when the filmmakers get stuck with an unlikable character
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- Опубликовано: 14 апр 2023
- #ironman #mcu #videoessay
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Iron Man-the movie, and character, that started it all. The Marvel Cinematic Universe is massive. But what if I told you that Iron Man and Tony Stark were so unknown by most mainstream audiences that they had to make animated Iron Man advertorial films ahead of release to show kids he wasn't just a robot? That he was as cool as Spider-Man or The Hulk. What if I told you that Stan Lee created Iron Man knowing full well that the character was an inherently unlikeable person, daring himself to make audiences like him anyway? And how on earth did the MCU, and Robert Downey Jr. for that matter, manage to keep Tony Stark and Iron man interesting over the course of an entire decade? Well... let's talk about it.
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Your favorite Tony Stark line or moment in the MCU?
"Have you ever tried shawarma..."
*I am Iron Man* scene from the first film where Tony Stark reveals his true identity.
"To peace !"
when he died for sure. garbage character
What a fantastic video! In my opinion no MCU movie really holds a candle to the original Iron Man. When he stops the perpetual motion machine in Pepper's office because he's annoyed (Iron Man 2) is easily one of my favorite moments.
That ending to Iron Man 1 was such a trip. It leaves you positively buzzing after it’s over.
Facts bro. I’ll never forget seeing this with my mom and how excited everyone was after viewing it.
Abselutely agree, but I disagree with CinemaStix on why Stark said he was Ironman. To me it was just his narcissism getting in the way since he wanted credit for his achievements, which is completely in line with his character. It would be out of character for him not to take credit.
@@johan8969 i disagree. Otherwise his character wouldve had no progression
@@lilmilontiktok He had plenty of progression, wanting to do good. But he is still the same narcissist which they also play on in all the subsequent movies since its a basic character trait. You can do good and still be an asshole about it which is Stark. Its what makes him different from a guy like Captain America.
That line was such a great lead into I Am Ironman playing in the end credits.
I kinda liked when the MCU was smaller something about it feels more natural.
I agree I think a big reason why that is, is because Marvel heroes were never “heroes” in the traditional sense, but ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances. But the MCU has sort of lost that human quality in their characters now unfortunately
The movies have become hyper ubiquitous and popular, and are no longer a new and shiny novelty. The quality floor has dropped a bit in recent projects, but nothing fundamental has changed about the way they approach characterization or storytelling. You both are just trying to ascribe some greater value to your personal loss of interest because that makes your opinion feel more "objectively correct" than it really is. I've lost quite a bit of interest in the MCU over the past few years, but it's not due to some nebulous, schmaltzy "Marvel has lost their way" nonsense. Pandemic and Chapek's aggressive Disney+ programming drive just fucked their release windows and led to projects not getting enough polish. That and complacency. There's no unifying creative misstep, just individual issues that domino.
@@themikx2939 This is precisely it. I can't connect to superheroes if they're in situations that i will never be able to relate with. This is why The Boys and Invincible work. Not due to their edge moral expressions alone, but due to every character still retaining their humanity in some very relevant and significant ways.
@@dna6 Mate you spent a whole paragraph critisizing their argument without providing with any valuable counter-argument. What is this intellectual jerk-off? Give reasoning and evidences to support your claims and statements when you make one against people's argument, for crying out loud.
Back then it was also just "This is Iron Man, this is the movie about him." Nowadays it would be like "This is Iron Man, remember him from the second end credits scene from this other superhero movie? You also need to watch 2 seasons of this show and S3E8 of that one to understand the character. He's gonna be introduced to another important character in this movie but they won't become friends until the movie that's planned to release in 3 years. Then we'll introduce 5 other characters in a similar fashion and in about 10 years they'll become some kind of superhero team."
Spider-Man Far From Home had the most amazing line about Stark, spoken by Happy. “Nobody can live up to Tony, not even Tony”. It fits in all directions. He couldn’t be the playboy, the arms manufacturer, or the hero, that everyone else thought he was. He was trapped in the middle of himself, while everyone was convinced he was only one thing or another.
No
@@AK-46 yes
Spider-Man far from home is not a Marvel movie, it's a woke Disney movie boring and a nonsense.
@@biancaenera2500 🤨
That was a great line. Tony’s arc was the best part of Endgame.
I think my favourite Tony Stark moment (or maybe segment?) is his time with Yinsen in the cave. I got the feeling Yinsen was the first friend he'd made in a very long time, and the climax of that segment was all the more stronger for it.
But perhaps the most badass moment would be the iconic shot of him firing the tiny rocket at the tank, and walking away from the explosion. 13 year old me certainly enjoyed that back then, and it still makes me grin with joy to this day when I see it.
To this day, I grin when I see Tony testing Mark 2 Armour. I just used to imagine how it feels to fly breaking the sound barrier. UNREAL!!
13yo you? Thanks, I'm old.
@@eefneleman9564 😂😂😂
@@eefneleman9564 Sorry about the reminder, mate.😂
Was a little surprised myself when I looked up how old I was when it released.
When he's getting out of his captors' clutches and he's made his first suit: My turn.
I think this is what the current phase of Marvel is missing out : letting their characters be flawed. Nowadays the characters seem to already be a perfect hero who are op and can do no wrong. If Marvel can look back at what makes their older movies so successful maybe there's still hope for the next phase
This is a good point. They could very much lean into this with characters like Shang Chi who in trying to separate himself from his father may end up having somewhat of a dark side to him (damn as I was typing this I realised the parallels between Tony and Howard)
couldn't agree more. And the stakes never feel like they have much weight either.
Same thing happening with last few films of Mahesh babu,where he plays the role of saviour😂
A lot more is wrong then just that
Can you name a single current Marvel character who is portrayed as having no flaws?
There are quite a few flaws with the most recent batch of Marvel projects, but a lack of character flaws is not one of them. She Hulk is shown to be arrogant and neurotic (an entire episode is dedicated to a bunch of men sitting her down in a therapy circle and pointing out her flaws), Moon Knight shirks personal responsibility and avoids self reflection to a destructive degree, Shuri closes herself off from dealing with emotional hardship and nearly dooms her peoples as she gives in to vengeance, etc.
