I grew up in abject poverty with absent and alcoholic parents. I am living the American dream. I had some benefits in terms of being a quick study, a risk taker, and a hard worker.
I love this debate, thank you. All great points. I It was done in such a positive manner which is not a small thing these days. I am surprised that no one spoke of individual, personal responsibility and choice that effect statistics. You can choose exercise ten minutes a day instead eating all the garbage offered in the stores, the escaping to chronic drinking, social media and drug of different sorts. Don’t get me wrong I like a glass of wine from time to time but I would argue that if most Americans did even a little bit of changing their habits they would be less lonely, less depressed and less ill. I am saying of course that some people do not need psychiatric medication’s help or have chronic illnesses that require medication. I’m talking about overall lifestyle and people preferring being victims instead of making changes in what’s not working for them and their willingness to do whatever it takes to change their trajectory. This is coming from someone who did, and more than once. Thanks again for a civil, healthy debate.
Tyler Cowen's opening statement applies to any western nation, and not specifically the "American Dream". As a Canadian, the dream is more about pure freedom to live my life how I want to live, which does not exist anywhere in 2024, but did in the USA. It goes well beyond financial improvement after leaving Haiti, or wherever.
The biggest problem is that people in America don't need particular people in their lives they just need people in general because of bad morals and high technology, this makes marriage much less likely and less stable than in the 1950s. People can't find people to marry because no one really needs them so much that they will put up with their peccadilloes. You don't need to have a personal relationship with people who do things for you like cops, doctors, farmers, manufacturers, mechanics, etc because you just pay money for those things, before people had no money and had to trade favors with neighbors to get things done so they had to personally know all these people and maintain reputation and now they don't. These speakers are focusing on money, markets, and opinion polls, they are looking in the wrong places. Most people are alone because no one needs us, that is the pain, not 401K and inflation.
This audience is not very representative of average Americans. I doubt anyone in this crowd struggles economically and I highly doubt any of them have to worry about where they will be living in a year and if they will be able to afford rent or ever have the privilege of owning a home.
"They voted with their feet" - Vladimir Lenin America attracts immigrants the world over. Based on Lenin's quote, it would say the American Dream is alive and well.
Maybe Lenin said this. But, in context, the idea is attributable to Charles Tiebout regarding public preferences in choosing where to live based on the ‘bundles’ of policies offered
To say that the United States is a more attractive place to live than many countries on earth has and will always be true. There are places on earth No one in their right mind would want to live. That wasn’t really the point of the debate. The debate was whether or not life had gotten better in America over the last half century, or worse.
@@jaredray7034I tend to agree with you in how you’re framing the purpose of the debate. I think the point of voting with your feet, that Cowen was talking about, was the abundance of diversity and choice afforded to us now, not necessarily many people choose to migrate here. “You could be eating Chinese food with David in Virginia.”
@@jaredray7034 Those people voting with their feet are stating unequivocally that the American dream is alive and well. Americans simply forget the level of effort their grandparents took when they arrived into the US to make the American dream possible. It is this loss in memory that makes people people believe that the American dream is an illusion.
A dear friend once told me, “the baby boomers climbed the ladder of success…… Then pulled the damn ladder up after them.” Can’t help but feel that she made a pretty good point. 😂
Your friend is playing the victim card. The reason the boomers did so well was the RAPID EXPLOSIVE growth the US experienced, but no one talks about that.
I listened to an economist give a lecture at Cambridge discuss that the Boomers setup the economy to benefit themselves, everyone following after them has hit hurdles put in place to make sure the boomers never lost their place at the top.
I would like to see those who believe the American dream is both alive and well address Americans' rampant distrust and pessimism. The "yes" side of this debate briefly spoke to politics affecting perception and misaligned personal choices, but it must be said that our social fabric seems to be unraveling and our attitude is despairing. This has to matter.
Income inequality is the political correct term for envy. Why does it matter how much more money someone else have? It should only matter how much liberty I have to pursue what I want to pursue. Anybody who is envious is the cause of their own unhappiness. People didn’t come to this country for income equality. They came for the liberty (freedom from government coercion) to pursue the things that makes them happy which may or may not be wealth related and also in different degrees. So if the American dream is disappearing, it’s because liberty is disappearing. Not because Jeff Bezos made a lot of money creating a huge amount of consumer surplus for all of his customers.
