The Great Community Debate feat. Stylosa, Fareeha, Skiesti & UnsaltedSalt
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- For The Great Community Debate, I'm joined by Stylosa, Fareeha, Skiesti & UnsaltedSalt as we talk things like community systems, how the OW community compares to other games and how to change things like toxicity, harassment & bigotry.
Podcast Links:
Spotify: open.spotify.c...
Soundcloud: / the-great-community-de...
Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple...
Guests' Socials:
Fareeha's RUclips: / fareeha | Twitter: / askfareeha | Twitch: twitch.tv/fareeha
Skiesti's Twitch: / skiesti |Twitter: / skiesti_ | Discord: / discord | RUclips: / skiesti
Stylosa's RUclips: / stylosa | Twitter: / stylosa | Instagram: / stylosa
UnsaltedSalt's Twitter: / unsaltedsalt__ | Twitch: / unsaltedsalt_ | RUclips: / @unsaltedsaltttv
My Merch: teespring.com/...
Patreon (Who Get Discounts and Free Gear): / svb .
Twitch: / owsvb .
Twitter: / ow_svb .
Discord server: / discord . Join me!
Prints: www.redbubble....
For those who like to listen to this in audio form, here are the podcast links! Do consider supporting me directly via Patreon if you do listen via these mediums as these are not monitized by me! But enjoy and tell me what you guys thought about everything discussed or if we left anything out!
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa
Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-community-debate
Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265
Imagine inviting someone from the console community. Oh well, we're just a joke anyhow.
SVB's back must be getting tired from carrying the Overwatch community like this.
@SVB it would be interesting if you could find someone in Gold or below who's willing to participate in one of these conversations. Because there a lot of frustrations/toxicity which is different then in the higher ELO's.
Streamer mode is first world problems. We've got people who want public profiles because it's "essential information " but on the other hand we want to hide our names so people don't know who they're playing against. But it's just as essential to know who you play against as seeing public profiles.
Great convo, love the discussion.
Only 7.9k views as of this comment ???
Okay, I knew something was up when I didn't get a RUclips notification on this video until now.
But wow, I love all of these content creators. Heck even Stylosa is a massive face of the community.
Fareeha: "When I use a voice modulator... I sound like Kephrii" - "Oh god"
That was freakin great ! xD
With the current state of the game, I hate OTPing. It seems extremely silly to me that some GMs can't have a hero pool of 2-3 heroes. A preferred hero system could make my mindset on that extremely different, but right now, when it's a zarya and dva otp in my game, I'm upset as a flex dps and flex tank in low gm high masters and others can't at least pick a second hero on their own role.
Will there be a console vs pc video?
Some people can get toxicity thrown at them but carry on being decent human beings but most people just take it as reasons to be toxic themselves because 'its just the game' or 'thats just how life is' and this is propagated on and on. OW as a community is a very good example of this. No one in the community thinks theyre a bad person inherently. They are 'just playing the game' and treating others how they are or have been treated. Hot buttons like streamers, girls, off-meta picks just flare emotions driven by years of experience with toxicity and stereotypes- you are every streamer theyve hated. you are every female who they felt ruined their game (often by doing nothing other than being female), and same with off meta.
Hatred and toxicity is not developed in each person. It flows through from others and are learned behaviors, first at a trickle but it gets bigger and bigger til the tipping point where the dam breaks, there is no going back, and toxicity reigns- and people can either quit (most do this), join in (most who dont quit do this) or weather it- very few have the emotional fortitude to do that forever- you pretty much need to be super human in your sense of self and self confidence- and in a game as punishing as OW can be from even just a skill perspective of metagame + hero knowledge + mechanics, self confidence is very hard to maintain against constant toxicity.
tl;dr people generally see themselves as good, respond to toxicity by propagating toxicity, and it has poisoned OW community.
I feel like the discussion centred around streamers a little too much for me, loses relevance to the vast majority of players in gold and plat. From my perspective, much of the toxicity comes from a game that requires you to see the play through others eyes (why are you not getting healed, cos your ana is fighting a tracer... dps aren't getting picks, maybe they have no space). Another issue is all the guides and meta discussion, which creates ppl who think they know how to play the game at low ranks getting tilted because there are other players who haven't learnt the meta, or how to use a certain combo.
Agree here. The game requires so much awareness of everybody else 1) be good at the game. I felt so much better at the game when I first started ult tracking, for instance, and B) not get angry/toxic/whatever, because people take stuff like no heals so personally.
Most solo players don't have that level of awareness and blaming others is just so damn easy
Fully agree. The streamer mentality; while I do feel bad when they’re being sniped or trolled, it’s ultimately their decision to be a streamer. It definitely sucks that people are asshats to streamers, but it’s not Blizzards fault. They shouldn’t have to use development time/money making systems that only benefit the smallest group of players.
In regards to a solution, making the game have more solo carry/individual agency will help and it seems like they are going this way already. But they could also adjust the way the game reports stats etc to make it clear at a glance where the issues are. I also wished they would redesign the heros to encourage correct play. Why doesn't zarya get ult charge from damage blocked from bubbles or DVA could get ult charge from eating abilities as opposed to just damage or heals.
I agree with this, I think it would have been cool to maybe have a mixed cast with like maybe 2 content creators/streamers and 2 just regular players of the community.
Yeah, I do think part of it is lacking knowledge of how the game works. "Heal me!" while their Ana is getting dove by a Tracer and a Winston in the backline.
I always wondered why Private Profiles are the default. That is like denying a key feature of a game.
I hope they revert it back. Most people dont even know that their profile is private and in 90% cases you have no idea who this player is.
It makes lower elo people like myself paranoid that everyone is a smurf or that you are in the wrong MMR and it feels like your SR never catches up. I swear I've played 4v4 against a bunch of diamonds when I dont grind enough to get out of gold
I'm insecure abour my profile so I keep it private
Toxicity. Thats why the profile being hidden is default. Some people don't want what they may have played alot like 2 years ago to be the thing you decide to be toxic to them for.
People are literally not proficient enough stat reading or have the time to use it for anything useful midgame. Most basically only use it as a tool to find something to blame people with.
After switching to QP I've never looked back. Its not OW, its comp that's the problem I think.
In QP everyone has the shared goal of completing the next objective. In comp, everyone has the goal of increasing their own SR.
