Yeomen should have an additional effect of making your villagers fight with bows as if they were hunters for the rest of the game for that sweet, sweet historical accuracy and flair! :D
Great video! I would say Ethiopians C -> D / Huns S -> A / Italians B -> A / If there was a S+ tier, Poles would be there. Also Boiling Oil deserved an honorary mention, the meme will live forever in our hearts.
I kinda wish that the Magyar UT were swapped: trash UU feels like a late game tech and recurve bow in castle age would make going for CA earlier in the game more viable
I like that it would be more historical like that but Recurve Bow would probably be both prohibitively expensive to research and absolutely broken when researched in Castle Age.
I agree with this as well, especially since you're not really worried about preserving your gold as much in castle age. Depends on the situation obviously, but I think even as a player I'd prefer to have access to Recurve Bow in castle age as opposed to Corvinian.
So as you asked: Saracens, Vikings and Britons have more expensive techs then Poles, Sicilians cost same total resources but much heavier gold cost, Hindustanis theoriticaly also have tech for 800 resources but it's just food and wood. And I guess some people would make some arguement that Khmer costing 50 less total resources but 150 more gold is in practical sense more costly (Teutons and Aztecs too if you are really low on gold on the map).
Actually its logic that the worst Castle Age Unique Techs are on the "old civs" that were done without thinking in such kind of tech. Mongols, Celts, Chinese, Byzantines are totally fine and perfectly done with such techs cuz they basically didnt need them at all, nobody will argue that Mongol's tech is the worst in all the game, if its for make a change i would make this tech to make you need no more houses anymore (huns vibes) it would be more interesting for sure but as i said i dont think they need any kind of improvement. Btw, nice video as always :)
Yeah I expected Silk Armor in A tier too. Not that expensive and really worth since low turnover is important for Tatars. Issue is probably you won't get it before Imp (but that's also true for others)
Maraufers is not even a decent tech I would say. It makes you go into a niche unique unit slightly better and nothing else, is nothing defining like Anarchy which really makes Goths work Khsatryas is also the best CA tech in the game by a mile. No idea why it is that low
No way Pavise is B tier while Aztec tech is A tier. Pavise costs muuuch less and buffs 3 units including your awesome unique genosse crbws while Atlatl only buffs skirms.
@@xadex3352 but again it's a rating based on how good /worth it is in getting for that civ. Any that are super useful and cheap are going to be A /B tier. Expensive upgrades that only slightly buff your already good units is more of a great but you can potentially skip getting it etc
Agreed with your rankings especially Strongholds and Nomads. I think Nomads should be changed to refund the cost of destroyed TCs or shift the stone cost to food or something. Trash TCs essentially but it wouldn't be that strong because its locked behind a castle. As for Strongholds, maybe it upgrades the celt barracks or castle into a new unique building? I think theres a lot of potential for new building bonuses after the harbour, fulwark, krepost and dungeon
@@sammeegan4590 Its bad game balance to have a unique tech thats intentionally and objectively useless. If Mongols are so strong they literally cant have a castle age tech then thats indicative that the civ needs adjusting
Nice idea! It could be viable to rush the castle, then research the tech before adding TCs. It could cost some economy, but then you'd have more stone long term for more castles (which are so important for Mongols)
@@sneedfest3399Is not objectively bad design. If a civ is strong in other aspects is ok to not have a strong unique tech (And Mongols definitely don't need help already. They are fine, you don't have to make any civ spec into their UT quickly or as a priority. Castle Age is in fact their weak point as a civ since they can't mass Mangudai yet and they are playing without an eco bonus. Plays into their balance)
Wheelbarrow B tier, really good in some situations but it doesn't quell my anger at the world and I'm always later than my opponent to imp if I get it.
Szlachta Privileges might be stronger still. They both make their civs as strong as they are almost single-handedly, but Poles are much stronger than Goths overall.
@@teddyhaines6613 poles cavaliers r too squisy vs any mass FU Alb or CAs. And 30 gold is still quite much to spam continuously. Plus Poles cavaliers r quite weak against specialized paladin or any other HC UU like boyars. Above all, poles dont rely on their knight line while goths rely on huskarl very much
@@ninggengjapchae They'd be too squishy if they had the same numbers dynamic as other cavaliers fighting archers, but the thing about Poles is that they can mass so many cavaliers at once that everything you think you know about their matchups goes out the window. 30 gold means for every three eagles a meso civ could spit out, you have five cavalier that each have over double the HP of an Aztec or Inca elite eagle. Even more than that considering that every stone pile you take pays for six more cavaliers all by itself. The ability of your enemy's archer mass to one shot your cav units suddenly stops mattering once your cavalier outnumber their arbs and any fight they take outside a choke will result in a surround and a cleanup. And if you don't feel confident about that you still have mobility and the ability to split your army into small groups to raid while the archer player will have to keep his numbers in one spot as usual. And Poles may not "rely" on their knight line per se, but their other army options are pretty much all generic, so it is the only thing they've got that won't make you wish you were Chinese or something instead.
