THE PATCHZERGS - Brood Lord Infestors era in StarCraft 2 esports
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2024
- BitByBit insane story - • YOU NEEDED ONLY ONE ST...
First GSL champion - • The first GSL StarCraf...
Longest worst game ever - • The WORLD RECORD longe...
🔹 Support the channel - www.donationalerts.com/r/espo...
🔹Reddit page - / bassetyt
🔹Twitter page - / bassetsc2
🔹 Discord server - / discord
🔹 PSISTORM Patreon - / membership
Timecodes:
00:00 A small change, huge consequences
00:21 Why and How Zerg was the weakest race
02:46 How Zerg became the IMBA/OP race
04:27 Why Terrans couldn't win lategame ZvT
05:55 How Protoss learnt to counter Zerg players
06:20 The Archon Toilet
08:56 The Soul Train
11:10 What StarCraft 2 2012 esports looked like
12:11 ZombieGrub on balance in 2012
12:40 How did it end?
Clip taken from @ZombieGrub channel
Music:
1) Horror Criminal Thriller Podcast by Cold Cinema [No Copyright Music] / True Crime - • Horror Criminal Thrill...
2) "Ancient Trials" by Mark Hutson - • 🕵️ Free Spy Suspense M...
#sc2
#starcraft
#starcraft2
#esports 
Игры
BitByBit insane story - ruclips.net/video/3cM3dzFzukg/видео.html
First GSL champion - ruclips.net/video/AJuQ1qasqNg/видео.html
Longest worst game ever - ruclips.net/video/RkXpxoXCNlY/видео.html
Timecodes:
00:00 A small change, huge consequences
00:21 Why and How Zerg was the weakest race
02:46 How Zerg became the IMBA/OP race
04:27 Why Terrans couldn't win lategame ZvT
05:55 How Protoss learnt to counter Zerg players
06:20 The Archon Toilet
08:56 The Soul Train
11:10 What StarCraft 2 2012 esports looked like
12:11 ZombieGrub on balance in 2012
12:40 How did it end?
It's too bad that the balancers approach was simply to remove abilities perceived as OP from the game, rather than adjusting them with subtlety to bring them to a better equilibrium. Infested Terrans are a bit part of the lore that are noticeably absent from recent versions of SC2.
They just had to remove the bonus effects of upgrades from infested terrans. That was it.
The problem with ITs was that there was no way to feasibly balance them being ranged free units. They cost nothing, had decent range and any trade at all, however "bad" they might have been, was always a good trade because you're always trading something (minerals/gas - finite) for nothing (energy, which is renewable).
This means that they were either so weak that they weren't worth using ever, or so strong that you almost always wanted to use them, such to the point that we quite literally saw games where once Infestors were out, you would ONLY see ITs from the Zerg, and there was nothing a Protoss or Terran player could do to against it.
@@Miro_X There kind of the opportunity cost though, you could raise the ability's energy cost and make it a bigger investment
Sc2 is simply not as fun to watch anymore imo. I loved seeing a heat seeking missile splash damage explode 20 concentrated Mutalisks in one hit for example. Many crazy shenanigans are lost. Nexus got buffed, then nerfed and stripped of the abilities it got etc.
@@Miro_X Technically they could take the path like Interceptors and cost minerals to make.
man i cant believe how much great stuff you putting out in such a short amount of time. respect.
Came here to say exactly this, dude is crushing it
Yeah man, true legend
If I recall correctly, after the famous ghost snipes vs Brood lords. Blizzard nerfed Snipe and ghosts quite heavily. It took time until Snipe was buffed/changed.
they raced to nerf snipe while still letting winfestors poison the game for months iirc
Honestly this is the most important story of StarCraft 2 and I thank you for retelling it. Blizzard was incredibly boneheaded in the first several years of SC2, they were very, very slow to change course about things the community was pretty much united about.
Their lack of action was why I stopped watching after Sniper won. He was not the best player in that tournament not by a longshot but he won because he was the best zerg at the time . Its hard to watch or care about a game when it is in such a state. Especially one that for a long time was the pinacle, the crown jewel of e-sports.
It's because it was blatantly obvious that the other races had better units. It's just that the higher skilled players gravitated towards zerg. Eventually they adjusted their views, and realized they had to not just adjust unit balance, but also adjust for terran lack of skill. Terran is the entry level race that everyone starts off in. Some get promoted out of it, some get stuck there. Eventually those low-ambition terrans get pretty good, just not zerg good.
I remember broodlord infestor vividly. Even now I still occasionally hear people wanting to go back to it as if it was the most balanced point in the game. The only other point in time balance was that bad was after the widow mine nerf which literally removed Terran players from tournaments for around 9 months.
OH NO MY WIDOW MINES! SO MUCH MICRO! Burrow and forget is so good!
@@x8sNaKe8x salty Zerg player right here
@@mafuran8840 but it's true. Terrans should require way more APM to pull off. No sieging your tanks and libs aren't micro. No your ghosts aren't that hard to control. You literally have everything handed to you; GGthors, Wincruisers, and whatever the fuck Ghosts were.
@@abyssalzei552 how much more salty can you get with those unit names?
@@abyssalzei552 LOL, keep up w/the names, they are hilarious!! xD
9:35 Used to love Wolf's casting over on Teamleague. That was probably my favorite tournament of all time. The Team Salmon bros had amazing energy and chemistry.
Do you guys remember when parting ran through that tourny with NOTHING but immoetal sentry all in? That was so epic
do you know what tournament. I didnt play when parting was on top of toss so id love to see a tournament he dominated.
