Thorens TD 124 and DL103 versus Oracle Delphi
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- Опубликовано: 13 окт 2024
- Please use HD and good equipement or Headphones to explore the differences in the Sound of the Turntables.
2024-5: there is now a sound level maximizer software you should switch off, see settings.
This is a reupload with two different versions of the TD 124/SME /DL103:
0.00 - 5.30: TD124 MK2, DL 103, (& weight/spacer) original idler wheel.
10.30: TD124, DL 103 in silver body, Audiosilente idler wheel.
it is not a proper A/B comparsion in all factors, but still informative.
Many thanks to Marcel who made a great Job on these Players!
![カートリッジ比較 [DENON DL-103] vs [SHURE M44G] vs[NAGAOKA MP-110]](/img/1.gif)
The Oracle!!!! That Syrinx arm!!!, superb sound. Expressive and emotive.
you are right, is a great combination. The PU3 is exeptional, still love to listen to it. i even bought a spare NOS motor for the oracle - i'm save for the next 30y with it.
The Thorens’ performance was built from the bottom up. The bass and drums were timing well and created a great foundation for everything else. The DL103 is an enjoyable listen and it starts to airbrush the sound a little as it moves into the treble. The total effect was lovely, bold and grippy.
The Oracle was a more forensic transcription. Details, dynamics and ambience it was more fluid than the TD124. Both would be great to live with. The Thorens would have people up and dancing more of the time and the Oracle would allow people to admire musicianship and the recording a bit more.
The TD124 with a better bearing, electronic speed control, a more expensive cartridge and phonostage would out perform the Oracle. The story here seemed to show that if you can get one, a TD124 is capable of being the only turntable you ever need. It showed that even with budget vintage ancillaries the TD124 is formidable.
well sayed. i would not deny that the Oracle also was "built to performance".
And: if you have a moving woodfloor, living in a old house: Oracle does not transfer the traps, you can even dance beside it, stylus stays, and plays.
Phonostage is a rare "blue Aria", handbuilt by Reto Luigi Andreoli. (current Input, MC to line) and very good to my ears. But i should use the 103R, or the ZYX to it, prefers a low impedance.
@@vinylchallenge5572 well done, even through RUclips people can hear the differences, which means an awful lot! Personally I preferred the 124 with the 103, there is some kind of mystical feeling to it, very airy, huge soundstage, probably owing mostly to the 124, I suppose...but the 103 holds its own too. A little less definition than the Oracle, which was marvelous too, but much more of a "live performance" from the 124/103. Makes me really want this combo....thanks a lot for this!
thank you. Please consider, that the Thorens 124 is 50y old - bearings, bushings, felts, rubberparts - all need to be in good condition. It's not that every 124 sounds like this by day one. The good is, that you find all the parts. The one who does or did the revisions should have some experience.
I owned a delphi mkIII.
In the mid of 90s i switched to 124, revisited from Audiosilente.
Absolutely no regrets about my choice.
Love it, I am lucky to own a 124, 121, and 125 but your Oracle Delphi is over the top! It all sounds great to me I have this album too, nice choice.
Allen
Don’t understand how some people say they can’t hear the difference because it’s on RUclips. It can only mean their systems are not properly set up and optimised. I only have budget second hand gear (however I do use a good DAC/linear PSU, cables and fuses) however the difference is clear. The sound of the Oracle is clearly superior - it simply takes you closer to the heart and soul of the performance. The most obvious audible difference is the quality of the treble (e.g. the lack of sibilants in the vocals) and the clarity and tunefulness of the bass line. I imagine the difference is even more pronounced listening in person. Thanks for sharing.
agree to most, but if you compare 9:45 and 14:50 - not sure if oracle wins all points
What is impressive is how well the "old" Thorens stacks up against a modded Oracle, a Delphi at that and likely at maybe half the price of the Oracle. Then there is the tonearm, While the 12" SME is a good arm it may be at a disadvantage here.