This leads to being annoyed/salty about every single thing in game that *may* cause a loss. I've had players be salty all match even though we full held!
Yep mostly agree. I just wish QP also had the Comp settings of both attacking/defending, etc. Because seeing a "Defeat" screen, when in reality you did really well with the true ruleset in mind, is kinda strange. If anything, the announcer should just say "Match complete" instead of Win/Loss, because it aint indicative of how your team actually performed overall, and encourages more toxicity than necessary in qp.
I've even brought 3 of my friends into playing OW and they get disheartened by seeing the Defeat screen more than the Victory screen, and I have to constantly explain that we actually did really well, and in a real comp setting our result could easily have won us the match. But with most maps favoring defenders when considering all capture points combined, statistically you are far more likely to see more Defeat matches than Victory matches just based off of what map and whether you're defending or attacking. This is not a good implementation of qp rules.
At lower ELOs one of the things I've noticed is when people start saying 'we need a shield tank' or 'we need a main healer' what they mean, even tho they don't know it, is 'I don't know how to play with a Winston/Lucio/Sombra' etc. It's super annoying if you know your Monkey is far better than your Rein, but I've kinda come to accept that I have to sometimes swap because other people don't know how to play with a certain hero rather than I'm necessarily bad at that hero
This is spot on. This is why I don’t play with and can’t stand 1 trick players. Like no we don’t “need” this hero to win. You need to learn how to play dps when you don’t have a rein shield to stand behind
Freedo has done a great job of talking about this. People feel like they need a Rein shield because their positioning is so bad and don't get how most shooters work, aka hide behind a wall.
At lower elo, if people is asking for specific heroes it is because they are supports getting killed by Pharahs, Doomfists, Genjis, Monkeys, etc and the dps and tanks are not peeling for them. If the enemy plays a Pharah just switch to a hitscan. You are not Aquamarine, you are not gonna kill the Pharah with your Junk left click.
@Nexa yeah, that's a great way to stay in silver lol seen so many Reins afraid to swing and they're barely getting any value
@Nexa that's exactly why they want you to play rein. So you kind of have to balance holding shield against going forward. I tend to play with a group of friends and if there's 3 of us it's really easy to be aggressive as rein, or just play Winston. But if I'm solo queueing even up to high gold it just doesn't work. I try and play reactive, so when someone gets to close go hard on them. But even then you get shouted at for dropping shield because some idiot is standing in the middle of nowhere and gets picked by a soldier or Cree etc
Think Stylosa hits the nail on the head, it's so easy to try to find who is the problem, and sometimes it can be easier to see if someone is dying first. Just gotta focus on your own play ultimately.
5v5 will help seeing who the problem is because even if someone is always dying first diamond and below still don’t notice the problem. Personally I would like them to change the tab UI so I can see damage deaths etc. because players should be held accountable for their play whether is just a bad game or not. And also when they blocked profiles it bad things WAYYYYY more toxic. If my Ana has under 7k healing per 10 then I instantly know the problem and my tilt is gone, it’s a ggs go next. Same if my dps have over 8 deaths/10 they are soft throwing big time.
Players need to be held accountable for behavior and gameplay, and as much as you can focus on yourself at the end of the day their needs to be a standard of play that just doesn’t exist.
@@stevensmoltz4383 you're talking nonsense. Supports can have 5k healing per 10 and have gold if you're playing against snipers and all your fights have been lost in seconds because your dps got outplayed, or cos supports died first due to recieving no help against flankers and dive. This game is a lot more complicated than just about medals and stats
And again if you're playing against flankers - as a dps you can switch to cree, genji sombra, echo or anything you good at. As a support you can switch to brig. As a tank you can go dive yourself or go zarya and your bubble your healers. So every role got opportunity to fix some problems. If you aren't helping - you have no right to call others the problem and say gg, because it's a team based game - if you ain't fixing the problem - you became one
@@yellowtunes2756 if someone has 6 hours of gameplay in a season on Ana they should have a minimum of 8k, MINIMUM. the majority of games in masters and below will have a good amount of brawling and fights. Which means that if a match is super quick like you say and the fights are quick that the amount of time played in those low healing games won't even make a dent in the overall number. its literally like looking at 87% of 1 million and then you add 1, you wont even see the decimal change. its irrelevant. just like the minority of matches played with snipers and quick fights.
Also again like I said there needs to be a standard of play within the game itself that is "policed" by the players. Players should know which stats are important and why if the per 10 numbers are good or not. because I'm getting pretty tired watching my VODs and seeing diamond+ Anas who cant hit a shot and then you look at stats and see 5k healing and it all makes sense why you couldn't push or why your team is always dead. It's simply not enough
@@yellowtunes2756 And thats another problem too is that people cant stay alive even against snipers. its really not that hard. sometimes you get caught out I get it, BUT at the same time if my teammates have over 8 deaths per 10 as well. youre throwing sorry...
@@stevensmoltz4383 well, this imaginary ana in the same rank as you, she deserved it as much as you. Maybe she got big nades and you need to press W, or you need to play safer if she actually can't aim but got amazing nano usage, maybe she just on a loose streak, maybe she can't see you and you need to take less damage. Wasting time to scroll people's profiles to blame them instead of adapting, helping them and winning - that's the mentality of a whiny twitter bitch, sry dude. No-one ever should seek for someone to blame instead of improving yourself
SVB you’re the goat!
"Does the nature of the game make it worse?"
Absolutely! the medal system encourages toxicity. spectating your teammates after you die encourages toxicity. having no way to ping or communicate quickly encourages toxicity. matchmaking system with limited players encourages toxicity.
Excuse me, your talking to bronze damage
@@Vs3Walker lmfao xD good one rein
I definitely agree that the medal system creates poor player behaviour, chasing meaningless minor achievements instead of playing the game to win.
Spectating teammates I don't think is toxic on its own - it's mostly the player's mindset that makes it a problem. Dying is actually quite good for your team because it allows you to cycle through your teammates and look for openings or flanking opponents. All you need to do is communicate the problem or advantage. The problem with spectating teammates comes from the individual player's mindset, especially when they're looking for a reason to blame someone else for why the game isn't going their way.
I definitely wish that there was a better pinging system to call out specific targets or locations when I or my teammates don't have a microphone.
@@Keyce0013 you’re right about the mindset. Unfortunately after dying a players mindset is more than likely set on “how/why did I die” instead of how can I help my team now.
