Nicely done! Especially like the "whip" analogy... Sometimes I use the idea of "floating" the axe, by having a soft grip on the swing and releasing the grip slightly just before the strike.... at that point the axe can only travel in the intended direction that it was last aimed towards... this minimizes the shock transferred like you had mentioned... Again, well done! Axe-on Junkie! Peace, Rooster
I like that floating analogy. I think most people who are just starting out will have this hard "pushing" or force sort of mentality that makes hamburger of the whole process. I hope that the whip analogy, (or the throwing) sort of implies that the work is done for the most part by the time the axe hits the wood. That sort of removes the need to overgrip the axe and keep working after the work is already basically done. One problem I think though, which I alluded to a little, is that a person may not have confidence in their ability to get everything right and make the axe bite, or maybe in the axes innate ability to bite due to shape, sharpness and so on, both of which are key to feeling like you can start to relax the grip and the whole process instead of making sure you hold on for dear life so you can control the axe. I guess that just takes time and experience, as does knowing when you do actually need a firmer grip on the axe to keep it from flying 30 feet into the woods or the neighbor's yard as in limbing small limbs. No substitute for time served! Oh, and I think flexible axe handles do actually act as whips.
Took the words right out of my mouth... Practice, Practice, Practice.... I also like a slender handle... With some of the thicker ones, I find my hands and forearms becoming fatigued from trying to hold with an awkward grip.... :)
@@SkillCult Oh i found this technice too when i chipped ice in my parents driveway away. The pickaxe handle is becch and thick, since the pickaxe head is slipped on the handle. Hurt my hand if i didnt do it.
@@SkillCult self taught....I kind of instinctively came up with a style where for one millisecond I almost "let go" of the handle and then catch it again. I know it sounds dangerous but it's really just my poor description of simple damage control. I do the same thing with a hammer. I use a long handle and just loosely hold the knob at the end. When the hammer hits the nail, my grip is loose-ish.
When i was a young guy just starting out with an axe a lot of the old blokes would say "just hit the damned wood with the damned axe!" Years latter i meet up with them and their elbows, wrists and shoulders were wrecked!! Nice video, cheers.
I’m 54 years old and have been doing carpentry my whole life. Lots of my fellow carpenters have had various surgeries directly related to stress vibration on there hands wrists and shoulders. I chose many years ago to start wearing gloves and I feel that in doing so I’ve reduced the stress on my hands and arms from these kids of injuries. It’s not cool I know, and they effect dexterity but I feel it’s been worth it.
Great advice! Been chopping for fifty years. I would say that after the things that you talk about here have finally become muscle memory it's time to slow it down and relax. Your pace should be easy and confident. Your focus clear and acute always being sure to BREATH easy and slowly, resting for a moment when you feel fatigued because that's when you tighten up and force your swings as well as begin to aim your swings. Patience, Confidence in your body good sense to listen to it and not hurry will get much more done without injury . And you can enjoy yourself instead of grunting through a chore you have come to dread. Great video! I'm a subscriber! Thanks for all the hard work, I hope you all the success! Peace!
Hi Lee. Great to hear from you. I agree with all that as well. I don't always practice it lol, but it is solid advice. Relaxing is part of dialing aim in as well as I think you are indicating, no matter how "hard" a person is working. I think it's a little unfamiliar or counter-intuitive to a lot of modern folks to understand that relaxing while under intense concentration and presence, relaxing while aiming and relaxing while working "hard" is exactly how to do all of those things better. Something I try to tell people is that energy efficiency comes very much from learning what muscles and effort are actually required for the job and relaxing everything else. Over eager workers carry a lot of tension that is unnecessary, wasting energy and in the case of axe work, very likely impeding accuracy. I'm never sure if that message is getting through when I try to deliver it. I still do it myself, sometimes just because I'm out to blow off a little steam and get a work out when I first start chopping, but then I eventually warm up and settle into a more sustainable pace. You have to really. I'll eventually do some other videos talking about that stuff more and repeating some of the thigs in this video is various contexts when talking about safety, efficiency, accuracy etc.. I think it's a little bit difficult to communicate, but you plant the seed and keep repeating it, and eventually will start to make sense as people chop more. Some things can only be explained, but have to be really understood by doing. Thanks for commenting. I always love to hear from experienced choppers. I still consider myself a relative novice. I just think I understand it enough to explain it in a way that can help people accelerate their skills and efficiency more quickly and hopefully break fewer handles and avoid injury in the process. Look forward to your feedback in the future. :)
I find so many things talked about here are so similar to learning to play a musical instrument or learning any skill - and can be very difficult to learn: intensity and focus while being relaxed, efficiency in movement, using only the muscles needed while not tensing others, breathing correctly. Watch any person who has mastered just about any skill and you see these qualities. A great violinist, a great knife sharpener or sushi chef, a master woodworker, an experienced electrician.... Great videos, Thanks.
Thanks. I used hammers extensively in my railroad career. The percentage of guys I worked with that had joint issues was very high (myself included). So I appreciate you spreading knowledge.
I'm a guy who scouts free, fallen arm-sized wood for the fire pit and came across your channel when I found a piece that needed splitting. In a good way, mind is officially blown. Never knew the depth of information I'd learn on this topic. Thank you sir!
I do that too. I think a lot of the bushcraft guys process way too much wood when you can just pick stuff up and break it with your boot lol. But axes are a good tool to know how to use and in the north, a lot more wood is required to stay warm, or to keep fires burning longer.
have you read "the axe book" ? the author really tries to preach that a straight handle is the most accurate, and was proffered back before the S curve handle took over. He also stresses the blade edge should be nearly straight across, mostly no curve for most efficiency. Id like to hear your thoughts....
Good to see you here. Mad respect to you and your great channel. I haven't really kept up, but everything I've watched is super cool. Kudos and congratulations on well deserved success. I hope you blow up more. I love the axe book. It's well considered, well written and informed by experience. i recommend it regularly along with Mors Kochanski's Bushcraft. When it comes to axes, there is not a lot to recommend strongly beyond those two. Woodsmaship by Mason is pretty good and Peter Mclaren's axe manual is worth reading too, both available free online. As far as the handle goes, I think that is the area where strays a bit too far into dogma maybe. His argument is pretty strong and seems to make sense, I've just found in real life that accuracy is not very effected. Competitors rarely seem to use straight handles and they are super accurate. Also, he doesn't talk about the curve at the end of the handle. In bucking, I find an actual advantage to that small dog leg at the end of the handle. If bucking with a long handle and standing back a bit, which you sort of have to with a long handle on small wood, it's not really an issue. But if standing on the log, or right up behind it and chopping a vertical notch, or if you were standing on top of a log to hew it, there is a small, but to me still significant advantage to having the end of the handle curved over a bit to the wrist doesn't have to bend as much. I've been meaning to test that by working up some handles with varying degrees and styles of bend there, but otherwise straight and the same in other dimensions. I can fall into using a straight handle well enough, but that is the one place I notice an advantage to that one part of a curved handle. As far as aim goes, it just doesn't seem that relevant. A common assertion is that a curved handle is supposed to offset the imbalance in poll axes. I'm not sure on that one. I find that if the handle is a good design, like council tool handles for instance, they are easy to use and adapt to and find an accurate rhythm. On hatchets I don't see any real advantage to making a curved handle, but I'm still experimenting with a small cure at the end. Again though, some curvature doesn't really bother me much. I definitely dislike strongly curved handles on either. I think a lot of that is aesthetic. People like to make things look neat I guess, but it makes axe handles weaker and awkward to use. I haven't done any real A/B testing, but I dislike very curved bits. I'm not sure how much is actually functional and how much is that I'm afraid I'll end up slipping out of the cut if I'm using just the toe of the bit, which is occasionally necessary. I've use some pretty flat bits and it just seems better. My plans with the husqvarna forest axe project is to further flatten the bit outline. I know people say that more or less curved is more or less better for hard v.s. soft wood, but I cut a pretty even mix of both and it's not something I've really noticed a big difference in on casual observation. I'd really like to test out his ideal axe plan sometime with an old head. Surprising no one has made and tried to market a Dudley Cook axe. It's easy to theorize about that stuff and maybe try some axes out on a few pieces of wood, but I think for a lot of design stuff, you have to go through some wood and establish working baselines and benchmarks to gain a lot of insight. That's one reason I started the cordwood challenge is that it gives people a working laboratory in which there is enough actual working time to start figuring out what really matters and what doesn't. I think lime burning would fit great into your projects. If you have limestone or shells anywhere remotely near, you can easily set up a very simple kiln and make your own mortar and plaster material. A lot of people used to burn their own lime, or would set up at a nearby quarry in preparation for building projects. A lot of farmers also use to burn their own lime for agricultural use. If you want to explore the idea, send me a message or email me through my website and lets talk. There are a few things that are important, but it's really pretty simple and wood is actually the best fuel. I have a couple of videos you could watch to get an idea of what it entails.
Thanks for another comprehensive video Steve. Just the fact that you thought to cover this subject is something, but then you got it from every angle. Appreciate the effort, thanks.
love the end filming. good little tips on usage - I would like to add the other factor of injury by the challenge - that we just dont use our grip/hand muscles nearly enough in modern life so we (royal we) are relearning muscle usage which in turn can be painful.
Good point, conditioning and gradual conditioning. Overall we are becoming more physically degenerated. Appropriate use should result in increased resiliency.
Love it when I video of yours I’ve never seen shows up in my feed. Although I’m guessing there aren’t many left that I haven’t seen. Great explanation- thanks!
You made me start to reflect on how my thin handle on my double bit broke. Not a miss hit, but I remembered striking on the chopping platform to finish off a bucking job at 90 degrees with some extra umpph. Stupid mistake. Of course there could other factors but that perpendicular stroke was too much shock for the handle I guess. I thinned a store bought handle to replace but left a bit more meat on the bone this time. Even so, I can still feel more shock in the thicker replacement handle. The strangle hold on the handle. After coaching many years of baseball, I can tell you that what you say is true. White knuckles around any striking tool will do nothing by tense up the upper body to kill a smooth swing. I always taught my players to throw their relaxed hands at the ball and the brain would tighten the hands on the bat at the right time. Great points for thought and discussion.
Hard to say what does it sometimes, but the stuff is cumulative. Any one factor at any time might not be enough to break a handle, but add several together and it might.
"It's all good, as they say... too much..." (Thanks for the useful info. Even though these are things that many of us already subconsciously know from experience, I appreciate the elaboration and things to keep in mind.)
Great video and thin vs thick handle totally makes sense, I have a couple of axe's where the handle is so thick ifs like swigging a 2x4, very uncomfortable to grip and chopping with it is not that fun.
Great points, the physics makes sense, and it fits with my modest experience chopping and splitting, hewing, carving. I'll need to make more of a point to building these habits.
I watch several axe videos where the wood being cut/split is nice, straight-grained wood - mostly conifers from the western states it seems. Unfortunately, here in central Oklahoma, most of the wood is extremely gnarly hard oak - blackjack or *scrub* oak as we call it. There is precious little straight grain. Splitting wood here is an altogether different experience. I know how to put a proper edge on my cutting tools. Now, I'm trying to improve my technique to work as efficiently as possible. These kinds of videos are quite helpful. Thanks for sharing and keep them coming. Steve
Oklahoma wood is nothing like the rest of the stuff I see being split on utube. l think its the the combination of enviomental stresses of heavy wind, draught, heat, freezes, I've been using wood for 2 seasons. For splitting I use a 5 lb Sthl (Oxhead) splitting axe, 8 lb trupur maul (from a local farm store) and lastly a 10ish lb sledge with a variety of wedges. I live in the suburbs of the city. So my wood is curb wood left for collection or trash. much is mystery wood. some that I can identify are elm, oak, pine, pecan, cottonwood, sycamore, mullberry, and bodark. . Switching from ease of gas heating to wood has been a continuing enjoyable endeavor me. Learning the techniques collecting and caring for the tools, conditioning the muscle memory. The tips I get here helps a lot with the practical and manly arts that warm me at the end of the day.
