PK-A22F high voltage module teardown with schematic
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- Опубликовано: 25 апр 2024
- I was kinda hoping this was a truly standard module that I could recommend for building DIY ionisers, but now I'm aware that there are other variants with the same name. These modules are suitable for other applications requiring high voltage DC at very low current. But the high voltage should always be regarded as being referenced to mains voltage.
The universal 110-220V voltage is really just fixed value resistors that get hotter when used with higher voltages. No problem, since we can stick a couple of sleeved quarter watt 18K resistors in series to help spread the dissipation when using above 200V.
The output voltage of these units is actually quite zesty compared to a classic ioniser, meaning they will potentially generate more charge in the air.
The principle of operation of an ioniser is that when a high DC voltage is applied to a sharp point it causes the air to take on a charge with respect to ground. That causes charged particles in the air to precipitate to surfaces in the room or makes them stick to filters in air cleaners.
A very slight electrical plasma (corona) discharge is also created at the ionisation tips, which results in creation of short-lived active air molecules as found in outdoor air, that have a deodorising and sterilising effect on the air as they revert back to stable molecules.
The use of carbon fibres is because they are very sharp and work well as ionisation emitters. Traditionally steel needles were used.
Here's a typical AliExpress listing for what looks like the same module:-
www.aliexpress.com/item/40002...
And one of the big spicy-mama ones, which appears to be universal voltage too:-
www.aliexpress.com/item/10050...
Here's a video about the big one, with a schematic:-
• eBay's biggest ioniser...
A video showing the construction of the voltage multiplier unit for 220 - 240V countries:-
• Chizhevsky ion generat...
And the Russian Nuclear Corporation Molecular Disruptor:-
• Russian Nuclear Corpor...
If buying the modules from eBay the keywords anion module should work.
Be careful about buying 12V modules. Because they create a high electrostatic charge with respect to ground they can stress the insulation or cause flashovers inside standard power supplies. Not a problem on vehicles or off-grid accommodation with 12V and grounded chassis, but if using with isolated supplies the negative on the low voltage side will need grounded.
If you enjoy these videos you can help support the channel with a dollar for coffee, cookies and random gadgets for disassembly at:- www.bigclive.com/coffee.htm
This also keeps the channel independent of RUclips's algorithm quirks, allowing it to be a bit more dangerous and naughty.
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Wow, as an engineer, I now feel stupid for not knowing that caliper trick! Thanks Clive for sharing these things
I think I’m losing my mind… I don’t get it! Link to an explanation video of the procedure please.
@@nelsondog100 it's basically subtracting out the two post radii at the ends of interval (assuming they're the same size).
@@nelsondog100Just think about it backwards. Measuring from the outside of one to the outside of the other gives a distance too great for the center to center. Why is it too much? Because you've gone half the diameter past each center. So, you need to subtract half the diameter, but twice. Setting the zero of a digital caliper with the jaws separated then measuring something else just gives the difference between the jaw separation and the zeroed separation.
You can zero the reading using either measurement then take the other for the center to center distance.
This is also the easiest way to measure the c-t-c distance between two holes, not just pins.
@@mikebarushok5361 Excellent explanation thank you very much. I’ve got one of the nice old-fashioned analogue callipers 🙂
@@blahblahblahblah2933 thanks ☺️
The center finding caliper trick is priceless❤
Oh how I have missed these videos where Clive gets very excited!
I can even hear the giddiness in his voice when he talks about these nifty devices :)
And by "excited" you mean "charged up to several tens of thousands of volts" right? (:
I was kinda enthusiastic while making the video.
My mood improved hugely at the start. "I shall put this out of the way. /crash/ It is out of the way."
The day has been crap so far but this made everything look at least tolerable. Never change, Clive.
What a handy tip for finding the centres with a caliper. If I lived another hundred years I don't think I would have discovered that! I had to go and try it out immediately of course.
Also works with the internal blades for holes.