Hace you done the team bonus Tier list already? Also, Szlachta Privileges is a tier above all else. They make poles a strong civ from a mediocre civ otherwise.
Celt Strongholds should also get like a 25% more hp, because right now it just feels kinda useless. It would also be pretty cool if Ethiopian Royal Heirs would buff the Shotel Warriors in some sort of way like giving them more pierce armor or something.
Britons, franks, and Saracens UT are former imp UT so the dev still think that it's a strong UT that's why the cost is still a bit expensive. If they lower the cost I think it can be a lower A tier because longbowmen with 5+4 range and mameluke with 85+30 HP is insane.
Agreed entirely and not to mention these are classic civs so I think they suffer from old balancing decisions and maybe some apprehension to change them too much. Regardless, they do become useful, just not usually until imp. I'd personally even rank them lower.
Good video! I love tier lists like this because you learn about the relative positions of techs you haven't even considered before. I was surprised to see Marauders so high because I don't value Tarkans that much. It's interesting how situational everything is. I think this is good design, but for some reason it feels like the game would be more enjoyable if the techs are usable in more games. But maybe that's just an impression -- like it would feel better at first, but if the techs are less situational that means that the player is getting rewarded less for making judgement calls about when to use it and when not to use it -- so it ends up less satisfying long term. As an aside, and sorry in advance for airing a pet peeve here, I would not use the word redundancy the way you're using it here. I get what you mean to say, stacking upgrades has a unique kind of value in AoE2, but I think it's a incorrect usage of a term that's only applicable to: 1. When something is not needed anymore. 2. "the inclusion of extra components which are not strictly necessary to functioning, in case of failure in other components."
Hulche Javelineers is *NOT* +1 attack. It's so much better because its +1 to guaranteed base damage. Mayan skirms will do 2 damage to a paladin, Aztec skirms will do only 1. That makes ALL the difference in the world because it makes skirms decent against things that they should get wiped by, like hussars.
I think what he tried to say is that they don't go for the archer line and regional elephant variants cost food where their equivalents for most civs cost wood, so the food cost of your army is much higher compared to most civs.
So the S tier techs are those you research and put it to effect immediately in Castle Age whereas for others you need to wait for the effects to those techs to reflect later on. Maybe not with Yasama and Eupseong.
Stronghold could make sense from a defensive aspect since Celt mobility aside from woad raiders sucks. Towers in your town late castle, post-imp with Stronghold provides a defense where your army can't quickly get to. Similarly with Koreans and their range bonus.
Enjoyed the tierlist. Mostly agree with you, though I'd put Italians, Turks, and Tatars in A, drop Japanese to B, and drop Dravidians to D. Looking forward to the imp tech one!
I like Celts Stronghold when I’m trying to boom and leaning on a single castle for my entire defense. If you’re under constant duress the tech shows its value
Current basic civ additions. Please give us regional/civ accurate unit skins for all the B,A,S,M units. Either as a purely visible mod/addition or as standard. Add Burning oil as a generic tech for most civs to the university. (Increases defensive arrow fire from castles + 4 attack against rams.) As well as add Tracking,and Cartography back into the game. (More techs and complexity adds more fun and adds more small elements to learn and master.) Add a tech: Gatekeepers as a generic tech for most civs to the Castle - Gates increase the attack of allied units in an AOE of 5 around them by 5% Add a ‘’Builder ship to the dock that allows you to construct sea towers within 5 tiles of the land. Sea tower upgrades to guard sea tower - acts as a regular watch tower and guard tower but does bonus damage to ships . (You pay for both the builder ship as well as for the tower.)
I would put Britons in A tier because Yeomen allows your longbows to outrange castles in imperial age, and lets them fire at bbc at the same time they fire at the longbows, as long as there is no siege engineers or Turks involved.
Really enjoyed the video, thank you for the great content. One potential to further improve: would it be possible for you to rank the civs within each tier?
Strongholds is the sole reason I got to star in a T90 video, so I should be offended by you putting it in D tier, but for standard settings it's deserved.
