Thank you, thank you, thank you, Mo! This finally makes sense to me! One request, on future videos for topics like this, can you cut the music please? It's really distracting when you're taking notes..... Thank you again!
@@alexwolf6263 if you decide to change the drill, just plug and redrill. I've shot 800's with used urethane balls that I've bought off of Craigslist for $10. Just plug and drill it however I want.
This is awesome Mo Monday’s on Bowling Science this is awesome... 🤙🏽😊🤙🏽 Great Content on layout for a No Thumb 2Hand bowler... love Mo he’s The Best!!! 👍🏽😊👌🏽 Thanks Mikey!!! #BowlingScience
There is a pic of the 6 layouts we recommended to start on the channel page, click COMMUNITY at the top of ruclips.net/user/bowlingscience and scroll down a couple posts. Every 2 hander has a different PAP just about, but the effective layouts are mostly the same. I use 4" to 4.5" pin to pap for my stronger layouts, and 1.25" to 2.25" for my weaker layouts.
So when you spin the ball that you just mapped out in the video, will it spin up on the theoretical PSA? or will it spin up closer to a line 6 3/4" from pin to between finger holes?
Amazing video, not many proshops near me understand how to make layouts for us two handed bowlers. The only thing that we cant figure out is where you got the distance for the theoretical PSA from PIN. Did you measure where the thumb whole was on a different ball from the players arsenal?
@@BowlingScience ok thanks. He always just goes off my other balls he previously drilled. The first one he drilled for me he just went off the oil lines
Hello there. I have a question. :) I am one hand bowler who would like to start playing ( practicing ) 2 handed style. Does my Pin to PAP change if I go to 2 handed ? Hope i get an answer. Thank you in advance.
Absolutely. If you remove your thumb from the ball your PAP will change location and you'd have to remeasure the ball's dynamics with pin to PAP again. Just filling a thumb hole on a 2h does NOT a 2H layout make.
I seem to get lost when he draws the midline. For me my PAP is 5 7/8➡️by⬇️1 1/8 so technically I would go up the 1 1/8 from the pap and then draw the midline. Does that sound about right?
sounds right to me. remember the last coordinate is pin above the RF TO PAP line, not pin above midline. you will likely have layouts at or just above the midline with pin placement
Thanks Mike really appreciate the help. Turns out my pap 5 1/4 by 3 1/8 which puts the pin above the middle finger. Pin is still 1” above RF line so all seems well.
Technically yes, however, the "theoretical PSA" that he drew 6 3/4 through the pin/center of gravity mark, is NOT how you would measure a PSA to PAP. The PSA is marked by some kind of specific dot on asyms, you probably know that already.
I just bought a CAP. Im a two handed righty and I track through my middle finger. My speed is mediocre. I bought the ball to help me out with super dry headed burnt lanes and want a smooth arcing motion that doesn’t over hook. Any layout you would suggest?
In your video last year you say to stay away from pin to PAP distances between 2.5 to 4 inches. Has this changed due to the extra depth of the finger holes?
We do 2 3/4 on weaker cored balls instead of 2 1/2.... still avoid that range though on 2 handers as it will cause twitchy strong backend reaction in most situations.
The lowest you want the pin is .75" above the line from ring finger to PAP. It will roll like a pin down, remember pin downs are still above the center of the grip with thumbers... the center of grip is different without a thumb. This changes things. For people with paps way down, The pin can end up looking downish on shorter pins...
@@BowlingScience thank you so much for the clarity I'm kind of a lone wolf in the two handed bowling world right now. My bowling center does not have a pro shop or next to zero knowledge about drilling layouts especially for two handers. So this insight is honestly a God send thank you
Mikey, thanks for all your input. I have one more question... I just had my PSO plug up my arsenal. After rewatching this video, I noticed Mo said to drill the finger holes 3 1/2" deep on symmetricals to maintain asymmetrical stability. My PSO went 2" - 2 1/4 " deep on my finger holes. How does this affect ball motion? Are my balls still considered legally drilled? Should I go back and have him drill them to the recommended distance of 3 1/2"? Thanks in advance.
I have a 6 over and 2 1/8 down pap, I can’t get this layout on the ball. If I try to put the pin 1 1/2 above my midline my pap looks like a hockey stick. Is there anything different I need to do in order to lay a ball out using this method because of my pap?
