I kind of find it funny that VOY has three afterlife episodes with Neelix seeing nothing, Janeway dealing with soul eating demons, and Belenna goes to Valhalla.
I mean, those are the eternities they deserves honestly. Janeway already sold her soul along with the souls of everyone on Omicron Theta, Neelix deserves nothing, and gets nothing, and Belenna deserves to be punished by having her mother be right. Especially about her choice in men. He is a weak P'takh! I don't think he's even bathed once in the blood of his enemies!
@@Here_is_Waldo I mean, Jean-Luc was dead for a few minutes, and he saw Q, along with an alternate timeline. There's also the fact that Neelix has done so many bad things over the years, not all of them on accident, that he kind of doesn't deserve to go anywhere.
@@Here_is_Waldo My main gripe with Pulaski is they wanted her to be Bones… but she doesn’t have Bones charm and instead bullies people. Like Spock and Bones could barb back at each other, but Data is NOT Spock, he’s an android who is very literal and has no malice or ill intent. So her ‘barbs’ with Data instead came off as bullying to outright bigotry. She DID improve… but not by much, and in a better season she’d probably do more, but I mostly know her as a dick. If ya like her, that’s awesome. I will say though, I did love the idea of Bones liking Data when they met.
Hi, I'm the guy who originally commissioned this review. Thanks again for doing it. I wanted to cover this because I'm interested in stories in which people go to Hell. In fact, it's been almost 10 years since the original release.
I love how Janeway pulls the same “I’m not going to let you turn this into a debate about (thing that it clearly is)” with the Doctor in ‘Flesh and Blood’ irt the Hirogen’s holograms.
Problem with the comparison with Belonna's situation and Data's, Worf's, and Kirk's situations, is that their presence wasn't vital to the survival of others. Voyager is stranded all the way out into the Delta quadrant, with each crew member that dies, the less likely it is that everyone will be able to make it home. Everyone's skills are needed to ensure the ship will even be able to make the journey home. Chakotay's rituals should've fallen under the same scrutiny that Belonna's situation does here. Survival takes precedent over personal risk. As for the parisian squares, Janeway should've forbidden that game as soon as they learned they were stranded. Or, y'know, she allows it because suffering amuses her.
I mean, she is in the job only because she beat down the only other contender for it, AND even with a tricorder she couldn't identify manure. I think Voyager would be better off without her, save that Tom Paris would be even harder to control. That IS why they kept her, after all. Without Tom, the man of a million talents, the ship would fall apart, so they got him hooked up with a woman who barely uses her brain so they could more easily use him.
@SageofStars See, the problem with that argument is that it acknowledges other Voyager episodes and attempts to establish a consistent narrative. This is Voyager. Growth and expansion mean as much to this show as the ship's security. You need to break down all the complexities a character might have into their bare essentials to match what this show might consider, and then break it down every further for good measure. Belonna=engineer. Engineer fix thing. Engineer good. Losing engineer bad.
@@chimeratheo1855 Ah, the flaws of Voyager...gods this should have been so much better. It was the Flagship show of the network, the big guns, and yet, knowing that, the guys in charge handicapped it at every turn. At least when Cartoon Network does that, it's because they WANT the show or programming block to fail...sometimes for even dumber reasons(I'm too good for 'cartoons' and hate them, so the audience must as well, lets get some live action programs on here).