It's simple, they use something called ears!
I also have the TD124 SME 3009 Type 2 improved DL103R set up and I love it. It has a punch to it. I also love your Oracle Delphi. It definitely has the detail throughout it's dynamic range. It has some low level nuances that I didn't hear on the Thorens. You picked a great song to demonstrate the benefits of both setups. If you were trying to decide which one to keep or which on people prefer, it would be tough. I think the are both great depending on what you're playing. I think the Thorens would be great for Rock and Jazz or anything with a dramatic, quick dynamic range change and the Oracle Delphi would be great for Classic and Progressive rock with more subtle dynamic range changes to get all that detail along the way. So, I would vote for both. Thanks for posting.
thats a first comprehensive comment, thanks :) BTW: i would recommend a something havier Arm then the 3009imp to the DL103. (bass gets immediatelly better)
the TD124 has more prat and sounds warmer. The Oracle has more body and better clarity. None of that is a surprise. But there are many factors going on here. Hybrid idler/belt drive vs belt drive, different cartridges (I think the 103 has a conical stylus which is inherently warmer/wooly sounding. Regardless, nice setups and nice song choice.
@Arkadi Danielyan the Oracle was 2nd or 3rd Hand and costing less then 1000usd. Mod's & repairs about 450.-on Top.
i would never" invest" 10k in a turntable (ok, there is that EMT 927 that would be ok for that)
Hi.....Have you used any other carts in that combination? How do you compare the sound to other carts, or even the original 103? I have just obtained TD124 w/ SME 3012 Type II (not improved) & once restored, would like to put a comparable cart in it. I like the sound of vintage Shure 90's & Stanton 681EEE and what a flat response and not colored if possible. Tried Ortofon 2M Red (sibIlance and harsh) & Shure m97xe (ok but rolled of highs) in other TT set ups. Have Signet 5.0mr in another Thorens TD 318, like it but I know it is bright (like AT's usually are). Read about the Denon, with its history and broadcast use.
as described, i do not dare to invest loads of money in chartridges, since they are tricky, and somehow a bad investment. If MM, i would check Audio Technica, 440ML or AT-7V, Nagaoka's, Sumiko's.
MI is also a Way, Soundsmith, Grado - all stuff to like. MC needs a propper matching and a HQ SUT or preamp - but with 3012, and a heavy Headshell DL103 makes fun.
I keep coming back to this video because the oracle is a winner.
One of my fav songs great Sting cover have this on CD
Absolutely the Thorens!
it's funny how controversal the opinions on the decks are - one calls the oracle "lame", the other prefeers it over the TD 124, the third calls the comparsion not legit (and is right to some perspective). The Idea was just to present the difference of two well regarded Turntable setups. I personally prefeer the idler Wheel, but also the Syrinx PU3 - maybe i "marry" them at some point.
I need some clarification : is it a comparison of two different sound flavours due to two different setups or is it a comparison of two TT. If it is the latter why not using the same setup including same tonearm, same cartridge and same phonostage ? I would tend to believe that it is the former 🙂. Personally, I like both. You are a lucky man to own these two lavish systems.
it's basically 2 things: A compairson of a TD 124-II with and without mods, and a compairson of two legendary turntables of their times. Besides that, a comparsion of direct drive vs belt, heavy vs light tonearm, 60ties vs. 80ties.
Sold the Oracle to a friend, bought it 20y ago for 900chf, and invested about 500 to restore it. so about us$ 1650.- these days.
The Syrinx tonearm is superb! On the Oracle the sound was so good. The flow and micro-dynamics are more to the fore. The First TD124 sounded closer up with more power but, some excess energy. The second Thorens lost some of the excess and gained some perspective. Both Thorens SME setups were enjoyable. The drummer and bass player were all about timing and the Thorens showcased their importance to Sting’s cover of Little Wing. The Syrinx/Oracle record player was about subtleties and virtuosity. I would be happy with any of these players but, I would be looking for a cross between the qualities of timing perspective and micro-dynamics.