@@verybigbrain723 Mid 2010s. I remember it back in the day. It wasn't just PartinG. Every toss was doing Immortal/sentry vs zerg in HotS
"Passive" and "Zerg" are two words that never should have been in the same sentence.
True, but that's what Blizz made them :(
Why not? Zerg IS passive on macro level in the way that they have to know what their opponents are doing to decide what to hatch with the larvae.
Yeah, I think "reactive" is more what was meant.
@@Telopead it dosen't make sense lore wise, I don't see another reason
@@tesculeanuandrei6744 what about adaptable?
The player itself, at the macro level, has to adapt to the circumstances... just like the zerg just adapt to eat minerals and slurp gas.
So GSL used to operate on a subscription model where higher video resolutions and VOD viewing were locked behind a $15/season paywall, making it effectively mandatory for non-nocturnal (and non-torrenting) NA viewers. I distinctly remember canceling my subscription and complaining to GOMtv that Brood Lord-Infestor was my reason for quitting. No one in their right mind would want to pay money for that awfulness.
It got so bad that Fungal being turned into a dodgeable projectile was actually touted by Blizzard as a new feature in HOTS in an effort to bring people back. They really needed to patch that in during WOTL rather than waiting for the expansion to stop people from leaving in the first place.
Community asked for lurkers to be the zerg siege. But instead they made the horrible swarm host. Community asked for a terran late game unit... But nope, have hellbat and widow mine. Man I wish this game had a different developer after release
Blizzard took Tywin Lannister's line "A lion doesn't concern with the opinions of the sheep" way too seriously.
ghost counters all zerg units, and is only mid-game. Not sure what the problem was. Siege tank outranges anything zerg. It's impressive how much worse terran players were than zerg players. BC-turret counters everything late game. Thor counters everything late game. Terran have a massive eco advantage with orbitals and better defensive units. Not sure how they ever lose other than lacking skill. even bio + raven counters everything late game. Terrans have never had anything to complain about at any stage of the balance history. If a terran ever gets the skill to manage ghost+raven at the same time in addition to their main army, they will never lose again. Meanwhile zerg has to use 3-5 spellcasters to even have a chance.
@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd Dude, ghosts were slower. Thor didn't even had the anti air anti capital ship mode. We had a lot of patchzergs at the end of WoL that were gone once HotS kicked in.
@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd Sounds salty... when Zerg literally have a way to counter and by counter I mean 100% neutralize absolutely everything Terran has. Also added that Terran is the only race that wins not because of it's inferior units but ebcause their players are better. Literally if the Terran player doesn't play perfectly he loses against anyone of similar skill. One slip up and your whole army is gone. Ohh yeah and theya re the only race that literally have a unit that get useless after 5 minutes of gameplay and is yet to be buffed back...all because ByuN was too good at the game with it. SC balance has always been if zerg can't win we need to balance it out, if Terran has something strong we have to balance it out. Terran has been nerfed out of competitive torunaments at least twice for periods of 6+ months.
If anything imo Protoss are losing more then they should because their players are maybe not good enough at the highest level. Granted they don't have many options to play with and untill the amove deathball they do require a lot of micro.
@@Galloglaoch terran can also counter everything zerg has, the game is supposed to be that way. I feel so sorry for protoss. I watch games it it just seems like they have no tools other than tools for getting away. The players don't look skilled because they have nothing to work with. I used to root for terran against protoss but they are such an underdog they won me over. I agree that terrans are stupid for building reapers, and hellions both. Losing their entire army for looking away is complete bs though, it happens more to the other races vs terran.
It's jarring to look at that 2012 tournament with 4 terrans (0 Korean lol) 15 zergs and 13 toss. Incredible balance lol. People are whining about balance and always will but it used to be so much worse
5:15 I can't believe how terrible the players were back then.
Compare that composition versus what you see now and the ghost control in late game TvZ and it's an insane difference.
That whole Zerg attack was pretty terrible - everything going on a single axis, no simultaneous runby on the planetary fortress in the open, and the banes being move-commanded and then stopping.
Broods basically killed themselves, mvp didnt do anything impressive there
I know. Terrans had ghost and couldn't deal with infestors? Lolz. ghost was S tier, infestors were B tier.
@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd broodlord infestor had too much range to let ghosts or anything else get close, ofc if the zerg just amoves everything like in that clip then everything works
I was a GM zerg player and this is when I left SC2 even though I was consistently winning. Went from being able to play aggressive, use multiprong attacks and timings to a boring static defense play style until the late game. Every ZVT and ZVP last minimum 30 minutes and eventually just ended up being corruptor, infester, broodlord plus 100 spines and spores. Even though it was boring it was hard to justify playing anything else vs a turtling player. I came back after HOTS and it was worse, the mothership core and swarm host made me quit SC2 for good.
thank you for documenting all the SC2 history.
Thanks for the video . Quite interesting one !
I’ve been watching several of your videos, and I’ve got to give compliments for your scripts, storytelling and topics. It’s really a great set of productions!
Really cool video! Would love to see one on the mass swarm host meta at the end of HotS!
The Archon Toilet was a fantastic era of Starcraft 2.
dude watching this made me nostalgic for old wol sc2 , now i wanna see a gsl hosted on the old version to see how the pros would play them now and see if things really were imba or if there's still more beauty of depth to be found in the strategies c: .....
I´d love an analysis like this of the current state of the game.
We'll have after the patch I guess
Wow this is great, thanks!!
