Add in the fact that the ONLY prayers these god characters seem to answer, are things like finding car keys, but NEVER to prevent the deaths of children under 5, worldwide, that happen EVERY NINE SECONDS. They are always so evilly lacking in self awareness that they're happy to crow about those useless "answered prayers," as 5 human children under 5 are dying by the time I finish this SENTENCE. 🤮
Hi xGx. I don’t understand your misunderstanding… By analogy, if a child asks a parent for a helium balloon, and the parent gets such a balloon for the child, how would that ‘take away’ free will? [I assert that a more capable being granting a wish to a less capable being does not affect the ‘free will’ of either being in any way.]
@@SystemsMedicine because to answer a prayer that someones asks for, someone's free will would have to be Influenced and changed in some way.. it's not like you ask God for something and puff it's there out of no where from nothing, you want a Ballon and ask God for one It'd have to influence someone to give that to you or or to have someone leave a Ballon behind for you!
God: You have freewill and I can blame you for your actions. Fine, I choose to have my own life, my own destiny, my own afterlife separate from you. God: I refuse to give you any of that!!! Then you are a cruel monster for lying, I have no freewill and nothing but a puppet.
Hey bud - Christian here. I think you have an interesting comment and I'd just like to throw my 2 cents in there if I may: God claims in the Bible to be good, and he claims that all good things come from him. Thus, to be worthy of being with God, we have to be good too. Not good to our standards, but to his. The moment we do something "not good" (aka commit evil), we immediately show God that we want to live separate from him. Not that he's SENDING us somewhere...with our actions we divide OURSELVES from him. As far as Hell being an inhumane torture...it absolutely is. It is a place completely separate from God and therefore, nothing GOOD can exist. But again...we send OURSELVES there. He wants us in Heaven with him, and we have to show him we want Heaven too. As far as Hell I'd like to give my experience, if I may. I struggled with alcohol for a long time. I rejected God and chose drink. It brought be to Hell. I couldn't function, sleep, I was hungover at work all the time. I was as close to Hell as I ever want to get. I prayed to God for help. Months later here I am. I'm not sober but I've cleaned up a lot, got a beautiful girlfriend, working everyday, I got a garden in the back, I've gotten back into my music etc. I can't speak for everyone but I've felt God in my life and I only pray everyone else has the same revelation I had If you read all that I appreciate you sticking with me. Any questions or comments please let me know. I wish y'all peace and safety in these trying times
@@michaelscaccia1454 if you're going through tough times with alcoholism then I don't think its appropriate of you to want to debate this in the public domain and have someone counterargue or debunk your points.
@@michaelscaccia1454 If christian believe in god, why 99.99999% of them avoid it for as long as possible? Life on Earth doesn´t make sense when there is heaven.
@@Betelgeuse2142 Mortal men, could never be, _all powerful._ Because men are mortal, and are not omnipotent Gods. But it is a common Christian belief, that their God is _all powerful._
If God of the Bible knew everything then I don't think he has any room for surprise. "Why won't they love me?" An all powerful God wouldn't need to use hell as punishment. Even humans have been able to come up with better ways to negotiate with each other than the carrot and stick routine
Do you think we know god completely? The bible is an attempt to explain him, we are limited and always be, the god acts we try explain it but his intentons only he known
@@Preá1000 Basically you have no evidence for God but you believe him anyways. And if I or anyone else asks for evidence you'll basic just say, "You can't do that because God is special." Special pleading doesn't prove your God is anymore real than faeries, dragons, unicorns, bigfoot or any other supernatural/special claim out there. Evidence is how we determine if something is true or at the very least reasonable to believe.
Very well-explained, Matt. Christians always seem to vacillate between Universe A or B, conveniently forgetting that they believe god is BOTH omnipotent & omniscient when it suits them, all while believing that it was really Universe C - but ignoring that god specifically chose this universe.
@@Fernando-ek8jp exactly. God allegedly chose to make this universe exactly in line with his alleged foreknowledge. Even though he allegedly could have made it any way he wanted.
I gotta admit, I have learned a lot from the man. Probably a large majority of my understanding of logic, christianity and philosophy has come from his explanations of terms and topics over the years. ... and he's a "Squid" that served around the same time I did. ;) So that makes him alright. .
God believers need to realize that IF there truly were a being that was Omniscient and Omnipotent, then the ONLY things that would EVER happen in that world are things that being MADE happen. Honestly think = Can ANYTHING ever happen in a world with a "god" like that, that was NOT a part of his "plan"? If Yes, then that "god" is NOT the End All be All. If the answer is No, then there is no Free Will. Pick your poison...
I really cannot imagine how we could have free will given that we know of no mechanism by which our brains could have an effect on matter which would not be "just" a consequence of the laws of physics and chemistry... to have free will, we should be able to break some laws of nature since they are deterministic... yet we do not observe that anywhere.
That's begging the question. You've assumed everything in nature is deterministic in order to argue that the mind must be deterministic. But the free will argument is that there is something unique (the human mind) that is non-deterministic. We are seemingly able to project futures and comprehend ideal standards and then act upon it. Nothing else in the known universe can do that. Unlike all other matter we are matter that can see the deterministic pathways and change our actions based on that.
@@shlockofgod I think the burden of proof is yours, I have no reasons to think the laws of physics stop applying to the inside of a human skull. No more than to the air inside of a ballon. Projecting futures etc. does not imply the existence of free will either. We may feel like we're in control, but it could very well be just a feeling. It makes much more sense to me to consider that we are spectators of our lives and that physics works anywhere as expected than to imagine some magic thing which can extract us from causality. I'm pretty sure AI will rather soon show us very clearly that no magic is required to build an intelligence which is extremely life-like if not alive.
@@fmdj You're committing the same begging the question fallacy. You're assuming everything in nature is determined in order to argue that the mind in nature is determined. The free will argument is not necessarily that it must be outside the laws of physics. The laws of physics are descriptive, not prescriptive. There's is no life that exists in physics or chemistry but the aggregate of those things produced life. Projecting futures is a unique ability only humans have. If a rock could suddenly understand and act on the deterministic pathways that it sees exist everywhere then it could conceivably escape that determinism to some degree. It could choose to NOT roll down the hill like every other rock is determined to do. "Magic extracting us from causality" is just a straw man. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's therefore magic and you can dismiss its existence. This is the reverse of what people used to do by attributing everything that could not comprehend to God. I'm guessing that MAYBE a living AI can be created. But at that point it will become responsible for its actions. We will generally grant it has free will. It will theoretically become capable of evil. Also, the burden of proof would be an illusion without free will. All such burdens would be determined. And imo, the notion that a person has the burden to prove that have absolutely no control over anything they ever do is risible.
@@shlockofgod no I'm assuming everything in nature is determined because we have never observed anything that wasn't. It's not begging the question it's just stating a fact. If you want your brain to be above physics there needs to be some justification.
@@fmdj That's begging the question. You're assuming that observing what we call free will IS determined in order to argue it's determined. What's worse is that it's not even empirically true. We observe time must have a beginning (unless you believe in an infinite temporal regress). And given that determinism is a temporal thing and time did not always exist then everything cannot have been determined. You just can't understand these things so you're removing them from existence. And again, "Above physics" is begging the question and a straw-man. We don't have to argue that free will is supernatural.
Free will categorically cannot exist if a god is an all-knowing and all-powerful creator. He created you with full knowledge of every single thing you would do, so every step would be predetermined.
@@aepneuma Premise 1: If X is omniscient, X knows all future actions it will take. Premise 2: If X can change its mind, then X did not know its future actions (contradicting omniscience). Premise 3: If X cannot change its mind, X’s actions are predetermined (contradicting free will). Conclusion: Therefore, X cannot have both omniscience and free will simultaneously.
@@Sweeti924 Could you help me understand your point better? I think if there really is a god and he s omniscient it doesn t contradict free will. from my understanding,the point you are making is that if god is omniscient we can t have free will because he knows what we ll do before we even do it. In my opinion,the fact that he s omniscient does not contradict free will at all because even if he knows what we ll do it doesn t mean he intervenes in our choices. It s like saying i left my mom a ribeye at home but just because i know she ll be hungry doesn t mean i m forcing her to eat the ribeye. She can make her choice of remaining hungty or eat the ribeye. Im just trying to understand your point better.
God Has Perfect Knowledge: Job 37:16, Matt 6:10 God is Our Source of Knowledge: 1 John 3:20, Matt 6:8 God Is Our Creator: Ps 147:4, Job 37:14-16, Matt 10:29-30, Ps 139:15-16 God Knows Our Hearts and Minds: Jer 16:17, Heb 4:12-13, Ps 139:4, 1 Chr 28:9, Luke 5:22, Matt 5:27-28 God Knows the Past, Present and Future: Isa 46:9-10, Gen 41:17-31, Dan 4:23-33, Ez 24:21 God Sees Everything: Ps 147:5, Prov 15:3, Ps 139:1-3
I'm not sure that the theists are being any less logical than Dennett. The defense of free will from the philosophers seems to be, to me, that they just change what "free will" means. Sapolski's argument seems to be that even if you're making choices, those choices are determined by your genetics and environment so that's not really free will, and I tend to agree with him.
What "you" are you refering to? What seems clear to me is that the conscious part of our minds cannot decide anything. So we cannot consciously choose anything. For free will to mean anything significant and meaningful, it has to mean the ability to consciously choose one thing rather than another thing. The ability to have done differently, all factors being exactly the same. I can see no way that could even possibly be true. I am also in Sapolskys camp.
That beard is getting quite impressive. I have no free will, but I have no choice but to behave as if I do. That's the case whether there's a god or not
Theists who believe in a perfect god should never talk, convince, or exist. Every time they act, say, or think something...they undermine perfection with their imperfection. ...the more they do it, the cloudier the pure water gets.
