The fact so many ppl took Mackie’s comment DELIBERATELY out of context is just ridiculous. Evans practically said the same thing back in 2011 and sure, social media wasn’t as powerful 14 yrs ago, no one batted an eye. Even in The First Avenger, Erskin straight up tells Steve, the serum isn’t important or special, it’s what the men were giving it to do with it and if they’re truly good men at heart to even deserve it. It had literally nothing to do with “America” outside of the fact it was anti-Nazi propaganda lmfao
Yeah no one batted an eye because a blonde, beautiful white man said it lmao Nobody likes it when someone cries racism regarding these controversies but it's practically inescapable with this movie. You have to be deluded not to see the double standard being perpetuated in the media reactions to Mackie vs. Evans
Facts. Did they seriously forget that Chris Evan’s as Steve Rogers says “I don’t like bullies. I don’t care where they come from.” in his first film ? It’s the same energy as Anthony’s quote.
Captain America literally drops the mantle of Captain America like 10 different times in the comics because he disagrees with the United States. He literally states right before he becomes The Captain, that he represents what America should be, not America. He is not loyal to the government or the country but to the people. The people mad about this have never read comics or know anything about comics and should be laughed at relentlessly
@@johnmccarthy-y5z that's an interesting argument. The government actually represents a personal subjection of the people's will. For example, if only 2/3rds of a population vote, then there is a subjective version of what "We The People" want, of that vocal majority.
did people miss how chris evans’ captain america took off a piece of american memorabilia from his suit every time the government fucked up in the previous movie? took off the star in the middle of his chest, got rid of the american flag shield, lost the helmet with the big “A” on it… and then brought it all back in endgame, not to represent america, but the interests of the universe and all of humanity? this has always been part of cap’s character, at least in the mcu. he’s highly critical of the united states, and reps the red white and blue for the good of humanity instead of just america. “i don’t like bullies, i don’t care where they come from” - the first avenger
Lots of people have a very surface level understanding of who Captain America is in the movies and the comics. They see his name has "America" in it and he's dressed in red white and blue and just assume the rest.
@@johnmccarthy-y5z perhaps “america” means more to cap than just the country. perhaps to him, it’s about fighting for the little guy, freeing the captives, living for a future utopia. thats what i gather about cap from the movies and the comics. he believes in what he was told america was before he was frozen under the ice. “captain america” as in “captain of these values”, rather than “captain of this nation”
@@clam6254 yeah cap always seemed like someone who symbolized the romantic ideals of what America stands for. The ideals that he stands for and that he believes the country should stand for, but he's hardly a flag-waving (kind of ironically) nationalist. He represents the platonic ideal of American values, not the country itself.
For a lot of Americans, if a black man makes comments about the state of things in America (see Colin Kaepernick), then it’s a problem that he isn’t showing enough fealty to the country. If a white man (like Evans) does something similar through his character, then it’s no big deal or not something they notice.
Yeah, but it's just a rebranding. Politically correct eventually became SJW, now it's 'woke' and, most bizarrely, DEI. It's the same thing, and it's always been the same thing.
Tbh, back in my day (late 80s - early 2000s) woke used to be a positive word black folk would say to each other as a reminder to be aware of the hidden challenges and oppositions around them smh now it’s been co-opted to be a slur against media with cultural diversity
The right wing media system is very canny. They purposefully bastardize progressive language to corrupt its meaning, steal it from the left, and give it to the right as a vector of attack. The same thing happened with critical race theory and diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives. Right wing media just lies about what they mean--what it means to study CRT or to implement DEI initiatives--just to get conservatives tilting at dark-coloured windmills.
The comically adverse reaction to Anthony Mackie not only offering a tame stance on what Captain America is, but also a factually true one about the ideology around the character, really solidifies that media literacy has never been at a lower low than this decade. Also people are absolutely looking at the Netflix shows with rose-tinted glasses when they believe they had no filler. It was actually my biggest concern when DDBA was originally set to be a giant 18-episode first season because the older shows always have two or three episodes where literally nothing of consequence happens, and they usually fill that out with drawn-out flashbacks
I disagree with it being factually true about the character's ideology. Cap has everything to do with America. From his Invaders days to the 60s revival and 80s-90s run. He's fundamentally tied to America like Superman, the Human Torch and Namor.
@ProjektTakudumbest take ever. Captain America is the American as an ideal not as it is. Mackie stating fact and not mention the many time Steve himself abandon the title whenever America itself fail to hold on that the ideal. People being up in arms over some that even Chris Evan’s statement a decade ago prove that they’re nothing but reactionary fools
"media literacy has never been at a lower low than this decade" Sad that this is so true. If anything, Mackie really understands Cap more than the rabid so-called 'fans'. One should not be proud of their country because it is their country, they should be proud of their country because their country does good things. Captain America should exemplify the good things that America does, not everything American - jeez, that character would be a horrific pastiche, wouldn't it.
@ProjektTaku Captain America doesn't represent America as it is, and whether it's Steve or Sam, the comics have always illustrated that he will go against the interests of the country when they clash with his moral perspective as a person, such as the time in when Steve gave up the mantle entirely and became Nomad, or being a wanted fugitive during Civil War. Captain America stood for the America that people idealize. The America that is fantasized as living up to its promise of freedom and equity for all people, untethered by the agendas and motives of any one authoritative power. The America that exists today is a country that Captain America would be positively repulsed by.
Anybody upset by Anthony Mackie's comments didn't understand any of the Captain America movies. The US, and what they want Cap to do, is shown to be questionable in each of the 3 movies, and Cap has to grapple with that.
I read (just on Reddit, so not sure how true this is) that the first comment made by the Daredevil showrunner was about the old script that got scrapped for Born Again, and not about the Netflix show. Which makes a LOT more sense to me
Ever since comics Captain America was pulled out of the ice, he’s never been a representative of modern America. He’s a pillar of virtue that people from any walk of life should strive to be. That he wears the Stars and Stripes is just meant to get Americans in particular to realize that… at least, it should.