I love this videos, I save them to watch later with time but I surely enjoy them all, and yeah I remember that era quite well, the "PatchZerg" was reaallly true.
I think it makes a lot of sense that zerg swarm will own everything if you allow it to grow.
Good video and cheers for putting in my passionate drunk speech about it haha
Yeah it was nice listening to you! :)
Finally an archon toilet mention!!!!!! Thank you! Ill stop askkng :)
Great content sir, love it. Thank you!
I can't decide which era was worse: GGlord+Investor or 2Base Blink.
I think right now the imbalance is at an all time high, in favor of terran. They are worse so it's not obvious. They look like pros against another race of crappier units, but TvT looks like a slop fest. Then a terran figures something out (Oliviera) and rolls everyone with a combination of skill and imbalance. The skill was more pre game strategy, and less actual unit control, but I'm sure he was still good there. Just not zerg-good.
Gglords was worse,
Zerg have the best scouts. Zerg know if the opponent drop B3 with one fast zergling or an overlord. Zerg can also scout the whole main base with one suicide overlord and it cost less than a scan + it force the opponent to show the units + it moves, so it cover more ground than a scan. It is very hard to cheeze a zerg because you need a whole setup and zerg have eyes everywhere. Why do the best foreigners have always been zerg ? Because of the easy scout and fast reactions of the race. Protoss and terran need well planned setup and its a lot of work.
Back then, did any pro off race to Zerg? I can't recall. Compared to now that Terran and Zerg pros are practicing off racing Protoss, and even using it in tournaments (Reynor, Maru, Dark, Scarlett).
Only Raynor actually used Protoss in serious tournaments for a substantial amount of time. But he kinda gave up, I think it was after he lost to Serral hard in PvZ. Besides, they have no reason to, Protoss is not favored at all at the highest level. Her0 is the only one that sneaks in from time to time.
Maru just uses it to style on people, more specifically percival
MorroW who was one of the best Terran at the very beginning did the switch, never recovered from it
great video
Fungal Growth at that time is so OP that it takes one mistake to spell defeat for you.
How do you have time to make videos this quick? Awesome job mate, but don't get burned out. I wanna keep watching videos a year from now :)
This is genuinely when I lost interest in not just the game but the proscene entirely and moved onto other games, absolutely lived and breathed the scene up to that point. Sniper won a fucking GSL for gods sake🤦
Love this
I endured through all of WoL. All the BLfestor bullshit as a terran player and having to deal with people saying "but look at the stats!!", but when HotS came arouns and this nightmare was replaced with something arguably worse I just dropped the game completely. There was just no hope for the balance team to do anything good or deal with these problems in an acceptable time.
I still don't understand how they allowed this to happen, we had Stasis Field, plague and Ensnare during the BW days and somehow the devs knew how to more or less properly balance those without causing 4 hour grindfests, or hyper-volatile 1 battle in the middle of the map and you lose fights for a huge portion of a game's lifetime.
You forget two things - one, patches were far less common - things that were issues remained issues. Two, pathing, maps and game mechanics were very different in BW.
You spent more time fighting the game than actually playing your opponent because unit pathing was legitimately insane and large aoe spells were only vaguely effective because units almost never, ever clumped up together as a direct result of that pathing. Units could fire from low to high ground without vision - albeit with a random "miss" chance. You couldn't control group more than one structure at a time. You couldn't control group more than 12 units at a time. SCVs, probes, and drones had different HP. You started with 4 workers, and frankly many, many other differences.
SC2 is by and large a *completely* different game.
Blizzard has never shown themselves to be any good at balancing competitive games at all and to this day I'm convinced that the balance state of BW was more luck than anything else.
Please do something on sOs at some point. My favorite player and the guy who kept me watching SC2 even way after I started to get bored with the game. When he retired, it was basically it for me. I still watch broodwar and warcraft3, but sc2 for some reason is just not that entertaining anymore.
Eh, I think I stopped playing sc2 ranked matches around 2012. I wonder what the meta is right now? I loved hydralisks back then, but they felt super situational
I remember the final of the last GSL of WoL was Zerg vs Zerg, Brood Lords/Infestors vs Brood Lords/Infestors. Fun time.
This plus seeing the design of the swarm host for HotS made me quit SC2.
"I think swarm hosts are bad for the game." -Scarlet
right now I think swarm hosts are perfect. You use them when it suits you, but not all the time. This is the ideal.
I will never not love that squirtle archon toilet
saw some old games where some player makes locusts and infested terrans to overwhelm the opponent. truly the zerg golden age
im talking about zerg overwhelming opponents with its units creating units. if its a joke then have fun.
In theory easy for terrans to deal with. Ghosts can 1 shot either swarm host or infestor. Around the same cost. Liberators would also wreck that as the terrans take time to hatch, and the other can't shoot air. Then of course BC would steam roll that. Protoss could destroy it very easily with colossus. The ultimate problem is that the best players picked the zerg race.
some of the stuff they patched out of the game were really bonkers in hindsight
and what a great addition ravagers were. good tools early to mid, not game breaking in the long run
Yeah ravagers made the ZvP much much better
I used to Master Random back in the day of Hots, and oh boy the insta fungal is probably the most broken thing ever - this is my personal opinion. With all other crazy things, there are still something you can do about it, or it is just straight up boring. However insta fungal is just on another level, you just cant do anything about it. Once it connects, gg.
