Sincere feedback from a long time viewer: The live stream format killed this tier list for me. I'm already 36 minutes in and feel like it hasn't gone anywhere because of all the extra talking to chat. I was really looking forward to this since these tier lists are my favorite series of yours, but it needs to be a lot closer to 1 hour run time. I Still left a like, but I cannot finish this video.
This is a long time viewer, he comments on every video! I think that input from the chat lead to a stronger tier list overall, but there's no denying that it made what are already long videos even longer. I'm not sure how much of the extra length is from interacting with chat and how much is simply from the insane amount of content there is to talk about in Gen 5 with the largest ever new pokedex, the new xp system, reusable tms, and the wonky evolution levels. The livestream itself was popular enough that I can't promise that the next tier list will be done solo (and I also enjoyed making it in the livestream format way more than recording by myself for hours) but I will definitely be more aggressive in cutting out chat interaction in the edited version. I'll run a community poll again now that the edited version is available to be compared to the livestream - thank you for letting me know!
That's why you gotta watch it live. I was in the stream and honestly I had a lot of fun. Seeing chat react to each ranking and seeing imported cheese react was such a fun experience and the time flew by for me. I agree that as a video, this format wasn't good, but as a livestream, it was great
@@ImportedCheese Perhaps you could still do your livestream and then instead of editing out parts to make a shorter, but still long video, you could do solo recording with points taken from the livestream. That could potentially get a video like this one closer to the lengths of the other tier list videos but at the same time, that's even more work for you since that's even more voice recording and editing compared to this style of video. I haven't watched this video nor was I there for the livestream but I watched said livestream after when it was uploaded and I just mashed the right key when discussion wasn't interesting me. Not everyone has the time and/or patience for that though
I don't think I'd re-record a solo list after a livestream, it would just be too much work for too little gain. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the edited video if you ever get a chance to see it! The 5 hour VoD is brutal, I wouldn't expect anyone to sit through it without being able to interact with the chat.
Bro, that explanation of Japan’s isolation in the 1600’s leading up to James Turner making Vanilluxe was Top Tier Comedy. I literally laughed out loud. 😂😂😂
I'd like to offer an alternative perspective to those upset about Snivy's placement being too low. If this video is seen as a numbered list, then Snivy placed 18th out of 73.
The movepool for the Snivy line is really bad, and omits the things good competitive grass types are known for: Strong status moves and setup. It's rather sad when Serperior has the perfect stats to run setup moves, and all it gets is Leech Seed and Toxic in regular play. (hell, in all of Gen 5 outside of Contrary)
@@AryFemMtF I feel like the Contrary + Leaf Storm set is generally more useful than physical Serperior, assuming we're still talking about competitive. Serperior's special movepool isn't terribly deep (it's basically just Leaf Storm and Dragon Pulse tbh), but unlike with Coil, you don't need to spend a turn setting up--Leaf Storm is already a strong attack on its own, and it ALSO boosts your Special Attack by 2 stages just for using it, so you're basically gaining sweeping momentum for free. Now, if Serperior got Dragon Dance, that'd be a bit of a different story--even though it's already pretty fast, Serperior would definitely appreciate the speed buff.
The Veteran with the Darmanitan on Route 18 is _THE_ Nuzlocke-ending random trainer of BW. If you don't have a Water mon up front, prepare to sack something.
I honestly don't know why but when I was younger I used to think the evolution method for Shelmet and Karrablast was having them both get hit at once by an electric type spread move in a double battle
That does make sense, though, because their pokedex entries say that they need to be exposed to a current together (i.e. trading). I brought both to chargestone cave and leveled one up and got angry when it didn’t evolve when I was a kid, I thought it was like Mt. Coronet evolutions.
@@WeebJail These games released post-internet, but they were brand-new games. Not everyone knew everything there was to know about the games, and the Pokédex specifically said they had to be exposed to an electric current. There was once a time where I would play video games blind, only googling when I got stuck. I kind of miss those days.
@@Hadaron some kids have strict parents that dont let them use the internet, i was one of those kids and i played post internet. remember, not every child has internet access.
As long as this video is, I enjoyed every second of it. The extra detail, research, and personality chat brought produced a really strong list. I was also pleased to see you take a Pokémon's matchups against the E4 into account. One thing I'm surprised you didn't mention was Eviolite, which you get early and smooths out the long journey to evolution many Unovamons have. Darumaka, Krokorok, and Fraxure all love that thing.
Having played Gen V more than any other generation, as it was my first gen, I think that despite some of the designs being a little bit questionable at times, you have to give the Gen some credit for not populating the Sea tier up the wazoo. I think it also served to balance out the sheer quantity of Water types in the Pokeverse because of that.
Personally I don't mind the object mons in gen 5 (though I might be a tiny bit biased because I also started on gen 5.) Because let's be honest, which one looks more inspired a pile of sludge, or a radioactive trash bag monster that has a gunk cannon or another example literally balls (well, pokeballs) or sentient ice cream that is actually a meta joke.Not that it has anything to do with how they perform in their respective games, (though I do like hisuian Voltorb/electrode better) I just think the designs aren't all that questionable to begin with, especially when you compare them to previous, or even future titles granted there's still pokemon like basculin (which got better 3 gens later) alomomola, buffolant, and audino (which can learn a ridiculous amount of tms).But at this point it's a given that not all of them will end up being great.(also the three elemental monkeys suck.)
The Gen V designs are all super cool designs but like 10% too cute and artsy to give off the vibe that Gen 1 and Gen 2 pokemon gave off. It's a stylistic choice that I can respect but I think making them all 10% edgier would have made me like them more
@mannysilver211 alomomola ruined competitive singles for me. It's literally broken. This pokémon has a purpose in comp people just never saw the vision.
I like how you include availability in your analysis. Most of the fans involved in discourse around these games tend to forget, but this is a game for small children. They don't always have the patience to travel all the way back to Route 1, use surf, collect the Larvesta egg, and grind it to level 64 for Volcarona.
I would put Lillipup in S Tier simply because it recently dethroned Excadrill as the solo Pokemon of choice for world record BW speedruns. I still don't think I would put it above Excadrill for an average ingame playthrough, but it definitely belongs in S if it can solo the game in 3 hours. That said, these tiering videos have been a lot of fun these last few days and I subbed to you after this one, the unhinged Vanilluxe rant sold me. Can't wait to see the trilogy DVD set that will be the Kalos regional dex tier list lmao.
Darn, I wasn't aware Lillipup was THAT chad...maybe S? Thanks for subbing hope to see you around! We'll see how long Kalos is gonna be, it's gonna be...really...long...
@@gypsysprite4824 high attack, decent speed, pretty much unresisted coverage between STAB return, crunch, and reversal. then work up prevents you from needing to buy as many x items. plus it's a bit earlier in the game. probably some other things I'm missing but that's the general gist of it.
@@Bluecrimson217 I catch every mon regardless, so I know about these rare encounters. But, yeah, it's still kinda lame. My point that the availability is still pretty good if you're willing to search a bit, so putting them down a tier is a bit of a reach.
Only thing I will say for Serperior is I have fond memories of a coil variant with aqua tail and iron tail for some extra coverage... but that's only for b2/w2
I distinctly remember Litwick being incredibly easy to level up to match my team because ghost typing + the rubberband EXP system let me solo a couple Audino and it immediately started pulling its own weight. The gen 5 EXP system made it easier than ever to add new mons onto your team. I was kinda bummed that availability was given the same amount of importance as the other tier lists.
vanillux, in world, is supposed to be a an icicle and inadvertently looked like an ice cream cone to us. it is not an food based Pokémon, it is an environmental camouflage based pokemon. by doing this, he brings more life into the pokemon worlds snow environments while still comically resembling an ice cream cone. he is a cool pokemon
A note: I LOVE the small bits of translation information that you give for some of the Pokemon. It is so fun to see how Pokemon get their names and the little lore behind abilities and moves, etc.
Look at this guy doing my boy Cincinno dirty. Expert belt Technician with Tail Slap, Rock Blast, Bullet Seed, and Wake-up Slap hits disgustingly hard for how early you can get it. It should be closer to Druddigon, and there's no way it should be below 'no stabs besides Return and Fly' Unfezant.
@@ImportedCheese See you in BW2 then? Then again, that dex is a bit more crowded so it loses out in comparison. I did enjoy the stream though, even if I did see it after the fact.
@@ImportedCheese Technician is not that much worse than Skill Link. 3 hits with Technician results in 112.5 base power, compared to 125 with Skill Link, 4 and 5 hits is always stronger. Technician also has the benefit of being able to use other coverage moves such as Wake-Up Slap.
well it is kind of trash. the only reason its ""useful"" is because of its gimmicks. even then, its stats are ass even after it evolves, and its ugly as sin, like most gen 5 pokemon.
I said it in the stream and I'll say it again, I still do not get why of all trashmons, the vanillite line gets so much hate. Literally nothing else turner has produced has had that same level of hate either. For me, it's annoying on another level to still, after like 10 years, see such a harmless design get driven into the ground for incredibly subjective reasons. This little ice cream mon was once used by genwunners as a shitty scapegoat to drag the entirety of gen 5 down and it doesn't really sit well with me that after gen 5 has had its turnaround and everyone agrees on it being a truly excellent entry to the franchise, it's still getting dunked on. My mans it's been a decade, find a new target. Loved the history lessons tho
That mans an ice cream. Ill eat him It aint a Pokemon. Trash design and trash from a gameplay point of view both in game and in PVP. It fails to justify its own existance.
