How Do Airlines Pay For Planes Worth Hundreds Of Millions?
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- Опубликовано: 1 июн 2024
- Buying aircraft is not a cheap business. The list price of aircraft runs to tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars. Although airlines can often negotiate hefty discounts on these published prices, particularly if they’re ordering a lot at once, how on earth do they actually pay for these planes? Let’s find out.
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And there I thought they send a pilot with company credit card to pick up plane ;)
It's sort of true. Just the airline's fleet management people also come along with the pilots. To inspect the plane before delivery, and sign the wired moneybags away.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
😜😜
I was riding a 767-300 from a smaller airliner last year. And they actually used the company credit card to fuel it.
the reason i found out was that the resit printer was broken at the fuel truck, and they have to bring a other fuel truck just to print the resit. The pilot claimed that he didn´t what to buy something that expensive of the company credit card with out having a resit... Strange...A quick calculation tells me he should have picked up about €25 000 worth of fuel. Fuel is fairly expensive at that airport.
@@matsv201 actually cheaper than what you pay
I'm definitely interested in the economical backgrounds of commercial aviation. One question I was asking myself: How did the Covid-19-crisis impact the leasing companies? They must've found it difficult to lease out their planes, thus repay their loans.
Typical airplane leases are long multi year agreements, say 5+ years. So while placing new aircraft was likely challenging most airlines had to pay regardless if those aircraft were flying or not.
Generally they have still gotten their lease payments. All the global government support of the industry has allowed most to make their payments. Most indications are the leasing companies are doing just fine. They also leverage those payments in other assets to reduce their risk of non payments by certain airlines.
It's very simple: if you wanna become miljonair in aviation, start as a billionaire.
In the USA, we just gave the airlines and lessors our tax dollars. 😏 Even after the airlines execs bought back stocks for executive bonuses.
@@sparqqling 😊
Was aware of GECAS & ILFC.
Worked on GECAS owned planes in the past when changing lessees.
Retired now, no more Skydrol burns, cracked fingers. I do miss the smell of jet exhaust!
GECAS is only in Ireland? Sounds like a great company to work for
@@roshanantony64 they send out accessories like APU's when they need to. APU overhaul, repair & testing is what we did. (Phoenix, Az)
@@azmike1956 nice
@@togafly. thanks partner!
What I was hoping to find out was, how on Earth do airlines make enough money to pay for a plane that is worth way over a hundred million dollars? And that's just one plane. Airlines obviously have many planes, but the math just doesn't add up - well, my math doesn't add up.
A 737 or A320 family aircraft will set you back ~ $70 mln, roughly. If you do 1- 1.5 hour flights, it will have a service life of about 40.000 flights, which is about 8 flights a day for 14 years. That means you pay about $1750 a flight on depreciation. With 175 passengers, that's roughly $10 a ticket to buy the plane. This is of course a very rough and probably optimistic calculation, so let's say $10 - $20 dollars per ticket for short flights.
Rewards Programs make all the money for Delta/American/United. Literally billions in profit.
@@tiemen9095 - Thanks for the reply, but was that a typo? You put 40.000, as in "40". Did you mean 40,000? As in forty thousand? And when you say "roughly $10 a ticket to buy the plane", did you mean $10 of what each passenger pays for the airfare goes towards paying for the plane?
@@Boxcarphilly that was indeed a typo. I indeed meant that from my math, I'd end up with about $10 per passenger's ticket going towards buying the plane.
@@tiemen9095 - thanks for that. And what about the first part of my question, about forty point zero, or forty thousand? I'm thinking there should have been a comma in there, as in 40,000, not 40.000
How doing a video dealing with dry vs. wet leasing? I’m still not certain I understand the difference or the benefits of one over the other or who decides which lease is best the airline or the leasing company? Not to mention damp leasing
Simple Flying themselves did a great video aircraft leasing, they mentioned dry vs wet leased. Basically dry lease is just an airline borrowing an aircraft and they crew, maintain and insure it themselves. Wet lease is when the leasing airline/firm, provides all of those things, the airline just operates the aircraft. If you want to watch the video, just search “Simple Flying Aircraft leasing”, you’ll find it.