@@StorminNormin411 100% agree.
The reason why there are so many toxic people in online competitive videogames is because they are pursuing false goals. By this, I mean people think desparately grinding a videogame ranked ladder will bring them fulfilment. And when they don't reach the highs they want to, they get frustrated and lash out at others.
As much as I enjoy competitive multiplayer myself, the real answer here is that toxicity will never go away because it is substituting male dominance in an area that confers no meaningful benefit to someone's life -- unless they're good enough to go pro or stream for a living. (But obviously, this is a distinct minority of players.)
In reality, many of us should be channeling that competitive spirit into self improvement and bettering our lives in ways that actually matter. Dare I say, to the point where we stop raging at a competitive game, because the outcome doesn't matter to us as much as it once did.
dont think thats an issue with competitive games I think thats an external issue everyone faces in life that usually is beyond your control where as you can to some degree control what happens in a game through your own skill, and when games dont go the way you want them to and it happens consistently it results in anger, anger that really is likely to be anger about real life more so then the game its self.
@@DotADBX I agree but the problem is I think competitive games exacerbate it, because you're more nakedly competing with others.. obviously. And then your performance is graded on a hierarchical ladder relative to others, where the top achievers get the most respect and admiration, and those in the mediocre masses are ignored and/or forgotten about.
If I'm trying to beat Dark Souls, none of those particular factors are really prevalent. (Except for maybe the clout of saying "I beat the gamer game" but it's still not quite the same imo.)
@@seanevans6880 it could be more so the design of the game and how it is played that really causes the issue, a lot of competitive games are designed to be addictive to some extent driving the individual to continue playing the game long past what a normal game would where you can put it down and come back to it later.
I dont think its the competition that brings toxicity out other wise you would see this similarly in sports where yes trash talk occurs but not at the same level that it does in online games some may argue that the reason for that is that you are speaking with an individual that has no face and there's no immediate threat via retaliation for what you say rather then what happens in actual sports but I feel it could be argued in actual sports in the heat of the moment with emotions high and chemicals flowing threw the body that physical exchange would be more likely but it rarely occurs except in the most aggressive of sports.
Strictly speaking I feel its the over all design of the game and the failure of the developer to force the community to play the game as it is intended that results in these issues because they are trying to cater to the masses as much as possible to both remain profitable and create as much revenue from the product as possible rather then thinking of the over all health of the community and what is better for it rather then going for profits for the sake of profits.
in the cooperate world this is known as ethical phasing where the business losses sight of its original goal for its existence in the first place.
I believe this could be the reason why so many competitive games these days have become so toxic and far more so then ever in the past.
@@DotADBX Hmm, not so sure. I'll put it this way -- anyone pursuing meaningful, real world goals aren't spending dozens of hours playing a videogame ranked mode per season. I truly believe that. That's because their attention towards ascending a hierarchy takes up a large portion of their daily life anyway.
That could be their career, pursuit of a hobby, self improvement like going to the gym etc. These can all be competitive domains where people have desires to rise in social standing.
Conversely, a videogame doesn't exactly attract the same audience. Videogames are escapism, both in the good and bad sense. For me, it doesn't matter how many times I get to Masters, the result confers no actual benefit to my life. But the reward structure that makes it addictive, as you allude to, tricks me into thinking it matters more to me than I know it really does.
It's a complicated thing and I believe touches on many aspects of decision making that a lot of players would find uncomfortable to discuss. And of course, there are many people who play a game like this casually for fun, and it doesn't matter much to them at all.
But we are talking about the toxic players after all. I've never heard a truly toxic or whiny player and felt "oh yeah this guy clearly has an awesome life." More often than not, I know he's playing to compensate for his own real world inadequacies, as if being a GM player will impact his life positively in ways that actual engagement with his real problems will not.
Everything about this comment is spot on except the male dominance part cause while I see it much less, there are toxic females in Overwatch and to add to that idea we may see less toxic females cause there are just less females period…. Like think what’s the actual percentage of guys in your games being toxic vs guys that aren’t being toxic or just not even in VC period compared to women. So if I play with 100 guys in a day and 50 are toxic vs playing with 20 females in that same day and 8 are toxic, the numbers for both are either half or close to half for both being toxic there are just less females in general. Now this is just an example not actual numbers to say that I don’t think the toxicity is just a male trait.
I wish guys like Unsalted and Samito would act more like they do with SVB than they do in their streams. The toxicity problem isn't helped every time they go screaming at teammates for playing badly or playing heroes they don't like. People internalize that behavior.
People watch them for that, they find it funny so I guess it’s more of a persona
@@light6713 I think people forget that half of that is dramatization for the streams. That’s the attraction for those guys, that they’re “toxic” or “funny” or “competitive.” The fact that they act normal here should be an indication that what people think of as toxic people may not actually be a reflection of their being. Lol
@@TV-vz7rf thats very true
I watched Sam stream alot and hes not even that toxic. He legit tell his team what they should do to help them win. When he gets angry and toxic, he complain to his stream but not in the in-game team chat.
@@warwid5419 yeah I know he isn’t toxic most of the time in voice chat but calls them shit and whatever on his streams
I see why it may have been left out, but I think it would have been important to touch on content creator's (or people with a platform) role especially in the hero stigma part. Ski mentioned that little thought was put into exposing the Hog player, but also how much it goes to propagating more hate toward Hog players in general. This community has seen notable figures like Samito CONSTANTLY putting targets on heroes and by extension their players, generating a whole hate movement toward Brigitte and Moira mains, that painfully still echoes to this day. And knowing the internet someone will doubt this; I've been through it myself having mained Moira, I see it on twitter, I've seen a friend get death threats on Twitter and in-game for maining Brigitte, not to mention the constant harassment. And of course, you get the skill elitists who seem to think all there is to this game is aim and therefore heroes like Mercy, Moira and Brigitte are "skilless" and shouldn't exist, which is probably most of the people who target Ski.
This is true. People shit talk Brig players a lot, the funny thing is, a lot of players do it under some misguided impression that she's weak, even before her most recent nerfs. its hilarious.
Fareeha saying she sounds like Kephrii when her voice mod is on and then saying “it’s not good either way” was the early highlight for sure lol
Overwatch 2 should have 5 avoid-slots and make it so you can pay for more: unlimited profit
True, I would buy them lmao
Strong agree with Stylosa on a lot of points, but we definitely need ranked and unranked to be identical rulesets.
idk man, i feel like quick play should be.. quick. play.
