I'd love to see a version of this that only includes guards/wings. Clearly rim protectors have a far greater impact but I'd like to know how players like Kawhi, Fraizer, etc stack up
@@HoopVenue my top offensive players you don't have to respect it but I'd bet them. 1 Meadowlark Lemon 2 Goose Tatum 3 Wilt Chamberlain 4 Earl Manigault 5 Pete Maravich also a great defender blocker steals and rebounder unlike the stories told. 6 Elgin Baylor 7 Curly Neal 8 Bill Sharmin 9 Dr j 10 George Gervin 11 Pre injury Nate Archibald 12 Joe Hammond 13 Oscar Robertson 14 Raymond Lewis 15 Kareem 16 Jerry west 17 Earl Monroe 18 Bob cousy 19 Bob Davies 20 MJ/Clyde drexler 21 Larry Bird 22 Magic 23 Kobe
@@MikeTheNBAGuy yeah he's one of the best defenders ever and very underrated. Kareem said he could easily back down someone 6 inches taller than him. Oscar is the most underrated defender. He's probably a top 5 defender all-time period.
Players: - Ben Wallace - Patrick Ewing - Dikembe Mutombo - Nate Thurmond - David Robinson - Wilt Chamberlain - Tim Duncan - Kevin Garnett - Hakeem Olajuwon - Bill Russell
Dwight is undersold here. Mutombo was much more limited in his mobility than Dwight, especially affecting his transition defense. Dwight's post defense wasn't really tested as well as these other greats, due to the decline of post offense in his era. But we can see even in the twilight of his career, his elite defense against Jokic helped the 2020 Lakers to a championship. A "short prime" was the criticism here, but he was effective for longer than Ben Wallace.
Everyone always has their reservations with everything like this. I've been watching hundreds of hours of film since I was a teenager, as basketball is basically a family religion and my step-grandfather is an NCAA and NBA scout. This is the first time I've run across something like this where the criteria, the weight they're given relative to each other, and the complete lack of recency bias and lack of underexposure to film have me thoroughly impressed. I don't like to rank players in the first place as it just doesn't make sense the more I study the game, but holy hell this is the only time I've seen a ranking video and didn't have a single reservation towards the observations given and the order of the players. That is fantastic.
Russell's 61-66 stretch doesn't even look real that is the mountain top right there. That is defensive impact so profound that Russell as a tepid offensive player with a little scoring potential but above average playmaking (if I'm not mistaken his passer rating was 4.7 and that may be low balling him a bit given his talent as an outlet passer) is still overall goat level gross impact. By goat level I mean somewhere in the top 5. His style of zone defense was enhanced by the lack of a three pt line but watching his reads, unbelievable reaction time and recovery, and picturesque proprioception and timing it's doubtful he would have had any issue with perimeter play and even spread offense. It just would have morphed him into more of a goat tier help defender, goat tier rim protector, high tier post man defense, high tier drive suppressor, (?) but probably still higher tier at transitioning from perimeter defense to keeping in step with e.g. a guard making a move towards the interior, and obviously still peerless at zone defense and switching in general in the interior.
Old comment but do you think Russell would be employed at the 4 in the modern NBA on defense (like AD often with the Lakers) and what type of ball-screen coveraged would you run with him?
@@Max-kv8uw Russell would be great at the 4 or 5 but I see him switching from 3-5 and even picking up guards situationally, more like Draymond than AD.
Remind me who had the most rebounds in nba history, Wilt Chamberlain and second was Bill Russell. Also let's look at one problem with your opinions? Bill Russell was concentrating almost exclusively on defense and play making during his career? Wilt Chamberlain's career was in three parts but for most of it he was the primary source of scoring and didn't have the same amount of time for defence than Bill Russell! If you actually had the numbers for blocks and steals Wilts figures would surpass any nba player that ever played top level basketball!
@Horror Hawk That's arguably not true, Wilt ran the court from both ends and is stats from his rookie season alone were very impressive both offensive and defensive the only person with higher stats historically in nba ever was Wilt himself! Wilts Rookie year 1959-60 37.6 points, 27.0 rebounds and 2.3 assists in 72 games. Bill Russell year 1959-60 18.2 points, 24 rebounds and 3.70 assists 74 games. The implication you are making with no evidence is that Bill Russell rebounded from both ends of the court while Wilt just waited in one spot and rebounded from there? That's ludicrous, the video evidence exists showing Wilts speed, stamina and him rebounding from both ends of the court and getting his team to the playoffs by not only his offensive play but his defence. Stats also show something important about wilts game his highest scoring game shows he didn't do anything differently than other nba legends like MJ or Kobe? Kobe Bryant 66%+ in attaining his 81 points. (with the three point line) ( 42 minutes on the court) MJ 59%- in attaining his top score of 69 points. (with the three point line) (50 minutes on the court) Wilt Chamberlain's 59+% in attaining his top score of 100 points. (Without the three point line) ( 48 minutes on the court)
Because he wasn’t a great rim protector Like it’s cool watching some highlights and him supposedly stopping shaq for example Then u actually watch the entire game…
Might as well rename this video "Top 10 Interior Defenders" and make another one for the 10 best perimeter defenders. Guys like Dennis Johnson and Sidney Moncrief deserve some recognition.