I think one of the main things that makes Tony likable is that he improves on his faults, and kept doing that as the MCU progressed and his battles got harder. In other words, because Tony learns from his mistakes.
ultron would like to have a word
I understood that reference
This is lost on todays virtue-signaling characters
@@NIGHTGUYRYAN Not that Tony didn’t play a big part, but Ultron was more of a collective mistake than people realize.
TBF he was likable from the start they never made him the total jerk he was in the cartoon and comics.
The fact that I misread the title as "when the filmakers get stuck with an unkillable character" and realized it only halfway it's a testament to how interesting and well done this video is that can make me forget I was "promised" a compleatly different topic.
:) I wish he were unkillable…
I honestly thought from title and thumbnail this was going to be about them being stuck with an unlikable version of Pepper Potts 😅
@@mastamas1124 Same!! 😅
It happened the exact same to me!
no bro you just have a short attention span
4:42 "A protagonist should surprise us. The greater the dichotomy between true character and perceived characterization, the more captivating our hero becomes."
Love this. It seems like some writers think that if they simply catch an audience off guard with a characters decision that it will captivate them, but it usually feels cheap. The better they set up the dichotomy, the more profound and emotional it feels when a character makes a pivotal decision in their arc. I think a good actor who can show that internal conflict helps a lot too with the execution.
Like when Darth Vader turned good.
@@protorhinocerator142 hits even harder after watching the prequels first
@@mrtoast244 I'm late to the party, but have a shout-out to the Machete order:
1. Episode IV: A New Hope
2. Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back ("I am your father!")
3. Episode II: Attack of the Clones
4. Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
5. Episode VI: Return of the Jedi
This re-frames the films as the story of Anakin, sometimes told through the lens of Luke, his son.
* Darth Vader starts out as Darth Vader started out, a faceless, nameless, relentless force of evil.
* We follow the story of Luke until Vader's identity is revealed and Luke, and the galaxy, is at their lowest point yet.
* We get Anakin's story, letting us follow a young, brash padawan through learning love and falling to the Dark Side.
* We Learn, at the end of Revenge, of the existence of Leia as Luke's sister.
* We return to Luke's story and see Anakin redeem himself.
* We stick with a single actor as the "face" of Vader, if we use later versions of Return with Hayden as Force ghost Anakin.
@@c99kfmno episode 1 at all?
@@paulsbunions8441 Biggest loss is the Darth Maul fight, and there are edits of the prequels out there which attempt to save it (e.g. re-frame the Darth Maul fight from Phantom Menace as an assassination attempt on Padme during Attack of the Clones), but just skipping the movie altogether works.
The Phantom Menace is basically a movie about Obi-Wan and his master, not a movie about Anakin, and we're going for a laser focus on the Skywalker family saga.
As a bonus, you avoid the creepiness of Padme getting together with the kid she first met and who first expressed interest in her when Natalie Portman was seventeen and Jake Lloyd was nine.
i like how iron man and captain americas arcs are mirror opposites. stark starts out as a narcissist who selflessly redeems himself through sacrifice in the end. Cap starts out already a selfless virtuous team player but finally allows himself to do something for himself by going back in time and living his best life with Peggy. It's great to see those two arcs and characters interact, driving a lot of the tension and drama when they clash in the mcu movies.
Not just that. These characters were always on the opposite ends. Stark begins as a proponent of no government control and thinks he and avengers can take care of every little threat out there. Whereas Rogers believes in the value of being an obedient soldier. He takes orders to his heart and fulfills whatever is assigned to him. Whenever these two clash their ideologies clash. We can see this in avengers, ultron.
After the events of Ultron, Tony changes his ideology and believes there should be more government control on them. Cap after winter soldier realizes governments and organizations can be corrupt and believes in self and the avengers. Again their ideologies clash in civil war. But there also the conflict is not resolved and is finally resolved in endgame. I think if the conflict had been resolved in infinity war, the story would have ended there. Once the conflict between these two ideologies were fully resolved a huge saga of storytelling has finally come to an end.
can we not miuse the term narcissist
@@rahulmathew4970 Exactly! That's why I love the dynamic between Cap and Tony the most. They embody their ideologies and you can watch in real time as they both grow and come over to each other's sides.
@@picturethis4903 what? i think everyone understands what i meant by narcissist.
@@picturethis4903 He used it right though
This was a very well done summarisation that covered some points I have never heard mentioned before about not just Tony but story craft itself. Thank you, this was most enlightening!
Yes! Impossible task=complete :) it can be a real challenge covering contemporary pop culture on the channel when there are so many other channels out there devoted solely to it. So this really means a lot to hear.
-Danny
The word you are looking for is summation
Sorry to be that guy :P
I think Tony Starks' insistence on preserving the time-line in which his daughter existed was an incredible show of growth for the character. You can feel his love for his daughter and, for probably the first time, believe he cares for someone else more than himself.
Absolutely
“the first time, believe he cares for someone else more than himself.“
Literally let potential decillion lives across the universe indirectly killed by the snap stay dead, just so he could selfishly preserve his own daughter.
*probably the first time, believe he cares for someone else more than himself*
I dont know if thats entirely accurate. A big part of the reason he does this is for Peter Parker. He has played a father figure role for him and feels tremendous guilt for it (even though Peter would likely be gone with or without his help against Thanos). So he may love Peter like a son or just feel guilty. I guess I could see how his love for his daughter makes him see all the more reason he needs to preserve the time-line.
@@Killer36661 read the ops comment again
@@logicss2893 I read it again, and again, and again, and again.
Yep, I'm still right, Tony's motivation is still driven entirely by self.
And the worse part is, Cap, despite being in a group where he helps people who suffer from losing people from the snap, knowing full well how people are hurting from losing their loved ones across the world, decided to let Tony do whatever he wanted without even contesting.
Which is one of the many reason Endgame is dogwater.
I love how you used mostly older, grounded clips of Tony, and only showed the snap, what we were all thinking of, at the end. Beautifully edited.
I’m so glad you enjoyed it! Lots more to come.