Hi everyone. I love the video Matt and I hope your cold gets better. There is something I don't get. I feel like the only decisive factor in the "gods creation and free will debate" is whether god knew what his creation was gonna look like, irrespective of his choice from multiple creations. The way I understood your video (watched twice) is that the comparison between A, B and C is supposed to illustrate: What is necessary for the claim "I have no free will, because god created me" to be maximally true/valid/consitent etc, but I feel like the only truly necessary factor is gods knowledge. My line of reasoning goes like this and I presuppose that determinsm isn't a thing, because even if god didn't know, with determinsm I could still be destined to do the things I do, and so could be god (please someone poke holes in it, cuz I want to get it right): A - God couldn't chose and he had only 1 option - In this case my free will is only subject to god's knowledge of his creation. If he knew what this one choice was going to result in, then no free will, if he didn't - the concatrary is true. B - God chose from multiple creations. Again my free will is only contigent on gods knowledge. The same applies for both A and B: If god doesn't know what he creates, then the "book" writes it self as time goes and it doesn't matter how many books could have been written or how many are written at the same time. And finally in C it becomes totally apparent when god chose from multiple creations and knew how each and everyone one of them would look like and the result they'd come to. I know that my examples A and B are a bit different from the video, because Matt clearly states GOD DOESN'T KNOW, but if god knew in A, absence of choice would be irrelevant and in B the presence of choice would be also totally irrelevant so long as god knows. If all of this can be easily deduced from the video, then my bad. P.S. English isn't my primary language so hopefully my comment is written coherently and is comprehensible. Thank you for your content and I thank everyone who read this or commented on this. Stay safe and above all hydrated in this crazy weather.
If I get it correctly, you're saying that God's knowledge is the primary factor in a question of free will. If God knows everything about the world, including the future, it means we lack free will. And you are also arguing that the absence of God's knowledge is a key determinant for free will: "If God doesn't know the future, we could deside." In case I get your point, I'll have to say two things: "If he knew what this one choice was going to result in, then no free will, IF HE DIDN'T - THE CONCATRARY IS TRUE." - This is my problem 1. God's knowledge is important ONLY in a scenario where God knows the future. In this, I agree with your deduction. 2. God's knowledge doesn't play a role; if he doesn't know the future, he plays no part in a dilemma of free will. He no longer has supportive evidence for any of the claims. If he does not know, he cannot know if the world is predetermined. If he does not know, we cannot take it as a proof of free will. Because his absence of knowledge is not logically sufficient to justify such a thing. (We also cannot think that it supports opposition; it is just, as you would say - Irrelevant) And finally, can you please add more information to these sentences: "I presuppose that determinsm isn't a thing, because even if god didn't know, with determinsm I could still be destined to do the things I do, and so could be god." Determinism is a thing that you are arguing about, so I don't get why you "presuppose it isn't a thing" And a part where you "could be god" is absolutely beyond me, please let me know. So that we could learn together, and understand ourselves. Peace 🕊️
I think it's important to make a distinction between determinism and fatalism. With fatalism, it will happen no matter what. Determinism is cause and effect. It will happen because (X) cause results in (Y) effect. But determinism does not know the future. It's playing out in real time. It's not written out ahead of time. Determinism also allows for the potential possibility of randomness (if such a thing truly exist - which to the best of my knowledge right now quantum physics says yes). So one analogy for determinism might be an object moving in space. If you push an object (cause) then it will keep moving in that direction (effect) unless or until something else causes it not to. Maybe that something else is some random quantum fluctuation or another object. I don't know. It really depends on how a God operates itself. As in, what type of God are we talking about? Does the God know everything, in which case true randomness doesn't exist. What we call randomness is then just an illusion of randomness based on our ignorance as humans. Or does God know what is going to happen based on cause and effect (similar to us when we study things) but is still subject to true randomness itself, where something could pop up that is completely unexpected. Like the Spanish inquisition. If that's the case then God is not completely in control. There is a randomness outside his control. Personally I'm not convinced free will exists as anything more than a fog of ignorance that we live in. We take credit for the things we do, because we do them, despite the fact that we are typically ignorant about what motivated us to do them. We may have a surface level reason such as "I like the way it tastes" but do we really control why we like the way it tastes? That is the level where our ignorance likely comes in.
I mentioned determism, because if It was a part of this "religious" free will debate, god would be irrelevant. I didn't clarify that my "thought experiment" is only about god and his creation, no other concept (deter and fatal) is in the equation.
The Problem of Free Will: Current issue: Tension between determinism in physics and the perception of free will. Theorem: Free will emerges from information-based decision processes in complex systems. Proof sketch: 1. Define a decision process: D: I_in → I_out 2. Complexity of D: C(D) = min{|p| : U(p, I_in) = I_out}, where U is a universal Turing machine 3. Define free will measure: F(D) = C(D) / I_in 4. For simple systems, F(D) ≈ 0 (deterministic) 5. For complex systems (e.g., brains), F(D) ≫ 0 6. Perception of free will emerges when F(D) exceeds a threshold This reconciles determinism with the emergence of apparent free will in complex systems.
I don`t really know if we have free will in this universe or not but I know this when I see a Matt Dillahunty video notification I just hit click, it`s automatic. On that I have no free will!
People are able to make decisions. Thus free will does exist. I could decide to kill myself at anytime but I choose not to do that; free will. There is no evidence that any god exists so, I assume none do exist. Until one is proven to exist, only then will I give a shit. Until then, I call bullshit. It's very simple. I love your videos and I also follow you on "The Line". Thanks, Matt!!!
Even if you feel like you’re making decisions freely, those decisions are influenced by a multitude of factors like your upbringing, experiences, genetics, and current state of mind. These influences shape your desires and choices, meaning they’re not truly free. It’s like a complex algorithm: you input the conditions and get a predictable output
We have freedom to make lots of choices, but we don't have the capacity to choose from every single possible choice for everything. Therefore, to me, we don't have free will, we simply have a good amount of freedom but not complete freedom.
@@Elena_7839What you're referring is more along the lines of omnipotence than free will. In order to be able to access all possible choices at any time, we'd literally have to be capable of everything and incapable of nothing. Free will in general is restricted to choices we have that fall withing our physical and mental capability at any time. A beggar can't choose to donate a billion dollars to charity simply because they don't have that amount of money to give, thus that choice is out of their capability. However it doesn't mean they do not have any control over any other choices that they are currently capable of.
@@DeludedOne I get your point, I guess what I'm pointing out is that we don't have the capacity to choose certain things or certain paths in life because of how our brain is wired. There's certain limits to it. Free will to me implies that you can do or think about anything, that you have the freedom to do anything within the limitations of the human body. If all free will is, is just having a higher level of freedom to choose then I'd agree we have that. But I don't see free will as that - I guess I need a clearer definition to base my thoughts off of. (The Big question to me is, if you lived your life again would you make the same choices and think the same way - would there be anything different?)
Fun Fact: Clue initially DID release with a single ending. But different theaters got different endings. So if Matt saw Clue in Theater A and I saw it in Theater B, then we would have seen different endings and argued about who actually did it.
There was a movie "God on Trial" where a group of men awaiting their fates in Auschwitz hold a trial on whether god had broken the covenant to allow such a fate for his chosen people. I recommend it despite the bleak premise as it has arguments from many angles including atheistic, but when it was brought up that god doesn't just take evil away because of free will, one of them tells of how a guard made him choose which one of his three children he could keep, and he asked where was the free will in such an impossible decision. He also says "I don't want free will, I want my sons!" I think it hits the free will argument hard by asking why should we care about this vague concept.
If it's possible to know everything that will happen in advance, we can't have "free will" as I understand it, gods or no. Luckily for me, *I* can't know everything in advance. 😁
If a god knows everything about creation before it creates, does it know when it will perform miracles. If yes, then god has no freewill after it creates, it must perform the miracles when it knows it will. If it doesn't know when it will perform miracles, then it's not all knowing. It feels a bit clunky. I'd appreciate input. My guess from the theistic point of view, god is outside time. It sees when and where it wants to perform miracles and performs them all at the same instant across time. Some bs like that. It's so easy coming up with an answer when there are zero restrictions.
Matt, these scenarios are interesting. By analogy with the Everett many worlds hypothesis, perhaps God instantiated all possible universes, but you are choosing which of the universes you will experience. So in this metaverse, you actually have made every possible choice, but you only experience one path through the metaverse, which seems like traveling through only one universe to you. Your mind would be wandering through an infinite maze, composed of all possible universes, and would be deciding which universe to experience. Note that others might be traveling through this same infinite maze at the same time, or at different times. [This is just a fun idea. But this idea would imply you are incorrect about your assertion as to the “only” scenario allowing free will. Oh well…] [Matt, amusingly, Everett’s PhD thesis purports to mathematically prove that his many worlds scenario is equivalent, in a physics computability sense, to a single world following the ‘laws’ of quantum mechanics. In the many worlds situation, God could know all the ‘outcomes’, and all intermediate states.] [ps God would definitely not have to take away free will in order to make a people or society ‘as numerous as the stars’. There is an infinity of ways to achieve this effect without interrupting free will. For example, God could bestow favorable weather on a society all the time, or reduce their disease attacks, or make their soil consistently richer, or leave them technological gifts, etc., etc., etc… Or, God or gods could do all these things together, and the receivers of the gifts could still have free will.]
Is it just me, or did he arrange for this to come up on everybody's birthday? (Admittedly, it has been up for 19 hours, so I could have watched it yesterday).
*God can't do both ;* God cannot be both, all powerful, and also be able to know the future. If God can predict future events, then he can't change them, and is not all powerful. And if he can change future events, then his original prediction, becomes invalid.
While I do not believe I will none the less play with this scenario . Several events happen to someone . Event A , this must absolutely happen in a certain way so divinity gives no choice to a man . Event B , something must happen but the man is given a few choices as to how that particular choice happens ( x - y - z ) Event C , is not something that divinity cares enough for and is chosen by the man himself , he choses both the goal and the means of achieving the goal . If these things / events happen does the man have free will , does he have partial free will , does he have situational free will ? Is freedom / free will something we must steal from divinity ? Is it something that is negotiable and situational , is it the result of divinity not caring for all the trivial details of our lives ? What if divinity operates on several scales , situational and person by person ? What do I mean by that ? We may not be able to chose the grand narrative of the world ( macro scale ) but we can chose the narrative of our own lives ( micro level ) . Situational : sometimes we can do as we like and sometimes we are constrained . Person by person : this guy gets to do as he like , this guy gets to suffer an die . Its a mess .