Oklahoma wood is nothing like the rest of the stuff I see being split on utube. l think its the the combination of enviomental stresses of heavy wind, draught, heat, freezes, I've been using wood for 2 seasons. For splitting I use a 5 lb Sthl (Oxhead) splitting axe, 8 lb trupur maul (from a local farm store) and lastly a 10ish lb sledge with a variety of wedges. I live in the suburbs of the city. So my wood is curb wood left for collection or trash. much is mystery wood. some that I can identify are elm, oak, pine, pecan, cottonwood, sycamore, mullberry, and bodark. . Switching from ease of gas heating to wood has been a continuing enjoyable endeavor me. Learning the techniques collecting and caring for the tools, conditioning the muscle memory. The tips I get here helps a lot with the practical and manly arts that warm me at the end of the day.
I find myself constantly coming back to this video to remind myself of this technique. Having recently getting back into some clearing silver birch with a new axe kind of a Biscayne style almost like a Montreal pattern on a slip fit handle. The difference after bucking and limbing several trees is very profound.
I come from a blacksmithing background, but a lot of your advice would be useful to us as well. One thing I'd add to what you've said is that flexibility itself is good, but understanding where the nodes of vibration are along your handle will help you a lot as well. If the normal spot where you grip is vibrating badly, that is a quick road to carpal tunnel. Tuning it by shaving, sanding, filing, etc. will fix that, of course.
Very interesting Alexander. I never thought about that. I've done a bit of smithing and it is rough work. My smithing partner had a lot of trouble with carpal tunnel. It doesn't get much rougher than steel on steel all day long. I learned making handles and observing old hammers, I learned pretty quick to take those handles down. Thanks for weighing in.
The comments below get me wondering about thinner, whippy handles. When we consider shock as a wave traveling up the handle into the user's hands, it seems like the AMPLITUDE of that wave might be the most important factor. Won't waves of greater amplitude be set up in a thinner handle?
What a timing Mr.Edholm. Just about to go to bed, but seeing this, I was compelled to film a short clip of this upload in tandem with slightly bloody hands (that do feel stiff as well). Everything you said was right on the spot, including the 90' angle compared to ex.45', and so much more. It is hard to formulate how well you in a clear way deliberate on the various facets of axemanship, profoundly analogous to how you handle your axe, with deep cuts that sling chunky chips of fuel for [insert utility].
Well, I hope it helps. I kind of want to do a follow up vid now elaborating on some of that stuff and branching off a little bit. There's a lot to discuss and a lot of interrelatedness. Having a light handed technique is good all around. Aim is better, handles are safer, hands are safer, it's less fatiguing and more efficient and more enjoyable for the most part. But it doesn't actually preclude fairly vigorous chopping or working "hard". You just have to use it like a whip and not like a total meat head trying to club baby seals with a baseball bat (or insert other meat head analogy).
Lol, gotta club em' seals :) I sometimes try to swing, and let the backhand change it's 'center' with swing of the axe, instead of away (that gives the light whip), purely as a safety-measure when deemed needed. This way, the axehead in the event of a miss, is very unlikely to hit you due to the angle of the handle... but it is more fatiguing, and less powerful of course (aim is no much an issue once technique is accustomed). I implement this mostly when experimenting, or when trying to teach someone who has never held an axe before until they get a feel for the axe,, how it hits, how it will be to retrieve a missed shot, and then gradually encourage the more efficient way as user gets more familiar with the axe, and awareness of it is more ingrained and intuitive. For me the 'whip' requires some more training to get it always right/not dangerous, but it is certainly very satisfying.
One point you danced around, but didn't actually make explicitly, as I recall: The FEWER BLOWS one strikes, the LESS SHOCK to the hands, which is to say, cut as efficiently as possible. This relates to your points about proper sharpness, proper angle of contact, proper accuracy and placement of blows, and also the right weight of head and length of handle. If all that stuff is working right, no one is going to feel the urge to use the dreaded "death grip."
Yes, I agree for sure. Without all that stuff in play, it may take 3 times as many blows, or quite possibly more to get through a piece of wood. Also, how one uses a given weight and length of handle. Good comment, thanks.
Ditto, EC recommended you and as usual, he knows what he's talking about. Great channel. I never knew about bio char and am grateful for the knowledge. Cheers!
Awesome helping the young fella. Great video again. Grandpa always taught me big handles spit the head more and wear your ass out. His words. And the last part of the stroke is not where the power comes from, it only wear you out. And the tool does the cutting not the lumberjack. He was a helluva great ole Man, Benn missing him 25 years. You are doing an awesome thing Bro. Most folks can't work with their own hands anymore, and you are doing a helluva good job teaching them.
Tyvm. I chopped some green wood a week ago and dry wood this week. My blisters got bigger this time and I was cutting at 90 degrees. Also the edge needs to get thinner since it becomes thicker after less than half inch.
Excellent information and demonstration, thank you very much! I have a tendency to grip things too hard and make my muscles work harder than necessary. This video helped me realize that. Come spring I will have a wealth of new practical knowledge to take up in to my nearest forest. Well met!
It's a normal phenomenon. I think it just seems intuitive to try to make the tool do more work. Even when I'm starting cold after a long pause, it takes me a while to chill out and loosen up. Have fun and stay safe.
Since you are experienced, I am a bit hesitant to write a tip, but its from my Grandpa so I just wanted to share the old knowledge. Often times when you the shock in the hands or forearms, your grip at the end of the axe blow ist to tight. You exallerate, speed up the axe, the tool has its own weight (let the tiol do the work), and just before impact the only thing the you do is guiding the axe, not gripping tightly. Following its path so to say. If speed is high, and the axe is sharp and vertical to the face of the wood, you dont have to worry about anything when losening your grip slightly just a few inches before impact. It really depends on timing and it takes some time to get it right, but you feel the difference. Grandpa showed me, buy letting go of the axe completely just before impact. But dont try this please. It was for showing purposes only and he was skilled, since he chopped wood his whole life. Another thing with hollow handles. Fill them up with dry sand (due to weight) to 2/3 or 3/4, and Cover up the hole and the bottom of the handle. It will add weight slightly, but the sand inside the handle is shifting and absorbing a lot of the shock. Principal is the same as with a soft faced hammer (idk if its the right term in english, but its the hammer which has metal beads in his head so it doesnt bounce) Try it and I would love to see a Video with Feedback from you, if it worked, or was a shitty idea.😁 All the best
I wish I would have seen this video before I chopped down a tree last Sunday (5/15/23)... because a portion of my right hand is now swollen 😪. I now know why 🤦🏽♀️. Thank you 🙏🏽 #TheMoreYouKnow 🌠
Great video. Right on the money. You also touched on how the edge profile helps avoid impact stress. Great job. I like thinner handles also. I keep my pack axe handles just a bit thicker because they often see full sized axe work, but still much thinner than they come stock.
Yes, important stuff. I've already had three people doing the cordwood challenge report back with repetitive stress issues. I'm going to do more videos like this and expand on some stuff or talk about it in other contexts. I'll look forward to your feedback.
Great info. Much appreciated also. I have issues with hatchet and axe handles splitting or breaking. This will be great for working up my smithing hammer handles as well. Thank you!
Hey, awesome video! It was incredibly informative and the sound of the axe was clear and distinct. The only thing I'd like to see more of is "Show and tell", that is, demonstrate for a longer period of time. This gives people the chance to see visually at least a decent amount of work being done. Doesn't have to be a long segment, just a little longer so it's easy to see just what the hell is going on.
Noted. This was just a quick off the cuff discussion. I have more chopping time in other vids and will have more in the future and will keep that suggestion in mind. Thanks!
Another great, thought provoking video Steven. I honestly have not had much issue with handle shock from doing the challenge. I've mostly used very heavy heads though, on pretty thin handles so I don't usually heave into the cut. A light grip seems to transvere a lot less shock up your arm (I think). I'm usually tired and I get winded, but its mostly I think from repetitive lifting a lot of weight. On average I'd say I don't have my handles thinned down as well as you do, but I've only had one axe give me a lot of shock and it was from a homemade locust handle that I decided was poorly made and I stopped using it. There has to be some kind of resonance in an axe handle, like in a bow string or any flexing system, but it would be hard to say offhand if a heavy head on a short handle vs a light head on a long handle would be more shocky than the opposite? I haven't thought a lot about it, and I've just been using the axes that please me, and if an axe makes me uncomfortable I switch to a different one. So my lack of shock problems is probably more luck than design.
I have a feeling locust transfers more energy, at least sometiimes. The stuff can be like glass. I think the whole question of the axe itself from head to handle could become a pointless rabbithole to go down if one were to try to over analyze it. At some point it's sort of academic if the thing is working, it's working. I've seen you chop and you are definitely letting the axe do the cutting. That is a lot of the battle right there.
That was fun to make actually, but I kept setting it up to shoot it and getting rained out. Seriously, like three times as soon as I set up it starts raining. Unpredictable spring weather! I love making videos actually, even the editing, but it's just time consuming and sometimes stressful with other stuff to do etc. It's kind of an ideal job for me really.
Thanks, great over view. Never say never, in regards to chopping 90 degrees, in my timber framing work I find it possible to chop end grain at a 90. It seems that GB style axe has the lighter head and heaviest handle, should be the other way round, there must be a happy ground when it comes to head weight and flex in a handle, and length. You almost touch on the shape of the bit, Snow and Neally is a typical flat bit construction. I am amazed at how many folk prefer a flatter bit than a round bit profile, I encourage rounder shapes on most of my tool. Just because a bit come flat from the factory doesn't mean it need to stay that way.
Shape of bit occurred to me post production, but I don't have anything much to say about it in regards to this problem. I hafted up a little cruiser axe recently that has a very curved bit and am not a big fan in general. If anything, it seemed to hit harder than my other axes, but I'm not sure why that would be. It seems like it might be the opposite.. I tend to like it a little flatter. I'd like to try one close to perfectly flat to compare. 90 degrees just is what it is. It's a considerably slower way to get through a piece of wood, but there are other considerations of course.
Then there is the degree of flatness, I am not gung ho on super round bits, but I simply find a rounder shape performs with ease. There is something to be said for angle of approach, a round bit allow the bit not to have to be aligned perfectly with the work at hand, it give some degree to the angle of the strike, so the bit can still make its cut with out just the heal or toe digging in. Does that make sense?
If you look at most old axes that were well used back in the day, many of them have very worn heels and toes, so I think it would be odd for an axe manufacturer to over-curve the bits on new stock, since those areas see the most damage and wear. A new axe is flatter in bit curvature usually by design, and I think thats a good thing for the life of a tool that will actually see use.
Yeah, some of it makes sense theoretically. I need to do a lot more chopping with a lot more axes to figure out the sweet spot, but I'm interested in the question, especially regarding multipurpose tools which always appeals to me. I don't like excessive curvature for hewing and carving. Mostly because I tend to make, or want to be able to make, flat surfaces. Or at least that is the thing I want the tool to do best in hewing and very rounded edges don't do it very well. I"m just going to have to chop a lot more wood, sigh...;)
There are many historic examples of various surfaced hewn beams out there. Some in part are due to single beveled vs double beveled. but the curvature of the bit can inflict a scalloped surface as well, Depending on the region, and the inhabitants and were there were from will reflect the hewn surface.
