Resistance in the current collector reduces the short-circuit current and corresponding heating, but it's also going to reduce coulombic efficiency, and increase heating in use, and potentially reduce charge rate and peak power out. Now many there is enough margin to have sufficient charge and discharge rates, and total efficiency and still have usefully limited short-circuit current. but I am skeptical. Some numbers would help a lot in assessing this. OK. They do go into this a bit around 19:30. There are existing cells which are fairly nail-test proof: CATL used it to show safety in their blade cells, for example, and I think quite a few LFP cells will also not usually catch fire - they just let out some gas and get a bit hot.
LFP cells won't catch fire, but they can get hot enough to boil the electrolyte (the escaping gas) and it is flammable. Really depends on how it's punctured.
That nail test was freaking insane. Relative to a traditional current collector, how much more (or less?) resistive loss does this novel type incur under normal operation?
You guys have completely outdone Sandy attacking the Tesla battery pack with a Sawzall. The gunfire in the background really gave the piece some authority.
YES! this answered my buggest question in the last video, which was whether or not this new novel process what chemistry independent, and knowing that Sakuu's process can be used to make NMC,NCA,LFP and Na-Ion makes this a winner for me. when can I buy stocks
We really need to hear the full stats for batteries made using this tech. Power density in terms of both mass and volume? C rating and max charge/discharge rates? What does the voltage vs charge level curve look like? Is it possible to easily determine SOC simply by output voltage, or do you need a fancy BMS that tracks current in/out to estimate SOC. How rapidly does it degrade when charged to 100%?
@@tedmoss all batteries deteriorate by being heated during charging and discharging even lead acid batteries. So it will deteriorate faster as compared to what exactly?
Battery looks great! As I know BYD performed the nail test years ago on blade batteries and they survived well. So it is not new. But it would be interesting see how performs blade battery when You shoot it.
Nice. But the polymeric current collectors limits the power of the cell to some extent because of the higher resistance for that reason the power will be released more slowly as conventional lithium ion batteries
If you stack the cells in series the current remains low and the higher resistance has no limiting effect. Also the current carrying surface is much larger. It comes down to optimizing your pack configuration (series vs. parallel).
@@arwedniestroj3330Don't get me wrong... I really like the cell design, because it reduces the mass and use of metal and I hope that the cell design will succeeded. In the past I make Zn-Br cell which uses the same cell concept. But in the end the resistance of the current collectors will limit the power of each cell.
This test cell has very little energy with only one set of sheets, so thermal event doesn’t happen as there is not enough short current. I bet the same test with a real cell containing 100s of sheets sandwiched tight under pressure would increase the risk of thermal event.
We have also done nail penetration of a 4Ah stack of these cells. The discharge takes minutes instead of milliseconds, without significant temperature increase.
Who remembers the packet batteries in the Polaroid film packs? Amazing cells and must have been dirt cheap to be included in that pack. Of course disposal was never considered. American's dispose of 33 Billion batteries a year - mostly into the landfill.
Für die Parallelschaltung dieser Zellen kann ein dreilagiger Kupferfolienstapel verwendet, der innen wie Heatpipe aufgebaut ist. Es empfiehlt sich jedoch, die Fähigkeit des Kupfer-Konstantan-Kupfer-Metallübergangs für eine thermisch optimale Paralelschalltung zu nutzen.
The 10 year old battery in my BMW i3 frequently has to provide maximum power, for a few seconds at a time. A 20kWh battery providing 125 kW is running at a little over C6. Admittedly, this is for brief periods, but this Sakuu battery would not be able to match BMW's 10 year old technology for current output.
Your are comparing a full pack design with just one cell. It depends on the full pack configuration. In series you can have high power with high voltage and low currents.
You stated the watt-hour rating of the cell but didn't tell us the weight of the cell. So we still don't know the gravimetric energy density of the cell. Good job.
