de Waal is such a brilliant scientist, and his work is so important for our understanding of ourselves. His research needs to be taught in every school...
Its just so sad that there are people out there, a majority in fact, who cant see how wonderful it is to have chimps and bonobos as family members. Great show, though I must confess(NOT in a confessional-gave that up when i was 9) to being just a tiny bit jealous of you getting to talk with such a great biologist ,and, more importantly,great primate. Loved this.Ta for all you do.
Great interview, and I loved how you closed with the idea of feeling connected, not insulted/intimidated, by the idea of being a primate, among many other species of primates.
Thanks for this it was really informative. I loved the brief inclusion about the likely trans chimps and banobos. I’ve always suspected that was the case but it’s nice to hear from an expert
When did gender non-conformity start getting labelled transgender? And why, if gender non-conformity exists across species and is fine do the medical profession think it’s ethical to surgically “fix” it.
@@roxee57 I’m happy to correct the wording to gender diverse. There are differences in that and it can be hard for us not to project onto other animals and at other times. Either way gender diversity exists all across the animal kingdom and understanding that is helpful in modern society
If someone called me an ape...I would say that's impossible...im not that coordinated....and why aren't you both eating your species specific diet? Anyway...this was absolutely fascinating.
I think we can save the idea of altruism. The deal is, we feel good helping others. But we also feel good harming others, especially out-groups or strangers. So in a moment, choosing to feel good by helping remains altruistic, given an equally viable alternative.
Agree, evolutionary pressures are on the species and group as a whole. So altruism is a positive trade because it works for the group as a whole. The argument works on the group level, not so only for one or two individuals within the species.
I get the good doc’s interest in direct observation of social animals. I care for a large pack of dogs and spend hours just watching them interact in the group. The current hierarchy is headed by two females. One is physically dominant while the other is rather tactical and nurturing. They never allow the others to relate sexually and only have sexual relations with each other. The largest, most powerful dog is a male that follows the dominant females and only dominates the other males. He stands guard during the day while the two alphas sleep and ensures the smallest/youngest members eat first.
I wonder if our choice of zero sum stratified economic goals have forged our strong demands for duality and labeling, of our place therefore value in the prestigous market pyramid??? Something I thought of while listening... thanks
I am with Dr. Frans de Waal, except on one point, his view on gender. I am a transgender woman, and I occasionally hear or read about the idea that gender is a social construct, that how we perceive our gender somehow comes from the society we live in. It is true that the society and culture we live in influences how we express our gender, as in how we behave, how we adorn ourselves, and so on. But research in fetal development and neurology provides evidence that our perception of our own gender, how we identify and see ourselves, is rooted in our brains, and is therefore biological, rather than societal.
You seem to be confusing the terms that are used. The gender expression he was talking about is, for a big part, construed by the society you grow up on in. Your own gender perception is obviously biological.
@@David34981 Listen to it again at ruclips.net/video/KDXNv2CG5EY/видео.html. He uses the word 'gender' alone, unmodified. He does not mention gender expression. He states that "sex it more the biological side of things ... gender is much more cultural. ... And gender is more determined by culture and our environment, that's also why the rules for gender change over time and from place to place". Sure, he is talking about gender expression. But by failing to make the distinction between gender expression and gender identity, he and others who make the same mistake muddy the water, and lend support to those who try to argue that gender is not inherently biological, that it is just a social construct.
Human morality is often debated as proof for god but our acts of "good and evil" can be observed in other animals. We have an edge though. The ability to communicate and discuss ideas about morality allows us to attempt to overcome some of our base animal instincts. Unfortunately it also allows some humans to invent more effective ways of being destructive. The trend has been towards a better world but I'm not convinced that this will necessarily continue.
I had a bit of a golden age in the late 90's reading Frans de Waal's Goog Natured, Matt Ridley's Origins of Virtue and Nature via Nurture, Pinker's The Blank Slate, Dawkins and Diamond . Ah, good times and cheap tobacco. I'm still reading good stuff, but not like that run. And I quit smoking.
Most humans relate to their pets, so yeah brother my pet family are all about what you said.. and more 💞 Thanks for the confirmation that I aren't stupid ☺️
Acts of altruism aren't necessarily motivated by selfishness. Often the acts are executed before any thought of a reward comes up in the actor; that may happen when an act of altruism is repeated.
I guess the best word here is believe but yes I believe that animals have language and communication. Maybe primitive to ours but successful for their evolution to survive and reproduce. And even just to chew the fat
Watch Kezia Noble and Coach Corey Wayne "newsletter" videos. You may watch Julien Himself too but he is on the Pick Up Artist side. Alpha male is a social thing not a biological thing. Same as gender and sex. Because the wolf alpha male is somewhat disproven or debunked does not mean that Humans are. You can be described as such. You are your own boss. You had plans for your future. You take care of your loved ones. Do you listen to "Your" woman? Can she say no to you (allowed to say no)? Do you lose your mind if she disagree? Can you argue with her in a calm loving way?