That's a very simple one. Dry lease is they are leasing just the plane. Wet lease they lease both the plane and crew. Wet leases are usually only used for a very short period to cover an immediate need for capacity.
The recent Delta situation, where they took over the 10 A359 orders from LATAM, on top of their own order book. Plus also leased four A359s from AerCap, which were previously with LATAM and Qatar goes to show how airlines can make strategic decisions based on near-term and long-term needs, such as when they abruptly retired the 777s last year and with recovery in-sight they now need backfill sooner.
Love it Simple Flying! 👍
Something I actually knew very little about, great info, great video!
Thanks for the feedback! - TB
Would be really curious to know about deprecation of aircraft - how much is there, especially relative to fluctuations in demand
There is no easy answer to that question. It varies widely based on a particular aircraft type and market conditions.
Keep it going on simple flying.
Very well 👍🔥
Thanks for the feedback! - TB
Yes Ireland has favourable tax conditions but aircraft leasing industry also started there with the creation of Guinness Peat Aviation (GPA). You have to remember prior to Aircraft leasing in mid 70s-80s airlines were largely nationalised so country governments bank rolled the aircraft orders. GPA was lead by Tony Ryan (co founder of Ryanair) employees of GPA went on to start their own leasing companies such as the big ones today AerCap, Avalon, Aircastle etc.
Really Interesting 🤔👍
Thank you always.
In the mini computer/mainframe market, the last kind of leasing arrangement mentioned, we called an LWOP, Lease With Option to Purchase.
Wow requested video is here 👍
Sale and leaseback agreements quite common nowadays.!!!.
VERY common. Some carriers like Emirates their entire fleet is financed that way.
@@johniii8147 So does Qantas.
A number of Qantas aircraft are owned by holding companies set up simply to 'own' that aircraft and lease it back to the airline. for example, VH-OQA, Qantas' first A380, is owned by QF BOC 2008-1 Pty Ltd.
@@magical_catgirl Yes, it's very common for any major carrier. There is the extreme of the middle eastern carriers that lease them all, but most others is a mix of leased vs owned.
Amazing information to know...
very useful
I've always wondered about this
This was a million dollar question and I think the explanation in this video was so clear ❤️❤️
that is very interesting, thanks.
Thanks for the feedback! - TB
Yes. Excellent video from a retired airline employee. Cheers!
Super nice subject! Thanks. Could you also maybe provide information on what airlines do lease (form of) or buy them as assets?
Again realy interesting!
Will be interesting to see a detailed video on overall business of running commercial airlines from financial point of view.
I love you guys. I’m a big fan 😀😀😀😀
thank you
Definitely into the financial side of aviation!
This was really cool. I had always wondered about this. I had a feeling a lot were lesed, but did not know about the leasing companies out there. Can you do more "business" angle videos?
A video on quantitative analysis on the airport prices of the airlines
I have a question for “Simple Flying”
Who insures the aircraft, and how much does that cost, and moreover, what is the reimbursement of a lost aircraft, is there gap insurance to cover a brand new loss?
Very interesting... I'd even like to hear more about this in detail.
What % of a fleet does an airline own vs lease?
That varies airline by airline. Some release that data some do not.
Leasing has majority. It's better for cashflow, CAPEX, OPEX, etc.
@@remetremet Just depends on the situation for an airline which is the the better option. If you're a carrier like the big 3 US, or LH, BA etc that tend to keep their aircraft upwards of 30 years years, leasing makes a lot less sense. The global split of leased vs owned is around 50%. Leasing makes more sense if you want to replace aircraft every 10-12 years. Also depends on the relative financial strength of an airline on terms they can get on purchase vs lease.