A good record clamp really helps extract more from the vinyl and even sometimes a blacker background . Would have loved to hear the Thorens with a clamp .
the quickstop function / upper platter interfeer with a clamp or weight - for the 124. Blacker background - not sure, since you couple the LP to a less silent drive (then belt) but i agree, in many cases it helps to use a clamp.
I think it is really going to depend on what music one is listening to, and personal taste. The Oracle to me sounds more towards the digital side, and the Thorens more analog, more like hearing it live, but that is likely more to do with the cart than the table in my opinion. Also, combinations of components matter, and maybe switching speakers or amps will change personal preferences again.
I like the Thorens more open dynamic wider soundstage u are in the room as Chad says
After the Audiosilente upgrade as far as I can hear Thorens has gained much more bigger soundstage. A huge difference. On real life I do not have any chance to hear that how Oracle sounds like.
it's more the added weight/silverbody to the DL103 what makes this difference. The audiosilente idler helps to reduce noise/rumble in the drive system.
They are both very good. Oracle is a little better. Would need to hear few more comparisions to finally decide
Are you kidding? The idler drive give the Thorens a granite like base when all the Oracle can do is pushing against cotton wool. Thats technically the biggest difference between the two models and you can hear that in a sudden, within the first three tact. A lame, lame record player this Oracle. Thanks for sharing!
The audio could be improved (both cases). What is your recording source?
Who knows what the differences are here. Not even the same cartridge, tonearm and phonostage for both. It is simply not a comparison of the turntables because nothing else is the same. A bit silly.
well, you can directly compare V1 & V3 - same - same, besides some major and/or minor differences... and use V2 as a "reference" for a modern belt driven deck. Besides that, i have a Life....cheers!
er ..nice tune..wouldn't a comparison of the two turntables require that the tonearms and cartridges were the same ?
So which do you prefer?
There is no way to make a true comparison after RUclips digitalisation.
I pick the Oracle, by a long margin. I heard from it more lifelike tone, better instrument definition, and more complete expression of the instruments' harmonics. The Thorens sounds pretty open and lively, but doesn't sound as complete and natural as the Oracle. The upper midrange component of the cymbals isn't fully there - I hear the attack and the high frequency chime, but not the body or color. The same with the bass - the attack and high frequency harmonics sound great, but it's missing the meat. The great high frequency performance grabs your attention, but I find the sound lacking in other ways.
But hey - it just shows that different listeners value different things.
you are not wrong, for the topics you mentioned i also prefer the oracle - ZYX combination. But the rythm, drive, timing...? also check Bassnotes: Oracle seems to go deeper & being quicker, but bassline on thorens seems more natural/dark & "easier to follow" - and: DL103 is a nice MC for high mass arms, but atm i have a 2nd hand ZYX R50 bloom on the Thorens - guess what....if i had the time to make a video, it would probably convince you :)
@@vinylchallenge5572 I thank you for making the video. It was fun. If I wasn't half asleep when I listened, I may have gone a little deeper.
I have owned a Thorens TD160 and an Oracle Alexandria MkII, which are not equal to your models, but are good turntables, and equally matched. They both sound great, but I prefer the Oracle Alexandria. It just draws me in more. I still own it. I sold the Thorens.
My Oracle Alexandria MkII has a Sumiko Premiere FT-3 tonearm. One think I like about the Oracle is that it allows every cartridge to show its own character, and elevates the performance of cheap cartridges. A lowly Ortofon Super OM10 even sounds excellent on it.
Apart from being a vintage turntable (I mean, the TD-124)... Does it sound accordingly to the price it is asked everywhere?
the TD here seen was 400CHF some 15y ago. incl. a SME3009 imp. (350 usd at the time) they pop up on flewmarkets for even less, if u are lucky. And yes, they are worth the same as a garrard 401, and can have a life - longer then mine and yours, i guess.