I think the showrunner was referring to the old version of Born Again. When they didn’t have a showrunner and had Matt not in the suit until episode 4. I don’t think he was talking about Netflix Daredevil cuz that show had action nearly every episode.
The VA in the new spiderman show claiming he didn't want it to be "woke" was a bit concerning, I'm still watching but there are a lot of weird things coming out PS. I agree, worst guy was elected, but the country has to stay strong through it.
I feel like there are two very different versions of woke and this is why it’s being misinterpreted. One can seem super forced and honestly jarring, while the other can be good natural representation without it affecting story, tone or seeming like absolute pandering.
@@chinclucker I also think calling the first one "woke" seriously undermines the meaning of that word, and as you say, the two meanings get conflated under one word so that any media with visible diversity can get tied in with poorly made media with visible diversity to make it seem like it's all bad. Unless that media with visible diversity is universally acclaimed and loved, in which case it's actually not woke because uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
The fact that they reinstalled the netflix-verse as canon to bail themselves out of their losing streak, decided to make a new daredevil show since they new how popular it was, and then thought it was a good idea to criticize the original is mind boggling.
I have to disagree with you that Mackie could have avoided controversy. I think a certain type of person would have found something to get mad about even if he’d kept silent.
With regards to the Daredevil but (and I can’t get into much details but TRUST ME when I say I KNOW), that quote was taken out of context. The showrunner was referring to EARLIER ITERATIONS of D:BA - before the rewrites. No one was talking about the Netflix Daredevil shows.
Nah, you're talking out your ass - and are wrong no matter who you think you know. I *loved* the Netflix DD show, but that doesn't change how much screen time was wasted on characters sitting around discussing the meaning of heroism and other such. That is navel gazing.
To the people who don't know, it's clarified in the actual SFX article that he was talking about the earlier version of Born Again, not the Netflix show. This quote was taken out of context by a bunch of "news" sites and framed incorrectly as if it targeted the Netflix show when the original article it came from specifies it is not.
Ok hang on. Yes, the quote from the Daredevil showrunner is really weird. And it sounds really bad. But, I’m pretty sure when he says “the earlier show” he was referring to the original plan for Born Again, not the Netflix series.
I agree that “woke” doesn’t work as a word. What is woke supposed to even denote? Because it just seems it fluctuates depending on the usefulness of in an argument.
From what I can tell it originally meant that a creator interjected politically ideology into a show or movie in a way that was “preachy” or contrived. While you could maybe make an argument for some stuff like the infamous Velma or something, the word “woke” has become nothing but another internet political buzzword, in fact it’s honestly become more drowned out than words like “problematic” were because it’s completely lost all meaning outside of people not wanting to engage their brains or…. Just hating minorities (which is the case for a lot of alt right grifters).
Honestly as far as I can tell you’ve kinda hit the nail on the head - it doesn’t have a meaning beyond “the enemy” to a lot of people. It’s a buzzword, a dog whistle, something else, idk. It’s a stand in for actually thinking about/detailing what it is the speaker is against. It’s an excuse to not look deeper.
3:21 let's not forget that the fictional Captain America basically said the same thing when he became Nomad in 1973. And the story that led up to it was the original Secret Empire story where the leader "Number One" was the sitting President Richard Nixon! who said "High *_political_* office didn't *satisfy* me! My power was still too constrained by *_legalities!_* I gambled on a *_coup_* to gain me the power I craved -- and it appears that my gamble has finally *_failed_* !" and then he quit being Captain America AGAIN in 1987 when he became "The Captain" in the "Captain America No More!" storyline.
"At first, I was afraid that it was going to be terrible and WOKE, bit it wasn't! It had really good writing!" = "I was scared the dialogue was going to be like they did on Riverdale, where teenagers get unnaturally soapboxy and preachy for no reason other than to drive the already obvious point home to the viewers." Hmph! Yeah, I can see that.
I completely agree with what Anthony Mackie said. At least from how the MCU portrays him, Captain America was always about doing what’s right, regardless of what any government might do to try to suppress freedoms or people.
The Daredevil comment about navel gazing was about Born Again before it was reworked You know the version of the show that was canned because it had Daredevil only suit up by the 4th episode and was court room drama centered
Hey, I noticed in your more recent videos and this is a sort of small thing but Nico is Bi, not a lesbian. Just thought it may be worth mentioning! Love your videos!
While true in the comics, in the show she has only shown same sex attraction. Some folk are a tad wary of this as it might lead to the 'bi-erasure' trope, but we'll see how the character progresses
I think when he said woke and annoying he meant coming off the same way the Acolyte did. Forcing political and social ideologies onto the story where it doesn’t make any sense. That was terribly annoying to the fanbase.
It's like the people that are complaining about Anthony Mackie haven't watched the Winter soldier or civil war. Also Chris Evans quotes about the character are pretty much exactly the same
Same reason James Bond movies are popular outside of Britain. Believe it or not, most moviegoers around the world can still enjoy and empathize with fictional characters different from them.
Anthony Mackie is right. Captain America has always been a superhero that stands for integrity and freedom - not a superhero who just fights for one country and people. As for the Spider man actor, the issue with the word "woke" is that it can mean so many different things. "Woke" is a generalization of a lot of concepts and some of those meanings are pretty problematic. That fact is a lot of people use wokeness to describe media that just happen to have minorities in them. The complaints about "wokeness" also contribute to a dangerous misconception that media shouldn't be challenging to the audience or have something important to say. It's really weird that the Daredevil showrunner is talking about the good elements of the previous show in a negative light.
I think a lot of people replace the word pandering with the word woke. we can all agree that sometimes when something is trying to be woke it comes off as unimaginative and tasteless. It’s a thing for no one cause it doesn’t understand the themes it’s trying to convey. Unfortunately a lot of people also don’t understand the themes so they put it all in one basket.