@@johniii8147 Ofcourse leasing is not cheaper (the break point is about 10-12 year for these airliners). For example LH (whole group) has 13% of aircrafts leased. Emirates, Qatar leases almost everything.
BTW: Almost no airline tends to keep aircrafts (excluding Cargo, African and South American carriers) longer that 10-15 years. This is mainly the case with airlines using their own services and luxury as an advantage and advertisement - BA, Emirates, LH, Qatar, ... Passangers of these airline won't to fly in 30 years old airplane :-D
But yes, in grand total - lease vs own will be like 50:50, but when you count PAX airlines only without ULCC and LCC, this will change in favor of lease.
@@remetremet Not true about airlines only keeping planes longer than 15 years. UA/DL/AA/BA/LH etc all have aircraft well above that range
Hope there’s a long haul ver of this topic
I think when it comes to lease vs buy, Delta has been smarter than almost any other airline. The only aircraft they lease are the 717s which SW really wanted to get rid of as they got them in the merger with Airtran, so I am sure Delta got really good terms on those, as well as a couple of planes from distressed carriers. They own the rest and get the most value out of them (explains still flying 757s)
This does lead to Delta flying some aircraft much older than other airlines, however they tend to keep them in very good condition. For example in the last few years of operation American's MD-82s tended to be in very rough shape and they seemed to let anything broken in the cabin that wouldn't ground the aircraft remain broken. Delta's MD-88s on the other hand were practically in showroom condition. I was on one of their original 752s just before its retirement a few years back and aside from some cabin tech and armrest ash trays giving away the age it was in remarkable condition.
That's not true. DL has other leased aircraft in it's fleet as well. The latest announcement on the taking over the 350 order, those will be leased aircraft.
@@jblyon2 Delta does their own maintenance, and in fact does contract maintenance for other airlines as well.
@@scpatl4now Some of the maintenance they do. Much of it is contracted out. They contract out most of the heavy maintenance of the airframes. The contact maintenance is for mostly engines.They also contract out widebody interior retrofits to China.
Many airlines have a bank account linked to aerospace company like Boeing and Airbus
Aircraft leasing is very intresting but complicated topic. Hundreds of different types of leases. At PIA we had 8 finance lease brand new 777s delivered between 2003 to 2008. These were 3 different variants of 777s i.e. 200 ER / 200 LR and 300 ER. Usually narrow body finance lease are for 8 years while wide body aircraft have tenure of 12 years. With spare engines at 8 years lease. To get a theoratical overview of aircraft financing read IATA Hand book on aircraft financing consisting of 2 volumes written by Donald H Bunker.
Operating lease on the other hand are usually straight line rental payments with option to purchase at specified times in future with lots of ifs and buts! These ifs & buts, if planned accurately can be source of superb value for aircraft acquisition.
US Exim / ECAs in Europe play a significant role in cementing these deals if aircraft are being acquired on finance lease.
PIA also acquired 7 ATR 42 in 2007 on finance lease
In parallel we had ilfc leasing brand new 777-200ER on operating lease as well.
It is a mix & match combination between finance & operating lease depending on your expected future cash inflows / out flows.
Cool
What is typical return on investment for an airline or an aircraft leasing company?
It's no brainer, the world lives on credit.
The financing aircraft I find extremely interesting the way the airline industry works as a whole
Interesting
We had at least two local airlines in Hawaii that their aircraft and their engines separately. Does anyone know how common this practice is?
Some airlines actually purchase through some anes through their own profits but only big carriers do that
It would be pretty cool if you guys did a video on what airlines are actually paying for these planes.
Thanks for the feedback! - TB
Great now I know how to buy an A320
ok, i thought that they are fully owned by the airline companies coz i really wonder how will they recover the massive investment in buying planes... so leasing is a better option
There are some rich big airlines such as Emirates American United airlines air France british airways etc which actually buy planes from their own money but this case only happens with good sate owned carriers or the carriers which have billions of dollars
3:14 Damn that girl has a beak.