-Danny
We USED to have a chance to get to know and care about these characters. Their arc mattered to us. Now every 3 months there’s 5 new characters that are connected to such-and-such and we’re all looking for hints while feeling lost if we didn’t give hours to watching this other show. I’ve given up. I’ll read an article every now and again and I hope they do well, but hyping up some stuff 3 years from now involving a cameo character from 3 years ago..I just can’t. Too much is too much.
That's why I stopped buying comics back in the 90s. Too many crossovers, too much necessity to follow all the storylines in too many titles. Now the films are the same.
That sounds like poor mental skills. If the movies are good, there should be no problem getting to know more characters.
You don't even need to know their out of MCU version.
However they do need to make the movies interesting
@@JoybuzzerX You're missing the point. The movies aren't interesting BECAUSE of all the new characters. It was fun and novel, but the marvel formula of introducing new material and weaving it in has grown old and overused twice over. They do the same thing over and over with new characters, ones we don't care about because we've already been through this charade several times.
Marvel feels more like homework than entertainment these days. Even direct sequels like Ironman2 can be watched without having to know anything ahead of time--but now the films expect you to have seen like 2 of their tv series and 6 separate films to understand what's going on.
And even then it's underwhelming because it's usually characters they just threw in who have no real personality or development!
@@JoybuzzerX That's the key point, IF the movies are good. Marvel(Disney) nowadays is just trying to use their name to add more characters without properly building them
One of my favorite lines is "SHIT!"
But also, when he's speaking to Peter Parker: "And I wanted you to be better." Hits me every time.
language!
He said a bad language word!
Tony was just an asshole in that scene, though. Stark was intensely dismissive of everything Peter told him about, and then was OH SO SURPRISED when Peter assumed Stark wasn't going to do anything about it and acted like it was Peter's fault, even though Stark was the one not communicating anything. Not to mention how much of a massive, unrespectable hypocrite Stark is, yet everyone acts like he his character arc made him into a paragon of virtue, despite the fact that he wanted to force his "friends" to become slaves to the UN, and when they didn't agree to it, he decided to beat the shit out of them until they did whatever he told them to.
@@clairetellkamp6253 Yeah, he’s a flawed character. Almost like a real person! That’s what we call good writing, something certain other Marvel characters are completely lacking.
@@brokenfingers9607 He's a flawed character, yes, but everyone acts like he was right in those situations, and he was ultimately rewarded for it. He never had to face the fact that he was wrong in Civil War, and even to his death, seemed to believe that he was in the right, and was given a hero's death. There is something in writing called "making promises" and when you show a character on a character arc make a terrible, selfish, inhumane decision that violates the basic human rights of everyone he calls a friend, you are promising to the reader that either he is going to become a bad guy and not be redeemed, or he's going to somehow need to face the consequences of his fucked up actions. None of that happened, and even the fans seemed to completely ignore the fact that he was absolutely and utterly fucking disgusting in that movie, and then everyone but Cap forgot about it.
We like Tony Stark by Robert Downey because it was a character from a different time, with a different storytelling strategy. A time when heroes suffered consequences of their own actions, and we can relate to that. What really made him special is that he learnt from his mistakes between other things:
He chose to sold weapons because it was part of his father bussiness -> traumatic kidnapping experience + core reactor in his chest to live. Ironman 1
Tried to leave his past behind -> antagonist and villains tried to kill him because of the actions he already did. Ironman 1, 2, and 3.
Tried to shield and protect the world -> Civil war and Ultron happened.
Tried to leave everything behind, starting a family -> Infinity War, Endgame happened
Despite of his wealth and intelligence, he still had problems in which he struggled and there were a lot of people that was hurt because of him, and it is this journey that made him compelling, we are shown that he is not a bad person (although we are shown the consequences of his decisions aswell), but he is someone that made mistakes/bad decisions and most often than not tried to make amends even if it all blowed in his face, and we can relate to that. This was Marvel at its peak
Just my 2 cents: I think the reason Tony was so likeable was because us, as humans, are also inherently full of contradictions. Seeing Tony's journey in overcoming these contradictions give us a glimpse into our own uncertain future, and how one day we will also be able to reconcile those differences between ourselves.
Yes. The flawed character is more interesting because we're more likely to relate given that we possess flaws ourselves, at least in my opinion
Perfect heroes without flaws aren't heroes, they are caricatures.
I think this is one reason Captain Marvel didn't capture the audience's interest as she didn't seem to have any major personality flaws and seemed to be way overpowered at the end of the movie.
captain marvel has always been a difficult character to nail down - i think thats why they gave rogue her powers and put her in a coma.
but ive always seen captain marvel as layup to rogue anyways. i never expected her to remain long in the story in her current form.
I strongly disagree, aragorn, jon snow, steve rogers, ned stark, atticus finch, are all flawless but not caricatures...
@@afrosamourai400 true, maybe the Captain Marvel character problem was that she was 100% arrogance and 0% humility. And she is too powerful to ever be humbled.
She is basically Marvel’s version of Superman, it’s hard making an interesting story when the character is a couple steps below One Punch Man. Christopher Nolan did a great job on Man of Steel. The Captain Marvel movie was just a depiction of what a feminist would do if they were god.
@Afrosamourai aragorn I'll give you. Jon was flawed though. He had major insecurities that he wrestled with, even if he always made the right call in tough moments. In that way he's a foil to Theon
@@elmergloo3259 What Cristopher Nolan did for Man of Steel? I think he didn't even watched the movie
I once saw someone describe civil war like this: "It's about two supernaturally enhanced war machines (cpt america and bucky) beating up and fighting an orphan because one of them killed said orphan's parents" and this is literally so accurate and funny, I think about it all the time.
Literally so out of context but thought I'd share it
His consistent restlessness across multiple films was my favorite angle for his character. Whether showcased by his insomnia in Iron Man 3 and obsessive suit-building or refusing to help in Endgame only to solve time-travel on a whim because he could, I saw it as another character defect that could cause as many problems as it solved. What's funny is the comics never portrayed him nearly as effectively as the films did; as a result, his comics have gotten progressively better since the birth of the MCU.
I think his relentlessness was cranked up to 11 with Ultron. He foolishly created an evil AI but then was driven to make a better AI to confront it.
It didn't matter that he would alienate all the heroes by doing this. He wanted it bad so he did it. Nobody could stop him.
