I don't think we're good here most of the time, but wouldn't say clear fold simply because hero's line is confusing and that leads to curious decisions by our opponents. Hero calls the small flop bet, then c/r's small on a small turn bet and then checks the river. If we're villain, I can see him asking wtf and wondering how strong of a hand does hero have? For that reason alone I can't say clear fold but would be a super difficult call for sure.
I have a hard time seeing what hands we would be bluffing with on the turn, especially with such a tiny check raise. It seems like we're extremely weighted to value on the turn (especially since we called on the flop when we weren't closing the action). I think we're so heavily weighted to value on the turn that we shouldn't be check raising Q-10 on the turn. I definitely fold the river.
Gabe I like your take on how hero's flop call and turn c/r is more weighted for value, but if thats the case when hero checks river, how is it a definite river fold? I like your logic but it seems contradictory in a way to me, esp if villain is thinking the same thing. Because based on your take, hero doesn't have a flush. Unless you're saying he's either inducing or playing defense with it. @@gabrielrockman
@@TheMightyDoon He can definitely have a flush on the river. I would only be check-raising flushes on the turn: I wouldn't be doing that with two pair. I don't think it's a good move to check raise the turn for value with anything other than a flush.
This was vs me. I had A7dd and I knew it was a horrible river for me to get paid-regretted the sizing on that specific River a little, though I did go smaller (70%) then what I would have went on a non diamond , ace or Jack river. Imo the river would be a better spot and time to be going polar if the right river hits, not the turn ip mw. I don’t regret my turn or flop sizing at all really. I was new to the game/room and was hoping 2p/sets wouldn’t fold- obv smAller flush ain’t folding. wasn’t sure what he would be x/ raising turn with and then checking river with-the combo of me having the Ad and his x raise sizing.. it felt more like value then a semi bluff type hand. Felt like he was x/calling. Almost did lol Good fold David
Makes sense. I didn’t mention the Ravens hat on the call which made me think you might have been not directly local / new to room. It didn’t really matter for the hand. See you next time.
Not loving the turn x/r. Would rather just flat call, and evaluate or hope to boat up on the river. Hero will shit himself if STR flat calls the turn x/r. Anyone with the Ad in their hand can make hero's life miserable here.
Yeah there was absolutely no reason x-raise the turn. That's a no brainer call, evaluate river, and probably check call any small-medium sized bet in most cases.
I was thinking that small turn sizing by the villain was to get multi-way value with the nuts. Villain can also easily smooth call the turn check-raise knowing you are likely not doing it with sets that have the best equity against him.
I like check raising the flop for value with two pair or a set, but not with one pair. I don't like check raising the turn for value unless I have a flush. I am more likely to check raise a draw on the flop than I am on the turn, so I don't need to have many hands that I check raise for value on the turn.
I don't think the turn raise here is "clearly wrong", but I don't love it. On the other hand, perhaps it made it easier for hero to lay down on the river.
Super interesting hand. Last time I played the 10-10 at Parx they weren't doing the 20 straddle, but was I sitting across from WSOP champ Joe McKeon and asking myself wtf am I doing in this game lol. Anyway I have two questions. One is what does hero and Bart think villain puts hero on when he c/r's turn and then ch's river? Cause if I'm villain I'm thinking hero either has a flush and is going for a nasty river c/r, or he thought he was good or was making some weak move or whatever and now doesn't think he's good. Second question is how often does a block bet of slightly less than half pot of like say $500 (which is what I prefer because it follows up on our aggression) get outplayed by a big bluff here? Cause based on the hero's turn c/r, how can villain be so sure hero doesn't indeed have the flush? Great post btw. Well done.
I dont like his raise but as played I bet 400 fold to raise. Disagree with bart on a block bet being more likely to induce a raise unless it's comically small like sub 250
I totally disagree with Bart on the river. Here's why: this Ac isn't a BAD card. It's bad for the player's actual hand, but not for what he's repping. Remember, he check-raised the turn for a small sizing from out of position to two opponents. He's repping the effective nuts. The Ac on the river doesn't change that at all. A flush is never checking here. So by checking, you actually open yourself up to more bluffs. I think taking a size of like $220 is perfect. It looks like you really want to get called by AK, AJ. If you get raised, it's never going to be a bluff as played.