“Obnoxiously preachy” should be the new “woke”, because I am so sick and tired of seeing/hearing the word “woke” being used unironically 😤 Also, that interview with the Daredevil show writer is the epitome of “Talking out of your ass”, like WTF?!?!
You see, obnoxiously preachy is actually a criticism. That doesn’t work for them because they can just complain that women and black people and gay people are in it and get the same if not more views/likes/retweets/whatever the fuck other vapid metric we need.
To be fair, it certainly doesn’t help that one of the first things Mackie’s Captain America did was defend a terrorist and say everyone else was wrong.
Cap isn't representative of America he's representative of what America should strive for. Same with Superman. The backlash to what Mackie said is silly from some and downright racist from others end of discussion.
Nando is arguing that Mackie (and Steve in the comics) consider “America” to be a meaningless word. (Sorry, I can’t do timestamps, but the comment is at 4:00)
@@johnmccarthy-y5zalmost but not quite. He said specifically that America doesn’t hold a place of special meaning “to captain America.” Like, outside of the obvious origin connection, he’s saying that some ambiguous “America” isn’t a value that Cap looks to. The values that Cap holds may also represent the ideal America, but that this is more coincidence than causal from a values standpoint.
Captain America stands for the noble values that are tied into the foundations of America. Aspiring towards freedom from oppression, true equality of opportunity, justice and rule of law, accepting and embracing and, when it's needed, protecting people who are different from you are some of the most important ideals on which America was founded, and that is what the flag on the costume represents, not the US government. And sometimes that means conflicting with an American government, society or identity that fails to live up to those values.
Daredevil at its worst was stick delivering an exposition dump about five heroes saving the world from the evil undead ninja clan, that was clunky and pretty bad, and it gets worst because it's a defenders setup
The Showrunner for Born Again: 'You know that thing? That thing you liked about the first series? 'The Good Writing'? Yeah, I like, totally didn't do that. That takes talent, bruh. Super hard. No thanks.'
Daredevil’s producer was referring to the previous version of the show before they did a total creative overhaul (the one where foggy and Karen were killed offscreen)
Captain America is about more than just the identity "America." But Captain America also IS about "America," he can never not be about America and still be Captain America. It's "yes and," he is about America, _and_ all the positive, idealistic aspects of what America represents in the world. I don't blame Mackie though, a lot of Cap writers don't get this either.
Important note Nando: the first Daredevil quote is taken entirely out of context and intentionally misrepresents what he was saying. When he said "The earlier show" he was not referring to the Netflix show. He was instead referring to the version of Born Again that was scrapped. When you read the SFX article it makes it very obvious that he's talking about the version of Born Again that no longer exists and NOT the Netflix series.
@@thenandocut All that said, thanks for continuing to make really good content! You've become one of my favorite creators over the last year. Just thought it was important to specify since I saw the same articles framing it wrong you did, then when I read the SFX article I was like "Hey wait a minute..."
When people say woke they mean badly written. Why wouldn't he just saying badly written? I mean if its badly written and not woke, its still badly written. So why single out the supposed wokeness. Its a boring statement for him to make. He may be a good voice actor but I judge the man's intelligence now.
Yeah, the word “woke” is just such a vapid placeholder. It so clearly doesn’t have a consistent usage and it’s just plopped in almost as an excuse for the speaker to not take the time to find a better word or phrasing to use.
Today my Dad told me he didn’t want to watch Captain America because he heard that Anthony Mackie said that the character “didn’t even like America.” I told him no, and explained the context. Luckily I could help out my dad. But it sucks that there are a ton of people that heard that, made assumptions, and now they hate Mackie for because he slipped up and misspoke in an interview.
The rage that will flow through my blood if I watch Daredevil Born Again and it ends up being a generic grounded sauceless season truly will rival that of the Hulk
I am almost convinced the woke spiderman line was a deliberate line Disney was trying to feed to win over people who outrage over any “woke” material that they’ve had before. To try and get the anti-woke mobs guard down enough to give the show a shot. It just backfired horribly
I believe that, what the spidey VA was trying to say is that he's glad that the show has a diverse cast that feels genuine and doesn't feel like cheap pandering. Dunno, i might be wrong.
I’m pretty sure that the Daredevil showrunner WASN’T talking about the Netflix series, he was talking about the earlier iteration of Born Again before it got reworked, and was misinterpreted by the various outlets reporting on it
I loved the thumbnail! Nice commentary and points too. I believe it is a little difficult to stfu in an interview, where you feel things are all about you.
Y'all don't remember the comic where Captain America joins the Viet Cong because he disagreed with what the American military was doing in the Vietnam War?
So here’s a complaint about Penguin. And you kinda reference it. Why was that show set in a DC setting? There’s no heroes or comics in it! It’s not Penguin. It’s Generic Crime Drama. A good generic crime drama but not DC.
Comicbook Twitter was very sad this week. Spiderman, Captain, Daredevil, and Superman were all getting hate. Luckily, Spiderman show exceeded everyone's expectations, so it's not all sadm
Lest we forget, "woke" is an African American Vernacular English term. It was co-opted and now is basically a stand-in for "this doesn't have white men in it" or "it's got blacks and women." Etymology of words and terms matter!
@@bazzfromthebackground3696I mean it is a pretty well recognized term in linguistic circles. Ya know, the closest thing to sciencing language in general.
The difference is that in American crime dramas, they try to humanize or make you sympathize with the crime organization. Like you kind of root for the corleons, for nino brown, or for tony Montana. In noir you rpot less for the criminals and just kind of pity the main character (because you can see that it will probably end badly for them) So I’m expecting this season of daredevil to make kingpin more of a duel protagonist and less an out and out antagonist as he can sometimes be. Gonna show they good parts of being both in charge of crime and in charge of law in the biggest city in the world.