The notion equity flips the commandment of 'Though shalt not covet' from a sin to a virtue. What sort of inner peace can a person have when they are taught to be envious. There will always be someone with more. Obsessing over it makes life a hell.
Income inequality isn’t about envy; it’s about survival. The middle class has been dying off for decades and the owner class has gained a crazy amount of wealth and control over the whole nation in that time. It’s class war alright, and the billionaires have been winning. They don’t just sit on their wealth, they use it to influence the government and capture more of the market and among us all pay more.
@@DisposableSupervillainHenchman Seems like the best solution to limit "billionaires influence on government" is to limit government powers and give people back their liberty. As for "capture more of the market" -- unlike the government, private companies and individuals do not have the power of the gun. They can't capture market by force, only via persuasion. Specifically, by offering products and services that will give the purchaser a consumer surplus. In other words, if Amazon is exploiting you, stop buying their products. That will terminate their ability to exploit you.
@@VeniVidiVid I would also discount equal opportunity. Today's outcome is tomorrow's opportunity. For example, the wealth you create for your family today becomes an enhanced opportunity for your children tomorrow. It should be equal treatment under the law only. That's what liberty is.
Well said. No two people have the same ability, desires, experience, goals or ambition. Why in the world would we assume that they have to have equal outcomes? Equal opportunity and treatment under the law? Absolutely. Equal outcomes? Absolutely not!
The point of comparing to the 1960s is moot. The expectations for a stable lifestyle has significantly changed with the innovation of modern technology. There are amenities that have been updated that add increased cost to your cost of living to be able to maintain basic communications in the modern systems, education expectations, cost of housing, cost of transportation both in vehicles and fuel. There are just a lot more factors to account for, which a lot of those being challenging you have people working hard and just treading water without a feeling of progress or a solid means of generating savings toward a retirement fund. Which these situations differ greatly from past generations but the systems in place were created by parents and grandparents to benefit themselves during their time and have made those systems hard to correct or redirect.
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" - Benjamin Disraeli (?) Frequently in the debate various statistics are used to prove a point. Using any aggregate number says little. How did that number come into being? Getting good statistics is hard. Data gathered from various sources is subject to differing methods. Life expectancy in different countries has too many moving parts to be useful.
I actually think the immigrant argument is a pretty strong one. Theoretically, most native-born Americans should have an advantage over those arriving on foreign soil in a foreign culture in an economy that may not recognize their education/skills. My guess is that the immigration process selects for individuals with a higher determination, but that’s difficult to measure. Regardless, how many immigrants have MORE opportunities than natural born Americans?
Bhaskar is stating things he does not fully comprehend. American with his views need to stop talking about Norway and other Scandinavian countries without being actually aware of all the factors, or purposefully ignoring al the factors that differ between those countries and the US.
Leonhardt cherry picks data and is not honest. The average US life expectancy is 2 years higher than it was 20 years ago. There are some slight fluctuations due to covid but he's painting a picture that is not accurate and a good example of cherry picking data. His other comments about housing affordability have deep causes that he does not address...many homebuilders think this is caused by excessive regulation that prevents new homes and keeps prices high. there are very simple solutions to problems like this....
And differences between life expectancy in different countries is also colored by infant mortality. And infant mortality is colored by the definition of when a live person begins. The same incident in one country may be counted as a stillbirth or miscarriage, and in another country may be counted as a live birth, which then dies.
The american dream is dead. The audacity! People tell you their live quality is diving hard, they cant afford anything anymore, and these Pro-Dream people just go: Hey look! There is a successful immigrant! You are just grumpy, hihi. That`s just gaslighting.
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I grew up in abject poverty with absent and alcoholic parents. I am living the American dream. I had some benefits in terms of being a quick study, a risk taker, and a hard worker.
What’s the average income in that audience? I bet there are virtually no poor people in it.
What’s your point?
I love this debate, thank you. All great points. I It was done in such a positive manner which is not a small thing these days. I am surprised that no one spoke of individual, personal responsibility and choice that effect statistics. You can choose exercise ten minutes a day instead eating all the garbage offered in the stores, the escaping to chronic drinking, social media and drug of different sorts. Don’t get me wrong I like a glass of wine from time to time but I would argue that if most Americans did even a little bit of changing their habits they would be less lonely, less depressed and less ill. I am saying of course that some people do not need psychiatric medication’s help or have chronic illnesses that require medication. I’m talking about overall lifestyle and people preferring being victims instead of making changes in what’s not working for them and their willingness to do whatever it takes to change their trajectory. This is coming from someone who did, and more than once. Thanks again for a civil, healthy debate.