@@RinaShinomiyaVal That mons a pile sludge I'll wipe it up That mons a bunch of eggs I'll smash them That mon is literally just a ball I'll kick it That mon is a set of keys I'll jingle it That mon is a lit candle I'll blow it out (etc.)
@@RinaShinomiyaVal and for pvp, you dont seem to know it has a legitimate niche in RU with snow warning, and arguably does it better than aurorus. It hits hard as hell with stab blizzard, it had a serious niche in a tier with pokemon like milotic, machamp, cloyster, venusaur and friggin FLYGON. You dont have to beat necrozma dusk mane to have a legit use somewhere.
I'll admit that SOME of the hate was an excuse to go on a Japanese history tangent. ...I still don't like Vanillite though, and it gets hate a decade later because it's still the worst we've seen, it deserves it. Nice try, James Turner!
why is route 4 just the most stacked route ever, also ground type competition is insane sense there are so many good ground types. also megainium deserves the more recognition due to it being the best grass type in the gen 2 games.
Also in lore it’s an icicle just covered by snow. Also the Casteliacone (in universe ice cream) was based off of Vanilluxe so no one would have ice cream if not for Vanillite’s line! what’s that? you don’t care? oh, alright… ☹️
Gotta disagree with the Cubchoo. My team didn't have a good answer for the dragon gym, which uses dragon tail for everything. You just need powerful supereffective hits - speed doesn't matter. And you can catch Cubchoo relatively near when it levels up. It's only got one job but it does it well.
Regarding your question about Adaptability, I have my own take on the name. I remember a while back looking into Adaptability and noticed that GameFreak tends to use it for Pokémon who canonically are invasive species. See stuff like Crawdaunt, Basculin or Gumshoos for an example, they are all Pokémon who the dex describes as an invasive species. With that in mind I think the Adaptability in the name is less about "They change to match their surrounding better" but more along the lines of "The Pokémon with this ability are very good at doing their thing, so much so that they can thrive and dominate even in ambients they are not native to without the need to change their gameplan" It's definitely still a very stange ability name though and I'm not even sure if this interpretation makes sense
Ugh, as much as I like the design, using the Snivy line in my White game was SO frustrating I ended up using Oshawott instead for White 2. A defensive status user isn't fun for going through the main game, and I remember it having some irritating holes in its move pool preventing it from being a great stall pokemon in competitive.
Generally really liked the edit. Live stream format is fun and the chat interaction is mostly fine, but 5 hours was just a bit too much for me. I will note that some of the re-explanations could probably be cut out to help the pacing. I'm very much looking forward to BW2 tier-list, I'm predicting Lucario's gonna be at least A if not S since you get Riolu mad early.
I really enjoyed bein part of this tier list. The chat rants, the basculin deffenders, me finding out that James Turner making Vanilluxe is not a misconception and an actual thing (I have been deceived all this years), just overall bantering with Cheese, it was extremely fun. I think this also lead to one of the most "perfected" lists, since there won't be any people saying "OMG YOU FORGOT YOU CAN CATCH THAT POKÉMON IN A SINGLE PATCH OF GRASS IN THAT SIDE AREA" and such, which is cool. I hope that next lists are also done in this format! Even if I can't partake in them, I know chat will do a great job not just levelling the opinions to a more cohesive ground, but also make the process of creating the tier list funnier for Cheese! Which I think is a win-win!
Yeah, a lot of the extra length is from bickering that would have been happening in the comments afterwards, this way we get a more accurate list! ...But a consequence is that uh, it's long...
@@ImportedCheese it ends up being a thing of personal opinion. I remember back in the day watching SilverLeagueNetworks videos (ignoring the recent news of what has transpired of that individual to this point I'm making) which were notoriously huge, but full of good arguments. A fair share of people in the comments used to complain about the lenght, but I personally enjoyed them.
Leavanny allowed me to have the easiest time I’ve ever had with Cynthia. She starts with Spiritomb and I realized that it goes for will-o-wisp and then just spams double team. I healed my burn, and set up with sword dance right in that Spiritomb’s face. One shot her entire team with leaf blade and return. Also swept Caitlyn, Shauntal and Grimsley in the rematch with this strat😝
@@ImportedCheese Because a Dragon type starter would be "too powerful" because it would not be weak to the other starter it's supposed to be weak to. What's that? Mega Charizard X and Mega Sceptile got to be Dragon-type starters? (Well technically only Sceptile since you can't start with Charmander in any games that have megas). Empoleon got to lose its Grass weakness? Gamefreak, learn how to balance your game!
@@tdawgmaster1729 1. A mega evolution isnt the same as an permanent final evolution 2. Empoleons type was made with torterras and infernapes secondary types in mind, both of which beat steel types like it.
If there is 1 pkmn that nearly made me quit, it's Eiscue. Boy looks so out of place and low effort, especially when his ice breaks. However, gen 8's pkmn designs are overall fantastic imo. And secretly, I love Eiscue because of its strength as a belly drum sweep in low tiers XD.
Basculin should be A tier, and I'm tired of pretending it's not. Look at it like a sort of off-brand Sawk. It's a bit faster, and actually hits a bit harder with waterfall/aqua tail thanks to adaptability. While both have limited levelup move pools, Sawk's fighting type is definitely better, and it has a better tm movepool. Sawk's defenses are slightly better too, although Basculin's water type gives it a slight advantage, I'd argue. Overall Basculin isn't super exciting, but I think you underestimate how hard and fast it hits out of the gate, with no investment.
I used basculin and it is indeed quite good but the big problem in black and white though is just that it’s obtained way to late (after 6th badge) so that renders it enough to not get A tier imo (I know you can have a traded one in driftveil but it doesn’t have adaptability)
Fun fact: Because of its 10% burn chance, Flare Blitz gets the 1.3x Sheer Force power boost (in addition to the 1.5x STAB boost). It's essentially a delete button on Darmanitan.
@@athath2010 It's an absolute monster, easily one of my favourite Unova Pokemon, but absolutely terrifying to encounter on someone else's team in a Nuzlocke. Fortunately, there's normally only one or two NPC trainers that have one, but there are quite a few that have Darumaka, and Darumaka is no slouch either.
@@ImportedCheese so I did a little digging and it appears that while game freak never made any official reasons as to why it learns steel wing, the most likely reason is that it was indeed an error, tm 51 in gen 5 is ally switch (a move that makes sense for it to learn) but In gen 6 it was changed to steel wing, and beeheyem had it's data transferred over from gen 5 without double checking.
"Creatively bankrupt" regarding bad gen 5 designs is a bit of a misnomer. I would need to research this to be sure but I'm pretty sure every Pokemon design was done by a different person on team and then later adapted by Sugumori. They really wanted the gen to feel fresh and this was one of those strides in doing so.
Gen 5 still feels so recent to me, lol. I started with Hoenn so I have all the nostalgia for ruby, but even without that there are some mons in gen 5 that I absolutely love.
Decided to play BW for its entirety this weekend and since I had already gone through the first half of the game I decided to randomise it to discover new mons earlier. Had Deino as my starter and was so excited to have a dragon dark starter. Googled its name once I didn’t see it evolve at level 35. Cried. 10/10 would do again.
Gen 5 have excellent balance. In any Pokemon game, Cover Legendaries solo the endgame with ease... that doesn't happen in Gen 5. You actually need a balanced team to finish the game.
I think the Mienfoo line is a solid A tier in X/Y. Sure, it's overshadowed by Mega Lucario and takes a lot of time to evolve but Mienfoo can dish out a lot of damage with Jump Kick and Drain Punch until it evolves and it has some solid abilities. Mienshao basically ties with Houndoom as my overall favorite Pokemon and Mienshao was the true star of both my Unova and Kalos teams.
Musharna also gets Recover I believe, which makes its low speed not as big a deal. If you're getting hit too much, you've got free recovery there. As an aside, yeah, there's just way too much chat interaction in this one. We're forty minutes in and just now getting to pinwheel forest. I think an ideal time to get through the first forest is around twenty to thirty minutes if not sooner.
@@cadencenavigator958 Maybe, but in BW/B2W2 TM 51 was Ally Switch, a much more logical move for an alien-based psychic pokemon; they clearly forgot to update the moveset after changing the actual move TM 51 teaches.
With how high level a lot of these gen 5 evos are it almost makes me think Gen 5 was originally going to have a really high level curve like XY but decided to go against it at the last minute It's weird looking at Gen 5 gym leader levels and then XY to see Wulfric's ace being almost level 60 Evolution levels would still be ass but at least it wouldn't feel like you were carrying deadweight for a really long time
I'm gonna have to disagree on Tepig. It's slow. It's nothing too special. And Darumaka basically renders it obsolete. Granted, Drumaka is 'above' Tepig. But I don't think Tepig can be in the same tier as Darumaka; since why use Tepig when you have Darumaka? Also; I'd actually argue low S for Petilil. It's movepool is trash but Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance is all it needs, and it's fast and hard-hitting enough to just blast stuff without st-up; set-up just lets it outright sweep things like Ghetsis. And if you're playing the version it's not native in, you get an in-game trade with a 31 IV Sp.Atk Modest one.