Just an update but the YFNHSM showrunner said Thames misspoke about the woke stuff (I still dont trust that guy but alright) and also the full article about Daredevil came out and he was clearly talking about the pre-retooling version of Born Again, not the Netflix show (thank God)
If “Captain America” has nothing to do with America, then why take the name. Why was it such a significant moment for Steve to offer the title to Sam? Shouldn’t Sam have just turned it down to maintain his independence and integrity? If the character is meant to represent universal values, then why doesn’t Marvel just rename him Captain Humanity? (I know. $$$$$$$) I don’t think Mackie is at fault here. He was being interviewed by a foreign publication and he was clumsily trying to explain the movie’s worldwide appeal. It was “The First Avenger” all over again. But everybody here trying to separate the character from the country is misguided. It’s in his NAME!!
I can’t wait for all the totally unbiased people who like totally wanted cap to be John walker aka the government stooge who beat a person surrendering
RE: 'Woke' I feel like this has become something young dudes just say now. (And yep, if he's 30 he's still a young 'un.) They hear their friends say it about stuff they don't like and they just parrot it without thinking. Even watching the average nerdrotic or drinker video, you wouldn't know what they were talking about if your ears weren't pealed for the dog whistles. If he could even articulate what he meant, I think it might be something like, "More concerned with getting a message across than telling a good story," because that's the veil most CHUDTubers use to make their nonsense sound at least superficially reasonable. They act like it's not the message they have a problem with (spoiler: it is), but the way it's delivered ("They're beating us over the head with it."), or that it's prioritized over other creative concerns. He might also have been talking about the use of buzzword-laden dialogue -- privilege, gaslighting, triggered, etc. -- which I'll admit that even I, a lifelong liberal, find annoying at times.
We also have to remember: there are people outside of the USA that fans of Captain America, and ARENT American born. He definitely means more than just AmuricA.
i, personally, find that the dialouge in YFNSM can feel stilted or overly awkward- but that's not because of the contents of their dialouge, more the style of writing. similar to what nando said, it is so necessary for a show about young people to have a diverse cast because that is the world we live in. it's so dumb for thames to have used that word that has become so warped from it's original meaning that it's lost meaning- "woke" most of the time is whatever it needs to be for people who feel threatened by others who aren't a mirror image of themselves. living is frustrating man.
Revisiting the fight scenes in daredevil is fun every time I rewatch that show and I sit through those long drawn out talking scenes. I take something away from it because my life experiences changed since the last time I have more empathy or understanding or hatred for a character and their actions disappointing the new daredevil show will only be good for some mind, listening action
I find it crazy that they would compare themselves with The Penguin which is just excelent. And im not saying it against Daredevil, I hope it will be great. But what a weird statement that was: "rooted in the here and now" 😂
i get how/why some people took offense to his statement (and took it way out of context) but i actually wholeheartedly agree with his statement. Captain America to me stands for more than just americans
I think there ARE legitimate criticisms to be made about the pacing of the Netflix (and even some of the Disney Plus) Marvel shows. With the former I think it's a result of trying to stretch six episodes worth of story into 13; with the latter, stretching a TV-movie's worth into six episodes. Budget and lack of training and choreography time for the action sequences also comes into play, I think.
The fact so many ppl took Mackie’s comment DELIBERATELY out of context is just ridiculous. Evans practically said the same thing back in 2011 and sure, social media wasn’t as powerful 14 yrs ago, no one batted an eye. Even in The First Avenger, Erskin straight up tells Steve, the serum isn’t important or special, it’s what the men were giving it to do with it and if they’re truly good men at heart to even deserve it. It had literally nothing to do with “America” outside of the fact it was anti-Nazi propaganda lmfao
Also it should’ve been taken as a good thing. It shows an understanding of the character.
Yeah no one batted an eye because a blonde, beautiful white man said it lmao
Nobody likes it when someone cries racism regarding these controversies but it's practically inescapable with this movie. You have to be deluded not to see the double standard being perpetuated in the media reactions to Mackie vs. Evans
I think Nando is also putting words in Anthony Mackies mouth.
Unfortunately American does not equal anti Nazi anymore. Ridiculous as it may be
Facts. Did they seriously forget that Chris Evan’s as Steve Rogers says “I don’t like bullies. I don’t care where they come from.” in his first film ? It’s the same energy as Anthony’s quote.
Captain America literally drops the mantle of Captain America like 10 different times in the comics because he disagrees with the United States. He literally states right before he becomes The Captain, that he represents what America should be, not America. He is not loyal to the government or the country but to the people. The people mad about this have never read comics or know anything about comics and should be laughed at relentlessly
Hey man you're one of my favorite iceberg RUclipsrs keep up the good work
Doesn’t the government represent the people though?
guys its pigpen!!
@@johnmccarthy-y5z it should. but the american government does a terrible job at it.
@@johnmccarthy-y5z that's an interesting argument. The government actually represents a personal subjection of the people's will. For example, if only 2/3rds of a population vote, then there is a subjective version of what "We The People" want, of that vocal majority.
did people miss how chris evans’ captain america took off a piece of american memorabilia from his suit every time the government fucked up in the previous movie? took off the star in the middle of his chest, got rid of the american flag shield, lost the helmet with the big “A” on it… and then brought it all back in endgame, not to represent america, but the interests of the universe and all of humanity? this has always been part of cap’s character, at least in the mcu. he’s highly critical of the united states, and reps the red white and blue for the good of humanity instead of just america. “i don’t like bullies, i don’t care where they come from” - the first avenger
Lots of people have a very surface level understanding of who Captain America is in the movies and the comics. They see his name has "America" in it and he's dressed in red white and blue and just assume the rest.
If he did not want to represent America, why keep the name?
@@johnmccarthy-y5z perhaps “america” means more to cap than just the country. perhaps to him, it’s about fighting for the little guy, freeing the captives, living for a future utopia. thats what i gather about cap from the movies and the comics. he believes in what he was told america was before he was frozen under the ice. “captain america” as in “captain of these values”, rather than “captain of this nation”
@@clam6254 yeah cap always seemed like someone who symbolized the romantic ideals of what America stands for. The ideals that he stands for and that he believes the country should stand for, but he's hardly a flag-waving (kind of ironically) nationalist.
