I've never realized that retro-prog in reality is the nemesis of the progressive idea, until now. Also, I Love the anti-quantization and anti-autotune gospel. Let's hope that that more and more prog-listeners will crave human sounding productions in the future, so that artists are forced to follow along in order to stay relevant. You've made me think about prog in a different way with this series! Thanks, Andy.
Totally agree with everything you discussed. Especially your comments on anti-quantization and anti-autotune. Repetitive perfection bores/numbs the brain. Alex was right to fight for anti-quantized drums. Natural selection/Evolution crafted a brain that pays attention to fluxes/imperfections in the environment. I marginally disagree with your first statement about retro-prog. I like bands like Wobbler. Wobbler reminds many of Yes/Gentle Giant/ect. I don't think retro is a sin, if the music sounds fresh, exciting, and genius. I also enjoy modern prog bands who push boundries....as long as it sounds good to my ears. Farts in 13/12 time played in counterpoint to a manic rap/bluegrass/opera boundary pushing composition may be prog...but I don't like it. Yet, I believe. "Live and let live. Different strokes for different folks."
I realised doing this I don't mind the whole retro prog thing, what I really hate about most modern music, including most modern prog, is the over production, and that manifests itself in loads of different ways. I think people were more honest about how they created their music the music scene would be more healthier...
Yes, you are both right, there's nothing wrong with retro prog. Some of the retro bands truly manage to carve out their own little cave in the prog mountain, and explore all the unique twists and turns that lies within it.
Your insight on prog and fusion and jazz and pop is second to none. Now lets stop explaining what this music is and get into the music itself. Thanks for all the great episodes.
Excellent series, thoroughly enjoyed it from a combined musician and academic perspective. Could list numerous points, but key takeaway is that what is commonly known as "prog" is really part of the continuing story of progressive music. Pink Floyd's role throughout the history of progressive music is quite fascinating also. Cheers from the USA.
I've been listening to progressive rock since 1972 (starting with Fragile, of course), but you've brought out some aspects I've never considered. Your remarks about the impact of prog on popular 80s music are especially perceptive. I'd never thought about it, but Big Country's first album, The Crossing, reflects definite prog influence in songs like Lost Patrol and Porrohman. I've listened to these songs literally hundreds of times, but now see them in a wholly new light. Thanks!
@@234cheech I think you're right up to a point. The Who certainly for a while were prog. Tommy? A concept album? Definitely prog. "Who's Next" (which IMHO is the greatest rock album ever, others of course my disagree) was a truncated concept from Pete Townsend and then Quadrophenia, another concept album! After that not so sure. Led Zep always had very proggy songs on their albums. Really both bands can't be pigeon holed as prog or rock or pop or whatever. They had a unique sound and were hugely influential on other musicians.
I'll admit I liked the video on the prog-ometer, and I think it set the tone for the series. I wouldn't say the specific rules were important, and I felt the way the score was built up wasn't quite right. But I thought it showed that you were taking the time to think about the albums you'd list for the rest of the series, and it wasn't just a list of personal favorite albums. In my own mind, I tend to use the term "prog rock" as the genre, while "progressive music" is more like a goal.
I don't think they're up your alley, but I was surprised not to hear you mention Meshuggah at all in your series. They melded west African rhythms with very low pitched guitars, dissonance, and harsh vocals, which seemed progressive in that they expanded the dynamic range of guitars and rhythms in metal music. I expected you to mention TPAB and The Mars Volta, but I was happy to hear the Dillinger Escape Plan debut "Calculating Infinity" mentioned as well. Some of your conclusions were daring, I agreed with their mention. Good work Andy. 👏
Thank you, Andy, for this series ! Your Rain album is great ! My brother and I have been following Progressive music since its beginnings and this last video concisely summarizes why we never get tired of it. It’s always evolving and challenging when it’s true to the progressive spirit. Again, thank you so much for this ! We thoroughly enjoyed it !
One of the best shows about music on the internet. Great work Andy. I still love Zappa Pink Floyd and still listen to them a lot, along with Steely Dan, JJ Cale, Beatles, Grateful Dead, McLaughlin, Miles. I have the Radiohead albums purchased on the day of their release. I have the Black Midi albums, I love Primus and especially when bassist Les Claypool plays with Sean Lennon. 2 psych/prog/garage/punk/funk rock albums that stood out for me are from the early Mercury Rev, the guy that left went on to produce the Flaming Lips and Tame Impala, their 2nd and 3rd albums from the early 90s are excellent and worth a listen if you haven't already heard them? 1 is "Boces" and the other is their 3rd and probably an easier listen is "See You On The Other Side". I loved the new King Gizzard Laminated Denim/Hypertension EP. I love your show and the fact that you livestream it. I love tuning in live 😊💯 Great work 👏👏
Thank you for this academic endeavor. Well worth it. For me, Prog represents musicians being composers and vice versa. Regardless, we all benefited. A great era of creativity. Thank you for bringing it to the forefront of our consciousness. JT
The series was excellent. Andy did a great job. I now know why I shy away from and don't like most of today's prog, and much of today's music in general. I grew up in "The Golden Age". We have to realize it will probably not happen again. But there are artists out there who pick up many elements from the golden age which use them in a more current setting, making great music. The hard part is finding them. They are out there. Also, its very objective. What I like from the golden years someone else may not and visa versa. In the end, when you know its real and good, you know it.
I agree with you on modern music production taking the human element out to create a perfectly pitched and quantized sound. I noticed this in the late 80s in alternative and pop music and a lot of it doesn’t age well. I imagine it as producers attempting to get that crisp Trevor Horn effect but failing miserably. I loved this series and hope you do more like it, not necessarily about prog. I really liked how you put things into perspective with what was happening in music during the years and the changes in prog as a result.
Andy, I found your series on Prog informative and entertaining. It's great to hear a currently recording musician's take on the history of prog. You bring up many valid points on the subject, and it shows that prog should not be a genre and more of a style pertaining to other genres (ie prog-pop, prog-metal, prog-rock). It also shows what types of music you find influential on your own personal musical evolution. Keep up the great work.
This series has been fantastic, Andy. Really insightful and very thoughtful. I had loads of things to say, agree and disagree and that's really what makes it so interesting. Learned a lot. thought a lot about it. Can't ask for more.