Oh, yet another one of those smug MCU fanboys thinking their precious movies are superior to the source material (which they clearly never read). First, ''Aaron'', Iron Man 3 is a pile of vomit. You failed with your argument the second you mentioned that piece of filth in a positive context.
''His consistent restlessness''
>Cites two movies.
''What's funny is the comics never portrayed him nearly as effectively as the films did''
By ''effectively'' you mean the comics never portrayed him as a total narcissistic dipshіt obsessed with making jokes at the expanse of everyone, pretending he's better than other people? Or insulting little children after breaking into their houses? Or gaslighing teenagers into going to fight his battles or otherwise he'll TELL their relatives their deepest secrets? You're right, comic-book Iron Man is, or at least used to be before Marvel's editorial ruined him by MCUfying him, was an actual compelling character that, while troubled (mostly due to his alcoholic addiction that was linked to his parental issues), was still a genuinely likable guy who respected people if they deserved it and was all around a professional in his field and disliked erratic behavior from people. Oh, and he loved children (the reason why he revealed his identity in the comics was because he tried to save some kid's dog) and would never dare to insult no child. Especially someone who just opened up about their own father leaving them. He also would never look at a female assistant and treat her like a piece of 4ss (unless we're talking about The Iron Age comic, which had him slap Pepper on the butt, but that happened before he had his change of heart after his trip to Vietnam), he'd fire anyone who would dare such behavior. He treats his employees like a family. Which is also one of the reasons CB Stark is much more mature and compelling character; he would never give up his company to no one, since he was the one that made it what it is after his father passed and he holds a responsibility before all the people that work for it. He also has actual compelling and threatening villains to fight, unlike the MCU one, who has fought the same boring ''bad bad bussinesman man who is greedy'' for all three movies. And also, comic-book Stark did not need a world-ending scenario and a sacrifice in order to be extremely dramatic and compelling. Him becoming a homeless man during O'Neil's run, who wanders around the streets of Long Island and contemplates suicide, was enough. Bigger stakes don't mean bigger drama.
''as a result, his comics have gotten progressively better since the birth of the MCU.''
There isn't a single Iron Man comic post-Fraction era, which is where that MCUfied BS started to crawl in, that is one third as good as even the most mid Iron Man comics from the 60s, 70s, 80s onward. I can barely read any of them. They're emotionless, convoluted, and painfully unfunny. So, in short, like an MCU movie.
@@MachineFuckingHateGet off your alt account, Zack Snyder.
@@MachineFuckingHate no one asked bruh
@@MachineFuckingHate I don't think Tony Stark being a better person in the comics necessarily makes him a better character. If you find the comic version of him more compelling, there's nothing wrong with that, but a lot of people probably like that he's kind of a piece of shit. The worse off you start, the more opportunity you have to be a great person by the end. That, and if you for whatever reason don't think he's changed at all the whole time, you can acknowledge that someone fucking SUCKS and still really like them as a character.
I do agree that just endlessly raising the stakes isn't always the best way to write a story and I don't honestly see many people defending the state of the MCU in general nowadays, but I do think Endgame was still a pretty good ending for his character arc. If his problem was that he was a selfish bitch who put himself before everyone else, then him making a big sacrifice is a reasonable way to show he's changed. Plus his treatment of Morgan is a lot better than how he treated Harley and arguably Peter, although with Peter he was already making SOME effort, what with trying to encourage him in ways that his own dad never did to him.
Also Tony in the Iron Man trilogy doesn't exclusively fight a different "bad bad businessman who is greedy" each time. While MCU Justin Hammer is imo the best character ever to have appeared in anything because he's a pathetic loser and I fucking love him, he's not the main threat in Iron Man 2. Vanko is and he wants revenge for something Howard did.
The ending of the first Avengers movie when Tony sends the missile through the wormhole.
Losing control of his suit and his final gaze at the mothership right before destruction was insane!
The scale of a comic book movie and arc of a character I'd never seen on such a level. Superb!
I think what really made the character work is that, not only was his 'character' unlikable, but the actor had his known flaws as well; Downey was relatable. Not like every other hollywood star that everyone thought was perfect. Real synergy between Iron Man & Downey, that is hard to come by.
My husband and daughter and I have spent countless hours discussing Tony Stark. This was a fantastic video essay. I’m following you from here to the end of the line.
Thank you! And welcome!! Sounds like you’ve got a pretty rad fam :)
-Danny
Very good analysis of building a great character. This is what made Marvel Comics in the 60s and 70s so popular. Most of their heroes had some kind of personality flaw that ultimately made them VERY relatable to the reader. They pulled that off again magnificently with Tony Stark/Ironman in the MCU. Unfortunately, they seem to have pretty much abandoned that of late.
Exactly, I really wish Disney would let marvel be like its original comics characters
I think it's why Magneto is the best villain. Everyone - the heroes and the audience/readers alike - can relate to his perspective and his opinions and even agree. It's just in his methods that we differentiate him from Xavier.
It's almost as if being true to the original material, instead of forcing the story to fit the expected movie template, manages to preserve the very nature of a character which made them so interesting to start with.
tony stark portrayed by Robert Downey Jr will always be an ICON
I love Tony's character development.
His larger than life, prideful and somewhat narcissistic exterior is a defense, an illusion, or let's say his "Iron suit", which serves to protect a much more vulnerable, sensitive and wounded boy, who never felt loved by his father. I think we love Tony, because we get a sense of who Tony is at the core: a hero who is willing to sacrifice for others, someone who is capable of empathy and love despite his hard cold exterior. He is at his core actually much more similar to Steve Rogers.
That "Iron Suit" of his never went away, like how awkwardly he shows fatherly love to Spiderman. It feels real to me, because people can change for the better as a person, but there are yet many aspects of them which never change.
I find the idea that being a businessman is a "bad" characterization ridiculous
My favorite line from him wasn't in character, but from the man himself. He credited his success, in part, to something a great actor before him taught him when he was young: "Know when to improvise, and know when to do what you are told." The fact that his reveal of *being* Iron Man was improvised, only shows how true to heart Robert took these words of wisdom. It would have been a far less interesting series (not just Iron Man, but the MCU as a whole) if not for him knowing when to say, 'Screw the script, this would be so much cooler." Be it in that line, or Civil War even happening in the first place. He truly made the MCU what it was, and it's no surprise the MCU died shortly after his departure.
