And where did a spineless plan of reconstruction get us? The morass of the Antebellum South is exactly where it got us. The deliberate, unchecked financial and civil oppression of the newly-free by the Southerns when they should have been forced at gunpoint and by gavel to conform to Northern expectations. And it spawned alternative cultural continuation of the Confederacy through policies of racial segregation and racial oppression via the "separate but equal" doctrine (and later through increasingly-abstract dogwhistles such as state's rights, forced busing, opposition to the welfare state, etc.) that to this day is determined to mire the Union in political paralysis and sovereign debt to nullify any exercise of its power.
@Marik Ishtar I agree with you on the former statements about why reconstruction was a problem, but I disagree with the latter... yes Johnson was an inept leader & Grant, while not a politician, was easily swayed by individuals within his cabinet...I have to take in the human factor, which is so very hard in politics because we often see our allies/opponents as sub-human, in one way or another. We must also consider the source. The important thing about history is that we learn from it...And learn from it we have in both good and terrible ways... ways in which we are still fighting today...And ways in which everyone wants their own interpretations of the past to be the contemporary view of The United States of America. It's very easy for a contemporary historian to look back at the past and say what was good, what was bad, what was ok, and what was not ok, etc. Unfortunately hindsight has always been 20/20 and the best decisions that could have been made were made and the worst decisions that could have been made were made… simply put, We have always been on the same side… specifically we all want what is best for the United States of America, and the individuals who live in her, because this is our country… and while we may differ on many issues our goals remain the same and that has always been to try and make this the best country we could make... Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail… And sometimes we fall in between the two... Whichever side we fall upon says more about our person then really what it is about the country...
"I don't give a goddamn about the people or what they want. This is the face of someone who has fought long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of them." I've always loved that line.
@@benjsmithproductions I think there’s no shortage of politicians who say they’re doing what’s best for the people, even if those people are too dumb to know what’s best for themselves. Stevens just happened to be right.
“I don’t give a goddamn about the people or what this want. This is the face of someone who has fought long and hard for the good of the people, without caring much for any of them. The people elected me... to represent them.” What I love about this is the self-knowledge in it. The man knows what he’s been hired to do.
Reality is that most voters prefer politician who can put up at least the appearance that they care about them, and that the politicians will vote the way their constituencies want. I suspect Stevens just happened to represent the more "liberal" part of the country back then.
I don't think the people hired him to start a second civil war right after they were wrapping up the first one. His plan would of gotten a ton of freed slave's killed because he wanted revenge.
@@phucle2076 Comparing Stevens to a modern day American politician is apples and oranges. The mindset between the two is the same, the opinions are different.
Lincoln's view was pursued in Grant's administration. There were no mass appropriations, but the rights of the newly freed Blacks were protected by those federal controllers, Sherman Sheridan, etc. Then after Grant was out the protection was lifted and the former slaves began to thave their newly acquired rights taken away. By the 1900s they were mostly gone and the social damage caused thereby has plagued the nation ever since.
I believe that Lincoln's assassination might have been the single greatest political disaster in American history. It meant that Reconstruction was to be handled by Andrew Johnson, a racist who sympathized with the plantation owners and allowed, even encouraged, the southern states to enact discriminatory laws and practice voter intimidation. In short, he enabled the creation of what became Jim Crow, and even encouraged it. Lincoln would have handled Reconstruction beautifully, but Johnson opened up a floodgate of regression that not even Grant's administration could stem. Had Lincoln survived, there might not have even been Jim Crow; who knows.
@@LordZontar How do ya figure??? Pres Trump is going to go down in history as the best Pres since Lincoln !! He's fighting for our nation over Globalists aka Geo Soros, along w/ HRC, and Obama who want a NWO. Do some research !! Besides who are you going to vote for ?? Biden suffered two brain aneurysms, one on the right side and one on the left. Each required surgery with high risk of long-term impact on brain functionality, then he suffered a pulmonary embolism, a major complication. all in 88' Another operation to repair a second aneurysm, which had caused no symptoms but was at risk of bursting, was performed in May 1988. The hospitalization and recovery kept Biden from his duties in the Senate for seven months. In 2013, Biden said, "they take a saw and they cut your head off" and "they literally had to take the top of my head off." ref: wikipedia 🇺🇸🙏Trump2020🙏🇺🇸
@@u.s.paratroops4633 I'm sure that's how things look in that tiny and insane world of the imagination you live in, but not in any real world. Sorry that reality doesn't suit you, but that's your problem entirely.
Whenever I think of the genius of Lincoln, I think of this scene. It is all there.. His magnanimity, his pragmatism, his ability to use working-class tales to relate his points. Stevens was a righteous man, and we need righteous men, but without Lincoln it all comes to nothing. For everything Lincoln is known for, he is actually underrated as a politician. He was the master politician. Too bad that all politicians aren't forced to study him first.
Really well put, Shawn. I have written about Lincoln and his team on and off for years (as a management professor). Like politics, management is the science of the possible, but maybe more so, of the practicable (hence the idea of setting 'proximate or do-able / reachable objectives, even if they are 'stretch goals').
It also sows the seed of doubt in Lincoln’s legacy. That he died in the moment of his victory has made him a martyr, but he left his work unfinished. The south went back to oppressing blacks as soon as the union withdrew. Stevens was right to push for an aggressive reformation. What we got instead was a century of languishing which the south to this day has not recovered from. Stevens’ example inspired people like Churchill and Marshal to push 70 years later for a deep reformation of European society that produced a lasting piece and prosperity that the south has not enjoyed since.
thewildcard person one in which Germany, Russia and France had been at war with each other every 30 or so years for two centuries, and now haven’t been at war for 75 years.
Lloyd just because country’s arnt on paper blowing themselves up doesn’t mean there’s peace the Middle East cartels immigrant crisis all point very obviously Europe is not at peace
Stevens understood that everyone was poisoned by the hideous crime of slavery. If not by directly participating in and profiting from it, but by tolerating it for so many years.
Yeah he was a trailblazer. Humans of all colors have practiced slavery since the dawn of man. It was remarkable that slavery was defeated at all. However many radical Islamist still practice slavery, they'll soon be flushed out. Yes, Stevens was a trailblazer of human progression from small tribes and kingdoms, to countries with foundations in human right.
@Nicole M Can you please say out loud what you have typed to a real person in your life, perhaps a grownup or someone you trust. Hopefully they will teach you something about the issue and you will change your mind. If you can't change you mind what's the point in having one?
"Ah shit on the people. And what they want and what they're ready for. I don't give a god damn about the people and what they want. This is the face of someone who has fought long and hard for the *good* of the people, without caring much for any of them"
I love what Thaddeus Stevens said in this scene. He was an old man who died only three years later. When you look at a photo of him he seems pretty humorless. If this is a true representation of his views he was a true radical. America was so racist in 1865 only white radicals allied with conservatives like Lincoln could deliver the 13th amendment.
@@neilpemberton5523 *nods* That's why I am completely apathetic to this "it takes time" bullshit. It's amazing how many folks can shrug and claim that minorities need to just GET OVER IT and in the same breath, make us think that something as simple as STOP BEING RACIST AND TREAT OTHERS EQUALLY takes centuries of growth? And to those who claim this middle ground exists, if the south would've won, do you think they'd allow freedom to XYZ groups UNTIL they learned how good slavery was for the common man? Fuck that shit, they'd have spread it all over this country like a plague.
@@CronoXpono yes minorities do need to get over slavery because they never lived it and I'm speaking as a black man my damn self. we always want to make racism as an excuse to why the black community is not doing well. The black community has every major city in the country and still we want to make excuses and it's kind of makes me sick
@@attiepollard7847 you’ve missed my point. We can’t say that generation damaging and destroying policies are easily gotten over and at the same time, make a case that positive NOW change is something we have to take slow. That was the point I was making.
I could, and would, watch these two fine actors play out their respective roles for a whole two hours. Imagine a "Dinner with Andre" between Lincoln and Stephens, as played by DDL and Tommy Lee Jones.
In short, a master class of acting. I'll take that back. That wasn't acting; it was becoming the characters. That scene alone should be shown in all acting classes
As a political scientist, I have had this exact ideological debate countless times. The question of idealistic progress vs pragmatic progress. I myself go back and forth between pure conviction and pessimistic practicality.
