I like the fan theory that Peter Cushing is an older version of the Metacrisis Doctor who built his own TARDIS using the bit of TARDIS-coral given to him by Ten in the deleted scene.
My personal head canon for the Valeyard's genesis is the Dream Lord - literally a manifestation of the 11th Doctor's darker side which he may have inadvertently let loose when he flicked the "pollen" out the TARDIS door while in space during the episode.
Would also fit as between the twelfth and final incarnations of that cycle, perhaps being concieved of as the time lord victorious and only given form by the dream speck. That would mean the valeyard is in fact two incarnations, one being the dream lord.
One of my favorite theories for this states it's with the meta crisis doctor. The doctor sends Rose and the metacrisis version of 10 to the alternate universe and gives them a tardis seed. Essentially. This version of the doctor doesn't have regeneration energy, and he is more aggressive. So the theory states he caused Rose's death and himself to get deathly injured. Because he was a second body made when there would be one more regeneration. He was actually able to regenerate one more time, but it was incomplete. Thus turning him into the valyard and giving him a motivation to hate the doctor. Not only to gain more regeneration energy but as revenge for being the person who caused the death of rose.
@@littleredruri thank you! I like it too because with The War Doctor being number 9 in the cycle that would make the 10th doctor(Tennant) actually the 11th. So the energy for the 12th doctor, because smith was the final form in the cycle, went into MetaCrisis. Fitting him perfectly in between the 12th and final regeneration criteria.
I think the first doctor had a subconscious memory of his previous incarnations, which may have partially been what motivated him to steal a Tardis, and he had an unconscious preference for disguising it as a police box before the chameleon circuits broke.
I vaguely recall reading in a book or magazine sanctioned by the BBC that Romana II took her form based on a person she had met previously "Because she felt like it." Which says to me that regeneration under controlled conditions allows the timelord to control the process, at least to a degree. But the majority of The Doctors' regenerations are forced by externalities, either Timelord intervention or a near-death experience, so it being a much more random process in those cases may be understandable, but at other times he may have enough in-the-instance presence-of-mind to control it.
Great video, great return to form. The Fugitive Doctor is absolutely Season 6b. She recognized the sonic screwdriver once it was named , as it has evolved so much from the primitive initial version she has , as to be unrecognizable until named. The 7th Timeless Child grows up to be The First Other , we've known the final 8 incarnations of The Other since The Brain of Morbius. Techteun is Rassilon. I think she secretly birthed The Timeless Child herself experimenting with that untempered schism type thing she found , according to Timelord Victorious she had blood samples from The 9th Doctor and Rose Tyler to experiment with alongside this "gateway" she discovered. If you take lungbarrow as canon it explains everything. The Doctor hasn't had unlimited regenerations since either being reloombed into existence as The First Doctor ... Or since after being retired from The Division and having the memories of the entire regeneration that worked for the division erased via chameleon arch simultaneously rewriting her DNA into being a regular two hearted 12 regeneration limited full-blooded Gallifreyan Timelord , triggering her now first of 12 regenerations guided by the Timelords into the best face to hide all their secrets , the previous face , The Second Second Doctor , The Second Doctor of Season 6b infamy ..... ( Or they just reversed the forced regeneration of 2 into fugitive that they had initiated , as is now clearly a possibility)... Either way , no more unlimited regenerations... It all works.... This is the same way river song came into being , if you think about it ... We have only Techteun's word as to what happened before she returned to Gallifrey with a child after exploring the universe alone and finding a "timespace portal"
I definitely agree that The Fugitive Doctor is Season 6B. One of the main give aways is she has the blue police box TARDIS exterior, which only settles after An Unearthly Child. She has to be Season 6B. The Second Doctor said that he's 450 years old, then The Fourth Doctor said that he's 750 years old. That leaves 300 years between The Second, Third, and Fourth Doctor. However, the entire televised adventures of The Second and Third Doctors have them paired with human companions that didn't age that much, so it can't be that long. The Second Doctor's entire run is with Jamie, and The Third Doctor is with UNIT, and later on with Jo and Sarah. So the only way they can really get up to 300 years is if they had unseen adventures with Season 6B, and the Time Lords/Division returned the regeneration cycles used while under their service, then wipe their memories into the fob watch. The Timeless Children and the Morbius Doctors are probably The Other, which are loom reincarnation. I think Tecteun is meant to be the third founder along with Rassilon and Omega. I don't think Tecteun is Rassilon.
@@SirSX3 more than that , the specific outer shell police box that The Fugitive Doctor has is explicitly that of only the 2nd and 3rd Doctors.The Second Second Doctor continued working for the Timelords Celestial Intervention Agency in Season 6b more publicly for political reasons, to keep carrying out the sentence from The War Ganes and to help keep the secrets hidden from The Division , after the memory of that regeneration is erased The Doctor still works for the Timelords just no longer the beyond top secret covert opps Division of the CIA. We literally see the young Fugitive Doctor being recruited into The Division in The Timeless Children right after the regeneration at the end of The War Games. Rassilon has to be Techteun. Rassilon has always been obsessed with immortality and has been the one credited with bringing regeneration to the Timelord race. Rassilon and Techteun being one and the same is the only thing that makes sense. We see the 7th Timeless Child grow up to be The 1st Other in The Timeless Children. We also see Techteun become Rassilon in the Timeless Children , it's all in that hallway scene. We've known the final 8 faces of The Other since The Brain of Morbius. Lungbarrow confirms The Other committed loomicide and a millennia later was reloombed into existence into the boy that would grow up to be The First Doctor . I'm sorry that was way more random train of thought consciousness and probably repetitive lol
What if the Valeyard was a regeneration after Tennant but because of how time is in constant flux we're not following that timeline anymore and he's averted that fate.
You can't expect everyone to know all of Big Finish, too. Because it's only available in English. At least SOME of Classic Who has already been dubbed in other languages, I've personally watched the 7th Doctor's run in German.
11:14 we know the time lords said they restricted the regen limit of time lords ro 13, when they wiped the pre Hartnell doctors memories and made them into a kid, I assumed they put this 13 limit onto the doctor too. So Matt Smith really was the end possible end of a cycle before the time lords gave them more
We all knew deep inside from the classic show that he was older than he made out and that he probably had more incarnations he didn't talk about or remember. And what about all those future incarnations. That's a lot of Doctors
It hasn’t been clear since the 70s with the Morbius doctors. People could have their own head-canons to explain away those if they want but one thing it definitely wasn’t after that point was absolutely clear that Hartnell was the first regeneration.
It was a mind battle with Morbius. They were Morbius’s faces. But the ambiguity was accidental and exploited by Chibnall. The writer of the Morbius story said they didn’t even really think about it to the extent that Morbius and the Doctor had their mind in the machine at the same time and really showing that Morbius had more experience and knowledge.
A Thought - Although Peter Cushing played the Docor in the two cinematics, In my mind he was playing the same incarnation of the character as William Hartnoll. This is born out by the fact that the second movie starring Cushing is essentially the same story as a Dalek episode retold for the cinema. That episode is of course, Dalek Invasion of Earth. So Peter cushing, although he played the part for cinema, is actually playing the role as the William Hartnoll incarnation.
Can we just agree that there only (for now) 17 Main Doctors 1st to 15th Doctors plus Warand The Curator The Timeless Children count as much as the Doctor being half human
I don't even count War and Fugitive as 'main' Doctors. The main Doctors are the ones who played the lead, who have eras and stories that we can watch on TV. So 15 from Hartnell to Gatwa. Then there's probably dozens of others, from the Timeless Children to the Morbius Doctors, to the Fugitive Doctor, to the War Doctor and the Curator. Then there's others who might or might not be the Doctor like the Valeyard and Merlin. Then there's alternate universe Doctors like the Unbound Doctors, the Cushing Doctor and the Shalka Doctors.
1. The Morbius Doctors were always The Doctor, nothing to do with Chibnall, whatever fans wanted to re dress or believe. Hinchcliffe and Holmes have confirmed it many times. It’s v clear from the scene where Morbius pushed The Doctor backwards to the beginning and v nearly kills him, well does, it’s down to the sisterhood who bring him back to life. Not only was it intentionally pre Hartnell incarnations, but Holmes wanted to make The Doctor not have the McGuffin of regenerating out of potential danger and threats to his life. He solidified that with the regeneration limit in Deadly Assassin. Tom was the final Doctor. 2. I don’t understand the issue with limitless regenerations as established by the timeless child. That’s how it was prior to Assassin in theory and what Russell commented on in Sarah Jane. Moff had other ideas. The whole timeless child makes more mystery for The Doctor than it takes as far as I can see. 3. You missed out Jenny. I know as per the title of the story, how she’s called ‘The Doctor’s daughter’ but in reality she is infact a clone of The Doctor, therefore another version of The Doctor, possibly more so than some of the other suggestions. I don’t agree quite with your theory, being The Doctor is more than just the title. What’s in a name? If it a legit clone, other incarnation, it’s The Doctor whatever they call themselves. We don’t know when he took up the name either, so it’s possible many of them still used it. 4. You missed Brendan too. Not one of the timeless kids on your clip, but the first Doctor?
The Morbius Doctors aren't the Doctor. If you watch the episode, it is said that Morbius is a timelord so they would be of him unless he has NEVER regenerated. We find out that the Delgado Master is in his last incarnation which means he regenerated 12 times before we met him so why couldn't Morbius have regenerated several times.
I liked the scene at the end of Flux, where the Doctor loses the watch (containing all her memories of earlier incarnations), deep into the TARDIS. Like her, I choose to forget them too! I felt like throwing an egg at my tv screen after the Timeless Child was broadcast. I could happily draw a line at the end of the 12th Doctor's era and pretend he started his regeneration at Durdle Door. Then the show finished forever.
Personally I actually saw the Forced Regeneration and resolution as a Regeneration and a Re-regeneration. They say that it’s not something that can be reversed, and we know they can revisit old faces. I also just really like the idea that they blazed through 3 regenerations in one, very in character for 13 to get so close to making it out alive and getting blasted by the master. Only to accept it, in contrast to 10.
I can see where you're going with the "they can revisit old faces" line since the 14th Doctor has the same face as the 10th Doctor, so with that in mind I would be surprised if other time lords other than the Doctor can regenerate into a new healthy body with the same face as one of their previous lives. 😅😅😅😅😅😅
I take issue with the 4 David Tennant's. I think the 'he regenerated but kept the same face' was more of a joke line said by Matt Smith's Dr Who. Whereas in the episode Journey's End DT's Dr Who says he didn't regenerate. That regeneration was used to create the Meta Crisis Doctor. You could agure that Donna post Meta Crisis counts as another version of 'the Doctor' of course but I won't go there... 😅
The Master Doctor is a bit more tricky. It's very easy to accept him as another version of the Doctor. It's whether you accept degeneration as a thing, and it being different to regenerating back in to an old body. What is the difference?? Is a question not answered in the P**** of the Doctor, and I doubt will ever be touched upon tbh. So could easily say their are 2 incarnations of the 13th Dr Who...