I have to disagree with many elements of this analysis, including its methodology. I think an analysis of Castle Age UTs really needs to take into consideration the opportunity cost of the research time with time spent starting production on UUs for some civs. This is especially true for Vineyards... I don't understand how you can rank it at the same level as the Burmese and Vietnamese UTs when it gives you the same effect as 1-2 relics (depending on how many farms you have) but without necessitating significantly increased map control and/or micro (moving and protecting monks). It also doesn't make your farms more expensive or harder to micro - you could argue they make farms more valuable, but they'd still be more or less critical to defend anyway. The main issue with the tech is essentially that it enters into tension with starting Coustillier production earlier. In the same way, I'd say that being so terrible is part of the saving grace of Nomads, because you know you'll never research it and you can go to Mangudai direct without a second thought, and you never have to spare Castle production time to research it...which isn't much of a saving grace but worth mentioning. The same idea would go for the 'Button' (possibly others) if we're talking about Imp Age UTs.
I really can't agree with how stronghold is D tier but Medical Corps is on C, sure it doesn't make them incredibly strong or something but it still gives better situational value than medical corps. Like imagine units moving around and typical castle can only shoot 3x but stronghold can shoot 4x, even with missing bracer they actually do hit harder. On the other hand medical corps value is from making elephants, which Dravidians missing elite battle elephants at, I think it's hard to justify this tech at any point
Celts are not a defensive civ, they lack multiple defensive upgrades and bracer. Them having a defensive UT makes *no* sense and it doesn't play into anything Dravidians atleast make EA because of how good Drav EA are
Missing bracer reduces the window for attacks; you're likely to *lose* that extra attack against a unit skirting the edge of your range due to a fully upgraded castle being in range for longer.
I agree, even if Celts castle are meh, Stronghold can still get some utility with defensive castles against raiding units. It's situational (most games don't go long enough), but I'd rate Medical Corps as worse.
Silk armor makes your scout line raiding so annoying because they cannot just research bodkin arrow and garrison TCs in response. They have to bring military back. It also makes your CA absolute tanks trading against xbows.
Pavise makes the Italian crossbows jump to the Vietnamese crossbows level (same number of hits to kill). So what is the Vietnamese level for you? I would say A for pavise. Speaking of Vietnamese. Chatras should be in A. You said (and I agree) that howdah is good for elephants but not A tier because it doesn't make the elephants better against their weaknesses (armor doesn't help against monks and just +1 doesn't make any difference against pikemen) but +100 hp make a difference against pikemen.
Condos honestly have little role for Italians, arbs handle HCs already, Huskarls and Eagles are a problem but Condo doesn't do good against either of the two
Steppe tribes Nomadic architecture set for the Nomad civs, Mongols get Yurt houses and steppe Nomad architecture. Tartars + Cumans get Yurts for dark age houses and Huns too get steppe Nomad architecture. The Mongol Yurts should have less HP but also be much cheaper. With their Unique tech 'Nomads'' if their cheap , low HP Yurts goes down, then they need not create more. It will be perfect. Nomad tech should also give you the opportunity of deleting your tc and rebuild it for free. Armenians should get the current Tatar extra Hill bonus damage for all their units in exchange for faster moving CA + only CA does 15% more hill bonus damage + Tatar, Mongol and Hun scouts have the ability to lame enemies hunt/livestock.(Scorched earth tactics) These civs should also get to train op to 5 hunting wolves in the Dark age (Cost 25 food) Huns should also get steppe lancers (I can’t believe this was not the case from day one.)
Halberdiers do 60 bonus damage to battle elephants. Bengalis reduce that to 45. So instead of a generic Battle Elephant taking 66 damage per hit & dying in 5 hits, a Bengali one takes 48 damage a hit and dies in 7 hits.
It kinda made their armored/siege elephant pretty resilient against shits that usually kill them instantly, well after the calculation change they die faster to those units but they still more resilient than normal armored/siege elephants.
@@CrnaStrela Not quite, armored elephants have innate resistance against bonus damage, similar to cataphracts. That's what does the bulk of damage reduction
My time to share now: Huns in D because they suck. Celts in S because the castles towers fire faster than any other Civs that's good. Poles in S yes but if you want to show off OBUCHS then in A. Because it's always nice to use unique units instead of the boring vanilla units too. The Slavs in S because wood is everywhere on the map. Tatars in S because it's the Taters beautiful building set and again not the Huns. Vietnamese in S because Elephants and again not vanilla looking European units too. Bengalis in S because Rathas, elephants and not vanilla European looking units too. Britons in S because Longbows in a group of 60 wreck anything too. Bulgarians in S yes using the Konniks only because they rock and better then vanilla units. Cumans in S because Steppe lancers are awesome looking and you get 30 of them and 30 Kipchacks do a lot of damage too. Also they don't look like a European units too. Khmer in S because elephants again and not European vanilla units too. Saracens in S because I love the camels too. 60 Mamlukes wreck anything like a tower, group of vanilla knight units too.