I like the way Dr. Waal explains this material he really knows his stuff. However at 34:44 he mentions where he thinks Freud said our concepts of god come from and he is incorrect! We got our concepts of god from a set of events witnessed by our ancient ancestors all over the Earth see the documentaries (Symbols of an Alien Sky) and (Remembering the End of the World) and I believe even Dr Waal would agree these people have it right. Seth needs to see these too!
There is no scenario I can think of when jesus made an actual sacrifice. The only thing you can sacrifice is your own self when you behave in a way, that is other than what you believe of your self. If i believe that a good father should sacrifice himself for their children and failed to do so when needed, then you can not think that you are a good father anymore.
Mostly good stuff here, but please don't continue to fall into the trap of "all or nothing" answers. Just because there is a benefit (a "high") from protecting or giving to others, doesn't mean the motive/behavior wasn't performed in a purely selfless manner. Two things can be true, regardless of which is "cause," and which is coincidental.
Thank you Seth for hosting Frans deWaal. Love that man’s work very much. ❤
world class primatologist, a coup for Seth getting him on
de Waal is such a brilliant scientist, and his work is so important for our understanding of ourselves. His research needs to be taught in every school...
The Christian nationalists would sht a brick.
Since human beings ARE apes, this interview was especially interesting. EDIT: love that you referenced Gutsick Gibbon!
Thanks for having Frans on . Good discussion of the evolution of behavior.
Its just so sad that there are people out there, a majority in fact, who cant see how wonderful it is to have chimps and bonobos as family members. Great show, though I must confess(NOT in a confessional-gave that up when i was 9) to being just a tiny bit jealous of you getting to talk with such a great biologist ,and, more importantly,great primate. Loved this.Ta for all you do.
Great interview, and I loved how you closed with the idea of feeling connected, not insulted/intimidated, by the idea of being a primate, among many other species of primates.
Perfect pronunciation of “Frans De Waal “. Great 👍
R.I.P Frans de Waal. (October 29, 1948 - March 14, 2024). We love your great work here on Earth. ❤
I remember that cucumber-grape video from ages ago... a classic! Great and humbling to see how primate-ive we really are.
very good interview and a brilliant scientist.
Thank you Seth! This was so interesting! I shared it.
Thanks so much! Great informative conversation.
Great discussion Seth & Frans, thank you, some very enlightening points of view.
A great show. Thank you both.
Wonderful show!
Really enjoyed this interview!
Thanks for this it was really informative. I loved the brief inclusion about the likely trans chimps and banobos. I’ve always suspected that was the case but it’s nice to hear from an expert
When did gender non-conformity start getting labelled transgender? And why, if gender non-conformity exists across species and is fine do the medical profession think it’s ethical to surgically “fix” it.
@@roxee57 I’m happy to correct the wording to gender diverse. There are differences in that and it can be hard for us not to project onto other animals and at other times. Either way gender diversity exists all across the animal kingdom and understanding that is helpful in modern society
This is so exciting! Thanks Seth ❤️
Wow, those bonobos have it right!
Really interesting talk.
Really enjoyed this one!
Very informative conversation. Especially about the bonobos...
Goes to show, once again, that a dirty mind is a joy forever. 😉
If someone called me an ape...I would say that's impossible...im not that coordinated....and why aren't you both eating your species specific diet? Anyway...this was absolutely fascinating.
Great interview, Seth👍
Thank you so much, this is very interesting and informative.
This was wonderfully informative. I remember reading The Naked Ape by Desmond Morris some 5o odd years ago.
I think we can save the idea of altruism. The deal is, we feel good helping others. But we also feel good harming others, especially out-groups or strangers. So in a moment, choosing to feel good by helping remains altruistic, given an equally viable alternative.
Agree, evolutionary pressures are on the species and group as a whole. So altruism is a positive trade because it works for the group as a whole. The argument works on the group level, not so only for one or two individuals within the species.
Thanks Seth for having one of my heroes, and fellow Dutchman, on..
I get the good doc’s interest in direct observation of social animals. I care for a large pack of dogs and spend hours just watching them interact in the group.
The current hierarchy is headed by two females. One is physically dominant while the other is rather tactical and nurturing. They never allow the others to relate sexually and only have sexual relations with each other.
The largest, most powerful dog is a male that follows the dominant females and only dominates the other males. He stands guard during the day while the two alphas sleep and ensures the smallest/youngest members eat first.
good score seth, my info dealer.