Yes. Remember the midline isn't truly the rf to pap line. Put the pin just below the midline. It should end up still about 1 inch above the line from you rf to your pap
@@BowlingScience Thank you for the reply, I will give that a try. I have another question, for my pap i need to mark 2 1/8 up but at what angle or reference point do I use to move up? I thought I was supposed to use the VAL but not sure how to get it with this type of layout. I was just kinda eyeing it, which i'm sure isn't the correct way. Is there a way to find the VAL before drawing the midline?
You find midline by connecting the pin height arc with the 2 1/8 PAP arc with a line tangent to both. The VAL is 90 degrees perpendicular to that line passing through the PAP. We are doing another video soon to further explain!
I'm slightly confused. I thought the PSA to PAP distance was static at 6 3/4" on a symmetrical ball and any adjustments to that distance wouldn't matter to ball motion. Thus, only the Pin to Pap and Pin above the ring finger line would vary. Please help me understand this further. Thanks.
Len, the distance between the Pin and PSA is fixed by definition. The true PSA after drilling will be the same regardless of "cg position" (only on symms) but that is determined by the location of the finger holes in relation to the pin and the horizontal PAP coordinate.
We use the same "PSA" distances as we would on an assym for ease and consistency between symms and asymms. Yes technically that number doesn't matter as long as you are on the positive side of the ball. But you have to assign a value for layout triangulation purposes... so might as well use the ideal asymm location.
both use the traditional cartesian system, but are defined by the last number. the Pin height used here is different from the pin buffer and controls motion differently.
Quick question..i just had my thimb hole plugged on a few balls always been a no thimb bowler. Will it affect the way the ball rolls or will it roll the same? Thanks for any info.
@adam parker it’s not bad necessarily. Just different. I had a Brunswick Meanstreak and I could throw it straight up the 5 board and watch it hit the pocket. With the thumb hole plugged I had to move quite a bit left and aim for the ten pen to hit the pocket. That’s probably not the case for all balls but it was the case for me
Definitely find a new shop. Sounds like a shop that just wants your money and isn’t very good at what they do. Sorry to hear. The purpose of this channel is to provide free information so that interested bowlers and shops can grow and improve.
@@BowlingScience I gtta check it out, my flare rings are rolling over my finger holes and I’m tryna find out a layout to prevent that cus maybe it’s the houses I bowl at or sumn cus I feel like some of my bowling balls don’t hook, just spins and goes straight! My black widow 2.0 and hammer 3D offset just doesn’t hook back to the pocket and just goes long ! But when I slow the speed down then it hooks , I’m confused on what to do! Tried knocking the surface down and boom still the same thing
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
At what point do ball designers become eligible for induction into the Bowling Hall of Fame? Mo has had such a significant impact on the Sport
K k
Mo is such a legend.
Nice! Clear explanation. Happy to see a verification the hypothetical mass bias (PSA) location. Using this process for years. Thanks for the post.
Thanks for your support Mr Parsons! Great minds think alike!
Great content 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
It would be great if you could make more content for no thumb bowlers.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Mo! This finally makes sense to me! One request, on future videos for topics like this, can you cut the music please? It's really distracting when you're taking notes..... Thank you again!
Awesome, thanks for posting this. I can learn to layout my bowling balls. Looks easy though
I’m about to take my bowling ball to this guy
Unfortunately he passed away. RIP MO.
@@jesslloydjansen 😢😢😢 no wonder he didn’t accept my friend request on Facebook
Idk what I'd do without Mo......
... ruh roh.
Lookin good mo, luckily I havent lost my thumb just yet ;)
After watching this video about 40 times. I think I get it
Shits confusing isnt it. Ive been looking at my tenacity grit for week debating how i need it done.
@@alexwolf6263 if you decide to change the drill, just plug and redrill. I've shot 800's with used urethane balls that I've bought off of Craigslist for $10. Just plug and drill it however I want.
Wouldn’t a psa to pap of +6” make the ball roll without flare and with deflection at pins ?
This is awesome Mo Monday’s on Bowling Science this is awesome... 🤙🏽😊🤙🏽 Great Content on layout for a No Thumb 2Hand bowler... love Mo he’s The Best!!! 👍🏽😊👌🏽 Thanks Mikey!!! #BowlingScience
Educational as always!
If you don't use grips, so the holes are smaller, do you drill even deeper than 3.5 inches?