Go Irish The war would likely have restarted or never ended under Stevenson’s suggestions A long project a protracted guerrilla war would’ve been likely
@@mpalfadel2008 But the sickness would've been squashed, instead of being left to fester and graft itself so masterfully ever since. It might have been difficult but now it may be impossible.
Though my heart, and the hearts of many Americans, was with Stevens, Lincoln was the wiser man, frankly he was a genius. Sadly, Lincoln could not forestall his end, and the resurgence of the Copperheads. Reconstruction was poisoned in its cradle, despite Grant's efforts. We still live with this tragedy.
He knew Stevens was part of the moral center of the Republican Party. I think Lincoln liked to tease his close colleagues without a sense of humor, like Edwin Stanton, with jokes and stories. But his deep respect for Stevens, who seems to also had no sense of humor, caused him to be all about business only each time they talked.
Lincoln proved many wrong as time went on. They were so sure he would be a tyrant like Cromwell, or a weak sympathizer like the Copperheads. He found a middle path, and although the real Lincoln was not the saint many make him out to be today, we can't deny he was a crafty politician with a keen mind and he accomplished much more than was expected of him. Not bad for a self-taught lawyer.
And telling when a man written in the annals of history for basically calling a fellow Representative a cold-blooded son of a bitch on the Congressional floor, has no rebuttal.
well, we do find ourselves neck deep in a swamp ... probably should've murdered, imprisoned and deported every single member of the slavery (DNC) party back when we had the chance. The dictacrats lost the battle, but won the war. We went from enslaving black people, to enslaving all people.
@@dialecticsjunkie7653 I mean those that would co-operate and free without resistance should be left alone. But those causing trouble and resisting would be criminals.
Stevens was "right" only because Lincoln died. Andrew Johnson botched the whole thing. Grant tried to carry out Lincoln's vision,but after his administration the whole thing collapsed.
@@trajan75 I mean the uncomfortable part was that Andrew Johnson's policy was closer to Linclon's than to Stevens'. If Johnson didn't become President, the 10 percent conciliatory policy wouldn't have had as much push back. Lincoln would have been considered "right" and Stevens "wrong". One wonders if we would've had a 14th or 15th Amendment in such a scenario. Though Lincoln did back the idea that some black men should have the vote right before he died. He was a few degrees away from Johnson in that sense. Who knows.
I worked with a woman about 15 years ago (she’s since died) who told me her grandmother as a child in Springfield, Ill. sat on Lincoln’s lap as the lawyer Lincoln visited her house to discuss a legal matter with her family. Three degrees of separation. I was amazed.
Thaddeus Stevens need to get more credit similar to lincoln! Thanks for this film.. It shows that alot of politician who fought for freedom of the people by the people.... RIP to all of them who sacrificed.
I love it the first Radical Republican and by far the best Thaddeus Stevens was beyond his time I agree all those in for slavery relinquish their property wealth and rights over for not just the fact they sided with the South but the fact they sided with slavery and btw the same goes for the northern states such as Maryland and so on
You do know that Maryland actually freed its slaves before the 13th Amendment in 1864? They had a constitutional convention to re-draft Maryland's laws, and the abolition of slavery was part of that. So actually we were ahead of the curve.
Letting the government do that would’ve inevitably caused worse problems in the long run. Also would set a bad precedent in the overreaching arch of the federal government. All under the guise of “the greater good.” Funny thing about self appointed morally righteous people. They tend to bring contempt and breed equally vigorous opposing self righteous individuals. At which point it just starts all over again. As Lincoln put it what does it matter if you know true north if you bluntly go about it in that it leads you down a ditch?
@James clark Uh guys? See what you did? Poor little racist james is upset and butt-hurt now, all because you just had to start stating FACTS about the Civil War and maligning his moronic racist version of history, a history that his Paw taught little james after he decided to quit school after the 5th grade! Don't you understand how traumatic your truly factual thoughts are to a warped racist mind? Try to be more "sensitive" next time, huh?
I love Lewis’s Lincoln, the heigher pitched voice, to the backwater pronunciation like de-bate, and skeer. Man put hours in to get an accurate portrayal.
I don't claim to be an expert in Lincoln - read a few books. But the country accent (which was widely mocked by his political opponents), the use of folksy stories, and the high-pitched voice were noted by historians. Doesn't fit with the stereotype of such a large man, or making him seem heroic in various movies. But Lewis truly brought Lincoln to life.
@@HanHonHon I'm guessing he wouldn't have won an academy award with that accent 🙂. I've known people from southern Indiana, and they sound a lot like this. Lincoln was born in Kentucky but they moved to Indiana at some point. Seems plausible to think he'd have developed this accent. Though that assumes the accent has remained about the same.
Honestly, it's how Reconstruction should have gone. It was the Union's soft treatment of the Confederacy that allowed things like the KKK, sharecropping, and Jim Crow to take root in the postwar Era.
@@evanthompson7494It was Lincoln’s death, Andrew Johnson’s ascension, and Democrats gaining ground in Congress that did it in. Mainly Lincoln’s assassination threw it all out the window.
Even then, the traitors were glorified and the righteous were vilified. Lincoln was highly controversial and polarizing even then. "You know what the people are..."
@@briansass4865 Go to Free Republic.com. It's a conservative web site. I'm there all the time getting into it with the "Lost Causers''. I'll you, the only real thing that stopped with The Civil War is the shooting. There are lots of Southerners who are still fighting it.
The ultimate lesson of this history, taught so well by this movie, is that we forge ahead to progressive self-betterment when this idealist-pragmatist team holds together, and whenever it falls apart, backward steps result.
Until this conversation, I didn't remember much about Thaddeus Stevens. He is the type of leader, similar to George Patton, who lead from inside out. These dudes don't suck up to anybody.
As a comment below mentioned. Idealism is a compass, and pragmatism is a map. To get to where you want, you often cannot follow a straight path, lest you walk off a cliff or suffer the torment of geography. However, the straightest path is always the fastest. You must strike the appropriate balance between speed and convenience, for one overtakes the other if overallocated. Should you ever get lost in the mire of the map, the compass can always lead you to where you were supposed to go. Should you have stumbled unto troubles of the terrain to your destination, the map shall lead the way out. Both are essential to each other's weaknesses. Many paths along many struggles are analogous to the relationship between the compass and the map.
Where would the Bible fit in the discussion as believers say it acts as the light to their feet and path? Where does it perform better than the compass and map and where does to falter?
A masterclass in every way, from both actors in this scene, two titans of the craft. Jones has honed the curmudgeon role into art form, and he’s perfect in every way for it-portraying Stevens as a passionate fighter for Negro rights who is utterly disgusted by slavery and its Southern proponents, the embodiment of Reconstruction-as well as a man who knows the barriers set against him and is begrudgingly acknowledging that passion and being right and being HUMAN isn’t enough. Jones nails it all, in tone and word and body language. It would be remarkable, except that Jones has been nailing these roles for decades now, so it’s just Jones being Jones😁 And Day Lewis? There is no recorded record of Lincoln’s voice, no film or tape- only history itself. I believe Day Lewis is the greatest actor of his time because I truly think he brought Lincoln to literal life in this, Lincoln in all his simplicity and common sense, his decency and passion-as well as his shrewdness and political acumen. Abraham Lincoln’s quest to end slavery with that Amendment, and Daniel Day Lewis’s portrayal, nay embodiment, of Lincoln here are two examples of watching first class minds and talent at work. It’s like watching the sun come out at night in this movie
Negro rights or everybody rights? If there is no equallity under the law then the law is a joke and that pausity will be exploited to instigate an implosion. Some values are universal truths regardless if you connect to the bible, the Tanakh, Catechism, the Screwtape letters the constitution, Sikh , Tamil Separatist whatever and whatever else. The context of the movie is Civil War in USA with slavery as the primary subject. The objective is Equality Under The Law. Hence the Emancipation Proclamation making slavery moot. Lutheran, Protestant, AME land owning or not male and female should experience equality under the law. Grace and mercy are everybody rights just as much. Pursue justice people.