I don't know how good "You Tube sounds". I listen with a good Sennheiser headphone.
The TD124 sounds much more live.
My profession is working whole day with live acoustical instruments.
from 3:54 and 14:05 there is some bad mistracking/distortion?
Hi There, Great video and amazing sound. How did you recorded the sound? Thanks
recorded with Motu 2408mk3 (modified clock & PSU & Analog I/O) in 24Bit 44.1K - rendered to highest qualitiy possible - for YT & my Software- abilities here.
is there a Little distortion?
After the upgrade the 124 seems to have gained ‘bite’ but loss a little of the musical magic. Oracle Delphi sounds modern. As for using Sting’s ‘Little Wing’ the 124 capture the sombre mood of the song’s melody for me. I would have gone for the Oracle if it was a Frankie goes to a Hollywood ‘ Born to Run’.
The Thorens wins this one.
Have you check the bearing and speed on the Oracle Delphi ? Some point of the demo sounded a bit odd .
yes, checked and revised by a pro, but i walk in the room - maybe thats the thing you hear.
You should have used the same arm and cartridge on both turntables for a more accurate judgment of the difference of the deck and drive mechanism.
i'm aware of that - maybe next time :)
Any chance you will do more videos? 🙂
see yourself, there is one more up now, but dont expect too many ;)
Wow!
日本から、お邪魔します。
このアルバム、D面が素晴らしい。
2枚組の2枚めの10:35あたりばっかり聞いている。
日本への挨拶！
Vinyl Challenge 様
ご返信いただき、ありがとうございます。
DENONのDL-103は、現在購入検討中で、あちらこちらで調べていましたところ、持っているLPが使われていたので、コメントをいたしました。
こちらのコメントは、皆様英語でなさっているので、「日本語はどうか…」とも思ったのですが、英語がわかりませんので、不躾ながら日本語にて失礼いたしました次第です。
Googleのおかげで、それは残念なことではありません。すべて音楽の喜びのためです。 DL 103は、最高を示すために重厚なトンネルが必要です。 敬具！
La dernière version de laTD124 modifiée par audiosilente est vraiment mieux et meilleur, la version oracle sonne bien mais c'est beaucoup moins vivant que la dernière version modifiée de la TD124, on ressent plus d'émotions.
bien observé. Les basses profondes sont plus noires avec Syrinx/ZYX, les aigus sont un peu mieux résolus. Le TD124 a plus de « drive »
There's no contest here, the oracle wins hands down.
Tell us why
Waiting for the simple answer
imagine the arm/chartridge from the Oracle to the Thorens drive. Here, the ZYX has stronger bass response. The Kickdrum punchier. Sublow frequencies more authority, darkness.
zyx are very good, at some important points very advanced cartridges, but even their entry model is far from bargain. I'm not a fan of expensive cartridges, and would always suggest to invest in the Turntable/Tonearm/Phonopre/Records/Cleaner first. And that MC's are matched and set up to specifications. First judge is measurement or correct gauge, scale, magnifying glass, eye - last the ear.
Vinyl Challenge Ultimately, your ears are the best devices nature has given you to use in determining a judgement, unless your deaf; then you have no choice and must utilize gauges and instruments to arrive at an opinion.
The oracle in this demo didn’t win cause using different arm and cartridge. Not really a fair comparison nor even
well, in fact both cartridge and tonearm are advanced / better in the oracle - but you are right, it's not a propper A/B comparsion.
Hi . You should make more video friend
Your comparison is biased because you have too many different parameters running at the same time; it does not make sense. If you compare the two turntables they should be associated with the same equipments that are the cartridges, the preamp etc... What you do is a demonstration not a comparison. But I did enjoy the demo.
just read the describtion, i was aware of that. But still is a comparsion: 2 turntable classics of their time. And if you want the A/B comparsion, listen the both thorens versions and drop the oracle.