I'm thinking of making the switch
From storm to Brunswick
Just a question are these the only coordinates for every 2 hander or are their other options. Any one have suggestions. Mikey help
There is a pic of the 6 layouts we recommended to start on the channel page, click COMMUNITY at the top of ruclips.net/user/bowlingscience and scroll down a couple posts. Every 2 hander has a different PAP just about, but the effective layouts are mostly the same. I use 4" to 4.5" pin to pap for my stronger layouts, and 1.25" to 2.25" for my weaker layouts.
So when you spin the ball that you just mapped out in the video, will it spin up on the theoretical PSA? or will it spin up closer to a line 6 3/4" from pin to between finger holes?
Theoretically the latter. I am going to film some determinator footage to verify!
So is the 2 3/4 pin to PAP, 6 1/4 PSA to PAP, and Pin 1 1/4 above ring finger all constants? Should these all stay the same no matter your PAP?
The pin will be in different spots depending on the pap
Amazing video, not many proshops near me understand how to make layouts for us two handed bowlers. The only thing that we cant figure out is where you got the distance for the theoretical PSA from PIN. Did you measure where the thumb whole was on a different ball from the players arsenal?
I justbhad a no thumb ball drilled today on my rubicon and the pin is just above the bridge. How should that work?
Depends on your pap... your Pro Shop should use your PAP to layout balls...
@@BowlingScience ok thanks. He always just goes off my other balls he previously drilled. The first one he drilled for me he just went off the oil lines
You're prolly gonna roll over your ring finger a ton....
Hello there. I have a question. :) I am one hand bowler who would like to start playing ( practicing ) 2 handed style. Does my Pin to PAP change if I go to 2 handed ? Hope i get an answer. Thank you in advance.
Absolutely. If you remove your thumb from the ball your PAP will change location and you'd have to remeasure the ball's dynamics with pin to PAP again.
Just filling a thumb hole on a 2h does NOT a 2H layout make.
How does the bonus ball perform on heavy oil
And it tracks right over the holes , great
???
Just like your legacy rolls over the holes,
how move 1 inch down from pap ?
I seem to get lost when he draws the midline. For me my PAP is 5 7/8➡️by⬇️1 1/8 so technically I would go up the 1 1/8 from the pap and then draw the midline. Does that sound about right?
sounds right to me. remember the last coordinate is pin above the RF TO PAP line, not pin above midline. you will likely have layouts at or just above the midline with pin placement
Thanks Mike really appreciate the help. Turns out my pap 5 1/4 by 3 1/8 which puts the pin above the middle finger. Pin is still 1” above RF line so all seems well.
Thanks Mo and Mikey! This is very helpful. Do the same rules apply to assyms?
Technically yes, however, the "theoretical PSA" that he drew 6 3/4 through the pin/center of gravity mark, is NOT how you would measure a PSA to PAP. The PSA is marked by some kind of specific dot on asyms, you probably know that already.
I just bought a CAP. Im a two handed righty and I track through my middle finger. My speed is mediocre. I bought the ball to help me out with super dry headed burnt lanes and want a smooth arcing motion that doesn’t over hook. Any layout you would suggest?
Control layout. 5.25 x 6.25 x .75 up using our new no thumb sysytem
Bowling Science awesome I appreciate it
In your video last year you say to stay away from pin to PAP distances between 2.5 to 4 inches. Has this changed due to the extra depth of the finger holes?
We do 2 3/4 on weaker cored balls instead of 2 1/2.... still avoid that range though on 2 handers as it will cause twitchy strong backend reaction in most situations.
Do pin down layouts work for two handed bowlers? If so do I just reverse the measurement to put the pin below the mid line?
The lowest you want the pin is .75" above the line from ring finger to PAP. It will roll like a pin down, remember pin downs are still above the center of the grip with thumbers... the center of grip is different without a thumb. This changes things. For people with paps way down, The pin can end up looking downish on shorter pins...
@@BowlingScience thank you so much for the clarity I'm kind of a lone wolf in the two handed bowling world right now. My bowling center does not have a pro shop or next to zero knowledge about drilling layouts especially for two handers. So this insight is honestly a God send thank you
Mikey, thanks for all your input. I have one more question... I just had my PSO plug up my arsenal. After rewatching this video, I noticed Mo said to drill the finger holes 3 1/2" deep on symmetricals to maintain asymmetrical stability. My PSO went 2" - 2 1/4 " deep on my finger holes. How does this affect ball motion? Are my balls still considered legally drilled? Should I go back and have him drill them to the recommended distance of 3 1/2"? Thanks in advance.