Tarkans are not that good compared to Paladin tbh... I don't think it Marauders deserves A tier at all Also Detinets is potentially S tier imo, it makes way more Boyars viable Silk armor is clearly A tier imo
this probably only bothers me and a handful of other people but tier lists that don't go through with the extra step of ordering the objects inside of the tiers are not understanding the fundamental reason why a tier list exists
Unique tech ranking. Haupberg (First Crusade) Yeomen (Warwolf) Logistica (Greek fire) Should be - Fireships damage adjacent ships. (Loses the useless+1 range buff) drive.google.com/file/d/1IC34QduLZ8kxOAw3PXFfAnbpilYrRcGl/view?usp=share_link Lechitic Legacy Hillforts (Tower shields but I want this for a new Messo civ) ‘’Skirmishers and spearmen move 10% faster’’ bonus should go to a new Mapuches/Tarascans civ that forms part of a New DLC. And the (Spearman-line and Skirmishers +2P armour) should go to the Zaputechs. In turn Lithuanians towershields tech applies to their crossbows and their sword line. . Great Wall (Rocketry) Magrebi Camels (Kasbah) Zealotry Atl-Atl (garland wars) Hul’che Javelineers Stirrups cav attack 33% faster (Bagains) Sword line +4 melee armour Silk armour (Timorid siegcraft) Ironclad / Crenelations Thalassocracy Celtic Strongholds (Furor Celtica should be changed to: Ram +40% HP and increased Ram speed) Chivalry - Should gain an added effect - when an enemy's health is reduced to 20% or less by a knight (Knight line or Hospitaller/Templar), there is a 35% chance of it converting to your side. Sepahi Recurve Bow (Corvinian Army) Cuman Mercenaries (Steppe Husbandry) Pavise Nomads Frontier guards Fabrick Shields (Andean Sling) Yasama Eupseong (Tower Range) Tigui Inquisition (Supremacy should go to a more primitive ,vill/trash focus civ like an African/Messo civ) Fabric Shields (Andean Sling) Detinets Chatras Paiks Tusk swords Howdah Medical Corps Polish If they want to nerf Poland I would like it if Szlachta privileges gets nerfed and Lechitic Legacy or Winged Hussar get a slight cost reduction.
I think the most underrated effect of Detinets is that it also reduces the stone repair cost for castles, so easier to win a treb war
37:12 really glad that the teutons unique tech makes slavs' siege units survive better. lol
Yeomen should have an additional effect of making your villagers fight with bows as if they were hunters for the rest of the game for that sweet, sweet historical accuracy and flair! :D
Yeomen already gives two things, you want to add another one?
Great video! I would say Ethiopians C -> D / Huns S -> A / Italians B -> A / If there was a S+ tier, Poles would be there.
Also Boiling Oil deserved an honorary mention, the meme will live forever in our hearts.
I kinda wish that the Magyar UT were swapped: trash UU feels like a late game tech and recurve bow in castle age would make going for CA earlier in the game more viable
Would make more sense from a historical perspective aswell
What you say is a good idea actually. After all, that will make the CAs have 7 range in castle age, which is not crazy at all
I like that it would be more historical like that but Recurve Bow would probably be both prohibitively expensive to research and absolutely broken when researched in Castle Age.
I agree with this as well, especially since you're not really worried about preserving your gold as much in castle age. Depends on the situation obviously, but I think even as a player I'd prefer to have access to Recurve Bow in castle age as opposed to Corvinian.
So as you asked: Saracens, Vikings and Britons have more expensive techs then Poles, Sicilians cost same total resources but much heavier gold cost, Hindustanis theoriticaly also have tech for 800 resources but it's just food and wood. And I guess some people would make some arguement that Khmer costing 50 less total resources but 150 more gold is in practical sense more costly (Teutons and Aztecs too if you are really low on gold on the map).
Wooooooo 2021 ornlu with the back to back tierlist videos
Actually its logic that the worst Castle Age Unique Techs are on the "old civs" that were done without thinking in such kind of tech. Mongols, Celts, Chinese, Byzantines are totally fine and perfectly done with such techs cuz they basically didnt need them at all, nobody will argue that Mongol's tech is the worst in all the game, if its for make a change i would make this tech to make you need no more houses anymore (huns vibes) it would be more interesting for sure but as i said i dont think they need any kind of improvement.