Just watched out for uneven size posts/holes... not that I have ever found out the hard way...
@@farmersteve129 A little math is then required - calculate the average of the two measurements, inner (between the stems) and outside-to-outside.
I've lived 77 years and never knew about the drilling centres procedure. Don't know why - it's common sense now I do know.
tune in next week so see Big Clive build a 1 megawatt ion thruster....
Ok then 😂
Ceramic capacitors have lower capacitance as the applied voltage increases. It is a characteristic of ceramic caps. Can be as low as 30% of rated capacitance at max voltage. Not all brands/series of cer. caps are created equal. Film capacitors maintain capacitance as voltage increases.
I like the S-shaped "plastic welder" scar on your workbench, I have many too, easily done
What good timing. 2 of these were delivered yesterday, 12v versions, for my vehicles' heater ducts. Now i just have to work out where to fit them, somewhere just after the fan I think.
There is another variant you might find interesting. If you search my channel for the keyword Ioniser, and look for the unusual one with the green and white wires going to the emitters. It's literally designed for vehicles and has enhanced plasma cluster type functionality.
Lets check the schematic!
I can remember when I was a child, my parents had an Amcor ioniser, took it apart when they were out once and found it had a 1:1 isolation transformer (240v UK) whose output was connected to a cockroft walton mutiplier and a couple of big 1 meg resistors to four steel needles mounted at the front top of the unit.
It also came with a small tester which was basically a neon bulb and a high voltage 10nF cap in parallel, mounted on a small PCB. To test the ioniser, one would hold one end of the parallel neon/cap between finger and thumb, and hold the other end a few cm away from the needles of the ioniser.
The result is the capacitor would charge to the neon striking voltage and the neon lamp would strobe about once a second. Probably would not be allowed to sell that sort of thing today, nanny state and all that.
😂haha someone else who found traditional toys boring..👍
A neon behaves a bit like a SIDAC then!
The caliper trick is very useful, I have used it a lot. Just don't forget to zero it afterwards, or you'll be in for a bad time..
alright lads. no relevance about the vid but i fancied chatting with chums. i saw a jeff geerling vid about radio and loved it, he got an amateur ham license, a technician license he called it. i thought wow that looks great. and on my 50th birthday a few days ago i decided to do a new thing.so i just booked a foundation exam for next week. i never realised radios were so ruddy interesting. i have read the course, (foundation license now, by alan betts). i can't wait to tell my mum i've passed an exam (a bloke looks at you via your webcam whilst you do it! pretty cool for only 35 quid)
Thank you for the caliper trick. I will use it all the time in my 3d printed projects.
Finding the center this way would make for a good expression in FreeCAD when making drawing to pad. Thanks for that.
Love this video:) im always excited when a resin removal goes well
This one was much easier than the Sharp plasmacluster nightmare.
@@bigclivedotcomIt really was disappointing that you were unable to get that one reverse engineered. I look forward to the next. success or failure.
Thanks for the great vid, I had ordered 2 yesterday, great timing 👍
The world needs more high voltage. Thank you, keep working.
Candle flame is useful for testing function. The flame reacts to the ion flow.
Don't forget to re-zero your calipers before laying out the holes to drill. Ask me how I know. 🤡
Unfortunately I don't have to ask...lol
I love that with the caliper!
Very clever thanks Clive 😊
I had to replace an igniter in a 400w hps light the other day and decided to open up the failed one and it looked pretty much exactly like the module in your video
Ooo back to Saturday morning TV Zorro. 😃
Interesting video 2x👍
bought one of these a while back and modified my diy room air filtration system with it and now i'm changing the air filter a lot more often. but i am also sneezing a lot less.