In a similar vein to Black Midi is the band Squid (signed to Warp). The drummer, Ollie Judge, is also the singer and he gives it some welly. I'd recommend their debut album 'Bright Green Field.'
I think it was me with the retro prog comment - and by that I meant more of the bands of the 90s like Magellan and newer bands like Magic Pie - nothing wrong with them of course
Absolutely fabulous series Andy. You have provided so historical and cultural perspective that I never much was aware of, because I was living with this music and never took that dtep back. These and other videos of yours at times also remind me of Henry Wilt in Tlm Sharpe's books, contrarian and often going off at tangets, but in the end alwsys winning out. Like those books you always bring a smile to my face, or more often uncontrollable laughter. Keep up the good work!
Thanks Andy, a fascinating and thought provoking series. Completely agree that progressive music should not be constrained by dogmatic rules/boundaries.
I did exactly what you said and watched your first video and missed the following 4 hours of videos on prog. But I totally agree with your summation that the ideas of prog did splinter off into other genres - your comment on punk's legacy on 80's indie music nails that argument succinctly. So I'm a fan of progressive music, but not necessarily a fan of all British progressive rock from the 'golden' or 'retro' periods. And I thank you for making your videos.
I really enjoyed this series. Your conversations about the history of popular music are always interesting and enlightening. I think one place where the prog ethos continued to be carried through the late '70s and into to the 2010s was the Rock In Opposition movement and Recommended Records. That little world, spearheaded by Henry Cow, was never well-known to music-consumers at large, but I think it's continually inspired and influenced a subset of artists working in the recording industry for 40 years.
Andy, I found this series on Prog very interesting and fun. In short, I think you are on point with this, you nailed it. Good fun too! I have been attending gigs, collecting and listening to music since the late 70s. From the start most of the music I have and like is labeled Prog or Progressive. For many (but not me) Prog has a very defined boundary, a bubble like you aptly state. I like to journey outside of the bubble be it my bubble or a genre bubble. I would like to think that my tastes, likes and listening habits have progressed. I am always on the lookout for different music or open to whatever. If it is adventurous and creative and I like then I don't care what category it falls under. If it is good, then it is good. More importantly, if I like it then that is what matters. I like in music that influences come from all areas and directions and influence can be a two way street. Most, if not all, genres are influenced and influence. I recall that Steve Hackett once stated that fusion is probably a more apt title for all things prog and progressive. I also recall Robert Fripp stating something along the lines that rock music is the most malleable form of music. For those that do not agree with your point of view and take it too seriously should lighten up a bit. Music is a joy and should be fun for the listener and enthusiast. It is for me.
What is nice, and unintentional, is my tendency/fault towards surreal humour and my tendency to leave all the mistakes in my videos undermines the whole Prog As Perfection aesthetic and all those prog fans sit there annoyed by what I'm saying but unable to put a nasty comment in as they know they will be undone by silliness. Many people ask what the English Aesthetic is...it's that....
Brilliant series, really enjoyed your insight and also introduction to some newer stuff. Pretty much agreed with everything you said to be honest but like you i have always had a very wide taste in music and could easily buy a prog, punk, electronic, or rock album on the same day. Whilst loving the classic prog period and artists was always open to the idea of the progression of music rather than the genre "prog". Close to The Edge and Red (King Crimson Red is in fact probably my all time fave album by anyone) are my 2 fave classic period prog albums but certainly agree that progressive music has expanded into other forms, electronica, ambient. Would like to add Sigur Ros into the mix for artists "progressing" musical styles, particularly with the Ágætis byrjun album. Anyway keep up the great content and look forward to more musical insights in 2023.
Great wrap up Andy! Your views on the prog timeline were definitely appreciated. As I already commented, I don't necessarily love all your yearly picks, but I do hear how each generally progressed music forward. A fun journey!
Excellent series, totally agree. The most interesting albums I've brought recently are Black Midi, Squid then Murcof and Heiner Goebbels both of which most people into prog rock wouldn't listen to but are as progressive as it gets. 👍
Brilliant series, Andy! For me, there are two types of music - stuff that I’ve heard, and stuff I haven’t heard yet. Hopefully I’ll get to hear it all, but probably not. My point is that all music can be good music. Locking yourself into a genre - and, especially a particular period of that genre, is cutting your ears off to spite your face. Access to music is now easier than it ever was, but I’m not sure the Spotify “if you like that, you might like this” approach broadens horizons. The problem I have with your videos is realising how much great music I’ve missed - mostly because I didn’t know it was there, but partly because it wasn’t on my genre radar. Open ears and an open mind should be the mantra. A decent sound system also helps. Keep on expanding the musical horizon. Cheers and I hope you have an excellent 2023!
Im in your court Andy. Prog is all about progression and the retro bands were only influenced by blues, jazz, rock. Only thru the 70s did we introduce disco, glam rock, punk, new wave. To love prog means you MUST in my opinion accept prog that accepts new genres of music. Metal, grunge, post metal, ambient, electronica etc. Tears for Fears are amazing BTW
This series was fantastic - a monumental, almost overly ambitious endeavour approached with both tongue-in-cheek humour and heart-on-sleeve sincerity, yielding results that both delighted and challenged the audience. Sounds a bit proggy, right? I think your conclusions here are broadly in line with my own. We now have this almost irreconcilable tension between Prog-as-genre and Prog-as-attitude. This schism is compounded by the fact that many many artists both in and outside of the "prog bubble" as you call it, seem to have a foot in both camps. Yes, you have the unashamedly backwards looking retro-prog of, say, The Flower Kings (which I do have some time for personally, but that might be down to my relative youth - I got on board the prog train as a teen in the early 00s, so the content of a given song/album mattered as much to me as who did it first), but then you also have artists like The Tangent or Deluge Grander or King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard, who are all in one way or another shamelessly plundering sounds of the past, but will still find ways to contort and reiterate them into idiosyncratic and surprising new forms. The one thing I wish you'd found the time for, (though I appreciate these videos were already a mammoth undertaking!) would have been to look a little at the Rock In Opposition movement, and the wider "avant-prog" scene that it spawned. It is a strain of prog that runs through its entire 50 year history like words on a stick of rock, but it's rarely talked about outside of insular enthusiast circles. Those bands have and will never gain any kind of serious mainstream traction, but the music itself is enormously exciting and impactful, and it is a rich vein still being mined by new generations of musicians to this day. Anyway, I could waffle on indefinitely, but suffice it to say - thank you for this. You've made me laugh, challenged some of my preconceptions and given me a slew of new albums to check out (not least of which is the new Rain album!).
