Thank you for this- One can clearly hear the difference in the tunings. I have often thought especially with Rossini, Donizetti, and Bellini, how much easier they would be to sing today if the orginal tunings were used. Perhaps the sound would not be as brilliant as what we are used to today at A440, but more true to the composers and so many singers today could sing them as conceived- Grazie ancora per questo bel dono! Ernesto Vasselli
It is so important, and not only for voice but for the instruments as well: all sounds less histerical and more natural. Thanks a lot for this important vid.
He first sings with the piano tuned to C=256, and not passing register, as Verdi wanted, and then with the piano tuned to A=440, indicating to the audience with his hand when the early passage occurred on E-flat.
@spectralmusic I would start with the hypothesis laid out in Kepler's "World Harmony," which was the basis for the well-tempered system developed around the time of J.S. Bach. Compare that to Kepler's earlier hypothesis in the "Mysterium Cosmographicum." As another defender of Kepler, Albert Einstein, would say: "God doesn't play dice!" I.e., there is right and wrong with respect to planetary orbits and musical tuning; it's not arbitrary. But let's keep refining our hypotheses.
Thank you sooooooo much for this!! It's so obvious! Do you have the rest of that video? Is that Tebaldi in the background sitting? Was that a conference of singers supporting this? Thanks in advance 😊
I'm totally on board with tuning to the pitch desired by the composer. That being said, each singer's voice 'turns' ('girare' in Italian) at a different place. Cappuccilli's 'secondo passaggio' lies in between the two Ebs represented here (one at A=432 Hz, the other at 440). Other baritones 'turn' higher or even lower than this. So, they would experience it completely differently. Verdi may have had a particular singer in mind; but I'm not sure. Generally, the high tuning of today takes a toll on singer's voices and I do recommend going back, especially when composers were specific about it. But the idea that Verdi wanted a certain color on one note versus another bc of the voice turning seems a bit far-fetched. Voices are not like stringed instruments. They don't come in only 4 main types, they exist within a distribution. Just my two cents.
Could the one who posted this video add some subtitles? I don´t understand what he says, and therefore I don't know which one is the low and which is the high. Thanks
Piero Cappuccilli is a opera super star,, He can do that register shift and still sound pretty good,, But with Choirs with less trained singers it is a complete different story.. 440Hz sucks.. Some people in the choir with less transition skills will "pull chest" on certain passaggio notes and start feeling a little voice fatigue over a couple of songs.. A much less skilled singer (within the vocal fachs as Cappuccilli) would pull chest on D#4 (not to bad), really pull chest on E4 (very bad), or resort to falsetto on the E4 note (safe but tonally weak)..Its more natural for that singer (i think its dramatic baritone) to resort to falsetto on the next note F4 where the falsetto starts getting a little stronger but still with the airy falsetto color.. At 432Hz a singer of that fach that is not comftable singing in head resonance can after a thourough warm up and some training sing that E4 note by pushing his mid register a little up. At 440Hz its game over for that singer.. He will pull chest, strain and his loose voice.. Or sing flat on the E4 note which sound terrible and what a rock singer I knew (deep baritone voice with no headvoice capacity) would do on that E4 note.. I have the same vocal fach as that singer and its the E4 in a rock and pop setting that kills me... I have to concentrate and do the register shift.. Totally annoying.. And overall the resonance of 440Hz is just really unntaural for my voice.. And many others it seems.. My present leadsinger in the band (lighter baritone) has some issues on the F4 note.. So we transposed the songs so he stays on E4 instead of F4. THis is my own theory... (no ways of proving it) The region from 437Hz to 445Hz places the passaggios at a truely difficult place, a gradual transition happens from 435Hz to 442Hz. When I tune up to 448Hz there is less confusion,, its damn high but I instinctly now that the E4 note (in 448Hz tuning) has to be sung in head resonance.. Interstingly if I move down 100 cents from 448Hz i get down to Händels and Mozarts tuning pich (A4=~423Hz) allthough I do not know wheter they tuned in meantone, equal temp, or other "exotic"tunings.. Also John shores tuning fork for A back in the 1700s was at 423.5Hz.. What does this tell me.. That the tuning should probably lie between the old and dark 423.5Hz pitch or the bright and cheerfull 435Hz to be within the natural resonance for the human voice singing in the 12-TET scale. Below 421Hz you start getting into the transition zone again and hit the weird resonance class of modern 440Hz tuning when you get down to 415.3Hz (modern G#4).... Even the lowest calibration on modern pedal tuners (436Hz) sound more natural to my ears and has less throat tension than 440Hz...
That doesn't make any sense I'm afraid. The "432" means 432 cycles per SECOND. And the length of the second is ENTIRELY ARBITRARY. If the second were a different (arbitrary) length of time, the number would be different. Geez Louise...
As i understand, the length of a second of time was divided from the speed of the revolution of the earth in one day. So, even that duration comes from nature, not arbitrarily chosen.
If we were true to the composers we'd put them on as quickly as possible and with the singers only just knowing their pieces, as they would have just been composed. I don't think the composers really minded too much what happened with their music. If you listen to Rossini much you'll see that a lot of it isn't even his, it's Mozart's instead. Or even if it is his it might be stolen from another opera. They were all interested in money more than musical fulfillment.
Thank you for this- One can clearly hear the difference in the tunings. I have often thought especially with Rossini, Donizetti, and Bellini, how much easier they would be to sing today if the orginal tunings were used. Perhaps the sound would not be as brilliant as what we are used to today at A440, but more true to the composers and so many singers today could sing them as conceived- Grazie ancora per questo bel dono! Ernesto Vasselli
It is so important, and not only for voice but for the instruments as well: all sounds less histerical and more natural. Thanks a lot for this important vid.