Iron Man was always a cool character. He was just in bad need of a redesign. The best thing about the newer version is that the technology caught up with the concept.
6:25 - Just a correction to the video, Robert Downey Jr did not actually improvise the line "I am Iron Man" at the end of the film. It was pre-written and in the original screenplay. Just google "Iron Man 2008 original screenplay” and scroll to the bottom of the PDF file, you'll see the line right there. A few years ago some doofus reporter over at IndieWire put out an article that said RDJ improvised the line and it's become some weird incorrect fact that people like to bring up ever since.
Yeah, I definitely think I fell for that very article. It’s good. I’ve been meaning to make a video at some point addressing all the little factual errors I inevitably make across my videos. I definitely hate the idea of people walking away with bad information. Totally antithetical to the channel.
Thanks for the comment.
-Danny
Keep in mind that the screenplay for IM1 underwent many revisions. When Downey joined the production, he involved himself in all aspects of it, including script. When we hear that a line was improvised, most of us assume that it means that the actor did it in the moment that the scene was being shot, thinking it up as he's filming it
Downey has described improv, for him, as a much more involved and collaborative process. He will come up with ideas and work them out with the writers and director before filming. He and Jon worked extensively with the writers on IM1 (Jeff Bridges has said that he worked with Jon & Robert on the script for two weeks just before filming), but you'll never see their names in the writing credits (Howard Stern asked Bridges if he should have received writing credit. Bridges answer was no, it's just part of his job.)
My point is that Downey very well may have made the suggestion to Feige and the writers that Stark wouldn't hide his identity.
To prove the point, I recently watched an interview with Eric Oram, fight coordinator for Downey's Sherlock Holmes films, and was surprised to find out that the "Discombobulate" monolog from the first film was entirely written by Downey. Yet he takes no writing credit.
Tony has for me always been my favorite hero from the MCU. Not only did his usual self and his true self contradict and create interesting situations and dilemmas, but you could tell he was flawed. He was easier to relate to as a human being. Not just that, but you could as a viewer tell that he was trying to get rid of his own flaws. He wasn’t fast enough to save Brody when he fell, so in Infinity War we see he’s built a bigger booster onto the suit. Large impacts would send him flying, so he gave the suit a tower shield. Hell, we even see the suit become progressively easier to put on and take off, and Iron Man 2 gave us the suit in a suitcase, and The Winter Soldier gave us a single glove with a beam that sat in his wristwatch. Progressively stronger beams. More powerful energy cores that won’t threaten his life if they run out. In the end, he realized the best option to be prepared for any situation and never be a victim of his own flaws again, would be to make a nanosuit that could create anything, and even then, he falls victim to his own flaws, when he gets stabbed with a blade made from his own suit.
He is a flawed person, but that’s what made him far more human than most humans the MCU are currently juggling around in their ball pit of narratives.
I'm so impressed that you were able to find an aspect of this character that so few people have discussed - even after this film being 15 years old! As always, an excellent essay that's made me think more about internal character conflicts in my own novels.
This was brilliant, and it really opened my eyes to what makes a compelling character. Your points made me think about Jack Sparrow, and how he was enthralling when they juxtaposed his bumbling pirate facade with his cleverness, yet uninteresting when he was just a bumbling pirate. As you said, there were diminishing returns as Sparrow continued being a bumbling pirate rather than growing his "true character" and becoming dynamic.
Also, the title of the video and the thumbnail (with Terence Howard as Rhodey) made me think this video was going to be about what filmmakers do with a character in the sequel when audiences didn't like them in the original. I thought it'd be about replacing actors (as in Howard -> Cheadle), phasing the character out (eg, Jar Jar Binks' reduced screen time), or hopefully rewriting them to show sides we hadn't seen before (like how Captain America 2011-2012 was a stiff cartoon of invulnerability and old man jokes, while Cap of 2014-2019 was a nuanced character who suffered the same loneliness and internal dilemmas as the rest of us). Your video covered a much more important and interesting topic than the one I thought it would be about, but I still find the other one intriguing, as well. Thanks for a great lesson! Keep up the good work.
Same pinch 🤏 . Jacksapprow came in my mind while watching the video.
THIS. This is exactly what I've been saying about Tony for nearly a decade, and why he's always been my favorite character in the MCU.
I think respecting someone can often be much more powerful than liking someone. In the movie, tony stark scrapes together every bit of ingenuity he has to free himself and Yinsen. Even if you don't like him as a person, his ability to suffer through and eventually escape by his own means is admirable. He is also very relatable because of his flaws. Almost everyone has been arrogant at one point in their life for one reason or another.
Every time you upload a video, Danny, I catch myself smiling and quitely saying to myself, "Oh, what a treat, something interesting to watch!". And I open the video in a background tab, and I make a mental note to come back and watch it when I can devote those 10 or so minutes to just truly enjoy your content. And sometimes it's within an hour, sometimes it's a day later, but everytime I finally get to it, it's like a little reward I give myself and I am always so pleased with what I've seen in the end. Those video essays are absolutely fantastic, and that's perhaps one of the few very good reccommendations RUclips has ever given me. I think it was around a year or so ago when I started following you more closely, anticipating those uploads, and you've very quickly risen to become one of my favourite channels on the platform! I guess what I am trying to say, is Thank You! for making great and original and thought-provoking and well-put content, it's always a pleasure seeing what you do next, and I am oh so excited about that lovely archive of analyses of the history of film through a lens so easily understood by all! Fantastic work, as always, Danny! Keep it up! And, again as always, looking forward for the next one! Cheers!
I can’t tell you what an honor it is to get a note like this. I’m so thrilled to even have the opportunity to share this stuff with other people. And knowing that it’s entertaining even a handful of people is more than enough encouragement to feel proud to continue forward. If you found my stuff about a year ago, that’s pretty awesome. Because the channel’s only a little over a year old at this point. So that’s pretty early. Anyway, thank you, sincerely, for that encouragement. And for the words. And for watching :) It means the world. And I hope it’s still a long road left ahead.
-Danny
Indeed. And when coming back to a video later you can see things like how the title of this video was previously "no wonder iron man was the best marvel movie character".
