Why didn't the Empire use X-Wings? (...and should they have?)
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- Why didn't the Empire use X-Wings, the Rebel starfighters which dominated in space battles? We'll cover that and more on today's Star Wars Legends lore video!
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Hello
Well Eck there almost was Imperial x wings. In Star Wars x wing I had to disable and capture hyjacked ones
Nice I got some beer earlier hoping so.
Query: which '1 time out of 10' would you take a Tie Fighter over a T-65?
Yay
Thrawn: our space ships are crap and everything we build has a self destruct or a weak spot
palpatine: sounds.... good
If this isn't the best ship design out there, I don't know what is.
X-Wing: I'm the top starfighter
Tarkin Doctrine: I'm about to start this man's whole career. (Against me)
Start this man’s whole career***
The Tie Defender passes trought here and....
x-wing: *NO U*
Thrawn: *SIGH*
Defender goes by, everyone asks where the rebels went. Thrawn "what rebels, I only found garbage."
Tie Fighters are just cheaper and more economical. Makes sense for a massive armed force with nearly unlimited recourses (material or otherwise) to just make a crap ton of cheap but somewhat effective starfighter. No fuel, not much material or production cost, you get the idea. Simple and effective.
Edit: To all those who commented on this message, you fellas really offered some valid points and got an interesting conversation going. Kudos to you all.
Well simple yes?
Effective? Nah. More than one time , we see x wings just dominating and coming out with kill ratios of 20 to 1 even way higher.
The tie defender and maybe modified tie interceptors are the only true good ties. But the normal tie is honestly a piece of shit
Short term perhaps, but long term the logistics aren't as clear. It takes time and money to train pilots, you also have to think about replacement parts due to wear and upgrades when necessary. The tie pilots need suits to survive the vacuum of space which costs money, and you need a ship to carry the tie to battle because they lack a hyper drive. So the tie rarely is able to act independently, demanding a larger ship when a squadron may be all that is necessary to deploy.
Logistically imo you would want a versatile star fighter that is very good at a multitude of tasks allowing it to be effective if deployed alone or in a large attack force. The x wing may not be the fastest, but it is fast. It may not have the strongest or most numerous arsenal, but it does have 4 independent laser cannons with different firing modes and a proton torpedo launcher. It may not have the toughest armor or shields, but it does have them while maintaining a sleek and hard to hit target profile. An x wing in service for 25 years with minor maintenance and upgrades will be cheaper than 5 ties in that time and needing a new pilot for each.
Very true, logically it’s a waste, but according to certain material the tie interceptor was intended to replace the standard tie. Guess old palpating had his priorities, and making a better fighter was NOT one of them. Sometimes the leaders can be blamed. And give the interceptor some slack. It was pretty good. Just slap on some shields and boom.
I do agree, having tie fighters are just better cost wise, just because of no real maintenance cost and it's cheapness. though cheapness isn't inherently a bad thing, For example The tie fighter fills a good role in maneuverability and speed. adding a hyper drive and shielding on it would only really serve to slow it down, and aren't majority of Tie pilots really good because of this weakness? without shields, they have to be really skilled or experienced to survive and it's speed and maneuverability helps this.
they also work well with fear tactics i feel like, if you're on the ground or even in a lesser fighter then the X wings, like a Y wing (in terms of star fighter combat), it would probably make you terrified to see them. at least that is what i think
also just because some X wing pilots can get a kill ratio of 20 to 1, doesn't mean every single X wing will see the same results (both in even better or worse ways) because you can run into elite Tie fighter squadrons, like the 181st, and elite X wing squadrons, like Rouge squadron.
and when you do see somethings like Surosuub praybirds replace the standard ties, in legends, they are around the same area of effectiveness, but still would be more expensive then ties to purchase from Sorosuub, but without any more tie production this is what they had to turn to.
also The empire didn't always just used average ties, they also had all the other varients being used at some point, albeit more rarely, such as
notably: Tie Hunters, Tie defenders and Tie Interceptors
and others such as: Tie avengers, Tie Phantoms, Tie Raptors, and other ties that are less notable.
they also rarely used Lancer frigates sometimes for anti fighter, but it was pretty rare.
@@marineduard6901 I personally disagree, but we are all entitled to our opinions. I believe Ties were effective, just not as effective in various situations as the X Wing would be.
The Rebellion saw the X-Wing in a similar way that us Brits see the Spitfire, although the Bf-109 was a bloody fine aircraft also.
yh the standard tie was like the Messerschmitt ME-109 and the tie interceptor is like the Messerschmitt ME-262
@@FranzFerdinandVIII Id argue that the TIEs emphasis on offensive potency and agility over pilot survivability/armor would put it closer to the Mitsubishi A6M 'Zero' fighter - indeed the introduction of the Xwing wouldve been akin to the Zero's disastrous encounters with Vought F4U Corsairs and Grumman F6F Hellcats when theyd previously enjoyed superiority over the previous generation F4F's and Brewster Buffaloes.
Brexit means brexit
@@woodywood7766 Theresa May I know it’s you, go back to your wheat.
@@leonhowe1299ummm no comment?
As someone with hundreds of hours sunk in the X-wing series of flight sims...
The Interceptor is widely considered a better ship than the X-wing in player hands just out of it's sheer evasive performance and matching laser firepower.
The X-Wing may be able to take 3 times the beating an Interceptor would, but in any 1v1, the Interceptor's agility makes it virtually indestructible. No shields. All guts.
Kyle Katarn said it best.