I agree that the fungal was powerful. Probably not worst ever. I go with steady targeting for that. You can erase a 200 gas unit in one shot, or take away 1/3-1/2 of the health of the entire protoss army, and put it with AA missile. It outranges most things. In that era ghosts or BC could literally 1-shot infestors at greater range, and somehow the infestor was the imba unit?
I wonder why Terran vehicle upgrades were removed in HotS?
I do really miss not playing during mother ship core being in the game. Honestly kinda dumb it got removed
MVP's face at 8:29😆
I don't know what was worse, BL + infestor or the hots release swarm host.
The HOTS release Swarm Host is even worse. It turned many games into a slogfest.
@@razorback9999able At the very least, Terran bio countered SH well enough to keep the match from turning into a trench war in the first place, and ZvZ had some reasonable counterplay options that were doable by an average (or perhaps slightly-above, but by no means master) player. Protoss or Terran mech vs Zerg though were torture, with Protoss' only option to avoid the slog being a Blink Stalker all-in (itself being stupidly busted before its nerf), and mech had pretty much no way to avoid the slog (though it had an almost equally braindead, infinite value answer to SHs in the form of mass Ravens)
BL/Infestor I'd still say was worse, since was nearly braindead to use and had no real way to counter it that didn't require way more skill and effort to execute than BL/Inf itself did. BL/Inf catapulted mediocre players into the pro scene in a way that no other broken unit or composition ever has
@@BroadwayRonMexico I'd argue that Swarm Hosts be removed from multiplayer entirely because the concept of free units is too OP that heavily impacts the metagame. Another reason I support this removal is that turning a fast-paced game into a slog doesn't fit in SC2's game design. Speaking of free units, I'd suggest that Broodling's lifespan from BLs be reduced as well (which Blizzard did in the latest patch)
The main issue with playing against BL/Infestors at that time is the Infestor's Fungal Growth. This single ability is instant cast that immobilizes and deals damage over time to affected units. Being caught by Fungal is a devastating loss, especially when the Brood Lords come and finish off your trapped units with Broodlings. There is little to no viable counterplay against them in the lategame other than a perfectly timed Vortex + Archon toilet.
@@razorback9999able That just proves my point that BL/Infestor was the worse era for the meta. That said, while Archon toilet was by far the most reliable way to beat BL/Inf, some plays involving Vikings/Ghosts for Terran, and Sentry forcefields for Protoss, but they required a lot of luck and/or significant skill differential to pull off (which goes back to my point about the busted comp carrying a lot of mediocre Zerg players in pro tournaments who had no business being there)
Swarm Hosts were bad design and a mistake, but they didn't have the same degree of total meta dominance that Broods+Infestors had. It was never fun to play against, but there were multiple viable strategies to deal with it. Most matches weren't the hour+ long snoozers the era is infamous for, but when the matches were long, they were LONG, and with mech being in vogue at the time, mech TvZ matches were both very common and the worst offenders. SHs weren't busted or OP, but they did still make PvZ and mech TvZ incredibly boring to both play and watch most of the time
This is where I checked out out ranked, loved StarCraft but I just lost all drive to actually play with some knew borked thing for one of the factions every update. DOTA 2 swayed me with its active and community who didn't tolerate the cognitive dissonance of pretending there wasn't an artificial advantage from some bullshit patch.
Blizzard had a lot to learn when it came to balancing, a shame since they made such good RTS games.
Waiting for the Skytoss video
From what you said, and showed, the Ghost was a hard counter to Brood Lord/Infestor - stays in cloak, then snipes down the Broodlords. Was it a skill issue, in that back in the day not enough people were good enough to do this ?
Had to be careful, one fungal and you were dead. Had to snipe and EMP on point.
@@lukeclarke267 Yup, it was a skill issue. They had scans at this point, but they weren't building anywhere near enough CCs to be using them to trade Ghost energy for gas. Army splitting also appeared to be not in the meta.
@@ianwhitchurch864
It was not skill issue, it was 100% balance issue.
You could still put serral play against Maru in that old patch and serral would very easily win 100 out of 100 games.
@@tomhe286 Pre patch 1.4.3, Snipe did 45 damage, and could be cast from under cloak. Maru would be Just Fine.
@@ianwhitchurch864 Clown take. Fungal used to anchor you to the ground. Ghosts used to deal 50 damage max to biological instead of 170.
I literally stopped playing sc2 cuz of this meta. But i still love the game, even got back to playing it again after 10 years.
wol pvz was actually really fun because zerg and protoss where really op in the late game if terran was op as well then starcraft is balanced because all races are overpowered then
Late WoL (the "ZvZcraft" era) was debatably the worst the game has ever been. Zerg lategame was so far beyond the other two that it wasn't even funny. Never have two units more centralized and dominated the meta more than during that time. Sure, a skilled Protoss player could shut down BL/INF, but it took way more skill on their part than the Zerg's part. Also, Terran was never more boring to play than it was during that era because their best early game aggression options were all nerfed to the ground, and there were only 4-6 viable units for mid and late game, with that being the same from wood league to pro (MMM+Tank with added use of Ghosts or Vikings as needed for counterplay). Most of WoL (but the later end especially) was hot garbage from a game balance/design perspective, and it's pretty much just a combination of nostalgia and the fact that the esports scene was so booming at the time that people remember it so fondly as the golden age
2014 HotS is the only competition with 2012 WoL for worst year as far as state of the game balance (most matches were either a 7-gate Blink Stalker all-in, or an hour+ long Swarm Host turtle match). Only reason I'd say it's slightly better than late WoL is because every race had at least one alternate playstyle you could use in at least some matchups to change things up (as a Terran player, I at least like having mech as an option, which wasn't the case in WoL)
I miss the archon toilet
Terran players when they can't make mass marine (And I mean pure marine not MMM not marine siege tank but actually pure marine) and win games and access tournaments: 😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢
Al this boils down to the simple fact that spellcasters are too good in this game and have too many abilities.
only if the player is good enough to handle them. Terrans can only build on of their spellcasters, while zergs are managing ~4. Protoss doesn't really have good spellcasters. Storm is just so lame. This is why protoss is good at lower levels, when people aren't using spells as much, but can't win tournaments.