While watching by the River I thought the worst hand Villian could have would be AQ with ace of diamonds. He’s not betting worse for value it’s a pure bluff catcher comes down to player attributes
I don't agree with Bart's opinions on the small sizing on the turn. This often times is NOT screaming weakness but can be quite the opposite. If a person nails a baby flush only THEN do we see larger sizes because they are scared of another diamond. But here a nut flush's biggest concern is Hero folding. I'm not saying Villain shouldn't have gone larger I just see this pattern all the time. I think raising the turn is a mistake. The guy would have to be a REALLY weak player to throw out such a small sizing when he's actually concerned about the flush..
Why is the sizing on the villains bet on the turn so confusing? In hindsight, he had the nuts and a lot of players with super strong hands like to bet small to induce raises.
The announcement of how much they’re betting without putting the chips in it is usually a show strength in my experience, too. Sometimes people will announce the bed with like a question at the end. 900? That seems to frequently be a show Shrek two
Haven't seen the reveal, I think villain is going to show us the nuts a lot on the river. Turn 1/3 bet is exploitative to try to get value from players he thinks are likely drawing dead given nobody check-raised the flop. Good fold.
Never donk with two pair when flush completes. It is stupid. Eceryone whould put you on a flush and play accordinly. And also never check raise with two pair on flush board. Its a huge overplay in multiway pot
The mention of not moving your chips in when you have the nuts and going all in is a crazy read And i actually made that mistake trying to represent a bluff while holding the nut flush. Villain had bet 225 into a 200 ish pot and i had rivered the nuts while he rivered the straight I jambed and just announced all in without moving my chips forward till after about a minute of his tanking i finally moved em forward. I think i let off a tell with that Good advise there.
I have stated before, and I'll continue to say it, I HATE TWO PAIR. I play them, and they can make money. But they look prettier than they are, and are often easily beat by the straights and flushes, and Boats are not getting paid if I bink them. They're like Redheads, they're cute and all but will kill you so stay away.
This is fucking crazy. Raising on the turn is overplaying your hand, plain and simple. Flop is a dry board with a flush draw, three people continue, after flush comes in, no player should bet KK with a diamond, you are ahead most of the time you check, you have diamonds probably covered, but you are behind almost always when you get called. On the turn, hero os getting called only by hands that are ahead and the A of diamonds. After the flush comes, you have a call on the turn and check evaluate. And caller even wanting to bet for value on the river 😂 wtf is this.
@@Jermo484 no bro, this is just standart play. After a bet and a raise on the Qd. Straddle is folding everything that is not a set or a flush. Even the Ad should be folded, since you would basically need to shove and gamble. After straddle folds. Again, V is only calling with sets, flushes or Ad. And against this range you are doing extremely bad. If you just call, you can bluff catch the river against a weird play or fold and avoid losing more money to a flush or set.
I wish they explained better what they expected v's calling range to the turn check-raise was, my guess it's only AA, KK and AK that we beat? That's not a lot...
Do you agree this is a clear fold? What would the villian be bluffing with here?
It's a grudging fold. Maybe V turns KKdx into a bluff, but not often enough.
I don't think we're good here most of the time, but wouldn't say clear fold simply because hero's line is confusing and that leads to curious decisions by our opponents. Hero calls the small flop bet, then c/r's small on a small turn bet and then checks the river. If we're villain, I can see him asking wtf and wondering how strong of a hand does hero have? For that reason alone I can't say clear fold but would be a super difficult call for sure.
I have a hard time seeing what hands we would be bluffing with on the turn, especially with such a tiny check raise. It seems like we're extremely weighted to value on the turn (especially since we called on the flop when we weren't closing the action). I think we're so heavily weighted to value on the turn that we shouldn't be check raising Q-10 on the turn. I definitely fold the river.
Gabe I like your take on how hero's flop call and turn c/r is more weighted for value, but if thats the case when hero checks river, how is it a definite river fold? I like your logic but it seems contradictory in a way to me, esp if villain is thinking the same thing. Because based on your take, hero doesn't have a flush. Unless you're saying he's either inducing or playing defense with it.