He first sings with the piano tuned to C=256, and not passing register, as Verdi wanted, and then with the piano tuned to A=440, indicating to the audience with his hand when the early passage occurred on E-flat.
very interesting clip! thanks for posting.
@spectralmusic I would start with the hypothesis laid out in Kepler's "World Harmony," which was the basis for the well-tempered system developed around the time of J.S. Bach. Compare that to Kepler's earlier hypothesis in the "Mysterium Cosmographicum."
As another defender of Kepler, Albert Einstein, would say: "God doesn't play dice!" I.e., there is right and wrong with respect to planetary orbits and musical tuning; it's not arbitrary. But let's keep refining our hypotheses.
@wlymexico the first is the low and the second is the high.
Thank you sooooooo much for this!! It's so obvious! Do you have the rest of that video? Is that Tebaldi in the background sitting? Was that a conference of singers supporting this? Thanks in advance 😊
I'm totally on board with tuning to the pitch desired by the composer.
That being said, each singer's voice 'turns' ('girare' in Italian) at a different place. Cappuccilli's 'secondo passaggio' lies in between the two Ebs represented here (one at A=432 Hz, the other at 440). Other baritones 'turn' higher or even lower than this. So, they would experience it completely differently. Verdi may have had a particular singer in mind; but I'm not sure.
Generally, the high tuning of today takes a toll on singer's voices and I do recommend going back, especially when composers were specific about it. But the idea that Verdi wanted a certain color on one note versus another bc of the voice turning seems a bit far-fetched. Voices are not like stringed instruments. They don't come in only 4 main types, they exist within a distribution. Just my two cents.
@LAROUCHEpunktSE. Einstein mentioned the famous sentence in relation to some of the findings in quantum physics and not about Kepler tuning or music.
@spectralmusic hahaha have you seen 'the cosmic 432' (on youtube)? :P
Could the one who posted this video add some subtitles? I don´t understand what he says, and therefore I don't know which one is the low and which is the high. Thanks
Piero Cappuccilli is a opera super star,, He can do that register shift and still sound pretty good,, But with Choirs with less trained singers it is a complete different story.. 440Hz sucks.. Some people in the choir with less transition skills will "pull chest" on certain passaggio notes and start feeling a little voice fatigue over a couple of songs..
A much less skilled singer (within the vocal fachs as Cappuccilli) would pull chest on D#4 (not to bad), really pull chest on E4 (very bad), or resort to falsetto on the E4 note (safe but tonally weak)..Its more natural for that singer (i think its dramatic baritone) to resort to falsetto on the next note F4 where the falsetto starts getting a little stronger but still with the airy falsetto color..
At 432Hz a singer of that fach that is not comftable singing in head resonance can after a thourough warm up and some training sing that E4 note by pushing his mid register a little up. At 440Hz its game over for that singer.. He will pull chest, strain and his loose voice..
Or sing flat on the E4 note which sound terrible and what a rock singer I knew (deep baritone voice with no headvoice capacity) would do on that E4 note..
I have the same vocal fach as that singer and its the E4 in a rock and pop setting that kills me... I have to concentrate and do the register shift.. Totally annoying.. And overall the resonance of 440Hz is just really unntaural for my voice.. And many others it seems.. My present leadsinger in the band (lighter baritone) has some issues on the F4 note.. So we transposed the songs so he stays on E4 instead of F4.
THis is my own theory... (no ways of proving it)
The region from 437Hz to 445Hz places the passaggios at a truely difficult place, a gradual transition happens from 435Hz to 442Hz. When I tune up to 448Hz there is less confusion,, its damn high but I instinctly now that the E4 note (in 448Hz tuning) has to be sung in head resonance.. Interstingly if I move down 100 cents from 448Hz i get down to Händels and Mozarts tuning pich (A4=~423Hz) allthough I do not know wheter they tuned in meantone, equal temp, or other "exotic"tunings..
Also John shores tuning fork for A back in the 1700s was at 423.5Hz.. What does this tell me.. That the tuning should probably lie between the old and dark 423.5Hz pitch or the bright and cheerfull 435Hz to be within the natural resonance for the human voice singing in the 12-TET scale.
Below 421Hz you start getting into the transition zone again and hit the weird resonance class of modern 440Hz tuning when you get down to 415.3Hz (modern G#4)....
Even the lowest calibration on modern pedal tuners (436Hz) sound more natural to my ears and has less throat tension than 440Hz...
@spectralmusic 432 and 440 are not half a tone apart. Scam
No, not a full half step. But it matters! The color of the voice changes, the tessitura is higher. It matters.
That doesn't make any sense I'm afraid. The "432" means 432 cycles per SECOND. And the length of the second is ENTIRELY ARBITRARY. If the second were a different (arbitrary) length of time, the number would be different. Geez Louise...
As i understand, the length of a second of time was divided from the speed of the revolution of the earth in one day. So, even that duration comes from nature, not arbitrarily chosen.
If we were true to the composers we'd put them on as quickly as possible and with the singers only just knowing their pieces, as they would have just been composed.
I don't think the composers really minded too much what happened with their music. If you listen to Rossini much you'll see that a lot of it isn't even his, it's Mozart's instead. Or even if it is his it might be stolen from another opera.
They were all interested in money more than musical fulfillment.