"Your generic TIE grunt is just plain suicidal. And the TIE Defender jockey is bloodthirsty. But the TIE Interceptor pilot, he's suicidal and bloodthirsty. When you see a squad of those maniacs flying your way, you'd better hope your hyperdrive is operational."
It’s the Zero vs Wildcat dilemma. And when they faced each other in real life, the Wildcats got waxed until the Thach weave was developed.
interestingly, Star Wars has its own Thach weave called the Corellian slip. It’s a different, and imo, inferior mechanic, but it is still designed to use squad tactics to overcome more maneuverable foes
You can see them use the Corellian slip at the BoY in New Hope
I wish someone would just re-release X-Wing and Tie Fighter with modern graphics and just take my money already.
Also why is no one talking about the Alpha-class Gunboats? Loads of Missiles, Shields, Hyper-drive, two laser cannons and two ion cannons it can take down shields as fast as a X-Wing.
@@VVeremoose quite interestingly the effectiveness of the thatch weave was also probably due to the lack of radios on the zero, allowing the americans to have an edge in teamwork. Zero pilots ripped the radios out since they didnt really seem to work, and they'd rather have a little more maneuverability and range than a 80kg box that only produced static 98% of the time. Firstly, the radios weren't electrically insulated from the engine which produced moderate amounts of static. And secondly, fluctuations in the earth's magnetic field produced a spot of bad radio frequency interference over the pacific theatre in the early-mid 40s. These 2 factors combined and their radios only ever gave static unless near a powerful ground station. The insulation problem was fixed quite quickly, but trust in the radios had already been broken and everyone was ripping out the radios as standard procedure by this stage. Notably the americans noticed a drop in effective radio range from 300km to ~80km between the european theatre and the pacific due to the magnetic field anomaly
“Quantity has a quality all its own.”
― Joseph Stalin
Only works when you order not one step back. And have unlimited vodka
@@daltonlocklear3399 execute order 227
@@unknownalsounknown4238 execute order 27 million soldiers dead.
Probably for fear factor and for overwhelming numbers, they choose the tie and they didnt give a rat's ass about quality.
Biggest mistake they ever made
When you have an entire empire at your disposal, it is easier to revert to throwing soldiers and craft into pure attritional combat. That's not to say that you don't get elite combatants - see for instance the Death Troopers - but developing and training elite fighters takes resources, and they're hard to argue for when you have the option of training entire squads and overwhelming an enemy with numbers.
For overwhelming the enemy with bigger numbers i would have used the V-Wing Republic's interceptor.
It had shields so it wolud have been better in quality against the X-Wing
@@sasukesarutobi3862 yeah I get you but like still they are a massive fucking empire.
They could have easily not only accepted the x Wing but also make superior versions of it and put even better pilots than the rebels in charge and BAM.
Complete air and space superiority
I disagree, the empire was working on many quality fighters during the GCW, the TIE fighter was just an older fighter but very good for defending against starfighter attacks from other vessels, bot for attacking larger ships
I remember Legends having like, multiple stories about the "Origin" of the X-wing. Some about it's design, some about how the Rebels acquired them. All of it implied the founding of the X-wing was an important moment forming the Rebel Alliance.
Canon seems to have suspiciously left that very bare, and I'm curious why that is.
Because it is irrelevant and Legends already cover that.
And because disney "cannon" is all garbage. 😂
Empire at War covers the theft of the X-Wing
Probably haven’t gotten around to it yet is all.
Because Disney "canon" isn't interested in any form of world building. At least, not from the perspective of the films. I don't know what's been written and/or explained in books and comics, but the films just seemed like a mish-mash of stuff.
There's also an element of paranoia for the Empire. Would imperial pilots be more likely to defect if they had hyperspace-capable fighters? By limiting the fighters to operating from a mothership it made defection essentially impossible. This would be doubly important in order to restrict the rebellion's supply of trained pilots - losing potentially large numbers of trained pilots to the rebellion where they could be given more capable fighters would be stategically unsound.
The empire had a huuuge number of systems to guard and a huge number of people to get into starfighters. They used cheap fighters to keep money to put in other projects like:
- Experimental fighters like the phantom or X1
- huge space ships like star destroyers and super star destroyers
- the 2 Huge space Balls they built had surely cost a bit of credits too
Also with a tie fighter you cleared out your rows of bad pilots , since you were really left with your piloting skills in a tie fighter, so they could check wich pilots are the best to be used as pilots in the experimental fighters.
Also you could be pretty sure that returning pilots are loyal to the empire and ready to die for it, so they wont give any of the experimental fighters into the hands of the enemy.
Without a hyperdrive traitors to the empire could not escape when panicing in the heat of their first fight, you have squadron leaders that watch every step and even if you can fly away from the main battle, theres still star destroyers aiming for you. So the battles for the pilots were "win or die" surely motivating them.
If numbers and cost were an issue, Empire would have used Vulture. It didn't. So I guess Palps had simply fried his own brain in confrontations with Mace and Yoda.
TheArklyte droids weren’t really an option, people were terrified of the legions of battle droids in the clone wars, if they used vultures then they weren’t any better than the cis, they needed organic fighters
@@tylerbell8957 which they failed to provide as both Republic and Empire were still using billions of droids in everyday life and Empire was producing and deploying battledroids. Yeah, they surely couldn't do that under ethical and propaganda reasons, hence why they did it anyway:\
@@tylerbell8957 "droids weren’t really an option, people were terrified of the legions of battle droids in the clone wars"
Yes, but when has the Empire given a single solitary fuck about public opinion?
Good point on the defection scenario with the Imperial fighters. No hyperdrive kept them on a short leash until they were sure of their loyalty.