You forgot the paragraph before: "Yet, if God wills that (the Civil War) continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether""
This is why I love Thaddeus Stevens. He was a cutthroat politician who didn’t even pretend to reach the other side when it came to the rights of slaves. He knew very well that cooperating with the other side would mean the rights of slaves would be in jeopardy. Being a ruthless partisan who didn’t pretend to be bipartisan helped pass the 13th Amendment. He didn’t believe in this “unity” bullshit because he knew the other side was a threat to the goal of a multiracial democracy. We need more politicians like Thaddeus Stevens today who recognize that “unity” and “bipartisanship” is utter bullshit and that you need to be totally partisan if you want to protect the rights of marginalized groups.
Back then, Grant and Lincoln wanted to end the war as soon as possible and end the bloodshed, because the people and Congress were not gonna let the war drag on endlessly to end slavery. However, if Grant and Lincoln ever had flaws, it was their misguided belief in the goodness of all human beings. The Confederates (and former Confederates) were hateful, racist, vile traitors, often times crossing over into the inhuman actions of violence and betrayal. Lincoln and Grant (and the rest of the Republicans), did what was necessary and right to save the Union. But as much as a disgusting and evil person as Andrew Johnson was, I do wish he had gotten his way on the fate of former Confederate leaders. They all should've been tried as traitors and hung at the gallows. The damage those traitors did to Civil Rights and Racial Justice is incalculable. The blood of millions lays on their hands. The history of this nation is forever stained because they were racist, hateful, traitorous cowards. Lincoln and Grant treated them with mercy. As fellow countrymen. And in return? The Confederates did everything they could to forever damage our great nation. Grant and Lincoln were wrong. The Confederates were not good, decent people at heart. They were a malignant cancer, dedicated to the USA's destruction; allowed to fester and grow at our core, setting Civil Rights back 100 years and throwing the ideals of the Founding Father's into jeopardy. It's disgusting! It makes me angry! All because of what? They couldn't give up a profit? Because they couldn't give up their aristocracy, forged as a cheap mockery of what existed in Europe? Because they didn't want to face the truth that all human beings are equal? Because they couldn't admit that they had betrayed the nation and the ideals of the Enlightenment? Horrifying and cowardly.
Thaddeus Stevens was proven right as well as reconstruction was strangled in the crib as the confederate remnant lived on and still has political power today in the South holding the rest of us decent folks politically hostage.
Incorrect, being a ruthless partisan would have sunk it. Look at his speech near the end. He masked his convictions and took the bipartisan approach in order to not alienate his more racist white colleagues.
Thaddeus’ ideals are the end goal we all aspire to, but Lincoln’s pragmatism here is why he’s the GOAT president. Change for the better must be a gradual process because generally speaking, humans hate change. In many cases, this is still evident today.
Love this. Today they'd be hurling insults and trading sound bytes. No, here are two intelligent, well-grounded men having a firm and frank, but not hostile conversation over what happens next.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, President Lincoln. (12 Feb 1809). May your unwavering loyalty to the Union remain enshrined in the conscience of Americans and citizens of the free world. Amen.
So sad that today we still deal with the same ignorance and racism. And the president doesn't temper it as Lincoln did. He exacerbates it. And hopefully we too will grow and learn from this era of division and hate.
I love this movie, the whole feels of it. I dare say this scene can be compared to the restaurant scene in Heat - the clashing of two charismatic characters.
Shoulda taken all the land from those southern general's like Robert E Lee, people like Jefferson Davis, whole lot of them. Take the land from the traitors and give it to the people.
@@andrewpytko4773 Traitors don't get mercy. They caused this war and betrayed their country and in Lee and others case their oath to the country as a whole when they enlisted and for that the war should have ended yes.... with them all at the end of a noose, the Justice that they deserved.
Idealists (including me) are often right...but the path to reach Utopia is always defeated by the pragmatic reality of having to deal with the REALITY of the people. And in the end, Stevens got his way. The North militarily occupied the south for over a decade trying to implement the changes necessary to ensure equal rights for all (as it was viewed at the time). In 1877, the Republican Party agreed to end the occupation and reconstruction efforts in exchange for the disputed Presidential election of 1876 being resolved in the GOP's favor. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_of_1877 In this case 'the people' that Stevens so detested included members of his own party who placed personal and party power over the cause of good governance.
“As time passes, people, even of the South, will begin to wonder how it was possible that their ancestors ever fought for or justified institutions which acknowledged the right of property in man.” - Ulysses S. Grant Unfortunately, this... symptom of human nature has aided the Lost Cause narrative and kept our nation from healing. I have no idea how to get people to accept the evil of the past, let it go and move on into the future.
@@dclark142002 It's hard to say Stevens "got his way" when the most critical part of his plan was never implemented - wide-scale land reform and property seizure. In the end, that's what caused the failure of reconstruction; the pre-civil war structure of power and wealth was essentially untouched. After the immediate post-war years, wealthy land owners (ex-Confederates) eroded reconstruction efforts and politically/economically resisted the loosening military occupation until, as you point out, 1877, when they were able to essentially implement pre-war restrictions unimpeded. In the end, too much power was given back too quickly to the South, and the pre-war power structures were left far too intact. That's why reconstruction ended up being watered down, and why the end of reconstruction lead essentially immediately into the era of Jim Crow. The South in general, and certainly African Americans, would have been better off if Stevens had actually got his way.
@@kesh862 You want to see what happen when you introduce "wide-scale land reform and property seizure" ? Look at 1920s/30s Russia, 1950s China, 1970s Cambodia, 2000s Zimbabwe. That never ever worked and that always bring more death and violence than anything else.
"Think, boy! What kind of an adventure would you have had if I brought you here with a turn of a page?" -The Pagemaster (That last bit reminded me of this childhood movie)
Definitely one of my favorite scenes from this movie. Shows the genius of Lincoln. The compass analogy is excellent. Sure, you can go in the right direction, but you have to know how to negotiate the hills and chasms.
You know, hearing Stevens proposals for the former slaves in the South makes me really sad, since had we done that then, our nation now would far more equal. But that's often the trap inherent in pushing for idealistic proposals- they sound too good to be true, because they often are. As much as I wish the environment in 1865 would've allowed for Steven's proposals to pass, they wouldn't, and could've jeopardized the progress that we did make. Lincoln was in the right in this.
@TMPanos96 I never said his proposal wouldn't have worked. Had it gotten passed it would been great, and would've gone a long way towards reducing racial inequality. The catch is if it got passed, which I am skeptical of. It was difficult for the republicans to pass just the 13th amendment, so had Stevens ignored Lincoln and insisted on pushing for his "radical" ideas, it would've hurt support in the house, and could've stopped the 13th amendment from passing. Stevens was a great man, and did a lot for slaves. There's also little denying that he was far less racist than Lincoln, who despite accomplishing great things, was still a bigot due to the time period. But here he's making perfect the enemy of the good.
Jones was good. But Daniel Day Lewis was in a different league all to himself. Very few actors have ever been able to reach the pure embodiment of a role as he does here. It is literally flawless and quite possibly the greatest performance in film history.
I keep coming back to this scene and I keep thinking that Lincoln and Stevens kind of liked each other, at least a little. They certainly respected one another. Lincoln was generally polite and quiet, but Stevens certainly didn't have a problem calling fools out.
Such a good scene. Stevens was morally 100% in the right, the South had forfeited all right to conditions or mercy by rising up in armed rebellion, World history was on his side as rebels were dealt with without mercy since the book of Genesis. BUT Lincoln also knew that history had shown such action would never repair the nation in a time when Empires were rising all around and the next conflict was inevitable approaching. Treating the South like the English treated the Irish would make unity impossible and likely cause an endless occupation. Thank goodness even a fraction of Lincoln's plan went into action, especially with the horros the next century would unleash.