Matt said that even though David didn’t change in journey’s end and mainly used the regeneration energy to heal from being shot by a dalek he still wasted a regeneration to do so it counts in the cycle is what Matt was saying the joke in Matt’s statement was saying he had vanity issues as to why he didn’t change
@@kevin10001 Yeah but, there still aren't 2 versions of DT one after the other. He didn't regenerate. That regeneration was used to create the Meta Crisis Doc and the DoctorDonna, which wouldn't have been possible if he'd 'regenerated and kept the same face'. He wasted a regeneration sure, but he didn't regenerate. That's my point. If the 5th Dr Who had wasted his regenerations liked he'd planned in Mawdryn Undead. I doubt we'd have said he'd regenerated but kept the same face... He'd have just used his regenerations. Like DT's 10th Doctor used one of his regenerations to create a Meta-Crisis.
He wasn’t canon back then 😂 the show still existed then… Peter cushings movies were just retellings of William hartnell stories… so TECHNICALLY some of those events did happen within canon (though some details about the events were changed in the movies) William hartnells doctor was the doctor who experienced those events… not cushings.
@@MrMetallixI like to pretend that Ian and Barbara wrote novels based off their adventures and the two Cushing movies were cheap adaptations of those novels
Maybe I misunderstand the word "canon". What I mean is, that on Blue Peter back in the day when they spoke about the actors that had portrayed The Doctor, Cushing was named along side of Hartnell and Troughton without mentioning that the movies got it wrong regarding his species or if he invented or stole the TARDIS.
The status of The Master/Doctor and forced regenerations is probably related to the number of Romanas in Destiny of the Daleks. Did her self-forced regenerations make Lala Ward both Romana II and Romana VI?
Now we have to deal with the headache of trying to figure out why Richard E. Grant was one of the Doctor’s faces in Rouge throwing into question if he is a Pre-Hartnell Doctor, The Shalka Doctor(somehow), or The Tenth Doctor from The Curse of Fatal Death(there’s no way he is but I know someone will bring it up if I don’t).
I wish the Master was the Timeless child. It makes more sense to me he'd be mad cause they stripped it from him than the Doctor. The regeneration limit had already been solved so it wasn't really needed for the doctor. But for motivation for the Master it would have made more sense. We also wouldn't have the whole pre hartnell mess.
That would've made more sense! It was said that Delgado's Master was the 13th and final incarnation and began to decay into Pratt and Beevers. Then, he began to possess different bodies such as Ainley and Roberts. Then, I believe the Time Lords gifted him another regeneration cycle during the Time War. Even before the Time War, the Master was shown to be seemingly immortal and incredibly formidable. It would've made a lot more sense if the Timeless Child was the Master
Thank you for putting together this list. I like it, it gives me food for thought. I normally don’t post anything anywhere, but thought I chime in here. I’ve been watching, listening, and reading Doctor Who since 1980. Personally, I love the timeless child story because it makes the Doctor extra special and emphasizes the meaning of “Who” because even the Doctor doesn’t truly know who s/he is. Also it answers the question of why are we following this character, what makes this character special enough for us to follow his/her lives. Now we know because s/he is very unique.
Thanks for the video! It's a great overview of the different incarnations of the Doctor! We hope the Fugitive Doctor could return in a future episode and clarify all the plot holes.
i hope that Jo Martin can eventually return as the Doctor, using the "revisiting old faces" excuse because i LOVED her in the few episodes she was in with 13. Her presence SCREAMED the Doctor and I thought she was phenomenal.
Head canon for the Valeyard is that he's the final Doctor and his different origins is the universe / timeline fracturing as there shouldn't be an end to infinity (infinity being the Doctor and his endless regenerations). It works with Valeyard's desire to steal the 6th regeneration energy as like in the canon he has no more regeneration and could probably be molded to work with the rest of his history. Him not remembering certain events can be explain away with his long life span (possibly being beyond trillions of years across trillions of regenerations, trillions of failures). Edit; Decided to take a look at the wiki and there are more "ambiguous" Doctor incarnation than I thought lol. Cool to see the different non canon Doctors too
Matthew, when Ruth was converted into 1 and reverted into a child, the doctor became a regular time lord, including the 12 regeneration limit. As much as I hate chibnall's abuse of canon, it doesn't break the time of the doctor
Well, since the timeless child is supposed to have unlimited regenerations and the eleventh doctor ran out of regenerations, leading to the time lords granting him a new cycle, makes the whole concept of the timeless child contradictory
@@gamingkill3r604 Lol as the original comment says, Ruth regenerated into the first doctor becoming a *regular time lord, including the 12 regeneration limit*
@@8LiterallyJustTheNumber8 i know that. Im simply stating what the episode told us. They made it clear the timeless child can regenerate infinitely. Conveniently limiting the timeless child’s regenerations to 12 and having the time lords revert the doctor back into a child is just lazy writing on chibnalls part. It was already established way back in series 3 that the time lords got their regenerations from the time vortex, as children they look into the untempered skism, thus granting regenerations. It seems chibnall forgot this, or he simply didn’t do his research
The TARDIS was originally not a police box, though - in the first episode in 1963, it was established that its design was caused by a disguise circuit malfunction, which has been corroborated in the series consistently since. That malfunction occurred in the trip between November 1963 and 100,000 BC at the end of the first episode. Because of this, it means that the Fugitive Doctor has to have existed either (1) between the First Doctor and the Second Doctor, who introduced the Sonic Screwdriver, or (2) is The Doctor at some point in their post-First Doctor history with some or all of their memories erased. I personally subscribe to the idea that Ruth was the actual exile regeneration of the Second Doctor with her memories erased, and that it ties into the Season 6B theory (where there was a more substantial amount of time between the Second Doctor's apparent exile and the Third Doctor's appearance, and that for a certain period the Doctor worked directly for the Time Lords.) (To be fair, I also have it as headcanon that The Master is actually the Timeless Child, and that he used Time Lord technology to manipulate memories (something that they're demonstrated to be able to do, as in the aforementioned scene in The War Games) in an effort to make The Doctor understand his pain. This correlates with the Master's constant ability to revive themself despite apparent death, and plays into The Master's demonstrated skill as a master hypnotist.)
Concerning The Master-Doctor, my friend and I had quite a lengthy conversation on the legitimacy of it. Forced regeneration obviously counts towards incarnations and it was The Doctor's own regenerative energy that was used. So, the regeneration counts. It may be The Master's consciousness in The Doctor's body, but I don't think anyone can argue that that wasn't The Doctor's body. They hadn't swapped positions. Rasputin was still the same. So, factually speaking, The Doctor regenerated into Sacha Dhawan. Normally speaking, I think the "Second Thirteenth" incarnation doesn't count since the regenerative energy was taken from Cyber Masters and not her own reserve, and I also believe the time lord machine being used did force a true "degeneration" rather than a "regeneration that makes you look like your previous incarnation" so 13 remained as one incarnation instead of two. IMO This is a true incarnation of The Doctor even if the brain was hijacked by The Master's consciousness, it was still The Doctor's body and I hope that Big Finish does something with it. I think I'd like to see this version go on adventures!
I haven't seen the episode, but I have seen some scenes. Would it be possible to say that the Thirteenth DID become the Master-Doctor, but then was just turned back into the 13th? Like a Degeneration of sorts?
@@olympicging1155 thats what happened. but the doctors mind and memories didnt regenerate with her into the masterdoctor, it was the master and his memories inside of her body during that incarnation while she was stuck at the edge of existence.
I will never get why the canonisation of brain of morbius doctor and the timeless child is a redcon that annoyed the fan more than the doctor traveling to his OWN timeline AFTER his death. I was personally more pissed and angry with name of the doctor than with timeless child
Back in the '80s, there was the idea in the producer's mind that The Doctor had been one of the founders of Gallifreyan civilization, known as The Other. (Who, now? Well, there was Rassilon, and Omega, and, you know... The Other). In this version, as illustrated in the novel Lungbarrow (written after the BBC cancelled the series, but before the rights were sold to Fox), there was a possibly rather long time in which The Other Doctor was disincarnate, his body stored in the Heir Looms before enough time had passed and he could be safely rewoven into being.
The Timeless Child story is going off the theory that The Doctor is The Other that helped created the time Lords. Plus Doctor Who canon is always changing, even back in the old series. I just like show and expect craziness.
The Doctor being a godlike being has been a theory for decades. It's all but spelled out that they were seen as equals as founders to Omega and Rassilon. I get not liking the story of the Timeless Child but it's always been clear that the Doctor was a deeply important person to the Time Lords.
If the "Hand" and the Meta - Crisis Doctor counts,then so does the Doctor - Donna (the submerged "Time Lord Mind" of the Doctor.He is the Yin to the Doctor - Donna's Yang) and Jenny ( the Doctor's daughter) and beings like "the Watcher" and Colin Baker's Curator too. There were also "mysterious, hermit type Time Lord (s) that hint that he/they were either hiding/retired variants of the Doctor. Then there are many variants of the Doctor in this Whoniverse and endless multi Whoniverses(in Movies,Comic Relief Spoofs, Fanfiction Books/Audiobooks,etc. A friend from Maine, USA 💕💕💕💕 👍👍👍👍👍
15:10... The war doctor, the currator, the Valeyard, the Rebel Doctor... just how many were there... As for interaction between them... For all I can say... I always thought that the doctor was actually half-human (something I understood from watching part of the series when "the doctor" was Tom Baker. But I have also thought that "the Master" was actually also the doctor... And every timelord alway/anytime could actually be the same being as any doctors ever have. Possible there have always only been a single timelord. Memories can and have been removed and possible rewriten, and for all we know today... the doctor, can just be a part (a shard) of the whole who is and always has been the timelord. (A single being)
So the whole thing about the Fugitive Doctor's TARDIS not making sense... it can easily be made to make sense. I don't necessarily want it to, because I hope they retcon the Timeless Child for many reasons, but in terms of canon, it works fine. The Fugitive Doctor worked for the Division for however long. During that time, she was provided with a Type 40 TARDIS. She found herself spending a lot of time on Earth, within a certain time period, and in the UK, so she usually had the chameleon circuit disguising it as a police call box. She put her memories into the pocket watch, buried the TARDIS, and then we met her during Jodi's run. After she was retired from the Division, her memories were wiped, and her TARDIS was taken to be decommissioned. It was, after all, very out of date. There were around a hundred TARDIS "types" that are canon from mentions on screen, books, audio, etc. So, the Fugitive Doctor is eventually force regenerated into a child, goes to the academy, grows up, becomes friends with the Master, flunks out or leaves, and then as an old man goes with Susan to steal a TARDIS from the decommissioning yard. And is drawn to (and pushed toward by Clara) a specific TARDIS, which is the one the Fugitive Doctor used to use. The chameleon circuit getting stuck is because that's the last form it remembered, and it's old and worn out. And the fact that the Doctor is so deeply bonded with his TARDIS, which I was under the impression is fairly unique, is then explained by it having known him for thousands of years, longer than even he was aware of.
Love it or hate it, now that bigeneration is canon, that could also be The Valeyard's origin, either a suppressed trauma of a doctor we've seen trying to rid themselves of their darker instincts or perhaps from a future doctor we haven't seen yet.