I have two Bionaire F-150S air purifiers, vintage 1980's not made now because according to "science", ionized air/ozone should not be used indoors while being occupied by people with respiratory deficiencies. The reusable filters need washed weekly if not daily according to the restrictive flow monitor on the front of the unit. Yes I still use them from time to time, still breathing. Thanks Clive.
theres a big difference between 'ionized air' and ozone, ozone is definitely bad in fair amounts , ionized air, not so as long as negative ions, and not excessively concentrated, positive ions can make people feel worse not better!
A real ioniser only produces tiny levels of ozone below natural outdoor levels.
I'm permanently charged up and get sparks flying off my hands whenever I wear insulated shoes and I get near a grounding source. I sent a beauty into my turntable tonearm today and it made some pop through the speakers. Mind you it's not as bad as through my earbuds when I forget to remove them before standing up. I'm going to set my head alight one of these days.
3:10 neat! Makes sense when you think about it as subtracting one from the other when zeroing it out. Makes me wonder what else it can be used for as a quick calculation. Obviously we all already use it on scales, eg. "ignoring" or subtracting the weight of a pot.
2:34 that black connector looks very similar to the ones used in projector TVs to connect the mercury lamp to the ballast. I've taken so many of them apart and all of them used that style of connector
Interesting as usual!
“What the hack is he talking about?” “We have no idea, certainly not ozone.”
!!! I never knew that trick either, its so simple!
Many years ago I built a voltage doubler style ioniser that I found in the Everyday Electronics magazine that used to be sold at the time. The way that you tested that was by wiring a ceramic cap across a neon bulb, hold onto one end and point the other at the emitters. If the ioniser was working the bulb would flicker 🙂
i remember that, used to have everyday electronics from the mid 80s to early 2000s, still got many of them i think...
That simple tester was sometimes called an ionoscope. I sometimes put a neon and capacitor in series with the output of DIY ionisers to give an indication of the output current. Higher current makes the neon pulse faster.
I think, we have a similar high voltage module in our new oversized American BBQ. Earlier versions used to have a simple piezo clicker to ignite the propane. This one needs 6V. Nobody knows why they did this.
I learnt something very important : Don't leave the top lid of the BBQ closed after you have turned on the propane. Otherwise, you are in for a surprise the moment you press the ignition button. 😮🍔
Have a nice weekend, and cheers from Ohio 🍺
Oh no, not a ....
Oh, G'day Clive, um yeah... love your work man. 👍😉
Wow, never thought I'd see a SiDAC outside the classroom. Guess its about insulation properties in this case.
The first pcb and circuit we had to build back in High School, was a Voltage Multiplier, ceramic caps and Germanium diodes. About 60% worked.
Our first project back in electronics class in high-school was an
A/C powered, direct to the mains, Xenon strobe light.
Nothing like high-voltage, big capacitors, and bright light, to get a guy RIGHT up to speed on how bad electricity can feel if you accidentally come across it with your body.
At LEAST 30% of my classmates ended up getting ZAPPED because many people forgot, and didn't heed the warning, about discharging high voltage capacitors after powering up the circuit, disconnecting it, and working on it.
@davelowets : rotflmao.
ha ha ha !
Sounds like our classes were very similar.
I will never forget looks on the other guys faces. Something like a mix of surprize, pain, trying to remain cool in font the class.
Nothing gets your attention better than a few hunded volts, when you're not expecting it.
And I put my hand up, I've had my share of surprises.
But Clive seems almost immune. On the next Live Chat, ask Clive for the story of working on the Entry Gate at the Supermarket. lol.
I've been specialised in electronics for over 40 years, but I had never heard of a sidac. I looked it up and learned it's a kind of diac. 😀
Hope you have a nice weekend Clive!
You get a thumbs up just for unpotting that thing. Another informative video
Very Cool Clive !!
These are my favorite Big Clive videos. I've got quite a few ionizer's and Ozone generators. Plus LED videos too. 🤗
That *_SIDAC_* is also used as a _"crowbar"_ device in high end surge suppressors. (Think _Gas Discharge Tube,_ only with a much faster response time!)