He represents the platonic ideal of American values, not the country itself.
For a lot of Americans, if a black man makes comments about the state of things in America (see Colin Kaepernick), then it’s a problem that he isn’t showing enough fealty to the country. If a white man (like Evans) does something similar through his character, then it’s no big deal or not something they notice.
People using "woke" and "DEI" constantly to describe themes or people they don't approve of is getting exhausting
Buckle up. It's going to be a very tiring 4 years... 😮💨
its literally used as a slur it's crazy
@@danyg4063 lol
Yeah, but it's just a rebranding. Politically correct eventually became SJW, now it's 'woke' and, most bizarrely, DEI. It's the same thing, and it's always been the same thing.
strap in, we're in for at least 4 more years of it....ugh
The "Oh, I don't have to take you seriously." vibe that you get from people who just pepper in a "woke" insult to something? Can confirm, lol.
Tbh, back in my day (late 80s - early 2000s) woke used to be a positive word black folk would say to each other as a reminder to be aware of the hidden challenges and oppositions around them smh now it’s been co-opted to be a slur against media with cultural diversity
The right wing media system is very canny. They purposefully bastardize progressive language to corrupt its meaning, steal it from the left, and give it to the right as a vector of attack.
The same thing happened with critical race theory and diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives. Right wing media just lies about what they mean--what it means to study CRT or to implement DEI initiatives--just to get conservatives tilting at dark-coloured windmills.
Another POC term white people adopted and ruined. 🫠
The comically adverse reaction to Anthony Mackie not only offering a tame stance on what Captain America is, but also a factually true one about the ideology around the character, really solidifies that media literacy has never been at a lower low than this decade.
Also people are absolutely looking at the Netflix shows with rose-tinted glasses when they believe they had no filler. It was actually my biggest concern when DDBA was originally set to be a giant 18-episode first season because the older shows always have two or three episodes where literally nothing of consequence happens, and they usually fill that out with drawn-out flashbacks
I disagree with it being factually true about the character's ideology. Cap has everything to do with America. From his Invaders days to the 60s revival and 80s-90s run. He's fundamentally tied to America like Superman, the Human Torch and Namor.
@ProjektTakudumbest take ever. Captain America is the American as an ideal not as it is. Mackie stating fact and not mention the many time Steve himself abandon the title whenever America itself fail to hold on that the ideal. People being up in arms over some that even Chris Evan’s statement a decade ago prove that they’re nothing but reactionary fools
"media literacy has never been at a lower low than this decade" Sad that this is so true. If anything, Mackie really understands Cap more than the rabid so-called 'fans'. One should not be proud of their country because it is their country, they should be proud of their country because their country does good things. Captain America should exemplify the good things that America does, not everything American - jeez, that character would be a horrific pastiche, wouldn't it.
@ProjektTakuso is Namor also known as The Submariner
@ProjektTaku Captain America doesn't represent America as it is, and whether it's Steve or Sam, the comics have always illustrated that he will go against the interests of the country when they clash with his moral perspective as a person, such as the time in when Steve gave up the mantle entirely and became Nomad, or being a wanted fugitive during Civil War. Captain America stood for the America that people idealize. The America that is fantasized as living up to its promise of freedom and equity for all people, untethered by the agendas and motives of any one authoritative power. The America that exists today is a country that Captain America would be positively repulsed by.
you know things are getting out of hand when Nando basically starts telling people about "Shut the Fuck Up Friday" lmaooooo
Anybody upset by Anthony Mackie's comments didn't understand any of the Captain America movies. The US, and what they want Cap to do, is shown to be questionable in each of the 3 movies, and Cap has to grapple with that.
“America’s worst guy is president again”
Such a simple and beautiful way to sum it up lol
And if anyone gives him shit about it, we don’t claim them, they are not welcome here
I read (just on Reddit, so not sure how true this is) that the first comment made by the Daredevil showrunner was about the old script that got scrapped for Born Again, and not about the Netflix show. Which makes a LOT more sense to me
I saw that too. I think that makes a lot more sense
Ever since comics Captain America was pulled out of the ice, he’s never been a representative of modern America. He’s a pillar of virtue that people from any walk of life should strive to be. That he wears the Stars and Stripes is just meant to get Americans in particular to realize that… at least, it should.
I think the showrunner was referring to the old version of Born Again. When they didn’t have a showrunner and had Matt not in the suit until episode 4. I don’t think he was talking about Netflix Daredevil cuz that show had action nearly every episode.
Yup this was recently confirmed to be what he meant. Unfortunately articles left out that context, probably for clicks.
OHHHH that would make A LOT more sense
@@julianxamo7835it officially is
Hey man I’m early enough that you may read this. You are hands down my favorite content creator for Marvel and Movies.
I appreciate it!
💯
The VA in the new spiderman show claiming he didn't want it to be "woke" was a bit concerning, I'm still watching but there are a lot of weird things coming out
PS. I agree, worst guy was elected, but the country has to stay strong through it.
I feel like there are two very different versions of woke and this is why it’s being misinterpreted.
One can seem super forced and honestly jarring, while the other can be good natural representation without it affecting story, tone or seeming like absolute pandering.
@@maker6153 The thing is, most people who use woke as a negative don't differentiate between those two things, because it's all bad to them.
@@chinclucker I also think calling the first one "woke" seriously undermines the meaning of that word, and as you say, the two meanings get conflated under one word so that any media with visible diversity can get tied in with poorly made media with visible diversity to make it seem like it's all bad. Unless that media with visible diversity is universally acclaimed and loved, in which case it's actually not woke because uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Captain America punched Hitler. Never forget that. Some people in power now would bow down to Hitler.
The fact that they reinstalled the netflix-verse as canon to bail themselves out of their losing streak, decided to make a new daredevil show since they new how popular it was, and then thought it was a good idea to criticize the original is mind boggling.
I have to disagree with you that Mackie could have avoided controversy. I think a certain type of person would have found something to get mad about even if he’d kept silent.