The movie analogy is the one that makes less sense to me than others regarding God's compatibility with free will. When you watch a movie, you're generally not the person in charge of creating all of the conditions that allowed for the movie to be made the way it was.
My standard reply, Reason with me: IF your god is Omni a) Did he know what was going to happen before it did? b) Can you go against the Will of God? c) If Either A OR B is true then "Free Will" does NOT exist. If either A OR B are False, then your god is NOT Omni!
I have read Daniel Dennets book Elbow Room and I'm not impressed. I have also read Robert Sapolskys book Determined, and have read and listened to Sam Harris on free will and those impress me more. Much more.
I wish Matt defined "free will" before doing the rest. I define it as the ability to do otherwise if we can rewind time. Also, it's logically possible that we have no free will under all the scenarios. Just because god didnt' know what was going to happen does not mean that we would have free will. Maybe the physical laws of the universe are not compatible with FW, and god's lack of knowledge is independent.
I feel like there's some overlap between consent and some theist's idea of free will. In order for consent to be valid and have any meaning the person must feel like they are able to say no without unwanted consequences, such as being fired, being kicked out, violence, etc That's no different to saying that we have free will but if we don't do what god wants then we'll be tortured for eternity. If someone puts a gun to your head and tells you they'll shoot you if you say no to them, it's no different to god saying that you have free will but he'll torture you if you say no to him. In both cases you're being forced to make a specific 'choice'.
I think there's another option as well. Consider like... being a game developer for an MMO. You THINK you know everything that's going to happen. You've got it all planned out. And then launch day comes and there's 8640646 glitches and bugs you never even considered and some of them are game breaking and the MMO players are yelling slurs at each other and exploiting every cheat they can find. So it can be made with intention and still go wrong based on factors out of your control (like free will).
@@SansDeitywow what an incredible take that has never been spoken before, you sure are brave by saying scripture ripture is wrong , I'm so glad people take you seriously.
The worst part of this whole 'free will" deal is I genuinely don't like fruit. It does nothing for me. But God didn't put me in the Gardem of Eden to make that decision for all of humanity. He put a weak, fruit loving simp in there, and I have to suffer the consequences. God could have put a gay man in there with Eve, and her feminine wiles would not have moved him to eat that fruit. It's a stupid concept all the way around. It's like suggesting a random guy abducted and killed a woman, so we all should go to prison and serve a life sentence along with him. Why? Well because we would have done the same exact thing.
I'm doubtful that many people have carefully considered what "beliefs" actually entail. I don't think I have a choice what to believe. I might discover that I have good reasons to believe one thing instead of another but reasons are either good reasons or they are not. Either way I can't simply decide. It's weird to me that so many people have admitted to having made the decision to believe something. How exactly is that even possible? That's like trying to decide which way is up. Do people think at all? Are they striving to deny reason? I don't get any of it. Psychology seems to have a lot to say about the subject. It's been 55 years and I can't figure people out. I don't think it was a good use of my time to try. Insanity is never going to make sense.
If my friend is in a car with me and can see the future, he could tell that if I take the left road, leading to an accident. Now he can inform me, in which case I take the right road. So everything's fine. But can God inform me of my future choices in the same way if one leads to a disaster? If God does that, then he would know my new choice, correct? Then, wouldn't he have known those events would have happened that way at the start? So since God sees my future choices and one of those choices could lead to my death, is it possible for God to inform me of the choice I am about to make?
Just to make sure I’m understanding this: with all three prongs you can show on one that God chose what was gonna happen and thus no one has free will, but on the other two prongs, things sound like they’re going to unfold in some deterministic way anyhow with or without Gods knowledge or decisions so you don’t have free will in those other two prongs either correct?
I would argue that it's not even necessary for God to know "nearly" everything. God would only need to have whatever knowledge is necessary to know your choices ahead of time, or to know when to intervene in order to keep his plans on track. That said, when it comes to the Christian God, it's pretty clear that we're not free, whether we have free will or not. For the sake of the argument, God is omnipotent and omniscient, which are attributes every Christian I've ever spoken ascribe to their God. If the future doesn't exist (and what we know of this reality tells us that it DOES), then the future is unknowable, so God cannot know our choices before we make them. However, he DOES have enough knowledge to make accurate predictions about what we will do. In any instance where he is as certain as he can be that we would make a decision which is NOT part of his plan, he uses the Jehovah Mind Trick to override our will and make us take the actions required by his Perfect Plan™. In this instance, our "free will" isn't really free, and is entirely superfluous. It serves exactly ONE purpose: To make God feel better about punishing us for doing anything that he doesn't like, including choosing not to have a one-sided relationship with him. It's nothing more than self-delusion. However, I must admit that an omniscient being deluding itself into believing it is justified in punishing beings for breaking rules when they never had a real choice to begin with IS quite impressive. It's infinitely scary, sure, but still impressive. Now, let's say the future DOES exist. Because I'm a nerd and watch Doctor Who, I would say there are two possibilities with this: The future is fixed, or the future (or parts of it at least) is in flux. If the future is fixed, then we have no free will. If God is omniscient, then I think he knew the universe would come out this way, and if he didn't, then he must have manipulated things to ensure that it DID, or he used his power to change the fixed future to what he wanted it to be. Whatever the case, there's no way the guy who cheats at wrestling and intervenes in bets where the whole point is to see what happens when he doesn't intervene is going to leave any of this to chance. If the future is in flux, or even just partially in flux, then it's POSSIBLE that we have free will, but as I stated in the first possibility, it is superfluous. God knows all possible futures and is able to manipulate all aspects of reality, including our wills, to attain the future that he wants. And since this is the Christian God we're talking about, that means he has a Perfect Plan™, which means EVERY DETAIL will be accounted for, no matter how small. Yahweh does not strike me as someone who takes chances. So we either have free will and it doesn't matter, or we don't have free will. Functionally, they are the exact same thing.
Pretty well argued, but I think there's a logical gap. Matt argues that the actions of men cannot be free will if the result is predetermined. But, some results are not from the action of men, e.g. from weather, animals, natural phenomena including disasters and including breakdown of tools, sickness, etc. There's a story for children that a boy wanted to shoot at the sun to turn it off, so he could stay home. The boy remained with the strong intent to turn off the sun, but went to school anyway. Just to be clear, I don't think god exist and that people can clearly be made to think what someone else decided for them (Church, Fox News).
Thanks for blocking me for making a South Park reference, Matt. I've always been a big fan, always donated when I could. Sorry we couldn't just have a conversation about it
You chose to be an Atheist, that's your free will. God's just observing our choices. Suggesting God chooses who believes and not, makes no sense. There's no free will if you think you're made up of random chemical matter from the sky.
In any universe with an omniscient omnipotent the only will of consequence is that omniscient omnipotence. Why? Because it knows any choices you will make and can change those choices to align with its will without anyone knowing. That's what omnipotence allows. That's what omniscience allows. It becomes culpable in all choices every person has made.
Clearly we each have a will. But I don't think "free will" is a coherent concept. Free from what? Free to what? We want things, and we make choices. But we can't want what we want.
Surely if God is omniscient, he has no free will himself which necessarily means free will cannot exist for any thinking agent ever. And if this god is omniscient, then it must be the most restricted of entities only ever being able to perform actions it already knows it will perform - no other action can ever be possible - making this 'creation' utterly deterministic
There is no free will as long as god is considered to be the answer, reason, and excuse for everything. It's a no win, circular argument. Convenient isn't it? Actually it's pretty nice not having to being responsible for yourself. The only counter is to not to play the game.
At the time God supposedly made the “as numerous as the stars” promise, people believed there were about 6000 stars. It wasn’t until the invention of the telescope that people found out there were a lot more.
As far as I'm aware, the Bible never appears to make the case that its deity has free will. In fact, it appears to make the case that its deity is utterly incapable of any change of any sort. So it's always puzzling to me when anyone asks if Yahweh might've done things differently. Clearly, no. Right? ... Also, it seems to me only a matter of time before theism latches on to the science that indicates free will may be illusory to prop up the claim that humanity was created in Yahweh's (no-free-will-havin') image. If it hasn't already.
God defeated decay and to prove that His kind doesn’t feed off of decay ever again, His child died and returned to the first temple as a tender plant. When did Jesus say He would return and who was He talking to?
The question is not to be taken from the perspective of God, but from that of men, since that of God escapes our knowledge. Therefore, it is enough for me to start from my vision of the world as a human, and to note that the choices I make are free, without there being any constraint, to affirm without problem that I have free will. But I think your problem is that you are confusing free will with absolute free will. Obviously there are things that God chooses for men, this in no way excludes the fact that He leaves them free choice regarding other things.
Although there's no god or anything supernatural, materialism kinda sucks. Illusory and irrational thinking has gotten me to many places. Being a complete realist would have hindered my progress.
The Christian Gods are omniscient. These creatures cannot change their minds about future happenings, as their minds have already been made up; the future has already been determined-this does not sound like free will to me.
I’d say free will is contradictory to an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god. To watch someone being murdered and not intervene is to value the perpetrator’s will over the victim’s. In a world where individual wills are constantly in conflict, there is no neutral way to protect everyone’s free will simultaneously. The only way out of the problem is with the disgusting copout of “mysterious ways.”
I had this convo recently too. Isaiah 46 has God saying he'll summon a man from far-off lands to fulfil his purpose, which is a clear indication of overriding free will of whatever man God mad in mind. The God of the Bible doesn't care about free will. There's a hundred such verses. It's straightforwardly incompatible to be Christian and think free will exists. As an atheist, I don't think free will exists anyway. But Christians cannot use free will as a get-out-of-jail-free card in response to the problem of evil. Bible says no.
So, without reading the verse, that specific phrasing doesn’t contradict free will. It’s entirely possible God reaches out to some man from far-off lands, that man doesn’t accept the summons, and God moves on to someone who to someone who wants do it when asked.