I think if the tenth doctor's regeneration back into himself counts as one, then jodie regenerating into the master and back into jodie definitely counts as two. Because it still cost the same amount of regeneration energy as if she just regenerated two times.
considering the fact the 14th doctor was like "what? what? what?" After the 13th doctor's regeneration I think with random regenerations I don't think you can choose. Note: In the night of the doctor they said that regeneration on khan doesn't have to be random, the dude could've gone to khan and picked his 4th life's face.
Fugitive Doctor needs to be placed between 2 and 3. Time Lords messed with her mind to get her to complete missions as punishment for interfering, then when the punishment is over, they're brought back, turned into 3 and send to Earth
Or, they turn Fugitive back into 2 via degeneration, meaning it leaves the Doctor with 11 regenerations left, wiped his mind of the Fugitive incarnation, and sent the Second Doctor out to do missions before exiling him and forced a regeneration. Season 6b was a thing before Chibnall came along :D
That really doesn't add up - the time lords already have been shown to have sent the second Doctor specifically on those missions. If they're already doing that, why also at some point force a regeneration? Plus in expanded media the Second Doctor eventually came to the realization that his memories were being screwed with. To me this is clear cut - we have a beginning, middle, and end of the Second Doctor's time working for the Time Lords. Truth is, there's no good place to slot Fugitive Doctor into, because it just doesn't add up.
She can’t be a 6b doctor because she didn’t recognize the sonic screwdriver which would’ve been introduced by that time cause it was introduced in the second doctor’s era even though it wasn’t used as much in the classic era as it has been in the revival era 6b only exists cause the show didn’t have an actor casted to replace Patrick when he regenerated so while they were auditioning for what would become jon pertwee regeneration the comics went off on their own and made up there own plot line wise and made up new stories that got referred to as season 6b
Perhaps her regeneration had her mind wiped of the sonic screwdriver (for reasons) or maybe she didn't recognize it because of its completely different design to the second doctor's.
My Q is about the Valeyard, if the Doctor's regen is biological, wouldn't the Valeyard inherently have the unlimited regens? And I now find myself wondering about Jenny. As a duplicate of The Doctor, is she physically what the Doctor would've originally looked like before any regeneration?
16:26 I have a theory. We know that when the time lord used the force regeneration they could choose the new face. I’m figure it’s that aspect that takes the power (otherwise why not just shoot her). I think he uses himself as a template that knocks him out so yes he would be a doctor.
the Master Doctor does count, it's just not sequential, so there's an additional number in there, but whoever comes after isn't the 21st or 22nd etc, rather they're whatever the total number is up to and then the total tally is like 22 (+1) where the (+1) is the Master Doctor always being tacked on as an additional generation but one that was quashed
Easiest solution for the Tardis issue, The Fugitive Doctor returned to Gallifrey to get her Tardis fixed as it kept glitching into a Police Box. It was still being fixed they had managed to do a temporary fix when it got stolen again.
11:30 your basically saying that after the 15th doctor he becomes the valley also I’m calling it that because I can’t spell lol. He’s not after 15th otherwise that would be confirmed when 15th regenerates and it obviously won’t so no and plus the valley isn’t a incarnation of the doctor so idk where u got that from
A few counterpoints:- 1. The Timeless Child, while being the source of the Time Lords' regenerative abilities, isn't necessarily a godlike being. It's certainly true that, after working for Division, the Child is reverted to infancy and grows up to become the boy we see in Listen. 2. The Doctor doesn't have unlimited regenerations. It's specifically stated that the capacity is limited to 12, which would include the Doctor at some point, presumably during graduation from the Academy; the gifting of the cycle being the final stage of the ceremony. Therefore, the Doctor's regeneration abilty is capped accordingly. 3. As you say, we see the First Doctor steal a TARDIS in The Name of the Doctor. Now, it could be this is the same TARDIS he used in his previous life, but there's no evidence the Timeless Child ever used a TARDIS. 4. The majority of onscreen evidence suggests that the Fugitive Doctor is indeed set within the enigmatic era of Season 6B, set some point after The Two Doctors. While it's true the Sonic Screwdriver was introduced in the Second Doctor's era, it wasn't used that often (4 times in 3 stories). As such, I'd say she can be forgiven for forgetting about it at that moment, after all, she'd only just got her memory back and the Sonic would be the last thing on her mind. I'll talk about the evidence of Season 6B here: firstly, the fight scene in Gloucester Cathedral. The way it was shot is reminiscent of similar fight scenes in the Third Doctor era - e.g. The Curse of Peladon and The Time Warrior. Given that neither the First or Second Doctors displayed such skills, it would seem to be the case that 3's abilty is possibly the result of subconscious muscle memory of fighting techniques learned while in his previous hidden incarnation. Secondly, we have the TARDIS itself. As you pointed out, the Police Box guise was established to have been stuck in An Unearthly Child. As such, it can only be from a post-Hartnell era. Equally, the interior appears to be a cross between the Second and Third Doctors' interiors, subtly suggesting the placement of the Fugitive Doctor herself. There's also the percentage of power on Ruth's phone when she gets the text from Lee: 68%. It may be nothing, but 68 and 6B look remarkably similar at first glance. Is this another subtle clue? Also, I will also mention the fact the Third Doctor appears to be wearing the Second Doctor's clothes when he falls out of the TARDIS in Spearhead from Space. All I can suggest is that the Time Lords - or Division, more likely - forced to Doctor to change clothes before wiping her memory of her entire existence. It works for me, anyway. 5. I do think the Valeyard is the result of the Time Lord Victorious; a whisp of dark energy released during the Ten's regeneration into Eleven, made flesh by the Time Lords to threaten the existence of the Sixth Doctor. A sort of ontological paradox in many ways. 6. Talking of the Tenth Doctor, we're told that his 'first' regeneration counts by the Doctor himself. While it's true we was on the final life of his first regeneration cycle, he erroneously believed the cliffhanger resolution of The Stolen Earth/Journey's End counted, when in fact it was because he had no memory at all of his Fugitive incarnation. In short, the Doctor was wrong in assertion regarding vanity issues. 7. The Metacrisis Doctor, while not an incarnation, will later become the Cushing Doctor. This is only my headcanon, but I think it's worth sharing: after a particularly catastrophic event, the Doctor, Rose and Tony (Rose's brother) escape via a malfunctioning Dimension Cannon, which leads them to 1920s London, in the same universe they're already in. Rose and Tony are relatively unscathed, but the Doctor has no memory of who he is, beyond the fact he's a Doctor of some kind. He chooses to go by the name Doctor Who, and eventually he and Rose start a family. These children later grow up to have children of their own - Barbara and Susan. By the point of the films, Rose was killed during the Suez Crisis, and Tony has long had a family of his own, with his daughter Louise visiting her forgetful old uncle on a regular basis. 8. We'll have to wait and see where Tennant's "14th" Doctor fits in, but I suspect there's a lot more to than he's the next in sequence. Perhaps he's an older version of the Tenth Doctor; a what-if-Ten-didn't-regenerate scenario, perhaps. 9. Interestingly, Dr Moon in Silence of the Library/Forest of the Dead was intended to be the 45th Doctor; perhaps the Curator regenerates into him, thereby allowing him to make the ultimate sacrifice? Sorry this is so long, but I hope I've offered easy answers to some of your more vexing questions.
@@NobodyNobody310 In an dual-interview with Doctor Who Magazine a few years ago, Steven Moffat and Russell T Davies discussed the fact that Moffst had originally posited that Dr Moon was the 45th incarnation of the Doctor. It depends on where one stands on authorial intent, as it was only ever in the stage directions of drafts of the script. However, a lot of fans at the time, myself included, thought this was a nice little titbit of possible lore. It certainly feels very Doctorish, and could be seen as a definitive end for the character. Obviously, we're a long way off 45 yet, so until such time, I think it's plausible. Equally obviously, once the show gets to that point, the 45th Doctor wouldn't be played by Colin Salmon anyway, so maybe it's a moot point. Anyway, I hope that goes someway to explaining it
There’s really only one Doctor,the one you watched as a child. I Just corresponded with some Whovians in the comments section on a video about Doctor Who companions. To say some Whovians are toxic would be an understatement😳 All I said was that I thought Sarah Jane Smith was the most influential companion. You’d have thought I was calling some people’s grannies street walkers!!! The abuse I got was stunning! I thought the Doctor Who fan base were some of the nicest people around. It seems not!!! Peace and happiness from Dublin Ireland 💚🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷
My take @20:00 - back then the Time Lords hadn't erased those DIVISION Morbius Doctors... it was when The 6th Doctor went into the Matrix that they were deleted... they were blocked, obscured, obfuscated back then... but after the 6th unravelled the Ravolox heist, the TimeLords decided to completely erase what they had hidden when the Doctor ran away from the Division !!
(Here’s some secret Doctors that are real that not everyone knows about) Dr moon is a secret incarnation from the episodes forest of the dead and silence in the library dream lord is a secret incarnation of the doctor as well Jackson lakes doctor is technically but he’s not actually a doctor so I Wouldn’t put it as that Mobius Doctors of classic era of dr who And btw the 13th doctors master regenerated into the doctor isn’t a incarnation of the doctor
The timeless child is just like that there was a War Doctor that no-one knew about, not all of them are numbered and so not all of them have to be titled for it to be a regeneration
i posted this somewhere else but i'll post it here. i do my start where we know "The Doctor' title counts. from this line of reasoning and in order this is wat i got 1. Jo Martin (Fugitive doctor) [1st doctor] if this is where she started calling herself doctor 2. William Hartnell (1st doctor) [2nd] 3. Patrick Trouten (2nd doctor) [3rd] 4. Jon Pertwee (3rd doctor) [4th] 5. Tom Baker (4th doctor) [5th] 6. Peter Davison (5th doctor) [6th] 7. Colin Baked (6th doctor) [7th] 8. Slyvester Mccoy (7th doctor) [8th] 9. Paul Mcgan (8th doctor) [9th] 10. John Hurt (The war doctor) [10th] called himself the doctor again at the end 11. Christopher Eccelston (9th doctor) [11th] 12. David Tennant (10th doctor) [12th] 13. David Tennant (10th doctor) [13th] regenerated but was able to kept same body and face 14. Matt Smith (11th doctor) [14th] 15. Peter Calpaldi (12th doctor) [15th] 16. Jodie Whittaker (13th doctor) [16th] 17. Sacha Dhawan (14th doctor) [17th] Forced regeneration became the master doctor 18. Jodie Whittaker (13th doctor) [18th] said it was a degeneration but i think it still used up a regeneration 19. David Tennant (14th doctor offically by the bbc) [19th] for me this is wat he have currently in the main show. every other body during the timeless child is not counted nor is the morbius doctors since they where just shown as faces and not called previous "doctors" and possible future doctors is not counted either like the curator.
Personally, I still think the Fugitive Doctor slots between Two and Three. The biggest reason for that is because the Second Doctor was forced on missions for the Time Lords before they regenerated into Three - who's to say there isn't another incarnation tucked away between them, much like the War Doctor between Eight and Nine?