This sound almost the same as my experience and how I enjoy this channel. I remember last year having watched a few videos analyzing the intro of Dark Knight and the introduction of the Joker, and a couple of days later Danny's first video about Heath Ledger popped up in my feed. I am so happy i clicked on that video and discovered one of my favourite channels to date!
Love your videos. I was 8 when Iron Man came out and my brother and I watched it over and over again, it’ll always have a special little place for me
Thanks! And totally. I was a tad older myself, but it’s still always felt very singular to me for that reason.
You're absolutely right. I always create characters with an internal conflict, something they have to resolve, but it's what they do, their actions, that determine their character. I guess the choices we ALL make determine who we really are.
I don't know..dostoevsky once said "i judge a man not on what he is but what he aspire to be" i think it makes sense to know what people want to be, before judging their actions.
@@afrosamourai400 The cyclops Rell from the movie Krull once said, "Your actions give you weight, my friend."
The greatest tragedy about MCU Iron Man is that he was done so well they just tried to make every character like him.
What "The Dark Night" did for DC Movies...
And I would argue that they (MCU) didn’t try to make other characters like him in the first place…..and now, even more incapable of doing so.
Back then we had Cap, Thor, Bucky, Panther, Peter, Wanda etc who all had a very different character journey, which made the MCU so interesting. Dr Strange almost started off as an Iron Man copycat, but quickly evolved to something else.
Now MCU CANNOT even come up with an interesting character journey anymore. I have seen hours of Cap Marvel, Moon Knight, She-hulk. I just cannot tell you what their purposes are. They are now merely a vehicle for audiences to go through all these same predictable stories….that frankly isn’t even worth telling to begin with.
So I don’t think they did try and now they have lost the ability to even try lol
It's a product of the Joss Whedon MCU movies, where he turns characters into sarcastic quipsters. Stark - and to an extent Barton - fit that role like a glove, but nobody else does. It's why everyone else feels so samey. At the end of the day, characters can't be unique anymore. They all have to engage in a Whedonism every five seconds, because it's a trademark.
Tony is the best character in the marvel and it's not even close. Everyone else barely changes as the movies progress. It's such a shame they couldn't do what they did with Tony on other characters.
We love Tony stark cause the man has so many flaws, he acknowledges them and even though he doesn't say "I'm working on them" you can see that he is actively trying to be better. It doesn't happen overnight and he struggles. Now the mcu gives us close to nearly perfect main characters. And like mayuri said it I DESPISE PERFECTION
What an amazing diesction of possibly the most complex character in the MCU! You, kind sir, have earned my undivided attention
Thank ya! And welcome! Lots more here, and lots more to come.
:)
-Danny
That moment, that look that comes across his face, when he KNOWS he's solved time travel... not a word spoken but I believed it... I felt it.
Excellent video essay! Especially love the correlation you made between the characters of Tony Stark and John Rambo and where the difference between character and characterization failed in the latter as the franchise progressed. Seriously great work.
Thank you so much! I’m sure there are plenty of other examples I could’ve used there, but any excuse to talk about the first Rambo :)
-Danny
I had recently re-read Story, and the chapter about characterization was one of my favorites, I'm glad someone brought some light to it, many video essays in this site seem to have a lack of literary basis, you're one of the best, keep it up
I saw Iron Man in 2008 when I was 6 years old, it became my favorite superhero movie and I would say it still is, it even inspired me to study engineering in high school because I wanted to be a cool tech genius like Tony was, I feel that what made it truly great was how good Tony´s character was, he suffered due to his flaws and didn´t waste Yinsen´s sacrifice, he really wanted to be better and when it truly mattered he was a real hero who didn´t doubt to sacrify himself for others
I constantly tell people that the reason Tony stark is the best MCU character is because he’s the best imperfect hero. His mistakes happen because he’s scared and his anxiety takes a hold of him- he flaunts he faults to cover for the fact that he cares- because he knows that people will walk all over him and use him if he lets them know what he’s really trying to do- like what they did to Captain America. Why people liked the 1st avengers movie and ultron was because there was a promise that things would get better because that what those movies did, give hope. the characters would eventually learn to work together perfectly as a team- when we didn’t get those little fluffy moments you see in the fan fictions- we felt like we were robbed of happy endings. What marvel is doing right IS the unhappy endings- the imperfect solutions, its insanely accurate to real life. What Disney is doing wrong is overloading us with too much information that theres no room to appreciate the small things we have. I miss waiting years for the next movie- now that we’ve been fed every few months with a silver spoon- we miss mom’s cooking.
Another lovely video to the collection. It's magical how each and every one of the topics you choose becomes interesting the moment you talk about them.
Thank you!
Thank YOU! Hehe, well I try my hardest to find interesting topics. I doubt if I could make ANYthing interesting just by talking about it. Though that would be mighty convenient… :)
-Danny
I remember being absolutely excited when this movie came out. I was one of the few people in my friend circle who had watched the animated show.
My one (minor) complaint with Tony's character arc was: they never focused on Tony's comic book struggle with alcoholism. I think adding that element to Iron Man 2 or 3 would've made either movie more memorable. I also bring this up because i remember reading an article about Iron 2 before it came it out that referenced the fact that the movie would delve in to Tony's alcohol abuse.
They had a short alcohol abuse scene in iron man 2 or 3, right? The party scene where he destroyed his house in the fight agains war machine
TBF, they kind of couldn't due to RDJ's own history of alcohol abuse.
thank god they never did that, this would be trash to see in the movies tbh
I like how you pointed out the similarities between Obidiah and Tony. They diverge in their care of others. Obidiah may care on a surface level about other people, but Tony actually cares deeply for others, but doesn't show it because of past heartache. On a side note, Tony, for all his intelligence, doesn't foresee the consequences of his decisions until it's too late. This is probably why he sees so much of himself in the MCU Peter Parker and tries to mentor him.
Characters can be unlikeable, but they cannot be unknowable. once we understand them, they can be jerks and killers.
Also helps if they are an expert at something, like House.