Yes, another person pushing for S-Tier Lilligant! Perhaps Cheese will see the light in the BW2 tier list?? Or perhaps he will remain MIRED IN HIS OWN IGNORANCE AND ANTI-GRASS BIAS??
Lenora kinda lives, like, half a kilometer from a bunch of Fighting types, so I totally agree. If other Fighting types weren't available, though, Tepig would be the best option, because Lenora is really difficult.
shout out to patrat for being the lowest base stat total of any unova pokemon, and shout out to watchog for being the lowest base stat total of any fully evolved unova pokemon.
My only complaint about Gen 5 is the starters. It makes no sense that the starters are based off royalty of other countries (serperior = French, Emboar = Chinese Emperor, samurott = samurai). If anything the gen 3 starters fit better then they do
I...don't think they are? Emboar is a companion of sun wukong (infernape ripoff!!) and samurai are pretty far from royalty, they're more like hired goons
Regarding team variety, I’ve often wondered if the intention was to encourage the player to fill out the Pokédex as they go, trading out Pokémon after each big challenge. This is evidenced by how N builds new teams from the local Pokémon each time you battle.
@@ImportedCheese Exactly. It also explains some of the strangely high evolution levels. They evolve later because you should be in the zone of that level curve at that part of the game. From a designer perspective, I can see that they might have wanted to make the time period you are “experiencing” a Pokémon line feel about the same at each part of the game. That said, I’m a big fan of trading over eggs for repeat play throughs, so these high level evolutions often make that idea null for certain mons. Recently, they did start fixing this issue. In the Pokémon Sword DLC, you can get a Braviary in the 20’s, making it viable for the main story.
Unless I'm forgetting soemthing, can't you actually only get Basculin and Frillish (And basically every other fish) after you get surf? You know...AFTER you probably have a water type? And like, the 6th badge? Fishing isn't until postgame, either. Somehow... I guess you can trade for a Basculin at gym 5 but even that's pretty late to be getting it IMO. I'd put it at low C.
Sammurott is actually one of the coolest designs of any Pokémon. The shells acting as sheathed swords is awesome, it’s helmet is awesome, it’s facial hair is awesome, and it’s still quadrupedal like an animal should be. Bipedal Pokémon are overrated anyway and too many become bipedal that shouldn’t be. Sammurott was ahead of it’s time.
I played a B/W playthrough last year. It was 2nd time playing Gen V with my first time being when the game came out. On my first playthrough I remember I picked Snivy and hated it but loved the design. This time around I chose Tepig and called him Baconator and I kid you not I randomly put scald on it just because I could with infinite TMs and not having any other good picks for a 4th slot.
Chat is dumb, this is gen 5 with infinite TMs and gen 5 exp A) you can't out level things the best strategy is not "have monke crush everything" B) this means a team of six is more important than ever since they will catach up quick, availability = more important than ever C) infinite TMs and exp scaling mean mons can be replaced at practically zero cost, so even more support for quick running a team of six D) availability always counted E) all the crazy power mons evolve at levels you won't reach till post game thanks to exp curve
Vanillite is so cute and is a great concept. I love the idea that it’s an icicle with powdered snow on top, and can look different depending on how much it comes down. Its evolutions, however, do not advance the original concept at all and damage the line and leave the bad taste in the mouths of fans that they do (pun intended).
b&w has such super high level evolutions for no reason. Maybe that was done cause they have a rather big postgame? I dont quite know, never got around to playing the postgame myself. But so many pokemon are borderline useless until like lvl 40-50, which is just.. weird. It's not like the game is especially high level.
The best gen. I love the videos btw. Laugh so much at your commentary. Hope you continue the move tier lists at some point. Watched the entire gen 1 moves stream and laughed my ass off.
Cheese: Serperior is the worst one in Gen 5. Also, the EXP system is weird and it’s hard to grind Me, with Tappy the Serperior, the first Pokémon I ever got to level 100: I refuse to believe these lies
Honestly ferrothorn is underrated. It gets curse and gyro ball. Amazing for nuzlockes and surprisingly good for playthroughs. A relaxed Ferrothorn was the star of my White 2 challenge mode nuzlocke. Low C is too harsh for it. I’d say high C or low B. Definitely the best defensive Pokémon for a playthrough.
@@ImportedCheese Ferrothorn has a unique blend of offense and defense thanks to iron barbs doing chip damage as well as getting curse to power up its power whips and gyro ball.
I caught one in my first run, used it alongside Jellicent. Those two pokemon together have such great defensive coverage to fall back on when you lose your offensive mons to something unexpected.
Hey, I love your ingame tier lists ! There is only one placement I disagree with : the Purrloin line is trash and belongs to D tier. It's worse than any Pokémon you ranked D except the "Est archetypes" victory road encounters. Actually it's so bad that having it on your team is a liability 99% of the time. It's stuck with Scratch as its only attacking move until lv14, and even then it only gets Pursuit as a stab until lv28 (Assurance) then 37 (Night slash). This mon will never 1hko, or 2hko anything : against wild pokemon, you're looking at 3hkos at best. It's just free set up fodder for work up/coil/quiver dances, which is really dangerous and makes the game harder than it should be. But that's not all, because Liepard is also really frail. This pokemon dies to any crit or super effective move, even trash coverage. It's the ultimate "it goes first... and then what" pokemon : it dies, that's what lol In b2w2, Liepard is somewhat better (still terrible but better) because of the snarl TM and Dark Pulse move tutor. But in bw it's easily the worst fully evolved pokemon of the dex. It's a Johto tier pokemon stuck in a region full of min maxed beasts. The Patrat line is 100x better because at least you're looking at short term hypnosis utility + a 70BP earlygame stab. All Liepard brings to the table is maybe a dark type to sweep Shauntal if you stock on X attacks, and even that is a stretch. Bottom D tier for sure, even availability can't save something this bad.
@@ImportedCheese I did a soul link where I had to use Liepard, and really wanted to find some use for this mon. I couldn't. I think the most useful it's been was when it used Thunder Wave to catch wild pokemon. But even underleveled wild pokemon could kill it with a crit lol
A very fun tier list as always. I understand I’m 2 years late to this vid and that it probably doesn’t matter because the selection of S tiers is so good, but I think the encounter level is probably the cause of some dissonance in the chat for a lot of these later game Pokemon, specifically Pawniard (level 40ish) and Litwick (level 30ish). I’m sure you did take this into consideration, but the premium tier list edit kind of makes it sound like you will never get the evolved forms of these Pokemon, even though you only really have to get 11-12 levels with them, which is pretty easy to do late in the game. Yes, you miss out on the EVs that your earlier Pokemon will have accumulated a ton of by that point, but your evolved form is so good that it probably doesn’t matter. You would probably have to grind a little for a Bisharp and I wouldn’t honestly recommend using it over any of the S tiers, but I think you could pretty reasonably get a Chandelure before the Elite 4 and I would absolutely recommend having that for the Elite 4.
Samurott: A final evolution starter Pokémon on all 4's that shouldn't be on all 4's. Incineroar: A final evolution starter Pokémon not on all 4's that should have been on all 4's.
My guess for why evo levels are so high in this game is to give you a reason to do the post game that and the fact that you dont actually fight the champion until you rematch the E4
No offence but the 'creatively bankrupt' ranting was pretty cringy ngl; do you feel that strongly about the Diglet or Magnemite lines? Cool tier list apart from that, though.
I wanna make that argument that samurott is better than emboar because samurott gets Megahorn (move relearner), Night Slash (Breeding with liepard), aerial ace (TM), revenge and swords dance, it's coverage is unparalled, and even on the special side it has ice beam(TM), grass knot(TM) and AIR SLASH(Breeding with Swoobat), making it really good against Shaunteal, caitilin, marshal and grimsley, plus alder if you're lucky, it's the best counter against the elite 4, both before and after fighting team plasma
As someone who didnt have time to join in your live stream due to work, chores, and different time zone, i appreciate your edit of the livestream. Thank you cheeseman. Great video as always. As much as i love grass starters, snivy and chiko kinda baaad. But snivy is much better than chiko.
also u overrate blitzle i tried using it in my playthrough n it just gets killed by everything its not good enough to ohko early on and gets killed too fast
Vanilluxe is a great mon fun to use and neat design of an icicle trying to look like ice cream to be more likeable I don't understand the idea that "it's just an ice cream cone" means it's bad honedge is just a sword, Geodude is a rock with arms, Voltorb is a ball with eyes, ect but no for some reason an ice cream cone is the exception
@@ImportedCheese he a funny little ice cream cone and I enjoy blasting dragons to kingdom come you said it's stats weren't very good but I would not be able to tell from my playthrough because he was a beast in the late game
I have so much love for you Cheese and the fact that you care about all of your subscribers on both RUclips and Twitch. I’ve never enjoyed using Twitch to ingest content and I love RUclips and the idea of being able to watch what feels like a “show” and I appreciate you still try to make proper videos. A lot of people give up on RUclips and just focus on streaming. Which I get is profitable. I just wanted to say thank you for making sure we RUclips shills get to enjoy your stuff as well. :)
I think it's hilarious that heatmor was given a signature move in gen 7 when it wasn't even available in the games and then it lost the signature move privileges in gen 8
Also the monkeys are based on the 3 wise monkeys but their evolutions are also based on Japanese counter culture such as simisage being based off of Bōsōzoku, simisage being based off of yankii, and simipour being based off of Kogyaru
I do think Patrat and Purrloin should be D. Even though theyre available early, what are you going to use them for? Lillipup and the starters are just way better, and at least the monkeys have something to do with their elemental types, and help out against the first gym. Purrloin and Watchog have literally nothing to do that lillipup cant, besides maybe eating a psybeam or confusion from a munna in the case of purrloin, but even then lillipup gets bite and can destroy it, especially when its a wild pokemon, not a trainer pokemon. Maybe purrloin can stay where it is, as 88 attack with stab dark isnt the worst, and it will probably go first, but watchog without a useful stab type and not a single stat that breaks 90 absolutely deserves D tier. It does seem to be on par with the other regional rats, though it doesnt even have their utility as an HMployee, as it doesnt learn surf. All in all, Watchog is bad. It deserves to be lower, preferably D.