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Nice one, looking forward to that. It's amazing isn't it? No matter how deep you dig, there's always more to discover! Btw, I'm very impressed with the new Rain album after an initial spin today. Eclectic, authentic, strong melodies but some nice twists and turns to keep things interesting. You've got yourself another fan!
I think you really nailed it when you talked about Dionysus and Apollo, it really sums up the genre. I am not sure the bands of ‘72 were considering themselves as particularly progressive, they were all exploring earlier non rock genres and blending it with psychedelic rock so the classic period was perhaps more retro than Prog. Those early bands all had moments where I’d want to dance to it. They still had that classic rock and roll feel and energy. Younger bands should get a good grasp of Chuck Berry because Prog rock is rock. Great video, you really know your stuff. Thanks.
72-73 is when many prog bands started to master the prog craft. It's like they finally figured out the last bit of the secret formula, which earlier bands had helped to build, brick by brick. So, no, perhaps not truly progressive albums came out at that point, but it was definetly the peak of best compositions and best productions.
@@MrDingDong2 composition and songwriting, that’s a big part of it. All those ‘72 bands had hits, the pop elements were strong. Those bands were definitely progressive but it wasn’t a genre back then, there wasn’t that self awareness about it, they were forging the template. Then once there was a template it was gone to be recycled by the police and Talk Talk etc. I think a space opened up for Prog to happen in and then it closed, it’s a miracle it happened at all.
Great conclusion, Andy! I have been listening all my life to both "prog" and "progressive" and will continue to look for innovative music in the future - your advices of bands and artists that I did not know are extremely helpful. Now I have a small request, since you are yourself a contributor to these genres, can you direct us to more things that you have done and are particularly proud of? Thank you!
Sometimes when a new musical idea comes along, it opens up a whole new musical landscape. There may be all sorts of nooks and crannies in it, so the originators of the idea, as well as others who discover it after them, can spend a long and productive time exploring it. In this sense, the music that is generated from such exploration after the initial phase is not truly PROGRESSIVE, but it can still be very CREATIVE, and well worth the effort.
Thanks for doing this whole thing, very entertaining and very informative. I thought your observation on the peak of prog was very perceptive…my own teenage “trigger” band was Wishbone Ash, who of course released one of those highly rated and popular early ‘70s classics with Argus, which would clearly score highly on the Progometer. However their follow-up, Wishbone Four, was a much simpler mix of folk- and blues-rock. Cheers Andy!
I think a lot of confusion is created by the different definitions of what prog is. I've heard it described the same as Andy is displaying, as music that is moving forward with the times. But, I have also heard it described as music that progresses from movement to movement. Some just say it has to be complex. I imagine all are true. So, I don't have beef with whoever's description it is. I like them all. But you do get people that are adamant about their definition and they become snobby and defensive.
Great series Mr. Edwards, much appreciated. I was wondering, I know you aren't the biggest fan of Magma, and you were expecting a different sound when you first heard them. Have you heard of Koenjihyakkei? they are a magma inspired band, but much more energetic and angular. They have been around since the late 90s, but they are still putting out new work. Their newest album being from 2018. I think you would dig them.
Yes...I was expecting something much less....well ....boring. It's a great sound that goes on for a long time. I do have a problem, which is my fault, with European prog bands like Tangerine Dream, Can, Faust, Magma, which is they sound like Eauropean post Bitches Brew fusion bands to me. But without the great solos. I mat expand on this in a video at some point. I know its not fair and my fault, but I think I heard Bitches Brew, Then Mwandishi and Early Weather Report and those Euro prog bands sounded like that but not as good. I have the same issue with Soft Machine and Frank Zappa....
Yea, I had the same problem with those prog or krautrock bands, tried to listen to them many times but I couldn't get into it. I'd say the band I mentioned is less repetitive and closer to more avant garde groups like Henry Cow, but heavier. I would love to see a video on the different kinds of aesthetics around the world and how they contributed to prog, and your issues with some of them.
Andy, I'd like to know your views on a very influential album that appears on very few prog lists (the first review on progarchives begins, quote, "_good pop/rock band , but absolutely NOTHING PROG, no matter what some would have you believe !!!_", unquote), yet it already does in 1980 what you explained happened in the 1990s. The album is "Remain in Light" (I deliberately won't say by whom as it's on many, many greatest album lists). Johnny Greenwood admits it directly inspired "Kid A". And of course it's right there inside KC's "Discipline".
Yes...this has been mention before. And the film Stop Making Sense is about as prog as you can get. I will pass them through the prog-o-meter: 70% prog...
So I've just initiated myself to the music of black midi and whadd'ya know: Remain in Light is right there too. Why are proggies blind to that landmark album?
Bloody hell, Proff, ya got me thinking and it hurts my head. Remember when Jimi and Cream evolved blues? I want to ride the third wave of blues evolution. You'd be surprised where blues can go to. No you wouldn't you have a few excellent records. Like 900 platters. In 1976 I brought home In Through the Out Door or Physical Grafitti and my door was open and everything was gone, including my turntable. The thief (I knew the guy) left my records - I had about a hundred of the most interesting most evolutionary most perfect albums ever made. I sold them to a record shop - 50 bucks for the pristine collection. I want to know the story of the White Ukulele. I should teach blues. Just blues, not "the blues". Third wave awakens. How do you take Cream and Hendrix and advance the concepts? Don't think. Don't try. Bye-bye.
Nice one, Andy, well summed up. One element you didn't mention in modern Prog is the influence of musical theatre, especially the Broadway variety, which was explicitly introduced by Dream Theater (they even staged Metamorphosis), and that's come round into Black Midi's 'Hellfire' - you can visualise the stage production listening to it. (I was in theatre most of my working life and unfortunately can't stomach musicals, but I guess that's my loss.) One downside is that most singers I've heard in the Prog bubble sound like session singers, better suited to backing vocals than taking the lead, as they have no character. When Steve Hackett got Richie Havens and Randy Crawford to sing on 'Please Don't Touch', that was a master stroke (later, that's what Massive Attack did).