Really good video, you're almost an extension of Ben's channel lol. I'm curious as to how good you think Russell's defense was in a vacuum ignoring era. How much better do you think he was say relative to Hakeem or KG if he were to play in their era. 10% better per season, 20%? I know the time travel hypothetical is very subjective but I wonder what your take is after watching film of all of them.
my thoughts on Bill is that while he did benefit from era greatly, he would still be the GOAT defender in any era, whereas Thurmond and Wilt would lose a lot of value, because of how smart Bill was and how much ground he was able to cover on that end, I think a peak Bill Russell in any other era adds about 12% the value of any other peak defender.
@@buckybadgerw3522 while his man-to-man defense was spectacular and extremely versatile, he was very lazy off the ball and weaker in help situations, 1995 Spurs vs Rockets is a prime example.
@@HoopVenue do you mean for his career overall or peak aswell? cause id agree his off ball defence was suspect after around 92 (reb chasing and inconsistent motor, 95 wcf is a good example as you said) but imo he was good off ball at peak, good enough that combined w/his individual defence hes up there with pippen/kawhi/bobby for goat wing defender.
@@thb1091 I would say off-ball was always a bit of a weak spot for Rodman, obviously in Detroit he was active enough that combined with his historic man defense he was a GOAT level defensive wing peak for peak, but it still wasn't enough to put him in that next tier of defenders overall.
Wow. Tough to judge, but leaving off Jordan, Pippen, Tony Allen, Gary Payton, Ron Artest, Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, John Stockton, Draymond Green, Bobby Jones, Kobe in his prime, etc. , it's just a tough list to make.
i can sort of understand putting Garnett over Timmy because Timmy played next to Kawhi and Bowen and Robinson. I cannot however understand putting either of them over Wilt. Even in his last few years he was an absolute monster, even against Kareem
You obviously did your homework, but I feel like Dwight Howard was a superior defender to Ewing. Dwight anchored similarly dominant defenses with rosters that were much more offensively slanted.
@@HoopVenue that's a cool website. Just wondering for Mooses Malone. How good was he on the offensive end other then rebounds and defensively also. Was he a good one ? Because people say hes bad and a black hole so not true if it was true. He definlelety was a underrated player also took the 40 win rockets to the finals including his impact in philly where he took them to the finals outrebounding Kareem
T J if you want to see my more in-depth dive in Moses’ game to to my last top 100 video, he’s in there and I can provide more on his offensive game there
1-wilt..2-russell..3-alonzo mourning..4-hakeem..5-rodman..6-pippen..7-nate thurmond..8-mutombo..9-artis gilmore..10-david robinson..11-ewing..12-moses.....best two defensive point gaurds are dennis johnson and jason kidd....best 2gaurd was michael cooper...best power forwards were mchale,duncan..but wilt avg double digit blocks and steals for his career
Imma keep it real with you. You totally lost me when you had Ben Wallace at #10 and I was done once you put Patrick Ewing at #9. Peak > Longevity. Ben Wallace is a Top 5 defender of All-Time respectfully and the only player to have more blocks than fouls, and only defender to to guard Shaq straight up. the Pistons made 6 straight Eastern Conference Finals with him anchoring the defense, and intangibles such as fear factor where very real when "The Fro" was on the court.
I wouldn't even have Wallace on my top 5 peaks list, sure he was a very high-level anchor on some amazing defenses but let's not act like he was doing it alone. They started reaching historic levels when Sheed got there, along with Billups and Prince being clear positives, and a great coach with a phenomenal defensive scheme where they abused teams with their length. He had limitations as a rim protector and was often more in the "helping role" we often see Draymond Green in today, which is a pretty good reason as to why his foul rates are lower than those who are forced to serve as a primary. As for the Shaq mention, he was absurdly efficient in that series and that was during the season that he started to fall off a cliff, Wallace's defense on him didn't really change too much due to lack of size. Peak Wallace > Peak Ewing, but if we eliminate longevity Bill Walton is leaping both of them anyways.
Do you know what song you used in your intro that shows all the players flashing by in red like marvel? The one where it sounds like a feminine voice humming? I would like to know the song please.
Id assume if tracked wilt would be all time shot blocker by a wide margin? I forget the guys name but he tracked stats that werent official at the time like blocks and in the small sample size available he got so many blocks, and that was old past prime chamberlain.
@Dodong Altamarino The whole point of defense is to stop the other team from scoring. So a player locking down the paint and stopping all 5 positions from scoring the most efficient shots in basketball is going to be more effective at stopping the other team from scoring than locking down just one player like Dennis Rodman, or getting a few steals a game.
Good list. I have wilt ranked a little higher .only cause i take into account the defensive ability wilt showed when his role was reduced on offense . When motivated even an old wilt chamberlin cut basically shut down the paint and most players
I don't agree with this theory of blocking covers most of the defending, I mean all it takes is being big (6'10"+) and good ball tracking, so you disrespecting elite defenders like Dennis Rodman and Scottie Pippen. perimeter defending requires speed, great defensive IQ, so basing on a few stats especially for blocks is pointless because defence is more than just blocks
it's the CORP that I explained at the beginning of the video, ultimately how much defensive impact I believe they accumulated over their career based on seasonal valuations.
HE LITERALLY SAID RIM PROTECTORS WILL ALWAYS GET MORE RECOGNITION FOR CLOGGING UP LANES YET TODAYS GAME GIVES UP THE 2 TO DEFEND THE 3.I THINK WINGS HAVE TO WORK HARDER AND ARE “PROTECTING” 3 POINT SHOTS
Kareem is almost certainly missing 1100 blocks which would move him past Olajuwon who resides in 1st place all time in Blocks. Blocks were not recorded as an official game stat until his 5th season. He led the league in Blocks 4 times once they began being counted. He was 1st Team All Defense Center 5 times and 2nd Team All Defense Center 6 times. DPOY did not exist until 1982-1983 which was the season he turned 36. He would be the overwhelming favorite for DPOY in all 5 of his 1st Team Years.