The chat comment about loving Cheese but him being the embodiment of every genwunner/long time pokemon fan stereotype is spot on lol. I understand that you have to pick some kind of criteria to use for ranking things, but everything about this is hilarious. At least it's mostly intended humor ;P Thanks for the video.
The Vannilite line being low C tier is really strange. STAB Ice Beam at level 36 (right after evolving into Vannilish), it does well vs two late game gyms + Ghetsis’ Hydreigon and it’s encountered not too late in the game unlike the other two Ice types which are absolutely worse due to poorer offensive stats and being far too late. The only flaws it really has is that it evolves late and it’s good attack stat is completely useless. It’s the one placement I completely disagree with, it’s bottom of B tier not bottom of C tier
Audino is a brilliant nuzlocke Pokémon, saved my run with its bulk and coverage, this was White 2, it did far better than the altaria that I caught which turned out to be quite useless
Krookodile has amazing stats and two great abilities and dark ground is a pretty good typing for gen 5, but idk, actually using it on a playthrough team feels kinda weak because sandile and krokorok have pretty bad stats and evolve kinda late I think you only really use krookodiles stats for the eighth gym and elite four
Oh also one thing about magic guard sigilyph. While it's true that in game playthroughs dont worry about indirect damage from stuff like entry hazards or toxic as much it's still really good for fighting on sandstorm or hail routes and, much more importantly, for negating the recoil damage from life orb. Your attack is boosted by 30% basically for free.
"Quadripedal Samurott" is the exact phrase to describe why the whole "we don't need any more starter final evos on two legs" movement is dumb. Samurott on two legs could've been so much more awesome than what we got
Contrary Serperior is not only fun but also pretty good in competitive even if it has like 3 attacks (including hidden power)... In gens 6 and 7, because it's hidden ability wasn't released until gen 6 lol
I like Vanilluxe. I think it’s cute and it’s not like it’s literally ice cream. It’s floating snow on icicles. And I think it’s kinda cool that it gave the people of Pokémon the idea for ice cream.
The high evolutions really killed me in this game. It’s almost like they were encouraging you to use a wider variety of Pokémon by locking some of the better ones behind level walls. I remember when I would play this I would basically dump half my party near the end and just lucky egg audino train a bunch of late game power houses (Chandalure, Electross, Haxourous, Bisharp)
Bro. I wanted Liepard to work so bad when I was playing B&W a year or two ago because I liked the way it looked... It's just so bad early. Doesn't learn anything useable. it's basically scratch and pursuit until level 30 at which point you get assurance or you can get thief tm iirc. Coming off 88 atk/spark it just feels terrible, especially when you have, like, stoutland and exadrill wrecking everything.
Sincere feedback from a long time viewer:
The live stream format killed this tier list for me. I'm already 36 minutes in and feel like it hasn't gone anywhere because of all the extra talking to chat. I was really looking forward to this since these tier lists are my favorite series of yours, but it needs to be a lot closer to 1 hour run time. I Still left a like, but I cannot finish this video.
This is a long time viewer, he comments on every video!
I think that input from the chat lead to a stronger tier list overall, but there's no denying that it made what are already long videos even longer.
I'm not sure how much of the extra length is from interacting with chat and how much is simply from the insane amount of content there is to talk about in Gen 5 with the largest ever new pokedex, the new xp system, reusable tms, and the wonky evolution levels.
The livestream itself was popular enough that I can't promise that the next tier list will be done solo (and I also enjoyed making it in the livestream format way more than recording by myself for hours) but I will definitely be more aggressive in cutting out chat interaction in the edited version.
I'll run a community poll again now that the edited version is available to be compared to the livestream - thank you for letting me know!
That's why you gotta watch it live. I was in the stream and honestly I had a lot of fun. Seeing chat react to each ranking and seeing imported cheese react was such a fun experience and the time flew by for me. I agree that as a video, this format wasn't good, but as a livestream, it was great
@@ImportedCheese Yeah. I feel like you should of cut out more chat stuff, but I hope you make the next one a live stream
@@ImportedCheese Perhaps you could still do your livestream and then instead of editing out parts to make a shorter, but still long video, you could do solo recording with points taken from the livestream. That could potentially get a video like this one closer to the lengths of the other tier list videos but at the same time, that's even more work for you since that's even more voice recording and editing compared to this style of video. I haven't watched this video nor was I there for the livestream but I watched said livestream after when it was uploaded and I just mashed the right key when discussion wasn't interesting me. Not everyone has the time and/or patience for that though
I don't think I'd re-record a solo list after a livestream, it would just be too much work for too little gain.
I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the edited video if you ever get a chance to see it! The 5 hour VoD is brutal, I wouldn't expect anyone to sit through it without being able to interact with the chat.
Bro, that explanation of Japan’s isolation in the 1600’s leading up to James Turner making Vanilluxe was Top Tier Comedy. I literally laughed out loud. 😂😂😂
I'd like to offer an alternative perspective to those upset about Snivy's placement being too low. If this video is seen as a numbered list, then Snivy placed 18th out of 73.
The movepool for the Snivy line is really bad, and omits the things good competitive grass types are known for: Strong status moves and setup.
It's rather sad when Serperior has the perfect stats to run setup moves, and all it gets is Leech Seed and Toxic in regular play. (hell, in all of Gen 5 outside of Contrary)
See! Grass fans should be happy!
@@atmosdwagon4656 toxic/leech seed combo? s tier pokemon?!?
@@atmosdwagon4656 what about coil and leaf blade? I've made a physical serperior and it's really good
@@AryFemMtF I feel like the Contrary + Leaf Storm set is generally more useful than physical Serperior, assuming we're still talking about competitive. Serperior's special movepool isn't terribly deep (it's basically just Leaf Storm and Dragon Pulse tbh), but unlike with Coil, you don't need to spend a turn setting up--Leaf Storm is already a strong attack on its own, and it ALSO boosts your Special Attack by 2 stages just for using it, so you're basically gaining sweeping momentum for free.
Now, if Serperior got Dragon Dance, that'd be a bit of a different story--even though it's already pretty fast, Serperior would definitely appreciate the speed buff.
The Veteran with the Darmanitan on Route 18 is _THE_ Nuzlocke-ending random trainer of BW. If you don't have a Water mon up front, prepare to sack something.
GET HIT WIT ALLA DAT
When I nuzlocked black I lost two runs to unexpected Simipours with Scald. Already hated them but that sold it.
I honestly don't know why but when I was younger I used to think the evolution method for Shelmet and Karrablast was having them both get hit at once by an electric type spread move in a double battle
That's...a very original theory
That does make sense, though, because their pokedex entries say that they need to be exposed to a current together (i.e. trading). I brought both to chargestone cave and leveled one up and got angry when it didn’t evolve when I was a kid, I thought it was like Mt. Coronet evolutions.
well did you happen to play this at elementary school before everyone had internet because that would explain a lot
@@WeebJail
These games released post-internet, but they were brand-new games. Not everyone knew everything there was to know about the games, and the Pokédex specifically said they had to be exposed to an electric current. There was once a time where I would play video games blind, only googling when I got stuck. I kind of miss those days.
@@Hadaron some kids have strict parents that dont let them use the internet, i was one of those kids and i played post internet. remember, not every child has internet access.
As long as this video is, I enjoyed every second of it. The extra detail, research, and personality chat brought produced a really strong list. I was also pleased to see you take a Pokémon's matchups against the E4 into account.
One thing I'm surprised you didn't mention was Eviolite, which you get early and smooths out the long journey to evolution many Unovamons have. Darumaka, Krokorok, and Fraxure all love that thing.
Thank you for watching!
Eviolite would have been good to mention, especially with the insane evo levels...
Even better with drillbur. If you wait 2 levels to evolve excadrill, it learns earthquake by level up. It’s actually nuts
Having played Gen V more than any other generation, as it was my first gen, I think that despite some of the designs being a little bit questionable at times, you have to give the Gen some credit for not populating the Sea tier up the wazoo. I think it also served to balance out the sheer quantity of Water types in the Pokeverse because of that.