I dig that version of the theme y'all use in the intro. I wouldn't count The Meta Crisis one who lives with Rose as he is technically a seperate entity. The Master-Doctor also degenerated so I wouldn't consider that one. I was never sure if the Valeyard is like the same entity we know as The Doctor or some creation of a seperate entity so not sure about him. As for the rest, as far as we know, are the person we know as The Doctor. As for the order of them? Who bloody knows? Speaking of degeneration tho, I wonder if the Master-Doctor shenanigans are partly why they re-regenerated into Tennant? Either way I hope they manage to give a fun/interesting in-universe story for it. Also, an issue I have with The Timeless Child stuff is it kinda suggest that The Doctor is special because The Doctor is special. Where as before The Doctor seemed special because of what and who they chose to be.
Also I guess this implies that a time stream as shown in "name of the doctor" can only keep track of what a time lord remembers, which is why nothing pre Hartnell is shown
I like the idea that the Second Doctor was changed into the Fugitive Doctor, and was recruited by Division, had her own adventures, and eventually her memories were wiped before changing into the Third Doctor.
Here's a thought for you: what if the Master Doctor is the precursor to the rise of the Valeyard? I mean it could also be related to the Dream Doctor... Jenny absolutely counts, as well
I only count 15 plus the War Doctor and The Curator. The way I look at it the rest could be explained away by The Celestial Toymaker admittedly making a jigsaw out of The Doctor's history.
Technically you could count the Dream Lord, since the 11th Doctor said he was him, although there are theories out there that the Dream Lord could have been The Valleyard, which honestly I could believe. There is a few other Doctors though in alternate universes, as confirmed by Big Finish Audios (something I found out about a month or 2 ago at work), with one of them being called The Unbound Doctor. Loved the clip. Edit: In terms of how many Doctors I think there are: I had no idea of the ones from Morbius, but honestly I don't think I'd count them anyway because I just don't know what to make of them, same with the Master Doctor. I personally do count the Meta-Crisis Doctor, though I completely understand why others like yourself don't, and I do count The Valleyard and Dream Lord. I've not seen the Peter Cushing Doctor Who movies, but I could see myself counting him. I do also count the Unbound Doctor(s), but not knowing how many of them there are makes things a little confusing...If we do count that, it's probably 21+ Doctors?
At least with the memory wiping right before Hartnell, it's like starting a fresh. Even if this people pre Hartnell are technically the same physical person, they're not the doctor we know. The doctor we know never remembers being them and therefore isn't them, isn't shaped by their past. If you don't remember it, is it really you.
There's also another known incarnation of the curator, being played by Colin Baker. Also, there's the Unbound Doctors. Up until now, the whole premise of these were that they were alternative cannon, and not part of the main universe or timeline; however, there are rumours that one of the unbound Doctors (it may be the David Warner incarnation) in set to appear alongside main doctors in big finish'es 60th anniversary multi doctor story "once and future", thus potentially making, at least some, of the unbound Doctors canon aswell.
What I want to know is how did The Doctor know he used one up when he channelled it into his hand? He seems certain when he was telling Clara, rather than just not being sure that he had or hadn't.... that's always bugged me.
I always assumed that the Doctor "made up" the Morbius Doctors because he knew Morbius was significantly older/more powerful/better equipped to win the contest - it was a trick to keep Morbius distracted, nothing more. Also, where does the Watcher fit in? An interstitial form he may have been, but he was still autonomous (communicating with the Fourth Doctor, and piloting Nyssa to Logopolis in the TARDIS).
My count of Doctors is at 19 just counting the ones we see regeneration from one to another. start with the 1st Doctor William Hartnell as the 1st one, the 2nd Doctor the 2nd, the 3rd the 3rd, and so on, until we get to the War Doctor John Hurt who is 9th incarnation making the 9th Doctor the 10th Incarnation. next we have double David Tennant as the 10th Doctor being incarnation 11th and 12th, making Matt Smith the 13th incarnation of the Doctor. Pater Capaldi is straightforward as the 12th Doctor making him the 14th incarnation. the 13th Doctor Jodie Whittaker is the 15th incarnation and then you get the Master Sacha Dhawan as the 16th Incarnation of the Doctor and then back to Jodie make her also the 17th incarnation. David Tennant comes back as the 14th Doctor being the 18th incarnation, keep his title as the actor that's played the most incarnation of the Doctor. Making Ncuti Gatwa up and coming Doctor as the 15th Doctor but also the19th incarnation of the Time Lord we know as the Doctor.
If you count the metacrisis Doctor, you HAVE to count Jenny. Both were extrapolated from the Doctor's DNA, Jenny probably combined with other DNA (she's obviously not a clone), Donna donating her DNA to that of the Handy Spare Hand.....
You know as I was watching through some videos and the one line we got from Ncuti Gatwa in the latest trailers I think it's going to be some metaphysical... Thing and that 14 incarnation is Ncuti but through timey wimey Tennant is some like transitionary body, like a temporary regeneration? Idk
What do I consider a “Doctor”? A character that in confirmed to be somewhere in the 1-15 run of the Doctor, and have more than one appearance. Paul McGann was worked out but consistently seen in the line up. The War Doctor... ummm... sure. Should have been Eccleston but anyway, we know how that went, so... sure, War Doctor. Peter Cushing's Doctor is believed to be older version of the meta crisis Doctor by quite a few fans. I like and embrace this theory. I'm starting to believe more and more that we are looking at a collision of a multiverse of Doctors. We have the Hartnell to current story of about 15-ish Doctors, and the Chibnall timeline was one that, you got it, fell through a portal. I even think that the Doctor introduced in that episode might have gotten displaced since the events of her story. In short, I don't think her and Hartnell's timelines are exactly the same. Many believe the 4th Doctor projections were just other lives he created in his mind to fool Morbius. Old time theory. I could think of another theory, but knowing the craftiness of the 4th Doctor, I like this theory best. Often thought the Dreamlord and Valeyard were basically the same. Other fans have noted this. Sad that the noble Doctor has physical negative seepage that goes into the universe to cause havoc. Or... maybe the Valeyard and Dreamlord are the Doctor so aged and changed that the younger Doctors barely recognize the motives of the Doctor. For example, it would have been interesting if say, the War Doctor, who was hurt and darkened by the time war, was actually the Valeyard. And when the War Doctor (used as example) met with his younger self, his goal to stop the time war, and whatever the younger Doctor was doing were in conflict. See that is where the Valeyard would be interesting. That he is actually not evil, just totally different and alien to a younger Doctor's eyes. And the great Curator I believe is a later and retired regeneration of the Doctor.
Infinite amount of Doctors. We just haven’t seen their story yet. The timeless child and infinite regenerations is just so there is always a doctor out there to write about. Which I don’t mind tbh
A theory that I haven’t heard anyone talking about is that the Doctor and the Master are the same being… I believe this because we witnessed Missy(Master) Supposedly die and it was to be the last death. But the master came back for the timeless child. My theory goes that the Master was created as a result of the torture of the timeless child and it was the years of imprisonment by the “12th Doctor” That started the reformation of the Master to the Doctor. Thoughts?
finally i have a "difinitive" listing of carnations. i figured out based off the episode where they show past doctors in the memories of the doctor [forgive me i dont have the number off the bat] that we had to be at least 30 or 40th dr.who reincarnation.
I think that the whole Timeless Child Doctors AND The Valeyard Doctor are certainly inn question, as to cannon. Since when do we take The Master’s word for anything. The antagonist lies. These could just be his lies.
He won't and I doubt the BBC will let him even if he wanted to. It shouldn't have been written. Chibs is an idiot. There are no Doctors before Hartnell as far as I'm concerned. I'll always hate Chibs for this.
I actually stick with Lungbarrow myself as the Timeless child is controdicted so much even with Matt Smith regeneration 13, but there were 6 pre doctors in the form of the other. Really The timeless Child fits Rassillon or Omega or even the master, never make your main character immortal is a massive mistake as it removes all drama
In watching the episode, the timeless child as a whovian I think that is pure heresy As for the fugitive Dr., I think that she is possible but you also have to look at it from a completely different perspective, involving other dimensions and other timelines As for the 50th anniversary where we’re John Hurt play the doctor I would say that he was out of place As for Peter Capaldi playing the 12th doctor that does work for me, however in his original description that he’ll be like Tom Baker, that just did not happen. As for David Tennant return to play the 14th Dr. is perfect I think it’s possible that in doing so that could explain the future of Dr. Only time will tail
Honestly it would make more sense that she's a future Doctor than a past one; I like the character but as she's presented she's a major plot hole. Easiest way to patch up the plot hole is to stick her in the future somewhere. I suppose one other place she could be argued, and would even make sense that her TARDIS was a police box, is if she was in fact between 2 and 3, and just had her memory erased before she became 3, so that 3 would only remember being 1 and 2.
I like the fan theory that Peter Cushing is an older version of the Metacrisis Doctor who built his own TARDIS using the bit of TARDIS-coral given to him by Ten in the deleted scene.
My personal head canon for the Valeyard's genesis is the Dream Lord - literally a manifestation of the 11th Doctor's darker side which he may have inadvertently let loose when he flicked the "pollen" out the TARDIS door while in space during the episode.
Would also fit as between the twelfth and final incarnations of that cycle, perhaps being concieved of as the time lord victorious and only given form by the dream speck. That would mean the valeyard is in fact two incarnations, one being the dream lord.
One of my favorite theories for this states it's with the meta crisis doctor. The doctor sends Rose and the metacrisis version of 10 to the alternate universe and gives them a tardis seed. Essentially. This version of the doctor doesn't have regeneration energy, and he is more aggressive. So the theory states he caused Rose's death and himself to get deathly injured.
Because he was a second body made when there would be one more regeneration. He was actually able to regenerate one more time, but it was incomplete. Thus turning him into the valyard and giving him a motivation to hate the doctor. Not only to gain more regeneration energy but as revenge for being the person who caused the death of rose.
@@MrMythul that's actually a really great theory, i like that a lot
@@littleredruri thank you! I like it too because with The War Doctor being number 9 in the cycle that would make the 10th doctor(Tennant) actually the 11th. So the energy for the 12th doctor, because smith was the final form in the cycle, went into MetaCrisis. Fitting him perfectly in between the 12th and final regeneration criteria.
@@littleredrurior that he is a future incarnation of the valeyard
I think the first doctor had a subconscious memory of his previous incarnations, which may have partially been what motivated him to steal a Tardis, and he had an unconscious preference for disguising it as a police box before the chameleon circuits broke.
In the future, everyone will be the Doctor for 15 minutes. - The Warhol Doctor
I vaguely recall reading in a book or magazine sanctioned by the BBC that Romana II took her form based on a person she had met previously "Because she felt like it." Which says to me that regeneration under controlled conditions allows the timelord to control the process, at least to a degree. But the majority of The Doctors' regenerations are forced by externalities, either Timelord intervention or a near-death experience, so it being a much more random process in those cases may be understandable, but at other times he may have enough in-the-instance presence-of-mind to control it.