This is the 480p'st 1080p video out there. 😅
Yeah the quality was bad in the old days :D
This meta almost killed sc2. The bias zerg players had was absurd. Blizzard was so focused on HotS that it let the game in this horrible meta for almost a year.
A year? HotS was a disaster for the entire meta, we all hoped LotV would save us from the boringness of static D + Swarmhost spam. Blizzard have no idea what they are doing.
Agreed
the game was balanced around units, buildings, abilities etc, but failed to consider that the best players would pick zerg.
@@chinogambino9375 They still don't, the idiots over there at Blizz have no clue how to balance anything.
I think that was no where near the disgusting level of infestors + nydus worm combo
RIP Incontrol
Zerg loses "GG"
Zerg wins "IMBA IMBA IMBA...."
Always the same. Still the same. It's people that never played Zerg competitively that call them OP without knowing how Zerg actually works and plays. No one has as much to do as a Zerg while having units so weak that you need 10 of one kind to make them count. There is no single Zerg unit that can give remotely the value of a BC, Carrier or Colossus.
I hated the broodlord infestor era, but I equally hated the 2 base protoss era. It wasn't just the immortal sentry all in, there was a bunch of variations (though the counter was pretty much the same everytime, ~44 drones and go roaches). 7-8 gate 1 gas all in, 2 colossus all in, blink all in, and some variation of immortals.
Yet Blizzards quickly nerfed it
@@ML-rs7we I can't recall blizzard ever nerfing it. It was more or less people getting good at defending against it. Like the entire swarm host era was basically 2 base protoss. It was like a cycle, where people finally got used to it, then a major tournament happens with some kind of variation, and it was back to 2 base protoss. I remember watching games with players like Parting and sOs, and as soon as a new variation came out, I would almost immediately see it on ladder.
Its kinds of similar to the period when roach-ling-bane all in was super strong. I vividly remember this because I abused the heck out of this build to get to gm with like a 70%+ win. However, it just got figured and it didn't work. Protoss 2 base was similar, but there were sooo many variations.
I don't remember which tournament, but there was a match where Scarlett used protoss against a zerg player, where she just 8 gated on 2 base. (completely unrelated but still a funny memory)
2 base all in or timing attack is really popular for terrans now instead. Besides, 2 base before was not the same as 2 base now. Before it took a longer time to mine out, it wasn't an all or nothing thing.
Also the map pool too. There were some really abusive maps during wol and hots that led to or forced some strategy. I do miss some of the maps tbh. Probably not viable today due to new units
it really was disappointing. this whole era of the game could have easily been avoided. this is going to get into *very* opinionative territory, but:
Blizzard just seemed _really_ scared that the BW units would be too strong in this game. i mean, just look at it by comparison.
siege tanks made 3 supply, meaning they can cover a lot less area and their damage is a lot less distributed. siege tank overkill in BW was already *massive* but this _heavily_ exacerbated the issue as the Siege Mode overall is *less* damage now, with fewer Siege Tanks that can pick different targets to distribute damage some. cost more gas. siege mode heavily nerfed, no longer doing full damage to shields (as all things did in BW). this meant that siege tanks could for example no longer peel off a Zealot's entire shield in 1 shot. it takes 2 in SC2.
Hydralisk 100% gas increase, no speed upgrade, slower on creep than bw upgraded counterpart. Made T2 tech. DPS is *actually lower* than their BW counterpart. Lurkers removed.
Zealot move speed heavily reduced when not charging compared to their BW counterpart. while charging its almost twice as fast as their upgraded BW counterpart but only for about 3.5 seconds every 10 seconds.
High Templar Psi Storm nerfed from 112 total damage to 80. no max energy upgrades means High Templar cant store as many psi storms, which was a key part of High Templar in BW. High Templar have Feedback which is a very problematic spell in general, as most of the targets at Wings launch are not dedicated spellcasters but instead are big bulky units that Feedback is a free 100 damage to (Thors, Battlecruisers). in BW it was a lot less problematic because the best targets for Feedback were all spellcasters, so it was used much like Irradiate to just be a free elimination of a spellcaster which is imo pretty fair in BW as Spellcasters are far, far stronger than in SC2.
Ultralisks *half* the speed on creep than their upgraded BW counterpart. although, the Ultralisk was fairly heavily redesigned overall in SC2, so this is not a huge deal.
Zergling attack speed *heavily* reduced, both baseline and with adrenal glands.
