaking little chinese is often considered advanced by chinese and non chinese. We usually start with 10 students, 3 stop studying in less then 3 months, another 3 after after 6 months. In our last class we often only have 2 students left. And we put much effort to make it easy for them, to give them a easy start, to feel comfortable. Another thing is, I haven't had one actually good chinese book yet. I studied sinology and I'm now studying teaching chinese and the best book I had yet is "the ultimate guide to Chinese" but its the fourth book, so you should already know about 5000 characters. I don't know if the books for lower levels areas good as. And there are still things I complain about in this one😅 And I probably wouldn't have come so far, if I hadn't had my first chinese teacher. He wasn't native and he would never use a book, because he has never seen a good one. Unfortunately, he retired after two semesters. After that, I only had native teachers and with some more complicated things I'm still struggling.
I wish I could take a class so much I might actually enjoy this course haha. That doesn’t sound advanced though. I’ve noticed that advanced means different things when it comes to European languages and more difficult languages. Basically, western publishers don’t make any advanced material for languages like Chinese or Japanese.
Could they mean advanced ad in this course is meant for learners that have an advanced background or they meant the course was advanced as in intensive?
If you’re making audios for a book you better have the right intonation otherwise you’re not taking the language seriously (you could’ve as well left it without the audio if you can’t find someone with the right intonation though). Also about the price it must be a personal project, because believe me if you print your own book is super expensive, expensive to the point the book costs you like an expensive book and you haven’t sell it yet. That’s why writers need editorials or otherwise will kinda just not really gain any money
did you listen to ALL OF IT? If the Chinese course is at all like the original courses (Spanish, French, Italian, and German) then that basic stuff you hear is just a review. It will probably touch upon more elusive grammatical concepts soon. As for the whole student part, YOU are doing it wrong, not the system. You're supposed to let the teacher give you feedback.
I hate this. Some courses just label the first course “beginner,” their second course “intermediate,” and their third course “advanced,l regardless of what the actual content is.
That's definitely not advanced. And as far as tones, you should never have a tonal language teach you with anyone but native speakers.
Most of it should be from natives, but having some guidance from a non-native who has achieved fluency can be very helpful, especially with tones. Usually the approach to overcoming issues with tones can be unique and more tailored to non-natives when it comes from non-natives. It isn't necessary, but it has helped me so I can see the value.
There is value in the non-native teacher. I am a non-native teacher of Japanese, and there are things that I can show my students that many native teachers have never thought about. I am also a native-English teacher and it took me eons to figure out how to explain the difference between “a” and “the” which most languages outside Europe don’t seem to have. Same thing for sounds that other languages do not differentiate. Sometimes a non-native is great for explaining how to hit a certain sound. For Thai, which is tonal, I have a few native teachers and one non-native, and they focus on very different things. Interestingly, my Thai teachers are all just glad when I am able to respond but my French teacher is super tough and corrects every pronunciation mistake.
That said, the Michel Thomas method involves listening to language learners practice and the principle makes sense in a documentary sort of way, but it is probably not the best idea for learning any language, far less a tonal one, listening to hours of recorded dialogue from language learners. Apart from pronunciation errors, you will probably fossilize some of their grammar errors. For me, a better idea would be to have the guiding teacher say something and, instead of the learner students, there is just a space for you to answer.
@gogakushayemi totally agree, I just started teaching chinese and there are so many things natives struggle to explain and even help with the tones, because we had to learn them too.
We know what language learners are struggling with and can help them overcome those difficulties.
My best teacher wasn't native and he was the best, because he understood what our problems are and could help with his own experiences
Sounds sorta like this Chinese grammar book I found at a great price from a thrift store ... they have a "CC" and a "BC" version of the Chinese sentences ... "CC" meaning "Correct Chinese" and "BC" meaning "Broken Chinese". I guess you are suppose to compare the two to understand the grammar better. Uh no - for me anyhow seeing incorrect input is just going to make me constantly doubt everything.