Bill Russell's defense alone was good enough to make him the most valuable playoff player (in terms of win shares) 5 times, which is more than anyone else besides Jordan and Lebron
Neither Rodman nor Draymond being an honorable mention is crazy. You clearly value rim-protection way higher than other analytical content creators such as thinking basketball.
...i don't know...i would figure the player with more all defensive teams would be number 1...at least number 2... putting K.G and hake ahead of Duncan is crazy...
The list focus to much in big players, Payton and MJ had, I believe, 9 selectons on the first defensive team and no mention on them, only KG and Duncan have as much as them
No Dennis Rodman? This is fraudulent. Also, Steals change possession, not all Blocks do and not all shots, including layups, are 100% going in. Rim protection is the last line defense, but there's elite defenders who did not depend on a great Shotblocker, Like Mike, Rodman, Pippen, Payton, Marion & Green, who stopped elite offensive players from even getting to the rim protector.
And one thing people always say oh he had 10 hell of fames on his team no bill made 7 of them hell of fames the only 3 that are all time great players are Sam Jones and John and bob Cousy he made the rest great give bill his respect
Why doesn't Chamberlain get any respect ? If I were going to choose my starting five Wilt would always be my first choice at the center position. In fact, I always have him in the GOAT discussion. But I guess I'm biased. I don't really enjoy many players after the early 2000's. I really like Iverson, Derrick Rose, and a few others but the basketball seemed better to me in the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's. When a guy drives the lane and has a dunk available but instead passes out to the corner for a three-attempt I switch channels.
@@Papichulo-xc5nd we can't see his steals or blocks. Wilt could do or whatever he wanted he shot a bunch till 66 and it's in the stats that he started taking Les shots and doing more in other areas after 66
@@dustincobb5718 there’s more to defense than just blocks. Russell captained the greatest defensive dynasty ever. Wilts team allowed the most points in the league for a few years
@@Papichulo-xc5nd Russell Was in no way better than wilt. Look at the playoff stats. The better team won not the better player. If wilt had been a Celtic and Russell stayed a warrior I believe it was he'd have 13 ships.
Tim Duncan never guarded perimeter players for a primary matchup. Only Nate Thurmond and Bill Russell have the honor as big men whom have guarded actual perimeter players as a primary matchup the entire game. However, Tim Duncan is indeed the reason why you should never go by awards like Defensive player of the year as it proves such awards are useless in ranking players defensively or all time due to their inconsistency
@@Coldskin1 What is the perimeter in basketball? The perimeter in basketball is that area of the court within the three point arc but outside of the paint. Shots from this area are referred to as “perimeter shots” or “mid-range shots.” U casuals should apply for the circus 🎪
@@Coldskin1 On top of that, they guarded players whom brung the ball up all the same from the other end of the court and guarded them even when dribbling and even shooting form the amount of feet that would later be considered the 3 point line and beyond. Another reason y’all belong in the 🎪 🤡
Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, and Willis Reed were his competition at the Center position. All Hall of Famers. Trying to discredit Russell's era for supposedly having no talent is a tired and used up narrative. Better luck next time Junior...
Not that Ben, Ben was Draymond level defense, far stronger and affecting the rebounds on an all time great level. For real, Ben was a monster defending screens, from 01-07 for real, maybe only KG was better than him at doing more.
Wilt had one more rebound per game career average than Russell, and 3 times the league average, blocked as many or more shots, and had equal assists, to boot. Yes, Boston beat Wilt's teams, in the playoffs, by about a 3 point average, per game. Wilt, at number 5, is just wrong. Number one, or 2, along with Russell, and I wouldn't strongly argue against either of them, at either ranking. I got to watch them play, fairly often, real time. Wilt impressed me more, at the time. I was just a kid, for most of that time, but I know what impressed me.
Wilt also got called for 100x times as many goaltends as bill, hardly ever left the paint, couldn’t guard quick perimeter players, and his blocks generally went out of bounds while bill’s went to his teammates. Bill is easily a better defender than wilt.
@@roundtable3501 Did you see all of this real time, or in youtube videos, or in interviews of Red Auerbach and other old Celtics? I don't remember seeing Bill Russell play a lot of perimeter defense, real time, or in these videos. I will give that he made an art of blocking shots, and was very close to Wilt in rebounding and I respect his game, but "100 times as many goal tends" is a bit of hyperbole. I watched them both play, real time, a fair amount, but not every game, by any means. Russell could block shots and redirect them, but he didn't block many at the top of the ball's arc, which Wilt did, often, hence goal tending, after it was implemented as an infraction.
Like you’re trying to stay unbiased & justified the list with some arguments. Still cant agree Draymond’s off the list. Versatility + motor + historical def IQ + 11 years of All-D performance (and still counting). I’d agree Payton and MJ are kinda overrated, AK-47 def prime was shorter, even Kawhi & Pippen might be debatable at some part - but Draymond is an anchor.
Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were about the same level Defender when they played on the Chicago Bulls that is quite impressive he's four years younger than Rodman and Rodman only really started playing basketball when he was 21. You could argue Scottie Pippen was a better Defender but that's only because Rodman started so late he didn't develop his skills before his physical athletic Prime imagine what type of monster he would have been if had the time to develop like most players
Hakeem's destory was over rated Kareem 38 to 41 yes old shot 60% on Hakeem. Also Kareem outscored Hakeem. That's the highest FG% I know of vs legends. Wilt held Kareem to 46%. Thurmond 47%. Sampson, Reed, Cowens and on and on 50% something. None of these guys are said to be better defenders than Hakeem. Hakeem did great vs Ewing. But Patrick Ewing is not on levek of Wilt, Kareem, Shaq offensively. David Robinson also is above Patrick Ewing. David Robinson almost matched Hakeem head to head.
Bill Russell was a defensive nightmare, but, he didn't block more shots or get more rebounds than Wilt who completely demolished Bill's offensive output as well. There is a weird bias against Chamberlain. He is the best defensive player of all-time and probably the best player of all-time.
My Goat Starting 5 PG Curry: Will space out for the entire team SG MJ: Self Explanatory SF Bron: Good Shooting, Amazing Defense, High IQ, and Great Paint Presence PF Timmy D: Can stretch out to the mid range, all time defense, nice deviation from MJ's attitude C Bill Russell: Top 5 Defender and Rebounder, is the perfect medium between MJ's loud personality and Tim's quiet and leadership by example styles
I hate this list smh. How are you not gonna include not even one perimeter player. The wing defenders from the 2000's and up were almost just as important as rim protectors bc they had to slow down the great iso scorers. Guys like Ron artest, kawhi , Tony Allen even LeBron were all anchors (from the perimeter) of great defenses during that span.
Man every Detroit person alive says Rodman was a better defender than Wallace and you get yelled at if you think vice versa w the people who watched them😂 I can’t understand why Ben is top 10 and Rodman isn’t even a HM
To me, KG is really the best one. He was clamping the entire court. The only reason minnesota wasnt always a top 5 defense is because the only non bad defender he played was Billups and 1 year of Malik Sealy. Man if minnesota did a better job there...
Top 10 Offensive Players of All Time Next?
Yessir
Yes please
yessir
yesssss
maybe
I'd love to see a version of this that only includes guards/wings. Clearly rim protectors have a far greater impact but I'd like to know how players like Kawhi, Fraizer, etc stack up
Will probably do that in the near future
@@HoopVenue my top offensive players you don't have to respect it but I'd bet them.
1 Meadowlark Lemon
2 Goose Tatum
3 Wilt Chamberlain
4 Earl Manigault
5 Pete Maravich also a great defender blocker steals and rebounder unlike the stories told.
6 Elgin Baylor
7 Curly Neal
8 Bill Sharmin
9 Dr j
10 George Gervin
11 Pre injury Nate Archibald
12 Joe Hammond
13 Oscar Robertson
14 Raymond Lewis
15 Kareem
16 Jerry west
17 Earl Monroe
18 Bob cousy
19 Bob Davies
20 MJ/Clyde drexler
21 Larry Bird
22 Magic
23 Kobe
@mikethenbaguy Pgs defenders I got
1 Oscar Robertson
2 Walt Frazier.
@@dustincobb5718 Robertson??
@@MikeTheNBAGuy yeah he's one of the best defenders ever and very underrated. Kareem said he could easily back down someone 6 inches taller than him. Oscar is the most underrated defender. He's probably a top 5 defender all-time period.
Players:
- Ben Wallace
- Patrick Ewing
- Dikembe Mutombo
- Nate Thurmond
- David Robinson
- Wilt Chamberlain
- Tim Duncan
- Kevin Garnett
- Hakeem Olajuwon
- Bill Russell
Dwight is undersold here. Mutombo was much more limited in his mobility than Dwight, especially affecting his transition defense. Dwight's post defense wasn't really tested as well as these other greats, due to the decline of post offense in his era. But we can see even in the twilight of his career, his elite defense against Jokic helped the 2020 Lakers to a championship. A "short prime" was the criticism here, but he was effective for longer than Ben Wallace.
Everyone always has their reservations with everything like this.
I've been watching hundreds of hours of film since I was a teenager, as basketball is basically a family religion and my step-grandfather is an NCAA and NBA scout. This is the first time I've run across something like this where the criteria, the weight they're given relative to each other, and the complete lack of recency bias and lack of underexposure to film have me thoroughly impressed. I don't like to rank players in the first place as it just doesn't make sense the more I study the game, but holy hell this is the only time I've seen a ranking video and didn't have a single reservation towards the observations given and the order of the players. That is fantastic.
Appreciate it man!
Watch Thinking basketball
Bro that bill russel playoff chart lmao
Russell's 61-66 stretch doesn't even look real that is the mountain top right there. That is defensive impact so profound that Russell as a tepid offensive player with a little scoring potential but above average playmaking (if I'm not mistaken his passer rating was 4.7 and that may be low balling him a bit given his talent as an outlet passer) is still overall goat level gross impact. By goat level I mean somewhere in the top 5.
His style of zone defense was enhanced by the lack of a three pt line but watching his reads, unbelievable reaction time and recovery, and picturesque proprioception and timing it's doubtful he would have had any issue with perimeter play and even spread offense. It just would have morphed him into more of a goat tier help defender, goat tier rim protector, high tier post man defense, high tier drive suppressor, (?) but probably still higher tier at transitioning from perimeter defense to keeping in step with e.g. a guard making a move towards the interior, and obviously still peerless at zone defense and switching in general in the interior.