I just stumbled upon you this weekend...love your vids. Really enjoying your speech cadence or however I should put that, your very area-specific accent, & use of the word "like"...I live on 10-acres in a tiny Northern CA town called Greenwood, so I'm familiar with it, & I'm a fixed blade knife & axe/hatchet lover & collector. I couldn't agree with you more on preferring thinner handles. I recently got a Prandi axe with a 2.75lb head, but the overly thick 31.5" handle makes the overall weight somewhere around 47lbs, I'm pretty sure....so that is definitely getting a radical rasping before I ever swing it; I do like the head though. But an axe I really enjoyed right out of the box is my Council Wood-Craft pack axe. It's got a 2.0lb head & a perfectly thin 23" handle - they're advertised as 24" handles, but they're 23" OAL hung. Anyhow, you may already have a vid on this axe, I'll have to go searching for it, but I love the thing...I find the handle length & head weight to be right on for me....I'm 5'7", so I dig a shorter handle, & I prefer a lighter head for speed & accuracy. Love your vids brother, keep up the great work! Scott Sherman
Hey Scott. Yep, hella norcal speak lol. I grew up in Northern and Central California around skate/surf culture. I saw some prandis and the handles looked god awful thick. The only thing I have an issue with on hatchets is control v.s. flex. If I get the flex I want for chopping, it's definitely smaller than Ideal for carving and control for that kind of finer work. Not sure what the solution is. Lighter wood maybe. I haven't seen the council woodcraft pack axe in person, but it was designed by Craig Roost, a knowledgeable, experienced user, so it makes sense that it's an out of the box solution. Rooster is legit. It looks neat. I don't really buy new stuff. I have only really bought any of the stuff I've reviewed for the sake of finding something to recommend to newbs. Otherwise, I'd not likely buy anything new. I did buy a couple of gransfors many years ago when they first were coming over here, but they were a lot cheap then. I'm still figuring out my handle length (ideal comfortable multipurpose length). I'm 5' 10" and so far I know 30 is too long and I think I could go slightly longer than 27" (those are actual, as you said, often and inch shorter than advertised.). I've got a video coming out soon of axe physics re: light v.s. heavy heads. Better go work on that actually... See ya around.
regarding head weight and handle length: I'm not any kind of expert, but I've been both a carpenter and a physics student, and the equations that come to mind and my experience swinging things like hammers and axes are what I wanted to bring up just for discussion and thought. kinetic energy K=1/2mv^2 says the mass of the axe head comes into play, but its velocity exponentially more so. force F=ma, again mass, but also acceleration, which is its change in velocity (zero at the top of the swing to however fast its going when it hits the wood). now adding a length of handle makes swinging an axe into rotational movement, and torque comes into play (having very much to do with the "radius" or handle length). rotational kinetic energy is a lot like its straight line counterpart, but K=1/2Iw^2 where I is inertia and w is rotational velocity. I think the moment of inertia equation is something like I=mr^2, but it might have more calculus... anyway, what I'm kind of getting at is that I don't think the mass of the head is as important to do work than the speed you can swing it, and a longer handle helps too. that's why I never saw the old framers hanging a 24oz hammer on their belt....
I have a basic intuitive understanding of handle length and mass+velocity and trading one for the other, but I feel unsure on differences between a heavy head at slow speed v.s. a light head at high speed as they'll certainly react differently when they hit a piece of wood. The longer handle will obviously provide more mechanical advantage for some degree of increased velocity, but I think for a given diameter is will also absorb more of the impact, or dissipate it or something. I think it kind of doesn't matter that much in terms of choosing a tool, we're either using a heavy or light axe on a, long or short handles etc chosen for other reasons..., as long as were tuning whatever we're using and using it with skill and finesse that's the part we need to pay attention to. I just brought it up because it must play some role.
Yeah I'm not sure of the differences with regards to the subject of this video, I only brought it up because I'm never ready to stop learning and trading information. At the end of the day every craftsman grabs the tool he/she is comfortable with, physics be damned. Thanks for the reply! I'm way into your content.
A few years ago I've taken up blacksmithing as a hobby. Injuries to wrists and, shoulder and elbow joints are fairly common among blacksmiths, so a guy named Hofi came up with using polyurethane sealant to connect hammer head and handle, instead of wedges. I'm not gonna make an axe any time soon, since my family already has 5 of them, for some reason, but if I was I'd try glueing the handle. Common brand names are sikaflex 11FC, sudaflex, emfimastic. The way you use it is you leave a gap between handle and eye of 3 to 5mm and you cut 5mm groves in the handle, perpendicular, so the glue can grip better. It makes a difference in handling and I've never had a glued hammer head detach.
That's very interesting. I think a lot of injury is due to bad habits, like over gripping and not letting the momentum of the head do the work. Tuned handles do help a lot in my experience, though they aren't enough on their own. Another major factor is conditioning for people who are not accustomed to the work doing too much of it too fast. Others can get away with inflexible handles without a problem, but everyone is different.
I sometimes used oak for handles before I read up on which wood to use. Way too stiff but the glue makes it usable. In a way they could be seen as preferable since they give more feedback on bad technique lol.
Yeah, no doubt and that would have less tendency to washboard, but that is usually not a huge problem. The knife is always in my pocket and it is extremely easy to hold and use, even with one hand, so there are some advantages. As you can see too the shavings are substantial, so it works pretty well. It doesn't leave the finish of a card scraper, but it's good for rough shaping and a little texture left is good on a handle. Thanks for the comment.
My repetitive stress injury related to firewood processing comes from tossing splits after they are chopped. I would get tennis elbow. I changed up my process so I am not tossing splits into the wheel barrow. :)
This man appreciates a good blade cause that pocket knife is sharp af..great point about stress damage you can get from the vibration and shock of using swinging tool like an axe or hammer, pick axe ⛏..he’s tell you this shit for your benefit not his
So I decided to go out and start trying Bush craft. after 3 months of chopping, 2 times a week. I have injured my tendon's and both of my arms. I wake up and both of my hands are numb at night. my tendon from my thumb is very tight, When I stretch it, it can hurt pretty bad. I haven't been chopping any wood since to try to stop the numbness. to let my tendons heal, but it's been a very slow process. It's been about two months since i've chopped wood and it's only about twenty percent healed. The worst is the numbness in my hands at night. It wakes me up and i cant fall asleep until its stopped. Also just about all day long i have slight numbness in all my fingers on my dominant chopping hand.
Good Video. For me, it boils down to grip and point of impact. Don't be gripping the tool hard when it makes impact. Grip it hard to firmly send the metal. Ease your grip while the metal is coasting in flight. Just loosely contain the handle at moment of impact. And make the impact solid, so you don't need to grip hard to control handle movement. Be the ball, Danny.
How does one heal/prevent/massage the tendon that connects the pointer finger to the wrist? I've been splitting rounds of red oak with an 8-lb maul and my top hand (the hand that slides on the handle) is inflammed and I can tell theres some edema/swelling indicating strain on that tendon. I figure after a couple months it'll be strong enough to withstand the work but I want to make sure it doesn't become a full-fledged injury. Have you come across any methods to heal/prevent damage to this tendon?
I'm finally doing something about the lack of properly proportioned handles. I tried contacting Skillcult. It's painfully obvious that House and Beaver Tooth are not going to fix this.
Not sure if you will see this comment but I just got a 24 " sport utility axe from ciuncil tool .I see that you use the 28 " alot and was curious if you use/like to use a 24" or just get your opinion on 24 " vs 28 " .
I don't care for 24 inch handles myself. Just not quite big enough to feel like a real axe or do the same work. 28 is common for a reason, though most these days don't know what that reason is.
Great video! Have you ever tested out shock on fiberglass handles by chance and got some input on them? I ask because for my camp van I ended up getting some fiskar axes since they were on sale and seemed to have good reviews. I've only used the chop axe and hatchet once or twice so far but not my splitter. Still plan on finding a good and affordable wooden axe to add to the collection eventually.
The fiskars are different than the regular fiberglass handles. They are hollow and I think might be some type of plastic. I do use fiberglass on my splitting maul and it's very flexible I can say that. It doesn't bother me at all. But, I haven't used the regular yellow fiberglass handles for chopping at all really. I just like them on my maul because they can take an amazing amount of abuse.
I was going to ask that exact same question. I find that the glass fiber handles thta I have come in close combat with kicks back like a mule. And I agree on not pressing in the follow-through in the stroke. Ash wood works for me, and hickory, although, here in Europe, it is not cheap. I once by mistake made a handle from elm. It kicked back too. Ash and hickory seems to dampen the shock. Not so fiber glass and elm wood.
What about techniques for cutting cord wood? And what do you think about synthetic-fiberglass handle axes? I have the Fiskars 28'' chopping axe, which cuts nicely, but I'm feeling the cumulative effect of impact, especially in my upper left back (trapezius). So I'm thinking it's my form. I'm mainly chopping cord from above at a 90 degree angle on a wood chopping block. Thanks!
Sounds like you mean splitting wood? a longer handle helps a lot. It is safer, gives you more leverage and less leaning over. Body mechanics are tricky. Almost everyone has crappy posture and body mechanics. There are solutions, but they take time and committment. Well worth it though. I recommend the basics re: Gokhale method. We use our spines too much to curl over, when it's often better to hinge at least partly at the hips. ruclips.net/video/mtQ1VqGGU74/видео.html
hi, many thanks for all your vlogs; speaking of wood type, have ever tried olive tree? yes i know it isn't exactly a well known wood in the us, but had to ask just in case.
for handles? I was just cutting down some young trees the other day that are overgrown in the nursery. I think of it as a beautiful and fine grained wood, but not very tough. I would not even try to use it as a handle unless there was nothing better. it' very pretty and turn really nice. I'd like to turn some for small handles and such. Older wood may be tougher, but I doubt any has very good characteristics for high stress tool handles. I might be wrong, but in my limited experience messing with it, that's my impression.
Scraping is a great way to remove the rough scratches from a rasp, but i don't do it as the main technique for removing lots of material since i did seriously damage the blade on my Mora trying to scrape the blade instead of using a rasp.
Scraping like that with a Mora is a great way to ruin it. I've done it plenty and it messes them up every time, especially in dry hardwood. As far as I'm concerned, moras are a second knife for delicate tasks unless you add a secondary bevel, which sort of defeats the positive effect of the grind in the first place. They are terrible multi-use carry knives.
For a good example of excellent axe use & technique, check out Mr. Chicadee's channel here on RUclips. He is a young man whom along with his lovely bride are building their home & workshop by hand in a traditional method. They are documenting the process & uploading those videos to RUclips. He also has a blog which is worth the time to check out & read. The videos are a sort of zen experience. No dialogue, monologue or talking at all. Just the sounds of nature & the surrounding woods along with the singing of an axe, chisel or hand saw on wood. There is one video in particular that I would recommend for axe use. It is about hewing a log. You can clearly see from his approach & attitude towards the axe that he lets the tool do the work & just sets to the task in a relaxed & efficient manner. He doesn't rush or try to put more power into his swings than is necessary. I found it relaxing just watching him work although I'm certain the muscles in his arms & back must have been thoroughly warm by the time he finished with just one log.