'It's not a 'Western'. Ok?! It's a movie set in Oklahoma in 1876, with cowboys and trains and s***. That's like...super different.'
With regards to the Daredevil but (and I can’t get into much details but TRUST ME when I say I KNOW), that quote was taken out of context.
The showrunner was referring to EARLIER ITERATIONS of D:BA - before the rewrites.
No one was talking about the Netflix Daredevil shows.
Hello showrunner of Daredevil
okay mr. internet stranger with 0 credentials to back up what he's saying, it makes me feel better to believe you so i will
Nah, you're talking out your ass - and are wrong no matter who you think you know. I *loved* the Netflix DD show, but that doesn't change how much screen time was wasted on characters sitting around discussing the meaning of heroism and other such. That is navel gazing.
To the people who don't know, it's clarified in the actual SFX article that he was talking about the earlier version of Born Again, not the Netflix show. This quote was taken out of context by a bunch of "news" sites and framed incorrectly as if it targeted the Netflix show when the original article it came from specifies it is not.
@@MaybeAnnatar oohhhh gotcha! what site was the original article from?
Just another reminder that Nico is bi, not a lesbian. 💜
Ok hang on. Yes, the quote from the Daredevil showrunner is really weird. And it sounds really bad. But, I’m pretty sure when he says “the earlier show” he was referring to the original plan for Born Again, not the Netflix series.
I agree that “woke” doesn’t work as a word. What is woke supposed to even denote? Because it just seems it fluctuates depending on the usefulness of in an argument.
From what I can tell it originally meant that a creator interjected politically ideology into a show or movie in a way that was “preachy” or contrived. While you could maybe make an argument for some stuff like the infamous Velma or something, the word “woke” has become nothing but another internet political buzzword, in fact it’s honestly become more drowned out than words like “problematic” were because it’s completely lost all meaning outside of people not wanting to engage their brains or…. Just hating minorities (which is the case for a lot of alt right grifters).
@@evanrutledge-sz4yothat is not the origin.
Honestly as far as I can tell you’ve kinda hit the nail on the head - it doesn’t have a meaning beyond “the enemy” to a lot of people. It’s a buzzword, a dog whistle, something else, idk. It’s a stand in for actually thinking about/detailing what it is the speaker is against. It’s an excuse to not look deeper.
3:21 let's not forget that the fictional Captain America basically said the same thing when he became Nomad in 1973. And the story that led up to it was the original Secret Empire story where the leader "Number One" was the sitting President Richard Nixon! who said "High *_political_* office didn't *satisfy* me! My power was still too constrained by *_legalities!_* I gambled on a *_coup_* to gain me the power I craved -- and it appears that my gamble has finally *_failed_* !" and then he quit being Captain America AGAIN in 1987 when he became "The Captain" in the "Captain America No More!" storyline.
I so glad you said that you don't give a shit about being political
"At first, I was afraid that it was going to be terrible and WOKE, bit it wasn't! It had really good writing!" = "I was scared the dialogue was going to be like they did on Riverdale, where teenagers get unnaturally soapboxy and preachy for no reason other than to drive the already obvious point home to the viewers."
Hmph! Yeah, I can see that.
You know the video is gonna be good when Nando is just like fuck it I'm gonna say fuck a lot
I completely agree with what Anthony Mackie said. At least from how the MCU portrays him, Captain America was always about doing what’s right, regardless of what any government might do to try to suppress freedoms or people.
The Daredevil comment about navel gazing was about Born Again before it was reworked
You know the version of the show that was canned because it had Daredevil only suit up by the 4th episode and was court room drama centered
That's what I thought, too.
Not a commentary on ABC's show at all
Hey, I noticed in your more recent videos and this is a sort of small thing but Nico is Bi, not a lesbian. Just thought it may be worth mentioning! Love your videos!
Yeah it isnt as mentioned but wasn't she interested in pearl and Lonnie
While true in the comics, in the show she has only shown same sex attraction. Some folk are a tad wary of this as it might lead to the 'bi-erasure' trope, but we'll see how the character progresses
@RickCarleton she mentioned liking Lonnie also
@@lightdarksoul2097 Ah? I must have missed that one.
I think when he said woke and annoying he meant coming off the same way the Acolyte did. Forcing political and social ideologies onto the story where it doesn’t make any sense. That was terribly annoying to the fanbase.
It's like the people that are complaining about Anthony Mackie haven't watched the Winter soldier or civil war. Also Chris Evans quotes about the character are pretty much exactly the same
Love the title, and I couldn't agree more with your take on the Daredevil piece.
To the people who think Captain America *only* symbolises America, how do you think his films are still successful outside of your country?
Same reason James Bond movies are popular outside of Britain. Believe it or not, most moviegoers around the world can still enjoy and empathize with fictional characters different from them.
@johnmccarthy-y5z that's exactly what I'm saying!
Captain America is more than just America
The people who say Capt America is "for america" have never read a comic and the _literal countless times he _*_fights_*_ the US._
Anthony Mackie is right. Captain America has always been a superhero that stands for integrity and freedom - not a superhero who just fights for one country and people. As for the Spider man actor, the issue with the word "woke" is that it can mean so many different things. "Woke" is a generalization of a lot of concepts and some of those meanings are pretty problematic. That fact is a lot of people use wokeness to describe media that just happen to have minorities in them. The complaints about "wokeness" also contribute to a dangerous misconception that media shouldn't be challenging to the audience or have something important to say. It's really weird that the Daredevil showrunner is talking about the good elements of the previous show in a negative light.
What Mackie said is the literal premise of Winter Soldier.
Wasn’t SHIELD an international organization? (Can’t trust those one-world government types.😏
@@johnmccarthy-y5zno they're US based in the MCU.
I think a lot of people replace the word pandering with the word woke. we can all agree that sometimes when something is trying to be woke it comes off as unimaginative and tasteless. It’s a thing for no one cause it doesn’t understand the themes it’s trying to convey. Unfortunately a lot of people also don’t understand the themes so they put it all in one basket.