Gen 5 needs a Gym Tier or something, these fighters are B U F F
Personally I don't mind the object mons in gen 5 (though I might be a tiny bit biased because I also started on gen 5.) Because let's be honest, which one looks more inspired a pile of sludge, or a radioactive trash bag monster that has a gunk cannon or another example literally balls (well, pokeballs) or sentient ice cream that is actually a meta joke.Not that it has anything to do with how they perform in their respective games, (though I do like hisuian Voltorb/electrode better) I just think the designs aren't all that questionable to begin with, especially when you compare them to previous, or even future titles granted there's still pokemon like basculin (which got better 3 gens later) alomomola, buffolant, and audino (which can learn a ridiculous amount of tms).But at this point it's a given that not all of them will end up being great.(also the three elemental monkeys suck.)
@@ImportedCheese yes do it please, cheese
The Gen V designs are all super cool designs but like 10% too cute and artsy to give off the vibe that Gen 1 and Gen 2 pokemon gave off. It's a stylistic choice that I can respect but I think making them all 10% edgier would have made me like them more
@mannysilver211 alomomola ruined competitive singles for me. It's literally broken. This pokémon has a purpose in comp people just never saw the vision.
Man, I wonder if this guy's going to go on any unhinged rants about the Vanilluxe line. Only one way to find out.
How unhinged are they if they're 100% factual?!
unhinged AND factual! is this content?!
I like how you include availability in your analysis. Most of the fans involved in discourse around these games tend to forget, but this is a game for small children. They don't always have the patience to travel all the way back to Route 1, use surf, collect the Larvesta egg, and grind it to level 64 for Volcarona.
Pokemon Is for everyone. Even masuda says so
I would put Lillipup in S Tier simply because it recently dethroned Excadrill as the solo Pokemon of choice for world record BW speedruns. I still don't think I would put it above Excadrill for an average ingame playthrough, but it definitely belongs in S if it can solo the game in 3 hours.
That said, these tiering videos have been a lot of fun these last few days and I subbed to you after this one, the unhinged Vanilluxe rant sold me. Can't wait to see the trilogy DVD set that will be the Kalos regional dex tier list lmao.
Darn, I wasn't aware Lillipup was THAT chad...maybe S?
Thanks for subbing hope to see you around! We'll see how long Kalos is gonna be, it's gonna be...really...long...
wait, what tf did stoutland do to make itself the BW speedrun mon?
@@gypsysprite4824 high attack, decent speed, pretty much unresisted coverage between STAB return, crunch, and reversal. then work up prevents you from needing to buy as many x items. plus it's a bit earlier in the game. probably some other things I'm missing but that's the general gist of it.
@@SpectralDarkon It's in a better weight tier, so you don't lose as much time from weight animations
@@gypsysprite4824not fat
I think if you value Availability highly, then Panpour should be C tier, because for it to be available you have to pick Snivy as your starter.
You can get it in Pinwheel Forest, too.
@@IndellableHatesHandles As a Shaking Grass mon at 5%, IIRC. Scald ain't worth that kind of effort and everyone knows it.
@@Bluecrimson217 I catch every mon regardless, so I know about these rare encounters. But, yeah, it's still kinda lame. My point that the availability is still pretty good if you're willing to search a bit, so putting them down a tier is a bit of a reach.
@@IndellableHatesHandles It's the best of the monkeys, but the monkeys as a whole are a little bland to me.
That's maybe something that needs to be considered more (like how Bellsprout/Oddish in Gen 1 are way better if you picked Charmander)
Only thing I will say for Serperior is I have fond memories of a coil variant with aqua tail and iron tail for some extra coverage... but that's only for b2/w2
Lots of changes in B2/W2, mostly improvements...wish they were in the base versions...
@@ImportedCheese Are you gonna cover Black and white 2's roster eventually?
I distinctly remember Litwick being incredibly easy to level up to match my team because ghost typing + the rubberband EXP system let me solo a couple Audino and it immediately started pulling its own weight.
The gen 5 EXP system made it easier than ever to add new mons onto your team. I was kinda bummed that availability was given the same amount of importance as the other tier lists.
remember when ghost fire was unique?
vanillux, in world, is supposed to be a an icicle and inadvertently looked like an ice cream cone to us. it is not an food based Pokémon, it is an environmental camouflage based pokemon. by doing this, he brings more life into the pokemon worlds snow environments while still comically resembling an ice cream cone. he is a cool pokemon
I disagree, I do not like it
That some pretty bad camouflage then. Hey I'll hide myself by looking like food what a great idea.
A note: I LOVE the small bits of translation information that you give for some of the Pokemon. It is so fun to see how Pokemon get their names and the little lore behind abilities and moves, etc.
Thank you! Have you seen the 10 japanese move names video?
Look at this guy doing my boy Cincinno dirty. Expert belt Technician with Tail Slap, Rock Blast, Bullet Seed, and Wake-up Slap hits disgustingly hard for how early you can get it. It should be closer to Druddigon, and there's no way it should be below 'no stabs besides Return and Fly' Unfezant.
This is more aggressive than the comment on the VoD! This guy is here to defend Cincinno's honor, come back when you have Skill Link!
@@ImportedCheese See you in BW2 then? Then again, that dex is a bit more crowded so it loses out in comparison. I did enjoy the stream though, even if I did see it after the fact.
@@ImportedCheese Technician is not that much worse than Skill Link. 3 hits with Technician results in 112.5 base power, compared to 125 with Skill Link, 4 and 5 hits is always stronger. Technician also has the benefit of being able to use other coverage moves such as Wake-Up Slap.
Man, chat hates seeing Patrat being successful
I don't know why I was fighting for Patrat so hard, it's not like he ever helped me much. The drop to C wasn't even by a landslide, it was 56%!
well it is kind of trash. the only reason its ""useful"" is because of its gimmicks. even then, its stats are ass even after it evolves, and its ugly as sin, like most gen 5 pokemon.
I said it in the stream and I'll say it again, I still do not get why of all trashmons, the vanillite line gets so much hate. Literally nothing else turner has produced has had that same level of hate either.
For me, it's annoying on another level to still, after like 10 years, see such a harmless design get driven into the ground for incredibly subjective reasons. This little ice cream mon was once used by genwunners as a shitty scapegoat to drag the entirety of gen 5 down and it doesn't really sit well with me that after gen 5 has had its turnaround and everyone agrees on it being a truly excellent entry to the franchise, it's still getting dunked on.
My mans it's been a decade, find a new target.
Loved the history lessons tho
That mans an ice cream. Ill eat him
It aint a Pokemon. Trash design and trash from a gameplay point of view both in game and in PVP. It fails to justify its own existance.
@@RinaShinomiyaVal
That mons a pile sludge I'll wipe it up
That mons a bunch of eggs I'll smash them
That mon is literally just a ball I'll kick it
That mon is a set of keys I'll jingle it
That mon is a lit candle I'll blow it out (etc.)
@@RinaShinomiyaVal and for pvp, you dont seem to know it has a legitimate niche in RU with snow warning, and arguably does it better than aurorus. It hits hard as hell with stab blizzard, it had a serious niche in a tier with pokemon like milotic, machamp, cloyster, venusaur and friggin FLYGON.
You dont have to beat necrozma dusk mane to have a legit use somewhere.
@@matthewzakrzewski1797 Yeah, you notice people hate on the Gen 5 Objectmon yet nobody talks $#!+ on Candle.
I'll admit that SOME of the hate was an excuse to go on a Japanese history tangent.
...I still don't like Vanillite though, and it gets hate a decade later because it's still the worst we've seen, it deserves it.
Nice try, James Turner!
why is route 4 just the most stacked route ever, also ground type competition is insane sense there are so many good ground types. also megainium deserves the more recognition due to it being the best grass type in the gen 2 games.
Being the best grass type in Gen 2 games is like being the best fire type in Sinnoh, there's no competition
What about bellosum
Check out lostlorn forest in bw2. Trying to complete the dex and the sheer amount of shaking grass mons are killing me
Being the best of the bad is not a good thing
JustICE for Vanillite's line, it is super cute, but what can you expect from someone who ranks Snivy so low 🤷♂️
Nice try, James Turner!
Vanilluxe and Vanillite are easily top quintile designs for Unova imo. The hatred has never made sense.
@@egosumv3112 it's like these people have never played Gen 1.
Also in lore it’s an icicle just covered by snow. Also the Casteliacone (in universe ice cream) was based off of Vanilluxe so no one would have ice cream if not for Vanillite’s line!
what’s that? you don’t care? oh, alright… ☹️
@@egosumv3112 Vanilluxe is stupid, I hate Vanilluxe, awful pokemon. The other two are cute though, especially Vanillite.
I’ve used a simipour and simisage and they both preformed really well. People really hate the monkeys for no reason
Kalos has the largest regional Dex iirc so the gen 6 dex will be fun
10 hour livestream and 5 hour tier list?!
Please do Kalos!
Gotta disagree with the Cubchoo. My team didn't have a good answer for the dragon gym, which uses dragon tail for everything. You just need powerful supereffective hits - speed doesn't matter. And you can catch Cubchoo relatively near when it levels up. It's only got one job but it does it well.
Regarding your question about Adaptability, I have my own take on the name.
I remember a while back looking into Adaptability and noticed that GameFreak tends to use it for Pokémon who canonically are invasive species. See stuff like Crawdaunt, Basculin or Gumshoos for an example, they are all Pokémon who the dex describes as an invasive species.
With that in mind I think the Adaptability in the name is less about "They change to match their surrounding better" but more along the lines of "The Pokémon with this ability are very good at doing their thing, so much so that they can thrive and dominate even in ambients they are not native to without the need to change their gameplan"
It's definitely still a very stange ability name though and I'm not even sure if this interpretation makes sense
I think Adaptability is the first Gen 4 Ability we'll be discussing this weekend, so we'll see...