So it's like how the Zero was the best fighter in early WW2, but the Allies never copied despite capturing several intact enough to fly.
Instead they designed the Hellcat specifically to counter the Zero.
good ol' Grumman
Lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning...
and its a pretty good comparison because the Zero was a pretty bare bones fighter which was part in what made it so fast they took a ton of safety features out to make it lighter a lot like how when you look at it the Tie Fighter is a bare bones fighter
“Zero Killer!”
@@noble_hermit2133 The Zero was really no faster than its contemporaries. In reality, it was VERY maneuverable due to having no armor. It's a very good analog for the TIE fighter.
The Tarkin Doctrine was honestly one of the worst things to happen to the Empire.
if thrawn was in control the rebel leaders would've been destroyed 2 years before the empire was formed
Well it was more of a political than a military tactic.
Tactical superiority isn’t sufficient for the Empire. They aren’t just battling rebels, they’re battling an omnipresent energy field with a hate boner for the Emperor, so it gives said rebels plot armor. They need overwhelming force to keep the rebels from rebelling in the first place, because if they keep rebelling they’re going to win eventually.
I find it funny how people who hate the Tarkin Doctrine think Thrawn would have been better, but even his brilliance was no match for the rebel’s bullshit luck.
Well it was a retcon to basically explain all the bad or impractical decisions the empire made. All the movie stuff that looked cool but was impractical.
Honestly just strap a sheild onto a tie intercepter and done maybe even add a torpedo launcher, now ya have a rebel killing machine.
Excellent vid, Eck. The Empire actually introduced the TIE Hunter, in Legends anyway, to combat the X-Wing.
Everyone talks about the Defender, but the Hunter was a real counter/imitation of the X-wing.
It could be dangerous to have a bunch of the same fighters shooting at each other
Typically in advanced fighters, you'd have IFF systems (Identify Friend or Foe) that use various signals for identification, including transponder signals and various other codes. While this isn't foolproof (how many times have we seen people in the films faking credentials to sneak into somewhere), visual identification probably wouldn't be that easy with fast-moving craft fighting at a distance from one another.
If our history tells us anything, it doesn't even need to be be the exact same craft to make a fatal mistake. Japanese WWII ace Saburo Sakai once mistook a USN Dauntless dive bomber for a Wildcat fighter plane from afar and was met with a rear turrent when he lined up behind for a seemingly easy kill. He survived but lost sight in his right eye.
Just like two armies using the same color scheme......FUCK WHOS THE ENEMY?!?!
@@johnsalvi3870 they could just paint a symbol onto their x wings
@@josh-kg1rb That's never good enough especially with changes in light. Red dots in insignias usually become targets. In the Star Wars universe what if your target and an ally are in the shadow of a planet? The insignia won't be readily differentiable.
Well, maybe the empire loved the x wing so much that the death star exploded cause its just a massive waste of attention
eck is such a good guy, a 20 or 30 second intro instead of a 3 minute intro
I think you got Republic mixed with Empire. “After the Empire became the Empire”
First galactic imperial empire
Empires Imperial empire
"spot the difference between this picture and this picture"
him (cause no way in hell am i spelling his name): "they're the same picture"
I think he was just speaking euphemistically there... like saying "after the Empire became what it was"... but I can understand the confusion, grammatically either interpretation could be correct
"Why didn't the Empire use X-Wings?" was an amazing video like so many others but a brief point Eckhart made in it got me thinking. He said "Proton Torpedoes and other ordinance is still useful against star fighters in battle." I think an overwhelming barrage of torpedoes fired upon small capital ships and star fighters fits within The Empires Navel Doctrine. My question is: are there examples of The Empire using this in Legends or were most ships in the Star Wars universe not fitted with a large number of torpedo tubes? #askeck
Also the #ask eck question from that video was really interesting, I had no idea and had never thought about it before
The Empire definitely did find the overwhelming warhead barrage appealing. At the most basic level, that's what the TIE Bomber was for: cheap, unshielded bombers that could rain down huge numbers of proton torpedoes on Rebel capital ships. The TIE Bomber could hold either 8 or 12 torpedoes (depending on the source), as much or more than any Rebel starfighter until the development of the B-Wing.
Other examples of that idea are aren't commonly seen outside of the respective games that introduced them:
- _TIE Fighter: Forces of Corruption_ introduced the missile boat, which had a pea-shooter laser cannon but could carry a whopping 80 concussion missiles (or 40 missiles and 30 torpedoes) which basically became its primary weapon, even for dogfighting. In universe, Palpatine saw its potential theft by the Rebels as too great a risk, so he recalled the design, planning to rerelease it after the Rebels were defeated.
- _X-Wing Alliance_ had a storyline about an experimental TIE project developing a number of pilotless drone TIEs, including one that was basically a TIE Interceptor with huge missile launchers as its only armament. The Alliance destroyed the project before it could enter main production.
- _Empire at War_ introduced the broadside cruiser, which was essentially long-range missile artillery, slow but powerful. It never appeared elsewhere.
-A very early Star Wars tabletop RPG introduced the Torpedo Sphere, sort of a mini Death Star that instead of shooting a giant laser could shoot 500 proton torpedoes at once to try to overwhelm a planetary shield. It's a totally bonkers idea, which is why it was never seen elsewhere, though it did get a mention in _Children of the Jedi_ .
@@AGA-1942, the Victory-Class Star Destroyer was a capital-sized missile boat. It could lay down huge barrages of concussion missiles on multiple targets. Now, concussion missiles don't have the firepower of proton torpedoes, but with enough of them you could punch through a target's shields.