-Now, I see how Neelix has gotten everybody to eat his food, despite the infections, fleas, and hedgehog hair. He threatens them. The threat actually sounded like something that Cartoon Janeway would say to Harry ... when he is behaving (don't ask about when he isn't). -It doesn't matter how long Paris' tongue really is, Torres would stretch it to fit around her waist. -I didn't know you could refuse anything - let alone a required mark - on the Barge of the Dead going to Gre'Thor. I mean maybe if they were going to Sto-vo-kor. -They probably tried to send the first Klingon to Gre'Thor, but he saw the style of eternal punishments and laughed. So, they had to use a punishment that fit the personality. Who wants to be a chauffeur and driver? The boredom - from himself, and sass of the passengers is its own hell. Not every punishment works on everybody. Some people can deal with pain, but not everybody can deal with boredom! -The squeaking eel things were another form of punishment, not death. -Janeway doesn't approve of Torres' religious beliefs because don't surround Torres worshiping Janeway. -"I wish I could floss my brain to get the bits of stupid out." Thank you, Chuck, for making me laugh at what Cartoon Janeway says. Mostly she is funny. Sometimes she is makes funny boring! -Her mother isn't lying, Torres is cheating and that makes the odds of succeeding slim. A real mother would take the dishonor so that her daughter would live. This narcissistic mother sees that her daughter doesn't care enough about her to do it properly. "If you cared you would do you take my place where you deserve to be or you would find another way, but you wouldn't cheat! Because cheating is dishonorable, too!" (I do agree, in certain situations, that cheating is dishonorable.) -Don't take Gre'Thor advice from Neelix, you might end up in the Ninth level, when you were actually only assigned to the Third Level! -Animating dead replicated food. That makes sense as to why it looked so weird. Thank you for the clarification.
Maybe Kortar Himself, since there were no gods left to facilitate the process. Or more likely a God's ability to curse is not intrinsically linked to their existence or nonexistance.
To me the more pressing question is why he’s cursed at all? At Jadzia and Worf’s wedding the story of the Klingons killing their gods is told as a triumphant tale. About how even the gods themselves couldn’t stand before two Klingon hearts beating together. If Klingons disdain their gods you think Kortar would be a hero and not a reviled figure.
Remember that this is Klingon belief -- the species who have time-altering crystals in their homeworld's moon. Duty doesn't need anything as piddly as a god to enforce it. Duty is absolutely everything to a Klingon. Kortar could have gone whistling away merrily, saw a random shiny thing on the ground, picked it up -- bam! He saw himself in the future steering the Ship of the Dishonored Dead and, since he'd picked up the time crystal, he was going to have to do it no matter what. It's interesting that Strange New Worlds showed that Pike could have made different choices, but he ultimately won't because the crystal showed him the best future for everyone else. Assuming the legends were true, and so was my fanfic above about a time crystal showing him his future, Kortar could have ignored his vision. Only duty and honor kept him on that path. Yeah, that sounds about right for a Klingon story.
Devils Advocate, Torres’ situation is not quite the same as Kirk rock climbing or the other examples you listed. For one she’s not doing a sport or activity that risks death, she’s *planning to die* and hope she can be resuscitated. That’s a whole other level of risk. Second, most of those examples were in the Alpha Quadrant. Here if Torres dies they lose their chief engineer. I think forbidding your officers from doing extreme sports is a bit more acceptable when you’re 75 years from being able to hire a replacement.
Inline Skates by Funny FUX is the song, I don't know anything more about it. Pretty sure just getting that information probably was enough to summon some sort of supernatural entity after me.
(6:08) I have to know what this clip is from. At least so that future visitors know what the heck it is, too. Yeah. We'll go with "helping future visitors figure out what the significance is of what they are seeing". 😉
There is precedent for her view point. Picard lectured Worf regarding this because he used it to kill Duras. However, having the ship's resources used to do what she's requesting also is reasonable. If she wants it, she would need to provide her own resources to do so. It's not unreasonable to preserve the ship's resources.
Unique circumstances dictate otherwise. Torres was irreplaceable to Janeway. She couldn't just contact Starfleet Command and request a replacement chief engineer. Letting Torres kill herself would adversely affect the entire crew. That supersedes her "religious beliefs".
The whole point of religions being allowed unchecked in a pluralistic society is that to some religious practices: killing does not equal murder even if it is against someone's will, because it's socially accepted as NOT being murder. It's considered a form of worship, and when a society is vastly made up of members of that religion it is accepted as a religious duty even with the unwilling loss of life. The conflict comes from another society does consider it murder, and when they're minority, half, a plurality, or the majority of their own people compared to the other, there are different takes on who's right under the law. I might consider child sacrifice murder in either society, but that doesn't mean it's illegal just because I want it to be, and it doesn't mean that I agree with everyone else.