SkillCult I have several old-school local hardware stores in my area that carry Council. I pay a few dollars more, but I get to put hands on them and cherry pick. Plus helping keep small business alive👍
Never thought of that. Hope I don't do it. One thing I forgot to mention is some people will put one hand in further up the handle. That's definitely bad news, not to mention that it messes up the mechanics of chopping.
Hi. Please Help ⛑ 📚 🙏. I was using a long handled axe over a period of 4 working days, removing TREE STUMPS & their thick ROOT SYSTEMS on a property. On one swing of a very dense stump root, the fingers on both of my hands spread open wide and I have nearly any strength anymore in either arm, so that the weight of a skillet is even impossible to hold up, or lifting a quart of milk to return it to the shelf in the refrigerator, is also so difficult. I cannot manipulate my fingers: such as twisting a wire twistee bread-closer, or even have the ability to clamp either hand & fingers down on a couch pillow & pick it up. I can't break the sealed caps on any kind of beverage lid or mouthwash type "push-down & turn" lids. I definitely can't reach behind my head or keep my arms above my shoulders height w/o them wanting to drop 'dead-weightedly' down immediately. My hands have a sensation "numbness" as if their was fluid in them when I try and squeeze them, which I have no strength at all to even pop a plastic bubble wrap bubble. What happened to me on that last long-handled axe chop, on the 4th day of the tree stumps & root systems removal job? Please Help. It was 3 months ago, & despite constant exercising, stretching, and apparent momements of a tiny bit of strength return to my hands to open a milk gallon lid.....it returns to its previous weaknesses..... & has continued to remain unchanged since the the final long-handled axe swing 3 + months ago. ⛑ Do you know what has happened to me. My fingers opened wide on both hands on that last axe chop, and I sure wish I knew what it was--- btw, the hospitals were addressing everything but what I went in for......its not a dislocated shoulder, break or fracture--- nor stroke, nor severed neck from spinal cord....which I already knew because I was THERE, it seems like a "Christmas Tree" network of nerves was torn behind my central shoulders (Brachial Plexus of The Sympathetic Nervous System?) and unanimously affected everything. ; Even my mouth now stutters and it "sounds like you had a stroke when you talk", but its all connected I can tell.... ; & BOTH shoulders' muscles are CONSTANTLY SPASMING, like endless motoring of muscles constantly super-visably MOVING ALL AROUND, like a bunch of living rope strands that do not tire or sleep....constant 24-7 spasming on both shoulder muscle sides (where men commonly get tattoos), not the shoulder tops--trapezoids, nor shoulder blades....although there is a distinct "Bubble" and pressure-pain right behind the left shoulder blade which really stands out independently, of all this unified symmetrical effect. Can you Help me with any ideas or thoughts on this axe swinging injury? 🔍⛑📚 . Thank You 🙏 .
Wow, that''s terrible. I have no idea. I would certainly consider getting someone that deals with body mechanics to take a look at you, like a chiropractor or osteopath. Most of them suck though, just like any other profession, so it's hard to find a good one. but a good one might be able to read what's going on, or differentiate between structural or something else at least and hopefully help fix it. I use gokhale method as my go to for posture work. It's more about actual good posture and how you sit, work, walk and sleep than it is about corrective exercises. I didn't know what good posture was until I found them and it's helped me a lot with back, neck and shoulder stuff. Good for decompressing the spine and putting the shoulders where they should be. ruclips.net/user/results?search_query=gokhale It might help some if it is pressure on nerves that could be relieved. I hope you figure it out. That sounds really challenging. Usually axe injuries are cuts. Best of luck finding a solution.
@@SkillCult 👍🙂. Thank 🌿 You for your long response and condsidetation(s). 🙏 I'll look into the site you sent me on POSTURE. I am familiar already with that...my Health teacher in 10th grade taught us about that. I remember, because I actually took his lesson seriously, & many times throughout my life people have asked me if I had ever served in the military, because of my posture, stances and walking. I'm a subscriber already ✔ for sure ⛑📚 . You're right about not depending on too many health authorities too-- my hospital story above was an exact example. Whether it's a car repair, plumber, appraisal quote for any labor job, or even a visit to the mall...."Everybody" is trying to sell you something you don't need because because their lives are dependent on people showing up & them getting as much money out of you before you leave their dependency on you, view and oppprtunistic chance. I even watched HIDDEN CAMERA NEWS TEAMS on youtube of Dentists, Mental Hospitals recommending admission and a lot of repairs work on PRE-CHECKED people for the news story, who were 100% perfect (!) already. Thank You for your Help and answers ⛑📚 very much. You too then, learn from me....BE CAREFUL of a lot a shock blows axe swings, which your videos address....without a doubt through my example: after enough fatigue, IT IS POSSIBLE TO TEAR THE NERVES & MUSCLES BEHIND THE NECK & SHOULDERS....as did I, and have paralysis-- like a networking tree root system, that affected... e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g ... as described above. Thank You again. Take care. ⛑🌿🕊
I do this on small logs to keep the axe head from glancing and coming at me if it glances it goes to the ground it’s not that I’m tryin to force it through I’m forced the head to stay down
There is certainly some mechanical advantage to a long handle, but how the extra energy embodied in the axe head interplays or balances with a long handle potentially absorbing more shock, I'm not sure. Probably doesn't matter a whole lot.
SkillCult I bet there's some sort of notable relation to it, no? ..especially if you tune up the handle real good . thanks for showing how to do that. it makes a lot of sense now that you explained it. now you got me wondering about all my wooden handled hammers too. thanks for posting this video. I needed the education. essential craftsman mentioned this channel in one of his videos. .
It's also interesting to watch them chopping on old vintage films. They have a definite form and style, much like a batter's swing in pro baseball. Your information is accurate on all levels.
I was watching this chopping segement in the beginning of this over and over yesterday. Super efficient and insane effortless accuracy. ruclips.net/video/BA2GCw-2Ab0/видео.html. They use the momentum of the back swing to bring the axe back up and over with so little excess movement and effort. That's repetition for you. I can get into rhythms like that in bucking now when I'm warmed up, but not in felling because I don't do it enough.
I am sure handle wood may be a factor as well. I know most are hickory, but maybe other woods might absorb differently? 25 years ago I was swinging a framing hammer all day. In Windsor California. I would have to sit on my hand while driving to work. It was so stiff and practically numb. The heat would help. It would freak me out! On another note. Your handle looks a little short for your size. You seem to be leaning into your work.
I think you're right on the handle species. I haven't used a lot of other woods. Locust I guess, but it's as hard as a rock, probably worse than hickory most of the time as far as density goes. I'm still figuring out handle length. My ideal all around length might be a little longer, but probably not more than 2 inches. It's also about how you lean over, not that I'm doing it best. I'm pretty comfortable with that length though.
SkillCult I am curious now what woods they use around the world. So many hard woods available to us via the Internet. I would think each continent would have a certain local wood. Unless they all import our hickory. I do understand that perfect fit, and for different jobs. Thanks for the videos.
Ash is very common for sure. Oaks. I think the obsession with hickory is somewhat new. Old literature will say white oak, maple, hornbeam and locust on the east coast of N. America.
SkillCult I was wondering what they are using down in any Rainforest?? I enjoy working with different woods from around the world. Some I really enjoy. Some are so easy to work with. Like Bubinga, Jatoba, Purple Heart, or Rosewood just to name a few.
how do you know when thining your handle that youre too thin? seeing your axe i would have assumed would be very fragile and scared to think it to that degree
Just experience really. Watch some of my other axe handle videos where I explain why just making it thicker does not necessarily make it stronger over all. ruclips.net/video/DrghRcqbVis/видео.htmlsi=BxKPCoYThKo3McTB
I used an axe for the first time in a very long time...very rarely use one, and my left finger is killing me...it hurts so bad to bend the finger....I guess I know why now!! I pretty much did EVERYTHING wrong :(
Shock gets transferred into your hand when there's a mismatch between (~half, because that's where its center of mass is) the linear momentum of the handle at the moment of impact, and its rotational momentum around the axe head as pivot. If you imagine letting go of the axe a millisecond before impace, you want it to lodge in the wood with the end of the handle staying right where your hand left it, neither dropping down (as if you hadn't swung the axe but thrown it at the wood like a weightlifter dropping a barbell) nor swinging back up (as if you'd gripped it near its neck and chopped with your wrist). You can tune these two variable by how "swingy" your action is, and by where along the handle's length you grip it. And yes, thinning the handle will also affect the balance of momenta a bit.
Put an axe through a heavy steel eyelet, thick leather WWII Army boot. Reason, wrong technique and glanced off the tree. Ended up in the hospital. A few inches higher and would of hit an artery. If your new to using axes, pay attention to the experts, as it could truly save your life.
0.15 "you dont think this is a problem ? you re an idiot" I prefer this to the usual ´"this is only my personal opinion, I don t want to offend anyone" disclaimers.
I'm taking up a collection via paypal to buy 17 year old Patrick Hale a Council Boy's axe to finish the cordwood challenge. See my facebook page for details. 12 people @ 3.00 each and we're done. facebook.com/skillcult
Nicely done! Especially like the "whip" analogy... Sometimes I use the idea of "floating" the axe, by having a soft grip on the swing and releasing the grip slightly just before the strike.... at that point the axe can only travel in the intended direction that it was last aimed towards... this minimizes the shock transferred like you had mentioned... Again, well done! Axe-on Junkie! Peace, Rooster
I like that floating analogy. I think most people who are just starting out will have this hard "pushing" or force sort of mentality that makes hamburger of the whole process. I hope that the whip analogy, (or the throwing) sort of implies that the work is done for the most part by the time the axe hits the wood. That sort of removes the need to overgrip the axe and keep working after the work is already basically done. One problem I think though, which I alluded to a little, is that a person may not have confidence in their ability to get everything right and make the axe bite, or maybe in the axes innate ability to bite due to shape, sharpness and so on, both of which are key to feeling like you can start to relax the grip and the whole process instead of making sure you hold on for dear life so you can control the axe. I guess that just takes time and experience, as does knowing when you do actually need a firmer grip on the axe to keep it from flying 30 feet into the woods or the neighbor's yard as in limbing small limbs. No substitute for time served! Oh, and I think flexible axe handles do actually act as whips.
Took the words right out of my mouth... Practice, Practice, Practice.... I also like a slender handle... With some of the thicker ones, I find my hands and forearms becoming fatigued from trying to hold with an awkward grip.... :)
@@SkillCult Oh i found this technice too when i chipped ice in my parents driveway away. The pickaxe handle is becch and thick, since the pickaxe head is slipped on the handle. Hurt my hand if i didnt do it.
@@SkillCult self taught....I kind of instinctively came up with a style where for one millisecond I almost "let go" of the handle and then catch it again. I know it sounds dangerous but it's really just my poor description of simple damage control.
I do the same thing with a hammer. I use a long handle and just loosely hold the knob at the end. When the hammer hits the nail, my grip is loose-ish.
When i was a young guy just starting out with an axe a lot of the old blokes would say "just hit the damned wood with the damned axe!" Years latter i meet up with them and their elbows, wrists and shoulders were wrecked!! Nice video, cheers.
Lol, I like the old timers were dumbasses stories sprinkled in with the reverent old timers were wise stories. Great user name, ha ha.
I’m 54 years old and have been doing carpentry my whole life. Lots of my fellow carpenters have had various surgeries directly related to stress vibration on there hands wrists and shoulders. I chose many years ago to start wearing gloves and I feel that in doing so I’ve reduced the stress on my hands and arms from these kids of injuries. It’s not cool I know, and they effect dexterity but I feel it’s been worth it.
What are the best kind of gloves for axe handling?
This guy is clearly grounded and knows his shit.