I don't wanna queue up for a casual game and have to push anubis 4 times. I'm perfectly fine with that in comp, because i want the outcome to be as fair as possible even if that means playing several rounds, but the "quick" in quickplay is there for a reason. It should remain just a fast way to get into a game and play for a bit without really caring about what happens. I think giving quickplay the competitive ruleset would also make the quickplay warriors even more furious ingame.
If U make them identical where is the point of having quick and comp?
@@zephyr4963 It would be ok if you could still leave quick play games. If a game takes too long, just leaave
Just replace quick play with “unranked” and keep classic qp in arcade
I wanted to hear unsalted's views (everyone's deserves an opinion) but I don't have a lot of sympathy with him slating toxic people in game where he is known to be one of them and part of the problem. When people see him to it, it says it's ok for them to do it.
The difference, between me and them i say stuff out of frustration; if you watched my stuff which isn't clipped out of context i get angry over game based stuff, im not slating normal toxicity in games im slating the people who jump on one person just to go along with it, im slating the teenagers 16-18 on overwatch who dedicate to hate on, throw and say some phobic, racist stuff and cheat. Ontop of that theres different levels to toxicity and passion can get mixed up for toxicity, ive been very angry and said some stupid shit to people because of the game did i mean it? no? am i trying to better myself? yes but don't put me in the same boat with the people who actually attack people in overwatch bc of their race, sexuality or gender
TBH xQc is way worse than unsalted on his worst day. I'm glad he doesnt play overwatch anymore.
@@Unsaltedsaltttv good stuff man
@@ashketchup247 no one asked
Streamers are by far the most abusive and toxic part of the OW community. Not every streamer is toxic and abusive, but there are many large streamers who are. Their large influence affects all their viewers and people that they play with.
Can you give some examples?
@@Day-vg1bh Ironically Unsalted is a great example. He recently just trioed with another streamer(Moxie I believe) and a gold who bought an account named Jelly. They fell from GM into at least diamond or lower
Moxie was definitely more toxic in game to be fair, but it made me dislike Unsalted a lot because of how they blamed me specifically when they couldn’t boost Jelly
@@johnf419 Lmao i recently has a game with salted on his main in a 4.2kish game. Salted raged so hard at the end of the game that he just spent 5 minutes talking about how bad of a player I am, how he can't believe his team lost to me, how his teammates must be boosted dogshit for him to lose to me, how he and the other streamers (jay3, beaver, others were in the game too) all know and talk about how bad I am, and he immediately shut off the stream and then unpublished the vod so that nobody can track how toxic he is.
I swear there's a lot of people who seem to play the game to not have fun. I understand the game is hella frustrating but for people to only ever flame others or find something to attack them about in any losing game is just so lame. It's hard to just come into a game and vibe, win or lose and try my best and have fun while I'm at it without feeling like someone is going to call me out for any little mistake I make. We all notice the things we individually mess up and then that immediately feeds into the fear of being called out because it can and will happen. When you have a group of 6 people who all feel the same way it sets a negative energy early in the game. Even games you win can be toxic which is so beyond me. I just can't wait for overwatch 2 to come out so for even just a little bit there's a spark in the community that makes people have fun and enjoy themselves, win or lose.
Exactly. It's like when you type GLHF, and there's always a few people who respond with "No. This is Overwatch, it can't be fun". Like yea, sometimes its comedic intent, but there's always a layer of truth behind, and for a lot of people that is legit the midnset they go into games with. They are downright prepared pre match to not have a good time. Like wtf these people should have a mental check because their brain aint ok.
@@Real_MisterSir yeah I've noticed exactly the same thing and come to that conclusion. The fact that you can't even humor GLHF with a simple "you too" or whatever tells me you're perpetually tilted and angry before anything has even happened.
The most rude, unpleasant community I've ever experienced. Quite a few players consider themselves experts yet most have simply assimilated a hodge podge of ideas regarding the current meta at the highest levels of play.
Maybe it's just me... but I found there to be just as many positive interactions with players as well as negative. It's just the negative we all hear about because they can have a greater impact on our fun for the game. I believe streamers get it worse but that's more down to today's culture and social media madness rather than just this game.
The amount of negative and positive interactions should not be equal.
I think throwing is not trying your best to win. off-meta picks can be bad for the team but you can't just tell a Genji one-trick to play McCree because if he is bad at McCree then your communication is throwing.
Imo the biggest issue is the lack of penalty for toxicity. My friends and I get at least one hateful/racist/intentionally throwing person per hour played. All three of us always report them and yet none of us has gotten a "your report led to action" notification in literal years. They just let people do and say whatever they want with no penalty.
I bet having in game group SRs for weekend team tournaments or something would do wonders for this game. People could get friends together or join a team that wants to try a specific strat that wouldn’t work with randos in solo queue, they could try to emulate OWL team strats and make OWL more popular, but people could still do the solo queue mode if they want to play the meta at the time. More options for more types of people, none of this one size fits all crap we’ve been putting up with that barely works for everyone.
On PS4 you're only allowed to avoid 3 people. I believe the same is for p.c. Why can't we have more than just 3? To like block them entirely? If the entire match can be recorded and replayed by blizzard. If said individuals are being trolled harassed etc. Then why can't our requests as the hard-core fans and players be accepted?
That’s across all platforms.
I suggest stacking with other players to increase you avoid slots
the bad part about locking stuff behind the paywall, is that sometimes empowers people to act poorly because "I paid $X to be here to do what I want" I hate that people act like this. Its not just an overwatch problem its a current society problem...
Today in comp I turned on the chat window only to be told to kill myself. Like how is this even a thing ever?
Yes we won and yes it was my teammate.
Whenever someone says that, just reply with “enjoy the silence buddy :)”
I'm a big fan of recording absolutely everything in-game. I don't know if legally you are considered to be in a public space, but at least effectively you are and there needs to be some kind of policing and accountability. It's not a private space, you've joined a public lobby.
IP bans all the way. The glaring issue with OW1 is the business model benefits from smurfs and cheaters making new accounts, they can't let that happen for OW2.
IP bans are useless lol
@@lollel4532 How?