By the same token, the Union being *too* lenient on the South during the Johnson years and eventually ending Reconstruction well before its time after Hayes's election created a HOST of problems of its own -- a nation permanently divided (with one side harboring a permanent resentment against the other) and the rebels and their sons and grandsons being allowed to mythologize and idolize their act of treason at will - with the evils that gave birth to that treason being allowed to once again manifest and take hold as they did before. Too heavy a hand might have only spurred more rebellion, true, but the too SOFT hand that was applied in reality did nothing to solve matters either - on the contrary, not sufficiently punishing the South for their treason and essentially allowing them to write their own version of the story meant that, essentially, America never treated the wound that caused the Civil War in the first place; instead it was allowed to endure, to grow infected and to rot all over again. Stevens was right that the South NEEDED to be De-Nazified, in some ways; that the whole society was rotten, from the top down, with the evil of slavery and racial segregation and that, thus, some manner of forced reeducation would be necessary.
This is really good because it demonstrates Lincoln’s magnanimity and political wisdom against idealism and extremism. That’s what makes a man truly great. The selflessness of doing what’s best for the country you serve.
Joromo84 hilariously, it still happens now. Are we on some kind of goddamn honor system now? The rich continue to push for more and more and more of what little is left and still, STILL, were trying to reason with the unreasonable. I’m sorry but I’d reason that Stevens would rather risk the entire goddamn leg than lose it an inch at a time.
@@bryanjahava2610 almost everyone was a racist during this time. Let us not judge them by the lenses of the present. Lincoln was an idealist at heart if you read his speeches and letters, but his mind was very pragmatic if you study his politics.
@Chris Smith I would say that isn't true. Implying that all progress ended after the term of President Grant is obviously false. I would say it's stopped and started multiple times. The Civil Rights era was a time of significant progress.'
It's not the same thing but just evolved. The south for example still was destroyed until after ww2 when FDR's and Eisenhower's policies updated our infrastructure but still today it has tons of poor ass people. And its not just the south as 1/3 of americans live pay check to paycheck and cant afford good health insurance. And that's because more modern politicians have become empowered through self gain and all the big money interest groups buying them off. People like trump and Hillary are the enemies of the working class as are other neoliberals and far right wingers
I think it useful to consider the ACW as a continuation of the various English revolutions which sought to alter the peoples relationship with government. Many issues remain unresolved...and so the process will continue.
Their wealth was seized. Thankfully republicans flooded the southern urban areas and built industry. Took till 1994 for the kkk party the democrats to lose their hold of the south. Unfortunately they seized power on the coasts. The fight continues
@@johnholtz1205 The KKK votes Republican these days. They went over to the GOP when LBJ and the Democrats pushed Civil Rights in the 1960s and Nixon recruited the Dixiecrats and Klanners into Republican ranks. You haven't been paying attention.
@@alexthelizardking He left her the house, which was quite daring. She may not have been the reason he was a Radical Republican, but his regard for her certainly contributed to his belief in true equality between the races.
Unfortunately, Stevens was exactly 100 years ahead of his time. It's ridiculous it took until 1964-65 with the Civil and Voting Rights Acts to finally give blacks what they should have had centuries ago
The estimated 750,000 dead (and rising with newer evidence) was a terrible toll for both nations of 31 million people. That's over 2% of the total population. As Lincoln realized right before he died, the entire country, North and South was being punished by the terrible bloodshed and destruction. Lincoln realized that civil wars leave deep, deep scars and they usually cause irreparable damage which is why he wanted fellowship and temperance for the South to make transition easier to bear instead of creating rifts and hatred. Unfortunately with him gone, vengeance became the mainstay of Reconstruction which only sowed the seeds of another century of hatred.
"Oh shit on the people! And what they want, and what they're ready for. I don't give a god damn about the people and what they want. This is the face of someone who has fought long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of them! And I look a lot worse without my wig!"
"Fought long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of them" What a line.
There is the lesson: use idealism as a compass, and pragmatism as the map.
That may work for you but people since havent been so fortunate.
Not twisting the knife is why white cops still black men with impunity today.
nicely put
And where did a spineless plan of reconstruction get us? The morass of the Antebellum South is exactly where it got us. The deliberate, unchecked financial and civil oppression of the newly-free by the Southerns when they should have been forced at gunpoint and by gavel to conform to Northern expectations.
And it spawned alternative cultural continuation of the Confederacy through policies of racial segregation and racial oppression via the "separate but equal" doctrine (and later through increasingly-abstract dogwhistles such as state's rights, forced busing, opposition to the welfare state, etc.) that to this day is determined to mire the Union in political paralysis and sovereign debt to nullify any exercise of its power.
@Marik Ishtar I agree with you on the former statements about why reconstruction was a problem, but I disagree with the latter... yes Johnson was an inept leader & Grant, while not a politician, was easily swayed by individuals within his cabinet...I have to take in the human factor, which is so very hard in politics because we often see our allies/opponents as sub-human, in one way or another.
We must also consider the source.
The important thing about history is that we learn from it...And learn from it we have in both good and terrible ways... ways in which we are still fighting today...And ways in which everyone wants their own interpretations of the past to be the contemporary view of The United States of America.
It's very easy for a contemporary historian to look back at the past and say what was good, what was bad, what was ok, and what was not ok, etc.
Unfortunately hindsight has always been 20/20 and the best decisions that could have been made were made and the worst decisions that could have been made were made… simply put, We have always been on the same side… specifically we all want what is best for the United States of America, and the individuals who live in her, because this is our country… and while we may differ on many issues our goals remain the same and that has always been to try and make this the best country we could make...
Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail… And sometimes we fall in between the two...
Whichever side we fall upon says more about our person then really what it is about the country...
"I don't give a goddamn about the people or what they want. This is the face of someone who has fought long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of them." I've always loved that line.
"And I look a lot worse without my wig."
are there any current politicians, any country, that fit that description?
@@benjsmithproductions I think there’s no shortage of politicians who say they’re doing what’s best for the people, even if those people are too dumb to know what’s best for themselves. Stevens just happened to be right.
I in fact live by this 😂
You missed "Oh shit on the people" 😂
“I don’t give a goddamn about the people or what this want. This is the face of someone who has fought long and hard for the good of the people, without caring much for any of them. The people elected me... to represent them.”
What I love about this is the self-knowledge in it. The man knows what he’s been hired to do.
Reality is that most voters prefer politician who can put up at least the appearance that they care about them, and that the politicians will vote the way their constituencies want. I suspect Stevens just happened to represent the more "liberal" part of the country back then.
I don't think the people hired him to start a second civil war right after they were wrapping up the first one. His plan would of gotten a ton of freed slave's killed because he wanted revenge.
@@phucle2076 Comparing Stevens to a modern day American politician is apples and oranges. The mindset between the two is the same, the opinions are different.
Lincoln's view was pursued in Grant's administration. There were no mass appropriations, but the rights of the newly freed Blacks were protected by those federal controllers, Sherman Sheridan, etc. Then after Grant was out the protection was lifted and the former slaves began to thave their newly acquired rights taken away. By the 1900s they were mostly gone and the social damage caused thereby has plagued the nation ever since.
Thank Andrew Johnson.....besides Obama, one of the worst Pres' !!
I believe that Lincoln's assassination might have been the single greatest political disaster in American history. It meant that Reconstruction was to be handled by Andrew Johnson, a racist who sympathized with the plantation owners and allowed, even encouraged, the southern states to enact discriminatory laws and practice voter intimidation. In short, he enabled the creation of what became Jim Crow, and even encouraged it. Lincoln would have handled Reconstruction beautifully, but Johnson opened up a floodgate of regression that not even Grant's administration could stem. Had Lincoln survived, there might not have even been Jim Crow; who knows.
@@u.s.paratroops4633 You misspelled the name Trump there, Paul.
@@LordZontar How do ya figure??? Pres Trump is going to go down in history as the best Pres since Lincoln !! He's fighting for our nation over Globalists aka Geo Soros, along w/ HRC, and Obama who want a NWO. Do some research !!
Besides who are you going to vote for ??
Biden suffered two brain aneurysms, one on the right side and one on the left. Each required surgery with high risk of long-term impact on brain functionality, then he suffered a pulmonary embolism, a major complication. all in 88'
Another operation to repair a second aneurysm, which had caused no symptoms but was at risk of bursting, was performed in May 1988. The hospitalization and recovery kept Biden from his duties in the Senate for seven months.