Great advice! Been chopping for fifty years. I would say that after the things that you talk about here have finally become muscle memory it's time to slow it down and relax. Your pace should be easy and confident. Your focus clear and acute always being sure to BREATH easy and slowly, resting for a moment when you feel fatigued because that's when you tighten up and force your swings as well as begin to aim your swings. Patience, Confidence in your body good sense to listen to it and not hurry will get much more done without injury . And you can enjoy yourself instead of grunting through a chore you have come to dread. Great video! I'm a subscriber! Thanks for all the hard work, I hope you all the success! Peace!
Hi Lee. Great to hear from you. I agree with all that as well. I don't always practice it lol, but it is solid advice. Relaxing is part of dialing aim in as well as I think you are indicating, no matter how "hard" a person is working. I think it's a little unfamiliar or counter-intuitive to a lot of modern folks to understand that relaxing while under intense concentration and presence, relaxing while aiming and relaxing while working "hard" is exactly how to do all of those things better. Something I try to tell people is that energy efficiency comes very much from learning what muscles and effort are actually required for the job and relaxing everything else. Over eager workers carry a lot of tension that is unnecessary, wasting energy and in the case of axe work, very likely impeding accuracy. I'm never sure if that message is getting through when I try to deliver it. I still do it myself, sometimes just because I'm out to blow off a little steam and get a work out when I first start chopping, but then I eventually warm up and settle into a more sustainable pace. You have to really. I'll eventually do some other videos talking about that stuff more and repeating some of the thigs in this video is various contexts when talking about safety, efficiency, accuracy etc.. I think it's a little bit difficult to communicate, but you plant the seed and keep repeating it, and eventually will start to make sense as people chop more. Some things can only be explained, but have to be really understood by doing. Thanks for commenting. I always love to hear from experienced choppers. I still consider myself a relative novice. I just think I understand it enough to explain it in a way that can help people accelerate their skills and efficiency more quickly and hopefully break fewer handles and avoid injury in the process. Look forward to your feedback in the future. :)
I find so many things talked about here are so similar to learning to play a musical instrument or learning any skill - and can be very difficult to learn: intensity and focus while being relaxed, efficiency in movement, using only the muscles needed while not tensing others, breathing correctly. Watch any person who has mastered just about any skill and you see these qualities. A great violinist, a great knife sharpener or sushi chef, a master woodworker, an experienced electrician.... Great videos, Thanks.
@@somasabul3883
"Slow is smooth.
Smooth is fast.
Learn accuracy.
Speed will follow!
"If you don't think this is a problem your an idiot" I love his honesty 😂
Thanks. I used hammers extensively in my railroad career. The percentage of guys I worked with that had joint issues was very high (myself included). So I appreciate you spreading knowledge.
I'm a guy who scouts free, fallen arm-sized wood for the fire pit and came across your channel when I found a piece that needed splitting. In a good way, mind is officially blown. Never knew the depth of information I'd learn on this topic. Thank you sir!
I do that too. I think a lot of the bushcraft guys process way too much wood when you can just pick stuff up and break it with your boot lol. But axes are a good tool to know how to use and in the north, a lot more wood is required to stay warm, or to keep fires burning longer.
Thank you so much for taking the time to teach us part-timers. Your vast experience has taught you well.
I love the death grip analogy, it's also true of saw work- always let the saw do the work, light full strokes will always get the job done quicker!!!
have you read "the axe book" ? the author really tries to preach that a straight handle is the most accurate, and was proffered back before the S curve handle took over. He also stresses the blade edge should be nearly straight across, mostly no curve for most efficiency. Id like to hear your thoughts....
Good to see you here. Mad respect to you and your great channel. I haven't really kept up, but everything I've watched is super cool. Kudos and congratulations on well deserved success. I hope you blow up more. I love the axe book. It's well considered, well written and informed by experience. i recommend it regularly along with Mors Kochanski's Bushcraft. When it comes to axes, there is not a lot to recommend strongly beyond those two. Woodsmaship by Mason is pretty good and Peter Mclaren's axe manual is worth reading too, both available free online. As far as the handle goes, I think that is the area where strays a bit too far into dogma maybe. His argument is pretty strong and seems to make sense, I've just found in real life that accuracy is not very effected. Competitors rarely seem to use straight handles and they are super accurate. Also, he doesn't talk about the curve at the end of the handle. In bucking, I find an actual advantage to that small dog leg at the end of the handle. If bucking with a long handle and standing back a bit, which you sort of have to with a long handle on small wood, it's not really an issue. But if standing on the log, or right up behind it and chopping a vertical notch, or if you were standing on top of a log to hew it, there is a small, but to me still significant advantage to having the end of the handle curved over a bit to the wrist doesn't have to bend as much. I've been meaning to test that by working up some handles with varying degrees and styles of bend there, but otherwise straight and the same in other dimensions. I can fall into using a straight handle well enough, but that is the one place I notice an advantage to that one part of a curved handle. As far as aim goes, it just doesn't seem that relevant. A common assertion is that a curved handle is supposed to offset the imbalance in poll axes. I'm not sure on that one. I find that if the handle is a good design, like council tool handles for instance, they are easy to use and adapt to and find an accurate rhythm. On hatchets I don't see any real advantage to making a curved handle, but I'm still experimenting with a small cure at the end. Again though, some curvature doesn't really bother me much. I definitely dislike strongly curved handles on either. I think a lot of that is aesthetic. People like to make things look neat I guess, but it makes axe handles weaker and awkward to use.
I haven't done any real A/B testing, but I dislike very curved bits. I'm not sure how much is actually functional and how much is that I'm afraid I'll end up slipping out of the cut if I'm using just the toe of the bit, which is occasionally necessary. I've use some pretty flat bits and it just seems better. My plans with the husqvarna forest axe project is to further flatten the bit outline. I know people say that more or less curved is more or less better for hard v.s. soft wood, but I cut a pretty even mix of both and it's not something I've really noticed a big difference in on casual observation. I'd really like to test out his ideal axe plan sometime with an old head. Surprising no one has made and tried to market a Dudley Cook axe. It's easy to theorize about that stuff and maybe try some axes out on a few pieces of wood, but I think for a lot of design stuff, you have to go through some wood and establish working baselines and benchmarks to gain a lot of insight. That's one reason I started the cordwood challenge is that it gives people a working laboratory in which there is enough actual working time to start figuring out what really matters and what doesn't.
I think lime burning would fit great into your projects. If you have limestone or shells anywhere remotely near, you can easily set up a very simple kiln and make your own mortar and plaster material. A lot of people used to burn their own lime, or would set up at a nearby quarry in preparation for building projects. A lot of farmers also use to burn their own lime for agricultural use. If you want to explore the idea, send me a message or email me through my website and lets talk. There are a few things that are important, but it's really pretty simple and wood is actually the best fuel. I have a couple of videos you could watch to get an idea of what it entails.
Thanks for another comprehensive video Steve. Just the fact that you thought to cover this subject is something, but then you got it from every angle. Appreciate the effort, thanks.
Excellent strategy, the speed of the ax before impact and the grip at impact has helped me. thank you for this video
love the end filming.
good little tips on usage - I would like to add the other factor of injury by the challenge - that we just dont use our grip/hand muscles nearly enough in modern life so we (royal we) are relearning muscle usage which in turn can be painful.
Good point, conditioning and gradual conditioning. Overall we are becoming more physically degenerated. Appropriate use should result in increased resiliency.
Love it when I video of yours I’ve never seen shows up in my feed. Although I’m guessing there aren’t many left that I haven’t seen.
Great explanation- thanks!
You made me start to reflect on how my thin handle on my double bit broke. Not a miss hit, but I remembered striking on the chopping platform to finish off a bucking job at 90 degrees with some extra umpph. Stupid mistake. Of course there could other factors but that perpendicular stroke was too much shock for the handle I guess. I thinned a store bought handle to replace but left a bit more meat on the bone this time. Even so, I can still feel more shock in the thicker replacement handle.
The strangle hold on the handle. After coaching many years of baseball, I can tell you that what you say is true. White knuckles around any striking tool will do nothing by tense up the upper body to kill a smooth swing. I always taught my players to throw their relaxed hands at the ball and the brain would tighten the hands on the bat at the right time.
Great points for thought and discussion.
Hard to say what does it sometimes, but the stuff is cumulative. Any one factor at any time might not be enough to break a handle, but add several together and it might.
"It's all good, as they say... too much..." (Thanks for the useful info. Even though these are things that many of us already subconsciously know from experience, I appreciate the elaboration and things to keep in mind.)
Great video and thin vs thick handle totally makes sense, I have a couple of axe's where the handle is so thick ifs like swigging a 2x4, very uncomfortable to grip and chopping with it is not that fun.
'zackly.
Great points, the physics makes sense, and it fits with my modest experience chopping and splitting, hewing, carving. I'll need to make more of a point to building these habits.
I watch several axe videos where the wood being cut/split is nice, straight-grained wood - mostly conifers from the western states it seems. Unfortunately, here in central Oklahoma, most of the wood is extremely gnarly hard oak - blackjack or *scrub* oak as we call it. There is precious little straight grain. Splitting wood here is an altogether different experience. I know how to put a proper edge on my cutting tools. Now, I'm trying to improve my technique to work as efficiently as possible. These kinds of videos are quite helpful. Thanks for sharing and keep them coming.
Steve
We have gnarly stuff too, but most of it splits pretty well with an axe, especially if it's axe cut, which seems to split easier.
Oklahoma wood is nothing like the rest of the stuff I see being split on utube. l think its the the combination of enviomental stresses of heavy wind, draught, heat, freezes, I've been using wood for 2 seasons. For splitting I use a 5 lb Sthl (Oxhead) splitting axe, 8 lb trupur maul (from a local farm store) and lastly a 10ish lb sledge with a variety of wedges. I live in the suburbs of the city. So my wood is curb wood left for collection or trash. much is mystery wood. some that I can identify are elm, oak, pine, pecan, cottonwood, sycamore, mullberry, and bodark. . Switching from ease of gas heating to wood has been a continuing enjoyable endeavor me. Learning the techniques collecting and caring for the tools, conditioning the muscle memory. The tips I get here helps a lot with the practical and manly arts that warm me at the end of the day.
Oklahoma wood is nothing like the rest of the stuff I see being split on utube. l think its the the combination of enviomental stresses of heavy wind, draught, heat, freezes, I've been using wood for 2 seasons. For splitting I use a 5 lb Sthl (Oxhead) splitting axe, 8 lb trupur maul (from a local farm store) and lastly a 10ish lb sledge with a variety of wedges. I live in the suburbs of the city. So my wood is curb wood left for collection or trash. much is mystery wood. some that I can identify are elm, oak, pine, pecan, cottonwood, sycamore, mullberry, and bodark. . Switching from ease of gas heating to wood has been a continuing enjoyable endeavor me. Learning the techniques collecting and caring for the tools, conditioning the muscle memory. The tips I get here helps a lot with the practical and manly arts that warm me at the end of the day.
I love splitting wood, and cutting it and all of it.
@@erickkiessling5570 you haven't enjoy splitting or chopping until you've chopped Olive wood.
I find myself constantly coming back to this video to remind myself of this technique. Having recently getting back into some clearing silver birch with a new axe kind of a Biscayne style almost like a Montreal pattern on a slip fit handle. The difference after bucking and limbing several trees is very profound.