@@thedofflin you can just change your IP very easy
The thumbnail is hilarious
Actually appreciate the different voices for the debates. Was a decent amount streamer and top 500 talk but I like svb bringing it back to general impressions and bringing up other games early on. Stylosa also had good point with the game incentives a lot issues.
Something that doesnt get mentioned is the elitism and ego from top players or any "high rank" players. Not a lot of respect given to quick play warriors unlike other communities like fighting games or Apex. Others games also give more respect to casual-competitive players who play comp but don't want it to be a job.
Last note that haven't heard mentioned yet is how thirsty the community is. Idk why but look at find-a-group and there will be so many "e-girl/boy looking for dom" type groups. I can see why people with feminine voices would think Overwatch is the worst community. What I hear from some people I play with is "You turned them down then they just get sexist and throw the game". Really can't think of another fps community that is this filled with this many thirsty ass mfs
Edit: nice glad fareeha mentions the huge difference between casual and competitive community
Trash talk and toxicity in games. Its a very multifaceted and diverse topic. There is a line between trash talk and toxicity. And its different for everyone and overwatch has some weird interactions. Like I get trash talking. Get into your opponent's head, let them know that you know that you're better than them. I play enough pick up basketball understand the deep psychological warfare of a simple action completely taking an opponent off their game. But in overwatch, you sometimes get your teammates coming after you. And that just makes no sense. You're insulting your teammate, because you want to win and they're not playing to a standard you deem necessary for winning. You believe that insulting them is going to make them play better? That's like passing the ball to your teammate and saying "you haven't made a shot all game, you'll probably miss this one too"
People being toxic online unfortunately is just what the world does these days, which really sucks. You dont see this from 99% of people in real space because behind the screen there is no danger. What your account gets banned? Just get a new one. If some of the stuff I see or here online came out of an opponent's mouth on the basketball court, there is a good chance you wind up with a basketball to the face or worse.
I still think not having an option for high level players to group with more than 2 is a huge problem or having a team queue option would go a long way
I came into this video with a dislike for UnsaltedSalt, but after watching it I realize he isn't the person that I thought he was and he's actually very intelligent and understands alot of things about this game. Good on you Salt and good video everyone.
Same, his attitude in clips gave me the opposite results from this discussion.
SVB is one of the biggest champion of the community and its players! big love
I think people just need to drop the idea that things are considered meta so anything else is throwing or sucks. We have to hold ourselves accountable because we create the kind of game we want to play and by acting like this it becomes selfish and makes things toxic which in turn extends to other players the more we play. Just need to get over the idea you have to play a certain way and learn to just work around those that refuse to switch or cant play another hero.
From there we tighten the consequences for people who are actually actively breaking community standards. No more slaps on the wrist.
Drop the meta mentality and learn to just accept ok we have a one trick let's work with it and be a TEAM and COMMUNICATE. We're so quick to just accept it's a loss. Ok wel ifld rather lose but try vs have a shit time and then lose and just have a sour day.
At the start of every match, I report my whole team and the enemy team just incase they are toxic.
We should absolutely be able to hop into a quick play game while waiting for a competitive queue and then quick play queues would be nonexistent and comp players would be able to have fun playing the game despite a 25 minute queue time
no new insights for me, but it's a very important conversation our community needs to be a part of. A lot of our community is so exclusive in the subgroups they hang around in and in the opinions they hold, and we need an open-minded conversation like this. Also we need a freaking OW streamer support group at this point.
This debate is the brainchild of Skiesti right? Thank you Skiesti!
edit: today i learnt stylosa is OLD old :3
The losing loads of SR for a loss is the key thing that causes the toxicity. They make you grind by using this system and it's fcked.
They should have more categories for role queue where instead of a tank queue you have a main tank and an off tank queue etc.
These people are talking about the "Overwatch community" but are in the top 5-10% of players in the game...... "It's the most toxic community" - UnsaltedSalt never played Rust I guess.
Love your channel and content can you put these debates on iTunes podcasts?
All the podcast links are in the video description!
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa
Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-community-debate
Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265
I think one of the reasons one-tricking is such an issue in a game like overwatch is because the heroes (especially in tank and support roles) are all so fundamentally different to one another mechanically that skill sets don't translate over. If you sink 400 hours into mastering Mercy then it won't make you any better at playing Ana or Bap (obviously I mean aim/positioning and not game sense), being an amazing rein does not automatically make you a brilliant Winston. I don't have a personal issue with people one tricking a hero but even if they have the best of intentions and want to switch to help their team comp then they end up hurting them even more by lacking the needed skill set.
As a support main, I can't even explain how different my abilities are on each hero. I play my best on mercy because I know the flow by heart... But I feel like I get tunnel vision with zen/Lucio because I don't know their flow. My Ana feels like I get no value besides the healing, my nades rarely get followed up and my non healing aim is questionable at best lol. It could be a legit 600-700 difference from my best support to worst support. Changing in game could accidentally lead to us losing just because of that difference
The ping system should be thought over a lot. I play both OW and Apex. OW is way more intesive and fast-paced. Half of the time you can't simply ping smth and expect people to do stuff. In Apex you need way less team coordination to win compared to OW. Yes, the coordination is definitely required but not even close to the same level as in OW.
All of the critiques of Overwatch being too team reliant, too role reliant, too voice com reliant etc, are in my opinion a huge part of why it's such a gripping and landmark IP in the first place. That's why it won game of the year as an FPS, because of those differences to other conventional FPS titles.
Hey, when is the console vs pc vid gonna be uploaded?
In the next couple days at some point! :)
Whoa! Stylosa! Never seen him collab with anyone besides... Tim I think his name was? Or Rob? Hellifiknow, either way I had to click after seeing his name on this one😎😎😎
I think the worst part of the bad side of the Overwatch community, is that the toxic mindset isn't anything that develops throughout a match anymore. It's been ingrained in a lot of people that "the game is bad" even before they enter a match.
So often I see someone write GLHF in chat before match start, and then someone else responds with "No, this is Overwatch. Can't have fun". Like, what the hell people?! I know that some just say it jokingly, but there is a degree of truth to any joke, and jokes repeated too frequently end up losing the comedic side and become reality.
Honestly, people should fix their mentality or stop playing. Why play the game if you are already in the mindset that you can't have fun in the game? It's absolutely absurd to me.
