It's good to hear from you again. Due to my job, I visit a lot of bars, restaurants, motels, and other businesses, though not as a customer. It is jarring when I go to a bar several times in one week and I see the same people drinking there at different times of day, day in, day out. It's as if they have feel like they have nothing else to do. If you're not looking to buy things in a store, there really isn't much else to do in many towns, especially at night.
Well summarized! The importance of this subject matter almost can't be overstated. Third places serves vital functions in arguably all healthy human communities.
I just heard you on CBC radio. I have not read any of your work..only just listened to this video. 1. Could you pls make a reading list of some of us interested in this field to get up to speed? will add bowling alone as a start. 2. I think about similar things from a living around the world, economics training, pro social bent, mental health training. A few comments: 2a. I live in the most walkable part of Vancouver Canada which is one of the most walkable cities in the world. Yet, people often feel very isolated and disconnected here. There are plenty of 3rd spaces...parks, libraries, saunas... but feeling connected takes work here as has been oft noted. My perception is--it is less the mode of transport (car vs feet, bikes) and spaces, but also TIME, basic economics (cost of living), and population. People here face such high costs of living they are pretty much always in a hurry and have very little free time to linger and invest in connections--so much goes to the grind and the commute, even if it is not in car. The friends one does make often move away eventually due to said high cost of living as they tire of living in a tiny apartment and want more space, so there is a transient feeling to connections as only a certain type of person can afford to live in my area (young worker putting all their money to rent). This cramp of housing cost also limits some socializing that could normally happen at home--shared chat about gardens or fixing things with a neighbour, having family over for dinner or over night guests...it is just too cramped. Population size matters too---there are so many people the likelihood of seeing them again goes down and the investment too goes down--so chance encounters are often avoided and people look at the ground when passing, instead of saying hello. The grocer I go to for years does not remember me as they have thousands of customers. I can spend the entire day feeling anonymous--as do many (I have family here so I'm fine just saying this is my observation and it is not uncommon). The way homes are built is also a problem, in that the few people you could build community with due to frequency of seeing them--your neighbours--are often in their own little boxes facing outwards. A man in my building recently passed away and many people had never met him..only 7 units in the whole place, been here 40 years, but few places to interact--no shared garden, no shared lobby. Buildings in other countries often are built to have share spaces. 2b. I recently spent the past two years in a small town on Vancouver Island...Ladysmith it is called. Wow, talk about community. Here is the thing, one of the few things I didn't like about the town was it is a car culture place. One needs a car to get there and transit is pretty non existent. But there is a picturesque downtown that everyone drives to, squares, parks, halls, sauna, gym etc. There is plain and simple something different about people there..with just 8k residents, and all of them having a 5 minute commute..I perceived that people have more time there. Whether at the grocery, the pharmacy, the gym, the sauna, or with a neighbour--everyone had more time to talk. People engaged me, got to know me, followed up with me, offered to help me. I had more friends and contacts there in one year than 8 in my Vancouver apartment. It related to having a house--and seeing my neighbours, a smaller population where people felt more connected that they would see you again and thus behaved differently---and also some demographic features of down home blue collar folk who were not up for the rat race and who truly valued community. Cost of living is a huge factor too as there were families and one income homes where perhaps the adults had a bit more leisure time, and seniors were active in community building. But interestingly--I needed a car there and often it was less walkable...just wanted to point that out because Vancouver is much more walkable--fewer than 50% of millenials even have a car here cuz you don't need it---but it is more lonely due to cost, transient nature of people, business, culture etc. 2c I have lived in many places in the world, some big, some small. I have lived in some expat communities where the low cost of living for the expats afforded them more leisure time and there was a self selection effect of the type of person living there but community was very easy to make there. I also lived in a small town in Indonesia..horrendous car culture, no sidewalks, walking anywhere is dangerous. But the Balinese have the most beautiful social culture that weaves community into everything they do with regular gathering. Just living in the village I was part of the community. Perhaps they could give us a few tips 2d. also spent time in Montreal where people were very friendly and I could probably find a connection there to again cost of living as rents were insanely low when I was there...thus more room for free time and connecting not just working? and they were known for their free spaces and their warm culture (As long as you speak French). So clearly it all intersects...spaces, cost, size of population, culture, socio political views and so on I look forward to the reading list. thank you!
on the sauna note: this is often a third space, it doesn't require commerce and people are there to linger and often to connect. I notice in the small island town sauna, people get to know all about you and follow up with you when you go "hey where you been? haven't seen you in a while. is your cat feeling better?" . I notice in the big city there can be no talking, even rules about no talking, some of which is reflective of racial issues (people not wanting others to speak between themselves in languages other than english..). So the existence of the third space is the same...it is a sauna everywhere..but the use of it and outcome of it is very different based on other factors... Also I do recall going to California and struggling to find a place to just hang and rest a while. There were so few public benches or grassy knolls. I was asked to move along by a security guard for resting in public and finally had to go to the nearest university campus to take a nap on the grass. It was exhausting to feel such a lack of public safe space compared to Canada.