Broadway style writing was done by Laura Nyro on her progressive art pop masterpiece Eli and the Thirteenth Confession (1968), the song Sweet Blindness written for Stevie Wonder. Another example, Mercy on Broadway from her 1969 masterpiece, New York Tendaberry. The song includes a real gun shot. Nyro's songwriting was way ahead of the pack, yet she wrote many hits despite the innovation and complexity of her songs. In November 1969 she had three songs at 1,2 and 10 on Billboard.
How do you make sense of Steely Dan? Certainly very progressive, excellent playing, songs not about love, not necessarily blues based... etc. I can't think of them as progressive rock, but what are they?
Progressive pop incorporating different styles, very influenced by Laura Nyro: in a Rolling Stone interview a few years ago Donald Fagen said that Nyro's work encouraged them to be "experimental".
Very good,but you can't get in all. I missed Procol Harums 17 minute epic from 1968 "In held twas in I", bands like Colloseum,,Family,Traffic,Focus and Renaissance
All of those groups could easily have been in episode 2 on the emergence of prog (episode 1 didn't list any albums). But that would have used up half of the 60 albums already before even leaving the 60s! As I often point out, the monicker "progressive music" was coined in a critic's response to Traffic's first album. I saw it happen in real time.
Yes, for me prog is about being open-minded and eclectic. Ideally to create something new. Anyway the last band to blow me away was Sleaford Mods! Go figure.
Good summing up. Your overarching point is essentially indisputable as best I can tell, and seems like it should be almost common sense to anybody who’s given long hours of their life immersed in music,( I think being a musician can also help align with this perspective, which is something you alluded to if not outright said). I think that possibly some people hear your pointing to the Progressive ethic or mode, being active in some movement forward in music, manifesting within the work of some given band or artist, as you saying that said piece of work is ‘better’ than some band that they were into at some corresponding time, which of course is not what you’re saying. Talking of which, having listened to the ‘Singularity’ album by your band ‘Rain’, I can attest to you having successfully avoided some of the traits you seem to have identified as perhaps undesirable,( to you at least, and I would certainly second it), within the Neo-Prog and Progressive-Metal worlds. I was concerned at one point in one track that you were about to spin off into ‘Regular Fries’ territory but you kept it just on the right side of that particular perimeter thank God 😉😉 I listened to it in between binge watching ‘His Dark Materials’ so it was consumed against an appropriate background environment lol Good stuff and as expected, a high level of musicianship.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I can kind of see that, but within the individual tracks certain harmonic and/or melodic choices seem to buck that trend or concept….. which is absolutely fine by me 👍
Because it sold a lot doesn’t mean that it is cutting edge or that progressive. Coryell, Tony Williams Lifetime, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Mahavishnu these are the bands that made the genre. They didn’t sell millions yet were cutting edge, the middle of you will between rock and jazz
First of all, thank you very much for adressing this gigantic task, trully appreciated. I did learn a lot from you recollection, and I think part of the success of the whole endeavour comes from the fact that you are a schollar and also a musician who has participated in the prog movement. That said, I have a couple of points to make. First, it seems to me that Pink Floyd is overrepresented in your history. Not only because ELP 1st is more relevant to prog than Atom Heart Mother, but also because they never departed much from the blues territory, even with the 7/8s and the occasional jazz harmonies by Rick Wright. The second reserve I have is when you put album sales in the equation to rank records, which seems pretty un-proggy to me. Lastly, even when your disclaimer states that this is your opinion only, the lack of mention of prog bands or records from outside UK and USA is a real downer. I don't pretend you go as far as to study Argentinian bands like Crucis, Alas, Invisible or La Maquina de Hacer Pájaros. Much closer to home you have the massive Italian Prog movement which envolves dozens of bands, some of which (like PFM) sold a lot of records! I hope I don't get punished for this. I already inflicted that punishment myself by watching The Life an Death of Colonel Blimp!
I preferred Italian (prog) rock music much more than the English in the 70's. But for the story Andy has to tell it is sufficient and correct to confine it to the Anglo-Saxon Prog Rock business. And in this context it is also forgivable that he does not speak about something he knows nothing about. So that not only PFM has to be used for Italian prog rock, another group as a listening tip: Pierrot lunaire --Gudrun and I will check an Argentinian ;-)
So you have these prog bands that are continuing to progress, and someone like Andy Edwards comes along and says 'there's too much progression'. Major progressive rock releases in 1974 aren't sounding like the stuff made in 1972, and therefore the classic prog era has apparently ended. He really seems fixed with the idea that the best prog came out between 1970-1973. But what is driving this belief? He's heard this elsewhere, and he's parroting.
You know what you should do if you haven't done so already. Design two music appreciation courses (or maybe merge them into one course) on the history of progressive rock and other on the history of fusion. That would be awesome,
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Funny you said that because I did listen to it just two days ago. Very interesting music. It didn't sound like what we think of fusion but more like slightly experimental Jazz mixed in with psychedelic music.
I like the hair brushed up and the opinions strong!
I've never realized that retro-prog in reality is the nemesis of the progressive idea, until now. Also, I Love the anti-quantization and anti-autotune gospel. Let's hope that that more and more prog-listeners will crave human sounding productions in the future, so that artists are forced to follow along in order to stay relevant. You've made me think about prog in a different way with this series! Thanks, Andy.
Totally agree with everything you discussed. Especially your comments on anti-quantization and anti-autotune. Repetitive perfection bores/numbs the brain. Alex was right to fight for anti-quantized drums. Natural selection/Evolution crafted a brain that pays attention to fluxes/imperfections in the environment.
I marginally disagree with your first statement about retro-prog. I like bands like Wobbler. Wobbler reminds many of Yes/Gentle Giant/ect. I don't think retro is a sin, if the music sounds fresh, exciting, and genius. I also enjoy modern prog bands who push boundries....as long as it sounds good to my ears. Farts in 13/12 time played in counterpoint to a manic rap/bluegrass/opera boundary pushing composition may be prog...but I don't like it. Yet, I believe. "Live and let live. Different strokes for different folks."
I realised doing this I don't mind the whole retro prog thing, what I really hate about most modern music, including most modern prog, is the over production, and that manifests itself in loads of different ways. I think people were more honest about how they created their music the music scene would be more healthier...