We recently purchased 3 units made by 'Purifair', in which they stated that it cleaned the air without a filter. I opened it up and it had a module very similar to yours, with the same output specs, except it's driven by 5v dc via a USB socket. The only other thing in the lovely matt black aluminium case is a piddly little fan directly under the emitters which are mounted up at the top. The adverts were misleading as they intimated that these units were stand alone once they were charged. Funny thing is, even tho there seems to be a molding for a battery and some suspicious circuitry that looks a lot like lithium charger, there is no cell.🤔 I tested the unit by grounding the + probe of my dmm on the USB shell and held the neg about 1cm from the emitters (mine has 2, green wire, white wire) and read about 3v on the white and 1.5 on the green. I didn't see anything that could bump the 5v DC higher, so there must be something in the potted unit boosting it. Could you please give me your opinion on how this would work, also, how do the 2 emitters work? If one produces neg ions, does the other one produce +ions? If so, being so close to each other, wouldn't they cancel each other out?
Love your vids mate, keep up the interesting content! Cheers.
The modules with green and white wires often do have opposite polarities. You've got what sounds like a clone of a plasmacluster air sanitiser.
Clive. I had a thought. Do you know how you can buy those replacement furnace filters and they fit box fans? I noticed that some of them have a metal "chicken wire" across their faces. Would it be possible, recommended even, to have ionizers going and attach the positive or negative terminal to that wire/mesh? Would that attract more dirt and stuff to stick to the filter? I'm curious what you think.
If the air was ionised in advance it would increase the filtering effect of a grounded filter.
Always a good day when Big Clive uses his meat puppets to deconstruct things and then put together fascinating and useful devices🎉
Instead of needles or Carbon Fiber, I have had great luck using 12 gauge shotgun cleaning brushes (the bronze works, but the stainless ones last longer). Lots of sharp points. Work GREAT in furnace ducts or similar airflow.
The plastic welding stapple burn is so iconic.
Don’t forget to zero your vernier when you’ve measured the distance, it will save you lots of time.
Always interesting. Thank you, Clive.
Will an ionizer help to eliminate odours?
Also, can one substitute an NE-2 or similar neon bulb for the SIDAC?
Ionisers create trace levels of active air molecules at less than outdoor levels, but can reduce slight odours.
Neons used to be used as trigger threshold devices, but usually have to be buffered with a thyristor.
That surface mount output 20M resistor - I wonder how that compares to the surface leakage underneath it at 10kV
I still have one of those Mountain Breeze ionisers somewhere, I should have a look for it ...
Class video as ever. Can i ask the audience a question please? is the purpose of the current limiting resister to make sure the SISAC measures the voltage across the 100n cap rather than the mains voltage?
It limits the charge current to the capacitor. Otherwise the sidac would cause a dead short circuit.
I use a multi tip unit at the exit of a 20" box fan, th.at has a merv13 filter at the intake, for the smokey seasons here
i feel so dumb for not knowing that caliper trick at 46 years old!
Also, how is it that i just tore apart a broken air filter yesterday, saw the ionizer and wondered what neat things I might do with it, then see this video pop up a few hours later. what a fortuitous coincidence!
I'm in my 50's, and never knew it myself either.... 😜
Hahaa, what do our RF techies recognise right away when they see the 100n cap and the coil primary? Sure looks like a oscillator tank circuit and I bet it will shut down all AM reception with plenty harmonics. Mr Shango ought to check that out with his nifty new little spectrum analyzer 🙂
Funny timing, I just picked up an ionic breeze unit with UV-C the other day, found it on the side of the road. Seems to work so far.
6:00 it's important to make the sound, too!
Dear Clive, I can’t believe you didn’t try putting out a candle to see how strong your ionisers are but I still luv u.