Does the relatively high internal resistance imply that it exhibits a comparatively rapid self-discharge? (Thus suggesting that this technology is not the best solution for medium to long-term energy storage, such as leaving a fully-charged vehicle unused for 2-4 weeks?)
The resistance is not from anode to cathode, but in series with the output. Just means more energy is turned into heat instead of being used, reducing efficiency.
Important parameters of a rechargeable battery are energy density and specific energy. This is the energy per kilogram or per liter. Not discussed here. Since there is series resistance for each cell, what is the limit in charge rate? Not discussed. This would cause the temperature of the battery to rise during, for example, a 30-minute charge. There's no way around this temperature rise due to all the resistance. So would it have a practical limit on charging rate. For example, if it took an hour that would not be acceptable. Of course, resistance could be added to any lithium type of battery or rechargeable battery that would provide the protection that you demonstrated. Of course it would cause a limitation on how fast the battery could be discharged and how rapidly it could be charged. Important factors not discussed here.
Hah, Mr Munro, with that beard (which I also have at the moment) You look like 70-ish years old engeneer 😄. When we shave, we will have, again, our real 55. (Like I always say, modesty is my favorite characteristic but the objestive truth is imposible to avoid 😇) . Thank You Mr Munro...(& Associates)!
Seems the cell will go structural in real sense. For now at best its the structure around the cell that protects the cell that at best is making floor of the vehicle. Cell technology and chemistry like this one will make it into more structural part.
CATL FreeVoy has it now; they used full-auto rifle. Urban/ChiTown gets all the hype, but idyllic Alaska leads in violent crime rate every year. Market it from there, powering... Oil drilling. But salt vs lithium for cold. (FreeVoy has that too). Heck, since gunshots are Leading Cause of Child Death in US, national ad campaign. RIP'd kid, but unexploded celly!
CATL FreeVoy has it now; they used full-auto rifle. Urban/ChiTown gets all the hype, but idyllic Alaska leads in violent crime rate every year. Market it from there, powering... Oil drilling. But salt vs lithium for cold. (FreeVoy has that too). Heck, since gunshots are Leading Cause of Child Death, national ad campaign. RIP'd kid, but unexploded celly!
This technology looks similar to a SINOPEC-funded paper (Yingjie Du, et al.) published this summer on carbon-incorporated polyimide current collectors. (Except your demonstration was more fun than the nail penetration test in their paper.) In my opinion, it's less of an issue with this technology being developed overseas (inevitable), but rather about how we keep a local supply chain going on here. (even more topical given China's export bans of other strategic resources like Gallium this week)
High impedence polymeric current collectors. Safety achieved, even when a cell bears heavy damage, but output current compromised, even without any cells suffering any damage at all. Battery safety is a major issue, in my view. I'm not sure this is the right solution though.
Mmm - Are we looking at something that will replace plip and phone batteries here, not sure it will run a car.? Speed of charging and capacity distribution sounds too poor for that.
My god, you are right!, just add another stack…Big Mac is a simple double stack, what if we add a third stack?, surly this will attract Trumps attention. The technology should be marketed to him in this way, really, the cheeseburger analogy… a double, a triple, double-double, (thank you In and Out for the phrase) etc…The Donald is sure to understand this analogy intimately. It makes sense to me and I’ve eaten a shitload of cheeseburgers and no doubt he has bested me in this area.
Not interested in EVs until the batteries are really safe. This could be the ticket. But I do not trust lithium batteries, there are so many thermal runaway events occurring, few in EVs. But after vehicles have been neglected, used in salt etc. I just think the risks are too great so safety should be the gold star rating.
i guess the power of this mini cell is not enough to produce any significant amount of heat, or is the thermal event purely based on the chemistry? but really nice to see it working after removing the nail
Guns are the problem, not the solution. What’s with your juvenile fascination with weapons of war? You reap what you sow and gun violence is endemic in America.