@@gabrielrockman
@@TheMightyDoon He can definitely have a flush on the river. I would only be check-raising flushes on the turn: I wouldn't be doing that with two pair. I don't think it's a good move to check raise the turn for value with anything other than a flush.
This was vs me. I had A7dd and I knew it was a horrible river for me to get paid-regretted the sizing on that specific River a little, though I did go smaller (70%) then what I would have went on a non diamond , ace or Jack river. Imo the river would be a better spot and time to be going polar if the right river hits, not the turn ip mw. I don’t regret my turn or flop sizing at all really. I was new to the game/room and was hoping 2p/sets wouldn’t fold- obv smAller flush ain’t folding. wasn’t sure what he would be x/ raising turn with and then checking river with-the combo of me having the Ad and his x raise sizing.. it felt more like value then a semi bluff type hand. Felt like he was x/calling. Almost did lol Good fold David
And the vocal “900” meant nothing. I put the chips in while saying It. I said “375” on the river last night with 4 high lol
Ohhh that’s why vocals
Makes sense. I didn’t mention the Ravens hat on the call which made me think you might have been not directly local / new to room. It didn’t really matter for the hand. See you next time.
I think $600 on river would have been better
@@EllieBanks333 Yea 400-600 I like better post game thoughts
on the turn in position you normally want to bet smaller on the flush completing card for protection and deception when you have a flush
Not loving the turn x/r. Would rather just flat call, and evaluate or hope to boat up on the river. Hero will shit himself if STR flat calls the turn x/r. Anyone with the Ad in their hand can make hero's life miserable here.
Yeah there was absolutely no reason x-raise the turn. That's a no brainer call, evaluate river, and probably check call any small-medium sized bet in most cases.
I was thinking that small turn sizing by the villain was to get multi-way value with the nuts. Villain can also easily smooth call the turn check-raise knowing you are likely not doing it with sets that have the best equity against him.
Newer to taking poker seriously, and have been binge watching these 😂. Seems like 2 pair is constantly hand that gets people into sticky situations
I like check raising the flop for value with two pair or a set, but not with one pair. I don't like check raising the turn for value unless I have a flush. I am more likely to check raise a draw on the flop than I am on the turn, so I don't need to have many hands that I check raise for value on the turn.
I don't think the turn raise here is "clearly wrong", but I don't love it. On the other hand, perhaps it made it easier for hero to lay down on the river.
Either xr big on turn and shut down on river if called. Or x turn and check blast river would be better imo
Super interesting hand. Last time I played the 10-10 at Parx they weren't doing the 20 straddle, but was I sitting across from WSOP champ Joe McKeon and asking myself wtf am I doing in this game lol.
Anyway I have two questions. One is what does hero and Bart think villain puts hero on when he c/r's turn and then ch's river? Cause if I'm villain I'm thinking hero either has a flush and is going for a nasty river c/r, or he thought he was good or was making some weak move or whatever and now doesn't think he's good. Second question is how often does a block bet of slightly less than half pot of like say $500 (which is what I prefer because it follows up on our aggression) get outplayed by a big bluff here? Cause based on the hero's turn c/r, how can villain be so sure hero doesn't indeed have the flush?
Great post btw. Well done.
I dont like his raise but as played I bet 400 fold to raise. Disagree with bart on a block bet being more likely to induce a raise unless it's comically small like sub 250
I wish he would of blocked bet
@@cjwelch2414 - I might have leveled myself somehow into a really bad Bet-Call IRT
Hate the turn check raise. You are not getting better to fold or worse to call.
How is Bart cool with the turn x/r
“I do have a bit of a bigger than average donking range I’ve been working in” 😳………..🤭
I totally disagree with Bart on the river. Here's why: this Ac isn't a BAD card. It's bad for the player's actual hand, but not for what he's repping. Remember, he check-raised the turn for a small sizing from out of position to two opponents. He's repping the effective nuts. The Ac on the river doesn't change that at all. A flush is never checking here. So by checking, you actually open yourself up to more bluffs. I think taking a size of like $220 is perfect. It looks like you really want to get called by AK, AJ. If you get raised, it's never going to be a bluff as played.