The cycle is soon complete, soon youtube shall fall and we shall rise to Dailymotion to begin the eternal reupload once again! Semper Excubia Brothers!
Star Trek is sometimes so scared to let characters be openly spiritual. It's a very militant application of the whole "outgrowing our old hatreds and superstitions" thing. As if the Star Trek's utopian future would somehow get rid of religion without that turning it into a terrible dystopia
I always assumed that people in the Federation were ALLOWED to be religious- nobody suggests that Bajor shouldn't be permitted into the Federation on account of being spiritual, after all. I would however assume that almost all Federation citizens are atheistic, simply because they've embraced a more rational and enlightened philosophy, and religion is a fundamentally anti-rational philosophy in most cases. Even if they met God, the UFP would probably just categorize Him as a particularly powerful energy being that should be studied, not something to worship. The Vulcans do have some weird pseudo-spiritualism surrounding Katras and stuff, but then the existence of Vulcan souls and telepathy is a proven scientific phenomena. Not to mention, the fact that poverty has been entirely eliminated in the UFP, along with most crime, disease, and other hardships, means that people would have less cause to turn to religion. Even in most wealthy countries today, irreligion has been unmistakably rising for the last hundred years or so. Places like the Klingon Empire and Bajor are understandably more religious, both for cultural reasons, and because they are much harsher places to live than Earth. The Federation seems perfectly tolerant of these different belief systems, and willing to accommodate them to some extent, even if most 24th century humans wouldn't understand (besides Sisko).
@@dswrabkln4900 I think you fundamentally misunderstand why people are religious in the modern day. It's not just because shit's hard and they're plugging their ears, it's because it's cultural or traditional or just because it means something to them. Religion isn't a crutch people lean on, it's just part of their families and communities. I don't think entire ethnicities are just going to give that up because they're supposed to be "better" than that now. Ask Jews or Muslims to "evolve past" their religions for the sake of the future and see how that goes.
@dswrabkln4900 Problem with your theory: Vulcans are a very logical people that also happen to have religious ceremonies. They were meant to be the extraterrestrial equivalent of Reform Jews.
I agree, and it’s one of the ways Roddenberry’s vision is both impossible and self defeating. Impossible because we see in real life that people in secularized civilizations such as the rock-bottom worker morale of the Soviet Union and the plunging birth rates of contemporary Western Europe that Godless people are not motivated to do the basics, let alone build an interstellar paradise. Self-defeating because Roddenberry emphasized the need to “celebrate differences” but the absence of religion would make civilization more homogenous.
I was disappointed with the episode. The Klingons spend a considerable amount of time talking about what happens once you're dead, then it turns out to be not that interesting.
![Quando Rondo - Life Goes On [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eIf3fhMXAow/mqdefault.jpg)
I kind of find it funny that VOY has three afterlife episodes with Neelix seeing nothing, Janeway dealing with soul eating demons, and Belenna goes to Valhalla.
I mean, those are the eternities they deserves honestly. Janeway already sold her soul along with the souls of everyone on Omicron Theta, Neelix deserves nothing, and gets nothing, and Belenna deserves to be punished by having her mother be right. Especially about her choice in men. He is a weak P'takh! I don't think he's even bathed once in the blood of his enemies!
Sadly, not a one of them was worthy of seeing the koala . . .
@@SingularityOrbit Few are truly worthy of gazing upon that perfect visage, and basking in that all knowing smile.
Neelix was the only one who actually died, so safe to assume that his was the real version of death.
@@Here_is_Waldo I mean, Jean-Luc was dead for a few minutes, and he saw Q, along with an alternate timeline. There's also the fact that Neelix has done so many bad things over the years, not all of them on accident, that he kind of doesn't deserve to go anywhere.
Klingon Hell is Neelix as your guide and chef, Pulaski as your doctor, Archer as the boat captain, and the only person you can talk too is Elnor.
I'd take Pulaski as my doctor over Phlox any day. She objects to wanton genocide through negligence. Phlox argues it's the moral thing to do.
I always liked Pulaski. She was similar to Bones, and felt more like a real doctor who had seen some shit than Crusher ever did.