Old comment but do you think Russell would be employed at the 4 in the modern NBA on defense (like AD often with the Lakers) and what type of ball-screen coveraged would you run with him?
Max he’d lose value as a spacer so now
@@Max-kv8uw Russell would be great at the 4 or 5 but I see him switching from 3-5 and even picking up guards situationally, more like Draymond than AD.
@@Max-kv8uw Russell would be a better version of Gobert.
Gobert?? Gobert never leaves the paint area for help defense...
Rodman not being here is a crime
Remind me who had the most rebounds in nba history, Wilt Chamberlain and second was Bill Russell.
Also let's look at one problem with your opinions?
Bill Russell was concentrating almost exclusively on defense and play making during his career?
Wilt Chamberlain's career was in three parts but for most of it he was the primary source of scoring and didn't have the same amount of time for defence than Bill Russell!
If you actually had the numbers for blocks and steals Wilts figures would surpass any nba player that ever played top level basketball!
@Horror Hawk That's arguably not true, Wilt ran the court from both ends and is stats from his rookie season alone were very impressive both offensive and defensive the only person with higher stats historically in nba ever was Wilt himself!
Wilts Rookie year 1959-60 37.6 points, 27.0 rebounds and 2.3 assists in 72 games.
Bill Russell year 1959-60 18.2 points, 24 rebounds and 3.70 assists 74 games.
The implication you are making with no evidence is that Bill Russell rebounded from both ends of the court while Wilt just waited in one spot and rebounded from there?
That's ludicrous, the video evidence exists showing Wilts speed, stamina and him rebounding from both ends of the court and getting his team to the playoffs by not only his offensive play but his defence.
Stats also show something important about wilts game his highest scoring game shows he didn't do anything differently than other nba legends like MJ or Kobe?
Kobe Bryant 66%+ in attaining his 81 points.
(with the three point line) ( 42 minutes on the court)
MJ 59%- in attaining his top score of 69 points.
(with the three point line) (50 minutes on the court)
Wilt Chamberlain's 59+% in attaining his top score of 100 points.
(Without the three point line) ( 48 minutes on the court)
As bloated as wilts numbers look when compared to today it came out to be 20ppg 10rpg
Jesus that rebound around 19:00 on the ft attempt was disgustingly good.
If you continue like that you have the potential of being the best basketball RUclipsr
talk WUDO
Appreciate it man 🤝
One of the best channels on youtube
Not having Dennis Rodman on this list is crazy
Because he wasn’t a great rim protector
Like it’s cool watching some highlights and him supposedly stopping shaq for example
Then u actually watch the entire game…
Drob was an amazingpassing lane interceptor also. He was at 2.6 Stls/75
Young Hakeem as well.
Might as well rename this video "Top 10 Interior Defenders" and make another one for the 10 best perimeter defenders. Guys like Dennis Johnson and Sidney Moncrief deserve some recognition.
Really good video, you're almost an extension of Ben's channel lol. I'm curious as to how good you think Russell's defense was in a vacuum ignoring era. How much better do you think he was say relative to Hakeem or KG if he were to play in their era. 10% better per season, 20%? I know the time travel hypothetical is very subjective but I wonder what your take is after watching film of all of them.
my thoughts on Bill is that while he did benefit from era greatly, he would still be the GOAT defender in any era, whereas Thurmond and Wilt would lose a lot of value, because of how smart Bill was and how much ground he was able to cover on that end, I think a peak Bill Russell in any other era adds about 12% the value of any other peak defender.
Thegumbojumbo Russell’s era was the peak of basketball. Plus spacing in the 60s is the same as 80s pretty much
Good list. Olajuwon was a beast!
You should do a top 10 defensive teams
You are incredible man
Dam. I would've had Hakeem and Bill switched before this but that impact chart is otherworldly. What all does the final graph take into account?
It’s the seasonal valuations for their year by year impact relative to era
Awesome video thank you !
Just found this channel yesterday. Definitely has potential to be the GOAT Hoops RUclips channel
Appreciate it bro 🤝
@@HoopVenue Also just wondering, why no Rodman?
@@buckybadgerw3522 while his man-to-man defense was spectacular and extremely versatile, he was very lazy off the ball and weaker in help situations, 1995 Spurs vs Rockets is a prime example.
@@HoopVenue do you mean for his career overall or peak aswell? cause id agree his off ball defence was suspect after around 92 (reb chasing and inconsistent motor, 95 wcf is a good example as you said) but imo he was good off ball at peak, good enough that combined w/his individual defence hes up there with pippen/kawhi/bobby for goat wing defender.
@@thb1091 I would say off-ball was always a bit of a weak spot for Rodman, obviously in Detroit he was active enough that combined with his historic man defense he was a GOAT level defensive wing peak for peak, but it still wasn't enough to put him in that next tier of defenders overall.
Wow. Tough to judge, but leaving off Jordan, Pippen, Tony Allen, Gary Payton, Ron Artest, Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, John Stockton, Draymond Green, Bobby Jones, Kobe in his prime, etc. , it's just a tough list to make.
Jerry West Walt Frazier
found you through kenny, great vids
Appreciate it
i can sort of understand putting Garnett over Timmy because Timmy played next to Kawhi and Bowen and Robinson. I cannot however understand putting either of them over Wilt. Even in his last few years he was an absolute monster, even against Kareem
Can you do top 10 perimeter defenders?
do a permiter defense list next
You obviously did your homework, but I feel like Dwight Howard was a superior defender to Ewing. Dwight anchored similarly dominant defenses with rosters that were much more offensively slanted.