I think what the community really needs, are some good examples set by potential idols (content creators, streamers, pro players, etc). It might seem negligible to do, but I do believe that bad mindsets foster even worse mindsets over time, and this kinda toxic mentality has rotted away the core of a lot of players' desire to enjoy the game and contribute to a decent environment.
Also, I think the endorsement system should be forced/mandatory after each round (or when you quit a round early). Make it so that people have to consciously endorse 3 other players each time, force people to try and find some good in the game, and give back some respect to others in the community. Most people just end up ignoring it anyways - and it might also help these toxic people get more endorsements in general and potentially feel better about themselves and feel appreciated by the community, thus slowly improving their mental state when logging into the next game.
Also, at the end of the match, give each player on both teams a card. Let people upvote whoever they want and don't let others feel left out just because they weren't the main carry or the one who did X thing the best.
Choking is not throwing. If you are literally standing still and not playing. Thats throwing.
Yes more content. Always love it these come out.
It would be cool if the were a system that forced you to pick in between solo queueing were you just want to chill and play on your own and group queuing which indicates that you want to play as a team. It could better to separate the different player bases in rank.
I think sth like this is already there. If U q solo u mostlikly get other solos or maybe duos if U duo the enemies have 1 duo aswell
Hey SVB, will there be another console vs pc event?
Regarding OW's core design philosophy encouraging toxicity:
I've really come around to Paladin's design: You're locked into your hero the entire match, and like a moba, you gain xp points through time/performance that can be used to buy items so you can better adapt to your matchup, ontop of the talent and card system. so basically the counterplay is shifted more towards individual skill and loadout. Even though this is a completely different design philosophy that would never actually be implemented in OW, i really think something like it would help so much. Because true flex players are a tiny minority of the population, most have a couple of mains, and we generally prefer to stay on our original hero choice. Having to switch, or even just being pestered to switch to a hero you dont want to play, to win a match, is indeed a huge source of toxicity, nobody is having fun at that point. People say that hero switching gives overwatch its identity but... does it really? clearly its part of the current design philosophy, but is it something WE LIKE?? i dont think people actually like it. overwatch is overwatch because of how it feels, its polish, aesthetics, movement, etc.
Of course people will still be flamed for picking off meta, but at some point players will shut up and play, since theres no possible swapping. also, something like a talent/card/item system would allow players to take measures to address an unbalanced match themselves. giving players a sense of control is huge in a game where you often feel at the mercy of your team.
eg, if you think your supps arent healing enough, maybe theres an item that gives you a small amount of passive health regen/ lifesteal. This could also provide a place for us to try balance suggestions that would be too polarizing as hero changes. in paladins some talents can only be unlocked after reaching a certain experience level with that hero, so we could have talents that make off meta heroes viable at high elos, that are only accessible to experienced players so they dont wreck low elos. like, idk, pharah takes less damage in the air, but more on land. or bastion can move slowly in sentry form, with increased spread while moving, but smaller spread while still. or even slightly changing how heroes play. like a talent could make soldier into a certifiable offhealer.
and before people freak out about balancing, keep in mind that its far easier to remove and rework a broken item, than to remove and rework a broken HERO. superficially it seems like it would be more complicated to balance, but it would actually be easier on a macro level, especially in 5v5. things are pretty balanced now, but i think it'd be much easier to create loadouts with the potential to make off-meta heroes viable at high ranks, that dont break them at lower ranks, than reworking the entire hero and changing their identity, right? food for thought
40:20 They could do something silmar to what they were saying I was thinking like a streamer hide mode where it would either make your name a generic common name that would change every match or do some kind of symbols, so it's make people know it's a streamer but wouldn't know who exactly. but I like my first idea of it changing your name to a generic name every game. and if they still wannted to make money off it make it like 15$ and you have to link your twitch to your battle net account so normal people couldn;t use it. I mean they could it;s not hard but still
What’s really scares me about OW2 is what happens if the majority of OW1s player base hates the PVP changes??? What if most pros, streamers, and just the normal OW1 player base at large hate the 5v5, role perks, hero changes, etc.??? It’s not like we can just go back to OW1!? Once OW2 is out, we lose what is known as OW1 as it is! Maybe we get an arcade mode that’s just normal OW1, but no one who who exclusively played comp in OW1 will want to play that all the time.
I actually made a poll by questioning the same question in several lobbies I had. I don't know what to do with these information and I know no one asked for it but here ya go if interested.
So basically before the round started I asked "beer or wine?" just to see how the community reacts. Most people didn't reply. Followed by people who just answered the question.
Unfortunately I don't have any numbers but it "feels" like the third most replies were either joking (as in "I take both" / "Wodka" etc.) or changing the topic into something weird/sexual (e. g. "d***juice" / "ass"). The minority of players were actually upset (for example "wtf").
However, no one ever sweared at me just for asking a silly question. (looking at you gta V and rb6 solo queue)
this is going to tilt people and maybe cause hate but ill say it nicely and logically. i don't like how basically 3 people don't belong in this conversation. i don't know much about skiesti but from what i know she still plays the game and that more than half. syl doesn't really play the game, does reactions, and covers other games and even if he says he plays offline it's still hear say we don't know. fareeha same thing. doesn't really play, plays apex and other games and does variety like singing and music streams, and even if you say "well they were in the community they remember what it was like" i want to hear from people actively in the community. also sty was kind of a huge D-rider in the OW2 showcase and now says "oh the community is bad". and finally the worst offence here is having salt on and here i will not hold back. this hypocrite cannot say this game is one of the worst communities ever while being the kid who screams in every game, rages, calls people pussy's in chat, makes fun of people without mics, has told people they shouldn't exist, and has said things like "i fucked your mom" "THEN DO SOMETHIG PUSSY" "now im fucken tilted (slams text)" "you're a waste of human life" etc. etc. to summarize 3 people shouldn't be here 2 for lack of play because they have just left the toxic community, and one for being one of the worst baby raging toxic pieces of shit in the community talking about how "oh overwatch is by far the worst community i've ever been apart of". skiesti is fine (again all i know is she still plays the game) and hell even get 3 plat players or GM's, this is a really bad roster for this discussion. FYI salts most popular video on his youtube is titled "Most TOXIC Overwatch Streamer? | Stream Highlights #1" not even a year old video starting the video by saying "fuck (X) players" and naming like 8 hero's.
especially at high elo people just have a huge issue with caring more about their video game than the people they are playing with. lack of perspective.