@@Here_is_Waldo My main gripe with Pulaski is they wanted her to be Bones… but she doesn’t have Bones charm and instead bullies people. Like Spock and Bones could barb back at each other, but Data is NOT Spock, he’s an android who is very literal and has no malice or ill intent. So her ‘barbs’ with Data instead came off as bullying to outright bigotry. She DID improve… but not by much, and in a better season she’d probably do more, but I mostly know her as a dick.
If ya like her, that’s awesome. I will say though, I did love the idea of Bones liking Data when they met.
The Hate Boat, soon will be making another run..."
And with the Pahkled as the navigator/engineers of the boat?
Hi, I'm the guy who originally commissioned this review. Thanks again for doing it. I wanted to cover this because I'm interested in stories in which people go to Hell. In fact, it's been almost 10 years since the original release.
One of my favorite Torres episodes to be sure.
Also love how this review is a time capsule in it of itself because of that video game montage.
Idk, that montage seemed more like an early internet time capsule than one for 2014 when it was first released
I love how Janeway pulls the same “I’m not going to let you turn this into a debate about (thing that it clearly is)” with the Doctor in ‘Flesh and Blood’ irt the Hirogen’s holograms.
Neelix showing up in hell never fails to get a chuckle out of me.
i seriously love your janeway impersonation. i genuinely would pay to watch you dub a few episodes of voyager with crazy janeway!!!
Voyager Abridged?
Problem with the comparison with Belonna's situation and Data's, Worf's, and Kirk's situations, is that their presence wasn't vital to the survival of others.
Voyager is stranded all the way out into the Delta quadrant, with each crew member that dies, the less likely it is that everyone will be able to make it home. Everyone's skills are needed to ensure the ship will even be able to make the journey home.
Chakotay's rituals should've fallen under the same scrutiny that Belonna's situation does here. Survival takes precedent over personal risk.
As for the parisian squares, Janeway should've forbidden that game as soon as they learned they were stranded. Or, y'know, she allows it because suffering amuses her.
I mean, she is in the job only because she beat down the only other contender for it, AND even with a tricorder she couldn't identify manure. I think Voyager would be better off without her, save that Tom Paris would be even harder to control. That IS why they kept her, after all. Without Tom, the man of a million talents, the ship would fall apart, so they got him hooked up with a woman who barely uses her brain so they could more easily use him.
@SageofStars See, the problem with that argument is that it acknowledges other Voyager episodes and attempts to establish a consistent narrative. This is Voyager. Growth and expansion mean as much to this show as the ship's security. You need to break down all the complexities a character might have into their bare essentials to match what this show might consider, and then break it down every further for good measure. Belonna=engineer. Engineer fix thing. Engineer good. Losing engineer bad.
@@chimeratheo1855 Ah, the flaws of Voyager...gods this should have been so much better. It was the Flagship show of the network, the big guns, and yet, knowing that, the guys in charge handicapped it at every turn. At least when Cartoon Network does that, it's because they WANT the show or programming block to fail...sometimes for even dumber reasons(I'm too good for 'cartoons' and hate them, so the audience must as well, lets get some live action programs on here).
-Now, I see how Neelix has gotten everybody to eat his food, despite the infections, fleas, and hedgehog hair. He threatens them. The threat actually sounded like something that Cartoon Janeway would say to Harry ... when he is behaving (don't ask about when he isn't).
-It doesn't matter how long Paris' tongue really is, Torres would stretch it to fit around her waist.
-I didn't know you could refuse anything - let alone a required mark - on the Barge of the Dead going to Gre'Thor. I mean maybe if they were going to Sto-vo-kor.
-They probably tried to send the first Klingon to Gre'Thor, but he saw the style of eternal punishments and laughed. So, they had to use a punishment that fit the personality. Who wants to be a chauffeur and driver? The boredom - from himself, and sass of the passengers is its own hell. Not every punishment works on everybody. Some people can deal with pain, but not everybody can deal with boredom!
-The squeaking eel things were another form of punishment, not death.
-Janeway doesn't approve of Torres' religious beliefs because don't surround Torres worshiping Janeway.