Ugh, as much as I like the design, using the Snivy line in my White game was SO frustrating I ended up using Oshawott instead for White 2. A defensive status user isn't fun for going through the main game, and I remember it having some irritating holes in its move pool preventing it from being a great stall pokemon in competitive.
Generally really liked the edit. Live stream format is fun and the chat interaction is mostly fine, but 5 hours was just a bit too much for me. I will note that some of the re-explanations could probably be cut out to help the pacing.
I'm very much looking forward to BW2 tier-list, I'm predicting Lucario's gonna be at least A if not S since you get Riolu mad early.
I really enjoyed bein part of this tier list. The chat rants, the basculin deffenders, me finding out that James Turner making Vanilluxe is not a misconception and an actual thing (I have been deceived all this years), just overall bantering with Cheese, it was extremely fun. I think this also lead to one of the most "perfected" lists, since there won't be any people saying "OMG YOU FORGOT YOU CAN CATCH THAT POKÉMON IN A SINGLE PATCH OF GRASS IN THAT SIDE AREA" and such, which is cool.
I hope that next lists are also done in this format! Even if I can't partake in them, I know chat will do a great job not just levelling the opinions to a more cohesive ground, but also make the process of creating the tier list funnier for Cheese! Which I think is a win-win!
Yeah, a lot of the extra length is from bickering that would have been happening in the comments afterwards, this way we get a more accurate list!
...But a consequence is that uh, it's long...
@@ImportedCheese it ends up being a thing of personal opinion. I remember back in the day watching SilverLeagueNetworks videos (ignoring the recent news of what has transpired of that individual to this point I'm making) which were notoriously huge, but full of good arguments. A fair share of people in the comments used to complain about the lenght, but I personally enjoyed them.
Leavanny allowed me to have the easiest time I’ve ever had with Cynthia. She starts with Spiritomb and I realized that it goes for will-o-wisp and then just spams double team. I healed my burn, and set up with sword dance right in that Spiritomb’s face. One shot her entire team with leaf blade and return. Also swept Caitlyn, Shauntal and Grimsley in the rematch with this strat😝
I did the same thing, minus double team.
@@ahmadbassam2898 you used a Leavanny too?
@@tommyvercetti7854 yes
@@ahmadbassam2898 wow, what are the chances of someone else using the same strategy with the same Pokémon!
Really cool how Pokemon Blaze Black made Serperior into a Grass Dragon type. I was so hyped when I saw Dragon Breath on Servine.
Not sure why it isn't in the base game
@@ImportedCheese Because a Dragon type starter would be "too powerful" because it would not be weak to the other starter it's supposed to be weak to. What's that? Mega Charizard X and Mega Sceptile got to be Dragon-type starters? (Well technically only Sceptile since you can't start with Charmander in any games that have megas). Empoleon got to lose its Grass weakness? Gamefreak, learn how to balance your game!
@@tdawgmaster1729you can choose Charmander as a second starter in X/Y, that's how you get Charizard X?
@@tdawgmaster1729
1. A mega evolution isnt the same as an permanent final evolution
2. Empoleons type was made with torterras and infernapes secondary types in mind, both of which beat steel types like it.
"Marshal, the Unovan Bruno"
DAMN, the shade!
He's definitely better than Bruno, although he needs to lay off the Blue Raspberry flavored snacks.
@@ImportedCheese that’s a mouth guard meaning it’s protecting his teeth
@@DigitalRag3Xno he's clearly addicted to blue dye
If there is 1 pkmn that nearly made me quit, it's Eiscue. Boy looks so out of place and low effort, especially when his ice breaks.
However, gen 8's pkmn designs are overall fantastic imo. And secretly, I love Eiscue because of its strength as a belly drum sweep in low tiers XD.
I think on average James Turner's pokemon are fine, but the misses are uh...uh....oof.
Mine was Stonjourner... that thing is an abomination
@@MsIngno I didn't think it was that bad. Prolly cause my brain deleted it from existence XD.
@@MsIngno Was it a James Turner special tho?!
@@ImportedCheese I’m shocked to report that it is not a James Turner original…
Basculin should be A tier, and I'm tired of pretending it's not. Look at it like a sort of off-brand Sawk. It's a bit faster, and actually hits a bit harder with waterfall/aqua tail thanks to adaptability. While both have limited levelup move pools, Sawk's fighting type is definitely better, and it has a better tm movepool. Sawk's defenses are slightly better too, although Basculin's water type gives it a slight advantage, I'd argue.
Overall Basculin isn't super exciting, but I think you underestimate how hard and fast it hits out of the gate, with no investment.
Adaptability aqua tail is the same base power as STAB close combat and you get it at 28, and aqua jet is nice priority
I used basculin and it is indeed quite good but the big problem in black and white though is just that it’s obtained way to late (after 6th badge) so that renders it enough to not get A tier imo (I know you can have a traded one in driftveil but it doesn’t have adaptability)
I also think it should've been A but only because of the trade in driftveil which is always adamant
The Basculin lobby is here in the comments, too!
I don't like ordinary fish!
...Maybe if the trade Basculin had adaptability.
I lost a Carracosta to a Darmanitan's Flare Blitz once. Double-resist couldn't stop Darmanitan.
Fun fact: Because of its 10% burn chance, Flare Blitz gets the 1.3x Sheer Force power boost (in addition to the 1.5x STAB boost). It's essentially a delete button on Darmanitan.
@@athath2010 It's an absolute monster, easily one of my favourite Unova Pokemon, but absolutely terrifying to encounter on someone else's team in a Nuzlocke.
Fortunately, there's normally only one or two NPC trainers that have one, but there are quite a few that have Darumaka, and Darumaka is no slouch either.
GET HIT WITH ALLA DAT
Fun fact: beheeyem learns steel wing because steel wing is hm 51. It's an alien and area 51.
Uh is that true? I think it's just an error lol
@@ImportedCheese it might have originally been an error, but then again it also learns it in the newer games, so who's to say
@@ImportedCheese so I did a little digging and it appears that while game freak never made any official reasons as to why it learns steel wing, the most likely reason is that it was indeed an error, tm 51 in gen 5 is ally switch (a move that makes sense for it to learn) but In gen 6 it was changed to steel wing, and beeheyem had it's data transferred over from gen 5 without double checking.
"Creatively bankrupt" regarding bad gen 5 designs is a bit of a misnomer. I would need to research this to be sure but I'm pretty sure every Pokemon design was done by a different person on team and then later adapted by Sugumori. They really wanted the gen to feel fresh and this was one of those strides in doing so.
I don't like the ice cream pokemon.
@@ImportedCheese I mean it isn't like they "ran out of ideas", they just made different people with varying talent make the pokemon.
@@ImportedCheese It's an icicle covered in snow, not an actual ice cream.
Gen 5 still feels so recent to me, lol. I started with Hoenn so I have all the nostalgia for ruby, but even without that there are some mons in gen 5 that I absolutely love.
We're almost done with the DaiPa kids wave, next is DAE GEN 5 UNDERATED?! REMAKES WHEN?
Decided to play BW for its entirety this weekend and since I had already gone through the first half of the game I decided to randomise it to discover new mons earlier. Had Deino as my starter and was so excited to have a dragon dark starter. Googled its name once I didn’t see it evolve at level 35. Cried. 10/10 would do again.
Think of the POWER waiting for you though
Gen 5 have excellent balance. In any Pokemon game, Cover Legendaries solo the endgame with ease... that doesn't happen in Gen 5. You actually need a balanced team to finish the game.
It's still uh...pretty easy
I think the Mienfoo line is a solid A tier in X/Y. Sure, it's overshadowed by Mega Lucario and takes a lot of time to evolve but Mienfoo can dish out a lot of damage with Jump Kick and Drain Punch until it evolves and it has some solid abilities. Mienshao basically ties with Houndoom as my overall favorite Pokemon and Mienshao was the true star of both my Unova and Kalos teams.
Not too mention it can learn stone edge Mienfoo definitely kicks ass
Musharna also gets Recover I believe, which makes its low speed not as big a deal. If you're getting hit too much, you've got free recovery there.
As an aside, yeah, there's just way too much chat interaction in this one. We're forty minutes in and just now getting to pinwheel forest. I think an ideal time to get through the first forest is around twenty to thirty minutes if not sooner.
It's fully intended that Elgyem gets Steel Wing, because Steel Wing is tm51.
It does not get recover only moonlight
the chat stuff was frontloaded for this
@@cadencenavigator958 Maybe, but in BW/B2W2 TM 51 was Ally Switch, a much more logical move for an alien-based psychic pokemon; they clearly forgot to update the moveset after changing the actual move TM 51 teaches.
With how high level a lot of these gen 5 evos are it almost makes me think Gen 5 was originally going to have a really high level curve like XY but decided to go against it at the last minute
It's weird looking at Gen 5 gym leader levels and then XY to see Wulfric's ace being almost level 60
Evolution levels would still be ass but at least it wouldn't feel like you were carrying deadweight for a really long time
Justice for Rufflet
Eviolite though... that seems to be its greatest purpose.
Pawniard with that little pink rock has a higher Defense than its evolution.