Just about the only units to be _objectively buffed_ in SC2 from BW are Marines, which got Combat Shield, and Carriers, which got the launch speed upgrade, but then Carriers also had their micro techniques from BW patched out, making this unit require almost no micro to use compared to the BW counterpart which is one of the _most_ micro-intensive units in the game.
they *seriously* did not want these BW units to be good *at all,* generally speaking. and i think this was a key issue that caused most of the main problems of SC2, because all of those units in BW are extremely good central backbone units, and SC2 does nothing to replace them at all. this left all the races in SC2 with gigantic holes in their arsenals all over the place that are vital for countering things thrown at the race. if these changes werent made, i dont think any of the terrible eras of SC2 would have existed at all. maybe some different, but much less problematic bad eras of the game would have existed instead, but it would not have been as bad.
nowadays, a lot of these changes have been either completely changed or made a lot less drastic. Zealots are *waaay* faster nowadays than they were at Wings launch. High Templar Feedback now has almost no options to use it against at all. Zerglings are still quite a bit nerfed compared to their BW counterpart but Adrenal was changed from a meager +20% attack speed to +40%. Hydralisks have 90hp, which helps make up their drastically increased cost, they have their speed upgrade finally which makes them more inline with their BW counterpart, and can finally morph into Lurkers again, which, while providing a totally different role in SC2, helps shape up Zerg's arsenal a bit better, especially mid to late game. Siege Tanks do a bit more base damage now, which helps against Zealots a little bit more. Zealots still totally hardcounter Siege Tanks, which is an almost total inverse from BW, but its not as much of a hardcounter as it was at Wings launch.
I do kinda believe that Zergs would have figured out safe ways to get to BL/infestor without the easier scouting in the patch.
Hard to say, it was a lot more difficult at those times. Perhaps it would be better if they just nerfed infestor earlier on
@@EsportsStoryteller Yeah I think the combo of nerfing infestor AND adding swarm hosts AND vipers was just... way too much. It was like Blizz were deliberately dictating the flow of gameplay on the basis of Zerg mid-lategame. As a Toss at the time I hated immortal sentry all ins AND blink all ins so I had fun trying to figure out ways to beat Zerg without those lol
I miss Vortrex
честно говоря я так и понял при чем тут скорость оверам и урон королевам.
Man, that shitty horse shoe map...so crappy. . . Kinda want to see it again :p
I hated the Sentry Immortal push era. It happened every single PvZ.
The answer is, Zerg are always the last to adapt, and wait until it's delivered on a plate to them. Every expansion they failed to read the game, lose because they are using old strategies and skills, whine and complain about the other races new toys. Yet do very little to adapt to it or change their own game until months after. They whine until Blizzard pumps them up from balanced (if they cared to learn the game and the new units) to winning the majority of tournaments, which is a Zergs safe space.
Watch those early GSL's and Zerg didn't even spread creep! Didn't figure out that more bases produced more larva, which made units to win games.
Example above. 5:35. MvP had Ghosts with cloak. Ghosts were within range of Zerg units. Nestea didn't bother with detection units. Didn't scout ahead, seeing Terran Vikings, Amoved forward without any anti-air. Loses all the Brood Lords. Zerg expects to Amove and win. Zerg loses. Zerg whines.
They Amoved around expecting to win, used Brood War tactics, expected a "10-minute no attack" rule so they could get to 80+ workers then steam roll over opponents, while Marine King was splitting marines, MvP was hitting hard constant attacks, and Terrans were using all the units in the arsenal, in addition to own unit splash damage which Zergs have never had to contend with even though their own units give splash damage. Even Protoss can damage their own units with Storm. Free units, no splash damage on own units and larva spam=Zerg win, win, win.
I remember the 2013 MLG Winter after HOTS came out, when the term "speedivacs" was coined in the Twitch chat, and widow mines where wined about. Zerg typically Amoved their death ball around while widow mines were on the field and were punished for it. "Speedivacs" they whined that they couldn't react fast enough to drops, even though they had overlords and creep spotting to give them time to react (hardly like the split seconds to react baneling run by is it?). They whined that they couldn't punish a drop by wiping out the Medivac with Muta's when it was exiting. Even though they failed to react to it and let it happen. Seriously, why should you get a free Medivac and troops because you failed to react or look at the minmap?
In the end a Zerg beat a Terran in the final, yet the whines led to more nerfs and buffs to make Zerg even more dominant. A complete disgrace of whining. There were only 2 Korean Zergs in that tournament and Zerg won! The Terrans were stacked with top tier Koreans. Flash, Innovation, jjajki, Polt, MvP, Bomber, Marine King, Taeja, and Thorzain was the best non-Korean Terran. Protoss only had a few Koreans. Terran was Stackasaurus Rex. Zerg had 2 worthy competitors, yet Zerg still whined because Liquid Ret didn't beat FLASH! and Innovation (who was on hot form) managed to beat an off the boil Leenock. (2013 MLG Winter)
It's nuts watching Zerg fans unable to compute why they didn't have a ZvZ finals by barely trying, and getting angry because they Amove a ball around a map. then get punished by it. It was a tough pill to swallow, that a Zerg had to put effort in to win. But that wasn't enough, it's never enough for a Zerg. They want "the swarm" happening on every thournement, and will whine until a consistent ZvZ finals happens.
Anyway, sooner or later Zerg learned how to "micro" against widow mines by splitting off Zerglings, and the game became better for it. And "Speedivacs" became a non-issue when Zerg were forced to react to the minimap.
They still whined because they had to share tournament wins and Blizzard buckled to the pressure, then we had the most boring era which lasted for over a year. Swarm hosts.
TL:DR: Maybe play some Zerg and try to play like Serral, Reynor or Dark and you'll soon notice that it's hard af and you'll better put some respect on the great Zerg player names just like Zerg put respect on Terran and Protoss player's names. The thing is I started with Zerg back in the day and when I switched to Terran or Protoss I instantly realized that those are WAY better beginner races than Zerg. I still play all three races and respect good Terrans and Protoss but I can't help but admire insane Zerg players a bit more because I know how on top of everything they gotta be to do what they do.