Or smoke from a smoldering thingy. Makes you wonder about the guy who proved air is not nothing and all the other possibile ways to show the existence of air or air flow.
cheers clive
Neat video, thanks. I've always stayed away from these in my HVAC b/c I read the ozone can attack rubber and certain plastics. If true, it could mean a shorter life for rubber-feet, gaskets, etc in all my other gadgets 😢
It has to be a dangerously high level to affect rubber items quickly.
Rarely mentioned sidac? On this channel? 😂😛
I was somewhat shocked (no pun intended, really) to see the volt meter reacting so decisively (for lack of a better term, late at night) while holding it more than an inch away. I mean, yes, my degree tells me this will happen, but actually seeing it is still something else.
This reminds me of explosive decompression experiments we did on ourselves during university, I know the air should get cold and fog up, but actually experiencing it is something else. Another one would be getting silly from hypoxia, while breathing helium for a couple of minutes... or starting to giggle at everything above 3,000 metres, when climbing Mt. Fuji (FYI, use the Gotemba route, no tourists). I know, this should happen, I know why it happens, but actually seeing it, experiencing it yourself is something else, entirely.
If you want to find the frequency of a high voltage circuit using a scope, just make a 'sniffer' coil, when i checked my tesla coils, i used a piece of coax laid aagainst the NST output
The sniffers act as a transformer secondary ;)
i had the 10 strand one. it worked for 6 months then went dead. i put it in a drawer for a year and i retested and it was working again !
Relax osc ! First time I saw one was a circuit using a neon bulb, back in high school (~1973). I actually used a spark gap with high DC voltage, and measured the pulse rate, on a scope, at ~1.5MHz. Of course, spark gaps are commonly used with tesla coils.
Yeah, HV (HT) and oscilloscopes can be tricky Especially modern solid state ones.
So if you make one of these from a PK-A22F module, do you just plug it in and let it run 24/7 or is it meant for occasional use? And how large is the area it covers?
It runs 24/7. One unit will cover a typical room.
The 206 resistor is to reduce arcing which I discovered when researching image converter TUBES back in the 1970 era when I was running an electronic surplus store { I would have paid a lot to own one of these. ALAS !
Thanks :)
When you called them knobends, I was sure you we're going to say smeg heads😂
Yes, a digital caliper can be used as a mechanical calculator :P
I have on, a defective one, used in a hair dryer... The same one... In Brazil I can't find the solvent to open the modele like you dl
bought a cheap plugin ionizer the other day. took it to bits, and inside is a similar module, except the one i have runs on 5V
Be aware that the USB type ionisers can create quite a high voltage differential between the 5V side and mains ground. That can stress the insulation in some power supplies.
The ceramic in ceramic capacitors is a bit of a nightmare for some circuits. EG I's very high impedance (Gigs), gets magnetised, changes form so capacitance reduces, and has a dielectric absorption that has step changes so utterly useless in sample and hold circuits. The change of capacitance and (very slight) magnetisation can be got rid of by re-soldering. Most of this is only noticeable at high frequency or working at pA. Once you get down to electrometer levels of current you need teflon or polystyrene caps.
I have one of those modules here. It is different though.
It had a small circuit board instead of the bristles. Is the concept the same as far as a small build goes?
Thanks Clive for all the fun vids!
The function may depend on the board. If it's a white PCB with a track on each side and glows purple on one side it may be an ozone generator.
Ah, those vital components; nob-ends and ring-pieces! 😂
"Ignore what I said. Apparently anything goes." Lol I felt that one
The inductance ratio should be the same as the turns ratio, right?
To be able to tell without counting.
Quite a coincidence a i was checking those models on Ali yesterday and wondering if they worked. Guess they do. Will order one
You can also use the modules to make a static grass applicator if you fancy a bit of model making
The old way of testing your ioniser was to use a candle, the flame of which would be clearly "blown" by the ion stream.
I see high voltage... I click.
Have you looked at the DC ones? I wondered if you had any thoughts on those.
I have featured a few of them. They tend to be based on a single transistor oscillator.