I actually would agree peak for peak, Howard > Ewing, but Ewing’s longevity and consistency is what moved the needle on this list.
He was
Good video, do one on 3, 2, and 1 positions
Great video mate! 👍👍
Just wondering where do u get your stats from like the 3 year peak and defensive impact those stuff in that chart ?
Mostly from Backpicks.com Patreon
@@HoopVenue that's a cool website. Just wondering for Mooses Malone. How good was he on the offensive end other then rebounds and defensively also. Was he a good one ? Because people say hes bad and a black hole so not true if it was true. He definlelety was a underrated player also took the 40 win rockets to the finals including his impact in philly where he took them to the finals outrebounding Kareem
T J if you want to see my more in-depth dive in Moses’ game to to my last top 100 video, he’s in there and I can provide more on his offensive game there
@@HoopVenue episode 9 right?
@@tj5180 yes
1-wilt..2-russell..3-alonzo mourning..4-hakeem..5-rodman..6-pippen..7-nate thurmond..8-mutombo..9-artis gilmore..10-david robinson..11-ewing..12-moses.....best two defensive point gaurds are dennis johnson and jason kidd....best 2gaurd was michael cooper...best power forwards were mchale,duncan..but wilt avg double digit blocks and steals for his career
Wilt is right where he's supposed to be, he explained why....
Imma keep it real with you. You totally lost me when you had Ben Wallace at #10 and I was done once you put Patrick Ewing at #9. Peak > Longevity. Ben Wallace is a Top 5 defender of All-Time respectfully and the only player to have more blocks than fouls, and only defender to to guard Shaq straight up. the Pistons made 6 straight Eastern Conference Finals with him anchoring the defense, and intangibles such as fear factor where very real when "The Fro" was on the court.
I wouldn't even have Wallace on my top 5 peaks list, sure he was a very high-level anchor on some amazing defenses but let's not act like he was doing it alone.
They started reaching historic levels when Sheed got there, along with Billups and Prince being clear positives, and a great coach with a phenomenal defensive scheme where they abused teams with their length.
He had limitations as a rim protector and was often more in the "helping role" we often see Draymond Green in today, which is a pretty good reason as to why his foul rates are lower than those who are forced to serve as a primary.
As for the Shaq mention, he was absurdly efficient in that series and that was during the season that he started to fall off a cliff, Wallace's defense on him didn't really change too much due to lack of size.
Peak Wallace > Peak Ewing, but if we eliminate longevity Bill Walton is leaping both of them anyways.
@@HoopVenue
Would you give Walton a top 5 defensive peak ever?
@@HoopVenue I strongly and respectfully disagree with you.
I agree because of wallace versatility he could not only protect the rim he could also graud the perimeter as well
A legend was born
Do you know what song you used in your intro that shows all the players flashing by in red like marvel? The one where it sounds like a feminine voice humming? I would like to know the song please.
Id assume if tracked wilt would be all time shot blocker by a wide margin? I forget the guys name but he tracked stats that werent official at the time like blocks and in the small sample size available he got so many blocks, and that was old past prime chamberlain.
Nice video
Dwight really anchored a top 15 defense when he was 23. Just crazy
He should be on this list
Yeah, he was such dominant from 07 to 12 as a defender...monster
Top ten shot blockers not top 10 defender..defense includes stealing and lock down opponents like rodman
@Dodong Altamarino
The whole point of defense is to stop the other team from scoring. So a player locking down the paint and stopping all 5 positions from scoring the most efficient shots in basketball is going to be more effective at stopping the other team from scoring than locking down just one player like Dennis Rodman, or getting a few steals a game.
This channel is a W
Excellent video. You actually looked at advanced stats and win shares. Best defensive video of nba history on RUclips!
Good list. I have wilt ranked a little higher .only cause i take into account the defensive ability wilt showed when his role was reduced on offense . When motivated even an old wilt chamberlin cut basically shut down the paint and most players
I don't agree with this theory of blocking covers most of the defending, I mean all it takes is being big (6'10"+) and good ball tracking, so you disrespecting elite defenders like Dennis Rodman and Scottie Pippen. perimeter defending requires speed, great defensive IQ, so basing on a few stats especially for blocks is pointless because defence is more than just blocks
Would you be able to get into your calculations more specifically for CORP?
How do you measure defensive impact of Bill Russell? Where did you get that info?
it's the CORP that I explained at the beginning of the video, ultimately how much defensive impact I believe they accumulated over their career based on seasonal valuations.
19:45 what does the number on the left measure?
It’s the career CORP values that I did by season, basically my opinion on how much defensive value they added over their career
HE LITERALLY SAID RIM PROTECTORS WILL ALWAYS GET MORE RECOGNITION FOR CLOGGING UP LANES YET TODAYS GAME GIVES UP THE 2 TO DEFEND THE 3.I THINK WINGS HAVE TO WORK HARDER AND ARE “PROTECTING” 3 POINT SHOTS
Kareem is almost certainly missing 1100 blocks which would move him past Olajuwon who resides in 1st place all time in Blocks. Blocks were not recorded as an official game stat until his 5th season. He led the league in Blocks 4 times once they began being counted.
He was 1st Team All Defense Center 5 times and 2nd Team All Defense Center 6 times.
DPOY did not exist until 1982-1983 which was the season he turned 36. He would be the overwhelming favorite for DPOY in all 5 of his 1st Team Years.