I come from a blacksmithing background, but a lot of your advice would be useful to us as well. One thing I'd add to what you've said is that flexibility itself is good, but understanding where the nodes of vibration are along your handle will help you a lot as well. If the normal spot where you grip is vibrating badly, that is a quick road to carpal tunnel. Tuning it by shaving, sanding, filing, etc. will fix that, of course.
Very interesting Alexander. I never thought about that. I've done a bit of smithing and it is rough work. My smithing partner had a lot of trouble with carpal tunnel. It doesn't get much rougher than steel on steel all day long. I learned making handles and observing old hammers, I learned pretty quick to take those handles down. Thanks for weighing in.
Older ways are often the right way. Great channel.
The comments below get me wondering about thinner, whippy handles. When we consider shock as a wave traveling up the handle into the user's hands, it seems like the AMPLITUDE of that wave might be the most important factor. Won't waves of greater amplitude be set up in a thinner handle?
Thanks for making vids like this one man. Truly helpful
Thank you magical mystery man
What a timing Mr.Edholm. Just about to go to bed, but seeing this, I was compelled to film a short clip of this upload in tandem with slightly bloody hands (that do feel stiff as well). Everything you said was right on the spot, including the 90' angle compared to ex.45', and so much more. It is hard to formulate how well you in a clear way deliberate on the various facets of axemanship, profoundly analogous to how you handle your axe, with deep cuts that sling chunky chips of fuel for [insert utility].
Well, I hope it helps. I kind of want to do a follow up vid now elaborating on some of that stuff and branching off a little bit. There's a lot to discuss and a lot of interrelatedness. Having a light handed technique is good all around. Aim is better, handles are safer, hands are safer, it's less fatiguing and more efficient and more enjoyable for the most part. But it doesn't actually preclude fairly vigorous chopping or working "hard". You just have to use it like a whip and not like a total meat head trying to club baby seals with a baseball bat (or insert other meat head analogy).
Lol, gotta club em' seals :) I sometimes try to swing, and let the backhand change it's 'center' with swing of the axe, instead of away (that gives the light whip), purely as a safety-measure when deemed needed. This way, the axehead in the event of a miss, is very unlikely to hit you due to the angle of the handle... but it is more fatiguing, and less powerful of course (aim is no much an issue once technique is accustomed).
I implement this mostly when experimenting, or when trying to teach someone who has never held an axe before until they get a feel for the axe,, how it hits, how it will be to retrieve a missed shot, and then gradually encourage the more efficient way as user gets more familiar with the axe, and awareness of it is more ingrained and intuitive.
For me the 'whip' requires some more training to get it always right/not dangerous, but it is certainly very satisfying.
One point you danced around, but didn't actually make explicitly, as I recall: The FEWER BLOWS one strikes, the LESS SHOCK to the hands, which is to say, cut as efficiently as possible. This relates to your points about proper sharpness, proper angle of contact, proper accuracy and placement of blows, and also the right weight of head and length of handle. If all that stuff is working right, no one is going to feel the urge to use the dreaded "death grip."
Yes, I agree for sure. Without all that stuff in play, it may take 3 times as many blows, or quite possibly more to get through a piece of wood. Also, how one uses a given weight and length of handle. Good comment, thanks.
thank you this was rather helpful and nice and short
bad ass video....essential craftsman sent me here...just subcribed👍
Thanks man and welcome aboard.
Ditto, EC recommended you and as usual, he knows what he's talking about. Great channel. I never knew about bio char and am grateful for the knowledge. Cheers!
Awesome, welcome Ashley :)
josh ramirez Essential Craftsman sent me too.
30 seconds in, and you have my like!
Thorough & Thoreau. Thank you for this presentation.
clever :)
Awesome helping the young fella. Great video again. Grandpa always taught me big handles spit the head more and wear your ass out. His words. And the last part of the stroke is not where the power comes from, it only wear you out. And the tool does the cutting not the lumberjack. He was a helluva great ole Man, Benn missing him 25 years. You are doing an awesome thing Bro. Most folks can't work with their own hands anymore, and you are doing a helluva good job teaching them.
Some sound advice there. We'll keep up the good fight for Gramps! ;)
Got enough for the Axe for the young fella?
Tyvm. I chopped some green wood a week ago and dry wood this week. My blisters got bigger this time and I was cutting at 90 degrees. Also the edge needs to get thinner since it becomes thicker after less than half inch.
Excellent information and demonstration, thank you very much! I have a tendency to grip things too hard and make my muscles work harder than necessary. This video helped me realize that. Come spring I will have a wealth of new practical knowledge to take up in to my nearest forest. Well met!
It's a normal phenomenon. I think it just seems intuitive to try to make the tool do more work. Even when I'm starting cold after a long pause, it takes me a while to chill out and loosen up. Have fun and stay safe.
Since you are experienced, I am a bit hesitant to write a tip, but its from my Grandpa so I just wanted to share the old knowledge.
Often times when you the shock in the hands or forearms, your grip at the end of the axe blow ist to tight. You exallerate, speed up the axe, the tool has its own weight (let the tiol do the work), and just before impact the only thing the you do is guiding the axe, not gripping tightly. Following its path so to say.
If speed is high, and the axe is sharp and vertical to the face of the wood, you dont have to worry about anything when losening your grip slightly just a few inches before impact. It really depends on timing and it takes some time to get it right, but you feel the difference.
Grandpa showed me, buy letting go of the axe completely just before impact. But dont try this please. It was for showing purposes only and he was skilled, since he chopped wood his whole life.
Another thing with hollow handles.
Fill them up with dry sand (due to weight) to 2/3 or 3/4, and Cover up the hole and the bottom of the handle.
It will add weight slightly, but the sand inside the handle is shifting and absorbing a lot of the shock.
Principal is the same as with a soft faced hammer (idk if its the right term in english, but its the hammer which has metal beads in his head so it doesnt bounce)
Try it and I would love to see a Video with Feedback from you, if it worked, or was a shitty idea.😁
All the best
I wish I would have seen this video before I chopped down a tree last Sunday (5/15/23)... because a portion of my right hand is now swollen 😪. I now know why 🤦🏽♀️. Thank you 🙏🏽 #TheMoreYouKnow 🌠
If only I watched this video before my elbow tendons got inflamed.
Just take a good long break.I've had a lot of tendonitis, mostly from tanning leather, but it eventually goes away.
This was a great video, thank you!
This video and your linseed video's have helped me the most. Complete new view to how I see and use an axe. Thanks.
Awesome :)
Great video. Right on the money. You also touched on how the edge profile helps avoid impact stress. Great job. I like thinner handles also. I keep my pack axe handles just a bit thicker because they often see full sized axe work, but still much thinner than they come stock.
Yes, important stuff. I've already had three people doing the cordwood challenge report back with repetitive stress issues. I'm going to do more videos like this and expand on some stuff or talk about it in other contexts. I'll look forward to your feedback.
Thank you
Great info. Much appreciated also. I have issues with hatchet and axe handles splitting or breaking. This will be great for working up my smithing hammer handles as well. Thank you!
Cool, hope it helps. I've broke a lot of handles :)
Hey, awesome video! It was incredibly informative and the sound of the axe was clear and distinct.
The only thing I'd like to see more of is "Show and tell", that is, demonstrate for a longer period of time. This gives people the chance to see visually at least a decent amount of work being done. Doesn't have to be a long segment, just a little longer so it's easy to see just what the hell is going on.
Noted. This was just a quick off the cuff discussion. I have more chopping time in other vids and will have more in the future and will keep that suggestion in mind. Thanks!
Another great, thought provoking video Steven. I honestly have not had much issue with handle shock from doing the challenge. I've mostly used very heavy heads though, on pretty thin handles so I don't usually heave into the cut. A light grip seems to transvere a lot less shock up your arm (I think). I'm usually tired and I get winded, but its mostly I think from repetitive lifting a lot of weight. On average I'd say I don't have my handles thinned down as well as you do, but I've only had one axe give me a lot of shock and it was from a homemade locust handle that I decided was poorly made and I stopped using it. There has to be some kind of resonance in an axe handle, like in a bow string or any flexing system, but it would be hard to say offhand if a heavy head on a short handle vs a light head on a long handle would be more shocky than the opposite? I haven't thought a lot about it, and I've just been using the axes that please me, and if an axe makes me uncomfortable I switch to a different one. So my lack of shock problems is probably more luck than design.
I have a feeling locust transfers more energy, at least sometiimes. The stuff can be like glass. I think the whole question of the axe itself from head to handle could become a pointless rabbithole to go down if one were to try to over analyze it. At some point it's sort of academic if the thing is working, it's working. I've seen you chop and you are definitely letting the axe do the cutting. That is a lot of the battle right there.
Good information there. At my age I need all the help I can get. I just love your axe videos. Thanks.
Thank you.
Great Advice! It takes many hours of self-abuses before discovering this widom. I wish I had seen these videoes when I was in Scouts...
:)
Keep up the great videos. We love em, even if they aren't always enjoyable to make.
That was fun to make actually, but I kept setting it up to shoot it and getting rained out. Seriously, like three times as soon as I set up it starts raining. Unpredictable spring weather! I love making videos actually, even the editing, but it's just time consuming and sometimes stressful with other stuff to do etc. It's kind of an ideal job for me really.
Thanks, great over view. Never say never, in regards to chopping 90 degrees, in my timber framing work I find it possible to chop end grain at a 90. It seems that GB style axe has the lighter head and heaviest handle, should be the other way round, there must be a happy ground when it comes to head weight and flex in a handle, and length. You almost touch on the shape of the bit, Snow and Neally is a typical flat bit construction. I am amazed at how many folk prefer a flatter bit than a round bit profile, I encourage rounder shapes on most of my tool. Just because a bit come flat from the factory doesn't mean it need to stay that way.
Shape of bit occurred to me post production, but I don't have anything much to say about it in regards to this problem. I hafted up a little cruiser axe recently that has a very curved bit and am not a big fan in general. If anything, it seemed to hit harder than my other axes, but I'm not sure why that would be. It seems like it might be the opposite.. I tend to like it a little flatter. I'd like to try one close to perfectly flat to compare. 90 degrees just is what it is. It's a considerably slower way to get through a piece of wood, but there are other considerations of course.
Then there is the degree of flatness, I am not gung ho on super round bits, but I simply find a rounder shape performs with ease. There is something to be said for angle of approach, a round bit allow the bit not to have to be aligned perfectly with the work at hand, it give some degree to the angle of the strike, so the bit can still make its cut with out just the heal or toe digging in. Does that make sense?
If you look at most old axes that were well used back in the day, many of them have very worn heels and toes, so I think it would be odd for an axe manufacturer to over-curve the bits on new stock, since those areas see the most damage and wear. A new axe is flatter in bit curvature usually by design, and I think thats a good thing for the life of a tool that will actually see use.
Yeah, some of it makes sense theoretically. I need to do a lot more chopping with a lot more axes to figure out the sweet spot, but I'm interested in the question, especially regarding multipurpose tools which always appeals to me. I don't like excessive curvature for hewing and carving. Mostly because I tend to make, or want to be able to make, flat surfaces. Or at least that is the thing I want the tool to do best in hewing and very rounded edges don't do it very well. I"m just going to have to chop a lot more wood, sigh...;)
There are many historic examples of various surfaced hewn beams out there. Some in part are due to single beveled vs double beveled. but the curvature of the bit can inflict a scalloped surface as well, Depending on the region, and the inhabitants and were there were from will reflect the hewn surface.