Great comparison with House & Tony
CinemaStix filling the gap every frame a painting left behind on a weekly basis and i love it
Hehe, impossible. But doing my best :)
Arrogance is the overestimation of your own abilities and intelligence... Tony Stark has never really been arrogant. Too many people see a combination of high intellect and confidence, and call it arrogance, when that's not what arrogance even means
One of my favorite things about iron man is that hes not perfect. He loses but he learns. You can see it in each of the suits he makes that whatever problem the previous suit had would be fixed in the next mark. Finally culminating in the iron spider suit with features like a heating system (when he crashed in the snow in iron man 3) auto parachute (when he almost lost Rhodes) deep space capabilities (going through the worm hole)
I still don't know why people say Iron Man was B tier. Back in the 90s he was already popular because of the cartoons. At least in my circle...
I think you just answered your own question. YOUR circle. To the general moviegoing public, iron man was a nobody.
@@denimchicken104 I'm being modest. First Iron Man out grossed Batman Begins, Superman returns, The Matrix, Django Unchained, Toy Story, Sprited Away, Back to the Future, Shrek etc.
@@thew00ted Are you talking about the movie, or the character as known from the comics? Because internationally I don't think the character from the comics was that well known, while the movie was indeed a massive success.
I doubt Iron Man comics/cartoons were above B tier when compared to Spider Man, Batman, Superman, X-Men, Justice League, or even Fantastic 4. As someone who isn't that big on comics, I still knew about those while growing up thanks to cartoons, movies and video games, while Iron Man only showed up on my radar through the movie in 2008. But I'm from Norway, so maybe the case is a little different in the US.
@@0That_Guy0 ruclips.net/video/sUbCoON6Kw0/видео.html
Even Rogan admitted that iron man was big even in his time
@@thew00ted Surprising twist there, for sure! But I think the guest stated something that is a valid point; Rogan's age group.
While it may have been popular back then, I get the feeling Iron Man fell a bit behind later on, to then reemerge in popularity thanks to the Iron Man movie. I don't have numbers to go on, just my observation.
I really enjoyed the way you both wrote and edited this video! it flows really well and makes the point you're telling easier to understand.
Thank you! I spend a lot of time trying to get the rhythm and flow of my stuff just the way I want it. So this really means the world to me to hear. :)
-Danny
@@CinemaStix yea of course! I did enjoy the audible fading in of scenes that appropriately related, like the “file on tony stark” thing, a nice touch
Good video essay! I was always fascinated by Tony Stark too as an explanation of how to make a flawed character likeable. As mentioned, narcissism, impulsivity, carelessness, arrogance, rudeness, and even alcoholism are all unlikeable traits. But how do we make a character like that likeable? You give them an incredibly strong trait of having the heart of a hero, the will to do good, and follow through in their action. And on top of that, it helps to make them funny, confident, and charismatic. It's a good balance of positives and negatives in Tony.
Iron Man was what made the MCU great in the first place. Dude was the best written character in the MCU, as he started it all. It even fixed Downey’s career (glad he won that Oscar for Oppenheimer, he truly deserved it) and the MCU’s portrayal of the character was much better than his comic book counterpart.
I think you make a lot of good points but I also think your missing something. Tony stark was never truly unlikable. Being likable doesn’t necessarily equate to being a good person. A bad person can have some likable traits that don’t make them any better of a person. For Tony, it’s is humor and charisma. We are introduced to that just as early as we are introduced to his selfishness and AH nature. Those traits go a long way in making him likable from the beginning.
I think it’s a combo of likable traits plus the characterization that you talk about that make Tony such a complex and compelling character
I've watched the First Iron Man Movie around 750 times. It still is my most favourite movie to this day.♥️💐
A beautifully written text for Tony Stark. Everytime I savor this character, I feel something slightly different or see some new insights. What an incredible character and story by Marvel!
I was still in school when I watched it in the cinema and when black sabbath dropped in the end credits I swear it was one of the best feelings ever
Looking back at ironman you realise how good those stories were compared to the current garbage being served up
Fr, I think the new stuff is just ok but then I watch iron man, gotg, Spider-Man, and I realize the new movies are garbage
@@Dreamweaver_Skunkbag I don't even like spiderman but I watch those movies now as if they are shakespeare
oh please, wandavision, loki, and multiverse of madness are incredibly fun. the iron man movies were kinda stale before the avengers showed up.
@@NIGHTGUYRYAN incorrect opinion
Man, I miss the old MCU so much😢
I always look forward to a CinemaStix video
:)
everything you said is exactly why tony is my favorite character of all time. he's very human, flawed and aware of his flaws and does everything he can to be better while not losing his unique personality. he cares so much about people and by endgame you can see how much he doesn't try to hide his feelings anymore, which is beautiful to me. he shows growth in a way that i've never seen, he's a really important character to me
If this channel taught me anything about RUclips video editing it's that "good content doesn't need flashy editing"
That’s my motto! Plus it’s less work :)
@@CinemaStix you got a point 😅
Never thought of it that way (his story ended when his characterization and true character finally aligned). Pretty cool!
That was absolutely amazing! I learned so much from this video to a level that was unexpected. Thank you for this gift!
Thank YOU for giving it a shot!
-Danny
As someone who’s trying to write flawed characters, this was fascinating! Thank you so much!
Ironman was showing us a super hero walking ahead of his super villain, getting through the roadbumps first and figuring out solutions before the enemy can catch on and his adventure is not the super villain, is overcoming his own flaws. Regular heroes are the opposite, it's the villain the one always one step ahead and the hero adventure is about catching up. This is why Ironman was so special.
I love Thor but that’s the issue- whenever he has a problem or challenge personally he overcomes it either in exactly one scene or at most a montage lol
I never thought about the point that anti-war era is when they made stark’s backstory
A simple thing that makes him more likable than our typical arms dealer/industrialist is that he does the opposite of what we see in real life: refusing to go to the front line of the wars they advocate. He shows the courage of his convictions rather than the cravenness of a hefty profit made from the C-suite.
i've watched the ending to endgame so many times that I was emotionally numb to tony's sacrifice. But the way you have explained his character arc so beautifully and ended this mini video essay on such a poetic note brought me to tears.
His story doesn't end. It becomes a legend.