It's been shown via the X-Wing books that even with X-Wings you need almost a whole squadron of 12 X-Wings firing twin-linked protons onto a narrow target area to punch through Star Destroyer shields. Follow-up waves would do the hull damage.
You could do the same with concussion missiles, though it'd take longer.
Thank you for the responses guys, this was very informative. I had forgotten about the Victory Star Destroyers torpedo capabilities but Im still curious about any Star Destroyers with similar capabilities. I'm not sure how the speed of a torpedo would compare to the average ship a Star Destroyer is hunting or how the range and accuracy of a torpedo would compare to a turbo laser but my assumption is that the torpedoes are similar to today's missiles meaning that they are faster than the whatever they are chasing and (considering the star wars universe has droids) the torpedoes should have an incredibly massive range and or could adapt to a changing target. Am I off base on my assumptions and if so I'd love to at least learn the in universe reason as to why torpedoes are slower than star ships or fighters.
benny chesney, the Victory-Class Mark One only had concussion missile tubes, not proton torpedoes.
@@dparky1627 my bad, im using torpedoes as a general term. When I say "torpedo" I am referring to any thrust driven warhead or ordinance. Something that is launched from a ship which has the capability to track a target (for example a capital ship or star fighter) and detonate sometime either before, during or after impact with said target
I would say for the same reason they rid themselves of great ships like the Venator Class and AT-TE. They don't quite fit the intimidating look and are symbols of particular groups whose ideas don't align with the New Order. Also wouldn't it be easier for Rebel forces to reuse Imperial tech seeing as how they already had experience with it?
The TIE Hunter was the closest equivalent I've ever seen to the X-Wing.
In fact, as I understand it, the Hunter was created in direct response to the X-Wing, specifically to counter it in every way
Glad someone brought it up! The Hunter was effectively an X-wing in a TIE shell.
What about that fighter that the Republic used? The X-Wing is an evolution of it
And the irony was it was actually better, as it had the planiform (wing configuration) of an X-Wing, the armament of a Y-wing, A speed higher than the a wing, and moderate deflector shields.
The tie is like a cloud car,1 of them is nothing, thousands of them, now that's a problem
That was actually the point. They were swarm fighters.
@@Eric-ch6gq And they attacked in waves and squads. Most rebels would 1v1 or 2v1. The imperials would have done 5v1 or 3 waves of 5v1.
@@Eric-ch6gq laughs in marauder cruiser.
Thats... the whole point of TIE fighters...
@@OrDuneStudios ah... I see you are an Empire at War fan...
I remember reading this one star wars books (it was somewhat of an RPG sort of thing) were the Empire did use X-Wings to stage a Rebel attack after the first Death Star's destruction.
Also in the Old Republic MMO there's a whole quest line where you are doing tasks for Coruscant's senator.
Like the A-280, the Empire went cheap on the deal trying to stiff Incom.
How do you think the galaxy would be different if the defender was mass produced? #Askeck
They’d get smacked because they rely on star fighter combat and hit and run against the inferior tie fighter
Oof.
There never could have been enough to matter.
You all know that most of the rebels greatest engineers, commanders, aces, and pilots come from the ranks of the Empire. You all don't think that some of them would have some knowledge on the defender's strengths and weaknesses and come up with ways to exploit, counter, and match what they know?
Marrqi7 wini even if they did, it comes down to the pilot, and rebels relied on technology mainly, then skill. Imperial pilots was the opposite, the defender brought technology to the game, and the pilots already had the skills the rebels lacked
In the old game Rebellion, TIE and TIE Interceptor Squadrons cost like 3 refined materials each. X-Wing Squadrons cost 8 refined materials. TIE Defender Squadrons cost 10 refined materials.
I like the TIE-Interceptor, that's my favorite
the Tie Defender would like a word with you. :)
*shoots down both the Interceptor and the Defender*
@@merafirewing6591 Thrawn: So be it, for I am the inevitable
X wing or any good fighter in significant numbers: Tarkin Doctrine: allow me to introduce myself
Another interesting vid you've did, Ecks.
Really liked and enjoyed watching this.
Stay safe out there and stay AWESOME.
A few years ago, I got back into the habit of watching RUclips, and being a Star Wars fan, I soon discovered your channel and quickly became a fan. I love the content you post. It's thanks to you that I learned what Halo is and other sci-fi titles and was introduced to one of the most nostalgia-inducing and relaxing melodies I ever heard. Thank you for expanding my Star Wars nerd knowledge and broadening my horizon! I'm proud to be a subscriber!
A comparison of the X-wing vs Tie Defender would be interesting.
Mmm I think it's kind of unfair because although the x wing is one the best Starfighters, the tie defender it's pretty pretty broken
At least after playing the DOS game TIE Fighter for a long time, I'm inclined to think that X-Wings are actually at least a bit over-rated, at least as a dogfighter. A "sufficiently skilled" pilot in even a TIE Fighter (never mind an Interceptor or even more advanced, more maneuverable fighters like the Defender) like you need to become in that game can easily outmaneuver an X-Wing and stay on its tail.
At that point, so what about the shields? That just means it takes longer to shoot down the X-Wing. The shields are practically a non-issue in at least one-on-one dogfights if the shielded craft can't get the enemy off its vulnerable 6 o'clock.
I think it's about the same in real-life dogfighting too, the best way to not die is to not get shot at and particularly, not letting the enemy get at your most vulnerable position, right behind you.