Bill Russell's defense alone was good enough to make him the most valuable playoff player (in terms of win shares) 5 times, which is more than anyone else besides Jordan and Lebron
Neither Rodman nor Draymond being an honorable mention is crazy. You clearly value rim-protection way higher than other analytical content creators such as thinking basketball.
The Draymond omission is just because of longevity, at his peak he'd be top 10.
...i don't know...i would figure the player with more all defensive teams would be number 1...at least number 2... putting K.G and hake ahead of Duncan is crazy...
Wemby gonna top this list by the end of the decade
Subscribed
And about Jordan and Rodman?
The list focus to much in big players, Payton and MJ had, I believe, 9 selectons on the first defensive team and no mention on them, only KG and Duncan have as much as them
No Dennis Rodman? This is fraudulent. Also, Steals change possession, not all Blocks do and not all shots, including layups, are 100% going in. Rim protection is the last line defense, but there's elite defenders who did not depend on a great Shotblocker, Like Mike, Rodman, Pippen, Payton, Marion & Green, who stopped elite offensive players from even getting to the rim protector.
Hakeem and Sampson or Robinson and Duncan ? Which was the bigger NIGHTMARE pair to play against ?
How many titles did Sampson and Olajuwon win together ?
Hakeem and Sampson can't go wrong either way 😊
1wilt
2russell
3 hakeem
4 robinson
5 wallace
6 mutumbo
7 morning
8 nate thurmond
9:rodmon
10:Artis Gilmore
I would argue that Garnett had better defensive IQ than Russell
Dream is no 1 in blocks, and top 10 in steals. That's ALL AROUND full court defensive.
All yours are worthy but must mention Satch Sanders and KC Jones join Russell
And one thing people always say oh he had 10 hell of fames on his team no bill made 7 of them hell of fames the only 3 that are all time great players are Sam Jones and John and bob Cousy he made the rest great give bill his respect
The craziest stat ever is that the Celtics won one of their championships while having the worst offense in the league.
Insane!
Why doesn't Chamberlain get any respect ? If I were going to choose my starting five Wilt would always be my first choice at the center position. In fact, I always have him in the GOAT discussion. But I guess I'm biased. I don't really enjoy many players after the early 2000's. I really like Iverson, Derrick Rose, and a few others but the basketball seemed better to me in the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's. When a guy drives the lane and has a dunk available but instead passes out to the corner for a three-attempt I switch channels.
I think Timmy and KG are in reverse order.
Let’s go!
aint you that rockets fan on twitter?
@@itzwakk335 maybe
What would your list look like if you chose longevity over peak?
Pretty sure it would be:
1. Bill
2. KG
3. Hakeem
4. Tim
5. Wilt
6. DRob
7. Mutombo
8. Thurmond
9. Ewing
10. Wallace
so not too different.
@@HoopVenue no Elvin Hayes?
John Rouguine would be 11th still
W video
One day, Wemby will find himself in a list just like this.
I'll do top 5
1 Wilt chamberlain
2 Nate Thurmond
3 Bill Russell
4 Bob Lanier
5 Hakeem
Dustin Cobb there’s nothing that suggests wilt was better defender than Russell. Look at the advanced defensive metrics and DRTG
@@Papichulo-xc5nd we can't see his steals or blocks. Wilt could do or whatever he wanted he shot a bunch till 66 and it's in the stats that he started taking Les shots and doing more in other areas after 66
@@dustincobb5718 there’s more to defense than just blocks. Russell captained the greatest defensive dynasty ever. Wilts team allowed the most points in the league for a few years
@@Papichulo-xc5nd Russell Was in no way better than wilt. Look at the playoff stats. The better team won not the better player. If wilt had been a Celtic and Russell stayed a warrior I believe it was he'd have 13 ships.
@@Papichulo-xc5nd that's not all I said.
Tim Duncan never guarded perimeter players for a primary matchup. Only Nate Thurmond and Bill Russell have the honor as big men whom have guarded actual perimeter players as a primary matchup the entire game.
However, Tim Duncan is indeed the reason why you should never go by awards like Defensive player of the year as it proves such awards are useless in ranking players defensively or all time due to their inconsistency
nate thurmond nd bill russell played when there no 3 ptline 🤡
@@Coldskin1 What is the perimeter in basketball? The perimeter in basketball is that area of the court within the three point arc but outside of the paint. Shots from this area are referred to as “perimeter shots” or “mid-range shots.”
U casuals should apply for the circus 🎪
@@Coldskin1 On top of that, they guarded players whom brung the ball up all the same from the other end of the court and guarded them even when dribbling and even shooting form the amount of feet that would later be considered the 3 point line and beyond. Another reason y’all belong in the 🎪 🤡
1.Bill Russel
Gap
2.Hakeem
3.KG
4.Duncan
5.Wilt
my personnel top 5
You are “personally” fucked up in your list!
Bro who did bill russell play against tho??
Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, and Willis Reed were his competition at the Center position. All Hall of Famers. Trying to discredit Russell's era for supposedly having no talent is a tired and used up narrative. Better luck next time Junior...
People vouching for Simmons to win DPOY don’t understand what you explained in the beginning about big vs wing defense
Great video but I truly believe that Draymond has the impact to either take Big Ben or Patrick Ewing's Spot respectfully
Seriously, he’s so much more versatile than any other defender in history
Not that Ben, Ben was Draymond level defense, far stronger and affecting the rebounds on an all time great level. For real, Ben was a monster defending screens, from 01-07 for real, maybe only KG was better than him at doing more.
Not even close look at the advanced stats. This video is actually spot on in this topic!