Yes, you are both right, there's nothing wrong with retro prog. Some of the retro bands truly manage to carve out their own little cave in the prog mountain, and explore all the unique twists and turns that lies within it.
@@MrDingDong2 I think if the song is really good then whether it’s retro or not doesn’t really matter.
Your insight on prog and fusion and jazz and pop is second to none. Now lets stop explaining what this music is and get into the music itself. Thanks for all the great episodes.
Excellent series, thoroughly enjoyed it from a combined musician and academic perspective. Could list numerous points, but key takeaway is that what is commonly known as "prog" is really part of the continuing story of progressive music. Pink Floyd's role throughout the history of progressive music is quite fascinating also. Cheers from the USA.
I've been listening to progressive rock since 1972 (starting with Fragile, of course), but you've brought out some aspects I've never considered. Your remarks about the impact of prog on popular 80s music are especially perceptive. I'd never thought about it, but Big Country's first album, The Crossing, reflects definite prog influence in songs like Lost Patrol and Porrohman. I've listened to these songs literally hundreds of times, but now see them in a wholly new light. Thanks!
the who zeppelin etc etc were progressive
@@234cheech I think you're right up to a point. The Who certainly for a while were prog. Tommy? A concept album? Definitely prog. "Who's Next" (which IMHO is the greatest rock album ever, others of course my disagree) was a truncated concept from Pete Townsend and then Quadrophenia, another concept album! After that not so sure. Led Zep always had very proggy songs on their albums. Really both bands can't be pigeon holed as prog or rock or pop or whatever. They had a unique sound and were hugely influential on other musicians.
I'll admit I liked the video on the prog-ometer, and I think it set the tone for the series. I wouldn't say the specific rules were important, and I felt the way the score was built up wasn't quite right. But I thought it showed that you were taking the time to think about the albums you'd list for the rest of the series, and it wasn't just a list of personal favorite albums.
In my own mind, I tend to use the term "prog rock" as the genre, while "progressive music" is more like a goal.
I don't think they're up your alley, but I was surprised not to hear you mention Meshuggah at all in your series. They melded west African rhythms with very low pitched guitars, dissonance, and harsh vocals, which seemed progressive in that they expanded the dynamic range of guitars and rhythms in metal music.
I expected you to mention TPAB and The Mars Volta, but I was happy to hear the Dillinger Escape Plan debut "Calculating Infinity" mentioned as well.
Some of your conclusions were daring, I agreed with their mention. Good work Andy. 👏
Thank you, Andy, for this series ! Your Rain album is great ! My brother and I have been following Progressive music since its beginnings and this last video concisely summarizes why we never get tired of it. It’s always evolving and challenging when it’s true to the progressive spirit. Again, thank you so much for this ! We thoroughly enjoyed it !
One of the best shows about music on the internet. Great work Andy. I still love Zappa Pink Floyd and still listen to them a lot, along with Steely Dan, JJ Cale, Beatles, Grateful Dead, McLaughlin, Miles. I have the Radiohead albums purchased on the day of their release. I have the Black Midi albums, I love Primus and especially when bassist Les Claypool plays with Sean Lennon. 2 psych/prog/garage/punk/funk rock albums that stood out for me are from the early Mercury Rev, the guy that left went on to produce the Flaming Lips and Tame Impala, their 2nd and 3rd albums from the early 90s are excellent and worth a listen if you haven't already heard them? 1 is "Boces" and the other is their 3rd and probably an easier listen is "See You On The Other Side". I loved the new King Gizzard Laminated Denim/Hypertension EP.
I love your show and the fact that you livestream it. I love tuning in live 😊💯 Great work 👏👏
This was a very, very good series Andy. I really enjoyed it. You have a very unique, and interesting, perspective on prog music as a whole.
Thank you for this academic endeavor. Well worth it.
For me, Prog represents musicians being composers and vice versa. Regardless, we all benefited.
A great era of creativity.
Thank you for bringing it to the forefront of our consciousness.
JT
The series was excellent. Andy did a great job. I now know why I shy away from and don't like most of today's prog, and much of today's music in general. I grew up in "The Golden Age". We have to realize it will probably not happen again. But there are artists out there who pick up many elements from the golden age which use them in a more current setting, making great music. The hard part is finding them. They are out there. Also, its very objective. What I like from the golden years someone else may not and visa versa. In the end, when you know its real and good, you know it.
What a great series!!!! 👍👍👍❤️❤️❤️
One could spend many a happy hour debating some of these points in a pub.
Truly a great primer on Prog.
I agree with you on modern music production taking the human element out to create a perfectly pitched and quantized sound. I noticed this in the late 80s in alternative and pop music and a lot of it doesn’t age well. I imagine it as producers attempting to get that crisp Trevor Horn effect but failing miserably.
I loved this series and hope you do more like it, not necessarily about prog. I really liked how you put things into perspective with what was happening in music during the years and the changes in prog as a result.
That was still very well done and it's very educational as well as funny.Your flow is great too
I've learnt that Life Is Prog.
Thanks
Fantastic job, Andy - a massive project, and obviously a labour of love...
Andy, I found your series on Prog informative and entertaining. It's great to hear a currently recording musician's take on the history of prog. You bring up many valid points on the subject, and it shows that prog should not be a genre and more of a style pertaining to other genres (ie prog-pop, prog-metal, prog-rock). It also shows what types of music you find influential on your own personal musical evolution. Keep up the great work.
This series has been fantastic, Andy. Really insightful and very thoughtful. I had loads of things to say, agree and disagree and that's really what makes it so interesting. Learned a lot. thought a lot about it. Can't ask for more.
In a similar vein to Black Midi is the band Squid (signed to Warp). The drummer, Ollie Judge, is also the singer and he gives it some welly. I'd recommend their debut album 'Bright Green Field.'
I think it was me with the retro prog comment - and by that I meant more of the bands of the 90s like Magellan and newer bands like Magic Pie - nothing wrong with them of course
Absolutely fabulous series Andy. You have provided so historical and cultural perspective that I never much was aware of, because I was living with this music and never took that dtep back. These and other videos of yours at times also remind me of Henry Wilt in Tlm Sharpe's books, contrarian and often going off at tangets, but in the end alwsys winning out. Like those books you always bring a smile to my face, or more often uncontrollable laughter. Keep up the good work!
Thanks Andy, a fascinating and thought provoking series. Completely agree that progressive music should not be constrained by dogmatic rules/boundaries.