I just stumbled upon you this weekend...love your vids. Really enjoying your speech cadence or however I should put that, your very area-specific accent, & use of the word "like"...I live on 10-acres in a tiny Northern CA town called Greenwood, so I'm familiar with it, & I'm a fixed blade knife & axe/hatchet lover & collector. I couldn't agree with you more on preferring thinner handles. I recently got a Prandi axe with a 2.75lb head, but the overly thick 31.5" handle makes the overall weight somewhere around 47lbs, I'm pretty sure....so that is definitely getting a radical rasping before I ever swing it; I do like the head though. But an axe I really enjoyed right out of the box is my Council Wood-Craft pack axe. It's got a 2.0lb head & a perfectly thin 23" handle - they're advertised as 24" handles, but they're 23" OAL hung. Anyhow, you may already have a vid on this axe, I'll have to go searching for it, but I love the thing...I find the handle length & head weight to be right on for me....I'm 5'7", so I dig a shorter handle, & I prefer a lighter head for speed & accuracy. Love your vids brother, keep up the great work! Scott Sherman
Hey Scott. Yep, hella norcal speak lol. I grew up in Northern and Central California around skate/surf culture. I saw some prandis and the handles looked god awful thick. The only thing I have an issue with on hatchets is control v.s. flex. If I get the flex I want for chopping, it's definitely smaller than Ideal for carving and control for that kind of finer work. Not sure what the solution is. Lighter wood maybe. I haven't seen the council woodcraft pack axe in person, but it was designed by Craig Roost, a knowledgeable, experienced user, so it makes sense that it's an out of the box solution. Rooster is legit. It looks neat. I don't really buy new stuff. I have only really bought any of the stuff I've reviewed for the sake of finding something to recommend to newbs. Otherwise, I'd not likely buy anything new. I did buy a couple of gransfors many years ago when they first were coming over here, but they were a lot cheap then. I'm still figuring out my handle length (ideal comfortable multipurpose length). I'm 5' 10" and so far I know 30 is too long and I think I could go slightly longer than 27" (those are actual, as you said, often and inch shorter than advertised.). I've got a video coming out soon of axe physics re: light v.s. heavy heads. Better go work on that actually... See ya around.
regarding head weight and handle length: I'm not any kind of expert, but I've been both a carpenter and a physics student, and the equations that come to mind and my experience swinging things like hammers and axes are what I wanted to bring up just for discussion and thought. kinetic energy K=1/2mv^2 says the mass of the axe head comes into play, but its velocity exponentially more so. force F=ma, again mass, but also acceleration, which is its change in velocity (zero at the top of the swing to however fast its going when it hits the wood). now adding a length of handle makes swinging an axe into rotational movement, and torque comes into play (having very much to do with the "radius" or handle length). rotational kinetic energy is a lot like its straight line counterpart, but K=1/2Iw^2 where I is inertia and w is rotational velocity. I think the moment of inertia equation is something like I=mr^2, but it might have more calculus... anyway, what I'm kind of getting at is that I don't think the mass of the head is as important to do work than the speed you can swing it, and a longer handle helps too. that's why I never saw the old framers hanging a 24oz hammer on their belt....
I have a basic intuitive understanding of handle length and mass+velocity and trading one for the other, but I feel unsure on differences between a heavy head at slow speed v.s. a light head at high speed as they'll certainly react differently when they hit a piece of wood. The longer handle will obviously provide more mechanical advantage for some degree of increased velocity, but I think for a given diameter is will also absorb more of the impact, or dissipate it or something. I think it kind of doesn't matter that much in terms of choosing a tool, we're either using a heavy or light axe on a, long or short handles etc chosen for other reasons..., as long as were tuning whatever we're using and using it with skill and finesse that's the part we need to pay attention to. I just brought it up because it must play some role.
Yeah I'm not sure of the differences with regards to the subject of this video, I only brought it up because I'm never ready to stop learning and trading information. At the end of the day every craftsman grabs the tool he/she is comfortable with, physics be damned. Thanks for the reply! I'm way into your content.
A few years ago I've taken up blacksmithing as a hobby. Injuries to wrists and, shoulder and elbow joints are fairly common among blacksmiths, so a guy named Hofi came up with using polyurethane sealant to connect hammer head and handle, instead of wedges. I'm not gonna make an axe any time soon, since my family already has 5 of them, for some reason, but if I was I'd try glueing the handle. Common brand names are sikaflex 11FC, sudaflex, emfimastic. The way you use it is you leave a gap between handle and eye of 3 to 5mm and you cut 5mm groves in the handle, perpendicular, so the glue can grip better. It makes a difference in handling and I've never had a glued hammer head detach.
That's very interesting. I think a lot of injury is due to bad habits, like over gripping and not letting the momentum of the head do the work. Tuned handles do help a lot in my experience, though they aren't enough on their own. Another major factor is conditioning for people who are not accustomed to the work doing too much of it too fast. Others can get away with inflexible handles without a problem, but everyone is different.
I sometimes used oak for handles before I read up on which wood to use. Way too stiff but the glue makes it usable. In a way they could be seen as preferable since they give more feedback on bad technique lol.
I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but a card scraper would work really well.
Yeah, no doubt and that would have less tendency to washboard, but that is usually not a huge problem. The knife is always in my pocket and it is extremely easy to hold and use, even with one hand, so there are some advantages. As you can see too the shavings are substantial, so it works pretty well. It doesn't leave the finish of a card scraper, but it's good for rough shaping and a little texture left is good on a handle. Thanks for the comment.
best instruction video ever, thanks
Thanks man!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! That's a very informative vid. - Davi
Welcome Davi.
My repetitive stress injury related to firewood processing comes from tossing splits after they are chopped. I would get tennis elbow. I changed up my process so I am not tossing splits into the wheel barrow. :)
Yep, work smart and you can still work hard!
This man appreciates a good blade cause that pocket knife is sharp af..great point about stress damage you can get from the vibration and shock of using swinging tool like an axe or hammer, pick axe ⛏..he’s tell you this shit for your benefit not his
So I decided to go out and start trying Bush craft. after 3 months of chopping, 2 times a week. I have injured my tendon's and both of my arms. I wake up and both of my hands are numb at night. my tendon from my thumb is very tight, When I stretch it, it can hurt pretty bad. I haven't been chopping any wood since to try to stop the numbness. to let my tendons heal, but it's been a very slow process. It's been about two months since i've chopped wood and it's only about twenty percent healed.
The worst is the numbness in my hands at night. It wakes me up and i cant fall asleep until its stopped.
Also just about all day long i have slight numbness in all my fingers on my dominant chopping hand.
take enough time and then apply the principals I talk about in this video. hope you heal up well.
@@SkillCult thanks! It has gotten better with time but I've had to take time off of the gym, which I hate.
Good Video. For me, it boils down to grip and point of impact. Don't be gripping the tool hard when it makes impact. Grip it hard to firmly send the metal. Ease your grip while the metal is coasting in flight. Just loosely contain the handle at moment of impact. And make the impact solid, so you don't need to grip hard to control handle movement. Be the ball, Danny.
How does one heal/prevent/massage the tendon that connects the pointer finger to the wrist? I've been splitting rounds of red oak with an 8-lb maul and my top hand (the hand that slides on the handle) is inflammed and I can tell theres some edema/swelling indicating strain on that tendon. I figure after a couple months it'll be strong enough to withstand the work but I want to make sure it doesn't become a full-fledged injury. Have you come across any methods to heal/prevent damage to this tendon?
I'm finally doing something about the lack of properly proportioned handles. I tried contacting Skillcult. It's painfully obvious that House and Beaver Tooth are not going to fix this.
Yes, good! It's a gaping hole in the market waiting to be filled.
Not sure if you will see this comment but I just got a 24 " sport utility axe from ciuncil tool .I see that you use the 28 " alot and was curious if you use/like to use a 24" or just get your opinion on 24 " vs 28 " .
I don't care for 24 inch handles myself. Just not quite big enough to feel like a real axe or do the same work. 28 is common for a reason, though most these days don't know what that reason is.
@@SkillCult ya I only use mine when I can get out for a boil up lol few logs to split for the day .... 👍
Great video! Have you ever tested out shock on fiberglass handles by chance and got some input on them? I ask because for my camp van I ended up getting some fiskar axes since they were on sale and seemed to have good reviews. I've only used the chop axe and hatchet once or twice so far but not my splitter. Still plan on finding a good and affordable wooden axe to add to the collection eventually.
The fiskars are different than the regular fiberglass handles. They are hollow and I think might be some type of plastic. I do use fiberglass on my splitting maul and it's very flexible I can say that. It doesn't bother me at all. But, I haven't used the regular yellow fiberglass handles for chopping at all really. I just like them on my maul because they can take an amazing amount of abuse.
I was going to ask that exact same question. I find that the glass fiber handles thta I have come in close combat with kicks back like a mule. And I agree on not pressing in the follow-through in the stroke. Ash wood works for me, and hickory, although, here in Europe, it is not cheap. I once by mistake made a handle from elm. It kicked back too. Ash and hickory seems to dampen the shock. Not so fiber glass and elm wood.
do the grip realy matter learned a lot from the show
If I am just chopping wood for winter firewood, do I have to worry about the shock damaging my nerves?
If you pay attention to what I said in this video, it should minimize risk. If you mean splitting, it is really the same problems and solutions.
What about techniques for cutting cord wood? And what do you think about synthetic-fiberglass handle axes? I have the Fiskars 28'' chopping axe, which cuts nicely, but I'm feeling the cumulative effect of impact, especially in my upper left back (trapezius). So I'm thinking it's my form. I'm mainly chopping cord from above at a 90 degree angle on a wood chopping block. Thanks!
Sounds like you mean splitting wood? a longer handle helps a lot. It is safer, gives you more leverage and less leaning over. Body mechanics are tricky. Almost everyone has crappy posture and body mechanics. There are solutions, but they take time and committment. Well worth it though. I recommend the basics re: Gokhale method. We use our spines too much to curl over, when it's often better to hinge at least partly at the hips. ruclips.net/video/mtQ1VqGGU74/видео.html
@@SkillCult Yes, I meant to say splitting. Thanks for the link.
hi, many thanks for all your vlogs; speaking of wood type, have ever tried olive tree? yes i know it isn't exactly a well known wood in the us, but had to ask just in case.
for handles? I was just cutting down some young trees the other day that are overgrown in the nursery. I think of it as a beautiful and fine grained wood, but not very tough. I would not even try to use it as a handle unless there was nothing better. it' very pretty and turn really nice. I'd like to turn some for small handles and such. Older wood may be tougher, but I doubt any has very good characteristics for high stress tool handles. I might be wrong, but in my limited experience messing with it, that's my impression.
Scraping is a great way to remove the rough scratches from a rasp, but i don't do it as the main technique for removing lots of material since i did seriously damage the blade on my Mora trying to scrape the blade instead of using a rasp.
Scraping like that with a Mora is a great way to ruin it. I've done it plenty and it messes them up every time, especially in dry hardwood. As far as I'm concerned, moras are a second knife for delicate tasks unless you add a secondary bevel, which sort of defeats the positive effect of the grind in the first place. They are terrible multi-use carry knives.
For a good example of excellent axe use & technique, check out Mr. Chicadee's channel here on RUclips. He is a young man whom along with his lovely bride are building their home & workshop by hand in a traditional method. They are documenting the process & uploading those videos to RUclips. He also has a blog which is worth the time to check out & read.
The videos are a sort of zen experience. No dialogue, monologue or talking at all. Just the sounds of nature & the surrounding woods along with the singing of an axe, chisel or hand saw on wood. There is one video in particular that I would recommend for axe use. It is about hewing a log. You can clearly see from his approach & attitude towards the axe that he lets the tool do the work & just sets to the task in a relaxed & efficient manner. He doesn't rush or try to put more power into his swings than is necessary. I found it relaxing just watching him work although I'm certain the muscles in his arms & back must have been thoroughly warm by the time he finished with just one log.