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
How can airplane manufacturers afford to build planes that cost billions to launch? The same way airlines afford to buy them in the first place. Creative accounting and a lot of financing. Fudging government and military contracts. Vendor risk sharing. Airlines can enjoy a vast array of accounting tricks to write off millions of expenses and local community kickbacks. They also fly the planes up to 18 hours a day.
Actually the consumer pays for the airplane...all be it in very small increments.
Interested 😂
As an aircraft engineer, a few times I’ve picked up (used) aircraft from a storage place in the desert and flew it with the pilots to central Africa. As a technician I was responsible to technical condition of the aircraft and it was my responsibility to verify if the owner was about to pay the “right” amount of money for the used aircraft. Once I approved, the new owner payed the aircraft cash, literary suitcases full of dollar bills showed up. Incredible but it still happens…
Why central Africa though??
a few years ago, a middle eastern prince showed up at boeing to pick up his new plane. with suitcases full of cash. It did not go over very well.
which aircraft was that
@@osasunaitor i will ask the company why they are based in central Africa. Will get back to you soon
*Me, watching this video so I can learn something about my airplane caravan conversion dream:* Interesting, so how do I set up an unsecured loan?
how are they able to account for the huge depreciation of quad jets losing most of its value within a little over a decade? Doesn't seem like the monthly payment to the lessor companies can pay off that huge depreciation for the quad jets.
Well, airline aircraft often are pressed into service lives of decades, eventually making it up. The leasing companies might not have much to sell by then but the leasing can keep right on while the aircraft keeps on getting so many people at a time from A to B, the vast majority of whom doesn't care how old the aircraft is. We don't usually hear of old airline aircraft, but that's because nobody talks about that unless there is a mishap tied to something badly serviced many years ago or that has worn out over a long, long time.
Smaller name airlines will also use those older planes a lot.
I thought every airline starts in a cessna and they upgrade their planes as they get more and more money
It would be fun if pilot make an announcement that we need to land due to Airline failed to make the due payment this month and just exceeded last date of EMI.
No they don't do it that way. But their have been aircraft that were repossessed after landing.
Send me a link i want to lease 2 [777] air plane
I wonder, if the EU get their way and take control of things like corporation tax, and other business taxes across all member states, Ireland will still be such a hub for leasing companies? Or will they jump ship to non-EU countries because they will be forced to pay more in taxes, so unable to pass on the lesser leasing costs to the airline customer.
Airlines issue corporate bonds to pay for their Capex. Going to market is a common way to raise capital
That is but one of many ways. Actually most of the financing is not through bonds ( that would be airports) for aircraft. Very complex financial arrangements that are securities based, which is very different from bonds.
So do they write out a check, simply put or do it through the banks.
It's typically done via wire transfer. The manufacturer doesn't hand over the aircraft in most cases until that transfer is received.
@@johniii8147 hi thanks. I don't really understand wire transfer, but thanks.
@@alexanderhall4281 It's a electronic bank to bank transfer of funds with no holds on the availability of funds.
@@johniii8147 thanks I get it now.
The book of revelations has been opened
Didn’t Boeing end production of the 737ng?
Yes, but they are still available to lease or purchase on the open market.
I thought you were going to cover how they make a payment, like do they whip out their credit car or write a check?
until very recently, the airlines did show up with a checkbook. It is all done with computer transfer now in a secure room.
@@mld3pmtsu It's nothing recent. It's been handled by wire transfer of funds for decades now.
Neither in most cases. The funds are transferred directly with a wire transfer from bank to bank. You don't put such large amounts on either a credit card or wright a check.
Fun fact
Michael o Leary just shows up with a pot of gold!
Not really. Boeing just recently sent him packing because their offer was too low. Airbus won't deal with him.
No views, 12 likes, 2 comments yet only 1 comment seen…..
RUclips… Ya good
Lol
American Express Black card.