I did exactly what you said and watched your first video and missed the following 4 hours of videos on prog. But I totally agree with your summation that the ideas of prog did splinter off into other genres - your comment on punk's legacy on 80's indie music nails that argument succinctly. So I'm a fan of progressive music, but not necessarily a fan of all British progressive rock from the 'golden' or 'retro' periods. And I thank you for making your videos.
I really enjoyed this series. Your conversations about the history of popular music are always interesting and enlightening. I think one place where the prog ethos continued to be carried through the late '70s and into to the 2010s was the Rock In Opposition movement and Recommended Records. That little world, spearheaded by Henry Cow, was never well-known to music-consumers at large, but I think it's continually inspired and influenced a subset of artists working in the recording industry for 40 years.
I believe the progometer to be humanity’s single most important innovation of the last fifty odd years.
Andy, I found this series on Prog very interesting and fun. In short, I think you are on point with this, you nailed it. Good fun too!
I have been attending gigs, collecting and listening to music since the late 70s. From the start most of the music I have and like is labeled Prog or Progressive. For many (but not me) Prog has a very defined boundary, a bubble like you aptly state. I like to journey outside of the bubble be it my bubble or a genre bubble. I would like to think that my tastes, likes and listening habits have progressed. I am always on the lookout for different music or open to whatever. If it is adventurous and creative and I like then I don't care what category it falls under. If it is good, then it is good. More importantly, if I like it then that is what matters.
I like in music that influences come from all areas and directions and influence can be a two way street. Most, if not all, genres are influenced and influence. I recall that Steve Hackett once stated that fusion is probably a more apt title for all things prog and progressive. I also recall Robert Fripp stating something along the lines that rock music is the most malleable form of music.
For those that do not agree with your point of view and take it too seriously should lighten up a bit. Music is a joy and should be fun for the listener and enthusiast. It is for me.
What is nice, and unintentional, is my tendency/fault towards surreal humour and my tendency to leave all the mistakes in my videos undermines the whole Prog As Perfection aesthetic and all those prog fans sit there annoyed by what I'm saying but unable to put a nasty comment in as they know they will be undone by silliness. Many people ask what the English Aesthetic is...it's that....
Brilliant series, really enjoyed your insight and also introduction to some newer stuff. Pretty much agreed with everything you said to be honest but like you i have always had a very wide taste in music and could easily buy a prog, punk, electronic, or rock album on the same day. Whilst loving the classic prog period and artists was always open to the idea of the progression of music rather than the genre "prog". Close to The Edge and Red (King Crimson Red is in fact probably my all time fave album by anyone) are my 2 fave classic period prog albums but certainly agree that progressive music has expanded into other forms, electronica, ambient. Would like to add Sigur Ros into the mix for artists "progressing" musical styles, particularly with the Ágætis byrjun album. Anyway keep up the great content and look forward to more musical insights in 2023.
Great wrap up Andy! Your views on the prog timeline were definitely appreciated. As I already commented, I don't necessarily love all your yearly picks, but I do hear how each generally progressed music forward. A fun journey!
And as far as what prog rock is I always said from back in the mid 70s on that if you can't dance to it it's prog 🤣
Excellent series, totally agree. The most interesting albums I've brought recently are Black Midi, Squid then Murcof and Heiner Goebbels both of which most people into prog rock wouldn't listen to but are as progressive as it gets. 👍
My Conclusion in a nut shell:
Retro Prog>>Actual Prog which prog fans won't say is prog
There's some good stuff coming out of the progressive bluegrass genre, too.
Good series and fine ending. Good work.
Brilliant series, Andy! For me, there are two types of music - stuff that I’ve heard, and stuff I haven’t heard yet. Hopefully I’ll get to hear it all, but probably not. My point is that all music can be good music. Locking yourself into a genre - and, especially a particular period of that genre, is cutting your ears off to spite your face. Access to music is now easier than it ever was, but I’m not sure the Spotify “if you like that, you might like this” approach broadens horizons. The problem I have with your videos is realising how much great music I’ve missed - mostly because I didn’t know it was there, but partly because it wasn’t on my genre radar. Open ears and an open mind should be the mantra. A decent sound system also helps. Keep on expanding the musical horizon. Cheers and I hope you have an excellent 2023!
An interesting comparison of "OK Computer" to "Close to the Edge" and "Kid A" to "Relayer" (1990s vs. 1970s) 🤔
The passion seeps through, thanks!
Im in your court Andy. Prog is all about progression and the retro bands were only influenced by blues, jazz, rock. Only thru the 70s did we introduce disco, glam rock, punk, new wave. To love prog means you MUST in my opinion accept prog that accepts new genres of music. Metal, grunge, post metal, ambient, electronica etc. Tears for Fears are amazing BTW
This series was fantastic - a monumental, almost overly ambitious endeavour approached with both tongue-in-cheek humour and heart-on-sleeve sincerity, yielding results that both delighted and challenged the audience. Sounds a bit proggy, right?
I think your conclusions here are broadly in line with my own. We now have this almost irreconcilable tension between Prog-as-genre and Prog-as-attitude. This schism is compounded by the fact that many many artists both in and outside of the "prog bubble" as you call it, seem to have a foot in both camps. Yes, you have the unashamedly backwards looking retro-prog of, say, The Flower Kings (which I do have some time for personally, but that might be down to my relative youth - I got on board the prog train as a teen in the early 00s, so the content of a given song/album mattered as much to me as who did it first), but then you also have artists like The Tangent or Deluge Grander or King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard, who are all in one way or another shamelessly plundering sounds of the past, but will still find ways to contort and reiterate them into idiosyncratic and surprising new forms.
The one thing I wish you'd found the time for, (though I appreciate these videos were already a mammoth undertaking!) would have been to look a little at the Rock In Opposition movement, and the wider "avant-prog" scene that it spawned. It is a strain of prog that runs through its entire 50 year history like words on a stick of rock, but it's rarely talked about outside of insular enthusiast circles. Those bands have and will never gain any kind of serious mainstream traction, but the music itself is enormously exciting and impactful, and it is a rich vein still being mined by new generations of musicians to this day.
Anyway, I could waffle on indefinitely, but suffice it to say - thank you for this. You've made me laugh, challenged some of my preconceptions and given me a slew of new albums to check out (not least of which is the new Rain album!).