You're just a salty Terran or Toss fanboy that can't deal with Zerg always being the hardest race to play which is why the best players are mostly Zerg because they need double the APM than other races on a higher level. They have the weakest units, Are ALWAYS top on units lost and resources lost if they don't play like a god and literally stomp their opponent. They have to use way more strategy and scouting (or rather are dependant on it) than Protoss and Terran and Broodlords are easy to counter for their immense cost. You need a Lair to build a Spire then an Infestation Pit to make a Hive which enables the Spire to morph into a Greater Spire and only then you can morph Broodlords out of Corruptors. That's not something you do as quickly as "oh I need some Ghosts" or "Some Carriers would be nice".
Zerg literally has to be aggressive af or react to everything a Terran or Toss does or he will lose the game it's just that simple. And they are the race with the least scouting abilities. All I constantly saw all those years was Terrans and Toss whining about EVERYTHING the Zerg can do which was easily countered so it was nothing but skill issues for the most part. Blizzard always listened to whiners and if you actually think one race can cry more about being underpowered than two races about that one race being overpowered, you're just insane.
The truth about what actually happened is this: Terrans and Protoss cried to daddy Blizzard because the harder to play Zerg spawned naturally more skilled players. In turn, Blizzard made it harder and harder for Zerg and thought it would be fair to give them free units because their units with costs are never worth their cost. What Blizzard forgot and all the Terrans and Protoss never think about is if one of three people has it constantly harder than the other two he is more resourceful and therefore will be unstoppable with the right tools. Your whining spawned players like Serral and Reynor and nothing else so deal with it.
It's weird that new players suck with Zerg because it's too much multitasking while the top of the top players are many Zerg. It's also weird that there are few Protoss in the high leagues but the low leagues are crawling with Protoss that win everything with unfair shit like Cannon Rush and Skytoss. New players can't deal with that. Terrans are found in every league quite a lot and it's mostly a skill issue they have. So many tools and great units... nukes, drop ships with boost that heal, the strongest unit in the game (Marine), scans, mules, BCs, Thors which are all way easier to control than a Zerg army. And Terran + godlike micro always is a devastating combination.
To be effective with a Zerg army you first of all need a lot of one unit kind to even make them count. While 2-4 BCs can be a nice addition to any Terran army, you'll need at least 6 - 8 Broodlords which you have to constantly babysit because they're so slow to be somewhat a threat. And those will just get sniped so yeah... all that teching up for someone that built a Ghost Academy. You also need Corruptors to bodyguard them which isn't easy to control if you have like 3 or 4 other armies to control per default.
I know all the races have unfair stuff and stuff that is really bad but to bash the race with the weakest units, needs the most micro AND macro and needs twice the APM to do stuff while you got way crazier stuff to work with is just plainout stupidity. You need to L2P. Maybe start and think a pro Terran player lost a game against a pro Zerg player because he was playing worse and not because XYZ OP wuaaaah wuaaaah.
Even in the HotS Swarm Host era they were easily countered by free Splash Damage like Siege Tanks for Terran and Colossi for Protoss. They mostly won because the opponent didn't scout the Swarm Hosts in time and wasn't prepared which is btw 90% of the reason why games are lost. I watched a lot of games where Infested Terrans and Locusts wasn't unbeatable but in fact looked totally weak although you knew it wasn't. It was all about positioning, scouting and detection.
"Why am I losing to Immortal/Sentry? I keep a-moving Roaches towards them!" -Zerg players
It's insane for you to say swarm host is countered by free splash damage...which are NOT FREE to begin with. HOtS swarm host has the longest range out of any siege unit in the game so. Zerg back then is basically a cheat code race with 3 units that can spawn free units, it was just insane. Raiding against zerg was absolutely meaningless because inject larva solved the issue.
Shout out jonnyrecco UK PRO
honestly nothing was as awful to watch as photon overskill... my god that was an absolutely terrible choice. mothership core... what a meme... i'll take a soul train/vortex/bl infestor/whatever game any day of the week over watching someone macro while defending with a hero unit that has the most absurd return on investment in basically any rts in the history of rts.
BL-infestor games weren’t fun because the the outcome is already decided before the final fight. It wasn’t even fun to play as Zerg.
i stop atching because T would be hardly anywhere. now Idk what's going on in the game.
the new PTR looks like another patch zerg to me
Terran players now know that Ghosts have snipe, and are a pretty good unit that you should learn how to use.
Yes, as a zerg myself it looks too good
As a Terran player, I'm actually excited about the prospect of the combination of Cyclone changes+Banshee speed research being cheaper/faster potentially bringing battle mech back.
@@BroadwayRonMexico The current Cyclone change is bugged i think . Still the same old Cyclone last patch . +20 dmg vs armor . I saw Gabe vs Reynor in ESL final open cup and battle mech is interesting .-. But i want people to use hyper speed banshee instead of cloak for bio as well as a surprising trick .-. But it still takes forever to research . If only they reduced the research time down to 85s . Right now , if i compare cloack and the speed banshee research , i will still take cloak for safe bet .-. ( cheaper and faster research)
I remember u will get banned when you complain about imbalance in the Teamliquid forums.
alg
ooooh shit, i totally forgot about 4 gate proxy stargate all in with the oracle. memes. absolute trash tier players crushing their way to GM with 1 build.
when blizzard fucks with the balance of the game, you know you're in for trouble. just watched how they ruined Diablo 4. yep. patch 1.1
every unit i have ever considered over powered has been nerfed to the gound and or removed, except the viper. viper is now in my opinion the highest return on investment unit one can produce given that your enemy is making t3 units. it's also incredibly boring to watch as it encourages deathballs.