I'm gonna have to disagree on Tepig. It's slow. It's nothing too special. And Darumaka basically renders it obsolete.
Granted, Drumaka is 'above' Tepig. But I don't think Tepig can be in the same tier as Darumaka; since why use Tepig when you have Darumaka?
Also; I'd actually argue low S for Petilil. It's movepool is trash but Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance is all it needs, and it's fast and hard-hitting enough to just blast stuff without st-up; set-up just lets it outright sweep things like Ghetsis. And if you're playing the version it's not native in, you get an in-game trade with a 31 IV Sp.Atk Modest one.
Yes, another person pushing for S-Tier Lilligant! Perhaps Cheese will see the light in the BW2 tier list?? Or perhaps he will remain MIRED IN HIS OWN IGNORANCE AND ANTI-GRASS BIAS??
Lenora kinda lives, like, half a kilometer from a bunch of Fighting types, so I totally agree. If other Fighting types weren't available, though, Tepig would be the best option, because Lenora is really difficult.
@@richarddavis2530 When will the shilling end?! Probably never!
Ummmmm Flame Charge??? Which he learns around lv 15 or 16 you get too attack and get a speed boost in the same turn
shout out to patrat for being the lowest base stat total of any unova pokemon, and shout out to watchog for being the lowest base stat total of any fully evolved unova pokemon.
normal moment
genwunner absolutely malding over the smiling ice cream, you love to see it
I don't
My only complaint about Gen 5 is the starters. It makes no sense that the starters are based off royalty of other countries (serperior = French, Emboar = Chinese Emperor, samurott = samurai). If anything the gen 3 starters fit better then they do
I...don't think they are? Emboar is a companion of sun wukong (infernape ripoff!!) and samurai are pretty far from royalty, they're more like hired goons
I like Vanillite Line.
That's illegal
Regarding team variety, I’ve often wondered if the intention was to encourage the player to fill out the Pokédex as they go, trading out Pokémon after each big challenge. This is evidenced by how N builds new teams from the local Pokémon each time you battle.
Maybe! The game being harder in general encourages you to at least experiment instead of just starter stomping like usual
@@ImportedCheese Exactly. It also explains some of the strangely high evolution levels. They evolve later because you should be in the zone of that level curve at that part of the game. From a designer perspective, I can see that they might have wanted to make the time period you are “experiencing” a Pokémon line feel about the same at each part of the game. That said, I’m a big fan of trading over eggs for repeat play throughs, so these high level evolutions often make that idea null for certain mons. Recently, they did start fixing this issue. In the Pokémon Sword DLC, you can get a Braviary in the 20’s, making it viable for the main story.
Unless I'm forgetting soemthing, can't you actually only get Basculin and Frillish (And basically every other fish) after you get surf? You know...AFTER you probably have a water type? And like, the 6th badge? Fishing isn't until postgame, either. Somehow...
I guess you can trade for a Basculin at gym 5 but even that's pretty late to be getting it IMO. I'd put it at low C.
Watchog is great for shiny hunting due to illuminate, Mean look, and super fang, but otherwise it’s not very exceptional
Hypnosis too! Hypnosis and Super Fang make it great for catching better Pokemon.
I love your editing it’s really funny and engaging without changing the video too much
“The best thing you can do with Emolga is volt switch to a better Pokemon” - burn heals needed STAT.
At least Emolga did something in the Karen Challenge!!
Sammurott is actually one of the coolest designs of any Pokémon. The shells acting as sheathed swords is awesome, it’s helmet is awesome, it’s facial hair is awesome, and it’s still quadrupedal like an animal should be. Bipedal Pokémon are overrated anyway and too many become bipedal that shouldn’t be. Sammurott was ahead of it’s time.
Nah it definitely should be bipedal
I played a B/W playthrough last year. It was 2nd time playing Gen V with my first time being when the game came out. On my first playthrough I remember I picked Snivy and hated it but loved the design. This time around I chose Tepig and called him Baconator and I kid you not I randomly put scald on it just because I could with infinite TMs and not having any other good picks for a 4th slot.
Snivy is so sad
Chat is dumb, this is gen 5 with infinite TMs and gen 5 exp
A) you can't out level things the best strategy is not "have monke crush everything"
B) this means a team of six is more important than ever since they will catach up quick, availability = more important than ever
C) infinite TMs and exp scaling mean mons can be replaced at practically zero cost, so even more support for quick running a team of six
D) availability always counted
E) all the crazy power mons evolve at levels you won't reach till post game thanks to exp curve
Vanillite is so cute and is a great concept. I love the idea that it’s an icicle with powdered snow on top, and can look different depending on how much it comes down. Its evolutions, however, do not advance the original concept at all and damage the line and leave the bad taste in the mouths of fans that they do (pun intended).
I....agree?! That's as kind as I'll be to vanillite!
b&w has such super high level evolutions for no reason. Maybe that was done cause they have a rather big postgame? I dont quite know, never got around to playing the postgame myself. But so many pokemon are borderline useless until like lvl 40-50, which is just.. weird. It's not like the game is especially high level.
It's not that bad in B/W itself, but when you move pokemon to other gens with different level curves, uh...
Defeating the champion is a post game event and it’s in the high 60s if I recall or even higher
Rufflet really thinks it’s a pseudo legendary evolving in its mid-50s bruh calm down, you’re just a little bird I’m not gonna train you lmaoo
The best gen. I love the videos btw. Laugh so much at your commentary. Hope you continue the move tier lists at some point. Watched the entire gen 1 moves stream and laughed my ass off.
1:39:45 To quote Oversimplified, "Your gonna trade with us and your gonna like it."
let's coercing!
Holy shit i need a folder of every gigachad pokemon you have
You can find them all in the Discord, link in the description
Pog, Darmanitan is equally fighting type as fire-fighting starter
Cheese: Serperior is the worst one in Gen 5. Also, the EXP system is weird and it’s hard to grind
Me, with Tappy the Serperior, the first Pokémon I ever got to level 100: I refuse to believe these lies
No grinding in my games!!!!!!!
You better believe it
Honestly ferrothorn is underrated. It gets curse and gyro ball. Amazing for nuzlockes and surprisingly good for playthroughs. A relaxed Ferrothorn was the star of my White 2 challenge mode nuzlocke. Low C is too harsh for it. I’d say high C or low B. Definitely the best defensive Pokémon for a playthrough.
I agree it's the best defensive pokemon, but for the criteria I use defense is pretty much useless, even in Gen 5
@@ImportedCheese Ferrothorn has a unique blend of offense and defense thanks to iron barbs doing chip damage as well as getting curse to power up its power whips and gyro ball.
I caught one in my first run, used it alongside Jellicent. Those two pokemon together have such great defensive coverage to fall back on when you lose your offensive mons to something unexpected.
Hey, I love your ingame tier lists ! There is only one placement I disagree with : the Purrloin line is trash and belongs to D tier. It's worse than any Pokémon you ranked D except the "Est archetypes" victory road encounters. Actually it's so bad that having it on your team is a liability 99% of the time. It's stuck with Scratch as its only attacking move until lv14, and even then it only gets Pursuit as a stab until lv28 (Assurance) then 37 (Night slash). This mon will never 1hko, or 2hko anything : against wild pokemon, you're looking at 3hkos at best. It's just free set up fodder for work up/coil/quiver dances, which is really dangerous and makes the game harder than it should be.
But that's not all, because Liepard is also really frail. This pokemon dies to any crit or super effective move, even trash coverage. It's the ultimate "it goes first... and then what" pokemon : it dies, that's what lol
In b2w2, Liepard is somewhat better (still terrible but better) because of the snarl TM and Dark Pulse move tutor. But in bw it's easily the worst fully evolved pokemon of the dex. It's a Johto tier pokemon stuck in a region full of min maxed beasts. The Patrat line is 100x better because at least you're looking at short term hypnosis utility + a 70BP earlygame stab. All Liepard brings to the table is maybe a dark type to sweep Shauntal if you stock on X attacks, and even that is a stretch. Bottom D tier for sure, even availability can't save something this bad.
............yeah it probably should be D lol
@@ImportedCheese I did a soul link where I had to use Liepard, and really wanted to find some use for this mon. I couldn't. I think the most useful it's been was when it used Thunder Wave to catch wild pokemon. But even underleveled wild pokemon could kill it with a crit lol
A very fun tier list as always. I understand I’m 2 years late to this vid and that it probably doesn’t matter because the selection of S tiers is so good, but I think the encounter level is probably the cause of some dissonance in the chat for a lot of these later game Pokemon, specifically Pawniard (level 40ish) and Litwick (level 30ish). I’m sure you did take this into consideration, but the premium tier list edit kind of makes it sound like you will never get the evolved forms of these Pokemon, even though you only really have to get 11-12 levels with them, which is pretty easy to do late in the game. Yes, you miss out on the EVs that your earlier Pokemon will have accumulated a ton of by that point, but your evolved form is so good that it probably doesn’t matter. You would probably have to grind a little for a Bisharp and I wouldn’t honestly recommend using it over any of the S tiers, but I think you could pretty reasonably get a Chandelure before the Elite 4 and I would absolutely recommend having that for the Elite 4.
Surely Gen 5 pokemon in later games will also be found at high levels!!!