1) Another showcase of utter ignorance of Ohm's law and basic electricity. 2) The magic "safety" comes from high internal planar resistance which limits current going in or out. 3) If this can be reduced "100 times" to increase the current, then it will heat up 100x as well, and catch the electrolyte on fire. Yes, it's the water components, H & O which cause the fires, (water based electrolyte, used in all Lithium batts). The nominal Voltage of Li batteries is above the ~ 2.5 V where Electrolysis separates water into H & O. The rest is a simple "teeter-totter" between higher planar resistance and low current & heat or lower planar resistance (i.e. copper or aluminum) and high current & heat. As for funding...Sandy was a spokesman, a mascot, and financially involved with his dream vehicle: Arcimoto Surely he could spend some of the millions made from Arcimoto to fund this inane High School "Science Fair Battery".
Interesting battery tech. Like the beard, Sandy. Makes you look like a retired professor, Is Henson shaving no longer a channel sponsor? One thing I value about your channel is it’s truthfulness about corporate America. Hope you aren’t following Elon down the Donald Trump rabbit hole. Trump promotes a lot of things but truth isn’t one of them. Stay away from politics and stick to engineering. It’s a good way to end up a mean and bitter old man, with or without the beard.
Genuine fact: an "ocean" of metallic hydrogen is what powers the magnetic field on Jupiter but it requires many tens or even hundreds of thousands of atmospheric pressure equivalent and extreme heat to be achieved. For a gas giant? No problem, for any real world practical use here on earth? Probably not so much.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
SANDY Claus Is Coming to Town ! ! ! !
🎅🏼
@@MunroLive Christmas gift is that:
No battery ever will blow on ma face when someone shoot me in the face.
@@MunroLive Sounds much like the BYB Blade battery ?
I was thinking he looked more like Papa Smurf.
@@spacemanmat Ho ho ho! 😀
Sandy, I'm the guy that talked to you about this battery for some 10 minutes in Vancouver a couple months ago. I'm still all over this tech.
Sandy you are prohibited from removing the majestic beard
Next up on Munro Live: a teardown of the 2024 Sleigh
Can we get Craig to run a cost analysis on that beard?
It's made in China.
Resistance in the current collector reduces the short-circuit current and corresponding heating, but it's also going to reduce coulombic efficiency, and increase heating in use, and potentially reduce charge rate and peak power out. Now many there is enough margin to have sufficient charge and discharge rates, and total efficiency and still have usefully limited short-circuit current. but I am skeptical. Some numbers would help a lot in assessing this. OK. They do go into this a bit around 19:30. There are existing cells which are fairly nail-test proof: CATL used it to show safety in their blade cells, for example, and I think quite a few LFP cells will also not usually catch fire - they just let out some gas and get a bit hot.
LFP cells won't catch fire, but they can get hot enough to boil the electrolyte (the escaping gas) and it is flammable. Really depends on how it's punctured.
That nail test was freaking insane.
Relative to a traditional current collector, how much more (or less?) resistive loss does this novel type incur under normal operation?
Oh man I cannot wait for these batteries to become widely available!
Aww, I wanted to see something go boom. It would have been interesting to watch side by side comparisons for the different chemistries.
You guys have completely outdone Sandy attacking the Tesla battery pack with a Sawzall. The gunfire in the background really gave the piece some authority.
Colonel Sandy never revealing the special ingredients 😂
Unbelievable battery tech !
Sandy is a SANTA today ,,to the end of a day"
Great team, great content. Thanks for sharing this.
I like this video. Very technical, but very insightful.
I LOVE THE BEARD. Never thought I'd say that to another man.
😂
Go Sandy and team, I live for this, ! When these batteries are powering commercial planes we'll have seen big progress !
YES! this answered my buggest question in the last video, which was whether or not this new novel process what chemistry independent, and knowing that Sakuu's process can be used to make NMC,NCA,LFP and Na-Ion makes this a winner for me. when can I buy stocks
Great video once again!! AND, Sandy's beard is GREAT, looks very cool!
cant wait to put these batteries on my radio control aerobatic aeromodels!!!