In that TIE Fighter game, X-Wings practically become a non-threat after you get access to TIE Interceptors and your first shielded craft, even the Assault Gunboat which is kinda similar to a Y-Wing in maneuverability and weapons. The main exceptions are X-Wings in later missions that start using advanced concussion missiles with crazy homing ability, but still, once you get behind one, one of those X-Wings is basically still cannon fodder that can't really maneuver to save its life.
At a certain point in that game, you realize that your greatest threats and the most annoying enemies to shoot down _are_ the most maneuverable fighters. For the Rebels, the A-Wings, and otherwise your actual biggest nemeses, the TIE Avengers and Defenders.
skilled pilot can easily destroy 6-10 X-wings. Skilled pilot on x-wing need to be really lucky to survive 1 on 1 with defender and
What has four laser-cannons, a warhead launcher, a shield system, a hyperdrive, and a perfect balance between firepower, defensive power and speed?
Why a TIE Advanced/Avenger, of course!
And that is it really. The Empire DID use an X-wing in all but name, they even one up-ed it and made the TIE Defender, the best starfighter ever made. But it was all too little, too late.
Should the Empire have built the X-Wing?
Short Answer: Yes
Long Answer: Yes, they absolutely should have, and this is one of the biggest pieces of evidence that the Empire wasn't in a position to fight the Yuuzhan Vong
Tbh, the Empire was more ready than the New Republic, Palpatine literally build the Death Star for the purpose of destroy the World Ship which if he did, the Yuuzhan Vong would probably have been obliterated before taking 1/4 of the galaxy
And there's also that the Empire was ready to sacrifice how many soldiers it was necessary to secure the galaxy and maintain it's power
I'm gonna say, the Empire wasn't the best, but they could handle the Yuuzhan Vong much easier than the NR
Based on A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, I'd say TIE Fighters were better than X Wings at dogfighting but lacked the bombing capabilities. They're interceptors, and based on those two movies, they were amazing at their role.
Facts bro like people forget how X wings still got slaughtered by tie fighters
This. Xwing only became a good fighter in xwing game. It had no shields in the movies 💁♂️
We love eck
Still waiting on my movie.....
F
If only the empire had tie defenders and it was mass produced than the empire maybe would have had a chance if I’m wrong feel free to correct me
Lol no. A lot of Ties squads could have been produced with the cost of a single Tie Defender
If i were the empire i would have used some elite squads of Tie D
Max - and1 yeah than the alliance and their ships at the battle of Endor would be so screwed
The A-Wing had little trouble with the TIE Defender or any other TIE. At least before Disney changed it.
@@dat581 at least in eaw remake the Tie D is much better than the Rz41 A-Wing
The TIE hunter was literally a imperial X-Wing
So was the TIE Avenger, the production model of the TIE Advanced.
Good points... but have you heard the tragedy of Darth Plageuis the wise?
Yes
I think there’s several big reasons a TIE would be preferable to an X-Wing (if you’re a massive government with no limit on manpower, that is; not as an individual pilot): TIEs are cheaper, faster (or the same speed), more maneuverable, and their lasers are strong. Their shape and lasers are more effective than an X-Wing’s (X-Wings need to adjust the laser arc in order to shoot at something). I’d rather have more effective pilots (which is how it was) in these easily produced and more effective starfighters than fewer fighters and worse pilots.
In the campaign of Empire at War, one of your misions as the rebellions is to steal 4 T-65 X-wings fron an Imperial base in Fresia, once you do it, the Allience use them to replace their old Z-95 starfighters, so the Empire did had the prototypes but not thier plans, plus the rebellion takes away the prototypes, the plans and the cientists that were being sent to Kessel.
Your point about how widely Imperial forces had to be spread got me thinking. The Empire needs to have countless fighters to defend every system and for every naval group. The requirements become similar to police interceptors. It doesn't need to be great, just good enough to deal with the majority of the population. It also has to be cheap to buy and run. The TIE excelled at the second and fell short on the first. I think if they went for something closer to the Interceptor things may have gone much differently.
I don't know why I clicked on this video. I have read so much Star Wars and seen so many Ekhartsladder videos that I KNEW the answer already, and yet I still listened to the video while driving.
There's something interesting I noticed it's that the more advanced a tie is the more it kinda looks like an xwing
...Weren’t they going to before they got stolen?
Yes and no, when the Empire moved to nationalize the company, the entire design team defected to the Alliance. The team hid prototypes on the planet Fresia, which then the Rebels took.
@@Tuskin38 the plans were deleted from the computers as well so the only people that had the plans were the design team.
In the actual Disney canon: yes. But politics interfered and Sienar Systems was in favor. Then the designs would have gathered dust were it not for engineers of the Rebellion who adapted and advanced the designs.
By the Galactic Alliance era, Coruscant did have a Senator, his name was Fost Bramsin
and he was part of the Lecersen conspiracy. Late legends got weird on giving every single named planet a senator (Tatooine also gets one in FOTJ). Great video as always!
The interceptor is my favorite tie design but it was outmatched by the A-wing. The Defender was the best response to all of it and should have been looked at more. Dont want to use disney canon because they dint do well with Thrawn, but I could see it being his idea and should have been taken more seriously as a strike fighter.
I don't know if it is a new microphone but the sound sounds much better and i love it
In a dictatorship, you definitely don't want to give all your fighter pilots hyperdrives, because far too many would defect. I would say the better Imperial counterpart to the X-Wing is the Assault Gunboat. The Assault Gunboat is about as maneuverable (slightly less) as an X-Wing, it's got shields, it's got a tough hull (a bit tougher), it has a warhead launcher, it has a hyperdrive, etc.. Basically, the XG-1 Assault Gunboat is a long-ranging, multirole craft, just like the X-Wing. The Empire didn't really purchase that many, but at one point, standard ISDs were issued 5 of them.