Great video, great return to form. The Fugitive Doctor is absolutely Season 6b. She recognized the sonic screwdriver once it was named , as it has evolved so much from the primitive initial version she has , as to be unrecognizable until named. The 7th Timeless Child grows up to be The First Other , we've known the final 8 incarnations of The Other since The Brain of Morbius. Techteun is Rassilon. I think she secretly birthed The Timeless Child herself experimenting with that untempered schism type thing she found , according to Timelord Victorious she had blood samples from The 9th Doctor and Rose Tyler to experiment with alongside this "gateway" she discovered. If you take lungbarrow as canon it explains everything. The Doctor hasn't had unlimited regenerations since either being reloombed into existence as The First Doctor ... Or since after being retired from The Division and having the memories of the entire regeneration that worked for the division erased via chameleon arch simultaneously rewriting her DNA into being a regular two hearted 12 regeneration limited full-blooded Gallifreyan Timelord , triggering her now first of 12 regenerations guided by the Timelords into the best face to hide all their secrets , the previous face , The Second Second Doctor , The Second Doctor of Season 6b infamy ..... ( Or they just reversed the forced regeneration of 2 into fugitive that they had initiated , as is now clearly a possibility)... Either way , no more unlimited regenerations... It all works.... This is the same way river song came into being , if you think about it ... We have only Techteun's word as to what happened before she returned to Gallifrey with a child after exploring the universe alone and finding a "timespace portal"
Well explained, thank you for that. 💯
Wow.
I definitely agree that The Fugitive Doctor is Season 6B.
One of the main give aways is she has the blue police box TARDIS exterior, which only settles after An Unearthly Child.
She has to be Season 6B.
The Second Doctor said that he's 450 years old, then The Fourth Doctor said that he's 750 years old.
That leaves 300 years between The Second, Third, and Fourth Doctor.
However, the entire televised adventures of The Second and Third Doctors have them paired with human companions that didn't age that much, so it can't be that long.
The Second Doctor's entire run is with Jamie, and The Third Doctor is with UNIT, and later on with Jo and Sarah.
So the only way they can really get up to 300 years is if they had unseen adventures with Season 6B, and the Time Lords/Division returned the regeneration cycles used while under their service, then wipe their memories into the fob watch.
The Timeless Children and the Morbius Doctors are probably The Other, which are loom reincarnation.
I think Tecteun is meant to be the third founder along with Rassilon and Omega. I don't think Tecteun is Rassilon.
@@SirSX3 more than that , the specific outer shell police box that The Fugitive Doctor has is explicitly that of only the 2nd and 3rd Doctors.The Second Second Doctor continued working for the Timelords Celestial Intervention Agency in Season 6b more publicly for political reasons, to keep carrying out the sentence from The War Ganes and to help keep the secrets hidden from The Division , after the memory of that regeneration is erased The Doctor still works for the Timelords just no longer the beyond top secret covert opps Division of the CIA. We literally see the young Fugitive Doctor being recruited into The Division in The Timeless Children right after the regeneration at the end of The War Games. Rassilon has to be Techteun. Rassilon has always been obsessed with immortality and has been the one credited with bringing regeneration to the Timelord race. Rassilon and Techteun being one and the same is the only thing that makes sense. We see the 7th Timeless Child grow up to be The 1st Other in The Timeless Children. We also see Techteun become Rassilon in the Timeless Children , it's all in that hallway scene. We've known the final 8 faces of The Other since The Brain of Morbius. Lungbarrow confirms The Other committed loomicide and a millennia later was reloombed into existence into the boy that would grow up to be The First Doctor . I'm sorry that was way more random train of thought consciousness and probably repetitive lol
I feel like if Meta-Crisis Doctor counts then so would Jenny, since they're both basically clones, so I think you're right not to count it.
What if the Valeyard was a regeneration after Tennant but because of how time is in constant flux we're not following that timeline anymore and he's averted that fate.
There is also the Merlin Doctor mentioned in the TV episode battlefield
there's actually 1 you missed, there's another curator played by Collin Baker in big finish
Totally agree I came here to make the same comment about the second curator
big finish ain't always canon
You can't expect everyone to know all of Big Finish, too. Because it's only available in English.
At least SOME of Classic Who has already been dubbed in other languages, I've personally watched the 7th Doctor's run in German.
11:14 we know the time lords said they restricted the regen limit of time lords ro 13, when they wiped the pre Hartnell doctors memories and made them into a kid, I assumed they put this 13 limit onto the doctor too. So Matt Smith really was the end possible end of a cycle before the time lords gave them more
We all knew deep inside from the classic show that he was older than he made out and that he probably had more incarnations he didn't talk about or remember. And what about all those future incarnations. That's a lot of Doctors
It hasn’t been clear since the 70s with the Morbius doctors. People could have their own head-canons to explain away those if they want but one thing it definitely wasn’t after that point was absolutely clear that Hartnell was the first regeneration.
It was a mind battle with Morbius. They were Morbius’s faces. But the ambiguity was accidental and exploited by Chibnall. The writer of the Morbius story said they didn’t even really think about it to the extent that Morbius and the Doctor had their mind in the machine at the same time and really showing that Morbius had more experience and knowledge.
A Thought - Although Peter Cushing played the Docor in the two cinematics, In my mind he was playing the same incarnation of the character as William Hartnoll. This is born out by the fact that the second movie starring Cushing is essentially the same story as a Dalek episode retold for the cinema. That episode is of course, Dalek Invasion of Earth. So Peter cushing, although he played the part for cinema, is actually playing the role as the William Hartnoll incarnation.
Can we just agree that there only (for now) 17 Main Doctors
1st to 15th Doctors plus Warand The Curator
The Timeless Children count as much as the Doctor being half human
No, there is 1-8, War, 9, 10, 10 again, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and the Curator
Anyone who resorts to "can we just agree" is doomed to faiure.
@Owen Shebbeare especially in a fandom like doctor who lol
I don't even count War and Fugitive as 'main' Doctors. The main Doctors are the ones who played the lead, who have eras and stories that we can watch on TV. So 15 from Hartnell to Gatwa.
Then there's probably dozens of others, from the Timeless Children to the Morbius Doctors, to the Fugitive Doctor, to the War Doctor and the Curator. Then there's others who might or might not be the Doctor like the Valeyard and Merlin. Then there's alternate universe Doctors like the Unbound Doctors, the Cushing Doctor and the Shalka Doctors.
Since The Doctor has unlimited regenerations now there are an infinite number of Doctors
Which is why I personally don't treat seasons with 13th Doctor and onwards as cannon
Which defeats the purpose of having specific numbering for the incarnations, doesn't it??
They’re not unlimited
1. The Morbius Doctors were always The Doctor, nothing to do with Chibnall, whatever fans wanted to re dress or believe. Hinchcliffe and Holmes have confirmed it many times. It’s v clear from the scene where Morbius pushed The Doctor backwards to the beginning and v nearly kills him, well does, it’s down to the sisterhood who bring him back to life. Not only was it intentionally pre Hartnell incarnations, but Holmes wanted to make The Doctor not have the McGuffin of regenerating out of potential danger and threats to his life. He solidified that with the regeneration limit in Deadly Assassin. Tom was the final Doctor.
2. I don’t understand the issue with limitless regenerations as established by the timeless child. That’s how it was prior to Assassin in theory and what Russell commented on in Sarah Jane. Moff had other ideas. The whole timeless child makes more mystery for The Doctor than it takes as far as I can see.
3. You missed out Jenny. I know as per the title of the story, how she’s called ‘The Doctor’s daughter’ but in reality she is infact a clone of The Doctor, therefore another version of The Doctor, possibly more so than some of the other suggestions. I don’t agree quite with your theory, being The Doctor is more than just the title. What’s in a name? If it a legit clone, other incarnation, it’s The Doctor whatever they call themselves. We don’t know when he took up the name either, so it’s possible many of them still used it.
4. You missed Brendan too. Not one of the timeless kids on your clip, but the first Doctor?
The Morbius Doctors aren't the Doctor. If you watch the episode, it is said that Morbius is a timelord so they would be of him unless he has NEVER regenerated. We find out that the Delgado Master is in his last incarnation which means he regenerated 12 times before we met him so why couldn't Morbius have regenerated several times.
Thank you for mentioning Brendan!
I liked the scene at the end of Flux, where the Doctor loses the watch (containing all her memories of earlier incarnations), deep into the TARDIS. Like her, I choose to forget them too! I felt like throwing an egg at my tv screen after the Timeless Child was broadcast. I could happily draw a line at the end of the 12th Doctor's era and pretend he started his regeneration at Durdle Door. Then the show finished forever.
Personally I actually saw the Forced Regeneration and resolution as a Regeneration and a Re-regeneration.
They say that it’s not something that can be reversed, and we know they can revisit old faces.
I also just really like the idea that they blazed through 3 regenerations in one, very in character for 13 to get so close to making it out alive and getting blasted by the master. Only to accept it, in contrast to 10.
I can see where you're going with the "they can revisit old faces" line since the 14th Doctor has the same face as the 10th Doctor, so with that in mind I would be surprised if other time lords other than the Doctor can regenerate into a new healthy body with the same face as one of their previous lives. 😅😅😅😅😅😅
I take issue with the 4 David Tennant's. I think the 'he regenerated but kept the same face' was more of a joke line said by Matt Smith's Dr Who. Whereas in the episode Journey's End DT's Dr Who says he didn't regenerate. That regeneration was used to create the Meta Crisis Doctor. You could agure that Donna post Meta Crisis counts as another version of 'the Doctor' of course but I won't go there... 😅
The Master Doctor is a bit more tricky. It's very easy to accept him as another version of the Doctor. It's whether you accept degeneration as a thing, and it being different to regenerating back in to an old body. What is the difference?? Is a question not answered in the P**** of the Doctor, and I doubt will ever be touched upon tbh. So could easily say their are 2 incarnations of the 13th Dr Who...
Matt said that even though David didn’t change in journey’s end and mainly used the regeneration energy to heal from being shot by a dalek he still wasted a regeneration to do so it counts in the cycle is what Matt was saying the joke in Matt’s statement was saying he had vanity issues as to why he didn’t change
@@kevin10001 Yeah but, there still aren't 2 versions of DT one after the other. He didn't regenerate. That regeneration was used to create the Meta Crisis Doc and the DoctorDonna, which wouldn't have been possible if he'd 'regenerated and kept the same face'. He wasted a regeneration sure, but he didn't regenerate. That's my point. If the 5th Dr Who had wasted his regenerations liked he'd planned in Mawdryn Undead. I doubt we'd have said he'd regenerated but kept the same face... He'd have just used his regenerations. Like DT's 10th Doctor used one of his regenerations to create a Meta-Crisis.
@@benjamindavis4974 Does that matter? It still happened.
Yes, I count Peter Cushing as he was officially canon BACK THEN. But I also count Richard E Grant from the animated story Scream of the Shalka.
He wasn’t canon back then 😂 the show still existed then… Peter cushings movies were just retellings of William hartnell stories… so TECHNICALLY some of those events did happen within canon (though some details about the events were changed in the movies) William hartnells doctor was the doctor who experienced those events… not cushings.