I meant to type I am NOT saying that some people don’t need psychiatric help, etc.
As an Albertan God bless America and her dreams....
I do believe the American dream is still very much alive and well. I just personally prefer a more limited government.
it very much it is. Issue is: INSTANT GRATIFICATION. People want their shit now, with little work.
Tyler Cowen's opening statement applies to any western nation, and not specifically the "American Dream". As a Canadian, the dream is more about pure freedom to live my life how I want to live, which does not exist anywhere in 2024, but did in the USA. It goes well beyond financial improvement after leaving Haiti, or wherever.
The biggest problem is that people in America don't need particular people in their lives they just need people in general because of bad morals and high technology, this makes marriage much less likely and less stable than in the 1950s. People can't find people to marry because no one really needs them so much that they will put up with their peccadilloes. You don't need to have a personal relationship with people who do things for you like cops, doctors, farmers, manufacturers, mechanics, etc because you just pay money for those things, before people had no money and had to trade favors with neighbors to get things done so they had to personally know all these people and maintain reputation and now they don't. These speakers are focusing on money, markets, and opinion polls, they are looking in the wrong places. Most people are alone because no one needs us, that is the pain, not 401K and inflation.
This audience is not very representative of average Americans. I doubt anyone in this crowd struggles economically and I highly doubt any of them have to worry about where they will be living in a year and if they will be able to afford rent or ever have the privilege of owning a home.
Bari had the giggles that night. I was wondering what was so funny. 😂
"They voted with their feet" - Vladimir Lenin
America attracts immigrants the world over. Based on Lenin's quote, it would say the American Dream is alive and well.
Maybe Lenin said this. But, in context, the idea is attributable to Charles Tiebout regarding public preferences in choosing where to live based on the ‘bundles’ of policies offered
To say that the United States is a more attractive place to live than many countries on earth has and will always be true. There are places on earth No one in their right mind would want to live.
That wasn’t really the point of the debate. The debate was whether or not life had gotten better in America over the last half century, or worse.
@@jaredray7034I tend to agree with you in how you’re framing the purpose of the debate. I think the point of voting with your feet, that Cowen was talking about, was the abundance of diversity and choice afforded to us now, not necessarily many people choose to migrate here. “You could be eating Chinese food with David in Virginia.”
@@jaredray7034 Those people voting with their feet are stating unequivocally that the American dream is alive and well. Americans simply forget the level of effort their grandparents took when they arrived into the US to make the American dream possible. It is this loss in memory that makes people people believe that the American dream is an illusion.
@@EdanSaltz This is such an important comment that people tend to overlook.
It takes a lot of work and the dream doesn’t always feel like a dream.
A dear friend once told me, “the baby boomers climbed the ladder of success…… Then pulled the damn ladder up after them.”
Can’t help but feel that she made a pretty good point. 😂
Probably best not to stereotype, 'cause a lot of us Boomers are not high earners with pensions.
Your friend is playing the victim card. The reason the boomers did so well was the RAPID EXPLOSIVE growth the US experienced, but no one talks about that.
I listened to an economist give a lecture at Cambridge discuss that the Boomers setup the economy to benefit themselves, everyone following after them has hit hurdles put in place to make sure the boomers never lost their place at the top.
I would like to see those who believe the American dream is both alive and well address Americans' rampant distrust and pessimism. The "yes" side of this debate briefly spoke to politics affecting perception and misaligned personal choices, but it must be said that our social fabric seems to be unraveling and our attitude is despairing. This has to matter.
Income inequality is the political correct term for envy. Why does it matter how much more money someone else have? It should only matter how much liberty I have to pursue what I want to pursue. Anybody who is envious is the cause of their own unhappiness. People didn’t come to this country for income equality. They came for the liberty (freedom from government coercion) to pursue the things that makes them happy which may or may not be wealth related and also in different degrees. So if the American dream is disappearing, it’s because liberty is disappearing. Not because Jeff Bezos made a lot of money creating a huge amount of consumer surplus for all of his customers.
The notion equity flips the commandment of 'Though shalt not covet' from a sin to a virtue.