@@Leith_Crowther What if no one freely wants to cooperate? Yet God has a definite plan. So, we have few options here. 1. If God has perfect foreknowledge (Psalm 139 style) then right out the gate there's no free will (see Joe Schmidt's clip from a longer video responding to Horn on this), but at least we can make sense of a God that has a certain plan. 2. If God has no such foreknowledge, then saying he'll call up a man for his purpose can only make sense if God is willing to override free will as necessary to make his purposes come about. Absent one of those options, I don't see how God can say what he did. (Or Isaiah to prophesy it.)
@@stephengalanisI already agreed with point 1, but I have to concede point 2 now that you point it out. I’m not a theist, but I also wasn’t right when I said your example doesn’t work.
If we’re going all meta and non-Abrahamic, there’s an option in the 3rd scenario you missed. This is a God who literally plans on creating actual libertarian free will alongside the uniformity of nature and HAS sufficient knowledge to know all of it. This God would not be required to intervene, but merely create the initial conditions. A God’s foreknowledge of the results of our free will does not invalidate the fact that it may be the results of actual libertarian free will which God knows. The question then becomes: does this God have knowledge of His own behaviors? Does He have ANY choices? I don’t see how He can. And THIS presents massive contradictions with any one of those flavors of multi-omni-gods which are so popular. The only consistent way I can define free will: the ability to make decisions in the ignorance of knowing what those decisions will be. An omniscient God doesn’t have that option.
But if the god was omni, he chose which particular universe with libertarian free will he would make. If you could have chosen differently, then he still chose rhe one in which you made specific choices. He could have made a universe in which you made other choices
@@danielsnyder2288 Yep. Assuming there’s only one universe with libertarian free will, this God would have created it. The problem here isn’t incompatibility between libertarian free will and God… it’s that God cannot have libertarian free will… and THAT is incompatible with notions like sovereignty and judgement.
While I understand what you’re saying, I am convinced that there only needs to be two prongs to eliminate free will: 1) God knows the future and 2) God cannot be wrong. If god knows right now that I will order a pepperoni pizza tomorrow at 5:15pm, and it will be done at 5:30pm, there is no other outcome that can happen for all involved. If god knows I will die at age 72, there is nothing I can do to change that as he cannot be wrong. If there’s something I’m missing, please let me know!
@Mikechigan I literally explained all 3 prongs and why they are all required...I don't Know what else to tell you. Knowing the future doesn't mean there isn't free will and doesn't mean the individual who knows is the one who chose. 1. Must have created 2. Must have had a choice in creation 3. Must have known the results Without those 3, it cannot be claimed that God necessarily impeded free will
@@SansDeity "Knowing the future doesn't mean there isn't free will" But god isn't just all-knowing, he is additionally all-powerful. (or maximumly powerful) Did Eve eat the apple from the tree of her own free will? If God created her, including the things about her that could influence this decision (brain chemistry, personality, intelligence ect) AND then knowing what creating this specific Eve would result in (eating the apple), then is it not a pre-determined event, especially if this being is timeless/exists outside of time?
@@SansDeity Without those 3, should we even call it God? Or are we just dealing with a highly advanced being which itself is constrained by something? Guess it depends on how we define God. As I like to ask theists "what stops God?" Or put another way, "what prevents God from doing something?"
@@SansDeity I understand that without those three we can’t say god had control of, or impeded, our free will. My point was more that free will can’t exist if god knows every decision we will make before we make it and can’t be wrong about what we will decide. Typically free will is defined as “the ability to have done otherwise” and I just don’t see a way to do otherwise if god already knows what we will do and can’t be wrong.
@@SansDeity Matt, I respectfully disagree. If the future is known, then it must be predetermined. While I agree that knowledge itself doesn’t cause events, the fact that my writing this comment was known before I opened RUclips today means I couldn’t have done otherwise. This suggests that free will, in the sense of having the ability to choose differently, doesn’t exist
Since the original Word defeated decay and now can’t live as free as it used to than even God lost freewill. The tender plant is at the first temples waiting for the gifts of water, scriptures.
Free will cannot exist under an omnipotent and omniscient creator God. It created everything in the universe and has the power to create all things which are not logically impossible, and knows all of the alternatives to its creations and all the outcomes of its creations. Yet the idea of free will is integral to the Abrahamic religions, because without some semblance of free will, the idea of ANY punishment from God is morally indefensible, with the permanence and ultimate nature of Hell being permanently and ultimately indefensible. No matter what “we” think as we go about our lives “making choices”, every thought and action we ever have and do was ultimately choreographed by God and God alone, who knew all the alternatives to his courses of action in creating us and knew the consequences of creating us exactly the way that he did. And yet people who in one way or another do not accept the Abrahamic God are still apparently being sent to Hell when they die. Why? It is immoral to punish them for really much of anything, and I mean anything, that was only ultimately done because God decided that it would be so. If God created an atheist it is only because he wanted them to be precisely as they are, and if that meant sending them to Hell, it meant he wanted to send them to Hell. And if this atheist is a fundamentally good person, it means he wanted to send this fundamentally good person to Hell for eternity, rather than not creating them (and thus not manufacturing somebody for the sole ultimate purpose of them burning in Hell forever), or creating them precisely as they are, except with an alteration to the recipe that allows for them to eventually accept God’s existence and rule. Also, objective morality sort of falls apart as I see it under the weight of non-free will. If everything is ultimately choreographed by God, this includes things like the murder of entire families, and the raping of children. Are we really going to pretend that all of these things are objectively good because “God cannot do anything that is not good,” solely because you define God that way? And how can you defend these things on this basis of Divine Command yet with a straight face also arguing, “Actually, it’s (insert Abrahamic religion) morality that makes you think and lets you know that these things are wrong.” If murder and rape are objectively wrong, how do you reconcile that with God’s orchestration of every bit of it?
What if rather than choosing the universe as in your scenario c, God already knew that that was the universe they lived in? Regardless of if he created it?
the argument of free will remains moot until such a time as it can be demonstrated to exist. otherwise it's sophistry around the main issue. god can magic free will into existence, despite all appearances otherwise. but gods are just fiction, so free will needs to be demonstrated, without magic.
Why does Matt get mad at his opponents when debating an starts speaking over them consistently? Why does Matt walk out of debates more than anyone I’ve ever seen? Why is Matt afraid of Andrew ?? Why won’t Matt debate Andrew?? Why does Matt drink soda 🥤 everytime he thinks he made a good point in a debate with a smirk? Why does Matt believe something (meaning us an everything that exist) came from nothing??
Cuz he's a grifter in disguise. debunking religion will never make anyone an intellectual, what he says is as valuable as the people he brings on to the podium
and per most if not all theist god is at least all knowing and all powerful. then add other properties depending on religion. this means per theist we live in option C. i am of the belief our actions and thoughts are a result of past events, chaining back to the beginning of everything. so, we are in option C. quantum physics does not get you out of it. quantum physics still obeys roles we just do not know the roles fully.
"Yes I have free will; I have no choice but to have it."
-Hitchens
Who drank and smoked himself to death.
@@BobbyFriston Do you have a point?
@@BobbyFriston Attack the message, not the messenger.
@@vincenta8652
Hitchens had no will power.
@@BobbyFriston Will power & free will aren't the same thing.
I dont see how there could be Free Will if their God answers Prayers, but luckily prays are shown to come true as often as Hoping or Wishing
If the plane misses: god is good
If it crashes: well he works in mysterious ways
Prayer already makes zero sense. So we as fallible beings are asking an all-knowing being to change its mind?
Add in the fact that the ONLY prayers these god characters seem to answer, are things like finding car keys, but NEVER to prevent the deaths of children under 5, worldwide, that happen EVERY NINE SECONDS. They are always so evilly lacking in self awareness that they're happy to crow about those useless "answered prayers," as 5 human children under 5 are dying by the time I finish this SENTENCE. 🤮
Hi xGx. I don’t understand your misunderstanding… By analogy, if a child asks a parent for a helium balloon, and the parent gets such a balloon for the child, how would that ‘take away’ free will? [I assert that a more capable being granting a wish to a less capable being does not affect the ‘free will’ of either being in any way.]
@@SystemsMedicine because to answer a prayer that someones asks for, someone's free will would have to be Influenced and changed in some way.. it's not like you ask God for something and puff it's there out of no where from nothing, you want a Ballon and ask God for one It'd have to influence someone to give that to you or or to have someone leave a Ballon behind for you!
God: You have freewill and I can blame you for your actions.
Fine, I choose to have my own life, my own destiny, my own afterlife separate from you.
God: I refuse to give you any of that!!!
Then you are a cruel monster for lying, I have no freewill and nothing but a puppet.
He does give you that, it's just that he set it up so anyone choosing that option would receive inhumane torture
@@kappasphere which isn't a choice, its abuse, a partner telling you 'love me or die', isn't giving you your deserved freedom, its slavery.
Hey bud - Christian here. I think you have an interesting comment and I'd just like to throw my 2 cents in there if I may:
God claims in the Bible to be good, and he claims that all good things come from him. Thus, to be worthy of being with God, we have to be good too. Not good to our standards, but to his. The moment we do something "not good" (aka commit evil), we immediately show God that we want to live separate from him. Not that he's SENDING us somewhere...with our actions we divide OURSELVES from him. As far as Hell being an inhumane torture...it absolutely is. It is a place completely separate from God and therefore, nothing GOOD can exist. But again...we send OURSELVES there. He wants us in Heaven with him, and we have to show him we want Heaven too.
As far as Hell I'd like to give my experience, if I may. I struggled with alcohol for a long time. I rejected God and chose drink. It brought be to Hell. I couldn't function, sleep, I was hungover at work all the time. I was as close to Hell as I ever want to get. I prayed to God for help. Months later here I am. I'm not sober but I've cleaned up a lot, got a beautiful girlfriend, working everyday, I got a garden in the back, I've gotten back into my music etc. I can't speak for everyone but I've felt God in my life and I only pray everyone else has the same revelation I had
If you read all that I appreciate you sticking with me. Any questions or comments please let me know. I wish y'all peace and safety in these trying times
@@michaelscaccia1454 if you're going through tough times with alcoholism then I don't think its appropriate of you to want to debate this in the public domain and have someone counterargue or debunk your points.