You just said "at high elo." WHEN THE FUCK ELSE ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO CARE ABOUT THE GAME SERIOUSLY?
@@yoshirox4eva I’m sorry you should never care more about the game then the person. Thought that was obvious. Do you not get that? Yeah not sorry.
@@StorminNormin411 have you ever played video games or lived life? Fuck everyone else. Be the master of your own destiny or whatever
@@squillager4434 Agreed, but being the master of your destiny does not mean harrassing and blaming others
@@Draggy36 if someone's doing bad sometimes they have to be told
Gaming communities get worse over time as player bases decrease and you're left with only the sweatiest of neck beards. I saw it with Smite, and CoD, and CSGO.
Also Toxicity isn't going get fixed in 5v5. There's going to be more spot light on the individual and their failures.
I feel like lack of new content makes the community more toxic as well. People are generally happier when their game consistently has new things. i feel like that's partly why Apex is less toxic. people busy talking about all the new things being added every month to be toxic. Watch when ow2 drops toxicity will drop as well !
Whit only one tank I doubt it
@@reynauldwhistles2338 I think you'll be surprised. With main tanks removed from the game it's going to feel a lot more Brawley. You're going to feel like you're actions have more weight to them. And you won't have to rely on your team as much as before.
@@Kject except I can see the future and people are just yelling at the only tank to swap to the only meta tank.
@@reynauldwhistles2338 no less than they already do when your tanks pick ball/hog or dva/zarya. the nice part is with ow2 it will matter less when they actually do pick a non-meta tank.
@@Kject I dont understand why you think that, there is going to be ONLY ONE TANK ITS GOING TO BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER if you have the "wrong" tank people are going to get mad very fast, rn its imposible to avoid the dps mains getting tickets instalocking Hog or dva but you can get a main tank to compensate for them but thats not going to be a thing in ow2, I love your optimism for ow2 tanking but you dont play enough tank and it shows (this is the part where you lie about maining tank like everyone I have talked to online but queue times says otherwise and blaa blaa blaa)
Sty hit on a thing with that bit about Counterstrike servers that formed communities helping regulate the toxicity normally seen in the game with solo queue and playing with the social misfits and degenerates out there. SVB does this very thing with his Discord and PUGS and I'll say, it's saved my interest in the game and I love the community fostered by the community. I think it's worth ignoring the game outside of playing with friends or community.
Blizzard is the problem. They literally had the game in a great state. Seagull tweeted that the game was great and in the best state, then they changed everything... Blizzard ignores the player base and does what they think people want instead. They won't fix overwatch. OW2 is going to be poodoo. I love playing mt and ot duo's. Now you have beefier, stronger tanks which tank dps is already a problem. Also adding WoW style world quests to OW2 with the name hero missions sounds smart 🤔
A thing I constantly was thinking about while listening to you 5 talk was a saying that I rather enjoy. "Boiling water will make an egg hard, but a potato soft."
Honestly, it isn't about being able to grow 'thick" skin or being able to take it, some creators or streamers just can't and really, it shouldn't be expected of them to do so.
Bad actors should be shown that their act is bad and that it's ruining the performance of others, and these slaps on the wrists aren't doing much to alleviate the problem.
The very basis of the game is a bully mentality.
Hey look they're down 2 we can take advantage. Or sombra is a great example of a bully mentality, hey look I have every advantage, invisible, wall hacks, hacks and I can freely disengage so im going to bully you where if I didn't have every advantage I wouldn't.
The point is people are bullies. So you can't really be mad at a "mob" mentality and play this game at the same time, at least not if your opinion is supposed to he taken seriously
Ima be honest. I had quite a few games with Skiesti in the past. She was rude af to me and other people too. Played lots of games with her. Believe it or not we were actually chill and nice about it but she was really toxic to us. We played really good too. This was a while back but she's the only one on this video that is a hypocrite.
Private profiles are just so sus and create a weird envoirment. Like you have nothing to hide. You guys got into the same game that means you are the same elo and are both equally as good. Dont be ashamed to have 700 hours on mercy just be you. I don't get why you would need to hide it.
It's the only ranked game I play but Holy shit we have a crap community. Every other game there's a leaver because apparently losing one team fight is unacceptable.
I played league and csgo for years. Overwatch sucks but not nearly as bad as those communities. LoL has worse overall toxicity and csgo has a mix of racists and throwers.
Don't even play overwatch anymore, but just love SVB and your brilliant content. Keep up the great work 😊
At a certain point about 2 years ago I decided to stop using voice, hide chat and force myself to say gg even when I really want to flame the shit out of my teammates. It's a much more positive experience.
Hey you probably get this a lot but we need the audio levels to be adjusted in post. Fareeha is very hard to hear, at least in the beginning. I really enjoy your podcasts, but its hard for me to listen to you guys in the car just because of the audio levels.
idk if its just me but i have a feeling the blizzard employees arent being paid much because the current business model doesn't allow for constant flow of money in the first place unlike the new games like fortnite, apex and cod who have a healthy ecosystem
i wouldnt be too miffed if overwatch 2 turned up with like 12 PVE missions, minecraft dungeons does this and i love it
I have never had a problem as a normal person like ever sometimes in competitive but it's rare to even there maybe it's my low-rank everyone sucks.
a lot of people say "grow thin skin" till it happens to them and there upset about that its happening to them. everyone needs to work toward a nicer environment.
I’d like to see a review system like they have for competitive chess, where it points out mistakes you make, odds of winning going up or down and points out good things you did when you watch a vod, so for example on Orisa it will point out a wasted shield or bad positioning, point out this play from the enemy team was good, this play from your hanzo was good and tell you what you should’ve done to help. It should basically barrage you and tell you why you suck and tell you everything bad YOU did and tell you everything good everyone else did to force you to see that you are the problem, you are stuck in X rank cause you make this many mistakes! Do this for everyone in every rank
It would honestly be great, however the game is very complex compared to chess with countless reasons. The idea is great and a few additions could be done to assist players.
We’re at a point where there wouldn’t even be an overwatch community without SVB
Lmao Fareeha probably the most toxic one there , she got no room to speak on this shit, especially the way she talks to people on coms
i get a lot of hate for the hero i pick. I main brig and i get SOOOOO much hate and it is soo uncalled for
There are so many human elements in society, let alone any circumstances in an environment such as a game, to which people can freely type and say things as anonymous bots churning out toxic behavior to which they're indifferent to.