@@MrMetallixI like to pretend that Ian and Barbara wrote novels based off their adventures and the two Cushing movies were cheap adaptations of those novels
He was never official cannon, he wasn't even a time lord in that movie
Maybe I misunderstand the word "canon". What I mean is, that on Blue Peter back in the day when they spoke about the actors that had portrayed The Doctor, Cushing was named along side of Hartnell and Troughton without mentioning that the movies got it wrong regarding his species or if he invented or stole the TARDIS.
The status of The Master/Doctor and forced regenerations is probably related to the number of Romanas in Destiny of the Daleks. Did her self-forced regenerations make Lala Ward both Romana II and Romana VI?
Now we have to deal with the headache of trying to figure out why Richard E. Grant was one of the Doctor’s faces in Rouge throwing into question if he is a Pre-Hartnell Doctor, The Shalka Doctor(somehow), or The Tenth Doctor from The Curse of Fatal Death(there’s no way he is but I know someone will bring it up if I don’t).
I wish the Master was the Timeless child. It makes more sense to me he'd be mad cause they stripped it from him than the Doctor. The regeneration limit had already been solved so it wasn't really needed for the doctor. But for motivation for the Master it would have made more sense. We also wouldn't have the whole pre hartnell mess.
That would've made more sense! It was said that Delgado's Master was the 13th and final incarnation and began to decay into Pratt and Beevers. Then, he began to possess different bodies such as Ainley and Roberts. Then, I believe the Time Lords gifted him another regeneration cycle during the Time War. Even before the Time War, the Master was shown to be seemingly immortal and incredibly formidable. It would've made a lot more sense if the Timeless Child was the Master
If the tardis exists all across time it may have known looking like a police box would show the 13th what she needed to know to figure it out.
Thank you for putting together this list. I like it, it gives me food for thought. I normally don’t post anything anywhere, but thought I chime in here. I’ve been watching, listening, and reading Doctor Who since 1980. Personally, I love the timeless child story because it makes the Doctor extra special and emphasizes the meaning of “Who” because even the Doctor doesn’t truly know who s/he is. Also it answers the question of why are we following this character, what makes this character special enough for us to follow his/her lives. Now we know because s/he is very unique.
I 100% agree with your consideration
I had been thinking about this myself even before the power of the doctor.
Thanks for the video! It's a great overview of the different incarnations of the Doctor! We hope the Fugitive Doctor could return in a future episode and clarify all the plot holes.
i hope that Jo Martin can eventually return as the Doctor, using the "revisiting old faces" excuse because i LOVED her in the few episodes she was in with 13. Her presence SCREAMED the Doctor and I thought she was phenomenal.
She's getting an audio series as "The Fugitive Doctor"
@@CyberController- i saw that!! i am very excited for it
IMO she’s better than Whittaker
Love her doctor, maube after ncuti?
Head canon for the Valeyard is that he's the final Doctor and his different origins is the universe / timeline fracturing as there shouldn't be an end to infinity (infinity being the Doctor and his endless regenerations).
It works with Valeyard's desire to steal the 6th regeneration energy as like in the canon he has no more regeneration and could probably be molded to work with the rest of his history. Him not remembering certain events can be explain away with his long life span (possibly being beyond trillions of years across trillions of regenerations, trillions of failures).
Edit;
Decided to take a look at the wiki and there are more "ambiguous" Doctor incarnation than I thought lol. Cool to see the different non canon Doctors too
Matthew, when Ruth was converted into 1 and reverted into a child, the doctor became a regular time lord, including the 12 regeneration limit. As much as I hate chibnall's abuse of canon, it doesn't break the time of the doctor
Well, since the timeless child is supposed to have unlimited regenerations and the eleventh doctor ran out of regenerations, leading to the time lords granting him a new cycle, makes the whole concept of the timeless child contradictory
Well actually it does.
@@gamingkill3r604 Lol as the original comment says, Ruth regenerated into the first doctor becoming a *regular time lord, including the 12 regeneration limit*
@@8LiterallyJustTheNumber8 i know that. Im simply stating what the episode told us. They made it clear the timeless child can regenerate infinitely.
Conveniently limiting the timeless child’s regenerations to 12 and having the time lords revert the doctor back into a child is just lazy writing on chibnalls part.
It was already established way back in series 3 that the time lords got their regenerations from the time vortex, as children they look into the untempered skism, thus granting regenerations.
It seems chibnall forgot this, or he simply didn’t do his research
The TARDIS was originally not a police box, though - in the first episode in 1963, it was established that its design was caused by a disguise circuit malfunction, which has been corroborated in the series consistently since. That malfunction occurred in the trip between November 1963 and 100,000 BC at the end of the first episode.
Because of this, it means that the Fugitive Doctor has to have existed either (1) between the First Doctor and the Second Doctor, who introduced the Sonic Screwdriver, or (2) is The Doctor at some point in their post-First Doctor history with some or all of their memories erased. I personally subscribe to the idea that Ruth was the actual exile regeneration of the Second Doctor with her memories erased, and that it ties into the Season 6B theory (where there was a more substantial amount of time between the Second Doctor's apparent exile and the Third Doctor's appearance, and that for a certain period the Doctor worked directly for the Time Lords.)
(To be fair, I also have it as headcanon that The Master is actually the Timeless Child, and that he used Time Lord technology to manipulate memories (something that they're demonstrated to be able to do, as in the aforementioned scene in The War Games) in an effort to make The Doctor understand his pain. This correlates with the Master's constant ability to revive themself despite apparent death, and plays into The Master's demonstrated skill as a master hypnotist.)
Concerning The Master-Doctor, my friend and I had quite a lengthy conversation on the legitimacy of it.
Forced regeneration obviously counts towards incarnations and it was The Doctor's own regenerative energy that was used. So, the regeneration counts. It may be The Master's consciousness in The Doctor's body, but I don't think anyone can argue that that wasn't The Doctor's body. They hadn't swapped positions. Rasputin was still the same.
So, factually speaking, The Doctor regenerated into Sacha Dhawan.
Normally speaking, I think the "Second Thirteenth" incarnation doesn't count since the regenerative energy was taken from Cyber Masters and not her own reserve, and I also believe the time lord machine being used did force a true "degeneration" rather than a "regeneration that makes you look like your previous incarnation" so 13 remained as one incarnation instead of two.
IMO This is a true incarnation of The Doctor even if the brain was hijacked by The Master's consciousness, it was still The Doctor's body and I hope that Big Finish does something with it. I think I'd like to see this version go on adventures!
I haven't seen the episode, but I have seen some scenes. Would it be possible to say that the Thirteenth DID become the Master-Doctor, but then was just turned back into the 13th? Like a Degeneration of sorts?
@@olympicging1155 thats what happened. but the doctors mind and memories didnt regenerate with her into the masterdoctor, it was the master and his memories inside of her body during that incarnation while she was stuck at the edge of existence.
@@YoyoMann Alright, thanks for clarifying that for me.
I will never get why the canonisation of brain of morbius doctor and the timeless child is a redcon that annoyed the fan more than the doctor traveling to his OWN timeline AFTER his death. I was personally more pissed and angry with name of the doctor than with timeless child
I had a combo 37 combo on the game I was playing as soon as u said 37.
Back in the '80s, there was the idea in the producer's mind that The Doctor had been one of the founders of Gallifreyan civilization, known as The Other. (Who, now? Well, there was Rassilon, and Omega, and, you know... The Other). In this version, as illustrated in the novel Lungbarrow (written after the BBC cancelled the series, but before the rights were sold to Fox), there was a possibly rather long time in which The Other Doctor was disincarnate, his body stored in the Heir Looms before enough time had passed and he could be safely rewoven into being.
The Timeless Child story is going off the theory that The Doctor is The Other that helped created the time Lords. Plus Doctor Who canon is always changing, even back in the old series. I just like show and expect craziness.
The Doctor being a godlike being has been a theory for decades. It's all but spelled out that they were seen as equals as founders to Omega and Rassilon. I get not liking the story of the Timeless Child but it's always been clear that the Doctor was a deeply important person to the Time Lords.
If the "Hand" and the Meta - Crisis Doctor counts,then so does the Doctor - Donna (the submerged "Time Lord Mind" of the Doctor.He is the Yin to the Doctor - Donna's Yang) and Jenny ( the Doctor's daughter) and beings like "the Watcher" and Colin Baker's Curator too. There were also "mysterious, hermit type Time Lord (s) that hint that he/they were either hiding/retired variants of the Doctor. Then there are many variants of the Doctor in this Whoniverse and endless multi Whoniverses(in Movies,Comic Relief Spoofs, Fanfiction Books/Audiobooks,etc. A friend from Maine, USA 💕💕💕💕 👍👍👍👍👍
Please please PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do a video like this but for the master!
15:10... The war doctor, the currator, the Valeyard, the Rebel Doctor... just how many were there... As for interaction between them... For all I can say... I always thought that the doctor was actually half-human (something I understood from watching part of the series when "the doctor" was Tom Baker. But I have also thought that "the Master" was actually also the doctor... And every timelord alway/anytime could actually be the same being as any doctors ever have. Possible there have always only been a single timelord. Memories can and have been removed and possible rewriten, and for all we know today... the doctor, can just be a part (a shard) of the whole who is and always has been the timelord. (A single being)
So the whole thing about the Fugitive Doctor's TARDIS not making sense... it can easily be made to make sense. I don't necessarily want it to, because I hope they retcon the Timeless Child for many reasons, but in terms of canon, it works fine.
The Fugitive Doctor worked for the Division for however long. During that time, she was provided with a Type 40 TARDIS. She found herself spending a lot of time on Earth, within a certain time period, and in the UK, so she usually had the chameleon circuit disguising it as a police call box. She put her memories into the pocket watch, buried the TARDIS, and then we met her during Jodi's run.
After she was retired from the Division, her memories were wiped, and her TARDIS was taken to be decommissioned. It was, after all, very out of date. There were around a hundred TARDIS "types" that are canon from mentions on screen, books, audio, etc. So, the Fugitive Doctor is eventually force regenerated into a child, goes to the academy, grows up, becomes friends with the Master, flunks out or leaves, and then as an old man goes with Susan to steal a TARDIS from the decommissioning yard. And is drawn to (and pushed toward by Clara) a specific TARDIS, which is the one the Fugitive Doctor used to use. The chameleon circuit getting stuck is because that's the last form it remembered, and it's old and worn out. And the fact that the Doctor is so deeply bonded with his TARDIS, which I was under the impression is fairly unique, is then explained by it having known him for thousands of years, longer than even he was aware of.
Love it or hate it, now that bigeneration is canon, that could also be The Valeyard's origin, either a suppressed trauma of a doctor we've seen trying to rid themselves of their darker instincts or perhaps from a future doctor we haven't seen yet.
I personally class all the comic relief doctors from "curse as fatal death" as real incarnations. Also the same for the Shalka Doctor
I think if the tenth doctor's regeneration back into himself counts as one, then jodie regenerating into the master and back into jodie definitely counts as two. Because it still cost the same amount of regeneration energy as if she just regenerated two times.
considering the fact the 14th doctor was like "what? what? what?" After the 13th doctor's regeneration I think with random regenerations I don't think you can choose.