We really need to hear the full stats for batteries made using this tech.
Power density in terms of both mass and volume?
C rating and max charge/discharge rates?
What does the voltage vs charge level curve look like?
Is it possible to easily determine SOC simply by output voltage, or do you need a fancy BMS that tracks current in/out to estimate SOC.
How rapidly does it degrade when charged to 100%?
Great video Sandy!
I'm thinking of a few machines to repurpose for Sakuu for production, to reach high volume production.
Who's this? Sandy of Anarchy 😅?
A very promising battery .
How will the battery stand up to the heat of charging and discharging
It will deteriorate faster.
@@tedmoss all batteries deteriorate by being heated during charging and discharging even lead acid batteries. So it will deteriorate faster as compared to what exactly?
Battery looks great! As I know BYD performed the nail test years ago on blade batteries and they survived well. So it is not new. But it would be interesting see how performs blade battery when You shoot it.
i like this look for sandy
Sandy in seasonal trim🎅🏻
❤The channel & great work you all do.
Nice. But the polymeric current collectors limits the power of the cell to some extent because of the higher resistance for that reason the power will be released more slowly as conventional lithium ion batteries
If you stack the cells in series the current remains low and the higher resistance has no limiting effect. Also the current carrying surface is much larger. It comes down to optimizing your pack configuration (series vs. parallel).
@@arwedniestroj3330Don't get me wrong... I really like the cell design, because it reduces the mass and use of metal and I hope that the cell design will succeeded. In the past I make Zn-Br cell which uses the same cell concept. But in the end the resistance of the current collectors will limit the power of each cell.
So less production scrap?
Sandy you have to use beard oil and beard butter if you want to keep your neck from itching from that sweet beard you have there.
The beard provides +35 toughness and negotiating power.
For surface resistance of polymeric current collectors I think I have some easy solution which can reduce in my case the resistance for 6 times. 🤔
This test cell has very little energy with only one set of sheets, so thermal event doesn’t happen as there is not enough short current. I bet the same test with a real cell containing 100s of sheets sandwiched tight under pressure would increase the risk of thermal event.
We have also done nail penetration of a 4Ah stack of these cells. The discharge takes minutes instead of milliseconds, without significant temperature increase.
Game changer here on record.
10:37
Who remembers the packet batteries in the Polaroid film packs? Amazing cells and must have been dirt cheap to be included in that pack. Of course disposal was never considered. American's dispose of 33 Billion batteries a year - mostly into the landfill.
Recycling is taking off as more batteries have reached end of life.
That would be 95 batteries for every man woman and child in the USA. Sounds like made up stats.
It would be great to see the Sakuu batteries combined to power the lightweight, super efficient, solar assisted Aptera EV. 🚗🌞
Für die Parallelschaltung dieser Zellen kann ein dreilagiger Kupferfolienstapel verwendet, der innen wie Heatpipe aufgebaut ist. Es empfiehlt sich jedoch, die Fähigkeit des Kupfer-Konstantan-Kupfer-Metallübergangs für eine thermisch optimale Paralelschalltung zu nutzen.
The 10 year old battery in my BMW i3 frequently has to provide maximum power, for a few seconds at a time. A 20kWh battery providing 125 kW is running at a little over C6. Admittedly, this is for brief periods, but this Sakuu battery would not be able to match BMW's 10 year old technology for current output.
Your are comparing a full pack design with just one cell. It depends on the full pack configuration. In series you can have high power with high voltage and low currents.
@@arwedniestroj3330 The i3 battery has 96 cells in series. Every cell has to handle 300+ amps at full power. C rating doesn't depend on cell size.
You stated the watt-hour rating of the cell but didn't tell us the weight of the cell. So we still don't know the gravimetric energy density of the cell. Good job.