What sort of inner peace can a person have when they are taught to be envious. There will always be someone with more. Obsessing over it makes life a hell.
Income inequality isn’t about envy; it’s about survival. The middle class has been dying off for decades and the owner class has gained a crazy amount of wealth and control over the whole nation in that time. It’s class war alright, and the billionaires have been winning. They don’t just sit on their wealth, they use it to influence the government and capture more of the market and among us all pay more.
@@DisposableSupervillainHenchman Seems like the best solution to limit "billionaires influence on government" is to limit government powers and give people back their liberty. As for "capture more of the market" -- unlike the government, private companies and individuals do not have the power of the gun. They can't capture market by force, only via persuasion. Specifically, by offering products and services that will give the purchaser a consumer surplus. In other words, if Amazon is exploiting you, stop buying their products. That will terminate their ability to exploit you.
@@VeniVidiVid I would also discount equal opportunity. Today's outcome is tomorrow's opportunity. For example, the wealth you create for your family today becomes an enhanced opportunity for your children tomorrow. It should be equal treatment under the law only. That's what liberty is.
Well said. No two people have the same ability, desires, experience, goals or ambition. Why in the world would we assume that they have to have equal outcomes?
Equal opportunity and treatment under the law? Absolutely. Equal outcomes? Absolutely not!
The point of comparing to the 1960s is moot. The expectations for a stable lifestyle has significantly changed with the innovation of modern technology. There are amenities that have been updated that add increased cost to your cost of living to be able to maintain basic communications in the modern systems, education expectations, cost of housing, cost of transportation both in vehicles and fuel. There are just a lot more factors to account for, which a lot of those being challenging you have people working hard and just treading water without a feeling of progress or a solid means of generating savings toward a retirement fund. Which these situations differ greatly from past generations but the systems in place were created by parents and grandparents to benefit themselves during their time and have made those systems hard to correct or redirect.
These are so fantastic - the best
These debates are dumb. “Does life suck now?” Yes, yes it does.
Give modern phones and the internet to any past generation and they would’ve said the same and had the same debates.
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" - Benjamin Disraeli (?)
Frequently in the debate various statistics are used to prove a point. Using any aggregate number says little. How did that number come into being? Getting good statistics is hard. Data gathered from various sources is subject to differing methods. Life expectancy in different countries has too many moving parts to be useful.
I actually think the immigrant argument is a pretty strong one. Theoretically, most native-born Americans should have an advantage over those arriving on foreign soil in a foreign culture in an economy that may not recognize their education/skills.
My guess is that the immigration process selects for individuals with a higher determination, but that’s difficult to measure. Regardless, how many immigrants have MORE opportunities than natural born Americans?
Bhaskar is stating things he does not fully comprehend. American with his views need to stop talking about Norway and other Scandinavian countries without being actually aware of all the factors, or purposefully ignoring al the factors that differ between those countries and the US.
David Leonhardt - in the NYT and in this debate - espousing endless DNC approved talking points always…not original thought or deep analysis
Leonhardt cherry picks data and is not honest. The average US life expectancy is 2 years higher than it was 20 years ago. There are some slight fluctuations due to covid but he's painting a picture that is not accurate and a good example of cherry picking data. His other comments about housing affordability have deep causes that he does not address...many homebuilders think this is caused by excessive regulation that prevents new homes and keeps prices high. there are very simple solutions to problems like this....
And differences between life expectancy in different countries is also colored by infant mortality. And infant mortality is colored by the definition of when a live person begins.
The same incident in one country may be counted as a stillbirth or miscarriage, and in another country may be counted as a live birth, which then dies.
I did a Google I found two sources corroborating your point. Macro trends and statista.
The american dream is dead. The audacity! People tell you their live quality is diving hard, they cant afford anything anymore, and these Pro-Dream people just go: Hey look! There is a successful immigrant! You are just grumpy, hihi. That`s just gaslighting.
Yes. Apparently the American dream is dead for Americans and thriving for everyone else.
Ozempic is Danish, 😁
BS debate by BS people.. the dream is dead and people are barely making the ends meet..
1:06:15 all we have to do is expand on all the great things that Biden has done and utopia is ours
Oh, goody, cause I have been waiting for 3 1/2 years. Glad it is almost here.
@@KENTUCKYUSA1Two scoops, remember 😉 🍦🍦