@@ImportedCheese if they retroactively halved all of the evo levels…Volcarona, Mienshao, Mandibuzz, Braviary, and Hydreigon would STILL be too high
That Vanilluxe portion was unbearable.
You can skip it with the timestamps!
Also, unbearable because Vanilluxe is such an uninspired and boring design!
The natural environment of a Chad is the desert.
Sandile, Scrafty, Darumaka, Sigilith... Maractus.
The gangs all here.
Maractus....imagine being worse than cacturne....
I will fight you. Vanillite line is one of my favorites. I used it in my playthrough and it was strong as hell.
Come at me bro, I'm not scared of an ice type
8:50 Snivy's hidden ability was never available until 6th gen. He'll be fine
Samurott: A final evolution starter Pokémon on all 4's that shouldn't be on all 4's.
Incineroar: A final evolution starter Pokémon not on all 4's that should have been on all 4's.
We'll see about the new grass starter's fate....
My guess for why evo levels are so high in this game is to give you a reason to do the post game that and the fact that you dont actually fight the champion until you rematch the E4
Uh it might be? Justice for Rufflet
No offence but the 'creatively bankrupt' ranting was pretty cringy ngl; do you feel that strongly about the Diglet or Magnemite lines?
Cool tier list apart from that, though.
I'll never forgive Vanillite
I wanna make that argument that samurott is better than emboar because samurott gets Megahorn (move relearner), Night Slash (Breeding with liepard), aerial ace (TM), revenge and swords dance, it's coverage is unparalled, and even on the special side it has ice beam(TM), grass knot(TM) and AIR SLASH(Breeding with Swoobat), making it really good against Shaunteal, caitilin, marshal and grimsley, plus alder if you're lucky, it's the best counter against the elite 4, both before and after fighting team plasma
Bug moves suck, no way that your ingame starter can get breeding moves, aerial ace has 60bp, revenge has -6 priority and always goes second
I loved the Patrat revolt. Wish I was apart of it.
Anyway I agree with you except I think the monkey’s should be lower except for Simipour
Simisear might have to go down...the movepool is indeed poop...
@@ImportedCheese I had oshawott when I played gen 5 and if you like Incinerate and Lick then you love Simisear
As someone who didnt have time to join in your live stream due to work, chores, and different time zone, i appreciate your edit of the livestream. Thank you cheeseman. Great video as always. As much as i love grass starters, snivy and chiko kinda baaad. But snivy is much better than chiko.
Thank you for watching the edit, I hope you enjoyed!
...I think the remaining Gen 6/7/8 grass starters will all be S, hooray!
@@ImportedCheese thank you for the great contents! Rooting for my boy rowlet!
Caught most of this live, great list!
I hope you enjoy the PREMIUM edit!
also u overrate blitzle i tried using it in my playthrough n it just gets killed by everything its not good enough to ohko early on and gets killed too fast
Vanilluxe is a great mon fun to use and neat design of an icicle trying to look like ice cream to be more likeable I don't understand the idea that "it's just an ice cream cone" means it's bad honedge is just a sword, Geodude is a rock with arms, Voltorb is a ball with eyes, ect but no for some reason an ice cream cone is the exception
"great mon" "fun to use" "neat design" will the lies never end?
@@ImportedCheese he a funny little ice cream cone and I enjoy blasting dragons to kingdom come you said it's stats weren't very good but I would not be able to tell from my playthrough because he was a beast in the late game
I have so much love for you Cheese and the fact that you care about all of your subscribers on both RUclips and Twitch. I’ve never enjoyed using Twitch to ingest content and I love RUclips and the idea of being able to watch what feels like a “show” and I appreciate you still try to make proper videos. A lot of people give up on RUclips and just focus on streaming. Which I get is profitable. I just wanted to say thank you for making sure we RUclips shills get to enjoy your stuff as well. :)
Eyyy thank you! I don't do twitch at all tho LOL
It's all on RUclips!
I think it's hilarious that heatmor was given a signature move in gen 7 when it wasn't even available in the games and then it lost the signature move privileges in gen 8
Heatmor...more like heatless, oof. Awful pokemon
Sand rush may not be amazing in game but stoutland helped get sand rush banned in lower competitive ranks
Also the monkeys are based on the 3 wise monkeys but their evolutions are also based on Japanese counter culture such as simisage being based off of Bōsōzoku, simisage being based off of yankii, and simipour being based off of Kogyaru
Sand Rush is insane in the Gen 5 weather wars but uh, no competitive in this list
I do think Patrat and Purrloin should be D. Even though theyre available early, what are you going to use them for? Lillipup and the starters are just way better, and at least the monkeys have something to do with their elemental types, and help out against the first gym. Purrloin and Watchog have literally nothing to do that lillipup cant, besides maybe eating a psybeam or confusion from a munna in the case of purrloin, but even then lillipup gets bite and can destroy it, especially when its a wild pokemon, not a trainer pokemon. Maybe purrloin can stay where it is, as 88 attack with stab dark isnt the worst, and it will probably go first, but watchog without a useful stab type and not a single stat that breaks 90 absolutely deserves D tier. It does seem to be on par with the other regional rats, though it doesnt even have their utility as an HMployee, as it doesnt learn surf. All in all, Watchog is bad. It deserves to be lower, preferably D.
The chat comment about loving Cheese but him being the embodiment of every genwunner/long time pokemon fan stereotype is spot on lol. I understand that you have to pick some kind of criteria to use for ranking things, but everything about this is hilarious. At least it's mostly intended humor ;P Thanks for the video.
It's gen WINNER ok !!!
The Vannilite line being low C tier is really strange. STAB Ice Beam at level 36 (right after evolving into Vannilish), it does well vs two late game gyms + Ghetsis’ Hydreigon and it’s encountered not too late in the game unlike the other two Ice types which are absolutely worse due to poorer offensive stats and being far too late. The only flaws it really has is that it evolves late and it’s good attack stat is completely useless. It’s the one placement I completely disagree with, it’s bottom of B tier not bottom of C tier
Weak when you get it, absurd evolution levels (standard for Unova tho), pure type, and that type is ice. Seems bad
Audino is a brilliant nuzlocke Pokémon, saved my run with its bulk and coverage, this was White 2, it did far better than the altaria that I caught which turned out to be quite useless
Budget Chansey life
33:28
Cheese's inner New Yorker emerges for a moment
Krookodile has amazing stats and two great abilities and dark ground is a pretty good typing for gen 5, but idk, actually using it on a playthrough team feels kinda weak because sandile and krokorok have pretty bad stats and evolve kinda late
I think you only really use krookodiles stats for the eighth gym and elite four
Oh also one thing about magic guard sigilyph. While it's true that in game playthroughs dont worry about indirect damage from stuff like entry hazards or toxic as much it's still really good for fighting on sandstorm or hail routes and, much more importantly, for negating the recoil damage from life orb.
Your attack is boosted by 30% basically for free.
@@NotAFakeName1 can you even get the life orb in BW?
@@mightguy3578 bw1? Probably, not 100% sure
I know I used a life orb reuniclus in bw2 tho
Missed the stream, thanks for the edit
Thanks for watching the edit! So brief, not even 3 hours!
Musharna should get access to zoroarks ability illusion. It's part of its whole shtick
I wish illusion existed before team preview
I caught a shuppet with illusion on a randomizer and it makes me want it on a few ghost types
"Quadripedal Samurott" is the exact phrase to describe why the whole "we don't need any more starter final evos on two legs" movement is dumb. Samurott on two legs could've been so much more awesome than what we got
I think people are more upset the bipedal pokemon are so...uh...furry
Great editing ! 🔥
Contrary Serperior is not only fun but also pretty good in competitive even if it has like 3 attacks (including hidden power)... In gens 6 and 7, because it's hidden ability wasn't released until gen 6 lol
If only it were accessible at the start...
Genwunner talking about sawk and throh being just real words but mispelt
*seel, muk, koffing* exists
I think those are dumb, too
lmao fair enough
@@yessir916 you'd cringe more if you saw the gen 1 Japanese names
unfair genwhinner comparison
hitmontop and hitmonlee>>>>>
Wow username checks out@@yessir916
I like Vanilluxe. I think it’s cute and it’s not like it’s literally ice cream. It’s floating snow on icicles. And I think it’s kinda cool that it gave the people of Pokémon the idea for ice cream.
Your videos make me like to watch, enjoy my eyes in see pokemon tier list you RUclips!
Very Thanks
I am uh...glad your eyes enjoy
The high evolutions really killed me in this game. It’s almost like they were encouraging you to use a wider variety of Pokémon by locking some of the better ones behind level walls. I remember when I would play this I would basically dump half my party near the end and just lucky egg audino train a bunch of late game power houses (Chandalure, Electross, Haxourous, Bisharp)
it's all America's fault in the 19th century that vanilluxe exists, you're a genius!
See, I'm peeling back the veil of lies cast by James Turner!
Bro. I wanted Liepard to work so bad when I was playing B&W a year or two ago because I liked the way it looked... It's just so bad early. Doesn't learn anything useable. it's basically scratch and pursuit until level 30 at which point you get assurance or you can get thief tm iirc. Coming off 88 atk/spark it just feels terrible, especially when you have, like, stoutland and exadrill wrecking everything.
At least there's always D I V E C A T S
Patrat being in B makes some sense in yeah, it's got crap stats, but it gets good moves early like Hypnosis, Crunch, and Headbutt