It definitely made sense for the Empire to produce a new starfighter i.e. Tie Fighter due to cost and mass production reasons so they could scale up quickly to keep a military presence across the galaxy. Enjoyed the video as always 👍
hey
I recall from the old Star Wars pen and paper RPG, that X-wings cost a lot more than a tie fighter. Like 5 or 6 times as much (the shields and hyperdrives were the expensive parts). But since the rebel alliance was tiny, they wanted to give each pilot the best odds and travel options they could. Since the empire had nearly infinite manpower, and since tie fighters only needed to operate nearby their capital ships, the low cost tie fighters actually made more sense (since you could afford to send 5 tie fighters vs 1 x-wing).
Plus they did have assault gunboats, tie advanced, and tie defenders for the higher quality pilots and officers.
I would take a TIE Defender instead of a X-Wing
Who wouldn't? But you're going for the most expensive fighter on the market.
If it wasn’t for the Death Star, I think the Emperor would have given the Defender the green light
@@isaackim7675
Soooo many problems with not just the Tarkin Doctrine, but the direction of the Empire as a whole. Main problem with the Defender is the cost. You need something similar but cheaper for pilots to get used to the systems without destroying half a capital ship's cost when they die.
@@jayferguson9968 They had a sensible approach used in the TIE Fighter game, in which you cut your teeth on the Fighter, then got the Interceptor, Bomber, Assault Gunboat, Avenger, Defender and finally Missile Boat... basically the idea is, the better you got as a pilot, the more they would trust you with better craft, as it represented rewarding skill and experience by investing in your survival. Attrition rates with TIE fighters meant the worst pilots got weeded out real fast!
I'll take a TIE Hunter from Rogue Squadron.
Great vids
Great video as always eck and having had a quick look in to the matter regarding question of the day, Coruscant does indeed to both have a senator during cannon and legends verses, with one mentioned in bloodlines book as a centralist politician and several keep cropping up prior, during and after the great galactic war and the cold war that followed it.
I just rewatched this and just want to add that I love the X-Wing. It is not the fastest, not the most heavily armed, not the most maneuverable and not the sturdiest fighter. But it does not have downsides in _any_ of these categories, either.
It can be used in major fleet operations or jump through Hyperspace and then stay somewhere hidden for some days with its pilot for a clandestine operation. It keeps its pilots alive for long enough so they can gather experience.
And it looks quite badass.
The tie fighter's wings block vision of pilot... kind of like storm trooper helmets... gives them a major handicap... No wonder they can't hit anything!
This is a great video! Thank you. I didn't really have this question in my mind before, but know I a tad bit more about Star Wars. Thank you once again lol.
I think that if the empire produced x wings, then it would allow for the rebels to snatch more from the empire and bolster their numbers. The dog fights would be confusing due to both sides using the x wing If the empire produced them.
Exactly. The Rebellion was already grabbing Imperial ships, the most famous example being the Nebulon-B Frigates, if they could start replacing lost X-Wings with stolen Imperial models, it would only make the Rebel Starfighter Corps all the deadlier.
A similar thing happened on Earth during WW2 involving the P-51 Mustang. There were times when the Germans captured Allied airfields that had P-51s. Some German commanders had the idea of taking the Mustangs they captured and using them to infiltrate bomber formations to try to inflict more damage that way. They had some success with that, but four things ensured that it'd be extremely limited:
1) Such captured Mustangs were extremely rare. When the Mustang arrived in full force, Germany had already faced significant defeats (mostly from the Soviets) that hampered much of their remaining fighting forces. Thus, being able to launch any significant counter-offensive was growing more difficult and more limited.
2) They were, far more often than not, older models, such as the C variant. The D variant (which is what most would be familiar with) had quite a few differences, with the D's bubble canopy being arguably its most distinct feature (the C variant did not have it). While the C variant still saw plenty of service, it had been largely replaced by the D variant, so it would stand out to the Allies wherever they were.
3) To help the captured Mustangs reach the Allied bombers from German lines, they had to paint Luftwaffe colors and markings on them so that Luftwaffe pilots would be less likely to shoot them down. While it didn't matter much when these planes flew in from a distance, once they got in close and their colors and markings became visible to the bombers and their escorts, they would quickly be shot down.
4) Because flying in from the frontlines would be suspicious, the Germans tried to keep the captured Mustangs hidden behind Allied lines and would try to send them up once word reached them that a formation was approaching. However, this relied on a spy network (that wasn't as effective on the Allies, especially after the Enigma code was cracked), so such missions very rarely occurred.
As such, the Empire would likely have a few captured X-wings to use in smear campaigns against the Rebels (like showing frontline footage of "Rebels" indiscriminately attacking Imperial settlements, similar to showing "Rebel" soldiers slaughtering civilians), but the campaign's effectiveness would be extremely limited.
If the empire had tried to incorporate x wings into its fleet they would have had to have been in service along side tie fighters for a long time. Trying to use a ship so closely associated with the rebels in combat would undoubtedly lead to serious problems with friendly fire.
Ironically the X-WING would have a place in imperial doctrine, to hunt down Rebel outpost.
It could be used as a recon ship to check out nearby systems for any illegal activity and then deal with it, calling in more X-WINGs if needed.
While a Imperial capital ship (not just a ISD, a Frigate or a Corvette) did a slow patrol through various systems the X-WINGs would check out various planets in that system and neighbouring systems.