Does the relatively high internal resistance imply that it exhibits a comparatively rapid self-discharge?
(Thus suggesting that this technology is not the best solution for medium to long-term energy storage, such as leaving a fully-charged vehicle unused for 2-4 weeks?)
The resistance is not from anode to cathode, but in series with the output. Just means more energy is turned into heat instead of being used, reducing efficiency.
Good Overview and information. And Sandy looks good in a beard, says this beard wearer!
I would’ve just use superglue instead of the tape, but what do I know I’m a nuclear submariner😊 the Highlander
Important parameters of a rechargeable battery are energy density and specific energy. This is the energy per kilogram or per liter. Not discussed here.
Since there is series resistance for each cell, what is the limit in charge rate? Not discussed. This would cause the temperature of the battery to rise during, for example, a 30-minute charge. There's no way around this temperature rise due to all the resistance. So would it have a practical limit on charging rate. For example, if it took an hour that would not be acceptable.
Of course, resistance could be added to any lithium type of battery or rechargeable battery that would provide the protection that you demonstrated. Of course it would cause a limitation on how fast the battery could be discharged and how rapidly it could be charged.
Important factors not discussed here.
Discussed. At decent length. Get some coffee & try again. (They said 2-5C on this pouch config, 10-100C possible, w decreased boom resistance 💥).
hang in there, just let it grow..soon you can't feel it!
When do you think these batteries will be available for EV full operations ?
Uncle Sam
Why do these guys call it C2, when everyone else in the world calls it 2C? Odd. I neve rheard this before. What do they call 'C over 2'? i.e half-C?
Sandy's looking absolutely badass with that beard!
Space?
Let the smoke out!
uh oh, there goes the magic smoke.
Dude robots about to get nuts need a lined fancy pack with this! How manny MAH was that little pack
how about as a house battery ??
Not necessary, but for VTOL/dronetaxi it would be perfect
Hah, Mr Munro, with that beard (which I also have at the moment) You look like 70-ish years old engeneer 😄. When we shave, we will have, again, our real 55. (Like I always say, modesty is my favorite characteristic but the objestive truth is imposible to avoid 😇) .
Thank You Mr Munro...(& Associates)!
Now that donuts are more than a dollar, is that still a good bet?
awesome
Seems the cell will go structural in real sense. For now at best its the structure around the cell that protects the cell that at best is making floor of the vehicle. Cell technology and chemistry like this one will make it into more structural part.
EV battery which survives drive-by shooting in Chicago Southside is exactly what the market needs. Great marketing 👍
CATL FreeVoy has it now; they used full-auto rifle. Urban/ChiTown gets all the hype, but idyllic Alaska leads in violent crime rate every year. Market it from there, powering... Oil drilling. But salt vs lithium for cold. (FreeVoy has that too).
Heck, since gunshots are Leading Cause of Child Death in US, national ad campaign. RIP'd kid, but unexploded celly!
CATL FreeVoy has it now; they used full-auto rifle. Urban/ChiTown gets all the hype, but idyllic Alaska leads in violent crime rate every year. Market it from there, powering... Oil drilling. But salt vs lithium for cold. (FreeVoy has that too).
Heck, since gunshots are Leading Cause of Child Death, national ad campaign. RIP'd kid, but unexploded celly!
The warning is so grave it made me laugh
This technology looks similar to a SINOPEC-funded paper (Yingjie Du, et al.) published this summer on carbon-incorporated polyimide current collectors. (Except your demonstration was more fun than the nail penetration test in their paper.) In my opinion, it's less of an issue with this technology being developed overseas (inevitable), but rather about how we keep a local supply chain going on here. (even more topical given China's export bans of other strategic resources like Gallium this week)
3:45
Kind of. alimited demo. Current/Voltage would be nice as well as a thermal structure.
Laser-trimmable resistors. The new tech revolution.
High impedence polymeric current collectors. Safety achieved, even when a cell bears heavy damage, but output current compromised, even without any cells suffering any damage at all.