-"I wish I could floss my brain to get the bits of stupid out." Thank you, Chuck, for making me laugh at what Cartoon Janeway says. Mostly she is funny. Sometimes she is makes funny boring!
-Her mother isn't lying, Torres is cheating and that makes the odds of succeeding slim. A real mother would take the dishonor so that her daughter would live. This narcissistic mother sees that her daughter doesn't care enough about her to do it properly. "If you cared you would do you take my place where you deserve to be or you would find another way, but you wouldn't cheat! Because cheating is dishonorable, too!" (I do agree, in certain situations, that cheating is dishonorable.)
-Don't take Gre'Thor advice from Neelix, you might end up in the Ninth level, when you were actually only assigned to the Third Level!
-Animating dead replicated food. That makes sense as to why it looked so weird. Thank you for the clarification.
Evil Janeway's tirade against Torres made me laugh out loud, especially the crack about her forehead. 🤣
Torres to her mother: "Go to Heaven, you old bat."
7:05 If Kortar killed all the gods, then who was left to curse him to captain the ship of the dead for eternity?
Maybe Kortar Himself, since there were no gods left to facilitate the process. Or more likely a God's ability to curse is not intrinsically linked to their existence or nonexistance.
To me the more pressing question is why he’s cursed at all? At Jadzia and Worf’s wedding the story of the Klingons killing their gods is told as a triumphant tale. About how even the gods themselves couldn’t stand before two Klingon hearts beating together. If Klingons disdain their gods you think Kortar would be a hero and not a reviled figure.
Remember that this is Klingon belief -- the species who have time-altering crystals in their homeworld's moon. Duty doesn't need anything as piddly as a god to enforce it. Duty is absolutely everything to a Klingon. Kortar could have gone whistling away merrily, saw a random shiny thing on the ground, picked it up -- bam! He saw himself in the future steering the Ship of the Dishonored Dead and, since he'd picked up the time crystal, he was going to have to do it no matter what.
It's interesting that Strange New Worlds showed that Pike could have made different choices, but he ultimately won't because the crystal showed him the best future for everyone else. Assuming the legends were true, and so was my fanfic above about a time crystal showing him his future, Kortar could have ignored his vision. Only duty and honor kept him on that path. Yeah, that sounds about right for a Klingon story.
@starwarsnerd100: The two hearts were Kahless and Lukara. Kortar doesn't factor into that story.
One of the better Torres episodes...and it's thanks to a DS9 episode and a hand-me-downs Worf story. Huh, I guess that will do
"If she wants to break the mold, she needs Worf's hand me down." Ouch
Neelix is absolutely the tour guide of hell.
Devils Advocate, Torres’ situation is not quite the same as Kirk rock climbing or the other examples you listed. For one she’s not doing a sport or activity that risks death, she’s *planning to die* and hope she can be resuscitated. That’s a whole other level of risk. Second, most of those examples were in the Alpha Quadrant. Here if Torres dies they lose their chief engineer. I think forbidding your officers from doing extreme sports is a bit more acceptable when you’re 75 years from being able to hire a replacement.
What amv is that? I can’t understand the lyrics well enough to look for it.
Inline Skates by Funny FUX is the song, I don't know anything more about it. Pretty sure just getting that information probably was enough to summon some sort of supernatural entity after me.
(6:08) I have to know what this clip is from. At least so that future visitors know what the heck it is, too. Yeah. We'll go with "helping future visitors figure out what the significance is of what they are seeing". 😉
Suicide 100% affects other people, as any death does.
There is precedent for her view point. Picard lectured Worf regarding this because he used it to kill Duras. However, having the ship's resources used to do what she's requesting also is reasonable. If she wants it, she would need to provide her own resources to do so. It's not unreasonable to preserve the ship's resources.
You depiction of Grithor is.... something all right.
Unique circumstances dictate otherwise. Torres was irreplaceable to Janeway. She couldn't just contact Starfleet Command and request a replacement chief engineer. Letting Torres kill herself would adversely affect the entire crew. That supersedes her "religious beliefs".