In 2013, Biden said, "they take a saw and they cut your head off" and "they literally had to take the top of my head off." ref: wikipedia
🇺🇸🙏Trump2020🙏🇺🇸
@@u.s.paratroops4633 I'm sure that's how things look in that tiny and insane world of the imagination you live in, but not in any real world. Sorry that reality doesn't suit you, but that's your problem entirely.
Whenever I think of the genius of Lincoln, I think of this scene. It is all there.. His magnanimity, his pragmatism, his ability to use working-class tales to relate his points. Stevens was a righteous man, and we need righteous men, but without Lincoln it all comes to nothing. For everything Lincoln is known for, he is actually underrated as a politician. He was the master politician. Too bad that all politicians aren't forced to study him first.
Really well put, Shawn. I have written about Lincoln and his team on and off for years (as a management professor). Like politics, management is the science of the possible, but maybe more so, of the practicable (hence the idea of setting 'proximate or do-able / reachable objectives, even if they are 'stretch goals').
It also sows the seed of doubt in Lincoln’s legacy. That he died in the moment of his victory has made him a martyr, but he left his work unfinished. The south went back to oppressing blacks as soon as the union withdrew. Stevens was right to push for an aggressive reformation. What we got instead was a century of languishing which the south to this day has not recovered from.
Stevens’ example inspired people like Churchill and Marshal to push 70 years later for a deep reformation of European society that produced a lasting piece and prosperity that the south has not enjoyed since.
Lloyd lasting peace in Europe 😂😂😂😂😂 what world do you live in
thewildcard person one in which Germany, Russia and France had been at war with each other every 30 or so years for two centuries, and now haven’t been at war for 75 years.
Lloyd just because country’s arnt on paper blowing themselves up doesn’t mean there’s peace the Middle East cartels immigrant crisis all point very obviously Europe is not at peace
The conversation of a optimistic pragmatist and a pure idealist.
Such a great scene, such good acting and such good writing.
Stevens understood that everyone was poisoned by the hideous crime of slavery. If not by directly participating in and profiting from it, but by tolerating it for so many years.
Yeah he was a trailblazer. Humans of all colors have practiced slavery since the dawn of man. It was remarkable that slavery was defeated at all. However many radical Islamist still practice slavery, they'll soon be flushed out. Yes, Stevens was a trailblazer of human progression from small tribes and kingdoms, to countries with foundations in human right.
@Nicole M What failure are you referring to?
@Nicole M Can you please say out loud what you have typed to a real person in your life, perhaps a grownup or someone you trust. Hopefully they will teach you something about the issue and you will change your mind. If you can't change you mind what's the point in having one?
@Nicole M You think you are superior?
@Nicole M Maybe, if you were nicer.
"Ah shit on the people. And what they want and what they're ready for. I don't give a god damn about the people and what they want. This is the face of someone who has fought long and hard for the *good* of the people, without caring much for any of them"
"And I look a lot worse without my wig."
I love what Thaddeus Stevens said in this scene. He was an old man who died only three years later. When you look at a photo of him he seems pretty humorless. If this is a true representation of his views he was a true radical. America was so racist in 1865 only white radicals allied with conservatives like Lincoln could deliver the 13th amendment.
@@neilpemberton5523 *nods* That's why I am completely apathetic to this "it takes time" bullshit. It's amazing how many folks can shrug and claim that minorities need to just GET OVER IT and in the same breath, make us think that something as simple as STOP BEING RACIST AND TREAT OTHERS EQUALLY takes centuries of growth? And to those who claim this middle ground exists, if the south would've won, do you think they'd allow freedom to XYZ groups UNTIL they learned how good slavery was for the common man? Fuck that shit, they'd have spread it all over this country like a plague.
@@CronoXpono yes minorities do need to get over slavery because they never lived it and I'm speaking as a black man my damn self. we always want to make racism as an excuse to why the black community is not doing well. The black community has every major city in the country and still we want to make excuses and it's kind of makes me sick
@@attiepollard7847 you’ve missed my point. We can’t say that generation damaging and destroying policies are easily gotten over and at the same time, make a case that positive NOW change is something we have to take slow. That was the point I was making.
I could, and would, watch these two fine actors play out their respective roles for a whole two hours. Imagine a "Dinner with Andre" between Lincoln and Stephens, as played by DDL and Tommy Lee Jones.
In short, a master class of acting. I'll take that back. That wasn't acting; it was becoming the characters. That scene alone should be shown in all acting classes
Or the movie done as a series of conversations between them.
I'd love to. That movie sucked.
As a political scientist, I have had this exact ideological debate countless times. The question of idealistic progress vs pragmatic progress. I myself go back and forth between pure conviction and pessimistic practicality.
Kolton Whitmire man this is 💯
It gaves Lincoln and Stevens closer to us. Our ancestors were not different from us.
A debate between Lincoln and Bismarck would have been incredible.
Slow but steady wins the race. Count on it.
@Kolton Whitmire
So in other words you're a sane rational person.
God I love this scene. Both sides of the argument.
CognizantCheddar two men who value moral righteousness. They share so much, yet see things so differently.
I fear Stephens was right. The Union should have went all the way South. They never learned a fucking thing.
Go Irish
The war would likely have restarted or never ended under Stevenson’s suggestions
A long project a protracted guerrilla war would’ve been likely
@@mpalfadel2008 But the sickness would've been squashed, instead of being left to fester and graft itself so masterfully ever since.
It might have been difficult but now it may be impossible.
@@alalalala57 Would it though or would it merely have sowed the seeds of a second rebellion.
Though my heart, and the hearts of many Americans,
was with Stevens, Lincoln was the wiser man, frankly
he was a genius. Sadly, Lincoln could not forestall his end,
and the resurgence of the Copperheads. Reconstruction
was poisoned in its cradle, despite Grant's efforts.
We still live with this tragedy.
Well said.
Country would have been better off executing/exiling the entirety of the planter class. Look where we at now.
This. 100%
Bullshit! Thad Stevens IQ would put Lincoln's IQ in the sleeper move
@@jerko431 Nope... thinking and leading from a purely idealistic perspective is never the mark of superior intelligence.
“Oh how you have longed to say that to me.”
You get the sense, hearing Stevens say that, that he knows Lincoln is right even if he can’t admit it.
Lincoln is perhaps the only one he talks to as his own intellectual equal, he dances with everyone else
@@DariusDareDevil Indeed, including his fellow radicals.
He knew Stevens was part of the moral center of the Republican Party. I think Lincoln liked to tease his close colleagues without a sense of humor, like Edwin Stanton, with jokes and stories. But his deep respect for Stevens, who seems to also had no sense of humor, caused him to be all about business only each time they talked.
Lincoln proved many wrong as time went on. They were so sure he would be a tyrant like Cromwell, or a weak sympathizer like the Copperheads. He found a middle path, and although the real Lincoln was not the saint many make him out to be today, we can't deny he was a crafty politician with a keen mind and he accomplished much more than was expected of him. Not bad for a self-taught lawyer.
lincoln wasnt right. the north went easy on the south during reconstruction and now racism is still a problem almost 200 years later.
Great writing and even better acting. Daniel Day Lewis was just incredible in this role.
Holy shit that "true north" line was good
And telling when a man written in the annals of history for basically calling a fellow Representative a cold-blooded son of a bitch on the Congressional floor, has no rebuttal.
well, we do find ourselves neck deep in a swamp ... probably should've murdered, imprisoned and deported every single member of the slavery (DNC) party back when we had the chance. The dictacrats lost the battle, but won the war. We went from enslaving black people, to enslaving all people.
Pragmatism > Idealism
Thaddeus Stevens was right. You give the slaveholders an inch, they'll take a yard, as the roll-back post Reconstruction showed all too clearly.
What would you take the constitutional rights of the Southerners away?
@@aleksandersokal5279 No, just the slaveowners'
@@dialecticsjunkie7653 I mean those that would co-operate and free without resistance should be left alone. But those causing trouble and resisting would be criminals.
Stevens was "right" only because Lincoln died. Andrew Johnson botched the whole thing. Grant tried to carry out Lincoln's vision,but after his administration the whole thing collapsed.