This is how I feel about Japan’s love of mixed up sentences as a test question. I don’t mind it on Duolingo because you are immediately shown the correct order and you have to make the correct order repeatedly. However, as a test question, you see the incorrect order, answer with another incorrect order, and if the test is multiple choice, you are told the answer is C. But you don’t ever see the actual correct order.
Some things I have found for East Asian languages. First off, since there are so many differences between our Western languages and those of East Asia, that it takes a longer while to achieve the same things. For example, the writing systems are different, there may be pronunciation issues, etc, so if learning a European language starts at zero, an East Asian language starts at -10. So the beginner course should really be a low-beginner course, or you end up with an Advanced course like this.
Another thing I have learned is that these big names in language learning have their methods they developed moving between European languages. And they usually just transpose their method onto a new language. However, for languages that are very different, there are a lot of things that do not fit in their one-size-fits-all method. As a result, I have my favourite courses from when I learned French, Spanish, Italian etc, but I don’t think any of the big names has a big name in Japanese or Korean. I did not even bother to try any of them when I started Mandarin.
I am a beginner in Mandarin and even I know how to say those things
Right?
I highly recommend 发展汉语series
Weii done, Lindie! More debunks, if thou canst.
I’m not even HSK1 in Mandarin, but even I can almost form those sentences, and could totally form them with a dictionary on hand!
Sorry to hear about it
]
I think the problem is that most people stop learning Chinese, because of the tones and the characters. So a person speaking little chinese is often considered advanced by chinese and non chinese.
We usually start with 10 students, 3 stop studying in less then 3 months, another 3 after after 6 months.
In our last class we often only have 2 students left. And we put much effort to make it easy for them, to give them a easy start, to feel comfortable.
Another thing is, I haven't had one actually good chinese book yet.
I studied sinology and I'm now studying teaching chinese and the best book I had yet is "the ultimate guide to Chinese" but its the fourth book, so you should already know about 5000 characters. I don't know if the books for lower levels areas good as. And there are still things I complain about in this one😅
And I probably wouldn't have come so far, if I hadn't had my first chinese teacher. He wasn't native and he would never use a book, because he has never seen a good one. Unfortunately, he retired after two semesters. After that, I only had native teachers and with some more complicated things I'm still struggling.
Are there any Mandarin books/audio that you recommend?
On my website 🎉
The Michel Thomas advanced Arabic course is the same. I don’t mind his method, but the advanced course isn’t advanced at all.
I wish I could take a class so much I might actually enjoy this course haha. That doesn’t sound advanced though. I’ve noticed that advanced means different things when it comes to European languages and more difficult languages. Basically, western publishers don’t make any advanced material for languages like Chinese or Japanese.
I do not think the big names of the West have any good courses for the East. Lol
I agree, Yemi. Courses from the actual country are far better.
Could they mean advanced ad in this course is meant for learners that have an advanced background or they meant the course was advanced as in intensive?
It's definitely neither
If you’re making audios for a book you better have the right intonation otherwise you’re not taking the language seriously (you could’ve as well left it without the audio if you can’t find someone with the right intonation though). Also about the price it must be a personal project, because believe me if you print your own book is super expensive, expensive to the point the book costs you like an expensive book and you haven’t sell it yet. That’s why writers need editorials or otherwise will kinda just not really gain any money
Pimsleur does it way better
did you listen to ALL OF IT? If the Chinese course is at all like the original courses (Spanish, French, Italian, and German) then that basic stuff you hear is just a review. It will probably touch upon more elusive grammatical concepts soon. As for the whole student part, YOU are doing it wrong, not the system. You're supposed to let the teacher give you feedback.
I listened to all 4 CDs. A huge disappointment regarding their leveling. Also you can’t give a teacher feedback on a pre recorded CD??
@@LindieBotes The teacher gives you feedback, not the other way as you said.
A teacher doesn't give you feedback on a prerecorded audio course
@@LindieBotes Not literally, of course. You think something through, say it, then compare your answer with the student and the teacher.
Make a better course