The responsibility is on all of us to step up and say something. It's not just for OW, but if you see something happening that is wrong, speak up and reconsider their perspective.
A lot of times people can't even answer why they're being toxic. Just straight up ask them, "What did I do to harbor this kind of intolerance from you or what made you so susceptible to such terrible information that conditioned you to think this way?" 99% of the time they have no idea what to say, but sometimes, it opens up a productive dialogue.
The vast majority of people that just stay in and play games, the more they get involved in the virtual realm, and the more they are disconnected from actual human interaction. People forgot to understand that we are all fighting a battle that the next person knows nothing about. Whether it's seeking validation or acceptance, or projecting insecurities that manifest into toxic behavior further enabled by an environment that doesn't punish it (the internet or any in-game chat) but justifies that aforementioned behavior under the guise of freedom of speech.
I learned along time ago that you cannot control how people treat you, but you can control how you react to it. Do you give up and say, "it is what it is?" and keep feeling beaten down that nothing is changing or do you speak up and figure out how to have each other's backs?
Perspective and empathy, is what a vast majority of the population lacks. But in order to see how they view the world and why they're toxic, you have to look through their lense and figure out why their aperture is so narrow. People play games for different reasons, but the majority of gamers play as an escape from the outside world to be something else for a few hours. This normally means they're seeking to fulfill a connection to play, every human requires this need (basic psychology). The pandemic has exacerbated this need and people turned to other things as a result. Look at mental health here in the states in particular, during the pandemic. A recent study in the NY Times stated that 1 in 12 adults in America are having suicidal thoughts. Let that soak in for a second, that means if you're playing a 6v6 game like OW, 1 of your peers is most likely having suicidal thoughts.
More often than not, a bully is just a victims story that hasn't been understood yet, so figure out why they're like that. It's hard work, but doing the right thing and trying to help somebody is never easy. In any case, we've all lost people or had something profound happen to us at some point in our lives. Be kind to each other and try to understand we all came from the same place.
A little exercise that has helped me with my mental health is, every morning I wake up, I look in the mirror and read a piece of paper that says "name 3 things you're grateful for" and "every month try to do a nice thing for your family, a friend, and yourself." Try to name different things you're grateful for so you're not going through through motions and you're positively rewarding yourself to be grateful for little things. That way an attitude of gratitude is always in the back of your mind.
Sorry this comment was so long and wasn't really about OW. I don't want to come off as sanctimonious. Just thought I'd chime in and provide some feedback for the community in case anybody is feeling alone or isolated. You're not alone!
SVB, big thanks as always for helping put this together.
blizzard making mobile games like candy crush if overwatch 2 fails. SO TRU - This some real talk on this podcast. Nice one
Nah, Wow is still their biggest seller by far.
Wow! Really loved this video. Clicked because of the awesome thumbnail haha. I watched for Stylosa and it was cool getting exposure to these other interesting creators. Thanks for putting this together and great job moderating the discussion, everyone had equal time to talk and I thought that was cool.
Does anyone have a link to the leak that SVB was talking about in 1:06:44
If the sr-system was different it would fix a lot of this. If there would be a way to calculate sr based on individual performance losing a match wouldn’t start a war between people. People who focus sr in long term are probably much less toxic. Perhaps streamers play some part of creating an unrealistic goal for people as how good they should be. And people tend to judge themselves as humans based on their skill and sr.
cant touch the grass or go outside, everything is on fire.
I don't know... in my experience I get flamed a lot more in Apex than I ever did in OW. I tend to be better at OW though, so maybe that's why?
Hidden rank sounds mad. Like, you can show it off to your friends, but other people on your team don't need to see it as fuel for toxicity. Great idea.
No, its absurd. Maybe even hide lvl and nickname and play with complete anonyms?
@@griglog Sure
This gotta be one of the most depressing 2 hours ive ever heard. I love this game and i play qp,arcade and comp. Hell i have 200 hours in mystery heroes alone :)
Next time for the love of god please have on a person who is NOT playing comp at all. I promise you it wont sound so depressing. Jeff said back in the day that most people play quickplay, but comp is the most played mode if that makes sense.
edit: Oh yeah i forgot. Im lost for words hearing Skiestis experience in Overwatch. I knew shit was was but that was really hard to listen to. Stay strong
Stylosa was 1,000,000% correct! Blizz didn't even think people being mean/toxic would be an issue at all! It's the same reason their in-house play test mean nothing! They don't flame each other, they don't rage quit and throw! Blizz has no idea what they're doing as far as healthy balance changes for OW or OW2!
I don't know if I play in a bubble or something but I personally have had few of these blatantly toxic experiences in my games, and I play from gold to masters (each of my roles is basically a very different rank...). The closest I get is some sarcastic ridicule for having Endorsement Rank 5, but overall, I've rarely had to deal with this kind of thing. Then again, I'm not a streamer, and I guess having your personality be public gives all those faceless, malicious people on the internet a hard edge...
On the “throwing” topic, today I had a player who started as a diff character and swapped to doomfist when the enemy counter his first pick. He chose doom into a sombra and pharah, and said me, as the support, was the problem. Is that considered throwing when they have two, basically counters, to him and he refused to change but also said I was the problem?
Since the last OW2 stream I've been thinking that if the dev team want to prioritize queue times (as they should if they want to remain relevant and with big numbers to show the investors at activlizzard) the future of overwatch is embracing the clown fiesta pepega team deathmatch (which I personally enjoy, mind you). The changes to team composition with 1 tank that is capable of getting more kills seem to point in this direction. If we go by how blizz treats their wow hardcore competitive fans it seems rather likely to me that they will bank on the loyal player to stick around and try to make things work (while complaining) and will cater to as much casuals as possible. And for casuals I think the game is more fun when you can go apeshit looking for kills. I'm really sorry for all serious ow players, but I don't think the future's yours.
That was a really good discussion. Unfortunately the game is absolutely dying and almost dead. And now „for real“.
The sad thing is that Blizzard WILL NOT hear you.
There are WAY more things in the game implemented that shouldnt be a thing you guys unfortunately not talking about.
You think PC is bad? Try Console. NOT excusing bad behaviour in general but this sort of behaviours are in pretty much every game.