2 minutes in and we already have one of those "You said you like pancakes, that must mean you hate waffles!!!!!!!"
They want the show with the immortal mystical ninja cults that perform resurrections to be more grounded.
“Obnoxiously preachy” should be the new “woke”, because I am so sick and tired of seeing/hearing the word “woke” being used unironically 😤 Also, that interview with the Daredevil show writer is the epitome of “Talking out of your ass”, like WTF?!?!
You see, obnoxiously preachy is actually a criticism. That doesn’t work for them because they can just complain that women and black people and gay people are in it and get the same if not more views/likes/retweets/whatever the fuck other vapid metric we need.
The Daredevil interview was out of context. He was talking about previous versions of the new show not the Netflix one
Yes the show about a blind man doing backflips is more grounded than a show about a crimeboss who limps around and is mean to everyone
To be fair, it certainly doesn’t help that one of the first things Mackie’s Captain America did was defend a terrorist and say everyone else was wrong.
Cap isn't representative of America he's representative of what America should strive for. Same with Superman.
The backlash to what Mackie said is silly from some and downright racist from others end of discussion.
Nando is arguing that Mackie (and Steve in the comics) consider “America” to be a meaningless word. (Sorry, I can’t do timestamps, but the comment is at 4:00)
@@johnmccarthy-y5zalmost but not quite. He said specifically that America doesn’t hold a place of special meaning “to captain America.”
Like, outside of the obvious origin connection, he’s saying that some ambiguous “America” isn’t a value that Cap looks to. The values that Cap holds may also represent the ideal America, but that this is more coincidence than causal from a values standpoint.
Captain America stands for the noble values that are tied into the foundations of America. Aspiring towards freedom from oppression, true equality of opportunity, justice and rule of law, accepting and embracing and, when it's needed, protecting people who are different from you are some of the most important ideals on which America was founded, and that is what the flag on the costume represents, not the US government. And sometimes that means conflicting with an American government, society or identity that fails to live up to those values.
Damn good time to not be quiet or curtail criticism of institutions and media. Proud to be a patron, Nando.
Keep up the fantastic work!
Hit the nail on the HEAD with people misusing the word “woke”
Daredevil at its worst was stick delivering an exposition dump about five heroes saving the world from the evil undead ninja clan, that was clunky and pretty bad, and it gets worst because it's a defenders setup
There really is no one who does better commentary over comic and movie news/events than Nando. Always love watching your vids
The Showrunner for Born Again: 'You know that thing? That thing you liked about the first series? 'The Good Writing'? Yeah, I like, totally didn't do that. That takes talent, bruh. Super hard. No thanks.'
Daredevil’s producer was referring to the previous version of the show before they did a total creative overhaul (the one where foggy and Karen were killed offscreen)
Captain America is about more than just the identity "America." But Captain America also IS about "America," he can never not be about America and still be Captain America. It's "yes and," he is about America, _and_ all the positive, idealistic aspects of what America represents in the world. I don't blame Mackie though, a lot of Cap writers don't get this either.
Important note Nando: the first Daredevil quote is taken entirely out of context and intentionally misrepresents what he was saying. When he said "The earlier show" he was not referring to the Netflix show. He was instead referring to the version of Born Again that was scrapped. When you read the SFX article it makes it very obvious that he's talking about the version of Born Again that no longer exists and NOT the Netflix series.
Oooooooh that makes sense
@@thenandocut All that said, thanks for continuing to make really good content! You've become one of my favorite creators over the last year. Just thought it was important to specify since I saw the same articles framing it wrong you did, then when I read the SFX article I was like "Hey wait a minute..."
People are mad at Anthony Mackie for being right, and it's quite telling I think.
When people say woke they mean badly written. Why wouldn't he just saying badly written? I mean if its badly written and not woke, its still badly written. So why single out the supposed wokeness. Its a boring statement for him to make. He may be a good voice actor but I judge the man's intelligence now.
It's because he doesn't just mean "badly written." He means "badly written AND morally condescending."
Yeah, the word “woke” is just such a vapid placeholder. It so clearly doesn’t have a consistent usage and it’s just plopped in almost as an excuse for the speaker to not take the time to find a better word or phrasing to use.
Today my Dad told me he didn’t want to watch Captain America because he heard that Anthony Mackie said that the character “didn’t even like America.” I told him no, and explained the context.
Luckily I could help out my dad. But it sucks that there are a ton of people that heard that, made assumptions, and now they hate Mackie for because he slipped up and misspoke in an interview.
Man you’ve been busy this week, I’m glad you’re keeping up to date with everything going on!! Love your vids man!
Another great video! Love your measured responses to these, and other, issues.
Mackie is right, and any crybaby that is mad about what he had to say can pound sand
The rage that will flow through my blood if I watch Daredevil Born Again and it ends up being a generic grounded sauceless season truly will rival that of the Hulk
I am almost convinced the woke spiderman line was a deliberate line Disney was trying to feed to win over people who outrage over any “woke” material that they’ve had before. To try and get the anti-woke mobs guard down enough to give the show a shot.
It just backfired horribly
Loved Bernthal with a buzz-cut. That was scary Punisher.
I believe that, what the spidey VA was trying to say is that he's glad that the show has a diverse cast that feels genuine and doesn't feel like cheap pandering. Dunno, i might be wrong.
I’m pretty sure that the Daredevil showrunner WASN’T talking about the Netflix series, he was talking about the earlier iteration of Born Again before it got reworked, and was misinterpreted by the various outlets reporting on it
I loved the thumbnail! Nice commentary and points too. I believe it is a little difficult to stfu in an interview, where you feel things are all about you.
The Penguin didnt even have a trick Umbrella in The Penguin!
Y'all don't remember the comic where Captain America joins the Viet Cong because he disagreed with what the American military was doing in the Vietnam War?
Spider-man Life Story right?