Drill them 3.5 deep. Cores are designed to have a thumb hole... the ball roll better with deep fingers.
@@BowlingScience Thanks, again.
Legal yes, should you rip out good inserts to drill deeper? No. When you replace your inserts in
I have a 6 over and 2 1/8 down pap, I can’t get this layout on the ball. If I try to put the pin 1 1/2 above my midline my pap looks like a hockey stick. Is there anything different I need to do in order to lay a ball out using this method because of my pap?
Yes. Remember the midline isn't truly the rf to pap line. Put the pin just below the midline. It should end up still about 1 inch above the line from you rf to your pap
@@BowlingScience Thank you for the reply, I will give that a try. I have another question, for my pap i need to mark 2 1/8 up but at what angle or reference point do I use to move up? I thought I was supposed to use the VAL but not sure how to get it with this type of layout. I was just kinda eyeing it, which i'm sure isn't the correct way. Is there a way to find the VAL before drawing the midline?
You find midline by connecting the pin height arc with the 2 1/8 PAP arc with a line tangent to both. The VAL is 90 degrees perpendicular to that line passing through the PAP. We are doing another video soon to further explain!
@@BowlingScience Thanks for the help. Looking forward to the next video.
I need my ball filled and redrilled by you because i need a better layout 😭
I'm slightly confused. I thought the PSA to PAP distance was static at 6 3/4" on a symmetrical ball and any adjustments to that distance wouldn't matter to ball motion. Thus, only the Pin to Pap and Pin above the ring finger line would vary. Please help me understand this further. Thanks.
Where can I find info about what the 3 locators do? Mostly pin above finger line. Never heard of that one.
@@RobertBrownieX the higher the pin the sharper the break point, the closer to the line the smoother the reaction off the break
Len, the distance between the Pin and PSA is fixed by definition. The true PSA after drilling will be the same regardless of "cg position" (only on symms) but that is determined by the location of the finger holes in relation to the pin and the horizontal PAP coordinate.
We use the same "PSA" distances as we would on an assym for ease and consistency between symms and asymms. Yes technically that number doesn't matter as long as you are on the positive side of the ball. But you have to assign a value for layout triangulation purposes... so might as well use the ideal asymm location.
@@BowlingScience Makes sense. Thank you very much for expounding on that point.
This is very similar to storm psa layout.
both use the traditional cartesian system, but are defined by the last number. the Pin height used here is different from the pin buffer and controls motion differently.
@@BowlingScience I see thanks
@@BowlingScience I maybe confused, but sometimes i would use pin buffer. Just in case
@@BowlingScience what do different pin heights do?
Lower pins (1-) roll smoother and more forward. Higher pins (2+) are more angular
That's Mikey's layout.
Quick question..i just had my thimb hole plugged on a few balls always been a no thimb bowler. Will it affect the way the ball rolls or will it roll the same? Thanks for any info.
I just had it done and it will effect the ball motion
@@justmakingthistoreply5085 was it bad or lime a big difference or ok
@adam parker it’s not bad necessarily. Just different. I had a Brunswick Meanstreak and I could throw it straight up the 5 board and watch it hit the pocket. With the thumb hole plugged I had to move quite a bit left and aim for the ten pen to hit the pocket. That’s probably not the case for all balls but it was the case for me
@@justmakingthistoreply5085 thanks for the info. I just had my thumbs plugged on my idol pro,phase 3 and iq emerald
@adam parker well they’ll still roll lol. Just gotta relearn them some
But if you take this to a shop and ask them to do it like this they be like it doesn’t matter smh Im starting to hate these pro shops
Definitely find a new shop. Sounds like a shop that just wants your money and isn’t very good at what they do. Sorry to hear. The purpose of this channel is to provide free information so that interested bowlers and shops can grow and improve.
There is a newer video on the channel with a full walkthrough for our PAL layout system (the finished version of Mo’s no thumb layouts)
@@BowlingScience I gtta check it out, my flare rings are rolling over my finger holes and I’m tryna find out a layout to prevent that cus maybe it’s the houses I bowl at or sumn cus I feel like some of my bowling balls don’t hook, just spins and goes straight! My black widow 2.0 and hammer 3D offset just doesn’t hook back to the pocket and just goes long ! But when I slow the speed down then it hooks , I’m confused on what to do! Tried knocking the surface down and boom still the same thing