@@michaelscaccia1454 If christian believe in god, why 99.99999% of them avoid it for as long as possible? Life on Earth doesn´t make sense when there is heaven.
*With great power, comes great responsibility.*
_But with all power, comes all responsibility._
but no one man should have all that power
@@Betelgeuse2142 Mortal men, could never be, _all powerful._
Because men are mortal, and are not omnipotent Gods.
But it is a common Christian belief, that their God is _all powerful._
If God of the Bible knew everything then I don't think he has any room for surprise.
"Why won't they love me?"
An all powerful God wouldn't need to use hell as punishment. Even humans have been able to come up with better ways to negotiate with each other than the carrot and stick routine
Do you think we know god completely? The bible is an attempt to explain him, we are limited and always be, the god acts we try explain it but his intentons only he known
@@Preá1000 How does anyone know God exists in the first place, let alone what "he" wants?
Three possibilities if he's real and evil persists:
He's evil.
He doesn't care.
He doesn't even know we exist.
@@Elena_7839 we don't know, that's why we believe that he exists, and that's why it makes no sense you claim evidence for a thing we believe
@@Preá1000 Basically you have no evidence for God but you believe him anyways. And if I or anyone else asks for evidence you'll basic just say, "You can't do that because God is special."
Special pleading doesn't prove your God is anymore real than faeries, dragons, unicorns, bigfoot or any other supernatural/special claim out there.
Evidence is how we determine if something is true or at the very least reasonable to believe.
Very well-explained, Matt. Christians always seem to vacillate between Universe A or B, conveniently forgetting that they believe god is BOTH omnipotent & omniscient when it suits them, all while believing that it was really Universe C - but ignoring that god specifically chose this universe.
God didn't just choose a universe, he made it. It's not like he had billions of universes to choose from based only on the cover and a synopsis
@@Fernando-ek8jp exactly. God allegedly chose to make this universe exactly in line with his alleged foreknowledge. Even though he allegedly could have made it any way he wanted.
Take care, Sir; you are a valued resource.
I gotta admit, I have learned a lot from the man.
Probably a large majority of my understanding of logic, christianity and philosophy has come from his explanations of terms and topics over the years.
... and he's a "Squid" that served around the same time I did. ;) So that makes him alright.
.
We are the items within a randomized lootbox, got it
2:50 all I can think about is "A boat's a boat, but a mystery box could be anything. It could even be a boat"
God believers need to realize that IF there truly were a being that was Omniscient and Omnipotent, then the ONLY things that would EVER happen in that world are things that being MADE happen.
Honestly think = Can ANYTHING ever happen in a world with a "god" like that, that was NOT a part of his "plan"? If Yes, then that "god" is NOT the End All be All. If the answer is No, then there is no Free Will. Pick your poison...
logic is a powerful and fearsome thing. Its mere presense shatters illusion and scams alike.
Crazy enough I'm watching this day after my birthday lmao
"I thank god he made me an atheist." - Ricky Gervais
My thanks for being an atheist are directed elsewhere, like encyclopedia.
@KickassUncle He's a comedian. It's a joke. He's a clever atheist who's poking fun at the concept.
@@ObserverExperiencer Gervais? Ricky? A comedian?
@@KickassUncle Burrrrrrns
I really cannot imagine how we could have free will given that we know of no mechanism by which our brains could have an effect on matter which would not be "just" a consequence of the laws of physics and chemistry... to have free will, we should be able to break some laws of nature since they are deterministic... yet we do not observe that anywhere.
That's begging the question. You've assumed everything in nature is deterministic in order to argue that the mind must be deterministic. But the free will argument is that there is something unique (the human mind) that is non-deterministic. We are seemingly able to project futures and comprehend ideal standards and then act upon it. Nothing else in the known universe can do that. Unlike all other matter we are matter that can see the deterministic pathways and change our actions based on that.
@@shlockofgod I think the burden of proof is yours, I have no reasons to think the laws of physics stop applying to the inside of a human skull. No more than to the air inside of a ballon.
Projecting futures etc. does not imply the existence of free will either. We may feel like we're in control, but it could very well be just a feeling. It makes much more sense to me to consider that we are spectators of our lives and that physics works anywhere as expected than to imagine some magic thing which can extract us from causality.
I'm pretty sure AI will rather soon show us very clearly that no magic is required to build an intelligence which is extremely life-like if not alive.
@@fmdj You're committing the same begging the question fallacy. You're assuming everything in nature is determined in order to argue that the mind in nature is determined. The free will argument is not necessarily that it must be outside the laws of physics. The laws of physics are descriptive, not prescriptive. There's is no life that exists in physics or chemistry but the aggregate of those things produced life.
Projecting futures is a unique ability only humans have. If a rock could suddenly understand and act on the deterministic pathways that it sees exist everywhere then it could conceivably escape that determinism to some degree. It could choose to NOT roll down the hill like every other rock is determined to do.
"Magic extracting us from causality" is just a straw man. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's therefore magic and you can dismiss its existence. This is the reverse of what people used to do by attributing everything that could not comprehend to God.
I'm guessing that MAYBE a living AI can be created. But at that point it will become responsible for its actions. We will generally grant it has free will. It will theoretically become capable of evil.
Also, the burden of proof would be an illusion without free will. All such burdens would be determined.
And imo, the notion that a person has the burden to prove that have absolutely no control over anything they ever do is risible.
@@shlockofgod no I'm assuming everything in nature is determined because we have never observed anything that wasn't. It's not begging the question it's just stating a fact. If you want your brain to be above physics there needs to be some justification.
@@fmdj That's begging the question. You're assuming that observing what we call free will IS determined in order to argue it's determined. What's worse is that it's not even empirically true. We observe time must have a beginning (unless you believe in an infinite temporal regress). And given that determinism is a temporal thing and time did not always exist then everything cannot have been determined. You just can't understand these things so you're removing them from existence.
And again, "Above physics" is begging the question and a straw-man. We don't have to argue that free will is supernatural.
Free will categorically cannot exist if a god is an all-knowing and all-powerful creator. He created you with full knowledge of every single thing you would do, so every step would be predetermined.
Can you demonstrate that
@@aepneuma
Premise 1: If X is omniscient, X knows all future actions it will take.
Premise 2: If X can change its mind, then X did not know its future actions (contradicting omniscience).
Premise 3: If X cannot change its mind, X’s actions are predetermined (contradicting free will).
Conclusion: Therefore, X cannot have both omniscience and free will simultaneously.
@@Sweeti924 Could you help me understand your point better? I think if there really is a god and he s omniscient it doesn t contradict free will. from my understanding,the point you are making is that if god is omniscient we can t have free will because he knows what we ll do before we even do it. In my opinion,the fact that he s omniscient does not contradict free will at all because even if he knows what we ll do it doesn t mean he intervenes in our choices. It s like saying i left my mom a ribeye at home but just because i know she ll be hungry doesn t mean i m forcing her to eat the ribeye. She can make her choice of remaining hungty or eat the ribeye. Im just trying to understand your point better.
@@laurentiuflorin6001 Can anyone give me a verse in the bible that actually says god is omniscient.
God Has Perfect Knowledge: Job 37:16, Matt 6:10
God is Our Source of Knowledge: 1 John 3:20, Matt 6:8
God Is Our Creator: Ps 147:4, Job 37:14-16, Matt 10:29-30, Ps 139:15-16
God Knows Our Hearts and Minds: Jer 16:17, Heb 4:12-13, Ps 139:4, 1 Chr 28:9, Luke 5:22, Matt 5:27-28
God Knows the Past, Present and Future: Isa 46:9-10, Gen 41:17-31, Dan 4:23-33, Ez 24:21
God Sees Everything: Ps 147:5, Prov 15:3, Ps 139:1-3
👏indispensable information for the progress of humanity.
I'm not sure that the theists are being any less logical than Dennett. The defense of free will from the philosophers seems to be, to me, that they just change what "free will" means. Sapolski's argument seems to be that even if you're making choices, those choices are determined by your genetics and environment so that's not really free will, and I tend to agree with him.
What "you" are you refering to? What seems clear to me is that the conscious part of our minds cannot decide anything. So we cannot consciously choose anything. For free will to mean anything significant and meaningful, it has to mean the ability to consciously choose one thing rather than another thing. The ability to have done differently, all factors being exactly the same. I can see no way that could even possibly be true. I am also in Sapolskys camp.
Heaven and Hell prove there is NO freewill.
Cool.
Now prove Heaven and Hell.
@@brucebaker810 Woosh
_"Whut's in the baaaaahxx!?"_
One of my favorite movies on the ick/creeped out factor.
.
I thought there was a cat in the box
@@stansolo4138 there is; it's both alive and dead.. until you open it
Was it dead, or alive?
Yes
and a vial of poison that will break at somepoint
"Man can indeed do what he wants, but he cannot want what he wants"
You can want what you want, within limits. Just choose to cultivate a wanting for it.
No we have corporations, institutions, and lobbyists for deciding what we want.
@@shlockofgod To cultivate a wanting for something, you have to already want it.
@@bike4aday So people wanted to smoke tobacco before tobacco existed?
Can you define "want"?
You knew my birthday was today! What a miracle.
the odds are { 365.25 to 1 } on getting it correct.
;)
I thought the title said “surprise, no free WiFi”. That’d be hell.
That beard is getting quite impressive.
I have no free will, but I have no choice but to behave as if I do. That's the case whether there's a god or not
I do have Freewill. It was the first Rush song I put on my iPhone.
Beats the snot outta "I Think I'm Going Bald."
When I was told by a Christian that we can choose what we believe I told him to choose to believe I was a Christian and leave me alone. 🤘💀🤘
I need more coffee: glanced at this and thought it said “No Free Wifi.”
1:46
I like this framing, Matt 👍
No joke.... It actually is my birthday 😊
Theists who believe in a perfect god should never talk, convince, or exist. Every time they act, say, or think something...they undermine perfection with their imperfection.
...the more they do it, the cloudier the pure water gets.
NdT’s Star Talk had a few guests who explained we can’t have free will. Quantum Physics messes me up.