@@trajan75 I mean the uncomfortable part was that Andrew Johnson's policy was closer to Linclon's than to Stevens'. If Johnson didn't become President, the 10 percent conciliatory policy wouldn't have had as much push back. Lincoln would have been considered "right" and Stevens "wrong". One wonders if we would've had a 14th or 15th Amendment in such a scenario. Though Lincoln did back the idea that some black men should have the vote right before he died. He was a few degrees away from Johnson in that sense. Who knows.
A marvelous scene executed by actors who are masters of their craft.
If I could ever be given one wish it would be to be able to meet Abraham Lincoln. I have never nor will I ever have more respect for anyone than him.
Don’t meet your heros
I worked with a woman about 15 years ago (she’s since died) who told me her grandmother as a child in Springfield, Ill. sat on Lincoln’s lap as the lawyer Lincoln visited her house to discuss a legal matter with her family. Three degrees of separation. I was amazed.
@@nilocdg9752 Why not? It sure works well in the music business!
Thaddeus Stevens need to get more credit similar to lincoln! Thanks for this film.. It shows that alot of politician who fought for freedom of the people by the people.... RIP to all of them who sacrificed.
I could watch these guys do dramatic readings of an old phone book all day and love every minute.
I love it the first Radical Republican and by far the best Thaddeus Stevens was beyond his time I agree all those in for slavery relinquish their property wealth and rights over for not just the fact they sided with the South but the fact they sided with slavery and btw the same goes for the northern states such as Maryland and so on
You do know that Maryland actually freed its slaves before the 13th Amendment in 1864? They had a constitutional convention to re-draft Maryland's laws, and the abolition of slavery was part of that. So actually we were ahead of the curve.
James Clark you forget we broke off from Virginia 1863 you know when West Virginia became its own state and told the confederacy to kick rocks
Who won the war oh the north did
Letting the government do that would’ve inevitably caused worse problems in the long run. Also would set a bad precedent in the overreaching arch of the federal government.
All under the guise of “the greater good.” Funny thing about self appointed morally righteous people. They tend to bring contempt and breed equally vigorous opposing self righteous individuals. At which point it just starts all over again. As Lincoln put it what does it matter if you know true north if you bluntly go about it in that it leads you down a ditch?
@James clark Uh guys? See what you did? Poor little racist james is upset and butt-hurt now, all because you just had to start stating FACTS about the Civil War and maligning his moronic racist version of history, a history that his Paw taught little james after he decided to quit school after the 5th grade! Don't you understand how traumatic your truly factual thoughts are to a warped racist mind? Try to be more "sensitive" next time, huh?
I love Lewis’s Lincoln, the heigher pitched voice, to the backwater pronunciation like de-bate, and skeer. Man put hours in to get an accurate portrayal.
I don't claim to be an expert in Lincoln - read a few books. But the country accent (which was widely mocked by his political opponents), the use of folksy stories, and the high-pitched voice were noted by historians. Doesn't fit with the stereotype of such a large man, or making him seem heroic in various movies. But Lewis truly brought Lincoln to life.
@@scooter5940 I don't think he sounded southern enough, I imagine he would sound like foghorn leghorn
@@HanHonHon I'm guessing he wouldn't have won an academy award with that accent 🙂. I've known people from southern Indiana, and they sound a lot like this. Lincoln was born in Kentucky but they moved to Indiana at some point. Seems plausible to think he'd have developed this accent. Though that assumes the accent has remained about the same.
@@timgulstine2767 Yeah that's true but Lincoln was described as having a deep country accent and also consider it was 1864
0:39 Could you imagine if that was how Reconstruction actually happened? I wonder how race relations in the US would look today.
Honestly, it's how Reconstruction should have gone. It was the Union's soft treatment of the Confederacy that allowed things like the KKK, sharecropping, and Jim Crow to take root in the postwar Era.
@@evanthompson7494It was Lincoln’s death, Andrew Johnson’s ascension, and Democrats gaining ground in Congress that did it in. Mainly Lincoln’s assassination threw it all out the window.
How did America go from this great man to venerating the very traitors who sought to destroy a free society?
Collective incompetence.
You need to read works on "The Lost Cause" to understand why.
David Blight's book "Race and Reunion" is a good starting point.
Cause they didn't do the land redistribution. Those rich families had spoiled kids going to wealthy schools while telling everyone else to work hard
Even then, the traitors were glorified and the righteous were vilified.
Lincoln was highly controversial and polarizing even then.
"You know what the people are..."
@@briansass4865 Go to Free Republic.com. It's a conservative web site. I'm there all the time getting into it with the "Lost Causers''. I'll you, the only real thing that stopped with The Civil War is the shooting. There are lots of Southerners who are still fighting it.
That’s a great scene. Solid writing. Solid acting. Tommy Lee should have an academy award for this role.
This is such a fantastic conversation. This movie is so well written.
The acting in this scene is simply marvelous, but just as marvelous is the writing! What great dialogue!
with Spielberg holding back so to speak - just letting these fine actors do their work. There is also no score whatsoever. Perfect choices all round.
Mr Lincoln, the Compass analogy is a DAMN good point
The ultimate lesson of this history, taught so well by this movie, is that we forge ahead to progressive self-betterment when this idealist-pragmatist team holds together, and whenever it falls apart, backward steps result.
Lincoln is perhaps the only one he talks to as his own intellectual equal, he makes everyone else dance.
Thats an interesting observation
Two acting titans... Tommy Lee Jones is a Harvard-educated thespian going straight up with the best character actor ever. And both deserved Oscars.
This is a masterclass of acting. Two powerhouses face to face.
Just actors. Nothing more.
@@zippyzipster46 silly simpleton
Daniel Day got schooled here
Until this conversation, I didn't remember much about Thaddeus Stevens. He is the type of leader, similar to George Patton, who lead from inside out. These dudes don't suck up to anybody.
Patton wanted to keep fighting because he's useless in peacetime.
Lincoln opens his eyes with his smarts and the compass line one great line of many .
God bless you, Mr. Stevens.
I love the way Tommy Lee Jones says the "transform the heritage of traitors" line.
This movie brings out the civil war nut in me.
As a comment below mentioned. Idealism is a compass, and pragmatism is a map. To get to where you want, you often cannot follow a straight path, lest you walk off a cliff or suffer the torment of geography. However, the straightest path is always the fastest. You must strike the appropriate balance between speed and convenience, for one overtakes the other if overallocated.
Should you ever get lost in the mire of the map, the compass can always lead you to where you were supposed to go. Should you have stumbled unto troubles of the terrain to your destination, the map shall lead the way out. Both are essential to each other's weaknesses.
Many paths along many struggles are analogous to the relationship between the compass and the map.
I dont know how to show appreciation for such a great thought written so skill-fully
Where would the Bible fit in the discussion as believers say it acts as the light to their feet and path? Where does it perform better than the compass and map and where does to falter?
Tommy lee sounds like a roman senator
A masterclass in every way, from both actors in this scene, two titans of the craft. Jones has honed the curmudgeon role into art form, and he’s perfect in every way for it-portraying Stevens as a passionate fighter for Negro rights who is utterly disgusted by slavery and its Southern proponents, the embodiment of Reconstruction-as well as a man who knows the barriers set against him and is begrudgingly acknowledging that passion and being right and being HUMAN isn’t enough. Jones nails it all, in tone and word and body language. It would be remarkable, except that Jones has been nailing these roles for decades now, so it’s just Jones being Jones😁
And Day Lewis? There is no recorded record of Lincoln’s voice, no film or tape- only history itself. I believe Day Lewis is the greatest actor of his time because I truly think he brought Lincoln to literal life in this, Lincoln in all his simplicity and common sense, his decency and passion-as well as his shrewdness and political acumen.
Abraham Lincoln’s quest to end slavery with that Amendment, and Daniel Day Lewis’s portrayal, nay embodiment, of Lincoln here are two examples of watching first class minds and talent at work. It’s like watching the sun come out at night in this movie
In one way Jones was badly miscast. Stevens was from the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont. Jones's accent is completely wrong.
Negro rights or everybody rights? If there is no equallity under the law then the law is a joke and that pausity will be exploited to instigate an implosion. Some values are universal truths regardless if you connect to the bible, the Tanakh, Catechism, the Screwtape letters the constitution, Sikh , Tamil Separatist whatever and whatever else. The context of the movie is Civil War in USA with slavery as the primary subject. The objective is Equality Under The Law. Hence the Emancipation Proclamation making slavery moot. Lutheran, Protestant, AME land owning or not male and female should experience equality under the law. Grace and mercy are everybody rights just as much. Pursue justice people.