I am trying to cover the stuff in the cracks...have a Euro prog video coming out tomorrow...had to do some research on that one
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Nice one, looking forward to that. It's amazing isn't it? No matter how deep you dig, there's always more to discover!
Btw, I'm very impressed with the new Rain album after an initial spin today. Eclectic, authentic, strong melodies but some nice twists and turns to keep things interesting. You've got yourself another fan!
I love that you had a wobbler album in your history but I would have picked dwellers of the deep as the wobbler representative of the catalog
I think you really nailed it when you talked about Dionysus and Apollo, it really sums up the genre. I am not sure the bands of ‘72 were considering themselves as particularly progressive, they were all exploring earlier non rock genres and blending it with psychedelic rock so the classic period was perhaps more retro than Prog. Those early bands all had moments where I’d want to dance to it. They still had that classic rock and roll feel and energy. Younger bands should get a good grasp of Chuck Berry because Prog rock is rock. Great video, you really know your stuff. Thanks.
72-73 is when many prog bands started to master the prog craft. It's like they finally figured out the last bit of the secret formula, which earlier bands had helped to build, brick by brick.
So, no, perhaps not truly progressive albums came out at that point, but it was definetly the peak of best compositions and best productions.
@@MrDingDong2 composition and songwriting, that’s a big part of it. All those ‘72 bands had hits, the pop elements were strong. Those bands were definitely progressive but it wasn’t a genre back then, there wasn’t that self awareness about it, they were forging the template. Then once there was a template it was gone to be recycled by the police and Talk Talk etc. I think a space opened up for Prog to happen in and then it closed, it’s a miracle it happened at all.
Great conclusion, Andy! I have been listening all my life to both "prog" and "progressive" and will continue to look for innovative music in the future - your advices of bands and artists that I did not know are extremely helpful. Now I have a small request, since you are yourself a contributor to these genres, can you direct us to more things that you have done and are particularly proud of? Thank you!
Little white ukulele steps up to red sunburst archtop..."this is my wall!".
Sometimes when a new musical idea comes along, it opens up a whole new musical landscape. There may be all sorts of nooks and crannies in it, so the originators of the idea, as well as others who discover it after them, can spend a long and productive time exploring it. In this sense, the music that is generated from such exploration after the initial phase is not truly PROGRESSIVE, but it can still be very CREATIVE, and well worth the effort.
Thanks for doing this whole thing, very entertaining and very informative. I thought your observation on the peak of prog was very perceptive…my own teenage “trigger” band was Wishbone Ash, who of course released one of those highly rated and popular early ‘70s classics with Argus, which would clearly score highly on the Progometer. However their follow-up, Wishbone Four, was a much simpler mix of folk- and blues-rock. Cheers Andy!
Andy is a Prog Machine.
Well done, Andy.
Thanks Andy. Spot on.
You're very deep in, Professor. Progressive is anything that evolves. Like the String Wall.
I think a lot of confusion is created by the different definitions of what prog is. I've heard it described the same as Andy is displaying, as music that is moving forward with the times. But, I have also heard it described as music that progresses from movement to movement. Some just say it has to be complex. I imagine all are true. So, I don't have beef with whoever's description it is. I like them all. But you do get people that are adamant about their definition and they become snobby and defensive.
Great series Mr. Edwards, much appreciated.
I was wondering, I know you aren't the biggest fan of Magma, and you were expecting a different sound when you first heard them. Have you heard of Koenjihyakkei? they are a magma inspired band, but much more energetic and angular. They have been around since the late 90s, but they are still putting out new work. Their newest album being from 2018. I think you would dig them.
Yes...I was expecting something much less....well ....boring. It's a great sound that goes on for a long time. I do have a problem, which is my fault, with European prog bands like Tangerine Dream, Can, Faust, Magma, which is they sound like Eauropean post Bitches Brew fusion bands to me. But without the great solos. I mat expand on this in a video at some point. I know its not fair and my fault, but I think I heard Bitches Brew, Then Mwandishi and Early Weather Report and those Euro prog bands sounded like that but not as good. I have the same issue with Soft Machine and Frank Zappa....
Yea, I had the same problem with those prog or krautrock bands, tried to listen to them many times but I couldn't get into it.
I'd say the band I mentioned is less repetitive and closer to more avant garde groups like Henry Cow, but heavier.
I would love to see a video on the different kinds of aesthetics around the world and how they contributed to prog, and your issues with some of them.
Andy, I'd like to know your views on a very influential album that appears on very few prog lists (the first review on progarchives begins, quote, "_good pop/rock band , but absolutely NOTHING PROG, no matter what some would have you believe !!!_", unquote), yet it already does in 1980 what you explained happened in the 1990s. The album is "Remain in Light" (I deliberately won't say by whom as it's on many, many greatest album lists). Johnny Greenwood admits it directly inspired "Kid A". And of course it's right there inside KC's "Discipline".
Yes...this has been mention before. And the film Stop Making Sense is about as prog as you can get. I will pass them through the prog-o-meter: 70% prog...
So I've just initiated myself to the music of black midi and whadd'ya know: Remain in Light is right there too. Why are proggies blind to that landmark album?
@@multi-purposebiped7419 i could do a video on it...
Bloody hell, Proff, ya got me thinking and it hurts my head. Remember when Jimi and Cream evolved blues? I want to ride the third wave of blues evolution. You'd be surprised where blues can go to. No you wouldn't you have a few excellent records. Like 900 platters. In 1976 I brought home In Through the Out Door or Physical Grafitti and my door was open and everything was gone, including my turntable. The thief (I knew the guy) left my records - I had about a hundred of the most interesting most evolutionary most perfect albums ever made. I sold them to a record shop - 50 bucks for the pristine collection. I want to know the story of the White Ukulele. I should teach blues. Just blues, not "the blues". Third wave awakens. How do you take Cream and Hendrix and advance the concepts? Don't think. Don't try. Bye-bye.
Nice one, Andy, well summed up. One element you didn't mention in modern Prog is the influence of musical theatre, especially the Broadway variety, which was explicitly introduced by Dream Theater (they even staged Metamorphosis), and that's come round into Black Midi's 'Hellfire' - you can visualise the stage production listening to it. (I was in theatre most of my working life and unfortunately can't stomach musicals, but I guess that's my loss.) One downside is that most singers I've heard in the Prog bubble sound like session singers, better suited to backing vocals than taking the lead, as they have no character. When Steve Hackett got Richie Havens and Randy Crawford to sing on 'Please Don't Touch', that was a master stroke (later, that's what Massive Attack did).