@@JohnnyRetro64 Chip Zdarsky the madlad
That daredevil born again showrunner said was about the earlier version aka the pre overhaul version, not the netflix version
I think they felt pressure to be as good as Penguin
So here’s a complaint about Penguin. And you kinda reference it. Why was that show set in a DC setting? There’s no heroes or comics in it! It’s not Penguin. It’s Generic Crime Drama. A good generic crime drama but not DC.
Comicbook Twitter was very sad this week. Spiderman, Captain, Daredevil, and Superman were all getting hate. Luckily, Spiderman show exceeded everyone's expectations, so it's not all sadm
Lest we forget, "woke" is an African American Vernacular English term. It was co-opted and now is basically a stand-in for "this doesn't have white men in it" or "it's got blacks and women." Etymology of words and terms matter!
Dawg said AAVE like its scientific 😂
@@bazzfromthebackground3696I mean it is a pretty well recognized term in linguistic circles. Ya know, the closest thing to sciencing language in general.
I actually like Mackie’s Cap, I hope it’s good!
The difference is that in American crime dramas, they try to humanize or make you sympathize with the crime organization. Like you kind of root for the corleons, for nino brown, or for tony Montana. In noir you rpot less for the criminals and just kind of pity the main character (because you can see that it will probably end badly for them)
So I’m expecting this season of daredevil to make kingpin more of a duel protagonist and less an out and out antagonist as he can sometimes be. Gonna show they good parts of being both in charge of crime and in charge of law in the biggest city in the world.
Mackie rolled a 1 on the charisma check lol. Same thing happened with him wanted a Black Widow Romance.
Can we talk about Blake and Ryan Reynolds' controversy now?!?
Great video Nando but I have to know, where did you find that image on your desktop or at least what is the artist’s name!!
Thank you Nacho, your takes are spot on.
Just an update but the YFNHSM showrunner said Thames misspoke about the woke stuff (I still dont trust that guy but alright) and also the full article about Daredevil came out and he was clearly talking about the pre-retooling version of Born Again, not the Netflix show (thank God)
I just ignore people complaining about the smallest things. There are people who are still upset over something Brie Larson said in 2018.
I'm worried about everything man
As someone who of the Netflix Marvel shows only really likes Jessica Jones, the showrunner's comments made me more interested in the new Daredevil.
If “Captain America” has nothing to do with America, then why take the name. Why was it such a significant moment for Steve to offer the title to Sam? Shouldn’t Sam have just turned it down to maintain his independence and integrity?
If the character is meant to represent universal values, then why doesn’t Marvel just rename him Captain Humanity? (I know. $$$$$$$)
I don’t think Mackie is at fault here. He was being interviewed by a foreign publication and he was clumsily trying to explain the movie’s worldwide appeal. It was “The First Avenger” all over again. But everybody here trying to separate the character from the country is misguided. It’s in his NAME!!
Except for all that junk he does/says in the comics. Those don't count.
I wish Harrison Ford was the president rn
You are a breath of fresh air!
I can’t wait for all the totally unbiased people who like totally wanted cap to be John walker aka the government stooge who beat a person surrendering
7:27 I RESENT THAT!! slander is spoken… in print, it’s libel.
Peoppe need to find something to do nowadays
The people that get upset about this stuff were always out to get upset about stuff.
Wait, is the background music a lowfi Not Like Us?
This is more Nando content in 48 hours than I can handle (yah I know one of the drops was a compilation video about DCEU)
It's insane to me whenever something or someone in superhero media gets in trouble for being too woke when superheroes are fundamentally woke
RE: 'Woke'
I feel like this has become something young dudes just say now. (And yep, if he's 30 he's still a young 'un.) They hear their friends say it about stuff they don't like and they just parrot it without thinking. Even watching the average nerdrotic or drinker video, you wouldn't know what they were talking about if your ears weren't pealed for the dog whistles.
If he could even articulate what he meant, I think it might be something like, "More concerned with getting a message across than telling a good story," because that's the veil most CHUDTubers use to make their nonsense sound at least superficially reasonable. They act like it's not the message they have a problem with (spoiler: it is), but the way it's delivered ("They're beating us over the head with it."), or that it's prioritized over other creative concerns. He might also have been talking about the use of buzzword-laden dialogue -- privilege, gaslighting, triggered, etc. -- which I'll admit that even I, a lifelong liberal, find annoying at times.
We also have to remember: there are people outside of the USA that fans of Captain America, and ARENT American born. He definitely means more than just AmuricA.
i, personally, find that the dialouge in YFNSM can feel stilted or overly awkward- but that's not because of the contents of their dialouge, more the style of writing. similar to what nando said, it is so necessary for a show about young people to have a diverse cast because that is the world we live in. it's so dumb for thames to have used that word that has become so warped from it's original meaning that it's lost meaning- "woke" most of the time is whatever it needs to be for people who feel threatened by others who aren't a mirror image of themselves. living is frustrating man.
Revisiting the fight scenes in daredevil is fun every time I rewatch that show and I sit through those long drawn out talking scenes. I take something away from it because my life experiences changed since the last time I have more empathy or understanding or hatred for a character and their actions disappointing the new daredevil show will only be good for some mind, listening action
I find it crazy that they would compare themselves with The Penguin which is just excelent. And im not saying it against Daredevil, I hope it will be great. But what a weird statement that was: "rooted in the here and now" 😂
Thoughts on the leak of the Kang dynasty draft?
i get how/why some people took offense to his statement (and took it way out of context) but i actually wholeheartedly agree with his statement. Captain America to me stands for more than just americans
Never a bad take from you Nando
I think there ARE legitimate criticisms to be made about the pacing of the Netflix (and even some of the Disney Plus) Marvel shows. With the former I think it's a result of trying to stretch six episodes worth of story into 13; with the latter, stretching a TV-movie's worth into six episodes. Budget and lack of training and choreography time for the action sequences also comes into play, I think.
Coming out comparing to penguin is as dumb as the rock saying the Oppenheimer thing