Battery safety is a major issue, in my view. I'm not sure this is the right solution though.
🎯 with no 💥 still⚡️= 💰
Ads are 4.5 DB louder than your audio. Quite annoying in that I've seen the ads 40+ times and the sound levels are far off.
We don’t control the ads, RUclips does.
@@MunroLive They are a reflection on your business. Your response is Bud Lite worthy.
No video evidence of the capacity or the DC/IR tests? They must have failed.
Military
Your armour is your energy supply.
2 for 1.
More battery hocus-pocus.
You could light a LED with a lemon
Is that beard wife-approved? LOL
Mmm - Are we looking at something that will replace plip and phone batteries here, not sure it will run a car.? Speed of charging and capacity distribution sounds too poor for that.
Smother the cells in Big Mac sauce and you’ll get Trumps attention.
😂
they can make a triple stack
My god, you are right!, just add another stack…Big Mac is a simple double stack, what if we add a third stack?, surly this will attract Trumps attention. The technology should be marketed to him in this way, really, the cheeseburger analogy… a double, a triple, double-double, (thank you In and Out for the phrase) etc…The Donald is sure to understand this analogy intimately. It makes sense to me and I’ve eaten a shitload of cheeseburgers and no doubt he has bested me in this area.
@@foremasp 😂😂😂😂
Not interested in EVs until the batteries are really safe. This could be the ticket. But I do not trust lithium batteries, there are so many thermal runaway events occurring, few in EVs. But after vehicles have been neglected, used in salt etc. I just think the risks are too great so safety should be the gold star rating.
You look like Willie Nelson. And that ain’t bad thing :-)
i guess the power of this mini cell is not enough to produce any significant amount of heat, or is the thermal event purely based on the chemistry? but really nice to see it working after removing the nail
Guns are the problem, not the solution. What’s with your juvenile fascination with weapons of war? You reap what you sow and gun violence is endemic in America.
1) Another showcase of utter ignorance of Ohm's law and basic electricity. 2) The magic "safety" comes from high internal planar resistance which limits current going in or out. 3) If this can be reduced "100 times" to increase the current, then it will heat up 100x as well, and catch the electrolyte on fire.
Yes, it's the water components, H & O which cause the fires, (water based electrolyte, used in all Lithium batts). The nominal Voltage of Li batteries is above the ~ 2.5 V where Electrolysis separates water into H & O. The rest is a simple "teeter-totter" between higher planar resistance and low current & heat or lower planar resistance (i.e. copper or aluminum) and high current & heat.
As for funding...Sandy was a spokesman, a mascot, and financially involved with his dream vehicle: Arcimoto Surely he could spend some of the millions made from Arcimoto to fund this inane High School "Science Fair Battery".
But of course, that is only one cell, put a car battery together and try a real test, not just in the lab.
Sukuu gave you a non-production cell. So what is the point of testing it? This video is very disappointing!
Looking good, Sandy! But I admit I too prefer the Naked Munro...😉
Beard oil.
Interesting battery tech.
Like the beard, Sandy. Makes you look like a retired professor, Is Henson shaving no longer a channel sponsor?
One thing I value about your channel is it’s truthfulness about corporate America. Hope you aren’t following Elon down the Donald Trump rabbit hole. Trump promotes a lot of things but truth isn’t one of them. Stay away from politics and stick to engineering. It’s a good way to end up a mean and bitter old man, with or without the beard.
Metallic Hydrogen appears to be a promising theoretical technology.
Genuine fact: an "ocean" of metallic hydrogen is what powers the magnetic field on Jupiter but it requires many tens or even hundreds of thousands of atmospheric pressure equivalent and extreme heat to be achieved. For a gas giant? No problem, for any real world practical use here on earth? Probably not so much.
One cell made from cardboard is hardly a convincing test.
You’re just going through the teething stage of a beard nothing to worry about as it goes away forever