Btw, nice video as always :)
Idk about Marauders, I don't think it's better than Kshatriyas or Yasama. Also silk armor is too low
Yeah I expected Silk Armor in A tier too. Not that expensive and really worth since low turnover is important for Tatars. Issue is probably you won't get it before Imp (but that's also true for others)
Maraufers is not even a decent tech I would say. It makes you go into a niche unique unit slightly better and nothing else, is nothing defining like Anarchy which really makes Goths work
Khsatryas is also the best CA tech in the game by a mile. No idea why it is that low
No way Pavise is B tier while Aztec tech is A tier. Pavise costs muuuch less and buffs 3 units including your awesome unique genosse crbws while Atlatl only buffs skirms.
Atlatl is an Aztech, if you will.
Because if you listened to how he was grading them it's really useful for Aztecs because otherwise their Skirm are meh
Well played cave
@@why_wait true but doesn't change the fact that FU Italian archers are a nightmare because of Pavise.
@@xadex3352 but again it's a rating based on how good /worth it is in getting for that civ. Any that are super useful and cheap are going to be A /B tier. Expensive upgrades that only slightly buff your already good units is more of a great but you can potentially skip getting it etc
It would be better if that thumbnail ornlu the wolf icon wears the castle age unique tech crown icon. Miss the opportunity, Ornlu.
Agreed with your rankings especially Strongholds and Nomads. I think Nomads should be changed to refund the cost of destroyed TCs or shift the stone cost to food or something. Trash TCs essentially but it wouldn't be that strong because its locked behind a castle. As for Strongholds, maybe it upgrades the celt barracks or castle into a new unique building? I think theres a lot of potential for new building bonuses after the harbour, fulwark, krepost and dungeon
mongols do not need a lategame buff. it's good that nomads sucks
@@sammeegan4590 Its bad game balance to have a unique tech thats intentionally and objectively useless. If Mongols are so strong they literally cant have a castle age tech then thats indicative that the civ needs adjusting
Nice idea! It could be viable to rush the castle, then research the tech before adding TCs. It could cost some economy, but then you'd have more stone long term for more castles (which are so important for Mongols)
@@sneedfest3399Is not objectively bad design. If a civ is strong in other aspects is ok to not have a strong unique tech (And Mongols definitely don't need help already. They are fine, you don't have to make any civ spec into their UT quickly or as a priority. Castle Age is in fact their weak point as a civ since they can't mass Mangudai yet and they are playing without an eco bonus. Plays into their balance)
I'd also be interested on a video on generic techs. (masonry S tier obviously)
Murder Holes and Heated Shot in C
Herbal Medicine…..
Wheelbarrow B tier, really good in some situations but it doesn't quell my anger at the world and I'm always later than my opponent to imp if I get it.
Watching this in 2024 you made an excellent work man! Most of the D and C tier techs got buffed because of the things you said 😎
Anarchy is the no.1 UT even including imperial UT. without anarchy, goths r just meme civ like bengalis.
Memegalis
Szlachta Privileges might be stronger still. They both make their civs as strong as they are almost single-handedly, but Poles are much stronger than Goths overall.
@@teddyhaines6613 poles cavaliers r too squisy vs any mass FU Alb or CAs. And 30 gold is still quite much to spam continuously. Plus Poles cavaliers r quite weak against specialized paladin or any other HC UU like boyars.
Above all, poles dont rely on their knight line while goths rely on huskarl very much
@@ninggengjapchae They'd be too squishy if they had the same numbers dynamic as other cavaliers fighting archers, but the thing about Poles is that they can mass so many cavaliers at once that everything you think you know about their matchups goes out the window. 30 gold means for every three eagles a meso civ could spit out, you have five cavalier that each have over double the HP of an Aztec or Inca elite eagle. Even more than that considering that every stone pile you take pays for six more cavaliers all by itself. The ability of your enemy's archer mass to one shot your cav units suddenly stops mattering once your cavalier outnumber their arbs and any fight they take outside a choke will result in a surround and a cleanup. And if you don't feel confident about that you still have mobility and the ability to split your army into small groups to raid while the archer player will have to keep his numbers in one spot as usual.
And Poles may not "rely" on their knight line per se, but their other army options are pretty much all generic, so it is the only thing they've got that won't make you wish you were Chinese or something instead.
Hace you done the team bonus Tier list already?
Also, Szlachta Privileges is a tier above all else. They make poles a strong civ from a mediocre civ otherwise.
Polish eco already makes them a top tier civ, Szlachta makes them insane in some situations
Celt Strongholds should also get like a 25% more hp, because right now it just feels kinda useless.