Wilt had one more rebound per game career average than Russell, and 3 times the league average, blocked as many or more shots, and had equal assists, to boot. Yes, Boston beat Wilt's teams, in the playoffs, by about a 3 point average, per game. Wilt, at number 5, is just wrong. Number one, or 2, along with Russell, and I wouldn't strongly argue against either of them, at either ranking. I got to watch them play, fairly often, real time. Wilt impressed me more, at the time. I was just a kid, for most of that time, but I know what impressed me.
Wilt also got called for 100x times as many goaltends as bill, hardly ever left the paint, couldn’t guard quick perimeter players, and his blocks generally went out of bounds while bill’s went to his teammates. Bill is easily a better defender than wilt.
@@roundtable3501 Did you see all of this real time, or in youtube videos, or in interviews of Red Auerbach and other old Celtics? I don't remember seeing Bill Russell play a lot of perimeter defense, real time, or in these videos. I will give that he made an art of blocking shots, and was very close to Wilt in rebounding and I respect his game, but "100 times as many goal tends" is a bit of hyperbole. I watched them both play, real time, a fair amount, but not every game, by any means. Russell could block shots and redirect them, but he didn't block many at the top of the ball's arc, which Wilt did, often, hence goal tending, after it was implemented as an infraction.
Like you’re trying to stay unbiased & justified the list with some arguments.
Still cant agree Draymond’s off the list. Versatility + motor + historical def IQ + 11 years of All-D performance (and still counting).
I’d agree Payton and MJ are kinda overrated, AK-47 def prime was shorter, even Kawhi & Pippen might be debatable at some part - but Draymond is an anchor.
Dennis Rodman???
Probably the most versatile man defender ever but a very lazy off ball defender, think he came in 21st on my list
@@HoopVenue you should do a perimeter defender list since these all centers
I’m probably going to soon
@@HoopVenue
I definetely agree with Scottie Pippen and Bobby Jones being better defenders than Rodman.
Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were about the same level Defender when they played on the Chicago Bulls that is quite impressive he's four years younger than Rodman and Rodman only really started playing basketball when he was 21. You could argue Scottie Pippen was a better Defender but that's only because Rodman started so late he didn't develop his skills before his physical athletic Prime imagine what type of monster he would have been if had the time to develop like most players
Hakeem's destory was over rated Kareem 38 to 41 yes old shot 60% on Hakeem. Also Kareem outscored Hakeem.
That's the highest FG% I know of vs legends.
Wilt held Kareem to 46%.
Thurmond 47%.
Sampson, Reed, Cowens and on and on 50% something.
None of these guys are said to be better defenders than Hakeem.
Hakeem did great vs Ewing.
But Patrick Ewing is not on levek of Wilt, Kareem, Shaq offensively. David Robinson also is above Patrick Ewing.
David Robinson almost matched Hakeem head to head.
W
Bill Russell was a defensive nightmare, but, he didn't block more shots or get more rebounds than Wilt who completely demolished Bill's offensive output as well. There is a weird bias against Chamberlain. He is the best defensive player of all-time and probably the best player of all-time.
Wilt is the greatest
I agree with all, except I would have left out "probably" and kept, "the best player of all time". My opinion.
@@wmden1 I feel wilt doesn't get the respect he deserves
@@Stiggi71exactly
@@Stiggi71he really don’t
Moncrief , Michael Cooper
Mitch Richmond Joe Dumas
Dennis and scottie
Should've called this the "top 10 best BIG MAN defenders in NBA history", just sayin...
Trae Young #1 imo
kawhi and Scottie should be on this list
My Goat Starting 5
PG Curry: Will space out for the entire team
SG MJ: Self Explanatory
SF Bron: Good Shooting, Amazing Defense, High IQ, and Great Paint Presence
PF Timmy D: Can stretch out to the mid range, all time defense, nice deviation from MJ's attitude
C Bill Russell: Top 5 Defender and Rebounder, is the perfect medium between MJ's loud personality and Tim's quiet and leadership by example styles
Draymond Green?
I hate this list smh. How are you not gonna include not even one perimeter player. The wing defenders from the 2000's and up were almost just as important as rim protectors bc they had to slow down the great iso scorers. Guys like Ron artest, kawhi , Tony Allen even LeBron were all anchors
(from the perimeter) of great defenses during that span.
Bill russell
Nate thurmond
Wilt Chamberlain
Jerry West
Walt Frazier
Elmore Smith
Dennis Rodman
Hakeem
Willis Reed
Tony Allen
No rodman or Pippen or Draymond or Gary Payton or MJ?
He favorites bigs that graud the paint he doesn't have non bigs who where top perimeter defender
Rodman guys. Rodman
Excellent video. And yes Russell was the greatest defender of all time, by far. How about a defensive video on small forwards and guards?
Man every Detroit person alive says Rodman was a better defender than Wallace and you get yelled at if you think vice versa w the people who watched them😂 I can’t understand why Ben is top 10 and Rodman isn’t even a HM
Well, then those Detroit people are wrong and they don’t know the game as well as hoop venue.
where’s mj?
crazy that kobe isnt there
Duncan is twice the defender that Kevin Garnett was. What a joke.
NBA doesn’t have defense anymore,
To me, KG is really the best one. He was clamping the entire court. The only reason minnesota wasnt always a top 5 defense is because the only non bad defender he played was Billups and 1 year of Malik Sealy. Man if minnesota did a better job there...
Post kd praise + unblock me on twitter