But God is magic!!! 😂
Hi everyone. I love the video Matt and I hope your cold gets better. There is something I don't get. I feel like the only decisive factor in the "gods creation and free will debate" is whether god knew what his creation was gonna look like, irrespective of his choice from multiple creations. The way I understood your video (watched twice) is that the comparison between A, B and C is supposed to illustrate: What is necessary for the claim "I have no free will, because god created me" to be maximally true/valid/consitent etc, but I feel like the only truly necessary factor is gods knowledge. My line of reasoning goes like this and I presuppose that determinsm isn't a thing, because even if god didn't know, with determinsm I could still be destined to do the things I do, and so could be god (please someone poke holes in it, cuz I want to get it right): A - God couldn't chose and he had only 1 option - In this case my free will is only subject to god's knowledge of his creation. If he knew what this one choice was going to result in, then no free will, if he didn't - the concatrary is true. B - God chose from multiple creations. Again my free will is only contigent on gods knowledge. The same applies for both A and B: If god doesn't know what he creates, then the "book" writes it self as time goes and it doesn't matter how many books could have been written or how many are written at the same time. And finally in C it becomes totally apparent when god chose from multiple creations and knew how each and everyone one of them would look like and the result they'd come to.
I know that my examples A and B are a bit different from the video, because Matt clearly states GOD DOESN'T KNOW, but if god knew in A, absence of choice would be irrelevant and in B the presence of choice would be also totally irrelevant so long as god knows.
If all of this can be easily deduced from the video, then my bad.
P.S. English isn't my primary language so hopefully my comment is written coherently and is comprehensible.
Thank you for your content and I thank everyone who read this or commented on this. Stay safe and above all hydrated in this crazy weather.
If I get it correctly, you're saying that God's knowledge is the primary factor in a question of free will. If God knows everything about the world, including the future, it means we lack free will. And you are also arguing that the absence of God's knowledge is a key determinant for free will: "If God doesn't know the future, we could deside."
In case I get your point, I'll have to say two things:
"If he knew what this one choice was going to result in, then no free will, IF HE DIDN'T - THE CONCATRARY IS TRUE."
- This is my problem
1. God's knowledge is important ONLY in a scenario where God knows the future. In this, I agree with your deduction.
2. God's knowledge doesn't play a role; if he doesn't know the future, he plays no part in a dilemma of free will. He no longer has supportive evidence for any of the claims. If he does not know, he cannot know if the world is predetermined. If he does not know, we cannot take it as a proof of free will. Because his absence of knowledge is not logically sufficient to justify such a thing.
(We also cannot think that it supports opposition; it is just, as you would say - Irrelevant)
And finally, can you please add more information to these sentences:
"I presuppose that determinsm isn't a thing, because even if god didn't know, with determinsm I could still be destined to do the things I do, and so could be god."
Determinism is a thing that you are arguing about, so I don't get why you "presuppose it isn't a thing"
And a part where you "could be god" is absolutely beyond me, please let me know. So that we could learn together, and understand ourselves.
Peace 🕊️
I think it's important to make a distinction between determinism and fatalism. With fatalism, it will happen no matter what. Determinism is cause and effect. It will happen because (X) cause results in (Y) effect. But determinism does not know the future. It's playing out in real time. It's not written out ahead of time. Determinism also allows for the potential possibility of randomness (if such a thing truly exist - which to the best of my knowledge right now quantum physics says yes). So one analogy for determinism might be an object moving in space. If you push an object (cause) then it will keep moving in that direction (effect) unless or until something else causes it not to. Maybe that something else is some random quantum fluctuation or another object. I don't know.
It really depends on how a God operates itself. As in, what type of God are we talking about? Does the God know everything, in which case true randomness doesn't exist. What we call randomness is then just an illusion of randomness based on our ignorance as humans.
Or does God know what is going to happen based on cause and effect (similar to us when we study things) but is still subject to true randomness itself, where something could pop up that is completely unexpected. Like the Spanish inquisition.
If that's the case then God is not completely in control. There is a randomness outside his control.
Personally I'm not convinced free will exists as anything more than a fog of ignorance that we live in. We take credit for the things we do, because we do them, despite the fact that we are typically ignorant about what motivated us to do them. We may have a surface level reason such as "I like the way it tastes" but do we really control why we like the way it tastes? That is the level where our ignorance likely comes in.
I mentioned determism, because if It was a part of this "religious" free will debate, god would be irrelevant. I didn't clarify that my "thought experiment" is only about god and his creation, no other concept (deter and fatal) is in the equation.
Evening all 👋
Good morning from the Hawaiian Islands 🤙
The Problem of Free Will:
Current issue: Tension between determinism in physics and the perception of free will.
Theorem: Free will emerges from information-based decision processes in complex systems.
Proof sketch:
1. Define a decision process: D: I_in → I_out
2. Complexity of D: C(D) = min{|p| : U(p, I_in) = I_out}, where U is a universal Turing machine
3. Define free will measure: F(D) = C(D) / I_in
4. For simple systems, F(D) ≈ 0 (deterministic)
5. For complex systems (e.g., brains), F(D) ≫ 0
6. Perception of free will emerges when F(D) exceeds a threshold
This reconciles determinism with the emergence of apparent free will in complex systems.
I don`t really know if we have free will in this universe or not but I know this when I see a Matt Dillahunty video notification I just hit click, it`s automatic. On that I have no free will!
People are able to make decisions. Thus free will does exist. I could decide to kill myself at anytime but I choose not to do that; free will. There is no evidence that any god exists so, I assume none do exist. Until one is proven to exist, only then will I give a shit. Until then, I call bullshit. It's very simple.
I love your videos and I also follow you on "The Line". Thanks, Matt!!!
Making decisions isn’t proof of free will, it’s just proof of will.
Even if you feel like you’re making decisions freely, those decisions are influenced by a multitude of factors like your upbringing, experiences, genetics, and current state of mind. These influences shape your desires and choices, meaning they’re not truly free. It’s like a complex algorithm: you input the conditions and get a predictable output
Your decision not to harm yourself is shaped on your instinct for self preservation. You did not choose to have this instinct
Gandalf Matt?
Every time I buy a lottery ticket I get box number 5, so far.
We have freedom to make lots of choices, but we don't have the capacity to choose from every single possible choice for everything.
Therefore, to me, we don't have free will, we simply have a good amount of freedom but not complete freedom.
@@Elena_7839 I dont think Free Will is being able to Choose from every single possible choice but just simply the ability to choose for your self
@@xgringox5417 I guess it depends on what you consider free will.
But what motivated you to make the choices you do make? Unless you control that, can you really say you have free will?
@@Elena_7839What you're referring is more along the lines of omnipotence than free will. In order to be able to access all possible choices at any time, we'd literally have to be capable of everything and incapable of nothing.
Free will in general is restricted to choices we have that fall withing our physical and mental capability at any time. A beggar can't choose to donate a billion dollars to charity simply because they don't have that amount of money to give, thus that choice is out of their capability. However it doesn't mean they do not have any control over any other choices that they are currently capable of.
@@DeludedOne I get your point, I guess what I'm pointing out is that we don't have the capacity to choose certain things or certain paths in life because of how our brain is wired. There's certain limits to it.
Free will to me implies that you can do or think about anything, that you have the freedom to do anything within the limitations of the human body.
If all free will is, is just having a higher level of freedom to choose then I'd agree we have that. But I don't see free will as that - I guess I need a clearer definition to base my thoughts off of.
(The Big question to me is, if you lived your life again would you make the same choices and think the same way - would there be anything different?)
Fun Fact: Clue initially DID release with a single ending. But different theaters got different endings. So if Matt saw Clue in Theater A and I saw it in Theater B, then we would have seen different endings and argued about who actually did it.
There was a movie "God on Trial" where a group of men awaiting their fates in Auschwitz hold a trial on whether god had broken the covenant to allow such a fate for his chosen people. I recommend it despite the bleak premise as it has arguments from many angles including atheistic, but when it was brought up that god doesn't just take evil away because of free will, one of them tells of how a guard made him choose which one of his three children he could keep, and he asked where was the free will in such an impossible decision. He also says "I don't want free will, I want my sons!" I think it hits the free will argument hard by asking why should we care about this vague concept.
If it's possible to know everything that will happen in advance, we can't have "free will" as I understand it, gods or no. Luckily for me, *I* can't know everything in advance. 😁
If a god knows everything about creation before it creates, does it know when it will perform miracles. If yes, then god has no freewill after it creates, it must perform the miracles when it knows it will. If it doesn't know when it will perform miracles, then it's not all knowing.
It feels a bit clunky. I'd appreciate input.
My guess from the theistic point of view, god is outside time. It sees when and where it wants to perform miracles and performs them all at the same instant across time. Some bs like that. It's so easy coming up with an answer when there are zero restrictions.
Listening and imagine 🎉
So glad you offered me box #4
It is my favorite # .
I just hope Gwyneth Paltrows head is not included.
Matt, these scenarios are interesting.
By analogy with the Everett many worlds hypothesis, perhaps God instantiated all possible universes, but you are choosing which of the universes you will experience. So in this metaverse, you actually have made every possible choice, but you only experience one path through the metaverse, which seems like traveling through only one universe to you. Your mind would be wandering through an infinite maze, composed of all possible universes, and would be deciding which universe to experience. Note that others might be traveling through this same infinite maze at the same time, or at different times. [This is just a fun idea. But this idea would imply you are incorrect about your assertion as to the “only” scenario allowing free will. Oh well…]
[Matt, amusingly, Everett’s PhD thesis purports to mathematically prove that his many worlds scenario is equivalent, in a physics computability sense, to a single world following the ‘laws’ of quantum mechanics. In the many worlds situation, God could know all the ‘outcomes’, and all intermediate states.]
[ps God would definitely not have to take away free will in order to make a people or society ‘as numerous as the stars’. There is an infinity of ways to achieve this effect without interrupting free will. For example, God could bestow favorable weather on a society all the time, or reduce their disease attacks, or make their soil consistently richer, or leave them technological gifts, etc., etc., etc… Or, God or gods could do all these things together, and the receivers of the gifts could still have free will.]