While watching by the River I thought the worst hand Villian could have would be AQ with ace of diamonds. He’s not betting worse for value it’s a pure bluff catcher comes down to player attributes
I don't agree with Bart's opinions on the small sizing on the turn. This often times is NOT screaming weakness but can be quite the opposite. If a person nails a baby flush only THEN do we see larger sizes because they are scared of another diamond. But here a nut flush's biggest concern is Hero folding. I'm not saying Villain shouldn't have gone larger I just see this pattern all the time. I think raising the turn is a mistake. The guy would have to be a REALLY weak player to throw out such a small sizing when he's actually concerned about the flush..
Why is the sizing on the villains bet on the turn so confusing? In hindsight, he had the nuts and a lot of players with super strong hands like to bet small to induce raises.
The announcement of how much they’re betting without putting the chips in it is usually a show strength in my experience, too. Sometimes people will announce the bed with like a question at the end. 900?
That seems to frequently be a show Shrek two
The small bet from villian on turn looked like a "i hit flush and wanna build pot up without scaring em off" bet.
I‘d love to see KdKx as bluff
A10 off with Ad
Agreed. Flush is possible but that is more likely imo, setting his price on the turn
Clear fold here
I hate no reveal calls 😭
Haven't seen the reveal, I think villain is going to show us the nuts a lot on the river. Turn 1/3 bet is exploitative to try to get value from players he thinks are likely drawing dead given nobody check-raised the flop. Good fold.
Your right. Had A7dd
Never donk with two pair when flush completes. It is stupid. Eceryone whould put you on a flush and play accordinly.
And also never check raise with two pair on flush board. Its a huge overplay in multiway pot
Kevin had A ♦️ J ❤️
Can u define a donk raise?
Lead betting into the pre-flop or previous street’s bettor
@@nickb.189 Thats a donk bet, the question is what is a donk raise
Donk raise is not a thing lol
@@nicholi2789 I was thinking this they are referring to a donk bet lol
A donk raise is defined as: Anytime I raise
I hate the no reveal hands
I had A7dd
He had a bluff
The only guy I’ve ever heard pronounce PLO as “ploh” lol
The mention of not moving your chips in when you have the nuts and going all in is a crazy read
And i actually made that mistake trying to represent a bluff while holding the nut flush.
Villain had bet 225 into a 200 ish pot and i had rivered the nuts while he rivered the straight
I jambed and just announced all in without moving my chips forward till after about a minute of his tanking i finally moved em forward. I think i let off a tell with that
Good advise there.
I have stated before, and I'll continue to say it, I HATE TWO PAIR.
I play them, and they can make money. But they look prettier than they are, and are often easily beat by the straights and flushes, and Boats are not getting paid if I bink them.
They're like Redheads, they're cute and all but will kill you so stay away.
AK off with Ad
think it checks back.
This is fucking crazy. Raising on the turn is overplaying your hand, plain and simple. Flop is a dry board with a flush draw, three people continue, after flush comes in, no player should bet KK with a diamond, you are ahead most of the time you check, you have diamonds probably covered, but you are behind almost always when you get called. On the turn, hero os getting called only by hands that are ahead and the A of diamonds. After the flush comes, you have a call on the turn and check evaluate.
And caller even wanting to bet for value on the river 😂 wtf is this.
You're way too afraid of flushes.
@@Jermo484 no bro, this is just standart play. After a bet and a raise on the Qd. Straddle is folding everything that is not a set or a flush. Even the Ad should be folded, since you would basically need to shove and gamble.
After straddle folds. Again, V is only calling with sets, flushes or Ad. And against this range you are doing extremely bad. If you just call, you can bluff catch the river against a weird play or fold and avoid losing more money to a flush or set.
@@pedro.gandra yikes. Please play in my games.
@@Jermo484 out of arguments?
I wish they explained better what they expected v's calling range to the turn check-raise was, my guess it's only AA, KK and AK that we beat? That's not a lot...
The villain had the nuts becuase he announced his river bet sizing.