It was just needed in the most recent patch. Can’t grab and run near as fast.
Nerfed*
Do you see difference between 'v' and 'w'?
Yes I know there's a difference, it's just a bit hard for me since English isn't my native language. But I'm gonna improve with time! : )
Bruh brood lord infestor was great
Making the mother of all balance Jack, can't fret over every patch
Infested terrans were so imba, they were almost as good as a terran unit, except the terran unit was cheaper and had stim. Did terrans know they could 1 shot the infested terran with a cheaper unit that was hardier than an infestor and also only used energy? Then it could go on and 1-shot the source of the infestor? All with an advantage in detection? I will admit that the fungal was a bit overpowered back then, but that was an easy fix. On paper the ghost is so much better than the infestor, but Terrans don't have that zerg skill to make it look so. When I watch dark play v Terran, he usually makes zerg look overpowered, but then you stop and think and realize terran units, eco, production, and scouting are all superior to what zerg has. I'd like to see someone beat 11 insane AI as zerg from any balance era.
Man, Zerg isn't better than Terran, and Terran isn't better than Zerg, why are you so mad man, you're pissing and shitting on Terrans for absolutely no reason
Edit: here's someone beating 7 insane AIs with Zerg race (ruclips.net/video/D8qFZNCDRJ0/видео.html), closest thing I can find, he achieved a world record and the guy is Terran main, so to give you a piece of your own medicine, it seems that Terran is better than Zerg even at being Zerg
@@markrose8440 You see how many people shit over Zerg for absolutely no reason since forever? Just because they're too bad to use the counters? Look at this comment section it's disgusting. People never played Zerg and don't know what they have to do to be half as good as Dark, Serral or Reynor. Scouting and units really are way better with Terrans and Protoss as well. Zerg players basically always have twice the APM of a Protoss or Terran in pro games. I play all three races and there is no question - Zerg is the hardest to play by default because it's so reactive. Pro games are a different league all I'm saying is to play a basic decent Zerg style you gotta do more than a basic decent Terran or Protoss style.
@@raydafuq3570 ok but why are you telling me this?
@@markrose8440 because you got offended because of one guy calling out how Terrans have very strong tools while Zerg get called out all the time by people not even understanding the race. This comment section is a great example of that. Hundreds of comments bashing Zerg but you manage to get pissed off at the one comment about Terran?
@@raydafuq3570
1. "Because you got offended" no I didn't.
2. "Because of one guy calling out how Terrans have very strong tools" all races have strong tools, the fact that you stressed this out just proves that you're butthurt about Terran not being dead within 2 minutes in a ZvT.
3. "Zerg get called out all the time by people not even understanding the race" aw, that's too bad.
4. "This comment section is a great example of that" no.
5. "Hundreds of comments bashing Zerg" no.
6. "But you manage to get pissed off at the one comment about Terran?" Yep👍, good job detective, let's see the amount of new information we achieved, oh well would you look at that, the counter says "🖕0🖕".
So let me get this straight. During the most OP Zerg eras, the best player ever was a Terran and ZvP was essentially 50/50.
Yup. Insane right? But still people cry about Zerg OP while being the weakest race.
Even though the problem still exists and zerg after all these years still win everything, atleast there usually are atleast few protoss and terran in top-10.
The best players win that's how it goes.
@@raydafuq3570
Just like in formula 1 best drivers always win
Your anti-zerg bias is showing.
I'm GM zerg since 2017, it's the only race I play
@@EsportsStoryteller Then you know zerg is a poor weak faction that is always bullied by the other evil races.
This is the final nail of the coffin for SC2.
You should make a video about the current meta where zerg is still imba after all these years.. and yet for whatever reason they were still buffed in the last patch lmao
Zerg is currently not imba at all. Zerg is favored at the highest level for reasons, but that's a different thing. When the GGLord + infestor was a thing, it was only a question of can you kill them before they get there or lose instantly. Even skytoss death balls are easier to counter in comparison, because those are dependent on landing good storms. But fungal was instant and you couldn't run away.
@@Leonhart_93 Yeah that's fair. It was definitely more imbalanced back then. Just wish the most recent patch did something to account for how much zerg is winning on the highest levels.
I wouldn't call it imba exactly, but that's a good topic for sure
@@rat2244 they win because they're the best players. That happens when you always have the hardest race to play by default. This is also why BL and Infestor was so strong a skilled player with easy tools is a menace to gaming.
ZvZ finals ruined watching any sc2 for me, i literally stopped watching any tournaments even till now, i still hate how zerg is in the game and its all because of the sheer amount of tournements ruined by just being all zerg and nobody else.
Cry harder. That's happening when you have the hardest race by default you become naturally a better player.
@@raydafuq3570coping and seething zerg spotted.
@@natronlauge I literally just stated facts while the comment I answer too is maximum QQ. Zerg isn't the one crying all the time about needing buffs while getting nerfed all the time. Naturally Zerg play better because of that it's just logic. If you make it harder for someome by default they'll be better.
Also look at your comment and then look at my comment. Who is the seething coping kid here? Little Toss player needs to stop 2 whine and learn 2 play.
Zergs get abused -> lol
Zergs abuse everyone -> wtf thats not cool man
I'm pro terran, seeing terran units that suppose to be a counter to certain units of both races getting nerfed seems like a discrimination against terran.