I was never hugely into comics, I did collect them for a short time, but I guess I’m weird cause I knew Ironman and War Machine from when I was 7-8 years old. I used to play Marvel vs Capcom as Spider-Man and War Machine and even got to the final boss on 50 cents (equal to one play). I loved doing the special move where the entire screen turned into guns and missiles and totally destroyed the opponent I was fighting.
Danny, nicely done! Most insightful observation on story telling/ character arc development I've come across. Not just MCU, any of the genre franchises .
Thank you! I really enjoyed putting this one together. So I’m really glad you enjoyed it :)
One thing I found endlessly fascinating was how much Tony himself bought into his own "characterization," at times to the point of completely discounting himself. The irony here is that his characterization is of someone who is arrogant, but his awareness of and constant recognition of this characterization worked to undermine it. Making him, in a weird way, one of the most humble characters in the MCU in that he was willing to openly recognize his flaws and apologize for them when needed (while also working to improve them). Something few other characters do. And very fascinating to watch indeed.
Counter-Argument: It's much easier to delay and prevent a character's natural assimilation of characterization and true character when that character becomes a side-piece to a larger, separate narrative called, "the Avengers." While I agree that Tony Stark's attachment to his own hubris and pride allowed him to remain a very dynamic character, I don't think it can be summed up as a masterclass in cinematic writing. I think part of the reason Stark resists the transition into his pure-blooded superhero self is the fact that the writers probably needed to lean on the gimmick of Stark's bratty attitude in order to give fan's the hyper-stylized, fanfare-driven punchy dialogue that everyone expects from an Avengers film. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying I don't think i was that hard to pull off.
true + i feel it was never about character vs characterization anyways. tony just sucked big time before his kidnapping, and he started revaluating his beliefs only after yinsen died and seeing gulmira and stuff. it was less of a reveal and more of a change in how he was characterized later on. but then again, that's def giving them too much credit lol, i agree with u more
Your editing is so clean. Great video!
Thank you! Just glad you liked it :)
-Danny
This was REALLY well done. Your points were clear, easy to follow and well supported... very impressive.
:D
I love you 3000.
It really, really sells the father/daughter bond and it sets up very real stakes for Tony. He can protect his family, or save the universe.
The thumbnail for this is very misleading. Because Rhodes was recast, and he’s in the shot, I really thought this would be about him and the pivot for actor. I much preferred your version on Iron Man’s character, but wouldn’t have watched without your community post. Just some feedback, love the content ❤
I'm not going to go into a long tirade on why phase 4 is bad, but I will say that it suffers from Marvel not having to sell you their characters anymore. They had to sell us Tony and Steve for Iron Man and Cap to be enjoyable. But nowadays everyone knows Marvel, there's no reason to try anymore. So they don't. There is no incentive to spend the time and money to set up a human being before throwing them into the blender, because there's always more blenders on the way and far too much meat getting packed for production to focus overmuch on quality.
Everyone continuing on the topic of the video whereas I’m focused on the video itself. Excellently executed. Wonderful editing, and amazing writing to get the point across with inclusions of examples in not only other media but in the same exact movies as the character itself.
Lately I get zoned out and disinterested by media analyses like this one which don't do much more than state the obvious or simply don't have an in-depth look into a certain character or premise, but this video in particular was hella insightful and a joy to watch!
“The truth is…….I am Iron-Man-“ - Robert Downey Jr./ Anthony Edward Stark
Great video as always Danny! Such an amazing breakdown of a super interesting character.
Thank you! Great character for sure. So much more still to be said.
Tony has the strongest arc in the Infinity Saga. He maintains his hubris, but after the mess of Ultron, he's more than willing to push for oversight - of himself! That would have been unthinkable for 2008 Tony. It's fun watching him still maintain his swagger and narcissism, but his hero side becomes increasingly selfless up to the point when Strange breaks his own rules and holds up the "one scenario" finger during the final battle, and Tony realizes he'll have to sacrifice himself for everyone else. It's just so well done, and these strong characters are exactly what's missing from post-Endgame Marvel.
I miss when all the comic book fans were people I could share a room with in a panel.
when he asked happy for a cheeseburger and then happy gets all the cheeseburgers for tonys daughter .. im not crying u are
We were late to the MCU fan club. My, then, 15 year old son wanted to spend "The Shutdown" catching up with all of the MCU movies. So, my husband & I watched them for the first time, all within a 12-18 month window.
I was very impressed with Tony Stark character arch. His character complexity. He was very well crafted & played.
He could have had a great love story, but it was watered down. Ya know, the man who can have any woman, but the one he actually wants. She's embarrassed by the thought of being with him due to him having every woman imaginable.
every single video you make makes me want to watch the movie (even the negative videos). I never had much interest in the MCU but now I have a strong desire to marathon the whole thing.
I really like the line on Homecoming "If you're nothing without the suit, then you shouldn't have it." It feels very hypocritical without the context of Iron Man 3, but we do see how Tony doesn't just tell it to Peter to be an asshole to him. In Iron Man 3, he loses the ability to use his suit and has to improvise with his engineering skills, making genius but really simple gadjets; he knows that he could be Iron Man without his suit, and he is certain that Peter is better than him without his suit. Tony's and Peter's interactions and stories go so well together, but I think that part of Homecoming and Iron Man 3 is one of the best.
And my favourite line from Iron Man 3 is from the kid. "You're a mechanic, right? Just build something." It's so obvious, but because of that Tony never thought of it; he was too busy thinking about rebuilding his suit that he forgot his whole background in mechanics. He sees the same builder in Peter, a kid who takes computer parts from the trash and makes great things with them, and creates his own compound that create webs. I bet that if someone had no knowledge of these two, and only heard about their basic characters, they would most likely think they are father and son.
Iron Man will always remain special to me.
God damn the first iron man movie looks good. There is a lot of CG but its all realistic, with wear and tear and not that clean vibrant stuff of today.
I want to say, keep up the great videos. Love it. Old TV production quality. Love it.
I always loved Iron Man as a kid, and had a bunch of the different (albeit cheaply made) toys. And wasn't until I was a teen that I realized that Iron Man used to be a B-tier hero. I was so hyped when Iron Man 1 came out and I was not missing that movie. I was a Sophmore in high-school and after the release of Transformers, I was so hyped for this movie.