Is it just me, or did he arrange for this to come up on everybody's birthday? (Admittedly, it has been up for 19 hours, so I could have watched it yesterday).
It is literally my birthday, and that was kinda freaky ngl lol
Happy birthday to you, and to the about 525 other subscribers whose birthday is today.
@@ArKritz84I was actually thinking about this, and the odds are probably better than 1/365, since the US has higher than average birthrates in July.
*God can't do both ;*
God cannot be both, all powerful, and also be able to know the future.
If God can predict future events, then he can't change them, and is not all powerful.
And if he can change future events, then his original prediction, becomes invalid.
While I do not believe I will none the less play with this scenario .
Several events happen to someone .
Event A , this must absolutely happen in a certain way so divinity gives no choice to a man .
Event B , something must happen but the man is given a few choices as to how that particular choice happens ( x - y - z )
Event C , is not something that divinity cares enough for and is chosen by the man himself , he choses both the goal and the means of achieving the goal .
If these things / events happen does the man have free will , does he have partial free will , does he have situational free will ?
Is freedom / free will something we must steal from divinity ? Is it something that is negotiable and situational , is it the result of divinity not caring for all the trivial details of our lives ?
What if divinity operates on several scales , situational and person by person ? What do I mean by that ? We may not be able to chose the grand narrative of the world ( macro scale ) but we can chose the narrative of our own lives ( micro level ) . Situational : sometimes we can do as we like and sometimes we are constrained . Person by person : this guy gets to do as he like , this guy gets to suffer an die .
Its a mess .
The movie analogy is the one that makes less sense to me than others regarding God's compatibility with free will.
When you watch a movie, you're generally not the person in charge of creating all of the conditions that allowed for the movie to be made the way it was.
My standard reply, Reason with me: IF your god is Omni a) Did he know what was going to happen before it did? b) Can you go against the Will of God? c) If Either A OR B is true then "Free Will" does NOT exist. If either A OR B are False, then your god is NOT Omni!
I have read Daniel Dennets book Elbow Room and I'm not impressed. I have also read Robert Sapolskys book Determined, and have read and listened to Sam Harris on free will and those impress me more. Much more.
I wish Matt defined "free will" before doing the rest. I define it as the ability to do otherwise if we can rewind time.
Also, it's logically possible that we have no free will under all the scenarios. Just because god didnt' know what was going to happen does not mean that we would have free will. Maybe the physical laws of the universe are not compatible with FW, and god's lack of knowledge is independent.
I feel like there's some overlap between consent and some theist's idea of free will.
In order for consent to be valid and have any meaning the person must feel like they are able to say no without unwanted consequences, such as being fired, being kicked out, violence, etc
That's no different to saying that we have free will but if we don't do what god wants then we'll be tortured for eternity.
If someone puts a gun to your head and tells you they'll shoot you if you say no to them, it's no different to god saying that you have free will but he'll torture you if you say no to him. In both cases you're being forced to make a specific 'choice'.
❤
Good video.
I think there's another option as well. Consider like... being a game developer for an MMO. You THINK you know everything that's going to happen. You've got it all planned out. And then launch day comes and there's 8640646 glitches and bugs you never even considered and some of them are game breaking and the MMO players are yelling slurs at each other and exploiting every cheat they can find. So it can be made with intention and still go wrong based on factors out of your control (like free will).
@Mangacide thinking you know everything is not the same as knowing everything
@@SansDeity Yeah that's why it's another option aside from absolutely knows and absolutely doesn't know.
@@SansDeitywow what an incredible take that has never been spoken before, you sure are brave by saying scripture ripture is wrong , I'm so glad people take you seriously.
I see that Matt had decided to go full wizard...
Afternoon here
The worst part of this whole 'free will" deal is I genuinely don't like fruit. It does nothing for me. But God didn't put me in the Gardem of Eden to make that decision for all of humanity. He put a weak, fruit loving simp in there, and I have to suffer the consequences. God could have put a gay man in there with Eve, and her feminine wiles would not have moved him to eat that fruit. It's a stupid concept all the way around. It's like suggesting a random guy abducted and killed a woman, so we all should go to prison and serve a life sentence along with him. Why? Well because we would have done the same exact thing.
I'm doubtful that many people have carefully considered what "beliefs" actually entail.
I don't think I have a choice what to believe. I might discover that I have good reasons to believe one thing instead of another but reasons are either good reasons or they are not. Either way I can't simply decide.
It's weird to me that so many people have admitted to having made the decision to believe something.
How exactly is that even possible?
That's like trying to decide which way is up.
Do people think at all?
Are they striving to deny reason?
I don't get any of it.
Psychology seems to have a lot to say about the subject.
It's been 55 years and I can't figure people out.
I don't think it was a good use of my time to try.
Insanity is never going to make sense.
If my friend is in a car with me and can see the future, he could tell that if I take the left road, leading to an accident. Now he can inform me, in which case I take the right road. So everything's fine.
But can God inform me of my future choices in the same way if one leads to a disaster? If God does that, then he would know my new choice, correct? Then, wouldn't he have known those events would have happened that way at the start?
So since God sees my future choices and one of those choices could lead to my death, is it possible for God to inform me of the choice I am about to make?
Just to make sure I’m understanding this: with all three prongs you can show on one that God chose what was gonna happen and thus no one has free will, but on the other two prongs, things sound like they’re going to unfold in some deterministic way anyhow with or without Gods knowledge or decisions so you don’t have free will in those other two prongs either correct?
I can't just choose to like eating Tomato's, I have no choice but to find them disgusting. XD
I would argue that it's not even necessary for God to know "nearly" everything. God would only need to have whatever knowledge is necessary to know your choices ahead of time, or to know when to intervene in order to keep his plans on track.
That said, when it comes to the Christian God, it's pretty clear that we're not free, whether we have free will or not. For the sake of the argument, God is omnipotent and omniscient, which are attributes every Christian I've ever spoken ascribe to their God. If the future doesn't exist (and what we know of this reality tells us that it DOES), then the future is unknowable, so God cannot know our choices before we make them. However, he DOES have enough knowledge to make accurate predictions about what we will do. In any instance where he is as certain as he can be that we would make a decision which is NOT part of his plan, he uses the Jehovah Mind Trick to override our will and make us take the actions required by his Perfect Plan™. In this instance, our "free will" isn't really free, and is entirely superfluous. It serves exactly ONE purpose: To make God feel better about punishing us for doing anything that he doesn't like, including choosing not to have a one-sided relationship with him. It's nothing more than self-delusion. However, I must admit that an omniscient being deluding itself into believing it is justified in punishing beings for breaking rules when they never had a real choice to begin with IS quite impressive. It's infinitely scary, sure, but still impressive.
Now, let's say the future DOES exist. Because I'm a nerd and watch Doctor Who, I would say there are two possibilities with this: The future is fixed, or the future (or parts of it at least) is in flux.
If the future is fixed, then we have no free will. If God is omniscient, then I think he knew the universe would come out this way, and if he didn't, then he must have manipulated things to ensure that it DID, or he used his power to change the fixed future to what he wanted it to be. Whatever the case, there's no way the guy who cheats at wrestling and intervenes in bets where the whole point is to see what happens when he doesn't intervene is going to leave any of this to chance.
If the future is in flux, or even just partially in flux, then it's POSSIBLE that we have free will, but as I stated in the first possibility, it is superfluous. God knows all possible futures and is able to manipulate all aspects of reality, including our wills, to attain the future that he wants. And since this is the Christian God we're talking about, that means he has a Perfect Plan™, which means EVERY DETAIL will be accounted for, no matter how small. Yahweh does not strike me as someone who takes chances.
So we either have free will and it doesn't matter, or we don't have free will. Functionally, they are the exact same thing.
Pretty well argued, but I think there's a logical gap.
Matt argues that the actions of men cannot be free will if the result is predetermined. But, some results are not from the action of men, e.g. from weather, animals, natural phenomena including disasters and including breakdown of tools, sickness, etc.
There's a story for children that a boy wanted to shoot at the sun to turn it off, so he could stay home. The boy remained with the strong intent to turn off the sun, but went to school anyway.
Just to be clear, I don't think god exist and that people can clearly be made to think what someone else decided for them (Church, Fox News).
Thanks for blocking me for making a South Park reference, Matt. I've always been a big fan, always donated when I could. Sorry we couldn't just have a conversation about it
How could you be blocked
if you're here
making a comment ?
@@FoursWithin I'm talking about on Facebook;)
Free will seems to be an illusion........
You chose to be an Atheist, that's your free will. God's just observing our choices. Suggesting God chooses who believes and not, makes no sense. There's no free will if you think you're made up of random chemical matter from the sky.
One does NOT "choose" to be an atheist!
@@CNCmachiningisfun I forgot, your chemicals randomly made you reply to my message.
@@randomthoughtstoday
Are you really the "best" that your god can create?
If so, then I pity your god!
@@randomthoughtstoday
LIKING YOUR OWN COMMENTS does NOT validate them, kiddee fiddlah!
@@randomthoughtstoday
Your vile comment on my video has been reported, kiddee fiddlah!
Edit: *KARK IT,* NaziTube!
I’m new so forgive me if he has recently talked about this. Is he getting close on finishing his book If I Were God?
In any universe with an omniscient omnipotent the only will of consequence is that omniscient omnipotence. Why? Because it knows any choices you will make and can change those choices to align with its will without anyone knowing. That's what omnipotence allows. That's what omniscience allows. It becomes culpable in all choices every person has made.
Clearly we each have a will. But I don't think "free will" is a coherent concept. Free from what? Free to what?
We want things, and we make choices. But we can't want what we want.
Surely if God is omniscient, he has no free will himself which necessarily means free will cannot exist for any thinking agent ever. And if this god is omniscient, then it must be the most restricted of entities only ever being able to perform actions it already knows it will perform - no other action can ever be possible - making this 'creation' utterly deterministic
There is no free will as long as god is considered to be the answer, reason, and excuse for everything. It's a no win, circular argument. Convenient isn't it? Actually it's pretty nice not having to being responsible for yourself. The only counter is to not to play the game.