And it would be great for anti-pirate patrols as well.
nope - empire had no problems with force projection but stugled to find small terrorist cell in it's millions of star systems. Let's imagine that Empire had X-wings instead of TIEs. What good will it make in finding terrorists? X-wing is not a reconicance craft but a multirole fighter. Sending one, or even 10 to a star system won't allow to find if there is a terrorist presence here.
"Select Your Craft" Holy jesus thats a throw back you love to see.
Could the Chimera of Resistance be able to beat back a demonic invasion with the demonic force that was invading Earth in Doom Eternal?
No
@@xX_wiLLiam_Xx
Why?
Specfics matter.
Hey Ecks, you forgot one other crucial reason. Palps was on very, very friendly terms with Raith Sienar since way before Episode I. Thus Sienar essentially got exclusive contract for starfighter design for the new Imperial Navy and Incom got unfair treatment (and lost for a time it's independence). Corruption at it's finest ;)
(and quite possibly the kind of deal Plaps made with Sienar to keep Mual's craft a secret)
The x wing is like an ak 47,its simple, reliable,a sign of rebellion,and timeless
very interesting. I like these kind of videos exploring military doctrines and stuff. I remember reading somewhere the Empire referring Incom as "these incom traitors".
Thanks for the trip down memory lane with the old computer game footage
Also worth bearing in mind the sheer number of fighters the Empire went through. They were effectively disposable and the logistics of transportation were such that three TIE fighters could be shipped in the same volume as one T65.
Plus, I think that the X-Wing and other high-power/high-performance fighter allows pilots to become individual heroes, and that's the last thing the Empire wants: for an accomplished front line fighter to overshadow hand-picked political appointees or favorites. Similar to why Stormtroopers were made "faceless" and not allowed to customize armor.
A hyperdrive-capable fighter also gives a pilot a chance to defect, or just have too much freedom. Short range fighters are "tethered" to their base ship or station.
Coruscant's senator was mentioned in the 1st Thrawn book of the new canon as one of his relatives was at the Imperial Naval Academy
According to the X-Wing and TIE Fighter games, the Empire did have the Assault Gunboat, which served a similar tactical role to the X-Wing and Y-Wing. They just never produced them in anything like the same numbers as the various TIE models.
The Assault Gunboat was a gem among the Imperials ... better performing than Y-wings and can put up a fight with X-wings ... but never saw action in any of the movies ... it's like the "equivalent" of X-wing until TIE Advanced came along ... and of course, TIE Defender ... but they retconned it back to appear a lot earlier before Battle of Yavin ... rather than some time after Battle of Hoth...
I just love ecks new outro, mchwa!
You: the X wing is the better starfighter.
Also you: *shows one getting destroyed*
#AskEck What if The Spirit of Fire joined the Rebel Alliance?
Scenario 1: In 10BBY, the Spirit of Fire arrives in the Yavin system after the Events of Halo 1 with its Slipspace drive gone, Serina is present and the limit on her lifespan is removed, the ship and its crew are rescued by the Rebel Alliance.
Scenario 2: The Spirit of Fire with her Splipspace drive and missing all of its crew, including any AI, and arrives in Yavin at 10 BBY, the Rebel Alliance successfully retrieves the ship and adds it to their fleet.
X-wings are really expensive. We got our first batch of X-wings from a former deal between the Empire and Incom. They bailed at the last minute, thank the force, but we still had to rebuild our ships on backwards and out of the way docks for a while. The Empire preferred swarm tactics immensely, but by the time the TIE defender came around, it was too little, too late.
Ecks: Empire could have developed a better fighter after losing the X-Wing plans.
Thrawn: Yes, "could have."
Rebels: has limited rescources but can build starfighters capable of taking out quote unquote “state of the art TIE Fighters”
Empire: has nearly unlimited rescouces
Also Empire: *Builds crappy starfighters*
Star wars fans: O_o
Perhaps you could afford to build 3 TIEs for every X-Wing, but training pilots can't be cheap and, judging by how elite Imperial pilots are supposed to be, I'd expect the Empire would want them to have the best equipment available so as to maximise their effectiveness (which ends up being cheaper in the long run).
For that reason, I lean towards your other explanations, i.e. the X-Wing quickly became a symbol of the Rebellion and it was suited more towards long-range guerrilla missions than it was to being carrier-based.
Dope vid. You got me to think about this far more than I otherwise would have!
Very interesting analysis. Thanks for posting this!
I'd like to add that shipboard logistics were also a likely consideration. The Empire's capital ships were designed from the start to use the TIE Series - everything from servicing to launch/recovery operations - and changing them to accommodate the X-Wing (or any other starfighter radically different from the TIE,) would not have been cost-effective. Other than specialized ships, such as the TIE Boarding Craft or the Scimitar Bomber; all space-superiority fighter craft had to be compatible with existing Imperial Navy systems - particularly the TIE Cycling Racks.
I think the TIE represents more the Empire's doctrin, like a symbol of uniformisation. The x wing has some aspects that make him unique: he needs no dependence from the outside ( the tie hasnt hyperdrive, or even landing devices, it needs a astromech unit etc...) and the pilots are kinda attached to their ships.
Cool Vid
They actualy use something like x-wings in legends which is "Tie Hunter" used by commandoes it has s-foils shields and it can jump to hyperspace and even looks like a x-wing and a tie combined
Great video ı loved it ❤
I'm reminded of the bit in the film 'The Battle of Britain', where the Luftwaffe officer asks Goering for a squadron of spitfires...
Seeing the hangar from Rogue Squadron brought back a flood of memories!