Yeah, I've watched some of his videos. Excellent stuff.
Be the ball Danny.
(Caddyshack reference but it's a SWING thing fo sho!)
That Council boy's axe is hard to beat.
I like it since I first swung it.
SkillCult I have three of them now lol. If I see one in with a good handle I can't resist buying it
They keep going down to under 30.00 on amazon. Just went down again this morning.
SkillCult I have several old-school local hardware stores in my area that carry Council. I pay a few dollars more, but I get to put hands on them and cherry pick. Plus helping keep small business alive👍
Great channel by the way, recent subscriber
The Axeman cometh!
chop chop
I didn't realize handle flexs....thanks
Yep it's much more than you'd think. Of course many don't flex much, but they still do at least some.
Same goes for blacksmiths who put their thumbs on the back of the hammer handle.. It will inevitably end up as a tendonitis.
Never thought of that. Hope I don't do it. One thing I forgot to mention is some people will put one hand in further up the handle. That's definitely bad news, not to mention that it messes up the mechanics of chopping.
Bacon video, machete use... ;-)
Doh!
Hi. Please Help ⛑ 📚 🙏.
I was using a long handled axe over a period of 4 working days, removing TREE STUMPS & their thick ROOT SYSTEMS on a property. On one swing of a very dense stump root, the fingers on both of my hands spread open wide and I have nearly any strength anymore in either arm, so that the weight of a skillet is even impossible to hold up, or lifting a quart of milk to return it to the shelf in the refrigerator, is also so difficult. I cannot manipulate my fingers: such as twisting a wire twistee bread-closer, or even have the ability to clamp either hand & fingers down on a couch pillow & pick it up. I can't break the sealed caps on any kind of beverage lid or mouthwash type "push-down & turn" lids. I definitely can't reach behind my head or keep my arms above my shoulders height w/o them wanting to drop 'dead-weightedly' down immediately. My hands have a sensation "numbness" as if their was fluid in them when I try and squeeze them, which I have no strength at all to even pop a plastic bubble wrap bubble.
What happened to me on that last long-handled axe chop, on the 4th day of the tree stumps & root systems removal job? Please Help. It was 3 months ago, & despite constant exercising, stretching, and apparent momements of a tiny bit of strength return to my hands to open a milk gallon lid.....it returns to its previous weaknesses..... & has continued to remain unchanged since the the final long-handled axe swing 3 + months ago. ⛑ Do you know what has happened to me. My fingers opened wide on both hands on that last axe chop, and I sure wish I knew what it was--- btw, the hospitals were addressing everything but what I went in for......its not a dislocated shoulder, break or fracture--- nor stroke, nor severed neck from spinal cord....which I already knew because I was THERE, it seems like a "Christmas Tree" network of nerves was torn behind my central shoulders (Brachial Plexus of The Sympathetic Nervous System?) and unanimously affected everything. ; Even my mouth now stutters and it "sounds like you had a stroke when you talk", but its all connected I can tell.... ; & BOTH shoulders' muscles are CONSTANTLY SPASMING, like endless motoring of muscles constantly super-visably MOVING ALL AROUND, like a bunch of living rope strands that do not tire or sleep....constant 24-7 spasming on both shoulder muscle sides (where men commonly get tattoos), not the shoulder tops--trapezoids, nor shoulder blades....although there is a distinct
"Bubble" and pressure-pain right behind the left shoulder blade which really stands out independently, of all this unified symmetrical effect. Can you Help me with any ideas or thoughts on this axe swinging injury? 🔍⛑📚 .
Thank You 🙏 .
Wow, that''s terrible. I have no idea. I would certainly consider getting someone that deals with body mechanics to take a look at you, like a chiropractor or osteopath. Most of them suck though, just like any other profession, so it's hard to find a good one. but a good one might be able to read what's going on, or differentiate between structural or something else at least and hopefully help fix it. I use gokhale method as my go to for posture work. It's more about actual good posture and how you sit, work, walk and sleep than it is about corrective exercises. I didn't know what good posture was until I found them and it's helped me a lot with back, neck and shoulder stuff. Good for decompressing the spine and putting the shoulders where they should be. ruclips.net/user/results?search_query=gokhale It might help some if it is pressure on nerves that could be relieved. I hope you figure it out. That sounds really challenging. Usually axe injuries are cuts. Best of luck finding a solution.
@@SkillCult 👍🙂. Thank 🌿 You for your long response and condsidetation(s). 🙏
I'll look into the site you sent me on POSTURE. I am familiar already with that...my Health teacher in 10th grade taught us about that. I remember, because I actually took his lesson seriously, & many times throughout my life people have asked me if I had ever served in the military, because of my posture, stances and walking. I'm a subscriber already ✔ for sure ⛑📚 .
You're right about not depending on too many health authorities too-- my hospital story above was an exact example. Whether it's a car repair, plumber, appraisal quote for any labor job, or even a visit to the mall...."Everybody" is trying to sell you something you don't need because because their lives are dependent on people showing up & them getting as much money out of you before you leave their dependency on you, view and oppprtunistic chance. I even watched HIDDEN CAMERA NEWS TEAMS on youtube of Dentists, Mental Hospitals recommending admission and a lot of repairs work on PRE-CHECKED people for the news story, who were 100% perfect (!) already.
Thank You for your Help and answers ⛑📚 very much.
You too then, learn from me....BE CAREFUL of a lot a shock blows axe swings, which your videos address....without a doubt through my example: after enough fatigue, IT IS POSSIBLE TO TEAR THE NERVES & MUSCLES BEHIND THE NECK & SHOULDERS....as did I, and have paralysis-- like a networking tree root system, that affected... e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g ... as described above.
Thank You again. Take care.
⛑🌿🕊
I do this on small logs to keep the axe head from glancing and coming at me if it glances it goes to the ground it’s not that I’m tryin to force it through I’m forced the head to stay down
my left middle finger had buildup of fluid and I ripped it, what hurt me was that I knew I couldn't chop for a while.
an axe handle is an example of a class III lever. the fulcrum is you. a longer handle would mean more leverage to deliver the blow.
There is certainly some mechanical advantage to a long handle, but how the extra energy embodied in the axe head interplays or balances with a long handle potentially absorbing more shock, I'm not sure. Probably doesn't matter a whole lot.
SkillCult I bet there's some sort of notable relation to it, no? ..especially if you tune up the handle real good . thanks for showing how to do that. it makes a lot of sense now that you explained it. now you got me wondering about all my wooden handled hammers too. thanks for posting this video. I needed the education. essential craftsman mentioned this channel in one of his videos. .
A month into using a new axe for chopping firewood my right hand is now permanently numb.
two possible solutions to that, tune the handle down and lighten up on that girp. I'd stop til you recover too.
Golfers should see this lesson, same principle applies :)
I can imagine.
All of the old lumberjacks used very thin handles. 12 fewer ounces of wood times ten thousand strokes a day can really add up.
Most of the older handles I see are much thinner than the average new handle at least. Here in America at least. In Europe, I'm not so sure.
It's also interesting to watch them chopping on old vintage films. They have a definite form and style, much like a batter's swing in pro baseball. Your information is accurate on all levels.
I was watching this chopping segement in the beginning of this over and over yesterday. Super efficient and insane effortless accuracy. ruclips.net/video/BA2GCw-2Ab0/видео.html. They use the momentum of the back swing to bring the axe back up and over with so little excess movement and effort. That's repetition for you. I can get into rhythms like that in bucking now when I'm warmed up, but not in felling because I don't do it enough.
I am sure handle wood may be a factor as well. I know most are hickory, but maybe other woods might absorb differently?
25 years ago I was swinging a framing hammer all day. In Windsor California. I would have to sit on my hand while driving to work. It was so stiff and practically numb. The heat would help. It would freak me out!
On another note. Your handle looks a little short for your size. You seem to be leaning into your work.
I think you're right on the handle species. I haven't used a lot of other woods. Locust I guess, but it's as hard as a rock, probably worse than hickory most of the time as far as density goes. I'm still figuring out handle length. My ideal all around length might be a little longer, but probably not more than 2 inches. It's also about how you lean over, not that I'm doing it best. I'm pretty comfortable with that length though.
SkillCult I am curious now what woods they use around the world. So many hard woods available to us via the Internet. I would think each continent would have a certain local wood. Unless they all import our hickory.
I do understand that perfect fit, and for different jobs.
Thanks for the videos.
Ash is very common for sure. Oaks. I think the obsession with hickory is somewhat new. Old literature will say white oak, maple, hornbeam and locust on the east coast of N. America.
SkillCult I was wondering what they are using down in any Rainforest?? I enjoy working with different woods from around the world. Some I really enjoy. Some are so easy to work with. Like Bubinga, Jatoba, Purple Heart, or Rosewood just to name a few.
how do you know when thining your handle that youre too thin? seeing your axe i would have assumed would be very fragile and scared to think it to that degree
Just experience really. Watch some of my other axe handle videos where I explain why just making it thicker does not necessarily make it stronger over all. ruclips.net/video/DrghRcqbVis/видео.htmlsi=BxKPCoYThKo3McTB
@@SkillCult thanks for the reply. I've probably seen it. Been binging alot of your content lately. Love how real you are.
I used an axe for the first time in a very long time...very rarely use one, and my left finger is killing me...it hurts so bad to bend the finger....I guess I know why now!! I pretty much did EVERYTHING wrong :(
What are the handle thickness' on the whippy one?
Watch my video on axe handle failure by design. I say in there, but I don't remember off hand.
Shock gets transferred into your hand when there's a mismatch between (~half, because that's where its center of mass is) the linear momentum of the handle at the moment of impact, and its rotational momentum around the axe head as pivot. If you imagine letting go of the axe a millisecond before impace, you want it to lodge in the wood with the end of the handle staying right where your hand left it, neither dropping down (as if you hadn't swung the axe but thrown it at the wood like a weightlifter dropping a barbell) nor swinging back up (as if you'd gripped it near its neck and chopped with your wrist).
You can tune these two variable by how "swingy" your action is, and by where along the handle's length you grip it. And yes, thinning the handle will also affect the balance of momenta a bit.
Interesting. I'll have to think on that.
Put an axe through a heavy steel eyelet, thick leather WWII Army boot. Reason, wrong technique and glanced off the tree. Ended up in the hospital. A few inches higher and would of hit an artery. If your new to using axes, pay attention to the experts, as it could truly save your life.
0.15 "you dont think this is a problem ? you re an idiot" I prefer this to the usual ´"this is only my personal opinion, I don t want to offend anyone" disclaimers.
I think I might have had someone in mind that I had been arguing with about that subject.
The trees have eyes . . .
That tree is watching me....
ha, never noticed that! Well, rest assured it won't be watching anyone. It's cut and peeled now.
6 foot stumps for mushroom propagation !
I never tried that. I've innoculated logs. I should plug a few and see what happens.
Fuckin' A.
8:28 loooool
I watched this in case of an apocalypse
I'm taking up a collection via paypal to buy 17 year old Patrick Hale a Council Boy's axe to finish the cordwood challenge. See my facebook page for details. 12 people @ 3.00 each and we're done. facebook.com/skillcult
ruclips.net/video/_xoZSj9_Wy8/видео.html
Just kicked $15 your way for this most worthy cause. Thanks for helping this young man, Steven.
Steve
Excellent!
And we're finished!
Sweet!