The suburbs have existed since World War II and there were plenty of third places within walking distance there for decades. You can't blame the death of neighborhood block parties or going to the local fair or the park on the rise of online shopping the way you can with the death of malls. Retail may have been squeezed into specific areas due to zoning, but everyone owned a car, so it literally didn't matter, and even if it did, all non-retail third places were still completely untouched by this. The lack of third places today really has a lot more to do with our overvaluing of convenience and following the path of least resistance to obtain what we need in order to live, which has unknowingly removed our access to social fulfillment, because we no longer "need" other people the way we used to. It's really that simple -- and although social media and cell phones are a big part of the problem today, it arguably started with the invention of VHS and the VCR, or even television, which are things that existed in both suburbia and in cities. Or you can go back even further and state that, America being a nation of immigrants, the parents of baby boomers were often first or second generation Americans who had to rely on their neighbors in hugely important ways overseas when dealing with threats of genocide or displacement or war or poverty. Or if they were Americans going all the way back along their family trees, they probably still had memories from the Great Depression lingering when having kids in the 50's and 60's which instinctively brought them to sticking with older traditions of being close with neighbors and hanging out in public. As technology progressed, and those memories of more traditional times faded, boomers and their offspring began losing firsthand knowledge of those things, until all that remains is where we are today. Besides, cities are ugly, overcrowded, noisy, polluted, and full of smug hipsters who think that the epitome of socializing is frequenting trendy bars and stupid comedy clubs. Give me block parties, carnivals, arcades, and malls any day over that.
As a disabled person who cannot drive, I'd LOVE a 15-minute city. It's so isolating...
It's good to hear from you again. Due to my job, I visit a lot of bars, restaurants, motels, and other businesses, though not as a customer. It is jarring when I go to a bar several times in one week and I see the same people drinking there at different times of day, day in, day out. It's as if they have feel like they have nothing else to do. If you're not looking to buy things in a store, there really isn't much else to do in many towns, especially at night.
Well summarized! The importance of this subject matter almost can't be overstated. Third places serves vital functions in arguably all healthy human communities.
I just heard you on CBC radio. I have not read any of your work..only just listened to this video.
1. Could you pls make a reading list of some of us interested in this field to get up to speed? will add bowling alone as a start.
2. I think about similar things from a living around the world, economics training, pro social bent, mental health training. A few comments:
2a. I live in the most walkable part of Vancouver Canada which is one of the most walkable cities in the world. Yet, people often feel very isolated and disconnected here. There are plenty of 3rd spaces...parks, libraries, saunas... but feeling connected takes work here as has been oft noted. My perception is--it is less the mode of transport (car vs feet, bikes) and spaces, but also TIME, basic economics (cost of living), and population. People here face such high costs of living they are pretty much always in a hurry and have very little free time to linger and invest in connections--so much goes to the grind and the commute, even if it is not in car. The friends one does make often move away eventually due to said high cost of living as they tire of living in a tiny apartment and want more space, so there is a transient feeling to connections as only a certain type of person can afford to live in my area (young worker putting all their money to rent). This cramp of housing cost also limits some socializing that could normally happen at home--shared chat about gardens or fixing things with a neighbour, having family over for dinner or over night guests...it is just too cramped. Population size matters too---there are so many people the likelihood of seeing them again goes down and the investment too goes down--so chance encounters are often avoided and people look at the ground when passing, instead of saying hello. The grocer I go to for years does not remember me as they have thousands of customers. I can spend the entire day feeling anonymous--as do many (I have family here so I'm fine just saying this is my observation and it is not uncommon). The way homes are built is also a problem, in that the few people you could build community with due to frequency of seeing them--your neighbours--are often in their own little boxes facing outwards. A man in my building recently passed away and many people had never met him..only 7 units in the whole place, been here 40 years, but few places to interact--no shared garden, no shared lobby. Buildings in other countries often are built to have share spaces.