At the time God supposedly made the “as numerous as the stars” promise, people believed there were about 6000 stars. It wasn’t until the invention of the telescope that people found out there were a lot more.
As far as I'm aware, the Bible never appears to make the case that its deity has free will. In fact, it appears to make the case that its deity is utterly incapable of any change of any sort. So it's always puzzling to me when anyone asks if Yahweh might've done things differently. Clearly, no. Right?
...
Also, it seems to me only a matter of time before theism latches on to the science that indicates free will may be illusory to prop up the claim that humanity was created in Yahweh's (no-free-will-havin') image. If it hasn't already.
God defeated decay and to prove that His kind doesn’t feed off of decay ever again, His child died and returned to the first temple as a tender plant. When did Jesus say He would return and who was He talking to?
I guess you can argue and ill agree that Adam had no choice aka free will to choose which mate he would hook up with. 😂
The question is not to be taken from the perspective of God, but from that of men, since that of God escapes our knowledge.
Therefore, it is enough for me to start from my vision of the world as a human, and to note that the choices I make are free, without there being any constraint, to affirm without problem that I have free will.
But I think your problem is that you are confusing free will with absolute free will. Obviously there are things that God chooses for men, this in no way excludes the fact that He leaves them free choice regarding other things.
Although there's no god or anything supernatural, materialism kinda sucks. Illusory and irrational thinking has gotten me to many places. Being a complete realist would have hindered my progress.
If you can't prove the first sentence why bother presenting it as a fact?
Just say :idk
Easy, Honest
The Christian Gods are omniscient. These creatures cannot change their minds about future happenings, as their minds have already been made up; the future has already been determined-this does not sound like free will to me.
I’d say free will is contradictory to an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god. To watch someone being murdered and not intervene is to value the perpetrator’s will over the victim’s.
In a world where individual wills are constantly in conflict, there is no neutral way to protect everyone’s free will simultaneously. The only way out of the problem is with the disgusting copout of “mysterious ways.”
I had this convo recently too. Isaiah 46 has God saying he'll summon a man from far-off lands to fulfil his purpose, which is a clear indication of overriding free will of whatever man God mad in mind. The God of the Bible doesn't care about free will. There's a hundred such verses. It's straightforwardly incompatible to be Christian and think free will exists.
As an atheist, I don't think free will exists anyway. But Christians cannot use free will as a get-out-of-jail-free card in response to the problem of evil. Bible says no.
So, without reading the verse, that specific phrasing doesn’t contradict free will. It’s entirely possible God reaches out to some man from far-off lands, that man doesn’t accept the summons, and God moves on to someone who to someone who wants do it when asked.
@@Leith_Crowther What if no one freely wants to cooperate? Yet God has a definite plan.
So, we have few options here.
1. If God has perfect foreknowledge (Psalm 139 style) then right out the gate there's no free will (see Joe Schmidt's clip from a longer video responding to Horn on this), but at least we can make sense of a God that has a certain plan.
2. If God has no such foreknowledge, then saying he'll call up a man for his purpose can only make sense if God is willing to override free will as necessary to make his purposes come about.
Absent one of those options, I don't see how God can say what he did. (Or Isaiah to prophesy it.)
@@stephengalanisI already agreed with point 1, but I have to concede point 2 now that you point it out. I’m not a theist, but I also wasn’t right when I said your example doesn’t work.
An all powerful god that can do whatever he pleases hands out free will. That' is not free will if he can revoke it at any time for any reason.
If we’re going all meta and non-Abrahamic, there’s an option in the 3rd scenario you missed.
This is a God who literally plans on creating actual libertarian free will alongside the uniformity of nature and HAS sufficient knowledge to know all of it. This God would not be required to intervene, but merely create the initial conditions.
A God’s foreknowledge of the results of our free will does not invalidate the fact that it may be the results of actual libertarian free will which God knows.
The question then becomes: does this God have knowledge of His own behaviors? Does He have ANY choices? I don’t see how He can. And THIS presents massive contradictions with any one of those flavors of multi-omni-gods which are so popular.
The only consistent way I can define free will: the ability to make decisions in the ignorance of knowing what those decisions will be. An omniscient God doesn’t have that option.
But if the god was omni, he chose which particular universe with libertarian free will he would make. If you could have chosen differently, then he still chose rhe one in which you made specific choices. He could have made a universe in which you made other choices
@@danielsnyder2288 Yep. Assuming there’s only one universe with libertarian free will, this God would have created it. The problem here isn’t incompatibility between libertarian free will and God… it’s that God cannot have libertarian free will… and THAT is incompatible with notions like sovereignty and judgement.
🤙
While I understand what you’re saying, I am convinced that there only needs to be two prongs to eliminate free will: 1) God knows the future and 2) God cannot be wrong. If god knows right now that I will order a pepperoni pizza tomorrow at 5:15pm, and it will be done at 5:30pm, there is no other outcome that can happen for all involved. If god knows I will die at age 72, there is nothing I can do to change that as he cannot be wrong.
If there’s something I’m missing, please let me know!
@Mikechigan I literally explained all 3 prongs and why they are all required...I don't
Know what else to tell you.
Knowing the future doesn't mean there isn't free will and doesn't mean the individual who knows is the one who chose.
1. Must have created
2. Must have had a choice in creation
3. Must have known the results
Without those 3, it cannot be claimed that God necessarily impeded free will
@@SansDeity "Knowing the future doesn't mean there isn't free will"
But god isn't just all-knowing, he is additionally all-powerful. (or maximumly powerful)
Did Eve eat the apple from the tree of her own free will?
If God created her, including the things about her that could influence this decision (brain chemistry, personality, intelligence ect) AND then knowing what creating this specific Eve would result in (eating the apple), then is it not a pre-determined event, especially if this being is timeless/exists outside of time?
@@SansDeity Without those 3, should we even call it God? Or are we just dealing with a highly advanced being which itself is constrained by something? Guess it depends on how we define God. As I like to ask theists "what stops God?" Or put another way, "what prevents God from doing something?"
@@SansDeity I understand that without those three we can’t say god had control of, or impeded, our free will. My point was more that free will can’t exist if god knows every decision we will make before we make it and can’t be wrong about what we will decide. Typically free will is defined as “the ability to have done otherwise” and I just don’t see a way to do otherwise if god already knows what we will do and can’t be wrong.
@@SansDeity Matt, I respectfully disagree. If the future is known, then it must be predetermined. While I agree that knowledge itself doesn’t cause events, the fact that my writing this comment was known before I opened RUclips today means I couldn’t have done otherwise. This suggests that free will, in the sense of having the ability to choose differently, doesn’t exist
I’d like a box with an interesting rock in it!
Its Dillahuntys cat
And one has to be sleepwalking through life to believe God is real.
Since the original Word defeated decay and now can’t live as free as it used to than even God lost freewill.
The tender plant is at the first temples waiting for the gifts of water, scriptures.
Free will cannot exist under an omnipotent and omniscient creator God. It created everything in the universe and has the power to create all things which are not logically impossible, and knows all of the alternatives to its creations and all the outcomes of its creations. Yet the idea of free will is integral to the Abrahamic religions, because without some semblance of free will, the idea of ANY punishment from God is morally indefensible, with the permanence and ultimate nature of Hell being permanently and ultimately indefensible. No matter what “we” think as we go about our lives “making choices”, every thought and action we ever have and do was ultimately choreographed by God and God alone, who knew all the alternatives to his courses of action in creating us and knew the consequences of creating us exactly the way that he did. And yet people who in one way or another do not accept the Abrahamic God are still apparently being sent to Hell when they die. Why? It is immoral to punish them for really much of anything, and I mean anything, that was only ultimately done because God decided that it would be so. If God created an atheist it is only because he wanted them to be precisely as they are, and if that meant sending them to Hell, it meant he wanted to send them to Hell. And if this atheist is a fundamentally good person, it means he wanted to send this fundamentally good person to Hell for eternity, rather than not creating them (and thus not manufacturing somebody for the sole ultimate purpose of them burning in Hell forever), or creating them precisely as they are, except with an alteration to the recipe that allows for them to eventually accept God’s existence and rule. Also, objective morality sort of falls apart as I see it under the weight of non-free will. If everything is ultimately choreographed by God, this includes things like the murder of entire families, and the raping of children. Are we really going to pretend that all of these things are objectively good because “God cannot do anything that is not good,” solely because you define God that way? And how can you defend these things on this basis of Divine Command yet with a straight face also arguing, “Actually, it’s (insert Abrahamic religion) morality that makes you think and lets you know that these things are wrong.” If murder and rape are objectively wrong, how do you reconcile that with God’s orchestration of every bit of it?
Maybe you exist because you are possible, and "God" is whatever necessitates all possibility.
I rarely comment but it is my birthday actually.
Gods Test Kitchen. No Free Will this time around, but maybe you can convince me to try it next time! No? Oh well! Keep trying (harharhar)!
-Matt
What if rather than choosing the universe as in your scenario c, God already knew that that was the universe they lived in? Regardless of if he created it?
the argument of free will remains moot until such a time as it can be demonstrated to exist. otherwise it's sophistry around the main issue.
god can magic free will into existence, despite all appearances otherwise. but gods are just fiction, so free will needs to be demonstrated, without magic.
Why does Matt get mad at his opponents when debating an starts speaking over them consistently? Why does Matt walk out of debates more than anyone I’ve ever seen? Why is Matt afraid of Andrew ?? Why won’t Matt debate Andrew?? Why does Matt drink soda 🥤 everytime he thinks he made a good point in a debate with a smirk? Why does Matt believe something (meaning us an everything that exist) came from nothing??
Cuz he's a grifter in disguise. debunking religion will never make anyone an intellectual, what he says is as valuable as the people he brings on to the podium
and per most if not all theist god is at least all knowing and all powerful. then add other properties depending on religion. this means per theist we live in option C. i am of the belief our actions and thoughts are a result of past events, chaining back to the beginning of everything. so, we are in option C. quantum physics does not get you out of it. quantum physics still obeys roles we just do not know the roles fully.