It would also be pretty cool if Ethiopian Royal Heirs would buff the Shotel Warriors in some sort of way like giving them more pierce armor or something.
I think Bracer for Buildings would actually do something.
Great Tier list, looking forward for the Imperial UT. Also waiting for the final campaigns review. Will it be a EW civ Tier list?
Ornlu's tier list makes my day :)
Britons, franks, and Saracens UT are former imp UT so the dev still think that it's a strong UT that's why the cost is still a bit expensive. If they lower the cost I think it can be a lower A tier because longbowmen with 5+4 range and mameluke with 85+30 HP is insane.
Agreed entirely and not to mention these are classic civs so I think they suffer from old balancing decisions and maybe some apprehension to change them too much. Regardless, they do become useful, just not usually until imp. I'd personally even rank them lower.
Good video! I love tier lists like this because you learn about the relative positions of techs you haven't even considered before.
I was surprised to see Marauders so high because I don't value Tarkans that much. It's interesting how situational everything is. I think this is good design, but for some reason it feels like the game would be more enjoyable if the techs are usable in more games. But maybe that's just an impression -- like it would feel better at first, but if the techs are less situational that means that the player is getting rewarded less for making judgement calls about when to use it and when not to use it -- so it ends up less satisfying long term.
As an aside, and sorry in advance for airing a pet peeve here, I would not use the word redundancy the way you're using it here. I get what you mean to say, stacking upgrades has a unique kind of value in AoE2, but I think it's a incorrect usage of a term that's only applicable to:
1. When something is not needed anymore.
2. "the inclusion of extra components which are not strictly necessary to functioning, in case of failure in other components."
Nomad tech should give you the opportunity of deleting your tc and rebuild it for free.
yesssssssssss!!!!!! finally!!!!! :D :D I am so happy!!! thanks for this tierlist Ornlu! ok, now I watch 11
Hulche Javelineers is *NOT* +1 attack. It's so much better because its +1 to guaranteed base damage.
Mayan skirms will do 2 damage to a paladin, Aztec skirms will do only 1. That makes ALL the difference in the world because it makes skirms decent against things that they should get wiped by, like hussars.
It's not really a guaranteed because the extra javelin accuracy is kinda terrible, you are more likely to get scammed
No one:
Ornlu: "Szlakta privileges"
16:35 "most Gurgaras units either cost food and gold or food and wood"
And here I thought their units were gonna cost stone
I think what he tried to say is that they don't go for the archer line and regional elephant variants cost food where their equivalents for most civs cost wood, so the food cost of your army is much higher compared to most civs.
Also AoE1 Slingers and SWGB Gungan Shield Generator want to have a conversation with you.
So the S tier techs are those you research and put it to effect immediately in Castle Age whereas for others you need to wait for the effects to those techs to reflect later on. Maybe not with Yasama and Eupseong.
Stronghold could make sense from a defensive aspect since Celt mobility aside from woad raiders sucks. Towers in your town late castle, post-imp with Stronghold provides a defense where your army can't quickly get to. Similarly with Koreans and their range bonus.
The tech improving fire galleys is in *sea* tier.
Badum-tss
Enjoyed the tierlist. Mostly agree with you, though I'd put Italians, Turks, and Tatars in A, drop Japanese to B, and drop Dravidians to D. Looking forward to the imp tech one!
I like Celts Stronghold when I’m trying to boom and leaning on a single castle for my entire defense. If you’re under constant duress the tech shows its value
Pre nerf harbor I think it's quite good against land units which is always used in a small pond for a tower without costing stone.
Slavs bonus is so insane. Dropping 6 castles is pretty hilarious
If only we still had Boiling Oil
Why? It was awful
Yeah, if only celts could get a partner at the bottom 11
Current basic civ additions.
Please give us regional/civ accurate unit skins for all the B,A,S,M units. Either as a purely visible mod/addition or as standard.
Add Burning oil as a generic tech for most civs to the university. (Increases defensive arrow fire from castles + 4 attack against rams.) As well as add Tracking,and Cartography back into the game. (More techs and complexity adds more fun and adds more small elements to learn and master.)
Add a tech: Gatekeepers as a generic tech for most civs to the Castle - Gates increase the attack of allied units in an AOE of 5 around them by 5%
Add a ‘’Builder ship to the dock that allows you to construct sea towers within 5 tiles of the land.
Sea tower upgrades to guard sea tower - acts as a regular watch tower and guard tower but does bonus damage to ships . (You pay for both the builder ship as well as for the tower.)
I would put Britons in A tier because Yeomen allows your longbows to outrange castles in imperial age, and lets them fire at bbc at the same time they fire at the longbows, as long as there is no siege engineers or Turks involved.