Broadway style writing was done by Laura Nyro on her progressive art pop masterpiece Eli and the Thirteenth Confession (1968), the song Sweet Blindness written for Stevie Wonder. Another example, Mercy on Broadway from her 1969 masterpiece, New York Tendaberry. The song includes a real gun shot. Nyro's songwriting was way ahead of the pack, yet she wrote many hits despite the innovation and complexity of her songs. In November 1969 she had three songs at 1,2 and 10 on Billboard.
@@lupcokotevski2907 I greatly admire Nyro's individuality. She's a cut above the examples I was referring to.
@@TractorCountdown I agree. I think she's amazing. Cheers.
How do you make sense of Steely Dan? Certainly very progressive, excellent playing, songs not about love, not necessarily blues based... etc. I can't think of them as progressive rock, but what are they?
Progressive pop incorporating different styles, very influenced by Laura Nyro: in a Rolling Stone interview a few years ago Donald Fagen said that Nyro's work encouraged them to be "experimental".
Very good,but you can't get in all. I missed Procol Harums 17 minute epic from 1968 "In held twas in I", bands like Colloseum,,Family,Traffic,Focus and Renaissance
All of those groups could easily have been in episode 2 on the emergence of prog (episode 1 didn't list any albums). But that would have used up half of the 60 albums already before even leaving the 60s!
As I often point out, the monicker "progressive music" was coined in a critic's response to Traffic's first album. I saw it happen in real time.
Stands up and cheers
Did I nail it? Why do I want to nail it? What has prog ever done to me?
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Bloody did mate!
Yes, for me prog is about being open-minded and eclectic. Ideally to create something new. Anyway the last band to blow me away was Sleaford Mods! Go figure.
Good summing up. Your overarching point is essentially indisputable as best I can tell, and seems like it should be almost common sense to anybody who’s given long hours of their life immersed in music,( I think being a musician can also help align with this perspective, which is something you alluded to if not outright said). I think that possibly some people hear your pointing to the Progressive ethic or mode, being active in some movement forward in music, manifesting within the work of some given band or artist, as you saying that said piece of work is ‘better’ than some band that they were into at some corresponding time, which of course is not what you’re saying.
Talking of which, having listened to the ‘Singularity’ album by your band ‘Rain’, I can attest to you having successfully avoided some of the traits you seem to have identified as perhaps undesirable,( to you at least, and I would certainly second it), within the Neo-Prog and Progressive-Metal worlds.
I was concerned at one point in one track that you were about to spin off into ‘Regular Fries’ territory but you kept it just on the right side of that particular perimeter thank God 😉😉
I listened to it in between binge watching ‘His Dark Materials’ so it was consumed against an appropriate background environment lol
Good stuff and as expected, a high level of musicianship.
Thanks for listening. The idea we had was that it starts in Neo Prog territory, then moves to more classic prog, then wacky prog, then actual prog....
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I can kind of see that, but within the individual tracks certain harmonic and/or melodic choices seem to buck that trend or concept….. which is absolutely fine by me 👍
Because it sold a lot doesn’t mean that it is cutting edge or that progressive. Coryell, Tony Williams Lifetime, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Mahavishnu these are the bands that made the genre. They didn’t sell millions yet were cutting edge, the middle of you will between rock and jazz
Miles, Herbie, Mahavishnu did sell millions. That is why we are still talking about this genre.
First of all, thank you very much for adressing this gigantic task, trully appreciated. I did learn a lot from you recollection, and I think part of the success of the whole endeavour comes from the fact that you are a schollar and also a musician who has participated in the prog movement. That said, I have a couple of points to make. First, it seems to me that Pink Floyd is overrepresented in your history. Not only because ELP 1st is more relevant to prog than Atom Heart Mother, but also because they never departed much from the blues territory, even with the 7/8s and the occasional jazz harmonies by Rick Wright. The second reserve I have is when you put album sales in the equation to rank records, which seems pretty un-proggy to me. Lastly, even when your disclaimer states that this is your opinion only, the lack of mention of prog bands or records from outside UK and USA is a real downer. I don't pretend you go as far as to study Argentinian bands like Crucis, Alas, Invisible or La Maquina de Hacer Pájaros. Much closer to home you have the massive Italian Prog movement which envolves dozens of bands, some of which (like PFM) sold a lot of records! I hope I don't get punished for this. I already inflicted that punishment myself by watching The Life an Death of Colonel Blimp!
I preferred Italian (prog) rock music much more than the English in the 70's.
But for the story Andy has to tell it is sufficient and correct to confine it to the Anglo-Saxon Prog Rock business.
And in this context it is also forgivable that he does not speak about something he knows nothing about.
So that not only PFM has to be used for Italian prog rock, another group as a listening tip:
Pierrot lunaire --Gudrun
and I will check an Argentinian ;-)
I think he was very unbiased in regards to Floyd's legacy... You forget he isn't a fan of Floyd
to be continued ...
Bela Fleck!
Must have missed it, but surely The Alan Parson’s Project were important prog in the late 70’s early 80’s? Just saying 😁
Yes...good call out...missed him...the definition of great post punk prog
So you have these prog bands that are continuing to progress, and someone like Andy Edwards comes along and says 'there's too much progression'. Major progressive rock releases in 1974 aren't sounding like the stuff made in 1972, and therefore the classic prog era has apparently ended. He really seems fixed with the idea that the best prog came out between 1970-1973. But what is driving this belief? He's heard this elsewhere, and he's parroting.
Really enjoyed this series but amount of ads on this episode made me turn off. sorry.
Sucks?
You know what you should do if you haven't done so already. Design two music appreciation courses (or maybe merge them into one course) on the history of progressive rock and other on the history of fusion. That would be awesome,
This would be the course:
Buy Bitches Brew by Miles Davis
Listen to it everyday, but only listen to the grooves, not the solos
Wait...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer
Funny you said that because I did listen to it just two days ago. Very interesting music. It didn't sound like what we think of fusion but more like slightly experimental Jazz mixed in with psychedelic music.