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Super interesting thanks.
That was SO GOOD
RIP prof de Waal. 😞
I wonder if our choice of zero sum stratified economic goals have forged our strong demands for duality and labeling, of our place therefore value in the prestigous market pyramid??? Something I thought of while listening... thanks
I am with Dr. Frans de Waal, except on one point, his view on gender. I am a transgender woman, and I occasionally hear or read about the idea that gender is a social construct, that how we perceive our gender somehow comes from the society we live in. It is true that the society and culture we live in influences how we express our gender, as in how we behave, how we adorn ourselves, and so on. But research in fetal development and neurology provides evidence that our perception of our own gender, how we identify and see ourselves, is rooted in our brains, and is therefore biological, rather than societal.
You seem to be confusing the terms that are used. The gender expression he was talking about is, for a big part, construed by the society you grow up on in. Your own gender perception is obviously biological.
@@David34981 Listen to it again at ruclips.net/video/KDXNv2CG5EY/видео.html. He uses the word 'gender' alone, unmodified. He does not mention gender expression. He states that "sex it more the biological side of things ... gender is much more cultural. ... And gender is more determined by culture and our environment, that's also why the rules for gender change over time and from place to place". Sure, he is talking about gender expression. But by failing to make the distinction between gender expression and gender identity, he and others who make the same mistake muddy the water, and lend support to those who try to argue that gender is not inherently biological, that it is just a social construct.
Human morality is often debated as proof for god but our acts of "good and evil" can be observed in other animals.
We have an edge though. The ability to communicate and discuss ideas about morality allows us to attempt to overcome some of our base animal instincts.
Unfortunately it also allows some humans to invent more effective ways of being destructive.
The trend has been towards a better world but I'm not convinced that this will necessarily continue.
Now that's a very interesting man!
I had a bit of a golden age in the late 90's reading Frans de Waal's Goog Natured, Matt Ridley's Origins of Virtue and Nature via Nurture, Pinker's The Blank Slate, Dawkins and Diamond . Ah, good times and cheap tobacco. I'm still reading good stuff, but not like that run. And I quit smoking.
In DNA testing I learned my mitochondrial line is from the Congo area, I like to think I am more gibbon related. So cool!
Dutch, nice. I'm from the Netherlands too.
Capuchin Karen, banging on the counter demanding to speak to the manager 😆 "I wanted grapes!"
Most humans relate to their pets, so yeah brother my pet family are all about what you said.. and more 💞 Thanks for the confirmation that I aren't stupid ☺️
Hi there Seth and people. Seth, have you ever listened to "in the days of the caveman" by CRASHTEST DUMMIES? 😂
So clearly sex is the answer for peace. Fu@k . I wouldn't have thought ❤️🤣
conversely we get animals wrong sometimes, and can end up in strife
Acts of altruism aren't necessarily motivated by selfishness. Often the acts are executed before any thought of a reward comes up in the actor; that may happen when an act of altruism is repeated.
😊
I guess the best word here is believe but yes I believe that animals have language and communication. Maybe primitive to ours but successful for their evolution to survive and reproduce. And even just to chew the fat
Watch Kezia Noble and Coach Corey Wayne "newsletter" videos. You may watch Julien Himself too but he is on the Pick Up Artist side.
Alpha male is a social thing not a biological thing. Same as gender and sex. Because the wolf alpha male is somewhat disproven or debunked does not mean that Humans are.
You can be described as such. You are your own boss. You had plans for your future. You take care of your loved ones. Do you listen to "Your" woman? Can she say no to you (allowed to say no)? Do you lose your mind if she disagree? Can you argue with her in a calm loving way?
I like the way Dr. Waal explains this material he really knows his stuff. However at 34:44 he mentions where he thinks Freud said our concepts of god come from and he is incorrect! We got our concepts of god from a set of events witnessed by our ancient ancestors all over the Earth see the documentaries (Symbols of an Alien Sky) and (Remembering the End of the World) and I believe even Dr Waal would agree these people have it right. Seth needs to see these too!
There is no scenario I can think of when jesus made an actual sacrifice. The only thing you can sacrifice is your own self when you behave in a way, that is other than what you believe of your self. If i believe that a good father should sacrifice himself for their children and failed to do so when needed, then you can not think that you are a good father anymore.
What have we done to the animals!
Mostly good stuff here, but please don't continue to fall into the trap of "all or nothing" answers. Just because there is a benefit (a "high") from protecting or giving to others, doesn't mean the motive/behavior wasn't performed in a purely selfless manner. Two things can be true, regardless of which is "cause," and which is coincidental.