2b. I recently spent the past two years in a small town on Vancouver Island...Ladysmith it is called. Wow, talk about community. Here is the thing, one of the few things I didn't like about the town was it is a car culture place. One needs a car to get there and transit is pretty non existent. But there is a picturesque downtown that everyone drives to, squares, parks, halls, sauna, gym etc. There is plain and simple something different about people there..with just 8k residents, and all of them having a 5 minute commute..I perceived that people have more time there. Whether at the grocery, the pharmacy, the gym, the sauna, or with a neighbour--everyone had more time to talk. People engaged me, got to know me, followed up with me, offered to help me. I had more friends and contacts there in one year than 8 in my Vancouver apartment. It related to having a house--and seeing my neighbours, a smaller population where people felt more connected that they would see you again and thus behaved differently---and also some demographic features of down home blue collar folk who were not up for the rat race and who truly valued community. Cost of living is a huge factor too as there were families and one income homes where perhaps the adults had a bit more leisure time, and seniors were active in community building. But interestingly--I needed a car there and often it was less walkable...just wanted to point that out because Vancouver is much more walkable--fewer than 50% of millenials even have a car here cuz you don't need it---but it is more lonely due to cost, transient nature of people, business, culture etc.
2c I have lived in many places in the world, some big, some small. I have lived in some expat communities where the low cost of living for the expats afforded them more leisure time and there was a self selection effect of the type of person living there but community was very easy to make there. I also lived in a small town in Indonesia..horrendous car culture, no sidewalks, walking anywhere is dangerous. But the Balinese have the most beautiful social culture that weaves community into everything they do with regular gathering. Just living in the village I was part of the community. Perhaps they could give us a few tips
2d. also spent time in Montreal where people were very friendly and I could probably find a connection there to again cost of living as rents were insanely low when I was there...thus more room for free time and connecting not just working? and they were known for their free spaces and their warm culture (As long as you speak French). So clearly it all intersects...spaces, cost, size of population, culture, socio political views and so on
I look forward to the reading list.
thank you!
on the sauna note: this is often a third space, it doesn't require commerce and people are there to linger and often to connect. I notice in the small island town sauna, people get to know all about you and follow up with you when you go "hey where you been? haven't seen you in a while. is your cat feeling better?" . I notice in the big city there can be no talking, even rules about no talking, some of which is reflective of racial issues (people not wanting others to speak between themselves in languages other than english..). So the existence of the third space is the same...it is a sauna everywhere..but the use of it and outcome of it is very different based on other factors...
Also I do recall going to California and struggling to find a place to just hang and rest a while. There were so few public benches or grassy knolls. I was asked to move along by a security guard for resting in public and finally had to go to the nearest university campus to take a nap on the grass. It was exhausting to feel such a lack of public safe space compared to Canada.
I’ve just recently Come to the realization as to why I had a general malaise about where I live and it’s all due to car dependent infrastructure
The suburbs have existed since World War II and there were plenty of third places within walking distance there for decades. You can't blame the death of neighborhood block parties or going to the local fair or the park on the rise of online shopping the way you can with the death of malls. Retail may have been squeezed into specific areas due to zoning, but everyone owned a car, so it literally didn't matter, and even if it did, all non-retail third places were still completely untouched by this. The lack of third places today really has a lot more to do with our overvaluing of convenience and following the path of least resistance to obtain what we need in order to live, which has unknowingly removed our access to social fulfillment, because we no longer "need" other people the way we used to. It's really that simple -- and although social media and cell phones are a big part of the problem today, it arguably started with the invention of VHS and the VCR, or even television, which are things that existed in both suburbia and in cities.
Or you can go back even further and state that, America being a nation of immigrants, the parents of baby boomers were often first or second generation Americans who had to rely on their neighbors in hugely important ways overseas when dealing with threats of genocide or displacement or war or poverty. Or if they were Americans going all the way back along their family trees, they probably still had memories from the Great Depression lingering when having kids in the 50's and 60's which instinctively brought them to sticking with older traditions of being close with neighbors and hanging out in public. As technology progressed, and those memories of more traditional times faded, boomers and their offspring began losing firsthand knowledge of those things, until all that remains is where we are today.
Besides, cities are ugly, overcrowded, noisy, polluted, and full of smug hipsters who think that the epitome of socializing is frequenting trendy bars and stupid comedy clubs. Give me block parties, carnivals, arcades, and malls any day over that.