Two outstanding actors at the top of their game
Thaddeus Stevens' vision for Reconstruction sounds pretty fucking dope these days, doesn't lmfao
truly ahead of his time
The floor in the D-bate... loved it!
“With malice toward none”, this is why Lincoln was beloved.
The logic of white supremacy
You forgot the paragraph before:
"Yet, if God wills that (the Civil War) continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether""
@@Mourtzouphlos240 didn’t forget it just didn’t add it
This is why I love Thaddeus Stevens. He was a cutthroat politician who didn’t even pretend to reach the other side when it came to the rights of slaves. He knew very well that cooperating with the other side would mean the rights of slaves would be in jeopardy. Being a ruthless partisan who didn’t pretend to be bipartisan helped pass the 13th Amendment. He didn’t believe in this “unity” bullshit because he knew the other side was a threat to the goal of a multiracial democracy.
We need more politicians like Thaddeus Stevens today who recognize that “unity” and “bipartisanship” is utter bullshit and that you need to be totally partisan if you want to protect the rights of marginalized groups.
Back then, Grant and Lincoln wanted to end the war as soon as possible and end the bloodshed, because the people and Congress were not gonna let the war drag on endlessly to end slavery.
However, if Grant and Lincoln ever had flaws, it was their misguided belief in the goodness of all human beings. The Confederates (and former Confederates) were hateful, racist, vile traitors, often times crossing over into the inhuman actions of violence and betrayal. Lincoln and Grant (and the rest of the Republicans), did what was necessary and right to save the Union. But as much as a disgusting and evil person as Andrew Johnson was, I do wish he had gotten his way on the fate of former Confederate leaders. They all should've been tried as traitors and hung at the gallows. The damage those traitors did to Civil Rights and Racial Justice is incalculable. The blood of millions lays on their hands. The history of this nation is forever stained because they were racist, hateful, traitorous cowards. Lincoln and Grant treated them with mercy. As fellow countrymen. And in return? The Confederates did everything they could to forever damage our great nation. Grant and Lincoln were wrong. The Confederates were not good, decent people at heart. They were a malignant cancer, dedicated to the USA's destruction; allowed to fester and grow at our core, setting Civil Rights back 100 years and throwing the ideals of the Founding Father's into jeopardy. It's disgusting! It makes me angry! All because of what? They couldn't give up a profit? Because they couldn't give up their aristocracy, forged as a cheap mockery of what existed in Europe? Because they didn't want to face the truth that all human beings are equal? Because they couldn't admit that they had betrayed the nation and the ideals of the Enlightenment? Horrifying and cowardly.
Thaddeus Stevens was proven right as well as reconstruction was strangled in the crib as the confederate remnant lived on and still has political power today in the South holding the rest of us decent folks politically hostage.
Incorrect, being a ruthless partisan would have sunk it. Look at his speech near the end. He masked his convictions and took the bipartisan approach in order to not alienate his more racist white colleagues.
These are two of the greatest actors of all time playing two of the greatest Americans
Thaddeus’ ideals are the end goal we all aspire to, but Lincoln’s pragmatism here is why he’s the GOAT president. Change for the better must be a gradual process because generally speaking, humans hate change. In many cases, this is still evident today.
Thaddeus stevans... the leader we need today. Many of them
1:30 - 1:42 OK I'VE FOUND MY POLITICIAL ROLE MODEL! Less-than-three!
Love this. Today they'd be hurling insults and trading sound bytes. No, here are two intelligent, well-grounded men having a firm and frank, but not hostile conversation over what happens next.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, President Lincoln. (12 Feb 1809). May your unwavering loyalty to the Union remain enshrined in the conscience of Americans and citizens of the free world. Amen.
So sad that today we still deal with the same ignorance and racism. And the president doesn't temper it as Lincoln did. He exacerbates it. And hopefully we too will grow and learn from this era of division and hate.
@Erwin Rombel.naenae Hey pally, that's not how quotation marks work.
Obama was the one who stirred up racism.
I love this movie, the whole feels of it. I dare say this scene can be compared to the restaurant scene in Heat - the clashing of two charismatic characters.
Powerful scene, from two of the best actors in Hollywood.
Aloha 😊🤙🏼👏🏼
Aloha ☺ yes a great scene
Shoulda taken all the land from those southern general's like Robert E Lee, people like Jefferson Davis, whole lot of them. Take the land from the traitors and give it to the people.
Why not just let them secede peacefully?
@@andrewpytko4773 Traitors don't get mercy. They caused this war and betrayed their country and in Lee and others case their oath to the country as a whole when they enlisted and for that the war should have ended yes.... with them all at the end of a noose, the Justice that they deserved.
@@TheSerpent21 There is nothing in the Constitution to suggest secession is illegal.
@@TheSerpent21 Where in the constitution does it say secession is illegal?
@@andrewpytko4773 Secession is a nullification of Federal law. Argo, as it has been ruled many times, secession is illegal under Article 6 Section 2.
DANIEL DAY LEWIS, the greatest actor alive, I'm spechless !!!
Jesus two fine actors. this is as good as Pacino and deniro in heat.
And Pacino and deniro in the Irishman
Hell of a meeting... Unfortunately, what Stevens said is still true till this day...
Idealists (including me) are often right...but the path to reach Utopia is always defeated by the pragmatic reality of having to deal with the REALITY of the people.
And in the end, Stevens got his way. The North militarily occupied the south for over a decade trying to implement the changes necessary to ensure equal rights for all (as it was viewed at the time). In 1877, the Republican Party agreed to end the occupation and reconstruction efforts in exchange for the disputed Presidential election of 1876 being resolved in the GOP's favor.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_of_1877
In this case 'the people' that Stevens so detested included members of his own party who placed personal and party power over the cause of good governance.
“As time passes, people, even of the South, will begin to wonder how it was possible that their ancestors ever fought for or justified institutions which acknowledged the right of property in man.” - Ulysses S. Grant
Unfortunately, this... symptom of human nature has aided the Lost Cause narrative and kept our nation from healing. I have no idea how to get people to accept the evil of the past, let it go and move on into the future.
@@dclark142002 It's hard to say Stevens "got his way" when the most critical part of his plan was never implemented - wide-scale land reform and property seizure. In the end, that's what caused the failure of reconstruction; the pre-civil war structure of power and wealth was essentially untouched. After the immediate post-war years, wealthy land owners (ex-Confederates) eroded reconstruction efforts and politically/economically resisted the loosening military occupation until, as you point out, 1877, when they were able to essentially implement pre-war restrictions unimpeded.
In the end, too much power was given back too quickly to the South, and the pre-war power structures were left far too intact. That's why reconstruction ended up being watered down, and why the end of reconstruction lead essentially immediately into the era of Jim Crow. The South in general, and certainly African Americans, would have been better off if Stevens had actually got his way.
@@kesh862 You want to see what happen when you introduce "wide-scale land reform and property seizure" ?
Look at 1920s/30s Russia, 1950s China, 1970s Cambodia, 2000s Zimbabwe.
That never ever worked and that always bring more death and violence than anything else.
"Think, boy! What kind of an adventure would you have had if I brought you here with a turn of a page?"
-The Pagemaster
(That last bit reminded me of this childhood movie)
It’s not easy to steal a scene away from Daniel Day-Lewis, but Tommy Lee Jones just about does it
This scene sure is pure as gold! MY MAN TOMMY LEE, one & only!
Definitely one of my favorite scenes from this movie. Shows the genius of Lincoln. The compass analogy is excellent. Sure, you can go in the right direction, but you have to know how to negotiate the hills and chasms.
Amazing performances by two great actors.
Abraham Lincoln was a fucking badass and nobody will ever convince me otherwise.