I LOVE THAT SONG!!!! 😆😆😆
@11:50 these moments in his reviews where he creates a new version of janeway dialogue is the thing that keeps me going in life.
I forgot about the inline skates song.
Great episode
6:11
Ok, I looked away to grab a biscuit what the Hell XD,
The whole point of religions being allowed unchecked in a pluralistic society is that to some religious practices: killing does not equal murder even if it is against someone's will, because it's socially accepted as NOT being murder. It's considered a form of worship, and when a society is vastly made up of members of that religion it is accepted as a religious duty even with the unwilling loss of life.
The conflict comes from another society does consider it murder, and when they're minority, half, a plurality, or the majority of their own people compared to the other, there are different takes on who's right under the law. I might consider child sacrifice murder in either society, but that doesn't mean it's illegal just because I want it to be, and it doesn't mean that I agree with everyone else.
Dont we find out that her mom is alive during the vifeo call episodes of season 7
Maybe it was all an allegory and her mom was never in any real danger? Or maybe her mom was also having a near-death experience, who knows?
Silly dragon! Consistency is for good shows. This is Voyager.
How many more of these reuploads are left?
*sigh* far too many...
The cycle is soon complete, soon youtube shall fall and we shall rise to Dailymotion to begin the eternal reupload once again! Semper Excubia Brothers!
I don't mind it, get to watch everything again and pretend it is new.
good times.
15:17 we have such sights to show you.
Star Trek is sometimes so scared to let characters be openly spiritual. It's a very militant application of the whole "outgrowing our old hatreds and superstitions" thing. As if the Star Trek's utopian future would somehow get rid of religion without that turning it into a terrible dystopia
I always assumed that people in the Federation were ALLOWED to be religious- nobody suggests that Bajor shouldn't be permitted into the Federation on account of being spiritual, after all. I would however assume that almost all Federation citizens are atheistic, simply because they've embraced a more rational and enlightened philosophy, and religion is a fundamentally anti-rational philosophy in most cases. Even if they met God, the UFP would probably just categorize Him as a particularly powerful energy being that should be studied, not something to worship. The Vulcans do have some weird pseudo-spiritualism surrounding Katras and stuff, but then the existence of Vulcan souls and telepathy is a proven scientific phenomena.
Not to mention, the fact that poverty has been entirely eliminated in the UFP, along with most crime, disease, and other hardships, means that people would have less cause to turn to religion. Even in most wealthy countries today, irreligion has been unmistakably rising for the last hundred years or so.
Places like the Klingon Empire and Bajor are understandably more religious, both for cultural reasons, and because they are much harsher places to live than Earth. The Federation seems perfectly tolerant of these different belief systems, and willing to accommodate them to some extent, even if most 24th century humans wouldn't understand (besides Sisko).
@@dswrabkln4900 I think you fundamentally misunderstand why people are religious in the modern day. It's not just because shit's hard and they're plugging their ears, it's because it's cultural or traditional or just because it means something to them. Religion isn't a crutch people lean on, it's just part of their families and communities. I don't think entire ethnicities are just going to give that up because they're supposed to be "better" than that now.
Ask Jews or Muslims to "evolve past" their religions for the sake of the future and see how that goes.
@dswrabkln4900 Problem with your theory: Vulcans are a very logical people that also happen to have religious ceremonies. They were meant to be the extraterrestrial equivalent of Reform Jews.
I agree, and it’s one of the ways Roddenberry’s vision is both impossible and self defeating. Impossible because we see in real life that people in secularized civilizations such as the rock-bottom worker morale of the Soviet Union and the plunging birth rates of contemporary Western Europe that Godless people are not motivated to do the basics, let alone build an interstellar paradise. Self-defeating because Roddenberry emphasized the need to “celebrate differences” but the absence of religion would make civilization more homogenous.
Thanks, Chuck. I didn't enjoy this episode, but then, I'm not religious.
I was disappointed with the episode. The Klingons spend a considerable amount of time talking about what happens once you're dead, then it turns out to be not that interesting.
The Klingons are utter bores and utter boars...but don't tell 'em I said that.
He's a little too good at the abusive captain shtick...
algorithm comment
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