👍
Long leases
I think you missed A220 it's cheapest aircraft Airbus is offering
Tap.
BONDS!!
Isn't the A220 cheaper than the A318?!
That would depend on the deal negotiated with the airline/lessor. The 318 isn't sold anymore anyway since it sold so few. Other than AF, they have already been retired and scraped out.
@@johniii8147 thanks for the response, but none of that answers my question. They presented a list of the cheapest and most expensive planes (list prices). My question is if indeed A318 is/was the cheapest from Airbus, as I thought the A220 series would be (theoretically) cheaper.
@@CriticalRider It's irrelevant. The 318 was out of the picture before the 220 was as an option. And it's not about just "price". There are a lot of factors that go into a buying decision. The 318 failed because it was too high cost to operate since it was too heavy relatively to capacity. Seat mile costs were too high.
@@johniii8147 I would like you (or someone else) to answer my question, instead of sharing your opinion.
@@CriticalRider It's the facts. Google. You can find the answers to your questions if you don't believe me
Pause 0:00
"How do airlines pay for planes worth hundreds of millions?"
My guess is that they use money, but not actual physical money, like dollar bills, but modern digital money.
For the question where do they get the money from, that is a totally different question.
My guess is that they do exactly what everyone else do when they buy something they don´t have up front cash for, they levy the value of the item to grant them a loan the the extent of the value of the item.
Anyway... do you think $400M is a lot for a aircraft? try lending money for PPP infrastructure. Then the number end with a B in stead of an M. I seen numbers in the range of up to and over $50B
🧐
my wonder is how they actually get enough money to buy the planes, like if you were to start one.
Still never said how much they end up paying or the interest.
Fiat currency- 🙄
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11th comment
13 th Comment
First
Nope
@@izzathaikal7526 fine I am third
@@LGMGHWGNG 4th
Ah, but how they really pay them? Do they write a cheque ? Or wire the money in advance? Or just use their credit card?
No & no.
Bonds
According to Boeing, Delta loves to receive free A220s from Airbus. Such jealousy
How many free 737 maxs has boeing given away to clear their backlog and try to repair their reputation?
Thier is a lot missing in this airframe purchases video.. the most glaring is this, Airbus is very slimy and cruddy because they are a consortiums of governments that can subsidize the true cost of an assembly in a yearly budget . Boeing pointed this out many years ago . Second the purchase price is really decided on what tax advantages the airline is going after. Note airframes and engines are purchased separately..this helps to reduce cost ..
Boeing does the same thing just in different ways. And not it's not all about tax advantages. Much more complicated than that one factor. Look up how much the US Import-Export program fiances or subsidizes.
Why does a lot of american airlines use airbus, while a lot of european airlines use boeing. Isn’t it strange?
The import-export bank in the US offers great terms on Boeing to international carriers. With the exception of Southwest, foreign carriers get the best deals on Boeing
@@CreightonDuke84 oooh. But it is still strange. Why do they choose to give money to another country. I think government should think about that as they loose really a lot of money
It's not strange at all. Airline's make decisions on which to purchase for a variety of reason. The deal they can get, fleet commonalty, the specific missions an aircraft is needed for, delivery availability, aircraft craft performance etc etc. Most airline's don't take a nationalist view of their fleet purchases. It's also a global business with parts from all around the world.
@@johniii8147 it would be understandable if only american airlines buy from airbus, but at the same time european ones buy from boeing. Why do these companies can provide some discounts for airlines on the other side of the ocean, but can’t give the same to your neighbors. That was a question
@@nazariimalakhivskyi6118 Stop being so nationalist. It's a complicated business with a lot of variables in purchase decisions. India and China yes there is pressure to purchase locally, but in capitalist economies it's a lot more about making the right choice that's best for your business, regardless of origin of where it's produced. All of the major international carriers have a mixture of Airbus and Boeing. It's healthy competition between the two that drives down prices and improves the performance of the aircraft to keep up with each other.