Nice stuff indeed :-)
Wow, I had one of those years ago, with the two prong brushes, it was so weak I never saw any actual benefit to it, I did wonder about wiring one up to the inside of an air filter, but like most things never got around to it
Your ceramic capacitors, I have a suspicion that they're all places way too close together to be effective, maybe it would work better under a bath of baby oil🙈 though it is worth mentioning the last time I used fresh mineral oil for anything like that the voltage was so high it broke through and light up the bottle like a 500w lamp 😅
Have you discovered any way to measure the actual static charge in the air? I've never found anything that's particularly accurate unless you want to go in and measure things and do the math to work out the rough region it -might- be in, if all components were in perfect operation
Oops. I should have watched till the end b4 commenting lol 😁
One major problem with the ceramic capacitors is their precipitous loss of capacitance as the applied voltage increases. Even at 1/2 of their rated voltage the capacitance drops by about the same amount (Edit: Probably closer to 20-30% now that I think about it, but some are sensitive to poor PF in AC applications. Another reason not to use them in anything critical.) When powered, it’s likely the 22nF becomes 12nF or something similar. Y5U is even worse as it looses capacitance as it ages. Anything sensitive to changes in capacitance needs to use a high stability dielectric, which metal film caps usually are.
Hi Clive under the ioniser could you put a metal plate and connect it to earth with a sheet of paper on it and would the dust be attracted to that?
Yes. Some units go further and put a slight positive charge on the dust collection mat to make it a preferential dust settling area.
this must have been asked many times... your picture out of focus you explained focusing on resistors :) ... what camera do you use please. :)
Moto phone for the Macros.
sounds like an opening for a Big Clive..."A Scottish Breeze From Under Yer Kilt" Ionizer being sold!!
Hey, I've got that thing! It was too much underpowered for my static grass applicator, so I bought a more powerful one❤
Never heard of a "Sidac", heard of a diac though which works awfully close to your description. Is that a naming convention or is it another component?
Like a diac, but optimised for very high current and a choice of voltage thresholds.
Depends on what area of Japan. Some use 230, some don;t.
What did you use to de-pot and remove the resin?
A hot air pen and a lot of patience.
You mentioned getting close to but not touching and the result was charging with current. Is it possible to make a cattle prod that charges the cow without contact and delivering a shock later on contact? Is this the difference between electric current and static electricity? They say a capacitor does not actually store energy but some sort of difference between positive and negative….. is that static electricity? If so can a capacitor be charged with non contact? Is that what happened with the Hindenburg? Everything I learn makes me realize how little I know.
It's not really viable to do that.
Could a vandigraph generator be made with an ionizer like this?
It does impart an electrostatic charge onto your body. But at very low current.
Those little flecks on the paper had me reaching for my monitor to wipe them off.
😎😎
I have a stove lighter made from the same thing. It’s rechargeable. Explain zero cross please. I tried make an A/B switch using SSR’s for grid inverter selection for high speed switching but succeeded in connecting grid and inverter,,, bang! I thought buying zero cross SSR’s would make a difference but wasn’t going to chance changing all those mosfets and a new egs-02. Went back to a mechanical switch. You showcased the one I have.
"Zero Crossing" refers to an A/C component that switches back to it's original state when the A/C Sine wave falls to zero voltage, or "crosses" the zero volt line, during it's cycle after the component has been tripped by reaching it's preset voltage point.
There are components that have a different tripping point voltage, but they all reset to their high impedance state at the zero volt point during the A/C Sine wave.
@@davelowets if only there was way to make my idea work. Nobody on any forum would touch it and there’s nothing like it for sale.
what if we want to make a eletrostatyic grass applicator can we use one of these?
It might work, but not sure how much current is required.
That is shocking!
I already thought this video was going to be uniquely directed at my particular vein of interest, I became unusually aroused @17:30 when I realized that it was about to get a bit more pointed toward my goal. Thanks, Clive.