Should we add Feudal age unique techs? Dock unique techs?
I didn't even remember what was the Celt tech, but somehow I had a feeling it was one of the D-tier ones.
Really enjoyed the video, thank you for the great content. One potential to further improve: would it be possible for you to rank the civs within each tier?
Nomads should research instantly and give +25 population space. So if you get housed, boom, more space!
Very interesting. Can't wait for the imperial version.
Strongholds is the sole reason I got to star in a T90 video, so I should be offended by you putting it in D tier, but for standard settings it's deserved.
Does Yeomen affect Skirmishers? I thought it didn't?
I have to disagree with many elements of this analysis, including its methodology. I think an analysis of Castle Age UTs really needs to take into consideration the opportunity cost of the research time with time spent starting production on UUs for some civs. This is especially true for Vineyards... I don't understand how you can rank it at the same level as the Burmese and Vietnamese UTs when it gives you the same effect as 1-2 relics (depending on how many farms you have) but without necessitating significantly increased map control and/or micro (moving and protecting monks). It also doesn't make your farms more expensive or harder to micro - you could argue they make farms more valuable, but they'd still be more or less critical to defend anyway. The main issue with the tech is essentially that it enters into tension with starting Coustillier production earlier. In the same way, I'd say that being so terrible is part of the saving grace of Nomads, because you know you'll never research it and you can go to Mangudai direct without a second thought, and you never have to spare Castle production time to research it...which isn't much of a saving grace but worth mentioning. The same idea would go for the 'Button' (possibly others) if we're talking about Imp Age UTs.
I really can't agree with how stronghold is D tier but Medical Corps is on C, sure it doesn't make them incredibly strong or something but it still gives better situational value than medical corps. Like imagine units moving around and typical castle can only shoot 3x but stronghold can shoot 4x, even with missing bracer they actually do hit harder. On the other hand medical corps value is from making elephants, which Dravidians missing elite battle elephants at, I think it's hard to justify this tech at any point
Celts are not a defensive civ, they lack multiple defensive upgrades and bracer. Them having a defensive UT makes *no* sense and it doesn't play into anything
Dravidians atleast make EA because of how good Drav EA are
Missing bracer reduces the window for attacks; you're likely to *lose* that extra attack against a unit skirting the edge of your range due to a fully upgraded castle being in range for longer.
Viper has used it a couple times on arena to great success
I agree, even if Celts castle are meh, Stronghold can still get some utility with defensive castles against raiding units. It's situational (most games don't go long enough), but I'd rate Medical Corps as worse.
Silk armor makes your scout line raiding so annoying because they cannot just research bodkin arrow and garrison TCs in response. They have to bring military back. It also makes your CA absolute tanks trading against xbows.
It also means you can make light cav and reliably deal with xbows.
Pavise makes the Italian crossbows jump to the Vietnamese crossbows level (same number of hits to kill). So what is the Vietnamese level for you? I would say A for pavise.
Speaking of Vietnamese. Chatras should be in A. You said (and I agree) that howdah is good for elephants but not A tier because it doesn't make the elephants better against their weaknesses (armor doesn't help against monks and just +1 doesn't make any difference against pikemen) but +100 hp make a difference against pikemen.
Vietnamese HP is free, you've to build a castle for Italians and pay for the upgrade which is a lot of time in tighter xbow and arb builds
@@StraightEdgeNexus remember that you need pavise for the condottieros.
@@SIGNOR-G Condo is a stopgap untill you get Champions. Other than that, they might see some use against GP heavy civs.
Condos honestly have little role for Italians, arbs handle HCs already, Huskarls and Eagles are a problem but Condo doesn't do good against either of the two
@@StraightEdgeNexus Yeah they got nerfed out of being strong and now are just an imp power spike or temp switch.
Steppe tribes
Nomadic architecture set for the Nomad civs, Mongols get Yurt houses and steppe Nomad architecture. Tartars + Cumans get Yurts for dark age houses and Huns too get steppe Nomad architecture. The Mongol Yurts should have less HP but also be much cheaper.
With their Unique tech 'Nomads'' if their cheap , low HP Yurts goes down, then they need not create more. It will be perfect.
Nomad tech should also give you the opportunity of deleting your tc and rebuild it for free.
Armenians should get the current Tatar extra Hill bonus damage for all their units in exchange for faster moving CA + only CA does 15% more hill bonus damage + Tatar, Mongol and Hun scouts have the ability to lame enemies hunt/livestock.(Scorched earth tactics) These civs should also get to train op to 5 hunting wolves in the Dark age (Cost 25 food)
Huns should also get steppe lancers (I can’t believe this was not the case from day one.)