What would have happened if UNSC had defeated he covenant forces and captured the forerunner fleet in Halo Wars instead of destroying the ships?. #askeck
Most likely would have took the ships , reverse engineer them and use them for their own objectives and enhance their ship with forerunner tech and create or upgrade new ships. So overall, the convemant might have been fucked
7:45 - Yes, the interceptor was a nice step, but it should have stayed longer on the drawing board, namely because of one thing: Shields. Nearly every rebel fighter had some sort of deflector shielding, which gave the pilots a few more seconds to react, survive, learn from their mistakes and ultimately become a better pilot. I am surprised the Empire with its vast resources, never invested in fighter shielding.
I get some of the TIE fighter line shortcomings, a hyperdrive isn't really necessary as they basically never operated without a ISD in the vicinity, and shields...tbh for a fighter of it's size and speed an A- wing might aswell not have a shield; not Life support is acutally a plus since you'd probably survive if your fighter got ripped in halt
But what I find so baffling is its shape, the cockpit window is tiny and the wings/solar arrays are HUGE, would it really increase cost that much if you angled them inwards and decreased their size so they dont restrict visbility (Like in the Eta-2)
I mean TIE's have a few advantages over X-wings, they are faster, cheaper, more reliable and I argue better "overall" technology as in targeting systems Laser cannons
and you should have been a lot more modular, the empire only really interchanged parts between the TIE bomber and shuttle (AFAIK) but really it could have been a lot more modular, interchange the wings for different mission types, long range recon? big wings and a second hull for fuel and supplied and a hyperdrive. Close air support? atmosphere suitable wings and a small proton torpedo liauncher. Short range point defence? strip it down to only engines and laser cannons. but the empire just created tons of different variants with differing parts. Some which very wholy unnecessary
I mean, do you really need a strategic bomber (slow and unshielded) if you could just use your star destroyer, which you probably have, and do you really need an even faster variant of your interceptor or for the same price improve your existing fighter which shields
For all we know, maybe there are cameras on the panels that feed the HUD display with virtual 360 views.
@@Shane2020xxx good point but the panels are still massive targets and increase the profile of the fighter unnecessarily
GeniusLike the observation that later TIE designs like the Advanced models, Bombers, Interceptors, etc all feature bent wings may indicate that the engineers of the TIE series were correcting a flaw in the original design. The later bent wings seem to use a different technology than the flat wings of the Fighter, Brute, or Striker. The older tech may have required a linear design to be efficient in whatever function the wing panels had (debated as power collection/generation and waste heat radiation are the most common), but with the advent of a new tech we see that the designers quickly move away from large flare surface areas.
And for some reason the FO goes back to having huge honking panels, completely ignoring the direction the TIE line was going. Oh well.
As a kid I always thought the prototype X-Wing that came with the Action Fleet toy was an imperial variant. Since they carried that over to basically be the TFA/TLJ/TROS X-Wing that's pretty much how I envision an imperial variant.
Over the course of World War II, Grumman's F4F Wildcat faced a similar problem against the A6M Zero that the Y-Wing encountered against the TIE Fighter. A slower craft will have trouble against a faster craft, despite a tougher design. The F6F Hellcat improved with a better Power:Weight ratio to make a nearly identical craft that could match the A6M Zero in speed.
Because the F6F's visual similarity to the F4F, A6M Zero pilots were often caught off guard by the Hellcat's ability to match their Zero's flight maneuvers.
Consider all the ship bays they would have to refit to go from the TIE design to any other design. The Interceptor could easily fit the same mounts as the original TIE because they have the same cockpit, which is where the attachment points are for docking.
Another aspect to consider is size. The Tie Fighter is more of a ship based fighter than the X-wing. The Tie Fighter looks to be the more compact aircraft, therefore; you could get more of them on board a Star Destroyer or whatever. Unless the X-wing had foldable wings. I don't recall seeing any in any of the Rebel hanger scenes.
The canon history is basically the same, Incom designed the fighter for the Empire (it even got far enough for the Empire to order a batch), but was then suddenly sidelined in favour of the cheaper TIE Fighter due to political manouvering. The big difference from legends being, that they then sold the design to the Alliance when the Alliance had heard about it and offered to buy it.
In Fate of the Jedi, the Senator for Coruscant, Fost Bramsin, was part of the conspiracy with Senator Treen of Kuat, Moff Lecersen, and several ranking GADF officers. So under the GA, Coruscant had a senator.
1.Most of the imperial establisment was content with Tie fighters.
2.Thrawn, who was only one pushing for advanced fighter force, came up with Defender that actually outperformed X-Wing on most stats. But, after he was gone (in the old canon, to act in Unknown Territories, in new canon kidnapped by space whales) no one was left to pursue the project.
How would Palpatine right after Phantom Menace do in the Warhammer 40k universe? Would he be able to achieve a position of power through either his political skill or for be powers? Or would he be destroyed easily since the Warhammer universe is so much stronger than the Star Wars universe? #askeck
He might do well as a planetary governor, but if he tried going higher in the Administratum he’ll probably catch the attention of the Inquisition. Especially if he started using Force powers.
bro your outro gets me every time lmao
One big reason is the empire also saw that without shields, the pilots would try harder to survive, hence the tie fighter doesn't have shields (which saves on costs)
@EckhartsLadder if memory serves, Coruscant has its own Senator in the MMO Star Wars: The Old Republic... though whether or not she keeps her job depends on the players' choice upon finding out that she was working with criminals to try to aid the rebuilding after the Sacking of Coruscant.
If they skipped developing 2 death stars the might have had room to build enough of a true competitor to the X-Wing.