Note: In the night of the doctor they said that regeneration on khan doesn't have to be random, the dude could've gone to khan and picked his 4th life's face.
If I was RTD I would have started Dallas style, with Capaldi stepping of the shower. He hits his head, falls, and regenerates into Gatwa. Done.
Fugitive Doctor needs to be placed between 2 and 3. Time Lords messed with her mind to get her to complete missions as punishment for interfering, then when the punishment is over, they're brought back, turned into 3 and send to Earth
Or, they turn Fugitive back into 2 via degeneration, meaning it leaves the Doctor with 11 regenerations left, wiped his mind of the Fugitive incarnation, and sent the Second Doctor out to do missions before exiling him and forced a regeneration. Season 6b was a thing before Chibnall came along :D
That really doesn't add up - the time lords already have been shown to have sent the second Doctor specifically on those missions. If they're already doing that, why also at some point force a regeneration? Plus in expanded media the Second Doctor eventually came to the realization that his memories were being screwed with. To me this is clear cut - we have a beginning, middle, and end of the Second Doctor's time working for the Time Lords. Truth is, there's no good place to slot Fugitive Doctor into, because it just doesn't add up.
I could see Big Finish doing a boxset in the future of Sacha Dhawan's Master Doctor during the time that Yaz ditches him in the Tardis
She can’t be a 6b doctor because she didn’t recognize the sonic screwdriver which would’ve been introduced by that time cause it was introduced in the second doctor’s era even though it wasn’t used as much in the classic era as it has been in the revival era 6b only exists cause the show didn’t have an actor casted to replace Patrick when he regenerated so while they were auditioning for what would become jon pertwee regeneration the comics went off on their own and made up there own plot line wise and made up new stories that got referred to as season 6b
Perhaps her regeneration had her mind wiped of the sonic screwdriver (for reasons) or maybe she didn't recognize it because of its completely different design to the second doctor's.
Since Chibnall acknowledged the morbius incarnations, they are obviously the immediate predecessors of the first doctor
If you count Timelines, Dr. Moon, The Dream Lord, the Big Finnish Curator, The Watcher, and 2.5th Doctor from Devious there’d be ~50
My Q is about the Valeyard, if the Doctor's regen is biological, wouldn't the Valeyard inherently have the unlimited regens? And I now find myself wondering about Jenny. As a duplicate of The Doctor, is she physically what the Doctor would've originally looked like before any regeneration?
"Christopher...Antony...CHIBNALL." Hah! I think I'll start referring to him that way.
16:26 I have a theory. We know that when the time lord used the force regeneration they could choose the new face. I’m figure it’s that aspect that takes the power (otherwise why not just shoot her). I think he uses himself as a template that knocks him out so yes he would be a doctor.
Oooo! I love the metal remix of the Gold theme! That wasn’t ever used on the show, was it? Is it available somewhere?
the Master Doctor does count, it's just not sequential, so there's an additional number in there, but whoever comes after isn't the 21st or 22nd etc, rather they're whatever the total number is up to and then the total tally is like 22 (+1) where the (+1) is the Master Doctor always being tacked on as an additional generation but one that was quashed
I think the Dr should get a tattoo like in Super Natural when they prevent demon possession but to prevent forced regeneration
Easiest solution for the Tardis issue, The Fugitive Doctor returned to Gallifrey to get her Tardis fixed as it kept glitching into a Police Box. It was still being fixed they had managed to do a temporary fix when it got stolen again.
11:30 your basically saying that after the 15th doctor he becomes the valley also I’m calling it that because I can’t spell lol. He’s not after 15th otherwise that would be confirmed when 15th regenerates and it obviously won’t so no and plus the valley isn’t a incarnation of the doctor so idk where u got that from
A few counterpoints:-
1. The Timeless Child, while being the source of the Time Lords' regenerative abilities, isn't necessarily a godlike being. It's certainly true that, after working for Division, the Child is reverted to infancy and grows up to become the boy we see in Listen.
2. The Doctor doesn't have unlimited regenerations. It's specifically stated that the capacity is limited to 12, which would include the Doctor at some point, presumably during graduation from the Academy; the gifting of the cycle being the final stage of the ceremony. Therefore, the Doctor's regeneration abilty is capped accordingly.
3. As you say, we see the First Doctor steal a TARDIS in The Name of the Doctor. Now, it could be this is the same TARDIS he used in his previous life, but there's no evidence the Timeless Child ever used a TARDIS.
4. The majority of onscreen evidence suggests that the Fugitive Doctor is indeed set within the enigmatic era of Season 6B, set some point after The Two Doctors. While it's true the Sonic Screwdriver was introduced in the Second Doctor's era, it wasn't used that often (4 times in 3 stories). As such, I'd say she can be forgiven for forgetting about it at that moment, after all, she'd only just got her memory back and the Sonic would be the last thing on her mind.
I'll talk about the evidence of Season 6B here: firstly, the fight scene in Gloucester Cathedral. The way it was shot is reminiscent of similar fight scenes in the Third Doctor era - e.g. The Curse of Peladon and The Time Warrior. Given that neither the First or Second Doctors displayed such skills, it would seem to be the case that 3's abilty is possibly the result of subconscious muscle memory of fighting techniques learned while in his previous hidden incarnation. Secondly, we have the TARDIS itself. As you pointed out, the Police Box guise was established to have been stuck in An Unearthly Child. As such, it can only be from a post-Hartnell era. Equally, the interior appears to be a cross between the Second and Third Doctors' interiors, subtly suggesting the placement of the Fugitive Doctor herself. There's also the percentage of power on Ruth's phone when she gets the text from Lee: 68%. It may be nothing, but 68 and 6B look remarkably similar at first glance. Is this another subtle clue? Also, I will also mention the fact the Third Doctor appears to be wearing the Second Doctor's clothes when he falls out of the TARDIS in Spearhead from Space. All I can suggest is that the Time Lords - or Division, more likely - forced to Doctor to change clothes before wiping her memory of her entire existence. It works for me, anyway.
5. I do think the Valeyard is the result of the Time Lord Victorious; a whisp of dark energy released during the Ten's regeneration into Eleven, made flesh by the Time Lords to threaten the existence of the Sixth Doctor. A sort of ontological paradox in many ways.
6. Talking of the Tenth Doctor, we're told that his 'first' regeneration counts by the Doctor himself. While it's true we was on the final life of his first regeneration cycle, he erroneously believed the cliffhanger resolution of The Stolen Earth/Journey's End counted, when in fact it was because he had no memory at all of his Fugitive incarnation. In short, the Doctor was wrong in assertion regarding vanity issues.
7. The Metacrisis Doctor, while not an incarnation, will later become the Cushing Doctor. This is only my headcanon, but I think it's worth sharing: after a particularly catastrophic event, the Doctor, Rose and Tony (Rose's brother) escape via a malfunctioning Dimension Cannon, which leads them to 1920s London, in the same universe they're already in. Rose and Tony are relatively unscathed, but the Doctor has no memory of who he is, beyond the fact he's a Doctor of some kind. He chooses to go by the name Doctor Who, and eventually he and Rose start a family. These children later grow up to have children of their own - Barbara and Susan. By the point of the films, Rose was killed during the Suez Crisis, and Tony has long had a family of his own, with his daughter Louise visiting her forgetful old uncle on a regular basis.
8. We'll have to wait and see where Tennant's "14th" Doctor fits in, but I suspect there's a lot more to than he's the next in sequence. Perhaps he's an older version of the Tenth Doctor; a what-if-Ten-didn't-regenerate scenario, perhaps.
9. Interestingly, Dr Moon in Silence of the Library/Forest of the Dead was intended to be the 45th Doctor; perhaps the Curator regenerates into him, thereby allowing him to make the ultimate sacrifice?
Sorry this is so long, but I hope I've offered easy answers to some of your more vexing questions.
I’m confused as to why Dr Moon is the 45th Doctor
@@NobodyNobody310 In an dual-interview with Doctor Who Magazine a few years ago, Steven Moffat and Russell T Davies discussed the fact that Moffst had originally posited that Dr Moon was the 45th incarnation of the Doctor. It depends on where one stands on authorial intent, as it was only ever in the stage directions of drafts of the script. However, a lot of fans at the time, myself included, thought this was a nice little titbit of possible lore. It certainly feels very Doctorish, and could be seen as a definitive end for the character. Obviously, we're a long way off 45 yet, so until such time, I think it's plausible. Equally obviously, once the show gets to that point, the 45th Doctor wouldn't be played by Colin Salmon anyway, so maybe it's a moot point. Anyway, I hope that goes someway to explaining it
8. Seems he was the next incarnation afterall haha
to do with the morbius doctors even if Division made him forget I would think that the memories would still be buried in his subconscious
There’s really only one Doctor,the one you watched as a child.
I Just corresponded with some Whovians in the comments section on a video about Doctor Who companions. To say some Whovians are toxic would be an understatement😳 All I said was that I thought Sarah Jane Smith was the most influential companion. You’d have thought I was calling some people’s grannies street walkers!!! The abuse I got was stunning! I thought the Doctor Who fan base were some of the nicest people around. It seems not!!!
Peace and happiness from Dublin Ireland 💚🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷
My take @20:00 - back then the Time Lords hadn't erased those DIVISION Morbius Doctors...
it was when The 6th Doctor went into the Matrix that they were deleted... they were blocked, obscured, obfuscated back then... but after the 6th unravelled the Ravolox heist, the TimeLords decided to completely erase what they had hidden when the Doctor ran away from the Division !!
There is also the doctor from the cabinet of light from the time hunter novella series
Ithought originally there was only 13 reincarnation of a time lord but they broke this cannon with the master in the original series
You forgot Brenden the policeman
(Here’s some secret Doctors that are real that not everyone knows about)
Dr moon is a secret incarnation from the episodes forest of the dead and silence in the library
dream lord is a secret incarnation of the doctor as well
Jackson lakes doctor is technically but he’s not actually a doctor so I Wouldn’t put it as that
Mobius Doctors of classic era of dr who
And btw the 13th doctors master regenerated into the doctor isn’t a incarnation of the doctor
The timeless child is just like that there was a War Doctor that no-one knew about, not all of them are numbered and so not all of them have to be titled for it to be a regeneration
What if the meta crisis tenth doctor is the valeyard and the meta crisis doctor found a way to regenerate
i posted this somewhere else but i'll post it here. i do my start where we know "The Doctor' title counts.
from this line of reasoning and in order this is wat i got
1. Jo Martin (Fugitive doctor) [1st doctor] if this is where she started calling herself doctor
2. William Hartnell (1st doctor) [2nd]
3. Patrick Trouten (2nd doctor) [3rd]
4. Jon Pertwee (3rd doctor) [4th]
5. Tom Baker (4th doctor) [5th]
6. Peter Davison (5th doctor) [6th]
7. Colin Baked (6th doctor) [7th]
8. Slyvester Mccoy (7th doctor) [8th]
9. Paul Mcgan (8th doctor) [9th]
10. John Hurt (The war doctor) [10th] called himself the doctor again at the end
11. Christopher Eccelston (9th doctor) [11th]
12. David Tennant (10th doctor) [12th]
13. David Tennant (10th doctor) [13th] regenerated but was able to kept same body and face
14. Matt Smith (11th doctor) [14th]
15. Peter Calpaldi (12th doctor) [15th]
16. Jodie Whittaker (13th doctor) [16th]
17. Sacha Dhawan (14th doctor) [17th] Forced regeneration became the master doctor
18. Jodie Whittaker (13th doctor) [18th] said it was a degeneration but i think it still used up a regeneration
19. David Tennant (14th doctor offically by the bbc) [19th]
for me this is wat he have currently in the main show. every other body during the timeless child is not counted nor is the morbius doctors since they where just shown as faces and not called previous "doctors" and possible future doctors is not counted either like the curator.