Celts S tier vs the AI
no way sipahi is b tier and marauders is s tier, +20 hp or ranged units is huge
tarkans are way too situational even with marauders, 99% kt line is just better so i think its B tier.
I think silk armor is one of the bests. I disagree with covinian army choice as well. Great video!
No one expects the Spanish inquisition
Can anyone explain me that why -25% less damaged received by Bengali elephants don't make them super strong?
Because bonus damage against them still huge
Halberdiers do 60 bonus damage to battle elephants.
Bengalis reduce that to 45.
So instead of a generic Battle Elephant taking 66 damage per hit & dying in 5 hits, a Bengali one takes 48 damage a hit and dies in 7 hits.
@@TheIanOakley That, and the units the bonus covers are very expensive. Very little cost-effectiveness for BE and EA
It kinda made their armored/siege elephant pretty resilient against shits that usually kill them instantly, well after the calculation change they die faster to those units but they still more resilient than normal armored/siege elephants.
@@CrnaStrela Not quite, armored elephants have innate resistance against bonus damage, similar to cataphracts. That's what does the bulk of damage reduction
Berbers should be S for the treb wars and the amount of impact in team games
My time to share now: Huns in D because they suck. Celts in S because the castles towers fire faster than any other Civs that's good. Poles in S yes but if you want to show off OBUCHS then in A. Because it's always nice to use unique units instead of the boring vanilla units too. The Slavs in S because wood is everywhere on the map. Tatars in S because it's the Taters beautiful building set and again not the Huns. Vietnamese in S because Elephants and again not vanilla looking European units too. Bengalis in S because Rathas, elephants and not vanilla European looking units too. Britons in S because Longbows in a group of 60 wreck anything too. Bulgarians in S yes using the Konniks only because they rock and better then vanilla units. Cumans in S because Steppe lancers are awesome looking and you get 30 of them and 30 Kipchacks do a lot of damage too. Also they don't look like a European units too. Khmer in S because elephants again and not European vanilla units too. Saracens in S because I love the camels too. 60 Mamlukes wreck anything like a tower, group of vanilla knight units too.
Man, you really confused teuton explanation mixing them up with Slavs 😂😂
Tarkans are not that good compared to Paladin tbh... I don't think it Marauders deserves A tier at all
Also Detinets is potentially S tier imo, it makes way more Boyars viable
Silk armor is clearly A tier imo
I agree with you
this probably only bothers me and a handful of other people but tier lists that don't go through with the extra step of ordering the objects inside of the tiers are not understanding the fundamental reason why a tier list exists
Unique tech ranking.
Haupberg (First Crusade)
Yeomen (Warwolf)
Logistica (Greek fire) Should be - Fireships damage adjacent ships. (Loses the useless+1 range buff)
drive.google.com/file/d/1IC34QduLZ8kxOAw3PXFfAnbpilYrRcGl/view?usp=share_link
Lechitic Legacy
Hillforts (Tower shields but I want this for a new Messo civ) ‘’Skirmishers and spearmen move 10% faster’’ bonus should go to a new Mapuches/Tarascans civ that forms part of a New DLC.
And the (Spearman-line and Skirmishers +2P armour) should go to the Zaputechs.
In turn Lithuanians towershields tech applies to their crossbows and their sword line. .
Great Wall (Rocketry)
Magrebi Camels (Kasbah)
Zealotry
Atl-Atl (garland wars)
Hul’che Javelineers
Stirrups cav attack 33% faster (Bagains) Sword line +4 melee armour
Silk armour (Timorid siegcraft)
Ironclad / Crenelations
Thalassocracy
Celtic Strongholds (Furor Celtica should be changed to: Ram +40% HP and increased Ram speed)
Chivalry - Should gain an added effect - when an enemy's health is reduced to 20% or less by a knight (Knight line or Hospitaller/Templar), there is a 35% chance of it converting to your side.
Sepahi
Recurve Bow (Corvinian Army)
Cuman Mercenaries (Steppe Husbandry)
Pavise
Nomads
Frontier guards
Fabrick Shields (Andean Sling)
Yasama
Eupseong (Tower Range)
Tigui
Inquisition (Supremacy should go to a more primitive ,vill/trash focus civ like an African/Messo civ)
Fabric Shields (Andean Sling)
Detinets
Chatras
Paiks
Tusk swords
Howdah
Medical Corps
Polish
If they want to nerf Poland I would like it if Szlachta privileges gets nerfed and Lechitic Legacy or Winged Hussar get a slight cost reduction.