Having to actors of this quality in one room playing out such historic roles is mesmerizing
Bomb. I could watch this movie over and over for this scene alone. How dare you?!?!? Is a cherry on top
You know, hearing Stevens proposals for the former slaves in the South makes me really sad, since had we done that then, our nation now would far more equal. But that's often the trap inherent in pushing for idealistic proposals- they sound too good to be true, because they often are. As much as I wish the environment in 1865 would've allowed for Steven's proposals to pass, they wouldn't, and could've jeopardized the progress that we did make. Lincoln was in the right in this.
@TMPanos96 I never said his proposal wouldn't have worked. Had it gotten passed it would been great, and would've gone a long way towards reducing racial inequality. The catch is if it got passed, which I am skeptical of. It was difficult for the republicans to pass just the 13th amendment, so had Stevens ignored Lincoln and insisted on pushing for his "radical" ideas, it would've hurt support in the house, and could've stopped the 13th amendment from passing. Stevens was a great man, and did a lot for slaves. There's also little denying that he was far less racist than Lincoln, who despite accomplishing great things, was still a bigot due to the time period. But here he's making perfect the enemy of the good.
I think both these men would be ashamed of the USA that exists today.
Lincoln was a mic drop kind of dude.
The most powerful Movie for me
Jones was good. But Daniel Day Lewis was in a different league all to himself. Very few actors have ever been able to reach the pure embodiment of a role as he does here. It is literally flawless and quite possibly the greatest performance in film history.
Jones was stylin on him
This man said “I shit on the people” and still lost the debate 😂 I love both these men but damn! Haha
I know this is Thaddeus Steven's lecturing Lincoln about "the people." But it can sure sound like Agent K lecturing Agent J on the same topic. 😆
Two great actors, on top of their game.
America ignored Thaddeus Stevens advice and it's still paying for it.
How ?
DDL is magnificent in every performance.
I keep coming back to this scene and I keep thinking that Lincoln and Stevens kind of liked each other, at least a little. They certainly respected one another. Lincoln was generally polite and quiet, but Stevens certainly didn't have a problem calling fools out.
Such a good scene. Stevens was morally 100% in the right, the South had forfeited all right to conditions or mercy by rising up in armed rebellion, World history was on his side as rebels were dealt with without mercy since the book of Genesis. BUT Lincoln also knew that history had shown such action would never repair the nation in a time when Empires were rising all around and the next conflict was inevitable approaching. Treating the South like the English treated the Irish would make unity impossible and likely cause an endless occupation. Thank goodness even a fraction of Lincoln's plan went into action, especially with the horros the next century would unleash.
By the same token, the Union being *too* lenient on the South during the Johnson years and eventually ending Reconstruction well before its time after Hayes's election created a HOST of problems of its own -- a nation permanently divided (with one side harboring a permanent resentment against the other) and the rebels and their sons and grandsons being allowed to mythologize and idolize their act of treason at will - with the evils that gave birth to that treason being allowed to once again manifest and take hold as they did before.
Too heavy a hand might have only spurred more rebellion, true, but the too SOFT hand that was applied in reality did nothing to solve matters either - on the contrary, not sufficiently punishing the South for their treason and essentially allowing them to write their own version of the story meant that, essentially, America never treated the wound that caused the Civil War in the first place; instead it was allowed to endure, to grow infected and to rot all over again.
Stevens was right that the South NEEDED to be De-Nazified, in some ways; that the whole society was rotten, from the top down, with the evil of slavery and racial segregation and that, thus, some manner of forced reeducation would be necessary.
This is really good because it demonstrates Lincoln’s magnanimity and political wisdom against idealism and extremism. That’s what makes a man truly great. The selflessness of doing what’s best for the country you serve.
Kind of sad and terrifying that Stevens would still be a radical to the South.
He might even be a Democrat.
Literally *none* of what Stevens said is relevant today. But I hope this post made you feel good.
Fun fact, this is when the microphone was invented, so Lincoln could drop it.
Mr Stevens is exactly correct @1:30
But old Abe gets the last word in regards to “true north “.
Both of them are right...thats what makes it such an interesting conversation.
Nah blood, thats a path to dictatorship in the wrong hands.
Joromo84 hilariously, it still happens now. Are we on some kind of goddamn honor system now? The rich continue to push for more and more and more of what little is left and still, STILL, were trying to reason with the unreasonable. I’m sorry but I’d reason that Stevens would rather risk the entire goddamn leg than lose it an inch at a time.
God I love this movie. The writers of Game of Thrones, Rings of Power, and The Witcher should take notes...
When it came out, I was ten minutes into the movie when I knew Day-Lewis had the Oscar.
Christ, Jones's bit that ends at 2:50-if his character saw the country now, I think he might be like, "So...shit still hasn't changed that much huh?"
Stevens is speaking of what should be, and Lincoln is speaking of what's possible
Politics is the art of the possible
It was possible. The South had been defeated.
Lincoln was civilized enough to hate slavery. But he was still a racist.
@@bryanjahava2610 almost everyone was a racist during this time. Let us not judge them by the lenses of the present. Lincoln was an idealist at heart if you read his speeches and letters, but his mind was very pragmatic if you study his politics.
Bryan Jahava well dude got shot before we saw what his American looked like so we’ll never truly know.
@@007ndc Sounds like something about Humphrey. The Art of the possible :)
My history prof told me that, in his opinion, we're still under reconstruction.
The civil war never really ended, there was too much unresolved. The issues run very deep though progress has been made.
Now that, would be a very interesting conversation indeed.
@Chris Smith I would say that isn't true. Implying that all progress ended after the term of President Grant is obviously false. I would say it's stopped and started multiple times. The Civil Rights era was a time of significant progress.'
It's not the same thing but just evolved. The south for example still was destroyed until after ww2 when FDR's and Eisenhower's policies updated our infrastructure but still today it has tons of poor ass people. And its not just the south as 1/3 of americans live pay check to paycheck and cant afford good health insurance. And that's because more modern politicians have become empowered through self gain and all the big money interest groups buying them off. People like trump and Hillary are the enemies of the working class as are other neoliberals and far right wingers
I think it useful to consider the ACW as a continuation of the various English revolutions which sought to alter the peoples relationship with government.
Many issues remain unresolved...and so the process will continue.
Just give them 40 acres and a mule, works for Spike Lee.
Imagine how different southern politics would be if their wealth was appropriated and redistributed
You would have giving socialist a more just reason by early as 45 years.
Their wealth was seized. Thankfully republicans flooded the southern urban areas and built industry. Took till 1994 for the kkk party the democrats to lose their hold of the south. Unfortunately they seized power on the coasts. The fight continues
@@johnholtz1205 The KKK votes Republican these days. They went over to the GOP when LBJ and the Democrats pushed Civil Rights in the 1960s and Nixon recruited the Dixiecrats and Klanners into Republican ranks. You haven't been paying attention.
Brilliant writing.
This speech shows that perpetual motion is better than no motion at all. Like Ray Liotta speech in Copland
Wow. "What's the use of knowing true north?" Need that wisdom now.
I love how there’s no mention of his wife until the end when he goes home to her, indicating why this form of equality was so important to him.
That was his housekeeper who was rumoured to be his lover.
@@alexthelizardking He left her the house, which was quite daring. She may not have been the reason he was a Radical Republican, but his regard for her certainly contributed to his belief in true equality between the races.
Unfortunately, Stevens was exactly 100 years ahead of his time. It's ridiculous it took until 1964-65 with the Civil and Voting Rights Acts to finally give blacks what they should have had centuries ago
If cartography requires more than just a compass in this world, so too must morality.
Great scene and a great man.
The estimated 750,000 dead (and rising with newer evidence) was a terrible toll for both nations of 31 million people. That's over 2% of the total population. As Lincoln realized right before he died, the entire country, North and South was being punished by the terrible bloodshed and destruction. Lincoln realized that civil wars leave deep, deep scars and they usually cause irreparable damage which is why he wanted fellowship and temperance for the South to make transition easier to bear instead of creating rifts and hatred. Unfortunately with him gone, vengeance became the mainstay of Reconstruction which only sowed the seeds of another century of hatred.
"Oh shit on the people! And what they want, and what they're ready for. I don't give a god damn about the people and what they want. This is the face of someone who has fought long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of them! And I look a lot worse without my wig!"
Thaddeus Stevens had balls! Lincoln was led astray by maccllean the freemason general and he could of fought early and often and won easily