Personally, I still think the Fugitive Doctor slots between Two and Three. The biggest reason for that is because the Second Doctor was forced on missions for the Time Lords before they regenerated into Three - who's to say there isn't another incarnation tucked away between them, much like the War Doctor between Eight and Nine?
The copper who got his memory taken off him. He implied that was the doctor as well. Lol
I dig that version of the theme y'all use in the intro.
I wouldn't count The Meta Crisis one who lives with Rose as he is technically a seperate entity. The Master-Doctor also degenerated so I wouldn't consider that one. I was never sure if the Valeyard is like the same entity we know as The Doctor or some creation of a seperate entity so not sure about him. As for the rest, as far as we know, are the person we know as The Doctor. As for the order of them? Who bloody knows?
Speaking of degeneration tho, I wonder if the Master-Doctor shenanigans are partly why they re-regenerated into Tennant? Either way I hope they manage to give a fun/interesting in-universe story for it.
Also, an issue I have with The Timeless Child stuff is it kinda suggest that The Doctor is special because The Doctor is special. Where as before The Doctor seemed special because of what and who they chose to be.
You forgot the “ Merlin” future Doctor from Battlefield.
Also I guess this implies that a time stream as shown in "name of the doctor" can only keep track of what a time lord remembers, which is why nothing pre Hartnell is shown
I like the idea that the Second Doctor was changed into the Fugitive Doctor, and was recruited by Division, had her own adventures, and eventually her memories were wiped before changing into the Third Doctor.
Chibnall really took everything from the show's history and dialled it up to a million. This whole thing with regeneration is a total cluster-f*ck.
Here's a thought for you: what if the Master Doctor is the precursor to the rise of the Valeyard? I mean it could also be related to the Dream Doctor... Jenny absolutely counts, as well
9:06 yh why is there 2 versions of the 10th doctor and then you also have 14th lol 😅
I only count 15 plus the War Doctor and The Curator. The way I look at it the rest could be explained away by The Celestial Toymaker admittedly making a jigsaw out of The Doctor's history.
Technically you could count the Dream Lord, since the 11th Doctor said he was him, although there are theories out there that the Dream Lord could have been The Valleyard, which honestly I could believe. There is a few other Doctors though in alternate universes, as confirmed by Big Finish Audios (something I found out about a month or 2 ago at work), with one of them being called The Unbound Doctor. Loved the clip.
Edit: In terms of how many Doctors I think there are: I had no idea of the ones from Morbius, but honestly I don't think I'd count them anyway because I just don't know what to make of them, same with the Master Doctor. I personally do count the Meta-Crisis Doctor, though I completely understand why others like yourself don't, and I do count The Valleyard and Dream Lord. I've not seen the Peter Cushing Doctor Who movies, but I could see myself counting him. I do also count the Unbound Doctor(s), but not knowing how many of them there are makes things a little confusing...If we do count that, it's probably 21+ Doctors?
At least with the memory wiping right before Hartnell, it's like starting a fresh. Even if this people pre Hartnell are technically the same physical person, they're not the doctor we know. The doctor we know never remembers being them and therefore isn't them, isn't shaped by their past. If you don't remember it, is it really you.
There's also another known incarnation of the curator, being played by Colin Baker.
Also, there's the Unbound Doctors. Up until now, the whole premise of these were that they were alternative cannon, and not part of the main universe or timeline; however, there are rumours that one of the unbound Doctors (it may be the David Warner incarnation) in set to appear alongside main doctors in big finish'es 60th anniversary multi doctor story "once and future", thus potentially making, at least some, of the unbound Doctors canon aswell.
I'd also include the curse of fatal death and scream of the shalka doctors as alternate timeline doctors.
Might as well count Rowland Atkinson and all of his regenerations as those too then.
@@troodon1096 What do you think Curse of Fatal Death is?
@@rhodrage It's weird.
What I want to know is how did The Doctor know he used one up when he channelled it into his hand? He seems certain when he was telling Clara, rather than just not being sure that he had or hadn't.... that's always bugged me.
I always assumed that the Doctor "made up" the Morbius Doctors because he knew Morbius was significantly older/more powerful/better equipped to win the contest - it was a trick to keep Morbius distracted, nothing more. Also, where does the Watcher fit in? An interstitial form he may have been, but he was still autonomous (communicating with the Fourth Doctor, and piloting Nyssa to Logopolis in the TARDIS).
My count of Doctors is at 19 just counting the ones we see regeneration from one to another. start with the 1st Doctor William Hartnell as the 1st one, the 2nd Doctor the 2nd, the 3rd the 3rd, and so on, until we get to the War Doctor John Hurt who is 9th incarnation making the 9th Doctor the 10th Incarnation. next we have double David Tennant as the 10th Doctor being incarnation 11th and 12th, making Matt Smith the 13th incarnation of the Doctor. Pater Capaldi is straightforward as the 12th Doctor making him the 14th incarnation. the 13th Doctor Jodie Whittaker is the 15th incarnation and then you get the Master Sacha Dhawan as the 16th Incarnation of the Doctor and then back to Jodie make her also the 17th incarnation. David Tennant comes back as the 14th Doctor being the 18th incarnation, keep his title as the actor that's played the most incarnation of the Doctor. Making Ncuti Gatwa up and coming Doctor as the 15th Doctor but also the19th incarnation of the Time Lord we know as the Doctor.
If you count the metacrisis Doctor, you HAVE to count Jenny. Both were extrapolated from the Doctor's DNA, Jenny probably combined with other DNA (she's obviously not a clone), Donna donating her DNA to that of the Handy Spare Hand.....
The Valeyard is 14 so Tennant is the first version of the Valeyard 😮
I now can't rule out the possibility that I might be The Doctor but I had my memories erased or something.
You know as I was watching through some videos and the one line we got from Ncuti Gatwa in the latest trailers I think it's going to be some metaphysical... Thing and that 14 incarnation is Ncuti but through timey wimey Tennant is some like transitionary body, like a temporary regeneration? Idk
What do I consider a “Doctor”? A character that in confirmed to be somewhere in the 1-15 run of the Doctor, and have more than one appearance. Paul McGann was worked out but consistently seen in the line up. The War Doctor... ummm... sure. Should have been Eccleston but anyway, we know how that went, so... sure, War Doctor.
Peter Cushing's Doctor is believed to be older version of the meta crisis Doctor by quite a few fans. I like and embrace this theory.
I'm starting to believe more and more that we are looking at a collision of a multiverse of Doctors. We have the Hartnell to current story of about 15-ish Doctors, and the Chibnall timeline was one that, you got it, fell through a portal. I even think that the Doctor introduced in that episode might have gotten displaced since the events of her story. In short, I don't think her and Hartnell's timelines are exactly the same.
Many believe the 4th Doctor projections were just other lives he created in his mind to fool Morbius. Old time theory. I could think of another theory, but knowing the craftiness of the 4th Doctor, I like this theory best.
Often thought the Dreamlord and Valeyard were basically the same. Other fans have noted this. Sad that the noble Doctor has physical negative seepage that goes into the universe to cause havoc. Or... maybe the Valeyard and Dreamlord are the Doctor so aged and changed that the younger Doctors barely recognize the motives of the Doctor. For example, it would have been interesting if say, the War Doctor, who was hurt and darkened by the time war, was actually the Valeyard. And when the War Doctor (used as example) met with his younger self, his goal to stop the time war, and whatever the younger Doctor was doing were in conflict. See that is where the Valeyard would be interesting. That he is actually not evil, just totally different and alien to a younger Doctor's eyes.
And the great Curator I believe is a later and retired regeneration of the Doctor.
Infinite amount of Doctors. We just haven’t seen their story yet. The timeless child and infinite regenerations is just so there is always a doctor out there to write about. Which I don’t mind tbh
There's only one Doctor. The one who is on screen when you watch an episode
A theory that I haven’t heard anyone talking about is that the Doctor and the Master are the same being… I believe this because we witnessed Missy(Master) Supposedly die and it was to be the last death. But the master came back for the timeless child. My theory goes that the Master was created as a result of the torture of the timeless child and it was the years of imprisonment by the “12th Doctor” That started the reformation of the Master to the Doctor.
Thoughts?
finally i have a "difinitive" listing of carnations. i figured out based off the episode where they show past doctors in the memories of the doctor [forgive me i dont have the number off the bat] that we had to be at least 30 or 40th dr.who reincarnation.
I think that the whole Timeless Child Doctors AND The Valeyard Doctor are certainly inn question, as to cannon. Since when do we take The Master’s word for anything. The antagonist lies. These could just be his lies.
There's one way to deal with the whole problem
Sod it and just enjoy the individual eras and stories 👍
That's how Joe Public cope 😊
Really hoping Russell writes The timeless child out of canon somehow.
He won't and I doubt the BBC will let him even if he wanted to. It shouldn't have been written. Chibs is an idiot. There are no Doctors before Hartnell as far as I'm concerned. I'll always hate Chibs for this.
Pretty much dead anyway even if they do
I actually stick with Lungbarrow myself as the Timeless child is controdicted so much even with Matt Smith regeneration 13, but there were 6 pre doctors in the form of the other. Really The timeless Child fits Rassillon or Omega or even the master, never make your main character immortal is a massive mistake as it removes all drama
3:28 "recently departed" makes it sound like he's dead 😅
In watching the episode, the timeless child as a whovian I think that is pure heresy
As for the fugitive Dr., I think that she is possible but you also have to look at it from a completely different perspective, involving other dimensions and other timelines
As for the 50th anniversary where we’re John Hurt play the doctor I would say that he was out of place
As for Peter Capaldi playing the 12th doctor that does work for me, however in his original description that he’ll be like Tom Baker, that just did not happen.
As for David Tennant return to play the 14th Dr. is perfect
I think it’s possible that in doing so that could explain the future of Dr.
Only time will tail
I hope the Timeless Child is retconned and Jo Martin is a future doctor rather than a past.
Honestly it would make more sense that she's a future Doctor than a past one; I like the character but as she's presented she's a major plot hole. Easiest way to patch up the plot hole is to stick her in the future somewhere.
I suppose one other place she could be argued, and would even make sense that her TARDIS was a police box, is if she was in fact between 2 and 3, and just had her memory erased before she became 3, so that 3 would only remember being 1 and 2.
What about Merlin who was teased to be a future Doctor in the 7th Doctor story Battlefield.